Entertainment
Tracii Guns on Sound, Survival, and Staying Power
In this episode of 'Chewing the Gristle,' host Greg Cox welcomes rock legend Tracii Guns for an engaging conversation about music, survival, and the enduring passion for creativity. They sha...
Tracii Guns on Sound, Survival, and Staying Power
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Interactive Transcript
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Ladies and gentlemen, can you believe it? It's already time for season 6 of chewing the
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gristle with yours truly, Greg Cox, so many delightful conversations to look forward to.
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We'll talk about music, yes, sure. But you know what else we're going to talk about?
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Anything that comes to mind, so stay tuned, we got some good ones for you.
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Chewing the Gristle, season 6.
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Another exciting addition of chewing the gristle is now at hand with rock and roll,
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Titan, Tracy guns, you know from LA guns, you know them as a rock savage,
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wielding the guitar with great aplomb, doing things to a thereman that many wouldn't
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do to a farm animal. Ladies and gentlemen, we had a great talk, dig it.
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Tracy guns this week on chewing the gristle.
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Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, we have gathered around the gristle fire once again
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for an installment of chewing the gristle. We have the mighty rock legend, Tracy guns in the house
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today and we're looking forward to a convivial conversation, which will lead any which way we
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wanted to go. Tracy, how the hell are you? What's happening?
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I'm good. You know, I'm at the age where there's always this nearby.
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Yes. You know, you and I are both 1966, six threes.
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That's right. And you know, life is good, right?
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It is, but isn't it just bizarre? I mean, I'd like to think I've gotten my money's worth.
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It's like, you know, I don't think about what, you know, I wish I would have done this.
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It's like, you know, I've had I've had a pretty good run. I've done some crazy things in my time
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and so on and so forth, but you find yourself looking around at someone, but that person looks old
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and you realize, oh, no, we're probably the same age. So, matter of fact, they're probably younger
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than I. Yeah. Now, that's the the benefit of the rock and roll, you know, is we'll never believe
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that we're older than 26 years old and hopefully it shows, right? Exactly. Well, I was just thinking
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about that as a fact that I remember distinctly getting to be about 27 and 28 and feeling ancient
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because I was hitting it so hard. You know what I mean? And you're like, and then God forbid you'd
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look at people our age now. I think like, why are they even alive? You know what I mean?
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And then you realize, oh, no, you got a long way to go. But what's interesting is that, you know,
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the average person, you know, really is into music. Like music is foundational for them up until
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about that age. And then they all go on and do their professional lives. They've got families and
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so on and so forth. And music isn't important to anymore, but not for us. We carry the banner going
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forward like with the same intensity and wondering, where do my buddies go? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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No, that's true. You know, it's when I was 27, I became extremely agoraphobic and I didn't
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leave the house for like 14 months. Yeah, I was terrified to go to the bank to stand in line at Taco Bell.
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You know, and I would lay in bed and just think, well, this is it. You know, I reached the end.
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You know, I'm an old man. And and then all of a sudden, I don't know what change. I think I started
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eating protein or something and things got better. But, yeah, I mean, 27, 28 were terrible years for me.
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You know, really bad. And, you know, the bank account was dwindling. And, you know, I lived in
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some stupid, ridiculous house and I would just look around and go, this is it. It's like, you know,
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this where it ends and but the cool thing was I had a there was no digital technology yet, right?
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So that was like, I don't know, 92 or 99. And so all I did is I had this little task ham cassette
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recorder and I just would like write shit. Yeah, that's all I fucking did. And turned into like
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stuff later. You know, I mean, like, like, what do I do on that crappy tape machine? Like, you know,
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but yeah, it's weird, right? But, you know, that just goes to show. It's like even when,
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you know, life does its thing, which it always does, there's always, you know, the playing, the
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creating, the just sitting around playing guitar, that shit never gets old. And that's when you have
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that, that's like the greatest gift you can be given because you'll never, I mean, most people
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don't have something like that. They don't, you know, and, you know, when you go to therapy,
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and because I, you know, besides myself, I know a lot of other people that have gone through
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some life crisis. And, you know, the one thing that therapists always encourage is to have
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find the thing that does make you mentally focus on something you enjoy. And, you know, I was in
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Denmark for five years. And, which is not a different culture, you know, where people aren't
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trying to collect cars. And, and if they do, it's on a, it's one car, and they will make that car
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mint, you know what I mean? So, like, the competition thing doesn't really
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exist over there the way it does here. Like, you know, we want everything, you know, it's like,
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I want to strad in an Italian, a super strat. And I got to have a double neck and a Marshall and
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a Fender. And I got to have to, and I got, and I got, and I got to. So that being said, you know,
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all those people, they go all the way through college, you know, and I mean, they, they learn
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grades and crafts and they learn about music. And they learn the basic
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fit that makes you happy in life. And they lead a happy life, you know, for some reason,
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we didn't get the rulebook. And, you know, where we grew up, it was like, hey, here's the keys
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of the country go. Right. Like, go get yours, man. You know, kind of a thing. And I mean, you know,
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guys like you and I are obviously very lucky that that we've been able to make any living
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out of, out of music because it's, it's an impossible thing to do. Well, it's statistically. I mean,
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it's, you know, when we think about the many things that you need to do, especially, you know,
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being able to do it this long, I mean, yeah, it's not, you know, it's, you know, before we forget,
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you know, people watching this, you and I are playing together at the basement east on August 27th.
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It's correct. Yes. You know, and, you know, I'm so looking forward to that show.
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Oh, it's going to be a blast. Thanks so much for having us. It's going to be a blast.
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You know, and which leads to the other thing about fucked this business is because
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Ellen guns with a headlining band. We call all the shots, but we can't pick our support acts.
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It's so fucked up. That's insane. You know, because people are like, yeah, but, you know, we got
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these guys of you know, and this and it's like, you know, if you want all the money, then, you
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know, you got to let us do this. It's like, you don't want all the money, but I want all my friends
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to have all the money too. Right. You know, let's fucking go and just every step of the way.
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And I didn't, we weren't always in this position, you know, where, where we kind of called the
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shots and did our own stuff, you know, for like 25 years, we weren't like that. And now we are.
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And once again, we hit another wall. So getting you to play with us has been the joy of my year.
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Well, thank you. It's going to be a blast. Yeah, it's going to be great. I'm just wanting to know,
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I'm really happy about it. Well, thanks for making it happen. I did. We did. Yeah.
