Sinners Part 1: Black Love Does not Have To Be a Struggle or Traumatic

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spk_0 Welcome to Real Conversations with Britt and Bri, the podcast where we don't review movies

spk_0 and TV, we talk about them.

spk_0 No stars, no ratings, just real conversations about what these stories say about us, our

spk_0 culture, and why that one character had us by eye in the screen.

spk_0 It's thoughtful, it's funny, and sometimes a little too real.

spk_0 This isn't a review, it's a real conversation.

spk_0 Hi guys, welcome to episode one of Real Conversations with Britt and Bri.

spk_0 I'm Britt and I'm Bri.

spk_0 And today we are starting our number one episode of a five part series on the movie

spk_0 centers.

spk_0 So the reason why we are revisiting centers, even though it came out early this year, is

spk_0 because Brian Kool-Tor announced that he'll be re-releasing the movie in 70 millimeter

spk_0 IMAX this month, probably for Halloween, right?

spk_0 So the reason why that's important is because it's such a rare format for a movie.

spk_0 It is the first time a film has been released combining ultra-pand-a-vision 70 and true

spk_0 Max-IMAX film.

spk_0 So this is one of those movies that for this very reason, it's important to go and see

spk_0 it in this format and that's because it's giving you a much bigger scale, something that

spk_0 you typically wouldn't see in the theaters.

spk_0 It's allowing you to be more immersed in the film.

spk_0 And so that changes the experience that you have.

spk_0 So if you are in an area where they'll be showing 70 millimeter IMAX, I highly suggest

spk_0 it as you can see it and tell us what you think.

spk_0 All right, guys.

spk_0 So since we are going to be talking about centers, I think it's fair to give a quick overview.

spk_0 Just in case you haven't seen it or you haven't seen it in a long time, just to give you a

spk_0 little bit of a refresher, a little bit of a reminder.

spk_0 So Simmers has said in the 1930s and the Delta Mississippi around the Jim Crow era, the

spk_0 movie follows twin brothers, Smokin's stack as they leave the North from Chicago and

spk_0 the North and come back down to the Delta after a seven year period of being away.

spk_0 Where they encounter some very, some savory, some even say supernatural people who get in

spk_0 their way of their desire to open a joint down there.

spk_0 They end up getting they deal with some really crazy situations and we see them trying to

spk_0 navigate through that and work through it to the best of their abilities.

spk_0 So given that the movie is such to me a very important film for the black community,

spk_0 one of the things that me and Bri really loves about the film and the characters that are

spk_0 in this film and portray here other relationships.

spk_0 Today's episode is going to be specifically about the relationship between Smokin and Annie

spk_0 and Stack and Mary and kind of the differences between them and why these are important examples

spk_0 to see on screen.

spk_0 So just to kind of go back to who's not in the movie.

spk_0 So Smoke and Stack are both played by of course Michael B. Jordan and Annie is played by

spk_0 woman Musaka who is I mean brilliant as an actress.

spk_0 I love, love, love everything that she's in and then Mary is going to be played by

spk_0 Haley Steinfield who I think started off as a child actress.

spk_0 I'm not mistaken.

spk_0 I'm almost certain that's what she was a child actress.

spk_0 So she's going to be opposite Stack in this movie which is the more ambitious twin.

spk_0 So one of the things that I appreciated about Smokin and Annie's relationship is that there

spk_0 is a grownness to the way that Smoke and Annie interact with each other.

spk_0 They are married as far as I think we know.

spk_0 Based on everything I've seen they are a Mary couple.

spk_0 So obviously Smokin and Stack have been away in Chicago for seven years.

spk_0 Smoke returns back to Annie and Annie is a little bit surprised but because she's

spk_0 spiritual I think she already kind of picked up on the site that he might be on his way back.

spk_0 And so they reconnect but there's something really comfortable about the dynamic between the

spk_0 two of them. They're not uncomfortable with the fact that they've been apart for seven years

spk_0 which do what they would be a big deal.

