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S9 E10: 50 Shades of Gray Areas in Policy with Stephanie Shuler
In this episode of 'I Hated Here,' host Hibbiussef and guest Stephanie Shuler explore the complexities of HR policies and the gray areas that often arise in real-world applications. They dis...
S9 E10: 50 Shades of Gray Areas in Policy with Stephanie Shuler
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Welcome to I Hated Here, the podcast for HR and people professionals, making the hardest job in the world just a little bit easier. I'm Hibbiussef.
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When I think about the enforcer, it just means I'm telling you make it happen at all costs. When I think about the translator, again, it's like, okay, I'm telling you how this applies.
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I think when it comes to the policy, I'm going to go back to what I said at the top, which is, is there like a spirit flame keeper designation that we can give?
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What is the policy intended to achieve? And how do we determine that? And sometimes that means that there is an enforcer element to it.
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Welcome back to another episode of your favorite podcast. I'm Hibbiussef. I'm a resident chaos demon sometimes.
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And I'm really excited for today's episode because we're diving into something every people leader has faced, but no one really wants to admit.
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Those moments when the policy is super clear, but the right thing isn't necessarily. And you know the ones when doing correct on paper could actually make things worse in real life.
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When company values maybe clash with the business realities. And when two employees are at odds and both kind of have a point.
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So buckle up because today we're pulling back the current on what it really takes to lead when there's no easy answer.
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And joining me today is Stephanie Schuler. Stephanie is a people first leader who thrives in the messy, exciting middle of where HR strategy meets reality with over 15 years of experience across industries like Ed tech, healthcare, manufacturing, media and entertainment.
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She's led global HR teams, untangled complex employment issues and built programs that actually work for both employees and leadership. Stephanie has scaled HR on compliance functions led post merger integrations, reduced turnover, boosted engagement and launched people programs that stick from investigations and performance management to labor compliance and culture work.
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She has been in the thick of it and she's deeply committed to mentoring HR pros as they grow in their careers and coaching operational leaders to show up in ways that earn trust and driver's holds.
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In short, Stephanie helps both cultures where people actually want to work. And it's an honor to have her on the podcast here today. Stephanie, welcome.
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Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here. I always get so high for eating people's bios like my enthusiasm gets like higher as the bio goes all because I'm like, yes.
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Oh my gosh, me too. I was super excited to learn more about the Stephanie person that you were talking of. So wait, that's not you. It's definitely her everybody. It's my AI agent.
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Too real. That is too real. You and I know there's going to be a day where like our AI agents are just talking to each other and you and I don't even get a chance to talk anymore. Let that day be when I'm not on the surf anymore.
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Honestly, thank you. Just don't deal with it. Okay, I'm so pumped to get into this conversation today because I'm a little bit of like a policy nerd. And when people ask me questions about policies, I'm always like, well, sometimes there's like a right answer. Then there's like the great area.
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Then there's like this other answer that might actually be the better thing you do. So we're going to get into it today and talk a lot about all of that and more.
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And I want to start with like my opening question. Like I've been asking every guest what's one hard truth about work. And I want to hear your one hard truth.
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Oh wow. My one hard truth about work. You don't just have to have one. Honestly, some people are like, live 10 and I'm like, okay, just want to.
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Just want to. Oh my gosh. A hard truth. A hard truth about work. That at the end of the day, it is just you.
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You can work with the friendliest people. You can have the best boss. You can love and be engaged in the mission. But at the end of the day, it is just you. And you have to make sure that in any role that you're in that you're looking out for your best interest because if you don't, no one else will.
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I love that. And so many HR people need to hear that we're always putting everyone first. Honestly.
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Mm hmm. Everyone is really true. And what's that really sick joke? I hate making it. But it's actually so fitting. Like if you drop dead tomorrow, your job would be posted by the end of the day.
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It is sad that I have been as an HR professional in those circumstances where you are literally coordinating the hours for someone.
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And you are talking with the recruiter about when is the appropriate time to repost a job. So it is true.
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Well, we can come back for another episode on that because that is some grim reality. Someone recently on TikTok was like, hey, are you going to do any like optimistic episodes soon or like everything seems to be like really hard and I'm like, yeah.
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I mean, it says I hate it here. So you know, it feels like you're in the right space.
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Things are dark, but we're going to get through them together, which is like what today's episode is all about. So I'm going to start with my
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intro question. Policies often aren't written for edge cases. What do you do when the edge cases are the ones that actually matter most?
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Yeah, I love that question. Honestly, I would love for more HR professionals to start thinking about policies for really what they are.
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It's almost like a stereotype of how you're predicting your employees are going to act or a hypothesis or a best guess.
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And I want you to think about it that way because then that makes you I think more likely to actually challenge it when it doesn't work out, right?
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When you think about policies, you are going out and you're trying to say that on average, if we follow this, we should get the right outcome, right?
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So it's really important to be clear on what the intent is of the policy. When I think about those edge cases, it is where that letter does not appear.
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The letter and the application of the policy does not match the situation and really give you the intent that you are searching for.
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I went to law school and one of the things that one of the professor said early on was the spirit of the law versus the letter of the law.
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And I truly believe that applies with policies as well. So what was really the spirit behind the policy?
