Dylan Byers: Bari's New Perch & Kimmel's Curtain Call

Interactive Transcript

spk_0 Oh, no, not my stay everyone and welcome to Empolitik, which on Hyalminate Puck and Odyssey

spk_0 joint featuring lively in-depth conversations with people who cruise the quarters of power

spk_0 in America, sculpting and shaping the ebb and flow of our politics and our culture.

spk_0 By the time a lot of you listen to this episode of the show, a thing that until recently

spk_0 would have been unthinkable will not just have become thinkable, but will have become

spk_0 cold, hard, fact.

spk_0 Barry Weiss, the 41-year-old former op-ed writer and book review editor of the Wall Street

spk_0 Journal, then an op-ed staff editor, writer on culture and politics at the New York Times,

spk_0 and more recently a paragon of the crusade against wokeism, scourge of anti-Semitism in

spk_0 all its forms, and unyielding champion of Israel, who founded one of the premier substac

spk_0 empires of our age, the free press, that Barry Weiss, loved by some, disliked by others,

spk_0 but someone who has fierce and unalloyed convictions about many things that made her

spk_0 very popular among certain people in the media ecosystem, she will have been named the

spk_0 editor-in-chief of CBS News.

spk_0 Yes, CBS News, the CBS News of Edward Armurrow, Walter Cronkite, Dan Rather, the 60 minutes

spk_0 of Mike Wallace and Harry Reesner, morally safer and Leslie Stahl, that's 60 minutes,

spk_0 will now have it sit editor-in-chief, someone who has no, repeat no, history or background

spk_0 in the television business or television news whatsoever.

spk_0 At the same time, over on the entertainment side of CBS, last week Stephen Colbert, host

spk_0 of late-night with Stephen Colbert, hosted Jimmy Kimmel, and vice versa, Jimmy Kimmel

spk_0 will also host it Stephen Colbert on his show during Kimmel's week-long series of episodes,

spk_0 broadcast from the Brooklyn Academy of Music, the place where I am currently sitting New

spk_0 York City, putting a cap on the furer over ABC's suspension of Kimmel, a new pressure from

spk_0 Donald Trump and his FCC chairman Brendan Carr, followed by his reinstatement by Bob Iger,

spk_0 Disney CEO, and the reinstatement by the big station groups, next star in Sinclair, that

spk_0 had briefly continued his suspension after Disney had yielded.

spk_0 All of that happened a couple of weeks back.

spk_0 Everybody folded in the face of public pressure, Trump and Carr returned to their corner, Kimmel

spk_0 emerged triumphant.

spk_0 We all take pleasure in that, but the question is, what next?

spk_0 That's the question we want to address today.

spk_0 To help me do that, help me do that, and help you do that, and help everyone who has

spk_0 an interest in the tectonic shifts taking place in the news and entertainment landscapes,

spk_0 the structure so much of all of our lived and shared realities to help us unpack and make

spk_0 sense.

spk_0 So both of these stories and a few more besides, we have with us today Pucks very own, master

spk_0 of the media multiverse Dylan Buyers.

spk_0 As always, what Dylan provides isn't just his usual deeply sourced reportage about what's

spk_0 motivating each of the key players to make the moves that they are making and might make

spk_0 in the future, but his supremely savvy analysis about why these stories matter and where they

spk_0 go from here.

spk_0 He does all that.

spk_0 Along with offering his take on Sam Altman's latest Sally and AI's campaign to take over

spk_0 Hollywood, and he also offers his oddly endearing incoherent to the recently and dearly

spk_0 departed Bob Barnett, power lawyer, big swinging deal maker and quasi literary agent to the

spk_0 stars and the powers that be in Washington DC, you will get that.

spk_0 And more, every single bit of it, all of it.

spk_0 Coming at you on this all new episode of a politic with John Hylamin in three, two, one.

spk_0 When I left the New York Times, I had absolutely no plan at all.

spk_0 All I knew was that the thing I had seen was intolerable to me and that I didn't want

spk_0 to be a fig leaf for something that I felt had become sort of corrupt and more, most

spk_0 fundamentally that like the whole reason I became a journalist was to pursue my curiosity

spk_0 and if I wasn't going to be able to do that, what was the point?

spk_0 In retrospect, when I wrote that viral resignation letter, I like should have had a little widget

spk_0 was like, give me your email and follow along to see what I'll do next.

spk_0 The business would have been much further along by this point had I done that.

spk_0 Instead what I did was commenced a strong diet of day drinking and telling Nelly that

spk_0 anything short of like becoming, like building a world changing empire was sort of going

spk_0 to be too small.

spk_0 Like I had seen such an enormous problem and the solution had to feel equally enormous.

spk_0 So that was Barry Weiss a few months ago back in June appearing on conversations with

spk_0 Coleman, which is a podcast hosted by a young conservative African American writer named

spk_0 Coleman Hughes, brilliant kid, that Barry just made part of the free press and Dylan,

spk_0 Dylan Byers, good to see you.

spk_0 I wanted to kick off our conversation with that clip because I thought it was very much

spk_0 on point to what we have to talk about.

spk_0 You hear Barry there describing both her degree of alienation with mainstream media when

spk_0 she left the New York Times.

spk_0 We knew all about that but she lays it all out there again and the scale of her ambition

spk_0 in a very succinct way, just how big her appetite was to change the world when she went out

spk_0 to start the free press and all of it interesting on its own but also cast in a kind of new light

spk_0 as she's about to be named, about to be named by the time people hear this, she may have

spk_0 already been named editor in chief of CBS news along with being handed a big pile of

spk_0 dough.

spk_0 Yes, she'll get, she'll get the title editor in chief, she will get a deal that values

spk_0 the free press at around 150 million mix of cash and stock and she will, she will complete

spk_0 this journey from feeling ostracized by her colleagues at the New York Times just five

spk_0 years ago through the building of this sort of sub-stack empire and then now being installed

spk_0 a top one of the most agust and storied news brands in the history of American journalism.

spk_0 Yes, and in a lot of ways, let's just say out loud, the New York Times is the CBS news

spk_0 of newspapers, CBS news is the New York Times of network television.

spk_0 There's something interesting in all of that and you've killed everybody on this story,

spk_0 you've been ahead on Barry Weiss from day one, congratulations, you've broken the initial story

spk_0 and then every incremental piece of news after that is basically coming out of Dylan

spk_0 Buyers.

spk_0 Just tell me about, so let's take it from the very point of view first because that's where

spk_0 we started.

spk_0

spk_0 Why is this, I mean, how much money is she going to make out of this you think?

spk_0 You said mix of cash and stock, how much cash does she end up pocketing do you think?

spk_0 Number one, and number two, beyond the cash, why does she want to go into a medium that

spk_0 she has no real experience or specialization in television video that is?

