Entertainment
Spotify's Billions Club and the Future of Criticism
In this episode of Money Nothing, hosts Saxon Baird and Sam Bakker delve into Spotify's Billions Club, exploring the implications of songs hitting over a billion streams. They discuss the evolvin...
Spotify's Billions Club and the Future of Criticism
Entertainment •
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Interactive Transcript
spk_0
I think the San Diego is often overlooked as a place of post 70s avant-gardeness.
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Please.
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Please.
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San Diego is often overlooked as a place of post 70s avant-gardeness.
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I don't know.
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I know nothing.
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As someone from California, I know.
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John Waldo Sari is from there and like, went to school there and used to teach there.
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Marcus used to teach at the UCSD along with other lefty Marxists, Frankfort school people.
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Great bands like the Locus came out of there.
spk_0
I didn't know the Locus were from there.
spk_0
I think the Locus star group band.
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San Diego was cool about 10, I didn't tell about 2008.
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I feel like America was cool until about 2008.
spk_0
I was saying that America got uncool when we elected Obama.
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Yeah, I guess I am.
spk_0
Yeah, I don't know why that was the thing that made us uncool.
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Like, we'd have to unpack that more.
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But like, yeah.
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Yeah, that was the last.
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Or we like, we spent it all.
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Like that was the last cool thing we had.
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Like that used to be like, we elected a black person in it.
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Like who smoked fucking cigarettes in the White House?
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Did cocaine?
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Like, we, and then that was it.
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That was it.
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We had nothing more than tanks and we haven't done a single cool thing since.
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Yeah.
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Speaking of music criticism, I was going down the drain as well.
spk_0
Oh, happy New Year, by the way.
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Happy New Year.
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Do you have plans for tomorrow?
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You're not really.
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Like, I'm going to go to synagogue.
spk_0
You know, may year 5,785 be filled with life and light?
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That's all the earth is.
spk_0
No, that's just what year it is.
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Look, how did that start?
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How did our year start?
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Why is it 2025?
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I mean, I guess that's Jesus.
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So I don't know what, I think I could be wrong here.
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And people who really understand the Jewish calendar at me,
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I thought it was from when they just started counting.
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That's my understanding.
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And I don't know.
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So it seems as if 3,000 Sunday October 6th,
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3,761 BC is year 0 in the Jewish calendar.
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Which in extraordinary Talmudic fashion starts one year prior to creation.
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That first year, it's called the Year of the Chaos Moon.
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That's very poetic.
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That feels like an echo in the Bunyman song or something.
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I guess that the killer movement.
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Yeah.
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Oh, yeah.
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Mola Tohu, which means the mean new moon of chaos or nothing.
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Wow.
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Pretty sick.
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Who knew?
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Talmud getting to be metal.
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Oh, dude.
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You know, do you know where the Torah existed before creation?
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Where is that?
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In black fire on white fire.
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And so when you stare into another person's eyes,
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you can still see the primordial Talmud.
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Welcome to another episode of Money Nothing,
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the podcast about music and capitalism.
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I'm Saxon Baird.
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And numerology.
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And numerology and rabbinical debates.
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I'm with Sam Bakker, as always.
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And we were not going to discuss the Talmud this time on the podcast.
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But we are talking about music criticism and the billionaire Spotify club.
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Sam, you recently sent me a text of some new additions to Billion's Club,
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which is the Spotify Billions Club, which is a music that our songs,
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rather than have recently hit over a billion plays.
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I see that it's being updated every day, including two-pock songs on there now.
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And also my favorite Santeria by Sublime.
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Oh, I thought we were going to say my favorite song.
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Beautiful Girls by, I believe, convicted felon, Sean Kingston.
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Oh, wow.
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Oh, yes, that was just, that was actually added just three hours ago.
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This is interesting.
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So you were like, hold on, hold on.
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Let me just make sure that he, in fact, is a jail.
spk_0
Yeah, yeah.
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Sean Kingston sent us a three and a half years of jail for like a fraud scheme with his mom.
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Well, that just got added to people who are out there.
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They're holding vigil for Sean Kingston, free Sean, free Mr. Kingston and his...
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Free Mr. Kingston.
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But, um, that was mom, probably, too.
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I have actually never looked at this billionaire's club, public playlists,
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and you were sending me a, you actually said it like last week,
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so there was like some new additions that you were like, like, what the fuck?
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Including, well, maybe I'll let you go for it, but yeah, like,
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there was a, this is some like, chase as a landing.
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Just...
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It's just weird.
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So yeah, we were like, I don't know, I was poking around, and I just, I ran, I mean,
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I've seen this before, but it just clicked.
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I was looking at the most 20 most recent songs.
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Which has changed, but yeah, yeah, right.
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Which has changed, yeah, yeah.
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So, who knows what new songs will be added to it.
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But so yeah, this is a playlist kept by Spotify of the songs,
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every time a song hits a billion plays on Spotify, which is like a good number of plays.
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That's like, with all due respects to our fallen colleagues at Penny for Actions.
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Like, if you get a billion plays on Spotify, that is...
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That is actual money.
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It's not nothing.
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You know, even at a, yeah, it's, that's real money.
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But it's also just like a fascinating collection of...
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I mean, I think the thing that really peaked my interest was...
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I was just...
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I flipped it open, and I noticed that both Clint Eastwood by the Gorillas,
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and I knew you were trouble by Taylor Swift, just hit a billion plays.
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But also, they're next to like, songs from this year.
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It's just, it's such a, like, just going through it just offers you this incredible strata
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of what's happening in popular music.
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Like, both now and like in the continuing afterlives of some of these songs.
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Right, yeah, exactly.
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You get like this, like, like an Alex Warren song, just hit a billion plays,
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like two spots after Natalie and Bruglio's torn, which is a cover by the way.
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Really?
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Like a cover by some random like Australian band.
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Anyways, yeah.
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Good for everyone involved.
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Yeah, right.
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That's like how girls just want to have fun as a cover.
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Right.
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No, and so I feel like it's, it feels to me in this like...
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We've talked about this a lot, right?
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Like that...
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One of the strange things about the streaming economy, about digital culture,
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is the way it flattens time, right?
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And it flattens time in terms of what is now, right?
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Like acid, like acid bath, like, like, like, bands that were like small cult bands back in the day
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are now festival headliners.
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Like, which is the important band in a genre is reshaped fundamentally?
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Like, the fact that...
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Duster is...
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Is the biggest chugaze band?
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Somehow, I think.
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Like...
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And it's not like...
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I think there have been past processes of reconsensualization that occur
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as different generations take stock of the music of a specific era.
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Like, the biggest rock band in the 70s was like of the 70s was like probably aerosmith.
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Right.
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But by the 90s, the most important one is Led Zeppelin.
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And in the 2000s, it's Fluid Mac.
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Right, yeah, right, right.
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All bands that were big in the 70s, but like, that's just an example.
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And I'm not sure.
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Just like, but like, aerosmith isn't...
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It does is no longer.
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Stops being like a touchstone for like anyone by the year 2002.
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Anyone who's not actually in velvet revolver.
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Um...
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I actually...
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But I know that I actually had a funny discussion about aerosmith with a bunch of people at the bar the other night.
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Because some girls proclaiming that she loved aerosmith and her dad used to play aerosmith all the time.
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And I was like, which album is she was like, pump?
