Episode 503: Jewish Music - Elana Arian

Interactive Transcript

spk_0 This is Judaism Unbound Episode 503, Jewish Music.

spk_0 Welcome back everyone, I'm Dan Liebinson, and I'm Lex Roefberg.

spk_0 And today we're excited to be kicking off a series of episodes on the topic of Jewish Music,

spk_0 Past, Present, and Future. We'll be featuring a terrific group of gas,

spk_0 some of whom are prominent musicians who create music you may have already sung with your

spk_0 communities and others who are specialists in ethno-musicology.

spk_0 You can help us better understand what Jewish music did and how it functioned in the past and

spk_0 what it does and how it functions today, and of course how it might function tomorrow.

spk_0 Listeners have asked us to explore Jewish music over the years, but we didn't quite know how to do it.

spk_0 It's tough to talk about music sometimes, instead of just singing together, but we're going to

spk_0 give it a try. We also think that these expansive conversations about music will intertwine very

spk_0 directly with other themes that we discuss often on this show, and that they'll be relevant to

spk_0 all sorts of other Jewish topics. Our first guest in this series is Elana Ariane.

spk_0 She actually deserves credit for helping this unit come to be because she sent us an email a while

spk_0 ago with a whole vision of what a set of conversations like this could look like. We're grateful to

spk_0 her for that vision and we're hopeful that this series will be a meaningful one for you.

spk_0 But before we dive in, Lex, can you share this week's Judaism Unbouncements with us?

spk_0 I can first and foremost, a practical announcement on Bouncement. Dan's audio is not ideal today.

spk_0 There was some travel mayhem basically leading to Daning to record this episode in an airport

spk_0 on a phone. And so his track is not as great as usual. We apologize for that. Now for the non-practical

spk_0 Unbouncements. We've got Judaism inbound. Judaism Unbounce entered a Judaism class, which began last

spk_0 Tuesday. But if you're hearing this, you can still sign up. But this is truly, truly the very

spk_0 last chance you can. So we allow folks to sign up between the first and second class of Judaism

spk_0 inbound. And then you can watch the recording of the first one and catch up. So you can head to

spk_0 JudaismUnbounce.com slash classes to register. But truly, if you don't in the next couple days before

spk_0 the second class occurs on Tuesday, October 7th, you will not be able to register anymore. So

spk_0 definitely head to JudaismUnbounce.com slash classes right now. Financial aid is available.

spk_0 Also, we have four other classes that have not begun yet, but will be in a few weeks,

spk_0 financially available for those as well. There's anti-Semitism unbound with Shashana Brown,

spk_0 Jewish Liberation and exile with Hava Shapiro, Jubilee's with me, and Talmud Unleashed with

spk_0 Olivia DeVora Tucker. We're still thrilled to feature all these awesome teachers. And again,

spk_0 hope that you will register at JudaismUnbounce.com slash classes. Last Unbouncement, Shabbat Unbound,

spk_0 our year-long Shabbat service where we hone in on one prayer each month begins next week.

spk_0 So this episode is coming on on October 3rd and our first Shabbat Unbound of the year is October

spk_0 10th. We will be kicking off our year-long service. We hope that you will register at JudaismUnbounce.com

spk_0 slash Shabbat. We'll be connecting once a month, journeying our way through the Shabbat service

spk_0 from now through just under a year from now. So we hope that you will attend. Now back to Dan.

spk_0 Awesome. So now a bit about our guest today, Ilana Arian. Ilana Arian is a composer,

spk_0 multi-instrumentalist and prayer leader who has become one of the most important voices in

spk_0 contemporary Jewish music. She is a nationally touring artist serving 30 to 40 distinct

spk_0 communities every year and her music has become an important part of Jewish life across the globe.

spk_0 Ilana Arian has released five albums of original music to date. Her most recent released earlier

spk_0 this year is entitled If We Love Like That. She is also the subject of a dedicated composer's anthology

spk_0 by Transcontinental Music Publications also published in 2025. Ilana Arian has performed at Carnegie

spk_0 Hall, Lincoln Center, Tanglewood and perhaps most memorably, five separate appearances at the

spk_0 White House in the Obama years. Before becoming a star in the Jewish music world, Ilana Arian

spk_0 spent a decade as a touring artist in the folk indie scene, opening regularly for a girly man,

spk_0 David Wilcox, Katie Curtis and many more. She's appeared on NPR's Soundcheck as well as on PBS's

spk_0 Finding Your Roots. She is also a sought after studio musician working with artists such as Peter

spk_0 Yaro, The Dirty Projectors and Katie Curtis. On Broadway, she's held the guitar chair on both the

spk_0 Vival of Sweet Charity, starring Tony Award winners Sutton Foster and on Kristen Chenoweth's acclaimed

spk_0 For The Girls. She's also worked on multiple instruments in pit orchestras of many Broadway shows.

spk_0 Ilana Arian studied conducting violin, jazz guitar and songwriting at Yale. We're excited to

spk_0 kick off our series on Jewish music, so Ilana Arian, thanks for getting us started. Welcome to Judaism

spk_0 Unbound. It's so great to have you. Ilana Arian, welcome to Judaism Unbound. It's so great to

spk_0 have you. Thanks for having me. What a great thing to be here. Well, in this unit, I really wanted to

spk_0 get started with this question of how one becomes a Jewish musician, and I suppose everyone

spk_0 becomes a Jewish musician in a different way. So I'm wondering how you became a Jewish musician,

spk_0 if that's even the right terminology. But I was particularly intrigued because I saw that you've

spk_0 been a musician on Broadway and in all kinds of other circumstances. And I'm wondering what was

spk_0 your path and what did you intend to be and was this it? I love that framing of,

spk_0 I don't know, what did you intend to be and was this it? I don't know. Most people I come into

spk_0 contact with are something wonderful that they didn't intend to be. Yeah, I've been a musician

spk_0 really. I've identified as a musician my whole life much longer than as a Jewish musician.

spk_0 And I think that that's an important part of my path, just that music was really in my home

spk_0 and in my life. And particularly Jewish music forever. My parents are both lifelong makers of Jewish

spk_0 music and song leaders. And my mom is still a professor at Hebrew Union College teaching mostly

spk_0 in the Cantorial School. And so my dad dedicated his life to Jewish camp. So I grew up in a song session,

spk_0 you know, in the dining hall with the chairs, shaking and stuff. And that music is probably the

spk_0 oldest musical DNA that I have. And the most core to my childhood memories. And because I grew up at

spk_0 camps, I picked up guitar that way, like different song leaders and different camps teaching me

spk_0 accord here and there. And my parents both play guitar, my mom's a pianist. So that kind of music

spk_0 was always part of my life folk music and guitar and singing. And I'm a primary trained instrument

spk_0 as violin. I'm a classically trained violinist. So I kind of went up through into college thinking

spk_0 that I certainly would be a musician. And maybe I'd be like in a symphony or something. And I

spk_0 in college kind of fell in as you do with, you know, a Mary band of misfit music makers shout out.