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Let's talk a little bit about how you got started. What was, you know, it's since we're the same
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age. I'm curious if you had older siblings that were in the music or, or if you got the discovery
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yourself or what happened. Well, for me, I was sitting in the back of my mom's boyfriend. He had
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like a little 912. And I was a little tiny guy when I was five or six and I would just lay down
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back there. He had stereo speakers, right? And a lot of love came on the first time I ever heard
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it my life. And I heard the Theraman break down. And I poked my head up. What the hell's this?
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Right. Yeah. And my mom said, Oh, that's, you know, that's a Led Zeppelin. And that's the guitar.
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And I'm like, I'm like, okay, so I could never make, you know, I got a guitar instantly, you know.
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And I couldn't make it do the Theraman thing. So I didn't know, I didn't know what it was. So I kept
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beating on the guitar trying to get those sounds. And as for me, it's always been about sounds,
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you know what I mean? And kind of learning the notes and the parts and all this stuff is always
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secondary. But having to learn how to play the guitar along the way, you know. So I've really
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attracted to when somebody does something off that works, you know what I mean? Something that's
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extraordinary. Like, you know, one thing about you that blows my mind is like, you know, you play
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things so well, you know, for lack of a better expression, like you really play well, you know,
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you're like, well, check this out. And then this happens. And then if you do this, and this happens,
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and then it's all copacetic, and this is grand. Me, you know, I try to learn fucking, you know,
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alphabet. And it's like, I can't do it. You know, I just can't do it. My ears do not go melodically,
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which is weird because you see me playing. You think, this guy, wow, you're like, fuck my god,
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Jesus, fucking Christ. But it's all just whittily, diddily making noise and knowing there's a
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major scale and a minor scale and somewhere in between or five other places you can go and playing
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for, you know, 50 years. Yeah, I'm doing it, but it's not, I'm not fantastic. Like you are, you know,
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you're just like, I sit there and I watch you, I just go, yeah, man, oh, fuck yeah, I like that's
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how you do it. Well, my friends, you know, my guitar player friends, they're heroes, man, like,
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Alex Skolmakenshit, like, you can do all that shit. You know what I mean? Like, and me, I go up
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there with a Thera Man and people go, yeah, so it's good enough, right? It's like kind of the key
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thing. But as far as influences go, so aligned with yours, you know, I think we're pretty close,
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you know, the Hendrix and the Page that had the huge impact, you know, and then Tony I only,
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and then really, I guess, Carrie Moore, Eddie Van Aillen, or Annie Rhodes, you know, and those are
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my formative kind of, I'm going to be a guitar hero thing. So I tried to emulate all that,
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and then exactly probably what you did is once I got kind of over that started going backwards,
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you know, and listening to guys that really were writing the manuscript for what the guitar heroes
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did. And I think that's another reason I really dig listening to you play because you'll just throw
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some Jeff Beck thing in the middle of nowhere. And I'm like, what do you did?
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I know that part or Joe Walls or anything. I'm just like, I'm like, fuck yeah.
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I remember when my brother brought home that's so what record, Joe Walls, so what? That's like 74 or
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something. Yeah. And but we had those James game records and all that, yeah, all that stuff. But,
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you know, and as you have, you know, you progressed over the years, what are the things that have,
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like you've discovered that were kind of happening at the same time as the other music you were into?
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But for whatever reason, you weren't hip to it just because you didn't have friends into it or you
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just never heard it. What were some discoveries you've made about some stuff that was old that you
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just like, I can't believe I've never heard this before. We robbed rock, right? Because
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always dug the yardbirds, you know what I mean? Like I always dug them. But I didn't realize
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what an impact they had on so many other bands across the world across that time. And one of the
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things that is mind blowing is mid 60s in Cambodia. They had a rock scene with recording technology
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and authentic, you know, stuff that really was on par with the Beatles and the Stones and the Sonics
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and all this stuff. And people just don't know because, you know, during Vietnam, you know,
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we just went in there and Napalm, the hell out of Cambodia and erased all this history, this music
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history that is, you know, I'm going to eyeball really quick. I know it's all fine, but there's a
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really good record and it goes to the soundtrack of a documentary. It's called I Won't Forget You.
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And it has like, you know, 30 tracks on it that were saved from these studios and most of the
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recording studios that were in the radio stations. So the bands could go in and perform live
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on the radio and they recorded them and then they would make the records out of those recordings.
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Right. You know, so these are things I've discovered along the way. You know, because I'm very
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focused on rock and roll. I always really have been, you know, but I love Anya, you know, because
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melodically, you know, it's a whole garden of, you know, Melancholy Riffage, you know, done on
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some weird organ thing that really appeals to me, you know, and her voice is like an angel, you know.
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So, but that gets more into that Randy Rhodes territory of like, how do you get inspired to be,
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you know, studos, what are they called that, Neil classical without just listening to
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Sagovia all the fucking time. It's like, I did the Sagovia thing for a while. I guess it's more
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and the ultimate goal for me is to write original sounding songs, music musically. Because the
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melody guns, I always write all the music first, the arrangements done, then Phil gets it and he
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wants to kill me and then he comes up with the goods. Right. You know, so like, it's just always been,
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you know, an art project for me, it really has. And so talk a little bit about the progression of
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that band and how it's changed over the years and different approaches and just kind of weathering
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the onslaught of the music business in general. Well, I think it's number one, it's dumb luck.
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Right. It's just fucking dumb luck because, you know, people don't really stay together that long
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in marriages and bands and business and things like that. But, you know, I started the band when I was
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in high school, you know, and we played a kind of scorpion style heavy metal probably with a little
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Jimmy Page thrown in. Right. That's what was popular around 82, 83. And then through a series of,
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you know, member changes and friends going off to be professionals and other businesses and stuff
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like that, I ended up with Axel Rose singing in LA Gums, who was Izzy's best friend, you know,
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Izzy. Right. And he was in LA Gums and then we changed the name to Gums and Rose. We don't need to
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go down that long road. And then we had Gums and Rose's and then we got really popular really fast.
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And I was like, Oh, you know, all right, here we are. But I don't want to hang out and die with drug
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addicts. So now, you know, how am I going to get out of this? And so I just read it LA Gums
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as kind of like a motley crew meets the Rolling Stones ideology. Like, okay, I like five piece bands,
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even though I want to play alone, the five piece band, the Arosmith, the Arbards,
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kind of thing. Yeah, just, just, yes, Stones. It felt like the right thing for LA Gums to be,
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you know, it felt like, like, you know, every guitar hero band is just a guy by himself. And I
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thought, well, if I can shred and have some other guy play all the stuff that's meaningful,
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and I can just stole all night. That's what I want to do. Because I notice, you know,
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anytime I'm in a band where it's a three piece band, you know, the bottom drop sound if I stop
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playing rhythm, you know what I mean, unless we have a keyboard, it's like you do or, you know,
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something like that. But, and that's cool. It's a vibe and I'm into it. I mean, I'm probably
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going to start another band tomorrow where it's mean two people and party on and all that stuff.