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Which is like, they're like, weird 80s come back one with like, loving an elevator on it and stuff.
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I was like, that's sure.
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I was like, once again, time flattening.
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Like...
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Yeah, no people love aerosmith.
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I don't get it.
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I mean, they're good.
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It's just honestly.
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Honestly, I think that, uh...
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Stephen Tyler is not a great singer.
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I mean, he's a good vocalist.
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But like, he's not like, he doesn't the way he delivers blues...
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double or triple or single on... single on tenders.
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The way he delivers single on tenders, I find unconvincing.
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It's like, go to the Bond Scott School of talking dirty on the mic, sir.
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And then come back to me in front of bestselling rock band.
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Or like, have a show of rubber plan.
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But anyways, moving on.
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Yeah, yeah, moving on.
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No, but so... so...
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It's different than that, right?
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And one part of it is, as I was saying, is it's this ability for bands that usually are well respected.
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But often small, just like in this temporal shift, just bubbled at the tops, like, algorithmically,
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rather than as a result of changing cultural tastes.
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Like, I think there...
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Some people, and I've read this online, like, there is an argument for why Duster fits particularly well.
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And the... the sonic landscape of the way people are engaging with music now.
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Or certainly, like, the fact that it turns out the most successful indie rock musician was Mac DeMarco.
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By, like, such a long shot.
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Like, of that whole scene of everyone.
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It was Mac.
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It was Mac by, like, it turns out it was Mac by a landslide.
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Right.
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And some of that is, like, about how this music fits in.
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But some of it is, like, algorithmic.
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You know what I mean?
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It's not... it's about how things get heard and how things get experienced online.
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In this very specific way.
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And so there's that we've talked about.
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But then there's also just, like, the mix did with that on alongside and comp...
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That would be one version, one story about temporality.
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I feel like... like, digital music, temporality, online.
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But then there's this other story, which is the long tail hits.
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Right.
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The fact that a big song's making money year after year.
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That they're still getting put in soundtracks.
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That they're still getting put in rockin' playlists.
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So those songs keep making money.
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But also, they still have, like, currency.
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Because the digital musical economy is kind of flat.
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So it, like, just, like, right.
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So they keep being current songs in a different way.
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Like, they keep getting added to the new playlists.
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It's very... does that make sense?
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So...
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Before I answer that, I would just like to say that Mac tomorrow is very soon approaching the Billions Club with
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Chambers of Reflection coming in at a 992-100,000?
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How do you say that?
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992-1000?
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Whatever.
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992-100,000, right, with my kind of woman coming in shortly after.
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Now, are you guys suggesting maybe, like, this thing, like, a band like Paramore,
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which can, like, kind of, like, fit into, like, a number of, like, different eight-emoral genres?
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If you're, like, creating a playlists on Spotify, you could put it in the emo genre.
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It also has, like, an emo band from, like, the, like, early two.
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It also has a mic, chemical romance, like, track.
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Yeah.
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Sure.
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Right.
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Are you guys suggesting that, that, like, these kind of...
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There's, like, these, like, certain songs and bands, like, depending on various genres,
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they can, like, slot in and out of, like, this sort of eight-emoral moment,
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and that's, kind of, what then allows them to be as popular as they are.
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Yeah.
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That's part...
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I think that's true, and that's part of what I was saying.
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I guess I was also saying that if you think about, like, the classic definition of catalog sales, right?
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Right.
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That's originally, it's, like, everything over six months or a year.
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It's, like, the idea that new, like, releases sell the most, because it's pop music,
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and that temporality was baked into the very idea of pop music, from Tim Penallion down.
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And then...
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After that, like, it slows to a trickle.
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And then you've got these albums, like, you know, famously, Dark Shot of the Moon
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was on the Billboard Top 100 album charts for, like, a decade for it, right?
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It just, it never left, because everyone just wanted to keep exploring...
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exploring that Dark Shot of the Moon section.
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But I guess what I'm saying is something different, right?
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So there was always, like, there's the, like, re-discovery, like, duster, right?
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That didn't sell...
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It's functionally, like, a new old band.
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It's almost like a reissue.
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And...
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But then there's also the fact that...
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There's a blurring of the lines between new songs and catalog.
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I feel like, and the promotional mechanisms...
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Maybe that's part of it.
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It's, like, the promotional mechanisms are more similar.
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If you think about radio stations, right?
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There was top 40, and that would be certain stations, and those would play new songs.
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And then there were greatest hits stations at Golden Oles or Classic Rock or whatever.
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And those would play old songs.
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I guess there were some stations that would play more than one thing, right?
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Like, K-Rock, when it existed in New York, would play, like, the latest white stripe song,
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like, the hardest little button to button.
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Like, like, white stripes non-hits, but then also...
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Give it away.
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It was like a new wave track, whatever.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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We're like an alt track.
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I'll turn it up rock track, right?
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But like, the point is that, like, they're all mushed completely together now.
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So, if you go on your basic, like, interface of this or the recommendation algorithms,
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you might get a new song or a rediscovery song or, like, one of these catalog songs,
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which means that just the ability, I think, of an older song to keep selling,
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and then, like, to start interacting with the other music around it is different.
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And I feel like this list was so interesting because of the mixture of all of those things that was on it.
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That, like...
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Yeah, and I think it's also, I think it's also, like, a characteristic of...
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I hate to use this term, like, the algorithm or whatever of Spotify.
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Because, for example, as I was going through this list as you were talking,
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I just went ahead and clicked what the not-like-us-mychentric radio is.
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Okay. So, this is, like, when you click on it, it creates, like, a radio playlist.
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It's not really ready. But it's a playlist for you that's supposed to be based off of the song that you like
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and that you're listening to, right?
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And so, like, the first, like, 10, 7 or 8 songs are, like, newer, like, play barcardi,
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other, or, like, Kendrick songs, ironically, like, the four songs, one dance by Drake.
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And then, like...
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Great song.
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And then, like, number 7 is, like, it was a good day by ISCube, which came out 40 fucking years.
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Like, 40 years before this song came out.
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And then, you get the number 10, and it's good luck being by a chapel road.
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And then, like, you get the number 18.
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The 18 song is, like, a Charlie XCX song featuring Billy I.
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I mean, in fairness to the algorithm, the girl that chapel is singing to is not like us.
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In that song.
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Okay. All right.
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You know, and then you get down, you get in, like, Michael Jackson.
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And it's like... But the point being, I think it kind of illustrates your point here,
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where, like, not only are you, like, getting this sort of a temporality happening,
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but you're also even within, like, a specific song, which you're trying to click on
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and hear other songs.
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You're getting stuff that's outside of the genre, different years, different styles.
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It's, like, all kind of... And it's just being, like, thrown together.
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Um...
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That's kind of what you're suggesting.
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Yeah. And that there are those things that have an ability to, like, interact with each other
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in different ways than they used to.
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And so then it kind of, like, it starts to break down, like, understandings of, like, genre,
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and then also, like, how you would say, like, market music, or, like,
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are listening habits, or, like, oh, like, I'm more of...
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Or even, like, the way we'll get to later about, like, certain, like, maybe,
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under ways of understanding music criticism, right?
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So that's the thing I thought, right? Like, I think the breaking down genre and all that is,
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is very true.
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But what I thought was so interesting was, kind of, reading through this list,
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and, and what I'm... We're about to do that, like, very briefly.