spk_0 That is not what people usually fall into in college for what it's worth. Like when you hear the

spk_0 sentence in college, I fell into it does not always end with Mary musicians. That's a very wholesome,

spk_0 it's a very wholesome end to the sense of. Well, I think the music lane client do like you left,

spk_0 you fell into it. That's true. Lex, but I'm not a musician. I guess so. There's just like all these

spk_0 holes around that that we're falling into stuff at its just yielding music. I guess there's like a

spk_0 drama. Absolutely. Absolutely. There is. So I was doing like a ton of classical music making in college.

spk_0 And then about halfway through I I started singing with sort of a proudly not acapella group,

spk_0 but like of the acapella scene in my school. It was like a folk singing group. People playing

spk_0 guitars and mandalins and banjos and singing kind of 60s American folk music. And because of that,

spk_0 I had a lot of friends from that group who were just writing their own music. And it was something

spk_0 that had not occurred to me somehow, even though I grew up on that music, you know, Joni Mitchell and

spk_0 James Taylor and all that. And so I started writing my own music in college and by the time I graduated,

spk_0 I was moving back to New York, I grew up in Westchester and I moved back to the city to make it

spk_0 as a folk singer. So I was doing that kind of music making for a little over a decade. So I was

spk_0 playing in New York and recording my first album and you know, teaching guitar lessons and violin

spk_0 lessons as my way of making money. And because of my parents, professional work and my dad's

spk_0 relationships to camping and stuff, Debbie Freeman of Blessed Memory was, you know, just a friend of my

spk_0 families and a presence in my life. And as a supportive friend, she used to come and hear me play

spk_0 in these like, God awful clubs in New York, like the ones that give you, those early gigs are pretty

spk_0 gross. And so she would come, you know, in the middle of a Wednesday afternoon and hear me play. And

spk_0 and and she just started right away from the beginning like, hey, that was great, you know, something nice

spk_0 about something. And then how about writing some Jewish music, you know, and what do you think about

spk_0 that? You know, and I just had that knee jerk early 20s thing of like, no, that's, I mean, thank you,

spk_0 that's so I was touched by it, but very much like, oh, I'm definitely never doing that. Like, thank

spk_0 you. And that sort of started this ongoing dynamic between us of her kind of pushing me in this

spk_0 direction and my really resisting that I really was just kind of like, that's not for me for years

spk_0 and years and years. And it really took until I was a brand new parent like my, I have two kids and

spk_0 my oldest daughter was born in 2013, really just in a very unusual for me moment of spontaneous prayer

spk_0 and calling out, found myself kind of singing a prayer, you know, as I was changing my daughter, you

spk_0 know, from the end of the Amida, Yihiliratzonim Rifi, the Higye only, Bili Phanachha, you know, may the

spk_0 things that I'm struggling with may my anxieties be okay and be acceptable. I was at the time, I had

spk_0 just begun playing violin in the Shabbat ensemble at Central Synagogue in Manhattan and I shared that

spk_0 piece with the clergy there and they asked me to share it with the congregation and I just had a

spk_0 really different experience doing that than I did all of the clubs that I was playing, you know,

spk_0 for that decade, which, which, you know, eventually were nicer clubs that were, it wasn't as gross to

spk_0 be there. You know, it was a feeling of embracing and allowing in this piece of myself that I had

spk_0 really been pushing and really resisting and really sort of living in that tension and such a

spk_0 relief, you know, to like, let all the parts in. And that was 12 years ago and that was really the

spk_0 beginning of this completely other chapter of my life, although Jewish music has always been

spk_0 sort of my way into Judaism. It's become my primary sort of form of service, I think, in the Jewish

spk_0 community. It's become a big part of my teaching, sort of the core of my professional and spiritual

spk_0 life. And it really came from learning how to let go of resisting and pushing away the parts of

spk_0 myself that didn't feel like what I in my brain wanted to be doing, but, you know, there's other

spk_0 parts of us that take over. Yeah, so I mean, there were a lot of beautiful it's at the end of that

spk_0 response. You know, it's become, you know, a core part of what I bring to the world. There were,

spk_0 I don't remember all of them, but listeners can rewind and hear them again. It, the it, there is Jewish

spk_0 music. That's the antecedent. It's a really funny phrase. Like we don't think about this very much.

spk_0 Like there are genres of music, right? Like if you talk about classical music, I mean, you mentioned,

spk_0 you know, acapella versus not acapella, you know, there's ska and there's reggae and there's

spk_0 rock and there's rap. And like if you ask somebody who is a performer of one of these genres,

spk_0 what those genres are, they can talk to you about like characteristics of the music that make it

spk_0 roughly fit into that genre. And like it's not that any genre is hard and fast and there's

spk_0 blurring of genres, but like Jewish music isn't like that, right? Like you can't just hear a random

spk_0 set of notes and instrumentations happening and be like, ah Jewish now that doesn't stop people from

spk_0 doing it. Like there are certain sounds that people hear that people associate with Jewish music,

spk_0 but the way that you bring things melodically, if you took out all the words and not just you,

spk_0 like a lot of contemporary Jewish music, I don't know that people would automatically know that

spk_0 they're hearing Jewish music unless it was like set to a prayer or in a Jewish building. Like

spk_0 I'd love to hear you distill what that it is. Like what when we're talking about Jewish music,

spk_0 because you teach in, you know, a school of Jewish music of sacred music, what do we mean? Like

spk_0 on some level, if I sing anything in the context of a Jewish ritual, I feel like it's, it has become

spk_0 Jewish music, right? And there's a long history of that precise thing happening, right? Like if you

spk_0 look at the history of some of, you know, our favorite wordless melodies, favorite Nguninim, it's

spk_0 often like, oh, it was a song people sang in bars, it's secularly, and then it made its way. And like

spk_0 that the best we can do, like what is Jewish music? And I guess also we can start to open up,

spk_0 what does it do? Hmm. Two great and gigantic questions, I think. Yeah, I think the question of

spk_0 what is Jewish music and the idea that it can't be defined easily as a genre in the way that,

spk_0 you know, basically any other genre that I can think of that I'm aware of can is a little bit

spk_0 related to a lot of the existential and political and broader sort of conversations about what is

spk_0 what's a Jew, you know, in the same way that like, okay, if you see in your mind's eye, you know,

spk_0 a Satmer Jew in Brooklyn, right, with a particular Hasidic look and particular, you know,

spk_0 payus, forelocks and a hat or whatever, that's a Jew, right? And we also know that like,

spk_0 you're a Jew and you look how you look and I'm a Jew and I look how I look and I think part of

spk_0 the reason that it's very difficult to pin down collection of a real multitude of sounds and

spk_0 melodies and rhythms even is because of what the sort of cultural nature of being Jewish,

spk_0 which is that it is not one thing. It's an almost infinite number of things because of the way we've

spk_0 sort of scattered and regathered across the globe and through cultures and and that's unique.

spk_0 You know, Christian Rock, for example, which is a gigantic millions, hundreds of millions of

spk_0 streams a year musical genre has a sound to it. It's defined, you know, it doesn't represent,

spk_0 I don't think every branch of Christianity, I'm speaking way outside of my expertise now, but

spk_0 but musically if I like the sound of one song that comes up and it's labeled as Christian Rock,

spk_0 I can go to a playlist and hear music that is that sound because it's a very defined stream.