spk_0 And so one of the things that Bri and I talk about a lot just on our three time is the fact that

spk_0 sometimes you know trauma can be a reason for people to kind of bond with one another but in

spk_0 Smokin and Annie's case they went through a loss unfortunately they lost a baby and that is a

spk_0 seed that kind of runs in their relationship but it doesn't define it.

spk_0 And that's one of the things I think is really important about the relationship between the

spk_0 two of them is that their relationship seems like one of a lot of trust and I think that that's

spk_0 something you don't typically see in black relationships.

spk_0 Yes especially when you're talking about black relations that are depicted in film

spk_0 we still often see relationships that are so laced with pain and trauma and toxicity that we

spk_0 don't get a chance to see a relationship that is fully based in a trust and

spk_0 comparability with the two characters.

spk_0 So that is what is so unique about Smokin and Annie's portrayals that we get to see a love that

spk_0 is not so laced with all this trauma and hurting one another.

spk_0 Yeah they have some unforeseen circumstances that are happening outside of their control

spk_0 but it is not something that they are doing to one another.

spk_0 It is a love that they have cultivated even with the separation and true warning to anyone who

spk_0 might be sensitive to this but having lost a child they have managed to still cultivate this bond

spk_0 and this love and this protection for one another that you don't necessarily see with the characters

spk_0 stack and marry in their relationship.

spk_0 There's definitely a sense of trust between the two of them they seem like they almost seem like

spk_0 they're worn in and that's like the best way that I can describe it.

spk_0 They don't seem like two people who are just like figuring it out.

spk_0 You can tell that there is a longevity to the way that they connect and there's a loyalty there

spk_0 as well because when he comes back and this is a spoiler as a pocket.

spk_0 So if you can't do a spoiler they'll be carrying on.

spk_0

spk_0 Yeah there's definitely a sense of loyalty that just is steady and I think that even in the way that

spk_0 they kind of communicate with each other they don't necessarily always agree but there's trust

spk_0 there. It's very interesting to watch because you don't typically see that depicted on screen and

spk_0 especially in some of these movies where Black Love is very shallow or is very painful.

spk_0 Like there's really no, there's very few that I can think of off the top of my head that are

spk_0 very deep that have some kind of weight to them and this is one of those examples that I think

spk_0 we need to see more of in the future. So in contrast to that is the other twin stack and his

spk_0 love interest Mary and so just as a background for Mary Mary is consider her to be white or white

spk_0 passing her mother's father was half black according to the storyline and Mary of course is played

spk_0 by Hilly Stinefield stack of courses might be Jordan and there's a difference in the way that

spk_0 they communicate with each other because they're pretty sharp and biting in the way that they talk

spk_0 with each other there's not like there's almost interreference. They're almost disrespectful to each

spk_0 other in a way but it's like they that's how they talk with each other there's an understanding there

spk_0 of what the other person means to each other and I think that that's nice but it doesn't carry to

spk_0 me it doesn't carry the same fullness and weight that Annie and Smoke show in their relationship

spk_0 and the the thing that I want to ask you is what do you think that her being white passing does to

spk_0 the dynamics and the ability to build trust in that kind of a relationship in the 1930s where there's

spk_0 obviously a lot of issues with race happening. I think for them particularly because they are

spk_0 an interracial couple because she is a white passing individual it is hard in my opinion it is very

spk_0 hard in this timeframe and with these two people what they're dealing with to really cultivate

spk_0 anything that will be of any longevity longevity lasting or have any substance truly to it because

spk_0 you see so much with Mary that there is a lack of maturity and a lack of understanding of what the

spk_0 world that they're in the fact that you have this man who being with you is dangerous on its face

spk_0 for him right and she it's almost like she just don't get it yeah it just keep going but all she

spk_0 focuses on is I want to be with you which is all cute they're fine great but we have to still

spk_0 consider the fact that being with you is dangerous to me and because no one's going to sit here and

spk_0 try to take the time to be like well technically she's 160 bucks yeah nobody gonna do all nobody

spk_0 was doing that man man all they doing now really all they go see is that this is a black man with a

spk_0 white woman in this Jim Crow era and that means he he gone he he he he gone I think even in her case

spk_0 I think there's a part where they're in the club and she's thinking about going outside to go and