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And if you're going through and you're looking at applying a policy and you're saying to yourself, all of the alarm bells are going off that it is not right, then stop and stop looking at the letter and start getting down to what actually needs to happen and back up from there.
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Yeah, that's such a good point. I also forgot you into law school. I should have put that in the bio too.
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Oh my god, at some point it's just bragging, right?
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Yeah, that's all boy, I mean bragging about me because you're spectacular.
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No, it's such a good point about law and I mean, I feel like that prop, do you feel like what you learned in law school, like informs a lot of your HR practice?
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Oh gosh, it actually really does, especially when I started off, I wanted to do criminal law.
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And I wanted to do it on the defense side. I worked with death row inmates and I interned with them.
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This is before I was an attorney, but I interned with them and it was looking for a reason to justify a sentence less than death.
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And in that it was all of the like examining the witness statements and looking at the jury testimony or not to jury testimony, juror statements and reading through testimony and really looking at how do you justify a different outcome?
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That is also fair and gets you to the same point, but that spares this person their life.
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Oh my god, remind me to like never debate you like today's a conversation just to be clear Stephanie, I cannot debate you. I'd be so scared.
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I think you did just fine. I've seen you in action and you might have missed your call.
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I was joking. I could have been a fun defense lawyer because I would be like so dramatic and court and the judge would be like, ma'am calm down.
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Like you don't need to be on the drums, but no, like that is so wild that you did all of that and then went into HR because so much of what we do is like informed by the law, but so few of us actually understand the law or have like a legal any sort of legal framework, which I trust me not.
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But yeah, okay, onto my question because I feel like this happens a lot where we're writing policies and I'm I'm always thinking of the edge cases like I'm always like, okay, so and so is going to do this or this person's not going to that's not going to fit for this person, but have you ever followed policy knowing it could cause harm.
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I actually have I know.
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It's a moment right now saying I'm honestly feel like all of us have I have in the moments where I have done it.
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What I am proud of and what I would encourage folks to do is look, there are going to be times where unfortunately you might have to fly the flag right you've got a disagree and commit.
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Before you get there, at least be the person who disagreed, at least be the person who went and identified the issue and went forward and advocated in my place.
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In my case to date myself, it was going back like 10 plus years and it was a transgender employee and she wanted to just use the bathroom that identified with her gender.
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And after advocating to my boss advocating to legal, the decision came down to what do we have to do legally in the state to be compliant.
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And so that was the lens that the organization took for whether there would be harm.
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I took the lens of this person's dignity and it was something that I held with me and whenever I had a moment to revisit it, I did.
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And maybe a year or so later, I was able to get that decision revisited and allow her to go and just use whatever restroom she wanted to use.
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It's so wild sometimes and we're like disagreeing about these things like I'm almost like I wanted on record that I don't agree with this.
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And I feel like sometimes employees are like, oh, but like HR decided that and sometimes I really want to whisper like if only you knew I didn't want that decision.
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Yes, it's almost like key and peel. I don't know if you ever used to watch them and they would have Obama's anger translator.
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I think HR should have like our own little anger confidentiality translator to be like, I did not come up with this.
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This is not my idea.
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Exactly. Exactly.
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Don't go play about it.
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I feel like my employees now know me well enough to know when something's my idea when it's not my idea.
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And then they just like don't approach me when they know it's not my idea and I'm like, thank God.
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I made it clear to them like this is not it.
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But I mean, I've been there. I feel like every HR person has been there where we've had to write a policy knowing it doesn't always work for everybody.
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And I think the second piece of that they said like you really sat with it and you went back a year later and said, can we revisit this?
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That's like never stop practice.
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Everything changes every day and the more cases and things that come up and information and knowledge, you network and you learn more from others experiences as well.
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Just continue to advocate.
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Yeah, it's tough though in that moment.
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Like I hate the phrase disagree and commit maybe because like I'm a tiny bit stubborn.
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So like I want to disagree and I really want everyone to commit to what I'm doing.
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Not what you know something like working on it personally.
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It's a never ending trait. My mother said I was a stubborn child as well.
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So I think I just carried into adulthood, but no, you're right.
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Just like put it on. I'm always like put it on record. I did not want this or like in the meeting notes.
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I'll be like, HIPAA disagreed.
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I love it.
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But this is the decision we went with just to make it clear.
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So like I mean, there are been in situations where someone comes back to me and they're like, well, why did you decide this?
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And I have to be like, hey, let's take a moment.
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Let's revisit the meeting notes on this X day.
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And I said specifically, because I don't want to be like the I told you so person.
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But when someone comes at me and they're mad at a decision that I never made.
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And it's especially if it's like an executive you work with.
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It's like, hey, let's revisit the notes. I have the receipts.
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It says I did not decide that.
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Exactly.
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And it brings me to my next question because I feel like this is hotly contested.
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Who should have the power to override policy?
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The manager, HR leadership.
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HIPAA, I'm going to give you the lawyerly answer, which is it depends.
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It depends.
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I know.
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I know.
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Right.
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You know, I think that there's a difference between overriding an entire policy and making an exception.
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And I do feel that there are not enough managers who are both empowered and giving a successful framework to make an exception.