spk_0 And in some ways I think Jewish music is as difficult as it is to define even just from a musical

spk_0 perspective because of how difficult it is to define a Jew. What is it to be culturally Jewish?

spk_0 What is it to be quote unquote observant? You know, and all of that kind of feeds into what are the

spk_0 creative musical, theatrical, what are those expressions that feel sort of characteristically Jewish?

spk_0 And it's complex I think just because exactly of the kind of people we are. The guy recently,

spk_0 I recently got to see Alex Edelman, that wonderful comedian, trying out some new material. And

spk_0 now that is a Jewish comedian, obviously, right? This is a comedian who grew up in a traditionally

spk_0 observant household and has lots of material that's about Jewish experience and Jewish, what it's

spk_0 like to to grow up particularly for him in like an observant household in like a sort of secular

spk_0 part of Boston and all that stuff. He actually officiated a friend of mine's wedding. He's held

spk_0 like that Jewish ritual. Amazing. That's so, oh, I would love to see that. But like, I feel like

spk_0 that's a perfect example or even someone like Sarah Silverman, you know, it's like those are

spk_0 really Jewish, like those are Jewish comedians, you know, I'm sort of making an exaggerated

spk_0 face right now. But it's not because they're necessarily doing jokes about like something that

spk_0 happened in shul or like some kind of fun cultural stereotypes that we can laugh at ourselves about.

spk_0 There's an essential quality to sort of like the delivery, the structure, the form and the

spk_0 content is somehow in their cells Jewish, even if the jokes aren't not about that at all. And

spk_0 in some ways, I think that's a question that's a play with Jewish music, you know, like you said,

spk_0 if you're Jewish and you're singing this song in a context, that's a Jewish context. Is it Jewish

spk_0 music or is it just a Jew singing the song in a Jewish place, you know? And when I started in this

spk_0 work, I definitely felt that tension because I began to be invited to perform in settings of like

spk_0 a festival of Jewish music or a Jewish, a Jewish songwriter's night or something when I had maybe

spk_0 written one or two pieces that I consider Jewish music. And I thought, well, I'm not really like a

spk_0 Jewish musician though. I mean, I'm a Jewish musician, but I'm not really necessarily at that time

spk_0 making Jewish music. And it's a question of kind of like where do we draw that line is really blurry?

spk_0 To me, there's a few things that I know are Jewish music. And then there's a lot of things that

spk_0 work beautifully in Jewish contexts as communal pieces of music that therefore become Jewish music,

spk_0 but maybe did not start that way or weren't intended that way. And in some ways, I think that's

spk_0 one of the most beautiful things about this evolving form. We are open to using all kinds of

spk_0 tools to connect people. And in a particular way for me, I think Jewish music is music that's for

spk_0 some kind of communal connection. Even if it's traditional chazanut, let's say, like that's a

spk_0 form of Cantorial singing that's just the person has this incredible gymnastic, amazing improvisatory

spk_0 florid stuff. It's not what we picture as communal singing, which is maybe people sitting in a

spk_0 closed circle and singing a new wordless melody. But even someone performing an incredible piece

spk_0 of chazanut, you know, the idea of that, and I think some of the thrust of it, is with the purpose

spk_0 of us feeling a communal connection to some kind of old pre-memory, pre-whatever genetic experience

spk_0 in a stettle somewhere that maybe my great-great-grandfather heard. And now I'm getting to sort of be

spk_0 connected to that chain. I think I have a related question, and not that I want to dwell on synagogue

spk_0 music for this whole conversation, but when we think about synagogue music in particular as one

spk_0 genre of Jewish music, I'm almost trying to do a taxonomy in my head. And you know, I was thinking like,

spk_0 okay, there's kind of like what we tend to see in a conservative synagogue, and we kind of,

spk_0 a lot of us know what that sounds like, you know, conservative Jews think of that as like the

spk_0 traditional sound of Jewish music, you know, which is fascinating. And then there's kind of this

spk_0 cantorial music that you were describing, which I think people tend to say, well, that sounds like

spk_0 high reform, you know, old reform, although there was a lot of cantorial music in the Orthodox world.

spk_0 And, you know, so that's a one genre. And then the other genre is, you know, I don't know what's

spk_0 to call it exactly, but it's kind of, I think, looked a lot of us think of as Debbie Friedman or Jewish

spk_0 summer camp kind of songs, which we're now used to hearing a lot in contemporary reform synagogues.

spk_0 But, you know, as I was thinking about that, I was thinking like, in some ways, maybe the main

spk_0 distinction between the denominations is actually the kind of music that you hear in their synagogues,

spk_0 because frankly, like I've been wondering for many, many years, there's a reform synagogue

spk_0 going to conservative synagogue in my small neighborhood. And as far as I can tell, there is no

spk_0 difference whatsoever between the members and what they believe about Judaism.

spk_0 But really, the only difference is kind of what sort of music they are used to hearing. And then

spk_0 they scribe a lot of meaning to that music, like we're more traditional or we're less traditional,

spk_0 even though in some ways, right, the reform synagogue is actually more traditional in the sense

spk_0 that they're doing hazanute, which was sort of an older form. And the conservatives synagogue

spk_0 is actually doing German bar songs. And they sort of imagined it to be flipped. So I guess I'm

spk_0 wondering for your reflections on, you know, kind of how different genres of music play into the world

spk_0 of synagogues. Oh, yeah. What a great question. And I was vigorously nodding my head when you were

spk_0 saying that, you know, the people in your local reform and conservative synagogue seem to believe

spk_0 the same things about Judaism, but the distinction comes with what does it sound like in the service?

spk_0 You know, what are the melodies they're singing? And I think it's a really powerful and important

spk_0 point, particularly where we are. I couldn't really define it, but where we are in this current

spk_0 moment in terms of sort of denominational lines and what the place of the synagogue is in the

spk_0 Jewish future and what we can envision or not envision. And I think that a lot of my work throughout

spk_0 any given year is going as they tend to call it as an artist and residence, but it's basically

spk_0 going as a guest scholar to a particular synagogue community. And I'm there, you know, Friday afternoon

spk_0 through Sunday morning and, you know, leading Shabbat worship Friday night Saturday morning and

spk_0 Torah study. And I'll usually do a concert after Shabbat and maybe do something with the kids. And

spk_0 so I have like a intensive experience with, let's say, 30 communities a year. And they're primarily

spk_0 reformed communities because that's what I grew up in. And that's kind of the soup that I

spk_0 marinated in. And those are the communities that that tend to sing my music mostly. You know,

spk_0 and I, and then like maybe three or four conservative synagogues a year maybe have become. And it

spk_0 is one of the sort of incredible experiences when you come into it, when I come into a concert

spk_0 of synagogue, I'm in terms of I'm a, I teach leading worship at the reform seminary. And I play

spk_0 in all these reform seminaries and lead and work with their clergy teams and help to, you know,

spk_0 work as a worship consultant and help with, you know, shaping the, the look and the sound of

spk_0 exactly what you're talking about synagogue music and how does it help to elevate the prayer or not.