spk_0 talk to what turn out to be vampires and he was like well they're gonna hurt both of us like you

spk_0 know why would you not consider the fact that they're gonna hurt both of us it wouldn't just be him

spk_0 so I think that's something else to consider as well and you're right about that there's she seems

spk_0 to be a lot less aware and that in and of itself is its own privilege that you can walk around and

spk_0 just kind of do what you feel is best because you do have the ability to kind of cloak yourself

spk_0 yeah and he doesn't have that you know and so just as a background stack and Mary's little storyline

spk_0 is that she grew up with them she is kind of like a family member to stack and smoke because her

spk_0 mother raised them when they were kids so she's got a real connection with them that at least

spk_0 is based in this familial connection but the problem is when she and stat get more involved I

spk_0 guess they start to see the difference in the way that they are able to view the world and stack

spk_0 tries to save her from that by kind of sending her off to marry a white man from Arkansas which is

spk_0 where she ends up moving the reason why she shows up in the film is because she had come down to

spk_0 visit since her mother had passed away but there's there's this part in the in the movie where she

spk_0 says I never wanted to be white I wanted to be with you and this whole conversation about why

spk_0 he did what he did seems to go in one ear and out the other for her she doesn't have like the

spk_0 concept that I cannot do this so in that way it makes the dynamic relationship extremely immature

spk_0 even if there's love there it's still just so immature yeah it really is it's like

spk_0 if that's I think the part that frustrated me so much with this this relationship is the fact

spk_0 that this man is trying to clearly tell you that yes I do love you but we have a set of

spk_0 surface dancers right now that are playing against us you are a white woman I am a black man

spk_0 we are in the south in the 1930s they will end our lives over this this is not something for us to

spk_0 be playing with and as wonderful it is to to love each other sometimes you have to consider and

spk_0 I don't think what she is considering that sometimes the best thing to do is just you to be apart

spk_0 you can't be together yeah and she's not getting that and then like you said it really speaks to

spk_0 the immaturity that this relationship is it's like it really does feel like that relationship

spk_0 has not grown past them being young kids right there's definitely a childish mindset to really

spk_0 to both of them to be honest with you because that goes and he he falls right back into the same

spk_0 happens with her even after trying to be more mature about the situation so they're both

spk_0 they're very childish and and you know there's still a respect for the fact that they do have

spk_0 deep feelings apparently for each other but again it doesn't hold the weight of a mature healthy

spk_0 relationship I think that in this case the concept of survival is something that doesn't necessarily

spk_0 click for Mary but what's so interesting is that we see later on in the movie when they get turned

spk_0 that they find out how to survive with each other which is really interesting because now they

spk_0 don't have to worry about the circumstances and in that way their decision to get turned is

spk_0 probably the best for them if they want to be together yeah I mean that's true but it I will say

spk_0 it definitely gave the at least from from my vantage point it gave the feeling that are these two

spk_0 truly together because they really want to be or because we now have no choice but to be together

spk_0 well that we don't have an option I mean we both vampires right now and got no at far as nobody

spk_0 else can relate yeah and there's familiarity now because we have been through so much together

spk_0 all of our lives and now we're both in the set of circumstances we have no choice we're just

spk_0 here now it really is that kind of the idea of being trauma bonded now yeah and so I guess

spk_0 getting into the whole interracial aspect of it one of the things that I appreciate it is the

spk_0 diversity of the casting because we don't again we don't typically see these types of couples

spk_0 depicted in this specific way you've seen a white woman black male relationship in movies before

spk_0 say the last dance comes to mind but we don't necessarily see say the last dance the same way because

spk_0 we're talking about an era where that was your head yeah because you know people without

spk_0 there doing all kind of different things to you if you had any kind of interaction with people

spk_0 of the opposite race or I hate to say opposite because that's not necessarily the way we should be

spk_0 looking at race but it is at that time considered an opposite race and I think that what I really

spk_0 appreciated is that Ryan Kuhler takes time to be diverse in the way that he does his casting and in

spk_0 this this situation it wasn't any different so when you cast a Haley style field opposite A Michael