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And so in that regard, you know, I think you've got to look at who's closest to the decision.
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And what are the risks that are involved in overriding the decision or the policy?
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And those risks are both from a culture perspective, a business perspective, a management, like a practicality perspective, day to day.
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What is this going to look like?
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And there are some times where you're able as a manager to be able to advocate and say, hey, this is my team.
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I'm looking at a small exception.
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It's going to have minimal impact.
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And if HR is aligned with it, then go for it and do it.
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I think that there should also be some times where you shouldn't even have to check into HR.
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That gets very blurry for folks.
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Especially as HR continues to fight to have a seat at the table.
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But a lot of things that are really close to home, I want managers to feel comfortable owning that PTO attendance.
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Even like dress code, like all of these policies that were really written for a ride variety of folks at a company that can be a hundred, two thousand, ten thousand.
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And who knows many people big, but your team and your group, you're the person who knows best how that's going to work.
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Yeah, I, overriding policies are so funny to me, because I get like kind of mad when certain people want to do it for like reasons that I don't think are justified.
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Versus like the example you're giving were like a manager knows their team best if there's like a sensitive PTO situation.
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Like we have kind of a loose policy around, if you're going to be out, you need to like put your PTO in at least two weeks minimum.
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Like say like someone decides, last minute, hey, I'm really struggling or I really need to go somewhere like, I don't want the manager to have to come to me be like, hey, they put it within the two week deadline.
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What do you think I should do? I want to be like, you know your team best if this person needs to take that time off.
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Like you are an adult who's your best judgment.
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Exactly. You know what you can balance with your team, what you can't balance, how you're going to cover, what's going to happen.
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And I don't think we give enough folks flexibility on the front end, but we demand so much adaptability and resilience from folks on the back end.
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And I think there's got to be a better closing of the gaps and your managers are the folks who can do that for you.
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Yeah, you got to empower them though. Like so few managers are empowered in that way. They're just like stressed from so much work.
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Because honestly, we really do in many ways like take a handbook, we show managers where it's at, we do a training, and then we, when they call us, we're just reading from a handbook.
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And we're saying, oh, well, this is what the handbook says and you go to the manager. Well, how was that helpful? The manager can read the manager can find out what the policy is like, what value have we added there?
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Yeah, or my least favorite situations when an employee goes and reads the handbook and then goes, hey, we don't have a policy on this very specific thing.
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What's our policy? And I'm like, oh, my God, I don't have a policy about that. I have to go write a policy. I got to go like, make sure it's fair across the board.
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Like, the handbook is fascinating to me.
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It really is. It really is. But you know, it's there again to help guide us. And I think that the more for both employees and managers that that word guide can be there to help give you the framework for success.
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That's what's going to really be helpful for folks versus like, here's exactly what you do.
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But it's so interesting. It's like, when I think of policies, the things that come up the most is like exceptions, like, is something fair.
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And I think like consistency and fairness, they don't always look the same. So like, which one would you choose when they're in conflict?
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I'm going to answer the question I want to answer.
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But at some point or something, you know, it's like, I think that it's first defining fairness and what that really looks like.
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We've got to step away even today in 2025. So many HR folks and managers think that fairness is sameness and that is not true.
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And actually shooting for sameness is what's going to get you into trouble with accommodations. It's what's going to get you into trouble sometimes inadvertently even with discrimination.
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Like you've got to look at everything on a case by case basis. It's also a reason why I don't like hypotheticals when I'm talking about HR.
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I like a consistent approach, though. I like sameness and approach.
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One of those key factors that I need to consider any time I'm looking at a policy to apply to make sure that even if I have different outcomes, I'm able to stand behind it.
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And you're able to stand behind it when, if at the end of the day, your decision, whether it's popular, unpopular, you're able to explain it clearly.
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You're able to explain it, I'm going to say confidentially, you're able to explain it without having to implicate too much of the specifics because it's principled.
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You had a problem you were trying to solve. You had an application that you went through and based off of the results, you have outcome A, B or C. And that should take you there.
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I think if you're looking for everything to be the exact same, it's just to cop out. It's an easy approach and it's getting you nowhere.
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Yeah, that's such a good point. I like think about fairness and consistency quite a bit because whenever someone's like, can I get an exception to this rule or what do you think about this?
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Let's do it differently this one time. The thing I always say is like, okay, here's how we historically done it. If we do it differently this one time, here's how this impact sauce moving forward.
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And I feel like once you explain that very clearly, also to executives who might always be asking for an exception or might always be asking for that us to like change the policy every time there's a different circumstance.
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I think then it becomes really clear to them and crystallizes to them. Oh, we are trying to apply a consistent approach rather than like what you said, like always just faulting to like fairness is the same approach.
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Yes, I like to tell managers, even executives, let's take your worst employee, right? Let's call it Felicia. And so this was Felicia.
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I know poor Felicia, you know, by Felicia and right now, Felicia. I know. Yes. Hi Felicia, right? I'm your worst employee, supposedly. If it were her standing in front of you, how would you do this differently or the same?
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Wow. And if you can say with your worst employee, I know people hate hearing that terms, but I'm talking about your lowest performer, the person who's the most attendance issues, what what have you?