spk_0 And return to the arms of mainstream media when she was on the way towards, you could

spk_0 argue, building exactly the kind of world changing empire she said she told Nelly that she

spk_0 wanted to build.

spk_0 Yeah, I mean, as for the cash, look, I don't have this specific breakdown of the cash stock

spk_0 balance here, nor what Barry and Nelly and Co are entitled to, it's obviously generational

spk_0 wealth, right?

spk_0 I mean, it's enough to set up her kids and maybe her kids kids as well, or at least put

spk_0 them on the right path, tens of millions.

spk_0 Why did David Ellison want to bring her to CBS news?

spk_0 I think that a few things are important to keep in mind here.

spk_0 One is that when David Ellison got Paramount, he didn't get it for the news division.

spk_0 In fact, if David Ellison and Jeff Shell could have like inherited Paramount Studios and

spk_0 the NFL rights and the masters and Paramount Plus and all of that without the news division,

spk_0 they probably would have.

spk_0 So they came in, they took a news division that is losing money effectively.

spk_0 I mean, it's at best marginally profitable now if you take away the affiliate fees, it's

spk_0 actually just losing money.

spk_0 It is a perennial third place network, despite its storied tradition, despite how powerful

spk_0 60 minutes remains, despite the sort of legacy of Cronkite and Merrow and all that.

spk_0 I think they saw a blank slate.

spk_0 I think that they saw both an opportunity to create a news division that was more reflective

spk_0 of their own politics, which were not nearly so sort of left of center as CBS news has

spk_0 been in recent years, at least in their view.

spk_0 I also think they saw an opportunity, a market opportunity to say, okay, there's ABC and

spk_0 Good Morning America, there's NBC in today's show, like let's turn CBS into something

spk_0 that fills a different, that occupies a different lane.

spk_0 And lo and behold, like in that milieu, which I like to call the Sun Valley set, you know,

spk_0 all the sort of Hollywood media executive types, Barry, by virtue of, you know, waging

spk_0 her campaign against mainstream media and the illiberalism of the New York Times, by virtue

spk_0 of her saying out loud, you know, that woke is a bad thing, by virtue of her standing up

spk_0 for Israel, she became immensely appealing to that crowd.

spk_0 And so I think that David, who's, you know, got limitless capital and is sort of building

spk_0 his own empire and may, may also go after Warner Brothers discovery and bring CNN into

spk_0 the portfolio.

spk_0 He's thinking, okay, well, I also have this news division.

spk_0 I wanted to better reflect my politics.

spk_0 There might be a market opportunity here.

spk_0 Why not?

spk_0 I don't think he, I don't think he suffers the, the acute sense of nostalgia that so many

spk_0 journalists have for what CBS news used to be.

spk_0 I think he wants it to be different and interesting.

spk_0 I think he really likes Barry's politics and he saw an opportunity for what in his world

spk_0 is not a lot of money to bring her into the fold and put her atop this news organization

spk_0 and at least make it interesting.

spk_0 And so this thing that I think is sort of an ethema to so many traditional journalists,

spk_0 this notion that Barry Weiss could somehow wield editorial control of this century old

spk_0 news network is actually is now going, is is going to happen by the time your listeners

spk_0 are hearing this, like, within a matter of hours.

spk_0 Right.

spk_0 So, there's a couple things in there just to go back to tie off a couple loose ends.

spk_0 Barry has investors, right, in the preprocess.

spk_0 Yes, yes.

spk_0 Right.

spk_0 Many of whom are among that Sun Valley set.

spk_0 Right.

spk_0 So, you know, they're going to get paid, they're going to get paid for the free press.

spk_0 First people who are going to get paid are the investors.

spk_0 She's going to get, then there's going to be her and the co-founders who are going to

spk_0 take the lion share of the rest of the rest of the sale price.

spk_0 And then that's going to be partly in stock and partly in cash.

spk_0 So not to challenge your notion that she's getting paid a lot of money and that it's going

spk_0 to be generational wealth.

spk_0 I'm just, just to clarify, you know, depending on what the stock and cash mix is, she could

spk_0 end up getting a lot of CBS and a lot of a paramount stock.

spk_0 And that's, and that's, and that she's not obviously going to be getting the whole of

spk_0 the sale price.

spk_0 The majority of the sale price is going to be going to her investors.

spk_0 So she's going to get, she can make money, but she's not, nobody should be under the

spk_0 illusion that she's getting $150 million in cash on the barrel head here.

spk_0 No, that's absolutely right.

spk_0 It's absolutely right.

spk_0 And I don't have to break down exactly what it is.

spk_0 But let's put it this way.

spk_0 What you're looking at is the free press probably does somewhere between 15 to 20 million

spk_0 in annual revenue.

spk_0 So you're looking at somewhere between like a seven and a half to 10x multiple, which

spk_0 is a great multiple for a heavily politicized opinion, news and opinion, but really opinion

spk_0 site that's really like exposed to a lot of key man risk because frankly, like the business

spk_0 is Barry.

spk_0 So yes, totally a lot of this is going to be stock and she's, it's, she's not, there's

spk_0 not going to be some massive windfall on day one.

spk_0 But the exit here, the offer here on the table from David Ellison was decidedly something

spk_0 that was too good for her to pass up.

spk_0 Right.

spk_0 So, you know, that's a, I look, no one's, no one's in any way dissing the, the value that

spk_0 she's getting the free press has fetched a pretty penny for what it is.

spk_0 And so, you know, get hats off.

spk_0 And certainly whatever she ends up taking out in cash and stock is something that you,

spk_0 neither you nor I would, would turn up our nose at, right?

spk_0 Correct.

spk_0 Let's say that.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 The second question I have is asking the, the dumb, dumb question, right, which is you

spk_0 started by saying that if David Ellison and Jeff Shell were able to take over Paramount

spk_0 without the news division, without CBS news attached to it, that they probably, they

spk_0 probably would have.

spk_0 And then you said that CBS news, I think correctly said it is basically at best a break

spk_0 even operation, probably a money losing operation all, all in, right?