spk_0 B Jordan do you think that that creates challenges or reinforces stereotypes anyway I don't think

spk_0 it reinforces stereotypes I actually think that it brings like you said a interesting perspective

spk_0 to an interracial relationship especially said in this time frame and I think it can be carried on

spk_0 even today where you have someone who is in a relationship where they are dealing they understand

spk_0 it and I side of the world that the other one doesn't because they've never had to right there

spk_0 trying to explain to you like hey there's a way I have to navigate through society that maybe is

spk_0 outside of your purview and I'm trying to bring you in I'm trying to help you understand that

spk_0 and you were just dismissing it because we're just still happy in love yeah while that is sweet I

spk_0 guess but it is very mature it's very idiotic and it's very dangerous especially when you have a

spk_0 situation where in their particular dynamic of being an interracial couple he is a black man

spk_0 right and we understand the difficulties like man face back then and now yeah especially you

spk_0 couple them being with a white woman with we see how society especially in America handles white women

spk_0 in relationship with a black man yes definitely so I think it brings up it really brings up

spk_0 an interesting conversation about interacting with an interracial relationship especially when

spk_0 you're dealing with the particular dynamic of being the white of being a white woman and a black man

spk_0 in relation to instead of it being like a black woman and a white man which is interesting because

spk_0 that is a that yeah we've seen movies that portray that dynamic or that type of relationship

spk_0 and it doesn't feel like this like there's not the same usually you would see it take place

spk_0 in modern times right like what what was the movie with Sonata late then something new yeah so when

spk_0 that dynamic it didn't have that same weight of the entire society is against y'all being together

spk_0 you know versus the loving versus Virginia type movie right where you are obviously placing some

spk_0 the same or similar issues at that time frame so yeah that's something to consider but in contrast to

spk_0 smoking Annie smoking Annie's relationship gives very much healthy honey it gives very much weighty it

spk_0 gives very much grown and what I really like is that when he and Annie get together and they're around

spk_0 each other like I said there's a lot of trust but she matches what a smoke would want to be with

spk_0 in terms of like the stability that she offers and I think that that's very clear in their dynamic

spk_0 she is a plus-size woman she's not your typical slim romantic lead and I think that there's

spk_0 something really special about Ryan Cooper choosing to put her in this role because she doesn't need

spk_0 to be skinny to be loved by a smoke even though he is the stereotypical fine-ass black man there is

spk_0 nothing about their dynamic that doesn't feel authentic at least in my opinion and I think that

spk_0 that says a lot about their chemistry as actors they seem to have a lot of respect for each other in

spk_0 the way that they portray these roles but also just the characters themselves Annie is not somebody

spk_0 who needs anybody she is very comfortable in her spirituality she's comfortable in her belief

spk_0 system she's comfortable in her body she feels like somebody who self-possessed and her ability to

spk_0 still have a sense of camaraderie and love and harmony with someone like smoke I think comes from

spk_0 the fact that she is not afraid to also be soft with him there are times where we see that he

spk_0 protects her and even though there's been a seven-year gap in their relationship because he

spk_0 Paul Les, Sushukaro, when he comes back it's like nothing ever left and I love that about their dynamic.

spk_0 Yeah and I think what the the movie did such a great job in is that we see throughout the the movie

spk_0 Annie asserting herself and being that voice and being the one who is protecting the people who

spk_0 knows what's going on who has the answers so when you see those moments where she does kind of

spk_0 allow smoke to protect her and to be there for her you automatically realize this is they have such

spk_0 a good dynamic and they have such a respect for one another that it is easy for her to allow him

spk_0 to take charge in those moments to protect her because she's not having to be submissive

spk_0 necessarily in the sense of she got to just be sitting back here cowering and just having this man

spk_0 protect her it's just like no there's a love here and he wants to make sure she's saved you know he

spk_0 knows she has the ability to keep herself safe she has that ability I love her it is

spk_0 instinctual for me to protect her and she allows that to happen because she also knows there's

spk_0 a respect between the two of them and I think the movie does a good job of showing that that that

spk_0 that that balance right and I think that her being plus size just allows us to see more examples of

