Phoebe Gates on Proving Herself Beyond Her Family Name

Interactive Transcript

Speaker A I could have chosen, you know, a career that didn't make money. I could have focused on whatever, you know, was my passion, and my family would have supported me as long as I was working. Now, do I feel pressure to prove myself? Yes, 100%. But I actually think that that's a really, really positive thing.

Speaker B I'm Carly Zakin. And I'm Danielle weisberg. Welcome to 9-5ish with the skin. We've run into so many questions over the years and had so many, many moments where we needed advice and we got it from women who'd been there. And that's what we're bringing you with this show each week. We're helping you get what you want out of your career by talking to the smartest leaders we know because we know your work life is a lot more than nine to five. All right, let's get into it. Hi, everyone. Today's guest is Phoebe Gates. She's the co founder of the fashion tech startup FIA and co host of the Burnouts podcast on the Unwellness Network. Phoebe grew up in Seattle as the daughter of two people you might have heard of, Bill Gates and Melinda French Gates. But Phoebe has steadily carved out her own path in entrepreneurship. She attended Stanford University, where she met her roommate turned best friend turned co founder Sophia Kiani. They quickly bonded over fashion and the challenge of shopping sustainably without wasting time or money. So while in school, Phoebe and Sophia started building what would become FIT fia, which officially launched earlier this year. FIA uses AI to find the best prices for clothes, from vintage clothing to high fashion items. The company boasts some pretty iconic investors, including Kris Jenner and Spanx founder Sarah Blakely. Phoebe and Sophia also debuted their podcast the Burnouts earlier this year, which is all about the unfiltered reality of building a company with your best friend in your early 20s. Phoebe, welcome to 9-5ish.

Speaker A Amazing. I'm so honored to be here today. I've been listening to the podcast for a long time. Actually for years now. So I feel incredibly lucky to be on.

Speaker B Aw, thank you. Well, I'm excited. And reading that intro, I was like, oh my gosh, this feels like Carly and I 10 years ago. So this is exciting. I've seen what you're building and I was like, I want to talk about this because I feel like you. You and Sophia are building something together. And I love the story of female teams, co founders going out there as a unit and lifting each other up. So with that, we're going to get into a lightning round quick Questions, quick answers. What's the first job you got paid for?

Speaker A Babysitter.

Speaker B Were you good?

Speaker A No, definitely not. It was like mostly like family, friends, kids that I would babysit for from school, but that was as old back as middle school.

Speaker B Do you have any secret hobbies or skills?

Speaker A I'm a big puzzler. This is very dorky, but if I could spend time doing like a puzzle, that would be like my detox. A wooden puzzle late at night. Like, I'd say that's kind of my secret. Pretty nerdy habit.

Speaker B Carly has the same habit and she actually is such a nerd she got carpal tunnel from it during the pandemic.

Speaker A So that's very valid. I'm surprised that that didn't happen to me.

Speaker B It tracks. What's something you wish people would ask you about?

Speaker A I wish people would ask me more about the actual founder experience. I think people see a lot of it glorified on social media of things going well or we're only posting when we're hitting a milestone. But I wish people would ask about what it actually looks like to talk to users or to review designs or realize that a feature that you've pushed doesn't work. And so I think that that's what I wish people would ask.

Speaker B Okay, so on that note, what's something about being a founder that has surprised you from what you thought it was going to be like to what it actually is?

Speaker A There's kind of a difference of what it looks like when you start the business versus overtime. And now I'm having to kind of roll myself back and almost fire myself from a certain amount of roles, whether that's accounting or specific data tasks. And so I think I thought that being a founder meant doing everything. And now I've realized it's really about very critical prioritization of time.

Speaker B I want to ask about your co founder dynamic. So who is more likely to cold call or cold email someone?

Speaker A That's very hard. Both of us will rip a cold email like nobody's business. That's a trait that we've done ever since college. I mean, really we had no plans for this to be a business, but when we were really originally building the shopping plugin for desktop, it would only show you secondhand. And we actually reached out to probably 300 partners between the two of us and we would spend entire Saturdays in our office dorm room doing cold emailing. So I'd say that one's definitely equal.

Speaker B To who's more risk averse. Sophia, who is more likely to walk up to Someone at a networking event.