spk_0 And I find myself oftentimes when I'm first entering into a conservative worship space, not because

spk_0 of the liturgy, like not because of the words at all. But because of the thing when the rabbi says

spk_0 to me, okay, we're going through the order of the service. And then we do the traditional melody

spk_0 for this and we do the traditional melody for that. And it's like, you, you actually do have to

spk_0 ask in every single setting, what is the traditional melody to that? And then it's, you know, in reform

spk_0 settings, the traditional melody is going to be an 1800s German exactly what you're talking about,

spk_0 like a seltzer kind of church music. It sounds like church music. Shema, yes, right. Right. That's

spk_0 true. Which people think is thousands of you. They think there's never been any other shema

spk_0 melody or like maybe they haven't thought about it. Yeah. Can I jump in with a quick story? This is

spk_0 one of my colleagues shared this incredible story with me that he was at a, like a retreat,

spk_0 a pluralistic retreat with, you know, Jews from all sorts of different denominations. And it was

spk_0 coming to time to prepare for the Hubsala service, you know, the ends Shabbat. And they couldn't

spk_0 agree on like which words to say or like which exact, you know, parts or whatever they were

spk_0 disagreeing about elements of it. But they all agreed that we should sing the traditional

spk_0 music, which is, which is Debbie, which is Debbie, which is so modern and reform, you know,

spk_0 in the Georgians 100 percent. And I've definitely, I've been on faculty at pluralistic retreats where

spk_0 the thing that that's the baseline thing that everybody can do is like we do the traditional

spk_0 Havdala. And then it's like, and it's kind of in the Yai Dai Dai's of a different kind of

spk_0 nomination, but it is Debbie, which is not that long ago. So yeah, I mean, that's, that perfectly

spk_0 illustrates it. I think that the question of what's the traditional melody and, and what you

spk_0 identified Dan as that being kind of one of the places that you could see a difference between

spk_0 your local reform and conservatives in a god. It's the way in which music, the particular melody is

spk_0 the particular arrangement of the notes and the particular rhythms and how they're presented,

spk_0 gets at the absolute core of the most important kind of Jewish memory that we have. And I

spk_0 think that in some ways, even though I'm sort of of the stream of the more contemporary sounding

spk_0 Jewish music, that's the deepest respect that I can have in the field of Jewish music as people's

spk_0 own sort of feeling of deep ownership and conviction that whatever fill in the blank melody

spk_0 is the traditional one and how dare you do something different with it. You know, that's about us

spk_0 as Jews being keepers of memory that we carried this melody from what the last place we were

spk_0 kicked out of to the new place. And we can still sing that melody here, even though we don't speak

spk_0 the language and we don't know anything and people don't know us, you know, there's something I think

spk_0 core to us that protects that. I mean, something like Colnidre is a perfect example. We know that the

spk_0 words of Colnidre are like a legal contract. It's not so meaningful to the moment that we sing them.

spk_0 But there's a reason that nobody is writing a new melody for Colnidre. I mean, that's like a peak

spk_0 moment of our Jewish year. You'd think that the Jewish composers will be going for it so that people

spk_0 would be singing their song. I have a bizarre relationship with Colnidre. I wrote my undergrad thesis

spk_0 on Colnidre. It's called more than words on a page. It's very much aligned with what you just said

spk_0 that it's not about the words. And like I wrote it because I was so angry about what the words say.

spk_0 And it actually bothers me that nobody notices the words. But I think like the more I dove into it,

spk_0 the more it was clear to me like this isn't about words. What matters about that piece, which is

spk_0 very agitating. I agree with you. Like it's strange that this peak moment in the Jewish calendar in

spk_0 what we're told is the holiest day of the year is not about the words that we're saying. It's about

spk_0 and that to me is the the source text, the object lesson that tells us that the way that we

spk_0 arrange the notes and the way that the rhythms are and the pace of them, I mean those notes

spk_0 mean that my grandmother could connect to sitting next to her, dad, and playing with his

spk_0 talus and the smell of his menthilated cough drops. And I can have my own contemporary

spk_0 resonance. And that we, that's one of those things. It's one of those sacred things that we don't

spk_0 we don't mess with. Even though it's not about the text and it's not about the message there,

spk_0 there's something just about memory and what those notes access. And I find myself as a contemporary

spk_0 composer of Jewish music and not all of my music, but a lot of it lives in synagogue in the world

spk_0 of synagogues. I find myself in that conversation a lot obviously because people are not aware. Like

spk_0 you said, Lex of who wrote different things. And I'm in a weird position as like a 44 year old person

spk_0 living in New York where there are some melodies of mine in reforms and eclips that people think

spk_0 are the traditional one. And that's insane. I've only been writing music for 12 years. You know,

spk_0 but he named a toe. Yeah, that's what I was saying. Yeah, there's a few others, but like

spk_0 that's a funny thing to me. And like it's delightful to be in the conversation of kind of

spk_0 for some young people, that's their, he name, that's the Hine Matov that for them, that is the one

spk_0 that they know. And it'll hold whatever memories it holds of being at summer camp or being in

spk_0 Hebrew school or whatever. But the idea of the traditional melody sort of follows me from

spk_0 place to place. And I think it is one of the big questions just as big as what makes music Jewish.

spk_0 Yeah, I mean, I've had that same experience with the traditional one, quote, when I worked for

spk_0 the Institute of Southern Jewish life and I was going to different synagogues for similar like

spk_0 weekend or long weekend situations. It was a fun translation game. And I actually, I think

spk_0 one of the most important skills I built over the course of wandering to those different kinds of

spk_0 synagogues is actually learning what different places mean. When I visit a new community,

spk_0 if I want to endure myself to them, it is helpful to know if when they say the traditional one or

spk_0 to be able to read when they say the traditional one, if they're talking about Ose Shalom,

spk_0 for some communities, the traditional Ose Shalom is for others, it's

spk_0 and for others, recently, this is a newer one, but it's from Nava Tehila, it's

spk_0 and there will be another one that somebody thinks is the traditional one before turn on because

spk_0 as it turns out, every generation, it's nice to have melodies that are kind of yours,

spk_0 but which also feel anciently grounded. We cheat a little, we make things new, but then

spk_0 we feel them as ancient. It's like that famous quote, you know, that which is old becomes new,

spk_0 that which is new becomes holy from Rav Cook. It's so clear that that happens, but we don't seem

spk_0 thousands of years old, even though if you pause and you're like, okay, this does sound like

spk_0 like music I'd recognize in sort of a high church context, that's why and they were consciously

spk_0 making music that was of their time. It's not that it sounded like church music so much as it sounded

spk_0 like a lot of music at that time in that place, but I'm really glad Dan opened up the piece about

spk_0 music actually is a it's a separator. It's not only a unifier. We love a lot of us singing together,

spk_0 and so music is a way where in a literal sense we can unify, like we can be singing in unison,

spk_0 like singing things together, which creates this sense of a collective something that is beyond

spk_0 just me. Like that's part of what's happening when you sing in a group is you you're not just you

spk_0 anymore. You're like a component of a broader you that is the that is the room or a broader we.