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If you can say that you would do the exact same thing, I'm way more interested in the conversation about the exception.
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That's such a good point. I never thought about that because so often when we talk about policy issues, people will be like, well, they're top performer, so we should make this exception.
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Yeah. I'm like, I think there are, I think attendance can be a place where if you've got someone who is a top performer who is always on time, who is asking for something, maybe a look like, hey, I can't work overtime this time.
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Yeah. Can I come in five minutes? You know, I think you work with that, but I think there's a difference between that and oh, well, they're my best performer. So everything goes out the window with them.
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Yeah. Which we see a lot of like young and inexperienced managers do. And often sometimes like CEOs who don't understand their top talent or like what our talent strategy is.
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And that's when we just default to their top performer, give them everything because I can't make them unhappy.
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Yeah. And even your best performers, they honestly see that because your best performers tend to be astute.
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And if they sense that there's unfairness, even if that they are the benefactor of that, they do not like it.
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Yeah. But they're going exactly they don't want to be that person.
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No, but how do you keep those exceptions from actually turning into favoritism?
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Because I've like worked in places where like the favorite Scott, everything that was just like the standard like, oh, they're a favorite. They'll get it. Oh, the founders love them. Give it to them.
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And I was always like, we should not be doing this.
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I transparency is something that I practice a lot. And I encourage folks to practice transparency combined with real talk.
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When you're looking at an exception, especially if it's something that's going to have a visible impact, don't hide behind it and use, you know, confidentiality.
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This is an HR moment. And we can't talk like what can work with your HR partner? What can we talk about? What can we actually bring up in this moment to make like to bring folks folks behind the veil, kind of like a Wizard of Oz moment.
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I mean, I think the more that folks are expecting a culture of accountability and transparency, then that's what limits favoritism.
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Again, can you stand up and talk about it in front of any employee and explain it really clearly?
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Yeah. I also think like employees are smart. They see it. Just like you said, like when someone gets treated like a favorite, people will see that.
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They will talk like I just think human beings are naturally inclined to say to one another, oh, that person's like clearly someone's favorite because they get everything.
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And that's like the slippery slope where I think like you can lose trust so fast if you're constantly making exceptions for one person who then suddenly gets called the favorite and everything.
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And I don't think, you know, I don't want to advocate that any time an exception is made, you're now kind of sitting out and defending publicly or discussing publicly with all employees.
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But I do think when you have those employees that have that moment where they're coming to you and saying, hey, I'd like to learn more about this decision, be open to it, set the framework.
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Here's what I can talk to you about. Here's what I'm not able to talk to you about. And then for what you can, like go hardcore on it and provide them with the insight that they need, not with the goal of getting them to agree with the decision, but with the goal of getting them to understand your process for how you went about considering it.
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Yeah, because then they'll trust you even more like that transparency just increases trust 10 fold where, you know, I always say like we in HR are potentially starting from like the negative with employees.
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We don't even start from like zero. We don't start from like a neutral. I think we start from the negative. And so everything we do every step we take has to build the trust of the employee.
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And so when you are making decisions when there are exceptions, when you roll out a new policy, really taking them behind the veil, like you said and explaining why are we doing this why right now, like who is impacted why I think goes so much further than just thinking like, oh, I've told the key players what they need to know.
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Because there's always an employee that's like, but I wanted to know. And sometimes they deserve to know. I agree. I agree.
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Other times they don't deserve to know. And that's when I say that's none of this. That's called none. Yeah, just kidding.
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Sometimes folks need to hear that though.
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I can't do that. On the note of folks that need to hear things. What do you say to a CEO who only wants things by the book when you know it could backfire with employees?
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I try to get to the heart of what is the problem that they are trying to solve from. Whenever that comes up, there is something. And usually it is very narrow. And they have determined that this is the shotgun approach to hitting that target.
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And it's going. It's going to hit that target. It's also going to have other unintended casualties. Oh my gosh, that's a violent.
spk_0
I apologize for that. I don't know if that would need to be recorded. Do you want to cut that metaphor? Do you want to do it again?
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It's okay. I'm trying to stop using war metaphors because it turns out he's a lot of war metaphors. And I was like, this is not good.
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Oh gosh, I don't know. I mean, the other metaphor is that they're trying to use a hammer.
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Yeah, they're trying to use maybe a hammer or, oh gosh, what is it? What is it against a scalpel?
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You need a scalpel, but sometimes folks are going in there with a hacksaw. There we go. You're trying to go in with a chainsaw when really what you need is a scalpel.
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So I'm trying to get at what is the true problem that needs to be solved and corrected for. And the more that you can understand that, that's where you can start having in the conversations about all of the other harms and risk that they may not be considering the cultural harm.
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The, excuse me, the inconsistent application. Sometimes there are monetary risks depending on what policies they're looking at.
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Discrimination and retaliation. Those are things that can come up as well very easily. Once you start getting very, very not linear, but when you get a very strict with one policy and not with others, there's a reason.
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And sometimes I found even that the policy spokes want to be the most strict with are those that are going to position you for the highest risk of having some of those unintended adverse impact, adverse impact affects with your organization.
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Yeah, I was just thinking like CEOs all on a play by the book. I haven't met many of them to be honest.