Speaker A Sophia. Sophia is incredibly well spoken. She's also a conference queen. I mean, she has done a bunch of speaking stuff. Her work with climate change. She went around the world speaking at different climate events about her nonprofit with the largest youth on nonprofit climate cardinals. So she has no conference fear, no social anxiety.

Speaker B Okay, two final lightning round questions. What is the worst piece of advice you've gotten so far?

Speaker A That's a really good question. I think the worst piece of advice that I've gotten is there's a stereotype of what two founders should look like, and that one needs to be external facing and the other needs to be solely internal facing and technical. Both me and Sophia are largely untechnical founders. Both of us are largely external facing. And so I think that that was a myth that I got told at Stanford. And probably the worst piece of advice was, oh, you shouldn't start something with somebody just because you have similar skill sets.

Speaker B We have the same thing, and I think it's really good for your relationship that you can toss it aside. Okay, fill in the blank. The biggest misconception people have about Gen Z founders is.

Speaker A That we don't know what we're doing.

Speaker B Oh, that's so interesting. As a millennial, I would be like, no founder knows what they're doing. Okay. We always like to start with how our guests grew up. I mean, you are pretty atypical, meaning that your parents are widely known philanthropists and entrepreneurs. What were some of the values that they instilled in you growing up that had nothing to do with work and much more about how you approached life, how you approach risk taking?

Speaker A Yeah, I think a really big value in our house and just the backup. So I grew up in Seattle, which was a really purposeful decision by my parents. I could have grown up in LA or New York and been in the spotlight, but very purposely. I grew up in Seattle in a very small private school system. So I go to the same school that my dad had gone to. I had an incredible community all around me. I was doing math team. I had friends who I've now had for, frankly, 20 years that I've known since I was 2 years old. And so I got to be around this really supportive community where one thing that was really, really instilled in us from a young age was this idea of kindness. That was the biggest thing. If my mom heard you were mean to somebody, you would be grounded, I mean, for weeks. So I think that really principle of carrying your values on your shoulder and being kind to people and then also this responsibility of. To whom much is given, much is required in terms of a sense of responsibility, of, okay, the world is your oyster, kid. You're going to have your education paid for, you're going to have opportunities, but you need to do something with. That was always a key value that we were given. And then I'd say the other one is really just hard for me. I was six years old when my dad retired from Microsoft, so I don't remember a ton of his Microsoft days. I do remember him going to board meetings or doing strategy reviews, but particularly I got to see the rise of the foundation between my two parents. So seeing the amount of time and effort that they put on that through strategy review weeks throughout the dinner table, going through different things they were investing in or looking at. What do metrics look like? Why has this been challenging? And I always felt like as a child, I was never talked to as a kid. They were having conversations and we were all there and contributing, and I think that was really important as well. So I'd say kindness, hard work, and then just the responsibility to do something with your life.

Speaker B So if I have this right between you and your siblings, you're the only one so far that's gone into entrepreneurship.

Speaker A You know, I think it's. It's tricky. It would be tough if me and my siblings were all doing the same thing, but coincidentally, we've all done very different things. So my sister is in residency at Mount Sinai doing pediatrics. My brother works in D.C. in politics and loves, like, the history side of things. He's actually getting his PhD. He's crazy. He got like, three degrees while he was undergrad at UChicago in four years, and now he's getting his PhD. So he'll be a doctor before what? He's 26. So I'm the only one, actually, of my siblings without the Dr. Gates title, which is definitely a source for being teased. But I think it's incredibly. Yeah, I think it's incredible that we've all gone into different fields.

Speaker B That is amazing. And you guys are all so young and killing it in those fields. Fields. Do you feel like it makes it easier that you've gone into something else, or is it also harder in a way? Because it is in some ways more akin to what your parents have done.

Speaker A I think it makes it easier that we're all doing different things, because when I'm calling my brother for advice or I'm talking to my sister, we have very different perspectives on things. Right. So I'm able to get like, her real true advice. And I think the same way when she talks to me about crazy shifts that she's working in peace. She's 24 hour shifts this week. I. I'm able to give her advice of like, hey, from someone outside of the system. Like, this is nuts. You know, take a break, relax, or I'm able to learn fascinating things from her. It's funny though. Originally I wanted to be pre med. I look up so much to my sister. She's six years older than I am and she also went to Stanford. And so I thought, okay, I'm going to be pre med just like my sister, but I'm going to get better grades than her. I'm totally going to do this thing and I'll go to a different med school, though. And I honestly think it's amazing that I discovered my own path outside of medicine so that we're doing different things.