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But on a professional level, the LA Gums formula just works. And what I mean is, you know,
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we've got enough guys playing instruments to be very musical and very diverse. And which means I
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can write whatever I want. And then as long as Phil singing, we sound like LA Gums. It's actually
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distinctive British American crossover thing that he is, that it gives me the freedom. And that's
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all I give you shit about. I just want musical freedom. I don't, you know, the fact that, that,
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you know, all the bills are paid and we make bucks and like, all that shit, that's wonderful.
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But I'd still be doing exactly the same fucking thing if we didn't, you know, I really,
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I want to be Jimmy Page, man. You know, I want to do it. And that keeps me going. Yeah,
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keeps me excited. I was the, the relationship with Phil. I mean, maintaining that over the years,
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I'm sure it took some work. And because it's hard enough, I mean, I've always had three piece bands
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because I can only usually handle two other musicians. And he given time and now that one's my son,
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it's that much easier. So, man, you know, and you got to get a prop man Dylan,
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he's definitely the second coming of Jesus monomer. Yeah, I watch you with that. He does something
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like, I'm like, damn man, you just sticks it in the kick and it's over. Yeah, my God.
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But with Phil, and you'll find this that this has happened to us all through junior high school,
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high school adult living. And this other people that fuck up great relationships, right?
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Like, you know, you can, you can be cruising along and having your best buddy that you're getting
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stoned with in high school. And then some other dude will say, hey, your best friend said this about
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you, right? You know, this kind of, you know, gossip, you know, poisonous, toxic people that are
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looking for attention and it gets in between and that's happened a bunch of times with us with Phil.
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You know, managers have gotten in between us. Band members have gotten in between us, you know.
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And finally, we took a break. I took a break for 12 years. And when it was time to do it again,
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I took over the whole thing. And the problem earlier is I was 10 years younger than the next guy
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in the band, even though it was my band. So I was just respecting all these opinions and people and
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like, yeah, I wasn't going to backtalk, you know, and then it'd get to a point where I wouldn't
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backtalk. Then the day would come where I go, get the fuck out of my life. You know, I get it.
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You know, all your wisdom did fucking nothing for me. You know what I mean? Right. So, so when we got
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back together in about 2017, I just started cleaning house, you know, and I mean like, you know,
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I wanted this to be the thing that we do and be successful at it and really recognized
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where the toxicity was, you know, and I mean, eliminated that.
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Did one show we got a fucking really nice record deal with Frontiers. And that was the beginning.
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And then, you know, we had a guy in there that was helping out that ended up being just like all
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the other guys that he talked shit about, you know, a manager type, right? Oh, let's go to the
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rip and you know, obviously, yeah, the road, the guy ends up ripping you off. Same start. So,
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the two key ingredients is the five band members in the band were tight. It's a family now.
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You know, we're all adult enough. Nobody's trying to get anything over on anybody.
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No, no, where to genders or what? Right. You know, everybody's comfortable in their livelihood,
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especially Phil, you know, Phil's in a great place and he's he's going to be 69 in January.
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You know, so he's 10 years on us. Yeah, he's got 10 years on us. And he's singing like a mother
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fucker. And so I think that we just really appreciate it. And we're having a really good time,
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which translates into the crowd or audience and they're having a good time, things to grow.
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And we just, you know, we don't really have goals to speak of, you know, it's more about
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where happy where we are. Right. And it's just maintaining it now. That's the thing, and it just,
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you just want to keep going. Just want to keep going. Don't want to piss anybody off. You know,
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save your drama for the llama. You know, it's fucking that shit. It's boring.
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So, gear wise, how's your stage stuff changed over the years? Are you constantly tweaking and messing
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around or have you stayed pretty consistent when it comes to the battle, the battle array?
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Right. It's crazy. You know, my own guitar tech can't, can't hold. He's the thing. He goes, he goes,
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he goes, he keeps changing stuff, but you keep getting the same sound. Right. And that was a big
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epiphany for me. And that was around, I don't know, like 1989, I guess. And at that point,
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I was using JSTM 800 and 100 Watts, you know, vertical input, the right amps, right.
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A very basic setup with the stereo chorus, you know, using two heads and four cabinets at the time,
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we're playing big places. And a wall, wall, and an EQ and kind of basic, but the struggle for me was
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always the delays, right. Going to the front end of amps and right. Not sounding lush enough. So,
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I kind of always did like a short one repeat delay kind of thing. And then a big stereo delay.
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That was just fucking out of control because I couldn't make it sound smooth no matter what I try to do.
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So that was my sound for a long time. And I would collect amps, you know, because we love amps.
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But all the way through. And then the various bands I played through, I would, you know, if the drummer
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wasn't extremely loud, I would play out of like some cool like booted combos, you know, stuff like
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real boutiquey kind of stuff. And then I always use the yellow SD1 pedal. That's always been my drive belt.
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And I could basically get the same, you know, or it felt mushy enough where I was comfortable. That's
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that's what I go for is like, oh, fuck yeah. You know, I says, go sound butt. In 2016, 2017,
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more came to my attention. They made these little pedals. And they made these little amplifier,
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like pre-amplifier pedals. I'm like, well, how does that work? You know, and there was a time I
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did use like a rock tron chameleon pre-amplifier, like that heavy duty stuff, you know, like, like,
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fuck me. I have enough stuff. Yeah, like, what a fuck a waste of energy. But I mean, it sounded great,
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you know, but, but whatever. But there's little things came out. And I looked at this pedal board
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together with like 24 pedals on it, you know, because they were so little, they will fuck
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why not? Does it have everything on there? And I, at that point, I, the amps that I had
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were the newer 800s that had effects loop, you know, returns. So I can have these more pre-amps,
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you know, like a fender deluxe and a Marshall 900 and all this stuff and run them right into
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the delays and everything like that and like the distortions before it and go right into the
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power sections of the amps. And that was like striking gold for me. It was like, one, all my delays
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are luscious. Everything sounds massive. It's quiet, you know, it's not this, this, this
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reds nest of noise, you know, because it pretty much was for the first 30 years. I was like, oh,
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yeah, I'm sure my guitar after the rig would be, yeah. And so then in 2018, when I was at the height
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of my stoner dumb, you know, just, you know, this weed was my life. I was like, man, life's good
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all the time. So this company called Head Rush came out. I'm like, Head Rush. But that's got me written
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all over it. Right? And I looked at what it was. It is this touchscreen iPad thing with all the
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pedals and amps in it. I'm like, I'm like, oh, wow. So I can get rid of these 24 little pedals,
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get this one pedal and everything's in there with a noise suppressor. Not a noise gate,
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but a noise suppressor, which actually identifies your shitty signal and is rid of that kind of thing.