spk_0 And that's cool, but I think it's important to say that like the main thing separating that

spk_0 conservative synagogue from that reform synagogue is whether their core maladies are written by

spk_0 Debbie Friedman or written earlier in the 1900s by folks in Germany or by the way more and more

spk_0 maybe written by a Joey Weisenberg or some musicians that have become widely beloved in

spk_0 conservative or traditionally galitarian context or even within reform you can go to communities and

spk_0 like oh there's the communities that are singing mostly Debbie Friedman and Jeff Clepp,

spk_0 if these names don't mean anything to you listeners it's okay you just there's the there's like

spk_0 the set of folks who came to write their music through the 60s and 70s era of Jewish summer camping

spk_0 and it's not that they wrote all our melodies then but a lot of their music is influenced by then.

spk_0 And then you've got people like you and I have heard people talk about like oh this we're

spk_0 going to do the Alonamality like you've you've gotten first name level in the way that Debbie or

spk_0 Joey like there's this intimacy that certain communities feel with their musicians and I'm saying

spk_0 their musicians even if they've never set foot there because that is a way that they're like

spk_0 without words communicating what kind of place they are. And so going back to the thing of the

spk_0 traditional one I learned in my travels in the south that there were a couple magical things I could

spk_0 do to connect to certain kinds of spaces I could sing this melody that many people might not have

spk_0 heard but many others might love let us adore this version of Alainu this version of the prayer

spk_0 towards the end of the service that was really sort of a core melody for a certain generation of

spk_0 largely older today you know 70s and 80s Jews who are in reform context not just in the south but

spk_0 including in the south and I learned that if I did that melody for them whatever else I did they

spk_0 would have this warm fuzzy and come up to me after services and be thrilled about it and with

spk_0 other communities if I'm hanging out with you know 20 year olds in a reform context if I've

spk_0 pulled a Dan Nichols melody that they associate with their summer camp I have the freedom to do a

spk_0 bunch of other things with the rest of my time because I've gotten on their way of length that's

spk_0 what music does and so I'd love to hear more on like it's beautiful right but it's also exactly

spk_0 what makes us uncomfortable like we think of a certain melody as the traditional one we don't know

spk_0 there's other ones and then we go to some new community and maybe it's that we grew up at summer

spk_0 camp maybe it's not synagogue and then we go to a beautiful communal singing circle where they all

spk_0 seem to know what's happening but it's a world of melodies from the Joey Wise and Bergs and the

spk_0 Debra Saxe-Mins in the the folks in a certain corner and all of a sudden I feel like an outsider so

spk_0 can you talk to us more about that separator unifier conflict or duality absolutely so beautifully

spk_0 said and I think I think there's a lot there I mean one thing is just just to your your insight

spk_0 about singing let us adore one thing that I experience regularly almost weekly traveling to

spk_0 different communities is a desire when I come somewhere I'm doing planning ahead of time with a

spk_0 you know with the clergy team and you know I'm trying to ask them what are their goals how what

spk_0 can I help them accomplish you know I'm trying to come and be a tool for their community and a

spk_0 lot of times people will start from a place of well we're planning the service we want to sing like

spk_0 all your stuff like let's sing all Alana area in melodies you know and I know that that's a

spk_0 terrible idea I mean even in places where they sing eight or nine of my melodies like that's not a

spk_0 great idea because of any number of arguments about different entry points to prayer and offering

spk_0 different textures and offering people different opportunities and people come to pray for a huge

spk_0 number of different reasons and we want to you know not present something that's the same all the

spk_0 way through but also much more importantly lex to your point because it's a vulnerable space to

spk_0 enter into whether it's a prayer space or a community just a communal singing kind of environment that

spk_0 you just described where the last thing we want is the in-group out-group thing or the insider

spk_0 knowledge outside our knowledge we want a situation where people can step in and so every place I go

spk_0 I'm asking before we plan anything in the service you know what is the thing that we need to keep

spk_0 here no matter what you know I just recently released a new collection of songs and one of them is

spk_0 was a healing prayer a micha bear prayer that was a commission for a community in Houston and in

spk_0 the reform world Debbie Friedman's setting of micha bearach is literally the lyrics are printed

spk_0 in the seador it's really part of the canon so there's people who say to me oh let's do your

spk_0 micha bearach let's do your micha bearach and it's like that's not my mission at all like

spk_0 the idea is that we want to create spaces that where I I come in just like you said lex and I can

spk_0 do whatever I want after this in terms of introducing new melodies opening people's minds to the idea

spk_0 that some things are traditional and some things aren't or some things can be looked at a different

spk_0 way or whatever after I've come to a place of what's our common denominator what is your traditional

spk_0 melody for this and let me learn it and let me start with it and let you know I'm one of you I'm

spk_0 trying to teach you or make you do something you don't want to do and you know for me when I'm

spk_0 when I'm often most doing that is in prayer situations and in communal singing that's not based

spk_0 in liturgy you know I feel like there's a lot more latitude to be able to sort of open people up

spk_0 to things they're not accustomed to because there's a lot of wordless melody and so it's a little

spk_0 bit easier the cerebral editor doesn't get in the way as much but I think first and foremost the idea

spk_0 that we want that I like to approach worship with an idea of you know what is really familiar and

spk_0 home to you to start and then what are some things that I can bring in that will feel resonant but

spk_0 it's never a good idea to come in and say oh yeah let's do 10 of your melodies or whatever

spk_0 I think also there's a way in which feeling like your version whatever version it is the

spk_0 traditional version to you again with the ways in which it's like a portal to another time and a

spk_0 portal to a generation back or a portal to your childhood or a portal to whatever your specific

spk_0 memory is to that particular piece I think that it's it's quite interesting being a living

spk_0 composer of this music experiencing that of course most people have no idea where the melodies

spk_0 that we sing come from that human people wrote them and that they didn't come down with the tablets

spk_0 you know from Sinai I think that even in and of itself is kind of a strange way of dividing and

spk_0 bringing people together people made these things you know just regular people yeah and that in

spk_0 some ways helps me if I'm a person who feels very very bound to this traditional version of

spk_0 whatever prayer traditional and quotes you know to understand I mean Lex the three Ossetia

spk_0 low melodies that you just sang which I agree with you are probably the ones that people feel the

spk_0 most traditional the first one was Debbie Friedman okay so that's not very old Nareed Hirsch that's

spk_0 the 70s in Israel right and then Navatehila early 2000s really contemporary all of that is

spk_0 really contemporary I find that's what the that's one of the ones that I know if I go into any space

spk_0 everybody will feel better because that's like the traditional session alone but that's kind of

spk_0 amazing that's that's a person you know in our lifetime you know a young woman in Israel writing

spk_0 a setting when you introduce living people into it or the idea that human hands are at work here

spk_0 I think there's something kind of intellectually interesting to people about the way that we are

spk_0 sort of interjected into this what you described Lex as like a cheat that we get to use these ancient

spk_0 words that sort of immediately are imbued with meaning because you know they were in the Torah or

spk_0 because you know our great great great great great great great great grandparents said the same words

spk_0 on this same day of the Jewish calendar we get this sort of immediacy of this feeling of continuity

spk_0 and of weight and of sacredness and of echoes of generations that then the music can kind of be

spk_0 whatever in a certain way right and in the mind of this old and new being brought together and

spk_0 and I think you know obviously I don't think the music should be whatever I have pretty strong

spk_0 feelings about what it is but Jewish music particularly music that has some kind of liturgical