Speaker B You have an amazing presence about you. Like, you speak so confidently for someone that is just starting out professionally and is also young. Where does that come from?

Speaker A Fake it till you make it, baby. I mean, it's really practice, right? I don't wish upon my worst enemy having to watch our first three episodes of the Burnouts, the ones that we didn't publish, the ones that are sitting in our archive of me rocking in my chair or stuttering and fidgeting. I think it's really practice makes perfect. So I've been on a number of calls where I've messed up, where I've sounded unconfident, where I didn't speak well. And so I think over time learning, hey, that didn't work well. Okay, let me try. This has really, really been core to me. I remember watching something that Jay Shetty said and he mentioned that you don't feel like a natural until you're like 90 episodes of the podcast in. And for me, that really hit home of okay, if I'm going to be doing business, I'm going to be on calls. I need to hit those reps just all the time learning. And I think the good thing about me and my co founder Sophia being so most is we're able to give each other honest feedback of, hey, here's where you messed up on that call. Here's where you did good. And so I hope it's just a constantly improving cycle. But yeah, practice makes perfect. And I've made plenty of mistakes where I've gone off calls and I was like, oh, wow, I made an absolute fool of myself. And I think that that's helped me adapt. And then beyond that, I think the podcast is the greatest skill for, you know, just practice.

Speaker B I want to talk about the dynamic with you and Sophia. So you built a business together, are building business together, co founders, and then you're also doing the podcast together, which is for you guys, like, you know, separate from the business itself. For us, it was media network, so it was all in the same thing. I sometimes feel like people ask us, how do you like, do you still like each other? It's been 13 years. Like, do you secretly hate each other? And I'm like, honestly, no. Like, I am having dinner with her Saturday, and I don't have to. And one of the things that I really attribute that to was having the same vision of success. And then also we had really clear boundaries. What are some of the things that you and Sophia are putting in place? Or also, because this is new for you guys, are there areas where you're learning when it's tougher to give each other feedback in the friend tone versus in the business tone?

Speaker A Of course, I think it's always a journey of learning, but I think in any great relationship, you have in communication, right? So she's able to tell me when I make a mistake, I'm able to tell her. And because we both care about the relationship, we both care about the business. We also take time every single week, which is really important to us, to invest in a relationship. So we'll take an hour every week to just focus on strategy, where the two of us are going through. Okay, what's going well in the business, what's not going well, what can we improve on? Where can we improve our relationship? Where can we improve communication? So I think having time to invest in the relationship and set mutual goals is really, really important. And one thing that we've learned over time, okay, even when a week gets busy, we need to make time for that because just so crucial to make sure that we're in sync. And then I think another thing is, as the business grows, it's kind of great that we both have separate lanes that we focus on. And, you know, we're both working towards the same mission of having the company succeed. But Sophia is owning a lot of the marketing, I'm owning a lot of the operations side. We're working together on product. And so I think both having, you know, different lanes that we work on and then coming together on the product end is really, really important. And then I'd say just having time to mutually think and align on everything. Plus, I Think being trapped in a tiny little college dorm room with somebody really trains you well to realize, oh, okay, that thing they do gets on my nerves. Okay, let's communicate about this. And I think, honestly, it's a function of we know each other incredibly well, and so we're able to have that communication.

Speaker B What is, like, the craziest question someone has asked you about your dynamic with each other?

Speaker A People always want us to dislike each other or get in a cat fight. It's always like, what's the worst fight you guys have gotten in? What's the worst argument you've gotten in?

Speaker B Yeah.

Speaker A And, like, I don't know. When she didn't clean her side of the dorm room, like, I don't know what you want me to say. There isn't, you know, there isn't a huge there there, because we're always like, oh, that shouldn't be that shade of blue. Okay, let's discuss this. Okay. We'll push your idea, and then we'll see if the stats come back. This decision probably didn't even matter. We just need to move on to the next thing. And so I think there's always this, you know, kind of desire to have the two feuding women. Because it's fun, right? In the media, we love when Cardi B. And Nicki Minaj hate each other. We don't like to see two successful women working together. And especially this kind of stereotype of two women who are very outspoken, very loud, kind of, like bold, working together. People want there to be some kind of drama there, because I love drama. You know, everyone does. And so I think that that's, you know, something that I think is a real double standard. You would never hear questions like that asked to two male co founders.