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So I called this guy Brian Dabbit. I found him on Facebook. He was the head and our guy for Head Rush.
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And I'm like, Hey, man, is this thing any good? He's like, I don't know. I'll say anyone. I'm like,
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all right. I guess this thing, I dial it in and what's the first thing I go for? JCM 800.
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Right? JCM 800, you know, stereo delay, chorus, stereo, blah blah blah. And they didn't have a yellow
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pedal. They had a tube speaker. Like, yeah, man, I'm fucking putting it plugged into my hands. I'm like,
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there it is. That's it. That's all I require in my life is this. And this is for live, you know,
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because live, you know, live is where it's at. I've never recorded my live rig in a studio record.
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Oh, no, Ken. Yeah, which is like, you know, that's not the anti van Halenway. He's like,
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he's like, Hey, my shit sounds good. Put mics in front of it. I'm going. But it's definitely the
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Jimmy Pageway, right? It's like, it's like, okay, these are the marshals I use live. And then you
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don't know what I use in the studio. That's like that mistake. But I really, I have, I've tried
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putting analog rigs together for live ever since the head rush. And it gets close. It's not as powerful.
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It's not as controllable. And it's not as out of control as I want it to get like, you know,
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with the head rush, I can make it get really out of control. You know, we're feedback on every
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front, you know, every string, you know, just the right kind of stuff. So that being said,
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you know, I'm really a vintage guy with a really modern piece of gear that gets me what I want
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live. Yeah, it does the thing. But in the studio, you know, here, like, like you, you know, I think I
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have every fender and every Marshall and like, and uh, ampeg stood, silver tones did. I'm building
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amps now. I'm going to try to sell people 50 watt Marshalls for two grand, you know, the really
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of 78 JMPs. Because they're through the roof. Nobody makes a good one. And they take me about two days
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to build from scratch, you know, so they're the best amp for rock and roll guys because you can
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really do the small faces thing. You can do the rainy roads thing. You can do the Jimmy Page thing.
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And 50 watts these days is plenty. Yeah. You know, it's it's it's it's plenty.
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Anything more than 50 watts you're getting the stink guy from everyone.
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Oh, yeah. Well, so wait, now, here's a luxury that you have that I didn't have till about a month ago.
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You're up there. You don't have some guy wailing through stage monitors, locally, right?
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So Phil got in here monitors for himself last month. And so now his monitors on stage are like
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a good level where I can hear what he's singing. Right. But I can hear my guitar.
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Oh, there you go. I can fucking hear it. Yeah. If I play out of a deluxe, I can hear it. Right.
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You know, so the whole reason for all those hundred watt amps, all those years is I couldn't hear.
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Right. You know, when you know, because he sings high, you know, and he's screaming.
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And as soon as he put those on and we did that gig that night, I walked to my pedal board and I turned
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the master down. And I was like, this is fucking awesome. And and so that you know, talking about
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learning things way later. Right. Right. That's the thing. So now he's kind of allowed me to
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kind of look at my rig and go, I don't know, you know, I can do other things now too. You know,
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if I want to play, like I said, a deluxe on stage for one song because it's the right sound for
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the song. I can certainly do that now. You know, and and you know, I love all of it. And I love all
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this. Yeah. I thought all that shit gear is fun. It never, it never gets old. Yeah, it doesn't,
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man. You know, I have four echoplexes. I had three. And I used them till the end. Right. Like,
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you know, like they got to the end. And my friend Eric, who owns K-Man music here,
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always knows that I'm on the alert because those are my, that's, I use those. And he didn't
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tell me he had an echoplex on this. It was about two or three months ago, but I saw it on the
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Instagram and I lost my shit because I was definitely sure somebody had already bought it.
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You know, and I, and Eric, he told me about the heck of, I'm sorry, I forgot, man. You know, I go,
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I go, let me know when another one comes in. And he goes, he goes, no, I still have this one.
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I'm like, does it work? He goes, yeah, that works. I'm like, I'm not fucking without their soul fast.
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Got that thing. And they're expensive, man. I think I paid like 1400 bucks for it.
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But it's the one, you know, and it works in its contour and it's doing the thing, you know.
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We interrupt this regularly scheduled, gristle-infested conversation to give a special shout out to
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our friends at Fishman Transducers, makers of the Greg Cawk signature, fluent, gristle-tone pickup set.
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Can you dig that? And our friends at Wildwood guitars of Louisville, Colorado,
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bringing the heat and the shadow of the Rocky Mountains.
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So back in the day, like when, you know, Kris Jibby P. Joyce had the two. And you had the one for
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all the crazy, Theorem and stuff. I'm emerging. And then the other one was just a quick slapback.
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That's it. And I'm wondering, you know, especially, you know, as he got more medicated,
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it's like, but as we all know, when you crank those amps, as you said, when you're going to the front end
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of them, you got to be careful. You can barely have the amount of effect on in order for it not to
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get all saturated and shitty. So you must have just had it barely on. And then, you know, years later,
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it seemed like he would maybe it would be a little bit more wash, you know what I mean? But
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how did you deal with it back in the day? You just went through the front end and you would just
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have to bring the amount of effect way the fuck down so it wouldn't be all distorted.
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I had an epiphany like the last few weeks. You know, I used to use a DD3.
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A boss. Yeah, that's right. I've used one for since the beginning.
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Why? I don't have anything like that. I don't know why. I have everything, but I don't have
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a fucking DD3. So Carlos Cabazzo's Cabazo jammed with us a couple weeks ago. And he had a little
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pedal board with a tube screamer and a DD3 on it and a high in a SLO. Sold on it. Yeah.
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And I'm like, you run into the front and he goes, yeah, why? I'm like, okay, that's what I used to do.
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Right. Right. So he's playing. I think that's the only delay you can do that with. It pretty much works.
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Yeah. Like like like fuck. Okay. And you know, so Donna's way got way more gain than I am.