spk_0 basis does not to be music for prayer but that has text that's ancient Jewish text has a very unique

spk_0 place of helping people to reflect on you know what it means to be here now alive as a Jew in whatever

spk_0 contemporary space and how it is immediately connected to these thousands of years of tradition and

spk_0 and history so when Lex wanted to do this series on music my initial reaction was like I don't know

spk_0 anything about music like what questions am I going to ask and now I kind of see that I'm like

spk_0 the stand-in for the audience members you don't know anything about music and hopefully Lex is

spk_0 the stand-in for the audience members you do nest something about music and it'll actually work

spk_0 well and the thing that I'm stuck on from what you both were talking about earlier was when you

spk_0 were talking about the Kulnidre melody which is a pretty standard melody that is old and there

spk_0 aren't really that many or I don't know if there any like new melodies for Kulnidre that are really

spk_0 used but one thing that struck me as I was thinking about it that it connected with some stories

spk_0 that I told early on in the history of this podcast where when my synagogue was interviewing

spk_0 rabbinical candidates and they were saying that certain things couldn't be done because the

spk_0 Brahma the blessing that was said meant to certain thing that wouldn't allow for you know having

spk_0 it on juice day at for example and everybody in the synagogue was like that's what it means you know

spk_0 I thought it meant that it's time to read the Torah you know in that particular case and what I'm

spk_0 thinking is like Kulnidre a lot of us say oh well it really means that we're you know being you know

spk_0 blood we're not we don't have to fulfill our vows and blah blah blah but I think a lot of people

spk_0 hear that melody Kulnidre and they hear it as it's time to be forgiven you know they hear it as

spk_0 like something that it that a scholar would say that's not what this prayer means at all and yet

spk_0 it does mean it because the part that is actually communicating its meaning is not the words but the

spk_0 melody and that melody you know right or wrong in in quotation marks in terms of what people

spk_0 who care about words think that it means actually I guess I'm wondering whether the melody can

spk_0 actually have meaning apart from the words in a way that it can even contradict the words and

spk_0 like if you were gonna and I guess I'm asking this question to you as a composer of new music are

spk_0 there ways in which you you might sort of pull forward a theme a musical theme you think that people

spk_0 understand in a certain way whether I guess it's a Jewish musical theme or or not a Jewish one or

spk_0 you don't just one from general music theory and you know I think a lot of times we often think of

spk_0 Jewish music as bringing forward words from the Torah or words from other players and maybe setting

spk_0 it to new music and I'm kind of wondering almost about the newer image of that where we might

spk_0 have new words but they're set to themes that on a deep way make people feel like I know what

spk_0 this song is about even beyond the words what a great question I think what you said about Kulnidre

spk_0 is exactly the point not only do we know that the words are not conveying the meaning but we've

spk_0 experienced every year exactly what you say Dan that the sound of that melody the arrangement of

spk_0 those notes tells me right it's time to forgive and it's time to be forgiven and that is the meaning of

spk_0 that obviously we're talking about just like two vectors of meaning and I think we get to choose I

spk_0 mean because I was raised in a reform setting with like a real emphasis on informed choice I think we

spk_0 get to choose there's plenty of words that I say or that I recite or that I you know read to myself

spk_0 or in a communal prayer setting where I'm like yeah these words are kind of hard for me to say I

spk_0 don't know if I believe this I don't know if I believe that is that really what this says and what

spk_0 this means but I find meaning either in the singing of this particular melody because it conveys a

spk_0 different or as you're saying with Kulnidre maybe even opposite meaning or I find meaning in the

spk_0 saying of these words the act of saying the words even though their essential meaning maybe

spk_0 is something that I'm struggling with there are at least two if not more vectors of meaning that are

spk_0 going on in music that has words one of the pieces that you have in your toolkit as a composer

spk_0 of music particularly where you're setting words that pre-exist like a sacred music kind of

spk_0 situation one of the choices you make is you know am I am I writing musical material that I feel like

spk_0 is to suit these like to to support and suit the literal meaning of these words or am I trying to

spk_0 propose something that's a little bit intention with these words and have people consider

spk_0 that tension and what does it feel like it's one of those things of you know in the music theoretical

spk_0 world that you're sort of forced to learn all this theory and whatever so that you know that when

spk_0 you're breaking it on purpose you're doing it with some intentional meaning and so you know I

spk_0 definitely do think a lot about you know I feel pretty strongly that whatever melodic choices that

spk_0 you're making or other musical choices that you're making if you're setting a pre-existing sacred

spk_0 I want there to be a reason that the melody is the way that it is not just that it sounds nice

spk_0 or that I like the way it feels in this part of my voice but that either that it is this is a

spk_0 prayer about peace and so this is a peaceful sounding melody or actually the settings that

spk_0 Lex that you sang before are not peaceful those are different kinds of settings of Ossetia

spk_0 Lomb those are sort of you know sometimes it really agitated and very urgent kind of settings

spk_0 of Ossetia Lomb or ecstatic jubilant rhythmic settings of Ossetia Lomb and so I'm a real believer in

spk_0 the idea that the music carries as much of the midrush on the text as anything else and so and if

spk_0 there's one thing that I'm trying to drill into people who come to study with me about writing

spk_0 I need there to be a midrush I love listening to all different kinds of music and I don't require

spk_0 this of all music but music with liturgical language because of its tradition and its age and

spk_0 the generations I need the person to be communicating a point of view or a midrush through the melody

spk_0 and I think it absolutely can be in complete opposition to the sound to the words the sound

spk_0 of the melody but then I want that to be for a reason you know that to make me think about something

spk_0 yeah wow we really agree on this I mean I I I go so back and forth on precisely what Dan is

spk_0 talking about I think Dan like what's funny is I I honestly think a lot of scholars would agree

spk_0 with what you see like I think there are some folks who would really be living in the words

spk_0 that make up prayer and when you ask them the big question you know what's the meaning of this I

spk_0 think for some people the answer to what's the meaning of insert any Jewish prayer like madlibs

spk_0 the answer to that question is what the Hebrew words say that's different for each prayer but

spk_0 like the answer to what a Hoshky Vayno means is well it's this prayer about protection and like

spk_0 if you look at the words it's about protection okay fine so other people when they hear I'll just

spk_0 like a Craig Craig Taubman's Hoshky Vayno which is a very widely circulated Hoshky Vayno like

spk_0 their meaning for that prayer is melody that I have sung my whole life it makes me think of a particular

spk_0 family member of mine particular friends of mine that I've sung it with a particular summer camp I

spk_0 went to like it's actually the meaning is that it's not the words like if you ask folks what the

spk_0 meaning of Hoshky Vayno is and they respond that way I don't think they're wrong I think they're

spk_0 giving a meaning that is not universally recognizable outside of them but people do and should have

spk_0 sort of personal meanings for prayers what I struggle with is like I do actually think some of the words

spk_0 of the prayers are worth either internalizing when I like them or fighting with when I don't like

spk_0 them as in cold nature like I think that it's like a beautiful spiritual act to really be in the

spk_0 words and not just in the melodies and I think what we've done is create communities who are more

spk_0 connecting to melodies a lot of the time than two words and that's not it's not that we shouldn't

spk_0 be connecting to melodies and we should only be connecting the words I think that's something that