Speaker B Totally. We used to get all the time, do you share a bedroom? That was our. Our go to. That we would get. And I think it totally goes back to, like, the. Everyone is looking for the story that sells, which is, when does this blow up? We used to get asked all the time, like, do you feel like the stereotype that millennials are entitled is valid? What is a Gen Z stereotype that especially in the workforce, that you feel is just off?

Speaker A I think it's funny because there's always these stereotypes about a generation being lazy as you see that generation enter the workforce, whether it's kind of the I'm entitled millennial entering the workplace. And then, okay, now millennials have gotten older, and so we've kind of given up on that stereotype. For Gen Z, it. Okay, they're lazy, they care too much about work, life balance, they just want to make their tiktoks. I think it's very much you have this with each generation. As you see more of a, a junior age group go into the workforce and have to adapt to corporate culture, have to adapt to business and learn certain things. But I'd say that that's generally false. I've met some of the most hardworking people who are Gen Z and also I haven't met a lot of entitled, you know, millennials. So I really think it's just a function of. As a new generation enters the workforce, we like to brand them with stereotypes because it's like, oh, these people don't know the lingo or the practices or what it looks like to be professional in the workplace.

Speaker B Your last name can cut both ways, I would assume. How often do you feel like you have to prove yourself to others, especially starting off as this is your first business and how often do you feel like it's helpful in opening doors?

Speaker A This is such an interesting question because I don't think that there's any way that I can say it's a hardship for me. The reality is I had an incredible childhood. My entire education was paid for. Sophia paid for her own education. Right. I have unlimited opportunities in terms of I could have chosen a career that didn't make money, I could have focused on whatever was my passion and my family would have supported me as long as I was working. And so I think it's really important to step back and say that now. Do I feel pressure to prove myself? Yes, 100%. But I actually think that that's a really, really positive thing. There's a really interesting study that says like stress basically is only bad for you if you think it's bad for you. So people who endure like long sustained periods of stress, I'm not talking like trauma, but I'm talking like mid tier levels of stress, like work, et cetera, school, people who sustain that for a long period of time, it's actually only bad for them in old age if they continually think that it's bad for them. But if you say this is actually really good for me, this is helping me improve, then it's actually really beneficial to those people and we don't see the negative effects of stress on them. For me, I think that having to prove myself is really important. Any 22 year old woman has to prove myself. Having successful parents, sure, that adds a layer to it. But also so many doors are open for me because I do have successful parents and because our family is close, I'm able to call my mom and get support, you know, so I've read.

Speaker B About both of your parents reactions to you starting on the fundraising part. I think there's been a lot of quotes about that and. And you raised the money with Sophia. Outside of your parents, what was scary to you telling them about the idea or doing your first pitch, like external pitch for capital?

Speaker A Definitely was not nervous about telling my parents. My parents were very hard and fast on, you cannot drop out. And luckily I went to Stanford. That is super, super lenient on independent studies. Being able to get your work done. They want you to stay and they're willing to do flexible curriculums. Actually, I'm going to take that back because that's not necessarily true. I think I was mostly scared when I told my parents I wanted to drop out. They were like, absolutely not. Which in retrospect was a really, really good decision because I was able to finish my degree while doing the company and I've now graduated. But I wasn't nervous to tell them. Of course I was nervous for my first investor pitch, right? Or my first external facing pitch, like any entrepreneur would be. I had no clue what I was doing. And one really important thing that we did, and I would advise anyone else to do this, is to find a trusted advisor that you can pitch to many, many times. And at the end of the call, they're going to tell you everything you did wrong. I kid you not, me and Sophia's first pitch was literally 35 minutes. And I'm not talking like it was a conversation with us in the person. Luckily this was like a friend of a friend, but it was like us just talking at this person saying the exact same thing over each other. It made no sense and it went over time and they, I don't think they even got to breathe throughout the call. Right. And so having an advisor where you can practice your pitch and learn. Okay, I messed that up. Okay. I should focus on this side. Okay. These might be question someone asks. We had an incredible mentor, Joanne Bradford, who used to run partnerships at Pinterest. She was the president of Honey, and she let us do just tons and tons of practice pitches with her. And I think, you know, at the end of that, I'm like more nervous about the feedback that Joanne's going to give than who I'm going to get from some investor. And so I think having that practice was really important for us.