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Way more gain. Yeah. And so, you know, so, you know, it always works somehow for me in the past.
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I don't remember because I'm not there right now, but, but I did use two DD3s, you know, one for the
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big stereo thing and one for the single for the single slap. Yeah. Whatever. But page thing,
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and you'll agree with me on this. I know you will. Those delays had to work. So,
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when he talks about, you know, getting the amps just to the edge of the breakup point,
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he wasn't kidding. And some of those bootlegs, he didn't even get to the edge of breakup, right?
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Like, you know, he's just clanking away. Yeah. You know, doing his thing. And I'm definitely
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positive, you know, that he wanted to be able to play the clean stuff really nice. And so,
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I think he, I think he, he, he prioritized more of a clean sound live and getting it just
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distorted because he wasn't even using the tone vendor anymore. Right.
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He got rolling, you know, kind of, kind of gave up on fuzz and all that stuff. But I noticed,
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when I talked to a lot of the old engineers, the guys, a lot of what being you heard was they were
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running ecoplexes and space echoes at the front of house. You know, so I got guitars,
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on vocals and stuff like that. Like I wondered the same thing like live at leads.
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You know, yeah. Yeah. They had to be doing that from the front of house. And those engineers back
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then, they went to school. They weren't like you. They weren't the guy down at Joe's bar. And I could
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do sound. Like those guys back then, like, you know, they knew how everything worked and they had
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a patch thing and, you know, all this archaic dinosaur equipment. And that shit sounds great.
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It's really interesting when you listen to the live James gang and a lot of the deaf
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one boot legs around 71 is 75. Plants definitely singing through a space echo because
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the delay has reverb on it. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and it took me a long time to figure that out.
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Like, where's that reverb coming from? Because it wasn't the room, you know, it wasn't like a very
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sparkly kind of like what do they call it now? What are the kids call it? They call it a,
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it's like, it's like two higher octaves of reverbs. Like shimmer.
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Shimmer. Yeah, there you go. Like there's some shimmer on like what plant would do a big
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thing. And then the delay would repeat over and over. You can hear this kind of shimmer reverb
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in there. Like it was dirty, cool high-end dead. It's just like, man, it's so magical.
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Like so, where when you listen to those old boot legs is that, you know, like from
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72 or 73, that's when Paige's live to him was probably the best. And like when you listen to
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like well, that, you know, how the West was won. Yeah. I know what was it? Kevin Shirley went in
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and spit-shine that shit up that or. But what you were saying about when he turns that thing down,
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same with song or made the same, he turns that guitar down. It's like the greatest clean sound.
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And then he turns it up and that shit is is gaining. Yeah. But yet still has clarity. And then I
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heard something about how he switched to KT, whatever tubes in his marshals in 75. And so it was
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a little cleaner and a little clankier. Yeah, because I was just going to say it's like,
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you know, two things I know about Paige is he saved his first, you know, dollar when it's first
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session. And he never buys his amps or change to. It's like for all the magic that he is,
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you know, he bought his main guitar from 500 bucks from Joe Wall. You know what I mean? Like,
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like, you know, he's really maybe not as sophisticated about what he's playing through as we'd like
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him to be. Sure. Of course. You know, he's like, I've got marshals. I have active blacks. I have a
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sonically theremin. I have a double neck. Right. Les Paul. But I'm more about playing these things
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than giving a fuck. Right. They were just tools at the time. This is the stuff we use.
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Yeah. And who knows what that mentality was, you know, like kind of going through those a
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couple of years he had in the studio scene. Right. Where, you know, obviously he was taking notes,
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but that was about recording. Right. You know, and you know, he's playing at a solid state
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rickid bockers and shit like live. Yeah. Like, what the fuck? Right. You know, so I mean,
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it's really hard to get in and anybody's mind that's that mysterious. And I think the mystery is
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just because he didn't give a fuck. Well, it's just like when you listen to, you know,
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Clapton's cream tone and like spring of if 68. You know, it's like it's the most glorious
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sounding thing. And you know, he did, he had no idea. It's like, what are my plans for?
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I'll just plug me into that shit and turn it off. That's right. That's right. And I agree
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wholeheartedly, you know, because there's a really interesting video of Hendrix jamming with buddy
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Miles. I think Hendrix played it one festival and then buddy Miles was playing the new port music.
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Look at seeing that. Yeah. Where's he got the blue Dishikian and he's playing,
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he's like showman. It's like, oh, yeah, like, like, stop. You're killing me. Right. And it's all
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that white trash audience on the beach, you know, like, yeah, he's just going. And it's like,
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you know, that strap through those dual showmen on 10 and you know, like, like, you know,
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the funny thing about a lot of fender amps like that, they don't have presence controls.
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Right. And I don't know if people really know what a presence control does. Is it,
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it's part of the poweramp. It's not part of the EQ, right? So what it does is it,
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it can really help you to grind that poweramp, you know, so when you crank the presence,
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not only does it give the appearance that it's brighter, but it actually adds more gain.
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There, there, that's a weird thing. So what it does is it limits the amount of base response.
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Okay. That's why it appears to be brighter, right? But it's just making the amp kick out. So
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if you have a fender amp, like, you know, a twin or something like, you know, like the crazy loud amp.
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And you don't turn the treble down, man. It just keeps going. Like, that treble just keeps
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taking off and going. And, and, you know, I don't think, you know, by the time they got to the 85 watt,
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you know, amplifier or high powered twin or any of those things, I don't think it was about
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game, man. I think it was about getting a really nice big loud clean, not too belly sound.
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Exactly. Yeah. And then you got under the center with a fuzz face going right in the fucking front of
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the car. That's the coolest thing ever, though. You know, that's the stuff that I think that you
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and I enjoy is stumbling upon a video of a guy we dig doing something out of the ordinary.
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And go, what happened that happened? How cool is that, man? Exactly.
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Yeah. Cause we have the luxury. You know, those guys didn't have the luxury. We have the luxury.
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You know, we can go into check out anything we want. We go on YouTube now and like see how
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gear works and we can work with other engineers and tell them our ideas and then they make them come
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the life. You know, we got it way better than those guys. Trust no doubt. I mean,
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you know, I often discuss this what I'm doing these these podcast conversations. Just talking about,
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you know, the ups and the downsides of social media and this technology.