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But, like, reading through this list, and...
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My takeaway was just, like, how complicated it is to understand
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what's going on in popular music, given...
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A-temper-route, given that so many of the, like, the, the, the,
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the, um, load-bearing walls of our understanding,
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like, have been just utterly demolished by the digital musical,
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the digital music ecosystem.
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Like, so it's this funny thing where, like,
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almost, there's almost no tracks here,
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where I'm just utterly befuddled.
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That's what I thought.
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Clicking on the Billions playlist, I was...
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I thought, I assumed that I would be like,
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I have no idea how are these songs got here.
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Who is this?
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What is this weird, like, finish, like, GABA song?
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Like...
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You know, like, this, like,
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a Stonian trap masterpiece that has a billion plays.
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And instead, what you have, I think,
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is in a way that genres and genre-based charts and musical history
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kind of kept apart.
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And I don't know if this actually...
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People's music listening habits might still keep all this apart,
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but the Billions playlist is kind of a wonderful thing
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because of the fact that it's just so raw.
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It's such, based on such raw quantification,
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that it's just like, is it a billion plays?
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And then it shoves them all together.
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And you're like, oh, look at all the ways
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that you can get a truly large scale hit in this moment
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from so many directions.
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Okay, okay, so enough of the, like,
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whoing and haing.
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Saxon.
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Okay.
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Who do you, Saxon?
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Well, actually, let me just...
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Let me just...
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Who would ha a little bit first?
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Or a second?
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Before we get into the list.
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Well, because I think there are some caveats
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that we need to put in here.
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First of all, you said, hit.
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And the definition of, like, a hit that's based around the platform
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of Spotify that is kind of self-perpetuating these kinds...
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We don't know how the algorithm works,
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but I think there is a sort of self-perpetuation
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of, like, however, the algorithm works
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that's putting these on playlist,
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that's putting these on radio as well.
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That was true of radio as well.
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That's suggesting this in people's discover weekly
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that then, like, pushes these songs.
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You know, it's not just like...
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I think we have to at least acknowledge that this isn't just, like,
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me going in searching for day and night by Kid Cuddy.
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You know, like, I mean, there's sure there's probably
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a lot of that going on, but I mean, there's a lot other,
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I think, it's contributing to that.
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Right?
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So, I think, no, no, I think that that's 100% right.
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This is self-perpetuating.
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And certainly, like, God love, I love,
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it's one of my favorite things is watching cold play,
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just use every single lever of music industry possibility
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to somehow maintain a, like, a hold on the charts.
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Dear listener, have you listened to a cold play record
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in the last seven years?
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Because what they are producing is insane.
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Like, it's not...
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By insane, it makes it sound like it's some sort of, like,
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over-the-top work of art.
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And it's not that.
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It's just...
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It's just...
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You listen to me, you're like, what is this even mute?
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Like, what is this?
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This is just, like, a collection of sonic signifiers
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jumbled together over, like, third generation,
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stadium, EDM, beats, like, with an uplifting chorus,
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kind of.
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It's truly startling.
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And you're like, but it's still somehow,
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you've got the right number of, like, co...
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It's like, oh, it's...
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But it's featuring BTS, so it's gonna be put on BTS radio.
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And it's gonna...
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Yeah.
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Right, no, totally.
spk_0
Yeah, then that's what you mean by pulling all the lever.
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Oh, yeah.
spk_0
Like, every single, like, they just got too much power
spk_0
to ever leave the spotlight.
spk_0
Like, friends, friends, friends who listen to this podcast.
spk_0
Let me illustrate that their 2024 album, Moon Music,
spk_0
has a song that already is in the nine digits of plays,
spk_0
featuring obvious collaborators of Coldplay.
spk_0
I mean, this is such a seamless collaboration.
spk_0
Burnerboy and Little Sins.
spk_0
What do you think of when you think about collaborators
spk_0
of Coldplay?
spk_0
Burnerboy.
spk_0
Yeah, exactly.
spk_0
Which means that Coldplay is on a Burnerboy radio.
spk_0
Right.
spk_0
Yes, exactly.
spk_0
Anyway, so get into the list.
spk_0
We can...
spk_0
Okay.
spk_0
And by the way, also Coldplay has, like, their top 10 most
spk_0
played songs all over a billion.
spk_0
That's...
spk_0
Jesus Christ.
spk_0
Okay, anyways.
spk_0
Continue.
spk_0
Yeah, okay.
spk_0
So, number one, three thousand and five by Childish Gambino.
spk_0
I remember this song from the radio.
spk_0
It's an okay song.
spk_0
Some of the rapping holds up okay.
spk_0
Some of the rapping does not...
spk_0
Shocked.
spk_0
Shocked to find it on this list.
spk_0
Like, a too deeply shook to find that it...
spk_0
Like, is on this list.
spk_0
But I guess this might be the most inexplicable one to me.
spk_0
Not because, like, I know Childish Gambino has, like, big songs.
spk_0
But, like, that just doesn't...
spk_0
Also, the production is both...
spk_0
That was the other thing that listened to these songs.
spk_0
Like, it's such a time capsule where I'm like, oh, yeah.
spk_0
This, like, post-claims casino big washed out synth production for a second.
spk_0
But the drums sound terrible.
spk_0
Okay.
spk_0
Someone to you by banners.
spk_0
Which is the worst song I've ever heard of my life.
spk_0
Like, I don't know.
spk_0
Did you listen to this one, Saxon?
spk_0
No.
spk_0
Once again, folks, you can tell who really cares about you,
spk_0
who's willing to put their eardrums in the line of fire
spk_0
for what I can only describe as science.
spk_0
I don't like this...
spk_0
That song was crazy.
spk_0
And...
spk_0
It's almost worth stopping the podcast.
spk_0
Have you listened to it?
spk_0
Like, I don't know what genre of music this is.
spk_0
It's like...
spk_0
Okay, hold on.
spk_0
Hold on, hold on, hold on.
spk_0
Hold on, hold on.
spk_0
Sorry.
spk_0
Oh, it's a commercial music almost.
spk_0
It's like something you would see, like, advertising...
spk_0
Like, I had some, like, pharmaceutical thing or, or, like,
spk_0
or, or like a new, like, romcom or something.
spk_0
Yeah, oh my god.
spk_0
Yeah, what is that?
spk_0
Really stomping.
spk_0
There's, like, stomping.
spk_0
And then there's, like, hard hitting, like, piano.
spk_0
But then there's, like, the, like, the weird, like, yeah,
spk_0
like, crescendo, like, endless crescendo.
spk_0
Like, kind of, like, happening.
spk_0
spk_0
But, like, a romcom about tr...
spk_0
Oh, yeah.
spk_0
Yeah, it's, like, it's a little Christian,
spk_0
but it, like, it's not.
spk_0
It's really...
spk_0
I'm like, who are there people?
spk_0
Like, I'm sh...
spk_0
Like, are there...
spk_0
Is he real?
spk_0
spk_0
Yeah, no, no.
spk_0
It's really an inexplicable song.
spk_0
And this is one of the ones where it does feel like a one-hit wonder or a playlist
spk_0
where, like, this is a format thing.
spk_0
If you go...
spk_0
And again, clearly, we're, like, looking very quickly,
spk_0
and using Spotify as a good metric.