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 So, why is the answer to that?

spk_0 If those two things are both true, why is the answer to that not, let's just shut down

spk_0 that CBS news.

spk_0 We didn't want it to begin with and it doesn't make any money.

spk_0 Why not kill it?

spk_0 That's a great question.

spk_0 I think, not that I'm pulled that by the way, but just to say like it's a reasonable logical

spk_0 question.

spk_0 Sure.

spk_0 I think, well, there are two ways to look at this.

spk_0 One is there is a degree of influence that comes from owning a news network that can create

spk_0 extraordinary headaches as Sherry Redstone, the previous owner of Paramount knows, but

spk_0 that also confers certain benefits, which is presumably why a guy like Jeff Bezos goes

spk_0 and buys the Washington Post.

spk_0 Are the benefits worth the headaches, worth having to deal with FCC chairman, Brendan

spk_0 Carr?

spk_0 I don't know.

spk_0 But you do have it and I imagine that things would get pretty messy if you tried to shut

spk_0 down one of the three big broadcast news networks.

spk_0 I don't know exactly how they get messy, but I imagine they get messy.

spk_0 But I think what's sort of more compelling here is if you accept the thesis that owning

spk_0 a news network can be advantageous.

spk_0 And then you look a few moves ahead on the chess board at David's desire to acquire Warner

spk_0 Brothers Discovery, which would bring CNN into the portfolio.

spk_0 People have been talking about tying up CNN and CBS news for at least two and a half decades.

spk_0 I mean, every sort of five or ten years, you know, whoever is in control of CNN, there's

spk_0 a story here about why that would make sense.

spk_0 You have a cable network and a broadcast network.

spk_0 It would clear the regulatory hurdles and both sides would benefit.

spk_0 It's not hard for me to see that part of the empire that David is trying to build would

spk_0 include the CBS CNN tie up, which by the way might conceivably extend Barry's remit

spk_0 over CNN as well.

spk_0 And so I think that might be part of the motivation here.

spk_0 Right.

spk_0 So it's like it's kind of more precise to say that David Ellison and Jeff Schelpe would

spk_0 have been happy to acquire and would still have very much wanted to acquire the paramount

spk_0 empire if CBS news wasn't part of it.

spk_0 But maybe they didn't quite, it's going a little bit too far to say they would rather

spk_0 not have had it attached.

spk_0 They looked at it and thought the reasons for that that because it was attached, the

spk_0 reasons that they could see some upside in that had to do with influence and cultural

spk_0 currency and so on and so forth.

spk_0 And maybe some way to figure out something that a lot of us have thought about a lot over

spk_0 the last decade, which is people still want to news is still consumed by billions of

spk_0 people, right?

spk_0 Yes.

spk_0 And video is still also viewed by billions of people.

spk_0 The old structures of linear cable news and broadcast news make no sense whatsoever.

spk_0 But the hunger for seeing news content and seeing it visually as opposed to reading it

spk_0 is still vast as YouTube demonstrates.

spk_0 So is there a way to write size those assets and create something that is either a news

spk_0 gathering or a news interpreting video operation built on those assets that could be super compelling

spk_0 when everything is up for grabs in the world of video news, again, for which there is a large

spk_0 and robust audience and potentially profits to be made if someone can figure out how to

spk_0 crack the code on the right business model?

spk_0 Yeah, I think that's absolutely right.

spk_0 And I think that those, the team that David has in place are at least tempted by that idea,

spk_0 right?

spk_0 We know that news is going to matter.

spk_0 There is, even though it's so hard for people to crack and even though media executives,

spk_0 like, you know, that David has loves and Brian Roberts of the world love to joke about how

spk_0 their news division accounts for like 5% of profits and 95% of their headaches.

spk_0 They are still tempted by the influence.

spk_0 I mean, you look at what like Murdoch built.

spk_0 I think if you're someone like David Ellison, particularly if you're his dad, Larry Ellison,

spk_0 that piece becomes tempting.

spk_0 At a certain point, you know, what do you get the guy who already has everything?

spk_0 Like if you can crack the news game, that is a level of power and influence that I think nothing else can deliver.

spk_0 What do you get the guy who has more money than he knows what to do with?

spk_0 Like, he has plenty of money.

spk_0 Where money is not really the point anymore.

spk_0 I mean, always everybody has, everyone has a lot of money, always wants more money.

spk_0 But that you start to think about things like, how do you change the world?

spk_0 How do you influence the course of human events?

spk_0 How do you have influence?

spk_0 How do you get the best table at the most sought after restaurant in the Hamptons?

spk_0 Like these are the things that start to matter to you at that point.

spk_0 Exactly.

spk_0 I think David Ellison will have a hard time getting a table anywhere he wants.

spk_0 My last question about this is David Ellison's politics.

spk_0 Because you mentioned that.

spk_0 Build a news organization that's more aligned with his politics.

spk_0 You know, I don't know David Ellison.

spk_0 Larry, his father, I know a little bit and has always been a Republican, is now a Trump Republican, not surprising.

spk_0 David Ellison wrote a million dollar check to the Biden Victory Fund in 2024.

spk_0 And people who know him have said before that they don't really understand his politics,

spk_0 that they don't think of him as being as Republican, as reliable, or Republican, as his dad,

spk_0 at least not until now.

spk_0 Now, you know, all people's politics, as you know, Dylan in this business are in flux, are fluid.

spk_0

spk_0 In the world we live in.

spk_0 But do you have a sense of, is David Ellison's politics roughly bury Wises politics?

spk_0 Is that your sense of it, which is to say she would say that she's not MAGA.

spk_0 She would say she's an anti-woke classical liberal, I believe, is what she would say.

spk_0 Is that kind of where David Ellison is on the cultural politics scale?

spk_0 And then his partisan politics are kind of fluid.

spk_0 He's going to do what he needs to do, as we have seen, to make sure that Trump doesn't fucking over.

spk_0 Is that essentially what we think David Ellison is politically speaking?

spk_0 Yeah, I think that hits the nail on the head.

spk_0 I think this is part of the appeal to Barry, again, going back to her investors,

spk_0 who include like Howard Schultz of Starbucks and Bobby Codic of Activision.

spk_0 And again, like that sort of business class, which the politics are not...

spk_0 And there are exceptions to the rule, right?

spk_0 There are vowed Democrats, vowed anti-Trumpers, vowed pro-Trumpers among that group.

spk_0 But for the most part, I think it's a largely libertarian or classically liberal mindset

spk_0 that went through a sort of trauma during the course of COVID plus the post-George Floyd moment in American history.

spk_0 And this sort of feeling that all of a sudden, they were...

spk_0 Because of the rise of wokeism or identity politics or whatever you want to call it,

spk_0 they effectively felt like they weren't allowed to say certain things.

spk_0 They weren't allowed to behave in certain ways.

spk_0 And by the way, there are certain ways and certain behaviors that shouldn't have been tolerated.

spk_0 But they felt like all of a sudden they were living in this world where

spk_0 they could get canceled for something they said, none of their employees wanted to come into the office.

spk_0 All of a sudden, it became controversial to support Israel.

spk_0 Barry came forward and basically said, it's okay to make fun of the woke kids.

spk_0 It's okay to tell your employees to shut the fuck up and come back to work.

spk_0 It's okay to be a vowed pro-Israel.

spk_0 And I think they really gravitated toward that.

spk_0 I think it was really nice to have someone all of a sudden show up and say, like, no, guys,

spk_0 you're allowed to say these things again.