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Yeah. And I always kind of stick to the thing of it. It's like we're kind of in the golden age
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of learning and, you know, making the craft better and having access. I mean, I'm sure you
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because you were the same age. Remember when you get like a tower player magazine and you,
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whoever you were really into at the time and they would mention like three, four, five influences
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that you'd never heard of before. And you're like, well, how do I get those records? And if you
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weren't one of those real proactive people that like sent away for records and you just went into
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the same goodie or 1812 and they would never have that shit or that were very rarely. But not
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anymore. Yes, Elmore James guys. Right. Now you go online and you can not only see or for sure
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you're going to hear whatever they had. But a lot of times you can actually see them in practice
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and then either they will have a thing where they're showing you what their plan or somebody else
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is broken. It's insane. It's amazing. It's amazing. Yeah. People still would rather rely on
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dragging and dropping loops of music and singing a melody and then having a guitar part. I don't get
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you know, it's so easy to learn and play an instrument now. You know, and people are still too
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fucking lazy to fucking learn how to play the instrument. That's the other thing about the
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technology is I say this all the time. It's like, you know, you'll post something and you'll list
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exactly what you're using the song you're playing. And if it's not your song, oh, it's by so
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and so. And then in the comments, people will ask the questions over and over again about what
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you just posted up. But by the same token, you could, you know, no one's cert you have basically
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the oracle in your hand. You know what I mean? And you could easily access with a quick search
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like I do all the time, you know, to me, and it's like, it's amazing to me that people have access
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to all this information, but they make they're so lazy. So fucking lazy that they won't even make
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the or like I always say I'm just so glad I'm able to make a living doing what I'm doing because,
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you know, you can't you can never take anything for granted. So it's like some person might see
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a widewood video I've done and be like, oh, I like that guy. So I'm going to a widewood video.
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Have no idea that I have records out. You have no idea of done. Whatever else I've ever done.
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They just like that one thing. I'm like, okay, well, however you got here, that's cool. But by the
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same token, if I was in this somebody, I'd be on my phone going, well, what's their history? I'd
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read the Wikipedia page and the thing to myself, well, this isn't the whole truth, but this least,
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least, you know, what's my beak a little bit, you know what I mean? And then I'm going to go in more
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than that. And like, oh, he was in this band. Well, let's hear some of that. Maybe there's some
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footage of how were they live? You know, you do the deep dive. And that's where I think,
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you know, where excellence really comes from is the people who have the drive. But it just
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amazes me how people don't understand that if you want this shit, it's like you've got to do the work.
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I mean, if you, especially for longevity purposes, you know, like working on a craft,
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and I don't care what the craft is, you know, but that's the secret to the baker. You know,
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the baker didn't just start making cakes today. Right. You know, they did the research,
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they have favorite other bakers and they, you know, all these things. And that leads to kind of like
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the modern guitarist mentality of, you know, well, who's the best guitarist? Who's van?
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That's shit. It's so weird. And the way I always explain it to guys, because, you know, people ask,
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you all the time, they ask me all the time, well, what's the best guitarist? And it's like,
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guitar players are bass and robins, man. You go in, you got 31 flavors. And in this case,
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probably a thousand flavors of the guys, right? And, you know, more people gravitate towards chocolate.
spk_0
Cool. Yeah. Chocolate's easy to process. It's fucking yummy. But then there's a fucking crazy
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guy that likes, you know, the Pimento Spamoni, you know, mocha, you know, all this stuff. And then
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because they like that flavor, they're not too turned on by all these other, you know, so it's just
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there's no, there's a course competition is great because we want to, you know, I see you playing.
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I want to play that weird bendy thing. Why he does, right? And that's the way it works. It shouldn't be
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well, Jeff Beck did that better than Jimmy Page. So Jeff Beck's a better guitar player than Jimmy Page.
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It's like, he's not. That's not that. I love what exactly. And I love to have back. And I love Jimmy
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Hendrix. And I love Pat Smirr, you know, from the germs. You know, I, I, you know, you can't, I would
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never tell a student like, only fucking listen to this because that's where it's fucking at.
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Although you know that there are people like that.
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And that's where I think guys like, like Angus Young have been really smart. Keith Richards
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have been really smart. Slash has been really smart. They keep it to a thing, right? To an
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identifiable thing that they do. And it's palatable. It stays the same. It's big and it grows.
spk_0
Right. It's like a thing. And I just, I can never really do it. You know, like, there's too much fun.
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I want to have, but I'll tell you something about ACDC. We did a couple tours of them. And they
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always soundcheck with the stones. You know what I mean? Like, so they're like, yeah, we really dig
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the stones, man. You know, so we just like put a little bit more distortion on me. Kind of that's
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a mentality. So, you know, some bands are able to focus and really like stick to a thing. And
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and, you know, I, I worship those guys. I wish I wish that my attention span was, you know,
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any bit longer than a fleas, but it's not. Right. And I was like, I want to try everything,
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you know, and it's fun. It's more fun to try everything. Absolutely. You know, it's kind of a
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funny thing is I, you know, we were talking about discovering things that you really didn't
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pay attention to at the time. And now I'm just obsessed. So I don't know when it was, but I
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started seeing, well, you know, Jason Isbell's guitar player, Sadler Vaden, right? Is that
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the same? I've never met a person, but we've talked online and stuff.
spk_0
Yeah, I never met him either. And he would always post on, I think like on
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Instagram, what's the Twitter Instagram?
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Oh, right.
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Right. Thank you. I had a senior moment there. He was posting this thing. And this was before,
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they announced the reunion, but he'd be like, another day has gone by an oasis. Hasn't
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re-reunited. I'm like, what the fuck is this guy's problem? You know, and because I was thinking,
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I always thought they were kind of just like a, like a, a would be Beatles cover band, right? I
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so then all of a sudden, they're, it's getting closer to the reunion. And, and there's like,
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oh, that's something you're seeing some videos. And I like, those fuckers are funny, right? I
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enjoy the little snippets of Liam and Noel and so on and so forth. And then all of a sudden,
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I start listening to these tunes. I'm like, I had no fucking idea that they are a rock and roll
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but now I'm absolutely obsessed. And so I've been listening to a nonstop and what's crazy is is that
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you realize, I mean, one of the things that, you know, as we talk about people always kind of
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compartmentalizing everything. You can't do this, you can't do that in terms of, this is the
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best or this is the worst. And, and you know, whenever you get the people are like, well, I'm just
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really more about the song. It's like, well, yeah, you're always about the good song. You're about
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music. Music and its totality, right? And the one thing that always kind of turned me off,
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especially when the kind of the American-esque kind of alternative singer-songwriter thing is,
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well, we can't get too crazy. We can't rock too hard. It can't get too loud. My funny hat might
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get a, you know, a stucco. It's a bizarre take. Yeah, it's creative, isn't it? And then, and then I'm
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listening to these, oh, wait, the song's like, these guys don't give a fuck. It is just, it's time to
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rock. And so I've just been, and it's so simple. Those songs are so simple. It's ridiculous, but
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that's the idea. They're fucking amazing. Well, now that you've gone down to the
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Thrabil, did you see their documentary like, I started to watch it the other day before I
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had to leave. I didn't finish it, but it's crazy. It makes so much sense though, because
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you get into music just because you like it. Doesn't mean you got to be good at it yet. Right.