spk_0
But, he's got one song with a billion plays.
spk_0
And then, the next biggest song is...
spk_0
Literally, an order of magnitude less, with, like, 100,000 plays.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
And then everything else is less than that.
spk_0
It's, like, 50,000.
spk_0
Also, like, we're...
spk_0
Anyways, whatever.
spk_0
Yeah, like, um...
spk_0
No, sorry.
spk_0
50,000,000.
spk_0
Excuse me.
spk_0
Hahaha.
spk_0
Um...
spk_0
And there were a couple jumping around.
spk_0
There were a couple like this.
spk_0
Impossible by James Arthur.
spk_0
Um...
spk_0
Uh...
spk_0
Snowfall by Oneheart?
spk_0
Yeah, Oneheart...
spk_0
Oneheart, I've actually...
spk_0
Like, it's weird because I feel like Oneheart has, like, a little bit of, like...
spk_0
Like, like, cool kid, Craig, or something.
spk_0
Like, I don't know.
spk_0
Like, I've heard them on, like, NTS a couple times.
spk_0
And they, I think they even have, I think they even had, like, a guest spot on NTS.
spk_0
It's like, he's like a 19-year-old, like, Russian, who makes, what's called dark ambient, with, apparently, I guess.
spk_0
And, like, starting when he was 11, he's like 19 now.
spk_0
Yeah, that's, that's a, but I think I don't get it.
spk_0
I don't get that one either.
spk_0
No, but yeah, with, and that, that one is, like, it's like, what I would describe as Pelliecore.
spk_0
Right?
spk_0
Like...
spk_0
That's just, like, friend of the... friend of the pod list, folks.
spk_0
Yeah, that's one that's just Pelliecore.
spk_0
Like, that's, that's, uh...
spk_0
It's just, like, a two-minute piece of ambient that clearly is on...
spk_0
A Cudrillion ambient playlists.
spk_0
It's not tied to an album.
spk_0
It's a single...
spk_0
spk_0
Sleep.
spk_0
No, it's like sleep, concentration, studying.
spk_0
Like, oh yeah, all those...
spk_0
I have to say that, like, I did try, I was like, okay, okay, I'm gonna, like, put this.
spk_0
I'm gonna see, like, put it through its paces, and try to do some work while listening to it.
spk_0
And dark...
spk_0
I don't know if it's his dark ambient or dark ambient generally, but...
spk_0
That was a depressing process.
spk_0
Like, like, that, that music sounds like sad, nothing.
spk_0
And, like, I don't understand, like, ambience usually, like, creepy calm.
spk_0
But it was, like, distinctively sad.
spk_0
And I'm like, boy, like, why would you be like, I wanna not pay attention to anything,
spk_0
but just want a creeping sense of...
spk_0
On Wee.
spk_0
Like...
spk_0
Some other ones, you know, there's some big ones.
spk_0
I mean, the other thing, okay, so maybe, instead of going track by track, like, the category thing...
spk_0
My category is maybe a good way to purchase, right?
spk_0
And some of these, you know, are just, like, songs that had hits in other formats, right?
spk_0
All the records that Clint Eastwood, or Natalie, Imbrolia, sold...
spk_0
Clint Eastwood by the Grilla's, torn by Natalie Imbrolia, like, none of the CD sales are in this information, right?
spk_0
This isn't a complete picture of their overall musical sales.
spk_0
This is just on Spotify, and clearly, like, those are songs that are big enough that they just, like, at a steady clip.
spk_0
Ever since they've come on Spotify, have probably been generating.
spk_0
Or have been, like, soundtracked in a dramatic way, like, recently, and just pushed them up.
spk_0
But I imagine all, like, that...
spk_0
A couple other ones, day and night, I think it's probably, like, there, by Kid Cuddy.
spk_0
It's just, like, people just listen to that.
spk_0
A lot of people listen to some of that, always.
spk_0
And it's just gonna, like, unless something really changes, I imagine that is gonna also hit two million.
spk_0
You know what I mean? That's just gonna be steadily...
spk_0
Billion. Two billion. Two billion.
spk_0
That's, like, steadily people are gonna keep listening to day and night by Kid Cuddy.
spk_0
And then there were a couple that, like, just surprised me.
spk_0
Both give me more by Britney Spears, and I knew you were trouble, period.
spk_0
I did know that there was a period at the end of that song title by Taylor Swift.
spk_0
I think of his huge hits, and sure, their huge hits in other moments, like Clint Eastwood,
spk_0
which I don't think was ever a huge hit, but it was, like, at the big song, or torn.
spk_0
But I just assumed those were, like, enormous, continue.
spk_0
I think both of those have enormous songs that, like, I hear played...
spk_0
Maybe, just really outing myself, it's, like, peak millennial.
spk_0
But, like, that I hear played at Dance Party still, both of those songs.
spk_0
Not, like, in the club, like, like, some people are pre-gaming at a house.
spk_0
Like, like, local, like, like...
spk_0
All those pre-games in Maine.
spk_0
Dude, there's no game. It's all pre-game up here.
spk_0
Um...
spk_0
Yeah, no. And then a couple, like, a slip-not-song...
spk_0
Romeo Santos.
spk_0
But, so, so I think that, like, to, to kind of, uh, the reason also why we found this so fascinating,
spk_0
is, kind of, goes back what you were saying earlier, because of the fact that it kind of just completely re-orient and alienates,
spk_0
and, like, shrouds, like, our unders...
spk_0
Like, one's possible understanding of the music industry, as it's, like, been traditionally understood,
spk_0
in the last, like, I don't know, 40 years or whatever.
spk_0
Yeah, no. And I think it's just, it's just like, it's fascinating. There's so many paths through this, right?
spk_0
Yeah, just that there's so many paths through this, and so many plausible ways.
spk_0
Yeah, that it just, it's like, there's no one narrative.
spk_0
Like, there's not one takeaway.
spk_0
The only way to describe this list is observational.
spk_0
Like, oh, it's interesting that Clint Eastwood is here.
spk_0
Oh, it's interesting that, uh, a track from the third, a big track from the third slip-not-album is here.
spk_0
Oh, it's interesting that, like, both Bad and Bougie and a recent Bad Bunny song just hit.
spk_0
Like, I'm surprised that Bad and Bougie wasn't here, as the biggest Migos song, right,
spk_0
wasn't here a long time ago.
spk_0
That makes me think that Migos is smaller than they are, maybe.
spk_0
But, like, uh, Magnolia by Playboy Cardi, which is, like, seems, like, a pretty normal Playboy Cardi song,
spk_0
is here.
spk_0
Though, maybe that's adding me.
spk_0
It's not, you know.
spk_0
But also, but I was just like, one other way of, like, observing this kind of stuff is, like, is what we do here on this podcast,
spk_0
which is trying to, like, understand, to, you know, to use, like, a tired metaphor, like, how the sausage is made.
spk_0
Yeah, and, and, like, I feel like, in a lot of ways, like, I feel like that's kind of the only approach in which, like, this can be understood.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
Of this sort of fractured landscape of, of, of, of music listening through, that it's also in some ways, like, probably, like, a lot of it is, like, passive listening.