spk_0 And so I think their politics sort of live somewhere in that lane.

spk_0 I think a lot of people would refer to it as center right.

spk_0 I think it's people who basically think the New York Times is too liberal.

spk_0 And, you know, sort of would rather read the Wall Street Journal.

spk_0 And then maybe even sometimes think the Wall Street Journal is too liberal.

spk_0 But aren't necessarily pro-Trump, aren't necessarily Fox News enthusiasts.

spk_0 Right. And another way to think about that is that it's possible.

spk_0 I'm this is purely a speculative venture, although I would bet a decent,

spk_0 the small amount of your paycheck I would bet on this, that basically David Ellison's politics

spk_0 are like a lot of other Silicon Valley bros of his generation, which is that they're like Mark

spk_0 Zuckerberg's politics, which is to say kind of like, I want to do what I want, say what I say,

spk_0 and get paid a lot of money.

spk_0 I have nobody really yell at me.

spk_0 And if that means I have to suck up to Trump when he's president and Biden when he's president.

spk_0 And if there's, and if Zora Mom Donnie is president of the United States in 2028,

spk_0 I mean, somehow if that were to happen, unlikely as it is, you know, Mark Zuckerberg

spk_0 keep fine a way to become like a charter member of the Silicon Valley tech bros for Zora and

spk_0 fan club, right? I mean, there's no fixed politics there. That's just an opportunity to think that's

spk_0 yes, except for let me make as much as I've said my capitalist.

spk_0 I want to make my capitalism.

spk_0 And I would like to be able to say what I want to say.

spk_0 Other than that, I'll do whatever I need to do to being good with whoever's in power.

spk_0 They are consistent with being anti-regulation

spk_0 into the extent that it stands in the way of their business.

spk_0 And I think they are, I do think that for some of this crowd, particularly Larry Ellison,

spk_0 Sherry Redstone, again, previous owner of Paramount, there is a very, the politics of Israel

spk_0 tend to matter a lot among this.

spk_0 Sure.

spk_0 Those are very important.

spk_0 That specific issue is very important to them.

spk_0 And yes.

spk_0 And then I think that just I do think that there was a real, I think there were a lot of those

spk_0 corner tables in the Hamptons and in Brentwood and Beverly Hills where

spk_0 the amount of just like what the hell is going on with the wokeism, what the hell is going on with

spk_0 like the slack channel trying to dictate the direction of the company.

spk_0 There was a lot of frustration with that that was palpable over the last few years.

spk_0 Yes, there definitely was.

spk_0 And in some cases, justifiably, I have one more Barry-related line of questioning for you, Dylan,

spk_0 but we need to take a break.

spk_0 So we will return to that line of questioning, which is all about the incoming

spk_0 editor-in-chief of CBS News, Barry Weiss.

spk_0 And why on earth Barry Weiss wants that gig at all in the first place and just how hard

spk_0 doing it well is going to be for her. We'll get to all of that right after these words.

spk_0 What's up guys, it's Candace Dillard Bassett, former real housewife of Potomac.

spk_0 And I'm Michael Arsino, author of The New York Times Best Seller, I Can't Day Jesus.

spk_0 And this is undemesticated. The podcast where we aren't just saying the choir parts out loud.

spk_0 We're putting it all on the kitchen table and inviting you to the function.

spk_0 If you're ready for some bold takes and a little bit of chaos, welcome to Undemesticated.

spk_0 Follow and listen to Undemesticated, by LeBot Wherever You Get Your Podcast.

spk_0 My own feeling on it when I saw it was it's like Barry's doing well with the free press.

spk_0 She's got a lot of investors who she's, you know, doing a good job for and they'll probably take

spk_0 a hefty amount of that money. But to me, this feels like somebody comes up to you and says,

spk_0 I've got this beautiful ship I'd love for you to captain. It's absolutely gorgeous.

spk_0 You might even call it unsinkable. It's going to set sail on the Atlantic. We're going to head north

spk_0 into the Arctic area. There may be a couple of icebergs. I'm sure you'll be fine. Here's the wheel.

spk_0 Why would you go into mainstream media right now?

spk_0 It's dead. It's dying. It absolutely is on track for the iceberg. I just don't understand

spk_0 the allure. So that was Megan Kelly reacting to the news, which she probably read when you first

spk_0 broke a Dylan, the news that Paramount was going to buy the free press and install Barry in some

spk_0 position of high leadership at CBS News. We now know editor-in-chief. And Megan Kelly,

spk_0 they're asking what I think is a not unreasonable set of questions. If you are someone who's

spk_0 thrived in the creator economy as both Megan Kelly and Barry Weiss have done. The thing that I

spk_0 think of when I hear that is beyond all the personal stuff of Megan Kelly that comes through their

spk_0 her own agenda and her own experiences is you might as well as it's like Barry, the host body

spk_0 that you were about to try to inhabit and change. There are going to be a lot of antibodies

spk_0 who are going to try to fight you off and try to kill you as if you were an infection. We've seen

spk_0 what happened to others very different circumstances with Chris Lick that CNN, but not

spk_0 wholly different. These are high bound institutions that have built up a lot of

spk_0 scar tissue and a lot of resistance to change agents of various kinds. She may be more effective

spk_0 as a change agent of the Chris Lick. She may not. But she's going to encounter a lot of the same

spk_0 kind of institutional sclerosis when she gets there. How do you think she thinks about that?

spk_0 About how steep the hill is that she has to climb. She's going to actually change CPS news.

spk_0 I mean, look, there's a lot of people around there who are going to be setting out traps for her

spk_0 on that mountain side. She tries to climb it. The moment that she walks in the door.

spk_0 This is sort of the essential question because yes, there are going to be a lot of antibodies.

spk_0 The longer an institution has been around the higher its sense of self and its sense of its own

spk_0 importance, the harder it is to change the culture. The infrastructure that is being set up for

spk_0 Barry is going to be as advantageous as possible because she is going to report directly to David

spk_0 Ellison. There will be no Tom Sibraski, who's the president of CBS news, will not be able to tell her

spk_0 no. She will get to dictate the editorial direction. There could be a lot of people in the company

spk_0 who don't like that vision and will either leave of their own volition, which might be a welcome

spk_0 development for the new regime, or might get laid off because the other elephant in the room here

spk_0 is that CBS news is going to lay off, maybe as many as a hundred people I'm told in the coming weeks.