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Right. Right. You have to be good at it right now. Right. You know what I mean?
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And there, that classic story of like, yeah, we just want to go in the fucking basement and
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fucking play. Right. Right. And get their influence by the Beatles. Yeah. What's wrong with that?
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The Beatles were also, you can also hear all the Beatles influences wearing on their sleeve, you know?
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Exactly. You know, I mean, that's the whole point. And, you know, the, the success that they had
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very quickly wasn't because they were virtuoso's. It was because they loved what they were doing
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and they were very dry with their sense of humor. Right. From day one, you know, people love that,
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man. People love humor. People love star chasm. And the other cool thing, they stick to playing
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cool looking vintage style rock and roll things. Yeah. Isn't there denim jackets? Right. The whole
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vibe. But yes, their music is really to the point. It gets there right now. Yep.
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You know what I mean? It's not fucking around. It's great. The production's great. Right.
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You know, so, you know, I don't know which one it is, but one of them has very good
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sense. Yeah. No, no, no, no, no, as the guy that writes it too. Yeah. Right. So that he has a very
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good sense of what's coming through the speakers and what feels good. Right. You know, and you know,
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I hate to tell you kids, but that's the most important thing, man. It comes through the speakers
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and everybody in the room feels good. That's all that fucking matters.
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Absolutely. And what I think is so amazing when you're, now I'm watching all the footage of these
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concerts that they're doing. They're huge. They're fucking massive. And every person in that crowd
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knows those words. And they're singing at the top of their lungs. Yeah. And you're like, this is
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it actually gives you hope for humanity. Well, that's because, you know, it's a very like, you know,
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I love how you said the other. It's so simple. And it is because rock and roll is, you know,
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and rock and roll has always been the go to. You know, I don't care if it's hip hop or country,
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because both those fucking genres right now are just heavily influenced by rock. Right.
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You know, country music, you know, I go, I'm addicted to crackerbounds. So I sit out and
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smoke cigarettes. It's fucking delicious. Right. So I sit out there. They're always pumping this
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modern country to the stuff. And it's like, some guy comes in like playing to your SLO. You know,
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right. That's our country. That's fucking, you know, that's that's rock. Yeah. You know, like,
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you know, the snare has a big fucking, you know, reverb gain on it. Right. And, you know,
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but the thing that ruins it is that fucking every goddamn guy sings the same way.
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Exactly. But I did hear a derriest rocker song the other day that I thought was amazing
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throwback to what country music really sounds like. And the weird thing is I heard my son's playlist
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who doesn't, he's not a rocker, you know, he, I don't want to go into Jagger. He's got another
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goal in life in his brain does something extraordinary, but it's not music. So I finally got him his
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first car. Get in there and I go, what are you listening to? Because he's never listened to music,
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you know, 16 years. I got a playlist. I'm like, that you put together and he's like, yeah,
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I go, well, what is it? He goes, I think I've some modern country, you know, some kind of hip hop and
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called a white girl music like Katy Perry style stuff. So he has this blandest stuff.
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And it's all the modern stuff, but there was this derriest rocker song on there. And I was like,
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like, hey, you know, that's the good song, right? He was, I love this song. I go, okay, at least you
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you could tell. He connected to something. But yeah, rock and roll is the heartbeat of everything.
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You know, I mean, if I'm a little Richard forward, it's spicy, right? You know what I mean?
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It's like, it brings the fucking heat and there's no denying it. You know, and I've got a couple
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friends, a couple girls I'm talking about doing a kind of offshoot band. And that conversation's
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been brought up. I was like, I want to keep this simple. I want to go for the throw. I want to have
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a great time. And we're going to be freaks, you know, because if you're not, nobody's going to give a
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shit. And yeah, I got this conversation. You know, because I try to work with young artists every
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now and then. And I'll call it like whoever's like an expert in the field of whatever music it is.
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I'm like, hey, I've got this guy recorded this record. This is good. You know, and like the first
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thing that like real pros always tell me is they go, you know, send me a video. Yeah, so I can see it.
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And like, you know, 10 out of 10, 10, look at his slap. What are you thinking? You know, it's an
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entertainment business man. Entertainment. Yeah. Well, like, right, right, right, you know,
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fair enough, you know, and it is. And it always will be, you know, and but guys like us, you know,
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we had a much tougher time discovering Beethoven or whatever, you know, I mean, it wasn't in our
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face all the time. And so, you know, when I see somebody really trying, you know, I kind of overlooked
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the schlep factor. And like, but this guy's talented, you know, I have empathy for this young man.
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But it is a business and it's the music business and it's the entertainment business. And that's
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the bottom line. No doubt. I mean, I'm sure I remember hearing distinctly of buddy mine years ago.
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Um, you know, they, um, the buddy of mine from Little Feet and then my buddy,
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Catfish Hotz, they had this band called the Blues Busters and we were doing some gigs with them.
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And they loved our band and the guys like, you know, I know somebody at whatever record company.
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And, um, and he got back and he goes, all the guy asked was, how old are they and what do they look
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like? You know, and you're like, really? And then by the same token, you're always thinking, well,
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certainly someone along the line, like there's a musical true North that certain people still
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ascribe to and you're like, no, is a matter of all they care about is where is success? That's the
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only language they understand. So if you can be successful, well, man, making really cool shit.
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Great. But that's, that's not, that's not the prerequisite.
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It's not. And it's funny because if we look at like, uh,
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Alan Fried, how he would get to get the single, you would put it on the radio and it was a hit, right?
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Because that was the only game in town. Um, and then smarter people came in to, this was great.
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Thanks. Right. You know, more radio stations, more recording studios,
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having all these guys in the 50s go on the same bill, play two or three songs and money, money,
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money, money, money, money, money, artists last to get paid, right? Right.