spk_0
And because people are being like, service this stuff, like, through algorithms or whatnot, that, um,
spk_0
well, as I'm doing right now, essentially, like, like, like, having to, like, a critical engagement with this stuff,
spk_0
you'd see their observational, its taste, essentially, like, I don't know, Anthony Fontano being like, I don't like it because I don't like it, essentially,
spk_0
or kind of the way that we're doing it, which is kind of, like, actually, like, at the heart of, like, this project, and the whole reason why we started it is,
spk_0
that we kind of felt like there was, like, a real lack of engagement outside of, um, a few, a few people who we've all had on the, on the show many of the times.
spk_0
There was like a, and, and God bless the staff of music business worldwide.
spk_0
Yeah, I love you guys.
spk_0
Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
spk_0
Which kind of, like, uh, slides us into another topic.
spk_0
Many people have been talking about this, well, many people in our world have been talking about this article that came out by,
spk_0
Kolea Fasane in the, uh, New Yorker, that was essentially asking how did music critics become so nice.
spk_0
And it kind of, like, charts, you know, a lot of people were talking about this and the article kind of, his fault.
spk_0
Yeah, truly, actually, um, the article kind of tracks music criticism from, I guess, the 70s to the sort of present and how it's kind of, like,
spk_0
a black teeth now. And I guess the name kind of contributes this loosely in the article.
spk_0
It doesn't really answer the question that well, but like, kind of, it's until like, optimism of the 2010s and then,
spk_0
kind of like, treating like a pop culture, including music as kind of worthy of serious analysis and aesthetic appreciation that was like on par with like, I don't know, rock or jazz criticisms.
spk_0
Um, and then how that kind of like, blood into like broader beliefs about like, uh,
spk_0
social justice issues and almost like criticism kind of became more about like what it was commenting on is the person good and then like, isn't this kind of exciting.
spk_0
Yeah, it's, it's interesting, but like, I guess like dangerously almost, almost in the article getting close to critiquing salon, which is, I was, oh yeah, yeah, that was, that was wild.
spk_0
Yeah, but I think Titoing, Titoing towards a critique of Salon.
spk_0
But I think that the interesting thing about the article is that he begins to sort of like, he kind of like suggest this point where it's like pop critics and in particular like pop music critics,
spk_0
like, it feel actually particularly extraneous, considering that well for one of these music is made for the masses, then what are we actually critiquing here? Like, what are we analyzing?
spk_0
And it's like, and then he also kind of makes this point that it's like not particularly like a vital to the form itself, like say like literary criticism is or maybe like a sort of art criticism.
spk_0
And yeah, so this, what ends up happening is that there's sort of this exhaustion of critique that's kind of centered on taste and like whether something is like good or bad or like, I guess aligned with like contemporary social justice issues and things like that.
spk_0
And I don't know, I guess like the thing that like I think that we, one of the reasons why we started this podcast was because of the fact that like what that tends to lack is any kind of like real attention to the sort of historical mechanisms or like economic structures that like not only like goddess to this point,
spk_0
but that were have been kind of underlining the entire industry in like which we do criticism on.
spk_0
And like I guess when we started this, we were talking about how we like the spread of the podcast like five years ago, we kind of felt like so much music criticism like really lacked context.
spk_0
And I mean, I mean my context, I don't mean things like, you know, I like I guess I mean like more like socio economic or historical context.
spk_0
Yeah, which to us, I think, you know, obviously seems important because I mean basically what is the basis for foundation for your critical engagement with this art other than like formal elements if you're not doing that.
spk_0
Right, like with a destabilized production was modeled or whatever what's that?
spk_0
Oh, just that we yeah, I think that like adding on that like with a destabilized basis for critique, which I still think is is and I think there's more to say and I think my thinking has evolved a little bit about what that
spk_0
originary basis for critique was.
spk_0
But I think that like as the institutional structures and and discursive structures that enabled like 90s or 2000 style pop criticisms started like to melt away.
spk_0
Yeah, that once that was no longer self evidently justified and given the level of of given that so much of artistic choice making, especially and I wonder if it's chilled out a little bit now, which is another question we could ask.
spk_0
And in the article, there's kind of a question at the end like is more not robust but more negative criticism coming back and it's possible that in a music industry that does feel like it's
spk_0
with the kind of the wall of AI slop on the horizon feels like it's maybe gotten not its feet under it.
spk_0
Yeah, no, it's feet under it that that when we first started writing and thinking about this or talking about this five years ago, it was we were towards the tail end of a period of radical digital reinvention and it does feel like
spk_0
TikTok's not brand new anymore. All these things are brand new anymore. We've talked about like chapel, rone, Charlie XC X, the ability of like well executed campaigns to like build to build new big artists in a different way.
spk_0
And so there's a possibility that you know there was especially when we started it felt like a lot of a lot of economic moves or rather moves that were tied to specific visions of the music industry or almost like political economies of the music industry were being read at a purely aesthetic level and that they were aesthetic but it was an aesthetic that
spk_0
also included all of these other elements and that's something that looks more like I don't know like institutional critique is was it was a was a was a useful way to try to grapple with like the totality of what artists were doing that like if you were talking about
spk_0
you know the big so I mean they're still big but some you know Beyonce at that time and you weren't thinking about how she was moving at an industry level and how the hurt you weren't thinking of her as a business woman.
spk_0
You really weren't and only talking about her as an aesthetic as an aesthetic phenomenon. You were missing a lot of what she was doing and I felt like there was a whole second and a half of what she was doing that wasn't getting talked about.
spk_0
Yeah yeah 100% yeah and I mean I think that also having that sort of critical judgment it it also and I mean not to put too much emphasis on it but it mean it kind of also is a window into how society structured like capital the overarching ways of like capitalism are like it like playing roles in our life.
spk_0
And then like your individuality you're like you as a subject like in relation to that in some ways through that art you know and through how that art is being made I mean and like the everything all the industry around it as well and like the business woman aspect of it you know not instead of just from this purely aesthetic level.
spk_0
Yeah and do I do think that I mean there is there's an interesting thing and I think an interesting question that the article and some of the discussion like hasn't dug into as much which is again like really thinking about what it was that pop critics were doing because I'm actually not sure if they were doing it.
spk_0
I think I like this is going continue. Well so like I think that the idea of the pop critic right is like was like a movie critic basically right is that there was this kind of audience of listeners and they wanted people to advise them right you wanted to check in and learn about new things and you had your $10 and you were getting either by.
spk_0
The Carpenter's greatest hits volume to or trout mask replicant and like you turn to Ralph Gleason to figure out which one you should purchase.
spk_0
And like I think that's the fantasy right and one of the things that's interesting about the article is it kind of asks.
spk_0
It talks about fandom for a little while and then kind of asks this question which is clue been a major problem for music critics that write or think about stuff that anyone cares about and that like if you come for.
spk_0
By come for I mean discuss in any level of negativity a major star oftentimes with a huge especially with a view like a vehemently online fan base like I don't think like the four tenors fan base was coming after you if you were like I don't think those tenors are so good.
spk_0
It's like it's the barbs you know I mean which is Nicki Minaj's fans of somehow you live under like a non Nicki Minaj related rock.
spk_0
The thing though is it's within his point about like people try to separate fandom from music but actually like fandom was always a huge part of music.
spk_0
And like the specific parasocial or group socialities created by fandom around the consumption often idolatry of pop music in a mass media environment what is like a big part of what drives all of this.