spk_0 She has the blessing of David Ellison and David Ellison as the boss. That will help. I think what I

spk_0 am as interested in, which is a different side of this question. The brand that Barry built for

spk_0 herself at the New York Times, and then especially over the last five years, is the outsider,

spk_0 the person who's sort of railing against the institution, against the establishment, saying that

spk_0 mainstream media, progressivism, it has all gone off true north and gone illiberal. I hear on my

spk_0 sub-stack in this lone truth teller who is saying all the uncomfortable things that the establishment

spk_0 media won't tell you. The question is what happens when you become the establishment? Because it is

spk_0 really easy to sort of punch up or to play the outsider if you're running your sub-stack and your

spk_0 own little shingle. But if you get put in charge of this storied news institution and your

spk_0 programming is running in between like NFL games and NCIS reruns, that is a different, you know what I

spk_0 mean? It is very hard to go after the establishment from that perch. What I think will be interesting

spk_0 is what do you do? What sort of responsibility do you assume? Then that undercurrent of everything

spk_0 that gets written at the free press, which is sort of like we're telling you what the mainstream

spk_0 media won't tell you, that's not a crutch you can lean on anymore. You're going to have to take

spk_0 really thoughtful positions that say something, that say more about what you were speaking for

spk_0 rather than just what you were speaking against. And it's going to be interesting to see how she does

spk_0 that. Now, a code out of all this is that my view is that there's a lot of anxiety among

spk_0 CBS news veterans among the sort of champions of mainstream media who feel like Barry represents

spk_0 this rupture with the tradition of Maro and Cronkite and rather and Sheifer and so on and so forth.

spk_0 I think that if you get outside of the Israel question and the Wilkism question,

spk_0 Barry's politics are actually much more centrist and palatable than people think.

spk_0 She's spoken out against Trump. When the Kimmel thing happened, she spoke out against what

spk_0 Chairman Carr was doing. She will be more palatable, I think. And in fact, I wouldn't be surprised

spk_0 if her first sort of brush with controversy comes because her sort of free speech

spk_0 out absolutism puts her at odds with President Trump. So this is going to be more interesting and

spk_0 nuanced and I don't think you're going to see like the Nora O'Donnell's of the world go running

spk_0 for the exits because Barry White showed up or the Bob Costas of the world. You know, I think those

spk_0 people are going to be like, okay, what can she do? And then frankly, it's going to come down

spk_0 a much more pedestrian concerns like, can we actually make the network interesting again?

spk_0 Can we actually pivot to a post linear model? Can we do something that doesn't make us feel like

spk_0 we're constantly churning viewers? Yeah, it's a look to use the to strike what the obvious metaphor

spk_0 here, you know, throwing rocks at rock glass houses from across the street. Very easy to hit the

spk_0 house. Very easy to break the glass. When you're inside, if you decided to throw rocks at the

spk_0 grass, how should you end up with shards of glass all over yourself? You know, it's just a lot harder.

spk_0 It's like a lot harder to do. I agree with you though and about the fact that you can see

spk_0 that the first thing that's going to happen is she's going to tack down Trump over something like

spk_0 the FCC, Brendan Carthlick. And Trump is going to be like on the phone with David also going,

spk_0 you know, fuck. Did I read you said, one of your comps that I read you said that you thought

spk_0 there might be a place in this new vice regime for my friend James Bennett? Did I remember?

spk_0 Is that you reported that? Yes. Was that state? I don't. Was that state?

spk_0 That was the first person reported, but it is true. It's definitely true. I don't know where it

spk_0 stands and you're reminding me that before I file, I should probably check in and see if I can

spk_0 hook that into my latest piece. But yeah, she's talking to James Bennett, which makes a lot of

spk_0 sense because of course it was, it was, you know, when they wrote the Tomcott or they, sorry,

spk_0 when the New York Times published the Tomcott Not Bad Send in the Troops. Right. That was

spk_0 there was all that furer. And it was, it was the peak time I'm talking about that all these guys

spk_0 the workers out of the rule of the rule of the world slack. Yes. And we now are in a different time

spk_0 and Tomcott and has written that up at all over again for the Wall Street Journal and I think it

spk_0 even had the same headline send in the troops and no one made a stink about it. But she,

spk_0 her resignation was in part a protest of that sort of mentality, the mentality that could truly sway

spk_0 AG Sillsberger to initially come out in support of James Bennett and then reverse course and

spk_0 get rid of him. And so I wouldn't surprise me at all to see Bennett wind up at CBS and at the

spk_0 free press. I mean, it still is when people look for good examples and not bullshit examples of

spk_0 of wokeism run a muck like examples that even I who think that a lot of the accusations of

spk_0 wokeism run a run a muck are self-serving and made up that is an example of something where it's

spk_0 like that this was a really this was that was an example of a thing where it was fucking crazy that

spk_0 it was crazy. And it's not just because James is a really good friend of mine. But the idea of the

spk_0 op-ed page editor of the New York Times would get fired because he published an article by a

spk_0 sitting United States Senator and a potential presidential candidate down the line who wrote a

spk_0 thing that many people millions of people in the country agreed with that you would get fired for

spk_0 that. It was bonkers. It was it was totally ridiculous. It's a stain a deep, deep stain on the New

spk_0 York Times leadership at the time that it had there ever happened. Just you know, just for your

spk_0 reporting purposes, Dylan, you won't be able to reach James right now. He's on holiday in

spk_0 Southern Africa. He just texted me some incredible pictures of lions and rhinos just this morning.

spk_0 So you'll have to wait for him to get back from the velled and to re-enter the urban media juggle

spk_0 before you can find out for certain if he's going to join CBS News or not. But speaking of the

spk_0 urban media jungle, hard turn here. Jimmy Kimmel made his annual pilgrimage to the East Coast

spk_0 last week to do the full week of shows, a week long run from the Brooklyn Academy of Music.

spk_0 And the guests he lined up for Bruce Springsteen to Steven Colbert to everybody of the world came.

spk_0 It was a very big week for him. And you had Kimmel and Colbert sit down and do simultaneous

spk_0 appearances on each other's show where Kimmel told the story of what had happened beat by beat

spk_0 from his point of view in terms of his firing. It was compelling television. And then he and

spk_0 Colbert as part of this, you know, the coming back and forth being on these other shows as part of

spk_0 that, he and Colbert had this exchange that we're going to play during Kimmel's appearance on the

spk_0 late show at the Ed Sullivan Theater. Take a listen. No, you started as a radio, you know,

spk_0 a disjockey. As you said, when you were, you know, spinning platters and making with a banter,

spk_0 did you ever think the president of the United States would be celebrating your unemployment?

spk_0 I mean, that son of a bitch, you know, is really unbelievable. Mr. Son of a bitch. I mean, Mr. Son of a bitch.

spk_0 His loyal, yeah, no, I never imagined that we'd ever have a president like this. And I hope we

spk_0 don't ever have another president like this again. I never imagined there would ever be a situation

spk_0 in which the president of our country was celebrating hundreds of Americans losing their jobs.