spk_0 this because we don't typically get to see this when you see a plus size women represented especially

spk_0 black plus size women in roles there's always like a pigeonhole effect where she is going to either be

spk_0 funny fat and her whole bowl is lose weight or or she's not taking seriously as a love interest

spk_0 there is no portion in this movie that centers on the fact that she is plus size it just allows her

spk_0 to be plus side and love like there's no it's not I love her even though she's plus size it's not

spk_0 that it's I love this person she happens to be plus size like there's just a sense of you don't

spk_0 focus on it and I think that that was an important way to write this because we don't typically see

spk_0 that I think that's a good thing the only other example I can think of in recent times is in Bridgerton

spk_0 where we see um Penelope is yes and Penelope is not they're not focused so much on the way that

spk_0 Penelope looks she's just appreciated and loved by this person she has self-esteem issues they

spk_0 don't necessarily say that it's because she's bigger but eventually your eyes just get used to

spk_0 seeing a woman be loved that's it oh yeah I think that's probably the the best part of this

spk_0 level of representation is the fact you do just get to see a woman being loved the fact of her

spk_0 size it's not really a component of it it's only I mean the only people who probably really bring

spk_0 any kind of attention to it are the audience it's not a something that's brought up really

spk_0 and then we'll be it's not a it's an effector of in this movie it's just this woman being loved by

spk_0 this man and I think what it's even better about the representation when we bring this the fact that

spk_0 her type of plus size woman is not always depicted either we normally see the woman who are maybe

spk_0 big rested big have larger hips but the trimmer ways ones that are more for lack of a better

spk_0 wear easier on the eyes for people when they think about a plus size romantically being with the

spk_0 stereotypical fine man not the woman who kind of breaks some of those ideas who is just a

spk_0 heavier chested woman doesn't have all these big old hips all over the place who is even to bring up

spk_0 the I I expected that she is darker skin too yes very important so she has all of those in her

spk_0 and the fact that we just see her being loved out loud and fully and these things not being a

spk_0 component of that it's not like you said because of this or I love her even though she has

spk_0 yeah it's not something like something you have to forgive yes absolutely you don't have to

spk_0 forgive her for this it's just like well yeah this is because it's hard yeah she owns it one made

spk_0 one made one made one made one give look that damn funny and I love that for her so just going

spk_0 back to what we were saying about the difference in the relationships between stack and

spk_0 marry and then smoking Annie this struggle of thing right so this struggle of thing is not really

spk_0 present in this movie there obviously are differences between the two couples in the way that they

spk_0 are experiencing their relationships but I wouldn't necessarily call them struggle of not in the case

spk_0 that you would look at this and compare it to any other black romance movie that just lets you get

spk_0 your ass beat before you get loved properly it's we can't really compare it to that and I really

spk_0 like that about this and for people who don't know what struggle love is and the black community

spk_0 struggle love is essentially this idea that love has to be accompanied by immense amounts of pain

spk_0 and sadness and overwhelm before you get to the good stuff it's not something that is based on just

spk_0 being with somebody and there's a healthy dynamic between the two of you and you feel safe with

spk_0 each other it's something that always has to involve some awful thing happening whether it's inside

spk_0 the relationship where one partner is being abusive and the other one has to endure it or there's

spk_0 something awful happening to them both as a couple before they can find the love like you see in

spk_0 queen and slim that was not present here the love was just already there like and then something weird

spk_0 happens and now everybody has to kind of continue with that so I think that's an important dynamic

spk_0 for us to kind of look at as well as do these couples in any way resist that or do they embody

spk_0 that narrative um I do think they risk they especially if you want to talk about smoke and

spk_0 Annie that I think they resist it and do a very good job of that is that while you can maybe make

spk_0 the argument that because they have been through some some hard times through the loss of their

spk_0 child the separation maybe you can make that argument but I don't necessarily think that's

spk_0 a fair comparison simply because it is more so these days had a set of circumstances outside of

spk_0 their own doing these are things that have happened to them not them causing them to each other

spk_0 that have which is realistic to life sometimes things just happen to people they're not causing

spk_0 these struggles and trials and their relationship and now they finally found this place um