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In Jemeer, we get paid a little bit upfront radio guys around the salary, right? So now we get,
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to this point, and I was trying really hard for a girl I was going out with, um, to get some
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radio stuff, right? And I get a breakdown from the label of what the criteria is, um, like an
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an real analytics, real information and reading this. About about her age, thought about her
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audience. It didn't matter how good her songs are. It does not matter because the funnel,
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there's already 200 pieces of sand that are, have clicked all the boxes.
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Yeah. Everything behind those 200 things, these people are going to give up. And then there's
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going to be 200 more grains of sand that click all the boxes. So in theory, yeah, if you have a
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great song and it's on the radio, yes, you're going to have great success. Getting to that point is
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like nearly impossible. It always was. Yeah, totally. Yeah, it's not a new thing. But, um,
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you know, that's why like, you know, I respect bands like Pantera, for example, right?
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They didn't have all that. They were so good and so unique and so word of mouth,
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the delicacy and extent to, um, that there are some people that cut through all the noise,
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but it's very rare. Very rare. And then we're still talking about one or two artists, you know what I mean?
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That's what I'm saying. Exactly. I don't want to make everybody fill with glue and do,
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but you're supposed to do music because you love it. You know what I mean? I was saying, you know,
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in, in, um, in connection to the earlier thing we were talking about about the internet,
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is that it has leveled the playing field in terms of you can directly contact your fan base.
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You just have to build your own fan base and, and it used to be, I mean, it's still,
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it's still the wild west ish that you can still organically, you know, if you're really good,
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put your stuff out there and get some, some traction going, although the, uh, the analytics and
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the algorithm is being a little prickish as far as that is concerned, but still you can maintain,
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you know, grow a crowd. I mean, that's what we've done. I mean, we've, we've build up, and I always say,
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you don't need a million anymore. You just need enough. You need enough people to show up at your
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gig, enough people to support you. You know, I just like I started a Patreon thing after many,
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my, my son Dylan is now taking control of a lot of the different, um,
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online marketing stuff. He's killing it, you know what I mean? He's like, Dad, you know,
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you know, he used the example of, you know, a lot of these guys who do these YouTube channels,
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they make millions of dollars. They do. And my son's like, if, if this guy and this guy are,
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are making it, you should at least be doing X, you know what I mean? So, you know, he's kind of
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taking over and it's, and it's growing and that's all well and good. But the biggest takeaway from
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all this stuff is you do not need a million people. You just need enough people to support you.
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You get 10,000 people buying everything you do. You're fucking done.
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Oh, you're, yeah, that's insane. Yeah, I mean, and, um, I try to tell people, you know, they ask for
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advice because you know, a lot of people have, you know, 10 million followers and 20 million followers.
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I'm everywhere, but they can't sell out, you know, a tiny bar, you know, um, and kind of the
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whole point of what I'm saying is like, if you're great and you go to open mic night, those five people
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are going to be like, God damn it. Right. And then the next time seven people are going to be there
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at the 90, like you can still do it the organic way and then use your, your social media to your
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band. Well, exactly, exactly correct. That's what we've noticed with just the fact of, you know,
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to your point, it's like you can have all this online stuff, but the online thing is cool as it is,
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it's not the same as being in the room with people. There's that, that whole magical thing,
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that intangible thing that we all loved and, you know, inspired to music because of that experience.
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And so it's, it's getting in front of people. And yeah, to your point, you might go to some town and,
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you know, there's 10 people there at the first time, but if you're awesome, those 10 people and
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the owners of the bar and the promoter are going to tell everybody they know and the next time you
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come through, it's going to be more and more and more, but it's, it's that sacrifice of just doing it.
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You have to do it, man. You know, especially if you play rock and roll, right? Like, especially if you
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play rock and roll, rock and roll literally means live. You know, it means unalive. Right.
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Nothing else. And, and, and you really got to do it. You got to, you got to connect with people
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in a way where they like you. Right. Because, because personality is just as important as the
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cool stuff you're doing. No, not, I mean, and if, and if you're relatable, human being, you know,
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nothing makes the guitar hero better than a really great singer. Right? Right. You know,
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if you got David Lee Roth or whoever, and you're great, well, people are going to say you're great.
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Right. Yeah, but if you got some slap and you're ripping all of a sudden, yeah,
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okay, exactly. Yeah, you know, a great singer makes a guitar hero.
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There were no doubt about it. You know, there's so many psychological factors in, in the whole
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deal. Because, you know, I was listening to, I was listening to, I was listening to, I was listening to,
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and I thought to myself, how did this not work out? You know what I mean? Because it, it,
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it had all the same magic, you know, it really did. People don't even know about it. It's so
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weird to me. Right. And, you know, they dump him out and then he ends up a little Richard for a minute
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and doesn't know what the hell he's doing. And then he's like, fuck it. I'm going to England,
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you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, all of a sudden it just happens. Right. That's
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because he got in front of enough people. Exactly. At that point, he had gotten in front of enough
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people in a real setting where people are like, you know, my favorite story is the
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Clapton one. He goes, he wants to jam a Clapton and Clapton blows him off kind of and finally he
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gets up on stage and Clapton and Clapton just, just, just, there was this mouth open. Right.
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What the fuck man? You know, and, you know, magic comes in all shapes and forms and sizes and,
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and, you know, while you're alive, you know, go see some magic, you know. That's exactly correct.
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I walked right up stage in one venue and got in an Uber to go see you do your thing. I remember
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well because I want what you give, man. You know, like, I need more of that in my life. You know,
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it's just everybody's so formulated, even on a rock level, it seems like these days that
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it's tough to really get the thing, you know, it's really, it's hard to find it.
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Well, it needs to be done. Yes it does. I can't do anything else, so I'm going to do that.
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Well, listen, my friend. It's great hanging with you. I'm looking forward to seeing you at the end
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of the month. And that's going to be a blast. Hopefully we can do some more. I think that's
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going to be a lot of fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We, well, you know, one thing leads to the next. I just
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have my buddy Dave, who's a laid back country picker, come up and play with us at this festival.
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We get over the weekend. It's so cool when guys get together and do stuff, man. This is like,
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no doubt. So that's my mentality. So, you know, we'll keep the flight going. So we're going to do as
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much as possible. Coming up. All right, man. Thanks, Greg. Thank you. My pleasure. Take care. We'll talk
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about it.
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Well, thanks for tuning in. Ladies and gentlemen to another episode of Chewing the Gristle.
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We certainly do appreciate you stopping by. Make sure you tell your friends all about us.
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I think they might enjoy themselves. So thanks again for tuning in, and we'll see you next time.