spk_0 But somebody who took pleasure in that, that to me is the absolute opposite of what a leader

spk_0 of this country is supposed to be. So that was a bit of punctuation in a way on this chapter,

spk_0 this chapter of the Kimmel Trump story. And I think that actually makes it a good place to look

spk_0 back on it all as we, as the dust has now settled a little bit. Where do you think Kimmel stands?

spk_0 And what do you think the next beat of the story is? Because my view has been throughout,

spk_0 has been, I'm really glad that Jimmy Kimmel got back on the air. I'm really glad that Disney

spk_0 caved in. I'm really glad that the chairman's obviously anti first, anti first amendment dangerous

spk_0 to public free expression stance was defeated in the moment. But I just don't think this,

spk_0 this, that that battle may have been one, but the war is not over and Trump and Brennan Carr are

spk_0 not suddenly going to be like, hey, you know what? Ah, moving on. We're not going to take on,

spk_0 we're not going to take on the news media anymore. We're not going to take on the late nethouse

spk_0 anymore. There's another, you know, the next beat is yet to come. So just give me your overall

spk_0 sense of lessons learned and what the future immediate future looks like in that war.

spk_0 I definitely agree with you that it's not over. And one lesson, I think where this sort of

spk_0 Kimmel thing netted out certainly for Disney and I think for the media industry more broadly,

spk_0 is there's not one, there's not one concession you can make to this administration that gets the

spk_0 monkey off your back. The initial 16 million, 15, 16 million dollar settlement that Bob Iger made

spk_0 in order to put away the George Stephanopoulos lawsuit was I think they hoped would be that

spk_0 concession. And then lo and behold, Brennan Carr came back after Kimmel. So these things don't go

spk_0 away. I do think that the blowback was so overwhelming and severe from every corner, whether you're

spk_0 talking about Obama or Ted Cruz or the creative community in Hollywood or you know Iger's on

spk_0 predecessor, Michael Eisner, that Iger has now been in the churn and the churn now what we know

spk_0 is like a real spike in the churn in terms of who do the plus and who lose subscriptions and so on.

spk_0 Yes. And I think that has put Iger in a place where he can't, he basically has been forced

spk_0 to pick the side that I think is as a human being. I think he would rather have picked in the first

spk_0 place, but as a business leader, he's sort of wavered. Like, you know, like how much can I, how much can

spk_0 I capitulate before it's a bad, it reflects badly on me, on my brand, on the Disney brand. We've

spk_0 basically figured out what that line is and now he is in a position and Disney is in a position

spk_0 where barring Kimmel going totally off the rails, which I don't think Kimmel's going to do,

spk_0 um, Disney has to have his back in this fight and in future fights. I do think one thing that the

spk_0 whole embryo highlighted is that, you know, initially we looked at the power of the FCC to

spk_0 regulate broadcast licenses and thought, okay, this is this really unique area where the administration

spk_0 can exert pressure on media organizations and make their lives a living hell. I think what we

spk_0 learned though through the process of it is that the media companies themselves, the broadcasters

spk_0 themselves actually have a lot of leverage. At a certain point, it wasn't advantageous for next

spk_0 star or sinclair to preempt Kimmel in perpetuity. At a certain point, that wasn't good for their

spk_0 business. Right. I also think, by the way, it's like, it also sort of highlighted that Brendan

spk_0 Car's jurisdiction is pretty limited. You know, I mean, Trump's been suing the New York Times and

spk_0 Wall Street Journal and the Salisburgers and the Murdoch's have effectively said fuck you.

spk_0 So there is this weird little play box to go back to Megan Kelly's point, a dying industry

spk_0 where like, yes, there can be a lot of fireworks and a lot of fanfare. But at the end of the day,

spk_0 I think that Trump's power over the media in that regard, in that overt pressure campaign,

spk_0 is actually more limited than we think. And I think that this whole affair has highlighted that.

spk_0 And then, you know, I think, yeah. I was just going to say, you think next star and sinclair

spk_0 looked up, maybe this is obvious, but they looked up and said, as we watch our linear audiences

spk_0 race to YouTube to watch these clips, you know, we are in fact,

spk_0 robbing Peter to pay Paul. We're making our conservative broadcasts, our conservative linear

spk_0 viewers happy by keeping Kimmel off the air. But we're losing. We're alerting a whole bunch of

spk_0 other people that you know, there's another way to watch him. Kimmel that has nothing to do with sinclair

spk_0 or next star. And you're just like causing people to realize who haven't already realized the

spk_0 few people who haven't. Hey, you know, you can cut the cord and still see all of Kimmel for free.

spk_0 Yes. On YouTube. That's right. Like they went, oh, maybe we, we, we next star, we, we, we sinclair,

spk_0 maybe we shouldn't do that. Maybe we shouldn't send our audiences over to that platform.

spk_0 It's like, you know, maybe we're actually just digger-own grave here. Yes.

spk_0 Right. Yeah, I think I think that's a really big piece of it. And then I also just think the politics

spk_0 of it were actually more nuanced again, going back to like the Ted Cruz criticism, the Tucker Carlson

spk_0 criticism of what, of what the chairman was doing. It's like you and I are sitting here. I think we're

spk_0 both, I assume we're both, you know, fans of the New York Times and loyal New York Times readers.

spk_0 Sure. We can acknowledge that the way the New York Times handled James, James Bennett was really

spk_0 shoddy and really humiliating. It's the same thing with the way that I got handled Kimmel. It's just

spk_0 not the way, it's not the way this is supposed to work for anyone on either side of the aisle.

spk_0 And I think that that, I think it, I think as time went on, I think it became clear that that

spk_0 was a debate they were going to lose. Well, and also, I mean, the biggest difference, of course, is that

spk_0 the Times was not capitulating. The Times did a tear. I mean, I stand by what I said about

spk_0 how they handled the totally, but they were not capitulating to a president. I mean, the,

spk_0 the fundamental reality that, that all these people somehow, I took them this long to learn. And

spk_0 God knows, I bet Dylan, you could have told them this. I know I could have. I would have said,

spk_0 guys like, you know, the bully who threatens the kid on the playground and takes their lunch and

spk_0 their lunch money, they do not learn from that. Well, I got his lunch and I got his lunch money. I'm

spk_0 done with that kid. They're back the next day, saying, bring another 10 bucks from your mom and

spk_0 also tell her to cut the crust off the sandwiches next time, motherfucker. That's what the bully does.

spk_0 The bully just comes back for more. They never are satisfied with the, with the first win. They always

spk_0 think, oh, well, I could, that was like walking through an open door. I'll just walk through it again.

spk_0 And, and I'll, and I'll ask for more of the next time. So, you know, always better, I think,

spk_0 to grow a pair of the dependent knee, not because, because I'm principle, I mean, on principle,

spk_0 better, it's better to grow a pair of the dependent knee, but also strategic knee, you just,

spk_0 strategic, you just get kicked again. You just get kicked over over again once you're on your knees.