spk_0 I would almost argue you can maybe see um stack in Annie kind of perpetuating that narrative a little bit

spk_0 um because they have to go through such hardships before they get to I guess if you want to say it's

spk_0 a happily ever after in the end um but I could also see the argument where maybe you're like well

spk_0 it's the same thing they're they have outside circumstances affecting them um so I think this movie

spk_0 and I think that's a good place to be at where you're not a thousand percent sure where they

spk_0 fought particularly with um stack in Annie you can make an argument for either way but particularly

spk_0 if we want to stick with um smoking Annie I think they do a really really phenomenal job of

spk_0 showing you that black love does not have to be traumatic I agree with that it does not have to

spk_0 be hard right and I think that it's a the narrative that's provided in the movie is like you said

spk_0 it's realistic but it also offers what I think is healthy I think that you know even though there

spk_0 was a whole seven year-ass gap honey by the time smoke get up in there smoke getting up in there

spk_0 so it wasn't like there was obviously there were no hot feelings not in the same way that you might

spk_0 expect when you see two people get back together after seven years of being married but that just

spk_0 goes to to show the love that they truly have for one another and you know typically get to see that

spk_0 you know typically get to see that and the thing is they were able to trust each other so much that

spk_0 neither one of them was like well who used messing with them seven years that's real so there's

spk_0 there's clearly an established connection between the two of them that I think is a good thing for

spk_0 us to look at so what's the biggest takeaway about centers and how it portrays love I think

spk_0 the biggest takeaway particularly you want to focus on love between romantic love outside of like

spk_0 love you see between parents and siblings and community all that just if we're focusing on that

spk_0 type of love I think the biggest takeaway is and I think after what I just said is the fact that

spk_0 it really brings home this narrative that we do not have to be sitting over here struggling

spk_0 to have love particularly black people love does not have to be this hard work I mean it's work

spk_0 of course but it does not have to be something that is traumatic to everybody to us both we do not

spk_0 have to be sitting over here beginning our our own each others punching bags and then now we finally

spk_0 like now we didn't have to kick ourselves to oblivion we'll whoop each other's ass all over up

spk_0 and down the place we now can say oh yeah now let's be happy to get on let's be loved like no

spk_0 sometimes it just doesn't have to do that sometimes we're just happy sometimes we're just

spk_0 and love sometimes we built a connection that there's not so steeped in pain and trauma and suffering

spk_0 so I think that's the biggest takeaway I got from the film what about you I would have to agree

spk_0 with that I think that there's a difference between suffering and dealing with something and I

spk_0 think that suffering at some point becomes a choice in relationships you have to think about that

spk_0 they didn't they could have stayed in wallowed about the fact that they had that loss as significant as

spk_0 it was and they didn't they they were able to openly speak about it which I think is very important

spk_0 because when he comes back to the shop to visit her there is a tension that's between the two of

spk_0 them because she tried to figure out what the hell you doing back here and what is it that you want

spk_0 because you all tell what are you really back for what are you really here to tell me and he's

spk_0 open about it it takes him a little bit but he finally opens and he says okay look I do miss you I do

spk_0 think about the things that we went through and I do feel something about what happened between us

spk_0 but they're able to still have the conversation like there's no there's clearly there's communication

spk_0 there that allows them to remember the fact that they love each other and I think that that's a

spk_0 really good way to describe healthy dynamics in relationships well I think that was a really good

spk_0 place for us to stop and we are going to be talking next week on episode two of our five part

spk_0 series on centers about the cultural significance of ancestor veneration something that we we got a

spk_0 lot of thoughts on many many many thoughts on that and as a reminder centers is going to be in theaters

spk_0 this month in 70 millimeter iMAX is definitely worth seeing it if you have a neighborhood

spk_0 theater that allows for this format please go out and see the movie itself is awesome but I think

spk_0 that the experience of going to the movies will be so much better if you see it in 70 millimeter iMAX

spk_0 especially because you don't get to see that on every single movie all right thank you so much

spk_0 guys for listening and we will see you next week bye

Sinners Part 1: Black Love Does not Have To Be a Struggle or Traumatic

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