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I haven't met many CEOs that are like, yeah, rules. We love them. Even like every CEO who hires HR for the first time is like, HR now I have all these rules. I have to follow and I'm like, there's a reason why we have these rules.
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Like I was like, there's that one podcast with those like tech bros, but they were like, we don't need HR. Like HR is the worst. We're going to run our own companies. And like every time that clipry surfaces every few months or like some tech bro makes a comment about how you don't need HR.
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My thought every single time is good luck getting sued. Yeah, all you need is one employee to slap you with the threat and a lawyer and it's game over for you. So good luck.
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I found that CEOs like rules for other people. And it's almost like this upside down triangle where they really like rules for the folks at the tip of the triangle. And as you are at the base of the triangle, but it just start to go up.
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That's when they want there to be the least amount of rules. That's when the reasons matter, the exceptions matter. But for everyone else, we want to hold them to the highest standards of all. And it should actually be the opposite way.
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Like everyone follows the rules. The folks who should follow the rules rules the most are the folks at the top. And those are the ones that we tend to want to give the most exceptions to.
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And they're the ones that tend to end up in the news for doing things like dating their subordinates. Like there's another CEO that just got fired for this. Like it came out that he was dating someone on his team. And it was just I'm like, there's a reason the rules exist.
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Like you at the top still also have to follow said rules. And when people tend to complain about like executive or CEO behaviors, I almost always find it comes back to like them not following the policy that everybody else has to hold themselves too.
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Exactly. Sometimes I mean, you see that with return to office as well.
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Oh my god. How many CEOs have we seen that are living in different country or as well some in different countries.
spk_0
Exactly. They get to go home four days a week, but everyone else needs to be in this office. The four days that they're at home.
spk_0
Wild. I'm like, why would you ever? How could I ever get on the stage and be like everyone has to come into office? And then I just sit in my beach home.
spk_0
Yeah. The camaraderie doesn't seem to apply to them. I don't know why.
spk_0
Yeah. So there's so to force some reality. I'm like, you're so far removed from like what actual reality is like I'm not surprised you're doing this.
spk_0
I think something that's interesting that's come up a few times in this episode so far is trust and how hard it is to build it.
spk_0
But sometimes like protecting the business and the role that we play means breaking the trust with the people that we're like trying to guide.
spk_0
How can we recover from that? Yeah. I think with that, my experience has been that trust is really broken on two fronts.
spk_0
Right. It's either a questioning of your judgment. So like what kind of decision was made? What was the outcome?
spk_0
Or it's a questioning of your character and your integrity. And so those are two different problems and you got to figure out which lane you are in.
spk_0
I think if you're dealing with something where it is a matter of your judgment and decision making, it's really good to incorporate a keepsane transparency.
spk_0
But with that transparency to give it some teeth really looking at life labs, we talk about a fair framework with our decision making and whether it is a large scale department decision or large scale or decision or something that is just for your team.
spk_0
We go through and we determine whether or not something is forthright. Is it accessible? Is it involved and is it rigorous? Right.
spk_0
So when we're looking at is it forthright? Is it known to all and is it clear to all? Like the standard, the policy, whatever that is.
spk_0
When we're thinking about the accessibility, have we looked at it? The accessibility and the involved? Have we looked at it?
spk_0
Both through some of these edge cases that we talk about as far as folks who are going to be impacted as well as have we either solicited or have we considered different lenses of folks who are going to be directly impacted.
spk_0
And then for the rigor part of it, it's how do we go about monitoring that on a day to day basis or on a regular cadence so that we are mitigating any potential bias or mitigating any potential unintended consequences or risks that we are aware of.
spk_0
And so that gives a good framework when I'm talking about transparency like with your policies and systems and rollouts, especially when it's for decisions that you know may not be well received for you to have those conversations openly, have a structure around it and also continue to hopefully build that trust.
spk_0
Now if it's a character issue, I'm going to say good luck. God bless that one.
spk_0
Yeah, that's tough. Like when people really start to question you as a leader and your judgment, I think that's the hardest one of the hardest bridges to rebuild.
spk_0
It really is. And even if you are a person of sound character, it's hard to rebuild. It really is. And I think with employees, the other piece I have I've had this conversation a few times in my career with employees to say, look, I've given you all the information.
spk_0
I've been transparent. We've had this conversation now one to you know multiple times. Yes, so many times so many times. At some point, if you really do believe that there is an integrity issue, why do you want to be here?
spk_0
I've had this conversation as well.
spk_0
You know, like and that's something that I do have to sometimes put back on employees. Now I'm not going to put that on you when you're right.
spk_0
Yeah, but for sure, I'm not going to I'm not going to gas like I'm not going to get fired and employee, but there's not been enough.
spk_0
But that's come a time where you know, it might be that we have, you know, like we've met an impasse and you've got to choose which direction you're going.
spk_0
Yeah, I always when employees come to me with like real things that they're complaining about. And I know like we either can't change them or it's a structural thing or again, it's like an integrity.
spk_0
They'll never regain trust that person. I have had that hard conversation. Like I'm not holding you hostage here. Let's talk about like, is this where you want to be?