spk_0 You know, yes. That's right. Do you think this means Kimmel now, who, you know, in a conversation,

spk_0 I think you and I have had before, but, you know, the general view, there was one piece of kind of

spk_0 smart guy, conventional wisdom, which was, I think it maybe even emanated from John Stewart,

spk_0 who said something at some point on, I think on Bill Simmons's podcast a few months ago, he's like,

spk_0 you know, the, the late night era is over. You would never launch a late night show the way that we

spk_0 do these shows now with a big audience and live audience, etc. Are you with the way Amy Polar is

spk_0 doing in the podcast world? And everyone sort of assumed that when the deals were up, that,

spk_0 even if there was no Trump, Colbert, Kimmel, Fallon eventually would be the last generation of

spk_0 traditional late night hosts and Stewart and Seth. There would not be replacements for those in

spk_0 that same model, right? And Kimmel's deal, I think, is up relatively soon. And people thought he

spk_0 might not, that would, this would be it for me, do another year and then he, he'd call it a day.

spk_0 Do you think now he's like going to be looking for a renewal because this has elevated him in a way

spk_0 that makes him more powerful, commercially more powerful, culturally than he was before?

spk_0 He's certainly more powerful, culturally than he was before without without a doubt. I think that,

spk_0 I don't know how much longer he has on this contract. And I suppose it's conceivable that you

spk_0 renew once more. But the broader point you're making is, right, like this is the Colbert, Kimmel,

spk_0 Fallon is the last generation of Marquis Star late night hosts and household names,

spk_0 guys who you would recognize, you know, who everyone would recognize on the street. And that,

spk_0 that model is shifting toward podcasting. I mean, you even think about what is, what was late night

spk_0 really late night was an excuse for you, you, you, you had funny comedians who told jokes and it

spk_0 was an excuse for anyone who was selling a movie or a TV show or running for president or whatever

spk_0 it might have been to go on and get some pretty softball questions for a segment. Right. That is

spk_0 smartless. That's just smartless. That is what, you know, I mean, like that's Amy Poller. That is,

spk_0 that is where that business is going. And the economics of late night don't work out.

spk_0 Whatever, whatever compelled David Ellison to green light Colbert's cancellation, it was losing

spk_0 money, indisputably, it was losing money. So I, you know, I think if you're Kimmel, you definitely,

spk_0 you definitely are, you're in a better position now in terms of your own personal brand than I

spk_0 don't want to discount that in the same way that John Stewart probably peaked with the daily show

spk_0 and Letterman probably peaked on CBS, not, you know, with his Netflix deal. Like God love them both.

spk_0 It's not as though you can then go out and do something new and all of a sudden you'll be able

spk_0 to reap the same rewards or even the same revenue. So my guess is Kimmel probably wants to hold onto this

spk_0 and tell the runway runs out and, and then he'll be set up nicely reputationally for whatever comes next.

spk_0 I mean, it's fascinating because there are people who make the argument now that like Conan is bigger,

spk_0 more successful, more, making more money and drawing a larger audience that he ever did in any of his

spk_0 various late night permutations. And I agree with you about Letterman, but you know, it's, you know,

spk_0 I'll tell you, I'll tell you, I know for, I know for a fact, those three guys on Smart List,

spk_0 they are making more money from that than they have ever made doing anything else or that they ever will

spk_0 doing anything else and they are attracting a gargiant you an audience, maybe not as big as Will and Grace

spk_0 at its peak for Sean. Yeah. Yeah. But the downloads on that show are astronomical and those guys are

spk_0 going to look for a new deal next year that's going to be more than the $200 million they got paid by

spk_0 Sirius for the last two year deal. And they're going to get it. And they're going to get it.

spk_0 Yes. So if you can figure out how to operate in that space, you're great. I'm just saying some people

spk_0 sort of have the muscle memory of a former medium. Yeah. I agree. I assume you think that that that

spk_0 Fallon will be the last to go because the tonight show, I think, I mean, who knows will happen in our

spk_0 media environment. I do think that tonight show has just in terms of its legacy, how long it's been

spk_0 around and how in a way that that not none of the other late night shows, certainly not Jimmy's and

spk_0 even the late show are not as tied into the brand of NBC. I mean, if NBC continues to exist,

spk_0 you know, SNL and and and that's and that's a night show are are so deeply baked into what NBC

spk_0 continues to mean to anybody in the world, you know, along with the today show. What else is NBC

spk_0 really anybody? I mean, even the shows they air are not as as as core to their identity as those

spk_0 three entities. I think those entities they'll figure out a way to try to keep those entities on the

spk_0 air for a really long time. And and I think I I fall in will be the last host of the tonight show,

spk_0 but that might last longer than people think. I think it will too. And he also did the thing that I

spk_0 think, you know, the again, the going back to that media executive class, he didn't do what the

spk_0 others did, which is he didn't become overtly political and that helps, right? Like the today show

spk_0 does not make a ton of money for NBC because of the first 10 minutes when they tell you the news,

spk_0 makes a ton of money because people want, you know, cherry pie recipes and parenting advice.

spk_0 Dude, the wine spritzers and that the wine spritzers and that fourth hour, the wine like,

spk_0 you don't learn how to make you can make an apparel spritch. You can make a thing that you can make

spk_0 up. Yeah. All kinds of spritzes. Yeah. Here's the hack. They tell you how to do it on the back of the

spk_0 bottle. But yes, they're they're like, Fallon will probably I would assume will be the last. Fallon

spk_0 will be there and he will be because because it does mean so much to NBC and because he is so

spk_0 palatable, which I hope I hope reads is both a compliment and a bit of a dig. He is just so

spk_0 palatable to such a mass market audience. Well, the lack of politics in this environment,

spk_0 you know, is both a blessing and a curve. I mean, so it takes away some of your relevancy and

spk_0 your currency because we live in such politicized times, but it also makes you much more palatable

spk_0 to people who are like, I don't want any fucking politics, which is part of why Smartless works,

spk_0 because they're like, yes, you know, keep the politics off their show, please. Okay, Dylan,

spk_0 we need to sneak in one more quick break. But I still have several other media-related topics that

spk_0 I refuse to let you leave without giving us your take on. So we're going to sell some subplates,

spk_0 and then we're going to come back for a rapid fire big finish with you, with the one won't be

spk_0 Dylan Byers, everyone's the graph.

spk_0 One year ago, Sora won redefined what was possible with moving images. Today, we're announcing the

spk_0 Sora app powered by the all new Sora 2. It's the most powerful imagination engine ever built.