Speaker B Give us the quick elevator pitch on what FIA is and why Listeners should check it out.

Speaker A So Fiat is the Google flights for shopping. You're going to download us, and we're a plugin that follows you as you shop. And in one click, we'll show you if the item that you're looking at exists cheaper somewhere else, if it's on sale, if it exists secondhand. And we're going to show you what the retained resale value of that item is. Moreover, now we are expanding into being a holistic shopping assistant. So we're doing things like discovery collections. You can save your favorite items, get alerts if there's a price drop. You can get curated recommendations for you. You can search for any item within the app and find the best price possible.

Speaker B So you only launched about four months ago. What's been the hardest thing so far and what's been the most critical piece of feedback?

Speaker A I'd say most critical piece of feedback is search is so important for us, right? Our value prop is getting you the best price within one click. So if our search doesn't deliver on that, that's super, super important. And that's something we always knew going to market, we knew our search algorithm was not perfect. We knew it was something we'd have to improve on over time. So I'd say that's a really, really key piece of feedback. We continually get that we are improving out and rolling out, like our next model this next month, which we're really excited about. And then most important thing. You said most important or most challenging?

Speaker B I said challenging, but you can answer it however you would like.

Speaker A Yeah, I'd say most challenging is really once you get to market, there's a bunch of momentum and excitement, and it's really hard to sift through that noise and find, okay, who is actually using us because they like the product and listen to only their feedback. Because if they have critical feedback, that really, really matters. And so I think for us, like the first, you know, two, three weeks after launch, we're so excited. We're getting so much feedback. It was overwhelming. And then we had to say, okay, a month in, let's find the power users who are actually using Fiat and figure out what their complaints are, and then we can use them to build our roadmap. And so now we do something where every other week we have 40 of our power users come to the office in New York and we literally have them roast the app and tell us what they hate. So I think the most difficult thing is the overwhelming amount of voices that you get and then actually honing in to Find your target consumer and to build for them.

Speaker B I have a listener question this person wants to know. You've undoubtedly learned so much from your parents around entrepreneurship, but what is one thing that you've disagreed with them about when it comes to business?

Speaker A Oh, that's a really good question. I think most of our disagreements would be about just me and my dad because he's not an expert in the e commerce space. Right. About the size of the opportunity and then how much the e commerce marketplace fluctuates with different market changes, tariffs, et cetera. So, like, the longevity of building an e commerce company I think is something that the two of us would definitely disagree about.

Speaker B That's fascinating. That is a very cool thing to think about because I think anyone would think your dad is is such a legend. But you're right, he's not probably shopping at the same level online that we are. So, final two questions. Who is someone else we should have on our show?

Speaker A Sarah Blakely.

Speaker B Yes, we've had Sarah on.

Speaker A I want her on the guest.

Speaker B She's the best, right? And final question for you. What is something that you admire about Sophia?

Speaker A Sophia is the most loyal person you will ever meet. It doesn't matter who you are, where you are. If she meets you and you are in Sophia's orbit, she will fight for you. She will do anything for you. And then beyond that, she's one of the hardest working people I've ever met. If it needs to get done, Sophia Kiani will never leave the office and she will get it done. Beyond that, incredibly smart, which matters too. But yeah, I'd say loyal and hardworking are the first two of many that come to mind.

Speaker B Phoebe, congratulations on the launch and good luck with everything.

Speaker A Thank you so much. For those listening, joinphia.com, let us know what you think and give us all the feedback so we can continue to improve.

Speaker B Thanks for listening to this episode of 9 to 5 ish with the skim. A new episode will be in your feet again next Wednesday. And if you want to keep up with us in between episodes, follow us on Instagram arlyanddanielle. It's a really good account, I promise.

Speaker A Sam.

Phoebe Gates on Proving Herself Beyond Her Family Name

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