spk_0
And I do think I think he's right about that but it also raises the question of like for me again thinking back to that not a
spk_0
visionary moment but like the normative vision of what a pop music critic is which is like this person to say oh you two thumbs up one thumb down you know that guy and like it's always in the imagination like a guy unfortunately which is like fucked up and it's all for me it's always the mother guys which he mentions actually I was like oh cool
spk_0
which is only good like fucked up kettle of fish the gender and balances and music criticism until very very recently I mean even then clearly not not fully addressed but right and I just wonder if in that
spk_0
pop music but are they ever actually writing a like for the like is the part of pop music they're writing about the same part of it that's actually pop music right they're writing about mass culture but I don't know if they're writing about it like actually in relationship to the mass culture part of mass culture it's like they're taking mass culture this large
spk_0
scale social phenomena shrinking it down to where like it's similar in size and scope and scale to the cult act that you also love and engaging them in like a very specific set of ways and so like in this almost this come out almost mimics like a sort of like academic light like naval critical theory like totally and so I do wonder if like what's that actually doing because I think the easy answer is like nothing
spk_0
it's an exercise in self deception but that's a little bit to and like that's the mean thing to say about it's like it just doesn't matter no one cares no like every critic in the 70s hated let's Eppelin and everyone has basically almost everyone has basically just agreed that every single critic in the 70s was wrong about the most the biggest band of the 70s basically or one of them I've already said that Eric Smith was the biggest band of the 70s both
spk_0
like so like you know you know what I mean but like so what if they're like doing something else though what if this is about the audiences that the critics are writing for and the way that then those audiences can it's important to have like a knowable understandable version of these kind of mass cultural phenomena to be able to engage with like it's for the audience
spk_0
of people who are reading the pop critics like duh but like that's a very specific audience that fits into this broader social system it tends they tend to have more cultural capital they often tend to I think like if we're thinking about like newspaper readers or like conda nast readers tend to have more disposable income it's like a specific segment and that like somehow what's happening with criticism is like almost the
spk_0
domestic domestication of true mass culture which can feel concerning and out of control for a group of elites or wannabe elites because it really is this like rampant thing out in the world and it makes it like knowable and graspable and then like pulls it into these circuits of other types of cultural value.
spk_0
What would you say to like the sort of adorno approach where it would be kind of like it is it should be concerning because it's like not what that's like not what the populace are doing you know I mean maybe I don't think that's that's that's these are the kind of people who this is what you're talking about like people like basically writing like sort of critical analysis of like like yeah sure you got some like pop music whatever yeah like adorno would say it should be concerning and maybe he's right like right like I don't know if it's all bad but like it's a
spk_0
concern and not of concern and like it's like you you should be that's a concern in a negative way but it's of concern in that like it's of concern to everyone what is going on in mass culture and then that and that also like forms and that forms society and inform in forms society as well and people in society like about like their understanding of like I don't know I like to take the the classic example of our like broader conceptions of
spk_0
terrorism is rooted in as I mentioned the last last episode is like rooted in like probably a lot of people that that understanding is like rooted in like fucking all the Marvel movies yeah
spk_0
yeah on right which which feels dangerous no and and then there's a question of like right well so that's what the almost seems like so but the but I guess the question sorry but I guess the question
spk_0
this in is like like noting I mean I guess it's more specifically about like music but how there's like a kind of a lack of negative criticism about that
spk_0
we're like I think that like you could take this sort of structure in which you're discussing right where there's like the person commenting or criticize or critically analyzing mass culture right and they're writing very critically of like say like Marvel movies and how it's like informing our understanding of like
spk_0
yeah heroism and patriotism and all you know you can like create like some sort of critical theory about that right but he's saying that actually like it's like in music it's like it's not doing that it's actually like just contributing to probably it's like free press essentially
spk_0
yeah and I mean some of this might be like about like the collapse of like in my head it's it's it's not unrelated to like the collapse in support for expertise across American society right it's like it's like there like this positions of power and then yeah right yeah certain they had the stability for better and for worse to like exert these judgments and that in as every
spk_0
as more voices appeared and as the control over discourse declined like there wasn't that stability and certainly in terms of optimism I feel like that and probably I think there's it's not quite like there are two intertwined tendencies within
spk_0
optimism like one is there with this destabilization it reminds me it reminds me a little bit of there's actually a really good podcast episode about Steven
spk_0
Saundheim when Saundheim died the kind of Broadway mainstay of second half of the 20th century musicals and they had this new
spk_0
top top guys great episode and they had this like Broadway scholar on because no one John Parallel is a little bit but like most of the pop cast guys don't know anything about Broadway they don't
spk_0
let's know it they don't like it and she was basically like well the thing is stupid is that everyone's just saying incorrect things about
spk_0
Steven Saundheim and they're saying like he transformed the musical and like brought it to the mainstream and actually it's exactly the opposite in that in that the musical is mainstream
spk_0
American musical culture until the 50s and early 60s it still has a lot of cultural cash but it's no longer turning right it's like to not
spk_0
trust singing songs from musicals in the 40s the Beatles are not singing songs from musicals in the 60s and that in the wake of that change
spk_0
Saundheim comes in and does all this like oven guard weird like modern post vapor and tonality stuff in the musical and like actually she's like more
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responsible for anyone that killing for killing the musical as a popular for like it's incredible art I love Steven Saundheim but like like just like it's not pop music anymore and I do
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wonder if in a funny way that like pop dimism is a similar thing it's like in the moment that music criticism because of changing record industry structures because of
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changing consumption structures because of proliferation of avenues of expression because of social media and my space and all right at the moment that like the basis for criticism not to mention like crags
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list right like which kills the musicalism first oh because of the for all the free papers why all of the papers in America were based on
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classifies oh I see I see I see maybe like money why that's a streams of income for the papers yeah yeah okay yeah he did yeah that's
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slow down some time he's told mr. American story he feels bad about it he feels bad about it Craig Craig new mark he gives lots of money
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to good causes because he may have destroyed America by accident like not destroyed America but destroyed American journalism
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local journalism in America it's not his fault but like it is anyway the point being that in that moment I wonder if there's these two tendencies in pop
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dimism that maybe we smushed together and one was a lot of brilliant writers took that moment to be like all of these other things are
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series art too and everyone you could now hear the voices of all the people all those led Zeppelin fans who didn't give
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a shit about what anyone were rolling stone said all those Emerson Lincoln Palmer fans who didn't give a shit or rush fans who didn't give a
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shit about what anyone rolling stone said ever now they all had Twitter and so you could hear them and those two things coincided and fed
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each other but I sometimes think that there's like a there's a funny causality confusion like actually
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actually I don't know if music critics were ever powerful enough except the very specific culture spaces a lot of cultural capital
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to like shift discourses about music more generally it's like I think there was an opening and then at the same time
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twitter uh opening from what and those two things like I'm like opening like an opening to
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write about all these different kinds of music seriously and engage with them seriously
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but the fun in a way that like abandoned the extremely powerful defensible position of rockism
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it's interesting for better how to go because they're engaged because I think that like the
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the the the the the the the the argument for turning towards I guess a more negative criticism which
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actually you're beginning to see in other forms like you're but you there's been a lot of
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shots fired within the literary world in the last like I guess year uh specifically around uh
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Lauren Euler and um I'll leave it at that all the you google it's not not worth getting in now we're
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thinking due because actually like in the end like one of the best parts about that was like guess what
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no one reads or buys books anyway so none of this fucking matters but um people buy books they buy
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why no even the stuff that this they buy um there was like this funny done no one buys
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the literary about like in the middle of this like fucking twitter spat and like it was like
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here are the numbers from both of these people who are arguing on their uh their sales and nobody
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selling which I thought was funny um but you're also seeing an art criticism honestly honestly
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a money for nothing yeah yeah exactly exactly truly from a literary agent weird um but also um
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this is happening also like the art world you're beginning to see like a sort of return to like
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make you a more negative criticism but like that's the interesting thing about this is that like
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so maybe the sorry what I was gonna say is that maybe the argument for a more whatever negative
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criticism or maybe like maybe what we argue for or not what we argue for what we're trying to do
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which is like not so much a negative criticism or maybe a more I don't know holistic criticism
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is uh instead of like taking this you know Marvel movies as an example as like a serious art
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instead it's like taking it seriously as like a form of entertainment in the fabric of society and like
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critically analyzing that like how like this this plays a role there's like a there's in how people
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understand the world and themselves to it and like it's not just like and it's shaping like our ideas
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around things and and like I said earlier you know a rose and patriotism or whatever and like
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engaging with that we're more in a more critical way that way but then again it comes like who's