spk_0
And I like my way of going about it is like I'll support whatever decision you make. I'm not going to change my opinion on you, but like ultimately at the end of the day back to your very first point, like you have to do what's best for you.
spk_0
Absolutely.
spk_0
I cannot do what's best for you. You have to do what's best for you.
spk_0
Absolutely. And there are so many times where I have wanted to like I wish I could wave a magic wand and make this disappear for you. Here are the reasons I cannot.
spk_0
Yeah, here's here's what I cannot do. I mean it goes pretty far, but God, I have another maybe like particularly juicy question kind of tricky to ask you.
spk_0
Should we as HR like really play the role of the enforcer of the policy or the translator of the policy?
spk_0
I love that you give me choices that I do not like because I honestly I was that I'm like I'm going to ask you a tricky question.
spk_0
And you're like false. I don't like any of these questions. I don't like I'm of those right.
spk_0
When I think about the enforcer, it just means I'm telling you make it happen at all costs when I think about the translator again. It's like, okay, I'm telling you how this applies.
spk_0
I think when it comes to the policy, I'm going to go back to what I said at the top, which is.
spk_0
Is there like a spirit flame keeper designation that we can give? What is the policy intended to achieve? And how do we determine that?
spk_0
And sometimes that means that there is an enforcer element to it in that if we are getting off track, we've got to go in.
spk_0
And I think it's a again, I think it's a partnership. There are times where you've got to get, you know, the heavy weight behind you and those decisions as HR.
spk_0
So you've got to have that credibility with multiple leaders cross functionally within and a why I already said cross functionally.
spk_0
And then I think there are times. Yeah, where if someone's coming to you and it's be a translator great, but make sure you understand what you are translating and solving for.
spk_0
Whenever someone comes to me with a policy question, I learned this early on. Do not just answer a policy question.
spk_0
And oh, this is what it means without asking. So tell me more about why you came here.
spk_0
Yes. Because what may start off to you as a question about just simple dress code might be a question about sexual harassment.
spk_0
So it is really and that is a true story that I will not get into right now. But make sure you understand why the policy is being or why the policy interpretation is of interest in the moment.
spk_0
Yeah, whenever employees ask me about policies, that's like when my radar goes off.
spk_0
I'm like, I wonder why they're asking that. They're asking a lot of questions about like when they're for one K about they can do it.
spk_0
Like, I'm like, ooh, maybe they're planning a move. But I'm never going to go share my instincts openly. But like, I'm always like, I should ask follow up because no one just like wakes up and it's like, I'm going to ask a question about that one policy.
spk_0
Like, there's probably a motivation as to why they felt like this moment, this question right now, I have to ask it.
spk_0
Yes. And just like an easy go to on that is, I'm happy to direct you to that policy. It's kind of tricky or there are sometimes a lot of nuances with it.
spk_0
Is there anything specific that you're looking for so I can either direct you more closely or give you additional resources or guidance that might not be contained in the policy.
spk_0
And people will usually open up to that.
spk_0
I like that a lot. That is so nice. I'm going to start using that phrase. Is there anything else I could like that? That's fire.
spk_0
I do that sometimes other times. I'm like, do I really want to know what else they're going to ask me?
spk_0
Like, look, the most dangerous question an employee ever asks is, can I see my employee file?
spk_0
Oh, yeah. There is a reason that they want to look at that file.
spk_0
And you better find out what that reason is.
spk_0
There's always a reason from every policy to why the handbook to wait.
spk_0
We just went through the process of having everyone sign their handbook this year and then to make it easier to I wrote a guide like the handbook is like very legal sounding language.
spk_0
You know this. So I really told our employees this is like the legal sounding language that has to go in there because it's a handbook.
spk_0
I also wrote you all a guide to explain all the policies within our terms that's just so all of you understand.
spk_0
And I thought that was like a really interesting exercise. But and since then I haven't gotten many questions about policies.
spk_0
So I'm just like, maybe I did. That's a good tip.
spk_0
Maybe I did something right or maybe all of them have questions and they just don't want me to know.
spk_0
Because I know I'm going to follow up and be nosey like, why are you asking that? What do you mean?
spk_0
But no, I mean, it is it's just so interesting because we I feel like HR attracts a lot of like rule followers because what people don't understand.
spk_0
And I mean, you do because you went to law school like a lot of our job.
spk_0
There's like regulations around it. There are laws around the things we do.
spk_0
And I feel like that's lost on a lot of people in corporate America, especially like startups because they're like, we're just a startup. We can do it ever.
spk_0
And it's like, no, you still are beholden to the law of the land, which like your HR person kind of has to know.
spk_0
So I have this analogy that I say a lot that like HR follow like a lot of rule followers end up in HR.
spk_0
But I'm like, I'm really curious to me because I know I would never describe myself as a rule follower.
spk_0
Have you ever broken any of the rules and been glad that you did it?
spk_0
I love breaking rules.
spk_0
I really do.
spk_0
When we're in the other rule of the world, I mean either me neither hands up.
spk_0
I don't care. I will not follow them.
spk_0
Earlier in earlier in my career, I love breaking the dress code.
spk_0
And I love doing it to prove a point that it is overwhelmingly a silly policy.
spk_0
I understand why we have them, right?