spk_0 is often attention between leaders of spaces and like a lot of people they want to bring new melodies

spk_0 so that the meaning can not live only in the melody and then the community is like no don't do

spk_0 that I think that it's like the tension of a lot of Jewish communal singing I wanted to dwell

spk_0 in Misha Barach really briefly and like you started to describe something that happened where

spk_0 right now Debbie Friedman's Misha Barach is in the prayer book for the reform movement and I think

spk_0 even for the conservative movement it might be in the prayer book I'm not sure when I was growing up

spk_0 I think a lot of us remember and Greg Drinkwater has actually like wrote about this a lot of us

spk_0 remember that Debbie Friedman's Misha Barach was on a little piece of paper inserted into the

spk_0 prayer book it was not yet part of the prayer book but it was really widely utilized at first

spk_0 in reform communities and then beyond and then what happens is exactly what happens with Jewish

spk_0 music it it starts as like oh this edgy new interesting melody that's outside the prayer book

spk_0 but which we are using as like a supplement or we're inserting and then it becomes just that's what

spk_0 this melody is and then people come around like you and others and it's not so much a rebellion

spk_0 but there's a sense of you know what if we had other musical settings to this prayer that are not

spk_0 just that one and that's where I've started to hear a lot of people like viscerally anti Debbie

spk_0 Friedman Misha Barach that's been so overdone it's so and I'm like well do you know the story of it

spk_0 it started and was circulated so widely because it was written in a time of the AIDS epidemic where

spk_0 Debbie Friedman herself was deeply connected to LGBTQ communities and she saw a need for a prayer

spk_0 that was about healing a lot of communities were not saying a Misha Barach for healing at all

spk_0 that's actually like Misha Barach does not mean prayer for healing it's a set of blessings that

spk_0 are all sorts of different needs and she met that need and it was so needed in the 80s and 90s

spk_0 that it circulated everywhere and then it circulated so much that people actually don't know the story

spk_0 of it they don't know the origin and they're not wrong right so like I'd love to hear like they're

spk_0 they're right that it's taken on a meaning that isn't just its origin story and that news melodies

spk_0 are lovely and so I guess like as we're starting to arc towards the close of the episode

spk_0 I'd love to hear your reflections on like how we navigate all this how do we actually sort of start

spk_0 to apply what we're talking about yeah I think in some ways this tension is a microcosm of many of

spk_0 the other tensions that the Jewish community holds we want to be particular I think that we have

spk_0 this on the one hand very specific kind of idea of identity on the other hand we have this

spk_0 desire to feel this sort of broad inclusive communal embrace like in some ways I find in my lifetime

spk_0 the sort of much more popularization of communal singing circles right what joy wise and

spk_0 burg and diverse ex-mens and many of my friends you know have kind of brought into a lot of the

spk_0 popular consciousness of people my age and younger that is a radical thing because that's not

spk_0 necessarily part of our hadn't been part of our regular culture maybe people sit around their

spk_0 shabbat tables and singing songs but like I'm gonna come to a place where I may not know people

spk_0 and we're gonna sit in a circle and we're going to sing for a long time maybe without any words

spk_0 and I'm gonna feel something meaningful and it's perhaps going to be a Jewish feeling that I'm

spk_0 gonna have you know is a kind of a radical thing in that it sort of acknowledges the way that we're

spk_0 so fragmented and that it is so countercultural to come together in a room and do it for the sole

spk_0 purpose of experiencing this unifying thing you know what you said before earlier Lex I thought was so

spk_0 powerful the idea that you know hearing people's voices singing in unison is one of the great

spk_0 unifying experiences that you can have in a sensory way as a person and it's it's rare you know

spk_0 even for me that's my job is to do that and it's not like every single day of my life I'm going

spk_0 it I'm getting to go into a room and have that experience this desire to be both a very particular

spk_0 specific thing whether it's a Jew in the broader world or whether it's my particular type of Jew

spk_0 and my particular community that sings this particular melody or someone who never goes into

spk_0 synagogue or someone who mostly expresses Judaism the sing-duck we have this desire to be at the

spk_0 same time having this very unique particular experience and then also this very to be connected to

spk_0 this broad universal communal expansive experience I don't know how we sort of solve the resistances

spk_0 that we've identified I think they're there as I've said a few times they're sort of embedded in culture

spk_0 Jewish and beyond in a way that's like really our struggle right now and as someone who leads in

spk_0 those kinds of spaces I think that part of my responsibility is to in a really visible and

spk_0 obvious way hold and acknowledge those multiple ways of being so I may come into a space and I've

spk_0 got a new fill in the blank piece that I really want to share that cannot be my motivation in that

spk_0 space you know my motivation in that space needs to be a much higher order thing I so I'm holding

spk_0 on the one hand that sort of universalist biggest embrace and I think part of my role as a person who

spk_0 you know believes in and makes new melodies and new settings for these sort of sacred entry points

spk_0 to then in those in the comfort of those spaces when people feel really open to then also hold up

spk_0 this very specific and particular thing and and allow people to engage with it in in a new way and

spk_0 say you know the old and the new and the this and the that we've got space for all of that

spk_0 so I kind of want to come full circle we started with you sharing a beautiful story about how your

spk_0 starting point was not Jewish music and that you know Debbie Friedman was nudging you towards it

spk_0 which like what a surreal thing that's like the preeminent person in a particular field be like hey

spk_0 get going at this like we need you I kind of want to come back to that because I maybe this is

spk_0 just me I don't think it is but I will speak just for me and potentially for like I love singing

spk_0 melodies that are like meant to be Jewish right like I love I I write some of them I sing loads

spk_0 of them my others I really enjoy the process of mobilizing quote unquote secular songs or pops up

spk_0 whatever it might be for Jewish purposes and I bring it up not because that specific thing is so

spk_0 interesting but because I think it points to something bigger about Jewish life you talked about how

spk_0 what is Jewish music intersects with you know who is a Jew or what is a Jew there's also a way in

spk_0 which what is Jewish music allows us to ask questions about like where Judy is who lives I'm somebody

spk_0 who like look I can go to a synagogue I can go to a JCC I can go to a Jewish like I can be at

spk_0 places that have like Jewish and their names on on building records but I for whatever reasons

spk_0 it's not better or worse I like what it feels like to be Jewish in a place that is not marked as Jewish

spk_0 there's a reason that you know I started a Shavuote gathering at an iHop that we do every year

spk_0 and there's a reason why I like programming in zoom and there's a reason why you know in my

spk_0 neighborhood that is not at all seen as the Jewish neighborhood I get a kick out of hosting services

spk_0 in my backyard and knowing that people are in a busy neighborhood walking by and like oh there's

spk_0 like what's happening over there and like maybe seeing our yellow cousin like I like that and I

spk_0 think it links to the ways in which I enjoy not just as a kitschy thing it's sometimes done in a kitschy

spk_0 way oh we're gonna grab the latest pop song and float in like but actually is like a ritual push

spk_0 to find deep meaning in pop songs I've recently been doing it with the song unholy by Sam

spk_0 Smith and Kempetris from a few years ago it's actually written in a mode the fragrance it's

spk_0 it's written in a sound that people hear as Jewish sounding it's also Middle Eastern sounding