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it I mean who's reading it but it doesn't matter what but I know I also think I mean there's
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a couple things there like one is when you said like a serious art and I think maybe that's one of
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the things that optimism if I was gonna like I mean and it is the name it's like celebrating
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I mean that's in the name it's it's optimism it's like yeah it's celebration it's like yeah
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which I yeah no and so in some ways it is interesting that like this discussion does feel like
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and and this tendency to whatever extent it's real is like a beginning to think seriously about
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the stakes and the cost of abandoning certain kinds of like negative criticism and and maybe
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think seriously about optimism which I think is probably a good thing because it's we've said like
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I think optimism has has had incredible benefits but I think it has some real issues and I think
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what you said about like Marvel movies is is a good way to think about it right it's that like
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there is no there's no art right art doesn't that's not a that's a I mean it's a category that
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exists it has a history but it is not a thing that exists outside of its history right it's not a
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universal category when we say art we say art informed by the traditions of the societies that we
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were born in we were born in different societies if we were born in a different time in this
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society we'd have a different understanding of what art is right and so you would I kind of
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would argue that like a optimism that treats this culture and some of optimism does but some
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I think if it doesn't the treats all of this culture with respect it deserves what attempt to
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like situate it in the practices that produce it and think about the fact that all of these
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different kinds of human cultural expression they're used for different kinds of things they're
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different kinds of cultural expressions but then like in that they can be good or bad right and
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I think there's a space beyond saying like either oh the only way we can judge good or bad is like
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is it Bob Dylan the the next level is oh everything and again these are just totally strong
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adding here but like incredible reduction of a lot of capacity is like a celebration of all of these
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figures on their own terms and for what they did but again partially because of like the vast
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proliferation of different figures it's very very very hard like if you're talking about
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Dolly Parton and Prince and 80s era Rolling Stones and Latin free style and Jarre Rulna Shanti and
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Dance Hall and Technobrega and Banda like it's very difficult to like evaluate all of those
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individually and so you kind of go like oh isn't this so great um because there is it's all great
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there's so much great music but it does mean that you've abandoned like part of this critical
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practice or part of the promise of criticism which is say like how could this like be better
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order the like you know to quote to quote Ben you mean like in what ways is this piece of civilization
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a record of barbarism um it's two shows in a row we've used that word dude it's it's a it's a barbaric fall
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um and in so many ways it is a barbaric fall um so so uh you know what I mean and so the question is
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is there a way to do to treat all these different kinds of music that are produced in all these
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different kind of ways treat them on their own terms but also and maybe this is totally like
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idealistic like yeah think about all the ways they're fucked all the specific ways they're
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fucked up they're not fucked up in a general slapped ashe ways each of them unto each of them is
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their own special kind of fucked up but also but how they can be better but yeah but but also it's
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like it's it's it's like I think that also what gets wrapped up in a lot of this and he kind of
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mentions like the fandom and stuff like that and like oh this is maybe just like a general fall
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of intellectualism across or whatever I don't know but like that like you could criticize I don't know
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the new Taylor Swift and not like criticize Taylor Swift like you know does that make sense?
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it's like it's like like what is the phenomenon of this music and her within society that is like
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perpetuating this these ideas around like femininity or relationships of men or like as
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you know identities of women or like and like what is that how does it contribute in like yeah
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socioeconomically and all and like how can we do better and I do think that one of the the
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huge blind spots as we move and this is a theme we haven't talked about forever on this show but like
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as we move away from 20th century mass cultural visions of music right if we think about
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art as having a history music also has a history the definitions of music have a history and
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if in many ways modern quote like like second half of the 20th century modern popular music we've
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talked a lot about tied to the ideas of the album form tied to a set of to temic figures who are
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now passing away tied to an in music industry that has with a specific set of exploitative
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expropriative tendencies but also like nurturing is too much to learn but like
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develvating like yeah development artists development
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but like practices like we don't like the big labels but also I don't want all the music to be
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generated by like Spotify's AI bands yeah and no and and just that have their own like
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habitus have their own like internal sets of practice within these industries
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um like as we're moving away into a different set of those things in which music it does feel like
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is a content stream that's more interchangeable with other content streams um it does feel
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to me like there's a challenge coming like poptumism in some ways like in my mind in many it's like
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a wonderful like yeah like early Spotify era end of MP3 blog early Spotify era
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way to think about this music culture but there are these challenges coming and are better here
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that I feel like we lack critical vocabulary to even think about like
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and we were talking a couple weeks ago about like the temporality I think of of some of the
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social media feeds right like if you ask me what my shame to say that I'm a youtube shorts guy
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because it's the only app I can't get off my phone um because sometimes I need to log in via it
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uh but but like if you asked me what shorts I was watching two years ago and how they differed
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from what shorts I was watching today I wouldn't be able to tell you like there's a like
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like it's one thing like the lack of temporality is just overwhelming and so there is this question
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like more broadly and music is an important part of this I think and so that's what you're saying
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before about the ways in which understanding what music does it gives us like a
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manageable chunk of what's happening more generally to our cultures and to our identities and to
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our our individualities and to our agency and contemporary capitalism but like
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it's just like it's impossible for me to like the the I don't even know where to begin
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to generate a critical function to talk about my youtube shorts consumption which is
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as much as I watch TV I don't watch that much of it but like I would guess I watch
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between five and 22 minutes a day between here and there kind of poking around in my phone
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I think that's probably not I think a lot of people watch that much and like just the the complete
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inability to generate any doesn't even have to be brilliant criticism I don't know who I watched
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yeah no one can this is something that because like that credit what you're what you're
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implying if I understand is that that criticism actually like gives structure and narrative quote
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unquote to that experience error like or like that function that we are engaging with or that
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you know I don't want to call youtube shows art but like whatever that media let's say that media
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yeah and that criticism really kind of gives structure to that and like attempts to try to
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understand it and I mean we've talked about this before and I mean like as maybe like a future
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I mean our bandwidth is small but like a future endeavor that we could like you know nail into
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money for nothing is like is like trying to create some sort of like critical engagement with this kind
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of stuff um and I think that because and it just feels bad for society and it models bad for society
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generally that there's like yeah it's a great point it feels like there's there's very little
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and I think it's intentionally designed yeah 100% and part of me like the the tinfoil hat part of
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me is like if they're making it so you can't critique it why yeah yeah why exactly um this might be
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funny like I this this relates it's like a personal antidote but it relates like I actually you
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know from these conversations I actually um one day recently I was paying close attention
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to like my engagement with Instagram and like actually kind of like taking notes from it and then like
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oh you turned and then like stopped to put my phone down and then I just wrote like
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aging hundred words about like the last like five seconds of like what I like last like 35 seconds