spk_0
Again, those edge cases are that like inevitably someone is going to come in and you're going to say, oh my what is happening?
spk_0
Like let's have a frame for the conversation.
spk_0
But sometimes I mean when you start talking about unnatural hair color or I had, oh, oh, holes you have to wear a
spk_0
Hoesery.
spk_0
If you're a woman, like what does that even mean and look like?
spk_0
If your fingernails can't be a certain length and things along those lines.
spk_0
Now granted when I was encountering these policies, it was in a space where some of them were related to like patient care.
spk_0
And like there were actually reasons for that.
spk_0
But then why are we talking about this at the call center for someone who's sitting at the phone all day?
spk_0
It's so yeah, no dress code is one that I love to break.
spk_0
And then with my employees, PTO and Time Off.
spk_0
I'm going to do a disclaimer.
spk_0
I will not say whether that applies to my current company or not.
spk_0
But what I mean with that is that I want to, you know, I've talked about like giving folks flexibility.
spk_0
I try not to nickel and dime our employees as it relates to Time Off.
spk_0
So if you're going to jet out an hour early, it's okay for you not to use that hour of PTO when I know that you have worked two hours longer the day before.
spk_0
So on my end, I'm going to try to be as flexible with you with your PTO as you are with me.
spk_0
And so that for me is because what I'm looking at it as is, yeah, yeah, it's a policy violation technically.
spk_0
But I'm really looking at it as how do you like weigh the benefits and like the return on investment that you get, right?
spk_0
So I've got the small asset PTO where I'm already getting the time.
spk_0
I've already paid for it so to speak.
spk_0
But what I can get is loyalty and discretionary effort to like 110 fold, however many fold with just small tweaks on don't worry about that today.
spk_0
Because I've seen what you've done for me here.
spk_0
Take the time, take the afternoon and let's move forward and continue keep doing great work.
spk_0
And for that, I will do again, I talk about favoritism.
spk_0
We talk about favoritism earlier.
spk_0
I'll do that with any employee who's giving me that discretionary effort.
spk_0
Yeah, that's a good point.
spk_0
I mean, the putting PTO for like a doctor's appointment in, I'm just like, I'm not going to do that.
spk_0
You already know you're working extra hours.
spk_0
There's like very few people who are only putting in eight hours a day.
spk_0
It feels like anymore.
spk_0
I feel like a lot of people are going above and beyond.
spk_0
And that's maybe a topic for a separate podcast because like maybe they shouldn't be going above and beyond.
spk_0
But I'm like, for a doctor's appointment, I don't need to put PTO and just go to the doctor and come back.
spk_0
It's different if you're going to miss like, I've got this webinar that I like if I'm going to miss this webinar that we're recording.
spk_0
And it's a big, you know, that's different, right?
spk_0
But if at the end of the day, you're missing kind of like your flexible time during the day where you're managing your priorities.
spk_0
I'm trying to work with you as much as I can.
spk_0
Yeah, I feel like a lot of rules in HR deserve to be broken because they, they're, I have found a lot of time.
spk_0
And you can definitely correct me on this from wrong that the laws are like the bare minimum.
spk_0
And oh, and then when you're following them and you're writing policies about the bare minimum, you miss the opportunity to like actually go above and beyond for your employees.
spk_0
And so when I think of like breaking laws, I think of not breaking laws. Sorry, I'm not breaking any laws.
spk_0
But the record should not break, I break any laws here.
spk_0
And just a little bit of, but like when you go above and beyond or you're like breaking a policy and actually doing more for the person, that's where I think like we have a lot of potential that like sometimes we just are encouraged to do the bare minimum with like.
spk_0
Or like regulations and we could do so much more.
spk_0
Hiva, it's like you're my spirit animal because the policy and the law is the floor and the culture is your ceiling.
spk_0
And again, as much as we can help fill up those gaps and a lot of that can be done on a day to day basis with your managers, knowing, knowing your teams and what makes sense.
spk_0
What is the intent here and how does this work with application.
spk_0
And I also want to say because I'm sure that there are folks watching this in so many different like audiences or like fields and industries and different roll types.
spk_0
Everything does not work for every company and every roll type.
spk_0
And so I use like PTO as an example, that's not going to work for all roles, that type of flexibility.
spk_0
But somewhere, somewhere there is something, a policy that can work for your role and your organization and figure out what are those moments to bring that culture in and have that flexibility.
spk_0
Yeah, you always have to think about what is the environment, what is the organization like when someone's like, well, that's not the right tool for me or that policy doesn't work for me.
spk_0
I always say what works for me is not necessarily going to be exactly what works for you.
spk_0
Like you look at your organization and figure out and taking into consideration to like industry, like you said in healthcare, maybe there are rules about how long your nails are.
spk_0
Maybe there are rules about like your hair has to be in a ponytail and certain industries because your hair could be a risk.
spk_0
That's not for me. I just do a desktop.
spk_0
I do a knowledge working email based job. Like I can do flexibility when it comes to those things.
spk_0
But that's not the case for a lot of people who listen to this podcast, a lot of people who have like frontline jobs too.
spk_0
It's very different.
spk_0
spk_0
Exactly.
spk_0
And with probably the juiciest question, I might have asked all of this.