spk_0 and its title is unholy and it's actually you know to marginalize people to trans folks trans

spk_0 non-binary folks sort of pushing back on what holiness means what unholyness means and I have been

spk_0 mobilizing that a lot for certain melodies and services and people find it kitschy at first but once

spk_0 I talk about it a little they're like oh this is kind of a real prayer act and so as a close I'd

spk_0 love to ask like to what degree is there not really a separation at all between Jewish music and

spk_0 everything else like are we overstating this and might we benefit from noticing the ways in which

spk_0 Jewish music is also broader music in the same way that like Jewish people are people yeah I

spk_0 definitely resonate with what you're saying there's a particular kind of feeling and zing of

spk_0 like you're saying leading the services in your backyard and knowing that people are kind of

spk_0 walking by and hearing the sounds and like wondering about it that you're not in the Jewish neighborhood

spk_0 but you're you're creating a Jewish space and I think that that's there is something really special

spk_0 in that yes ultimately we probably are making some artificial boundaries that don't exist

spk_0 we love boundaries that don't exist exactly that's your whole thing I'm sure you know I also really

spk_0 really love did you use the word deploying I might have it's a word that folks in Jewish renewal

spk_0 use a lot and I like that idea of deploying it because a deploying a quote unquote secular song or

spk_0 a pop song or a song not you know that's not Jewish and bringing it into a Jewish space and into

spk_0 Jewish Jewish context listen that is the tradition of those German bar songs and the music the Debbie

spk_0 Friedman wrote in the you know 60 70s 80s that is about using the language that musical language

spk_0 of folk music the music of the people right that's the same thing as certain prayers being an

spk_0 aromac because that's the language that people spoke right we're trying to find people and get people

spk_0 and connect to people where they are and the concept of folk music or folk art is just of the people

spk_0 and so in a lot of ways using any kind of contemporary whether it's pop song or folk song or even

spk_0 you know I've heard people beautifully render pieces of you know music that comes from musical

spk_0 theater even if it's again it can easily tip into you know kitschy and performative and it's not my

spk_0 vibe like there's lots of synagogues that like to do like a don't alumn to the tune of whatever like

spk_0 okay that's fine that's like a different thing than I think we're talking about which is again

spk_0 deploying the resonance of something that's in popular culture or that's outside of exists outside

spk_0 in the broader world and connecting it to the things that feel essentially Jewish I think that

spk_0 that is really a very powerful tool and I think it's also interesting as you're saying I think what

spk_0 you're saying is that you're using let's say unholy as a melody in a few different places in the

spk_0 service like in a few different ways I've yeah in different I mean I don't think I've used it more

spk_0 than once in one sir but I like I have but there are moments where I do things as like a repeated

spk_0 mantra yes yes and I think that it's kind of an interesting trajectory to notice that probably

spk_0 often what happens is that people are kind of a little uncomfortable and think it's kitschy and

spk_0 weird and by the third time you're doing it people are moved we do tend to not really enjoy as humans

spk_0 something new and different as our first you know gut the tension of singing these words that are

spk_0 supposed to be wholly and important and different than the words that I've been speaking in my

spk_0 regular life you know and they're printed in this book and they're in this other language you know

spk_0 I think that there's a discomfort with kind of bringing together the like in the Havdalla

spk_0 blessing the sacred and the profane I always thought that was so funny like the profane is the

spk_0 opposite of sacred like you're not bringing like a profanity you know laid-in piece that's like

spk_0 disrespectful you're bringing something normal quote unquote and marrying it to something sacred and

spk_0 and to me that just gives me an opportunity as a person to reflect on oh this is something that I

spk_0 knew in this other context and now it I feel this sort of sacred connection this holy this elevation

spk_0 and maybe things all around me can be that way you know it's I think in a lot of ways it's a way to

spk_0 expand people's awareness you know of what can take on that meaning also I'm thinking about

spk_0 the feeling of ecstatic holy connection that you witness when you go to like a stadium show of

spk_0 some pop center that you like you know I just recently took my daughter to see Gracie Abrams who's

spk_0 a wonderful songwriter Jewish by the way but not a Jewish musician maybe or not Jewish music maybe

spk_0 playing at a medicine square garden it was really exciting as this is a young artist who was for

spk_0 the first time headlining this huge stadium and sold it out and there was a you know the the

spk_0 fans are like 12 13 14 year old people and their and their parents and and you know some older people

spk_0 too but you know when you look around in a stadium of people in a particular part of their life

spk_0 singing every single word at the top of their lungs and closing their eyes and swaying people are

spk_0 crying you know it's like they're experiencing this feeling of deep connection to this huge room

spk_0 of people everybody knows the words they're singing them together they're singing the melody you know

spk_0 they're they're like moving their bodies like there's a part of the device in secular music that is

spk_0 the absolute goal I think for any kind of a sacred space which is like forget that I'm myself and

spk_0 allow myself to be part of something bigger whether it's a a sense of something divine or a sense of

spk_0 something bigger than myself in terms of God or whether it's about a sense of belonging to something

spk_0 a community and not feeling alone whatever those particular needs are there's a way in which you

spk_0 know a really beautifully executed executed pop music experience is like the ultimate kind of sacred

spk_0 space and I was just I was really thinking about it when I was looking around in this concert recently

spk_0 with my daughter I loved the music and I was super into it and it was a great musical experience

spk_0 just from its own on its own but there was something really holy about watching particularly young

spk_0 people in this maybe first experience of what does it feel like we're everyone in the stadium

spk_0 thousands of people are singing at the same time and just feeling free there's something

spk_0 aspirational there that maybe is also what you tap into when you bring you know Sam Smith into a

spk_0 service thank you so much a lot of Aryan for joining us this has been an amazing kickoff to what I

spk_0 know is going to be an awesome unit thank you so much what a pleasure to talk to you and I'm really

spk_0 excited to hear the whole series us as well we can't wait for the remainder of the episodes in this

spk_0 unit on Jewish music thanks to a lot of Aryan for joining us and thanks to all of you out there for

spk_0 as we close a couple little reminders first Judaism inbound it's your very last chance to sign up for

spk_0 our intro to Judaism course you can do so at JudaismUnbound.com slash classes and financial aid is

spk_0 available it already began but you can sign up now watch back the recording of the first class

spk_0 and then join for the rest of the way you will not be able to do that once the second class occurs

spk_0 in a few days so register now also we have four amazing other classes in the Anya Shiva that have

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spk_0 aid is also available for them so head to JudaismUnbound.com slash classes to learn about these amazing

spk_0 course offerings in the Anya Shiva another quick announcement Shabbat Unbound our year long Shabbat

spk_0 service where each time we hone in on one particular prayer and give you the chance to really learn

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spk_0 year the first ever and now we're doing the follow up so that is on October 10th and you can

spk_0 sign up for that by heading to JudaismUnbound.com slash Shabbat in addition to those programmatic

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spk_0 we hope that your Rocha Shana and Yom Kippur were super meaningful and that you're gearing up

spk_0 hopefully for an incredible suit coat as well thanks so much for listening and with that this has been

spk_0 JudaismUnbound

Episode 503: Jewish Music - Elana Arian

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