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or a minute of like my time on like Instagram like what I clicked on then like the website I went
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to afterwards and then like what and like followed my steps and it would it like
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doing that alone was just like gave me such a kind of like like four six like this sort of
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self-reflection to like like how can I even document this like I was like a real-time documentation
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of like in a way and it was so like dense and schizophrenic I'm sorry that that's like an
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appropriate user but like it was like and like schizophrenic and like all and I was like the
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fact that like everybody's doing this for like hours on end a day possibly which is like the insane
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totally insane um but I actually think it's good I think it's like this is actually that I'm not
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no there's a weird moment of like what if I got the prescription this I actually suggest people
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to like go like do that for 30 seconds like actually like document and like journal or whatever
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take notes of like what you did opening like open up Instagram how much time you spend on it like
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actually you know even like screen recorded and then go back and fucking document it and you're
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be like wow like you're one's engagement with that and how much like it have a energy time
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attention whatever it takes up it was it was and you're doing it's also with that you're doing
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complicated judgments right yeah like interesting yeah it's some it's like you're doing like
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Kantian shit right like you're judging you're you're connecting you're you're making decisions based
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on like who you are and how you think the world should be like or not like I that's like an I
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and right it's a pure I right it's an I interacting with the world in the purest way
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these instruments and it's just like we've got no and I don't mean in like a digital detail I
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just like in a purely like could you be using Instagram better like no completely I mean I
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and like I think and like and like it's like I agree I mean like I'm more power to the people who
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are like don't have it and like digitally have cleanse themselves and like whatever you know but
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I mean truly like more power to them but in reality the masses are not gonna be doing what
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these people are doing at any kind of large scale and so if you are someone who is concerned about
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the things that we're talking about like listening to this podcast and like yeah like I mean it's
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it is an interesting question to bring up and I mean I don't know have you ever done stuff like
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that I like my like I've done weird stuff like I have like a whatever like an alternate Instagram
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that is just like follows only art stuff so the feed is purely just galleries and artists and
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everything and I've also done something where like I've taken my iPhone and if you look at like
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the way here I can show you actually because we're like look at look at oh oh the yeah yeah
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they're like scattered yeah yeah yeah right right right we're like like I don't have I don't have my
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I have like 12 apps actually like on my whatever you call that desktop I don't even know to call
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the phone desktop and they're like not in like a line they're scattered and on different pages
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to like kind of like scramble my like touch thing I mean maybe it's all helpless
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but it's all just a helpless effort but I mean it is it you know like at least there's like a
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sort of like self-awareness happening I'm like what's going on here you know and and I think the
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other thing is just like the importance of not sat of being complacent of knowing what we're
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you know it's just like knowing what we're not doing yeah yeah right like if we're if we've
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decided as a society that we're just gonna not generate a critical apparatus for the
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primary forms of culture of the primary pathways of mass media cultural consumption like
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that's a choice but I don't know if we've made that choice I think it just sort of happened
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and it's very hard to track so I do think that some of this like return to criticism especially
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if like if there's a standpoint from which you could say this gets in tricky territory but like
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and so there's no risk-free way to say it which actually might be a good thing right like
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post the moral absolutes post like the there's a way to do anything without potentially like
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incurring cultural risk like probably we should all be like there's no purity there's no
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purity so like figure out how to like risk what you can and but like in doing so then say like
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is there a way to say like oh I think this could be better and I don't think that that has to be like
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like a fascist reductive vision of the world like I do think there has to be a way to both be open
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to multiplicity and to demand better I think also I think also it doesn't have to be like then
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like put into like what we've seen a lot like put into like the blue sky like
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form where it's like this we just need to make another platform like or like maybe we do make
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another platform but like I it's just you know there's like alternative there's like a limit
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there's something also about the way that we interact with this stuff that actually like limits our
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imagination of like what is possible and I think that kind of plays a role in that and it doesn't
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mean that like we all return to the fields in our socialists utopia or something but yeah like
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is there like just like a better way to engage with this stuff I mean I guess well yeah dude we're
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going it was it was called vine yeah truly but no but like you actually like I know we've
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gone along on this but like just I would like add from a historical standpoint I mean like has
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there been in a situation where like a new form of technology related to the media has come out
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and there's like it's in one way and there's a sort of like this push towards making it
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another way that's I mean it's like is this kind of like I don't know like avant-garde film in the 70s
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or something like it or I mean I think I think a lot about radio in that I mean again look
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and it didn't lose this possibility entirely right and one could say that it was replaced by
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television which had its own complicated set of practices there's historical nuance here but like
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radio emerges in 1920s it corresponds closely with the rise of fascism or at least cults of
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personality pretty much everywhere fascism in Germany but like let's be with here Roosevelt
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had four terms that's a lot of terms of president that's 16 years that's a that's a that's a
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close it like that's a lot of president right and a big part of that was that the ability to
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generate these intense power social relationships with people and clearly radio didn't lose that power
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right um talk radio the rise of conservative right wing radio podcasts and people's relationship
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to podcasters there's something magic about radio and listening to sounds in your ears and the
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relationships you get with people whose voices you listen to but like there was a 40 year period of
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time where like radio people had like learned a little bit that like you can't believe anything the
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radio man says like right and it was this like independent radio and college radio and like
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other all like independent radio and college radio you get new structures of mass media so when
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TV replaces radio in the 50s and 60s like there's a different set of social structures around
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television and the use of television then there was or and I think intentionally cultivated
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but also I do think that people just got better at mass media that there hadn't been any
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like like like uh uh besides reading right there hadn't been any sensorial mass media
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then there was everyone like didn't know how to deal with it at all for like 20 years and then they
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like kind of figured out how to deal with it as people a little bit um and so I do I do think I
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don't know if that answers it exactly but I do think that there can be processes of being overwhelmed
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for like quite some time I would say two decades maybe and then pulling back and it's not like
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it's stopping powerful like you can go back to our episode with Brian Ward from very early on in
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the show about the importance of black and white radio stations in the south and the fall of Jim
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Cross aggregation right radio clearly still mattered um but not in the same way it did when it was at
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its most destructive and influential I would say and it kind of feels like maybe well who knows but
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it feels pretty what we're experiencing now talking about feels pretty influential and destructive but
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maybe it could get even more so well think with that Saxon I'm gonna wish you and everyone else a
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happy new year um may may the coming year be less full of fascism and genocide then this past one was
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money for nothing I agree agree okay well I guess we'll tie a bow on that one um do you say happy
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Russia Shana yeah yeah anyways if you're out there celebrating happy new year um we're back in a
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couple weeks please rate review us and also follow our sub-stack money for nothing dot sub-stack dot com
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that's the number four money by bird language with money music by bird language and we'll talk to you soon