spk_0
So although I've asked you a lot of juicy questions and I love that you have loyered me out of them, but it's okay because you answer them in the end.
spk_0
What's one policy in your career that you wish never existed?
spk_0
I said it. I alluded to it a little bit earlier. It is dress code. I wish that we did not need or have dress code policies more than them becoming like very, I think they are just havens for cultural discrimination.
spk_0
And religious discrimination in particular.
spk_0
I, it's like I wish that we really could just have a dress code policy that says dress for your day.
spk_0
And that's it. And that is the expectation. I understand why it does not work.
spk_0
The other piece is that managers in my experience who have come to me about dress code policy.
spk_0
It has been because they are trying to avoid overwhelmingly, avoid dealing with more serious policy issues.
spk_0
And so the dress code becomes like this objective way for me to manage someone out for me to enforce to the letter of the law so that Felicia can go home.
spk_0
And I cannot stand that. So yes, I wish we did not have to have the need for dress code policies.
spk_0
I think I might have told you this on like the very first call we talked, but I did a keynote in New York in May.
spk_0
And it was on like bridging the generational gaps in the workplace, like how to think about having five generations in the workplace and what does it mean.
spk_0
And I said, I've finished and I had like 10 minutes for questions. I was like, okay, what questions do people have for me?
spk_0
And the first question somebody asked the eraser hand and asked about dress code policies.
spk_0
And they're like, well, Gen Z just has like a different, a different definition of what's professional.
spk_0
And I was like, well, I mean, what is professional?
spk_0
Look, it bothers my mother to this day. If I go to church and I don't have a slip on under my dress, that is just
spk_0
I don't even know where I could buy a slip from anymore to be quite honest with you.
spk_0
And I know everything could be all Amazon. Even like visible tattoos.
spk_0
When you think about this over generations and like the meanings and the frequency, not frequency, but like how much you see it out and about.
spk_0
Completely different. So it really is a shock for some folk to go and see someone with a tattoo.
spk_0
And you know, that's visible. They think of it as unprofessional.
spk_0
And we are, I mean, that's not even something that crosses my mind these days.
spk_0
It doesn't stop them from doing their job. I mean, that's like with me where I had the one manager who told me my curly hair was on professional.
spk_0
And then like I wore my hair street for like 10 years at work.
spk_0
Oh gosh.
spk_0
And the hair is often in the dress code policies that we need to get rid of.
spk_0
And you're right. Like it's like what is professional? And then you put these cultural biases into the dress code and used to keep people down.
spk_0
It's.
spk_0
Don't get me started on the dress code.
spk_0
I didn't know I hear it.
spk_0
You heard it here first. We're getting rid of dress codes.
spk_0
Actually, we actually had at one company. The dress code was where whatever makes you comfortable.
spk_0
But please know yoga pants in the office was the actual dress code because they were like yoga pants are not like we don't want people wearing yoga pants to work.
spk_0
And I was like, well, they're really comfortable though.
spk_0
Like, well, they picked a line. They drew it. They picked one. They drew it. But I mean, I feel like everything else was like quite fair.
spk_0
If the one line was no yoga pants, everything else felt really genuinely fair to everyone else. I liked it a lot actually.
spk_0
But I mean, I did love my yoga pants. Just couldn't wear them to the office anymore.
spk_0
I've had such a fun time with you today. We're definitely going to do this again. I am like envisioning an episode where I bring you like five wack laws.
spk_0
And I have you help me debunk them like laws that we shouldn't should not be following at work.
spk_0
Oh my gosh. I love that.
spk_0
Don't tell anybody. But we're not breaking any laws. We're very clear.
spk_0
We do not break any laws. Wait, wait. No, I'm playing. We really didn't break any laws.
spk_0
Oh my god. I can't wait to have you back. You're definitely going to be a hit with the audience. And they're going to want to all talk to you.
spk_0
And I'm going to be like, yeah, I'm just so grateful. We had time together today and that you entertained me.
spk_0
And you answered my cold DM as somebody who like admired you from afar for so far for so long. Then like having you reply to my DM. I was like, yay.
spk_0
Oh my god. That is such an honor because I told you it's like closet like a stalker. Not really, but yes, really.
spk_0
So I feel like we just became best friends.
spk_0
We just became friends. Oh my god. We just become best friends. That's me every episode. It's either me saying that or like me being like I just cried.
spk_0
And everyone of us is like, she has so many feelings. And I'm like, I do. I'm a lot. I tend to cry during this. I'm like, I sleep alone.
spk_0
But no, in all seriousness, thank you. Thank you for talking about like the messy, great area that comes with policies and helping me just talk through.
spk_0
How do we get to be better practitioners by understanding that like the policy doesn't have to be everything that there is some flexibility and we can still maintain like fair and equitable workplaces.
spk_0
Even when we have to do things like make exceptions or play in the gray area.
spk_0
Absolutely.
spk_0
Thank you for having me.
spk_0
Of course.
spk_0
Thanks for tuning in.
spk_0
Keep up with all the latest HR resources by subscribing on Apple, Spotify, Google, or wherever you listen.
spk_0
And if you love I hated here, tell an HR friend. I'll see you next time.
spk_0
Thanks for tuning in.