spk_0 That was Sam Altman of OpenAI announcing the release of Sora 2, which is the new suite of video

spk_0 AI tools from OpenAI. And Dylan, you know, I hadn't been waiting around with Bated Breath for Sora 2.

spk_0 I didn't even know it was coming, but like all of a sudden last week, I'm looking at an Instagram,

spk_0 and I'm seeing all these stories from the accounts of a lot of my friends in Hollywood,

spk_0 and a lot of them are using posting video that used the Sora tools to create it. And you know,

spk_0 the Hollywood freak out of our AI is, I think, in general, quite intense and not misplaced.

spk_0 Is this fueling more of that freak out, or are people starting to take it a little bit more

spk_0 in stride, where you sit out there in law? No, I think the freak out is very real. It's palpable

spk_0 out here, and it's not as though people think that, you know, tomorrow we're going to wake up in a,

spk_0 in a, the next blockbuster Oscar winner is going to be entirely generated by AI. But what you're

spk_0 basically seeing is a number of the tools necessary to create video content. All of the friction is

spk_0 going away. I wouldn't know the first thing, like a year ago, I wouldn't have known the first

spk_0 thing about how to create a video because I just don't have that proficiency or that education.

spk_0 And now I can just plug in a few inputs, and I can create something which by the way, like video

spk_0 happens to be much easier for consumers to digest, and it's a very compelling format. And so if

spk_0 you give that tool to everyone with a, you know, who can tweet or everyone who can post, you know,

spk_0 post something on Instagram, I think that's really powerful. And I think that what you're going to

spk_0 see is just an acceleration of a barbelling in Hollywood that is already happening, where you're

spk_0 going to have, you know, otures and really, you know, the Scorsese's and all of those folks will

spk_0 continue to be fine. And down at the other end, you're going to have a lot of people who are

spk_0 relying a lot more heavily on AI generated content to create the sort of mass market.

spk_0 Programming that won't necessarily live in a movie theater or on a television screen, but we'll

spk_0 live on your phone. And people are going to spend more and more time watching that because people

spk_0 are going to come up with creative ways to use that. So it's not as though the Hollywood freakout is,

spk_0 oh my god, they're going to create movies this way, although that probably will happen to some

spk_0 extent. I think the Hollywood freakout is more just that more and more of audience engagement is

spk_0 going to continue to drift away from studios away from those who we have traditionally thought

spk_0 of as content makers because more and more people are going to be generating more compelling content

spk_0 from home from their phones. They definitely are. Okay, so next topic at our lightning round, Dylan,

spk_0 and I know we could talk all day about this, but just give me your sort of top line on

spk_0 where things stand with the reinvention of the Washington Post.

spk_0 The most compelling news coming out of the Washington Post now because two, well, two things,

spk_0 one, whatever will Lewis is doing to try and reinvent the post is a long, long way from fruition.

spk_0 Not unlike whatever Mark Thompson is doing at CNN. Like in a way, it's sort of,

spk_0 it's been so long that nothing has happened that even people inside the building at the

spk_0 Washington Post and at CNN have given up any hope that anything's going to happen.

spk_0 But there is one interesting thing happening at the Washington Post, which is

spk_0 Adam O'Neill, this 33-year-old, I was going to call him kid, 33-year-old guy who they brought in

spk_0 to oversee the transformation of the opinion page into a bastion of free market, free people,

spk_0 classically liberal politics, what Jeff Bezos wanted and what he established around the time he

spk_0 pulled the Kamala Harris endorsement. He is finally starting to make some hires. They're all

spk_0 conservative. He went out and gave an interview. He didn't say much, but he gave the interview to Fox

spk_0 News, which was notable. I think there's a lot of posturing right now to say, hey, the Washington

spk_0 Post opinion page is not going to be that overtly liberal page that people have historically associated

spk_0 with. The problem, if you don't say product differentiation right now, I mean, like in the

spk_0 podcast, fire you. 100%. The Wall Street Journal. The Wall Street Journal.

spk_0 And the economist and the economist, and the free press. He comes from and the free press.

spk_0 The guy's the O'Neill is from the economist, and economist, graduate as a my. The economist leaders

spk_0 have been writing free minds and free, free minds, free markets, free people for 175 years,

spk_0 Dylan and the original editorial page already has that position. So how's the Washington Post

spk_0 going to be any different if that's what they're going to do? The market fit, the market you are

spk_0 serving there reads the Wall Street Journal. They might be really tickled by the free press.

spk_0 They might read the economist every week. They don't, they're not going to give a shit that

spk_0 Adam O'Neill went out and hired a conservative columnist from the spectator and the Boston

spk_0 Globe editorial page or editorial board or someone from or someone from reason who's because

spk_0 someone from the libertarian proflout, libertarian, and it's from from the point of view of reason

spk_0 magazine. What are you going to do in that space if so many other people are already doing it better?

spk_0 If the zeitgeist right now is around Barry Weiss or the zeitgeist is around the Wall Street

spk_0 Journal editorial page constantly being the most provocative critic of President Trump,

spk_0 what are you going to do if you're this, if you're Adam O'Neill sitting at the Washington Post?

spk_0 Speaking of Washington, give me your your your brief poetic obit for Bob Barnett.

spk_0 You know my my great frustration with Bob Barnett is always that he was a shit source.

spk_0 He was a terrible source which is the highest compliment I owe back at Bayham because he had so

spk_0 many clients who I covered in the media space and obviously he you know the political space as

spk_0 well the Clintons etc. Right and he never divulged there would be a contract negotiation going on

spk_0 or I would catch wind of something and he would he would he was respectful and he got back to me

spk_0 and he was cheery and he got on the phone like we had had lunch a week ago even though we had never

spk_0 had lunch and I admired him immensely for that and it frustrated me so deeply that he never

spk_0 conveyed one morsel of information to me that would have helped my copy. Bob Barnett for anybody who

spk_0 doesn't already know was people referred to him as an agent Dylan you know that he did a lot

spk_0 of book deals he did a lot of book deals and movie deals and other deals for with the great

spk_0 good of Washington DC you want to know what the way why Bob Barnett would take umbridge if we

spk_0 now call them an agent the man was never paid ever a percentage of any deal. No he paid by the hour

spk_0 he was paid on an hourly basis and you want to know why the Clintons the Woodwards and a variety of

spk_0 other people all love Bob Barnett because they paid him by the hour and it was not a cheap it was

spk_0 not a cheap hourly rate yeah but it was less than it was less than a standard agents commission on

spk_0 those people who you know sell who move massive quantities of books and so on and they do very

spk_0 large deals they weren't paid him 10% or 15% let alone 20% they were paying him an hourly rate and

spk_0 you know I think a lot of them thought he was worth every penny because he was very good at what he

spk_0 did. Yes my last question yes the smashing machine one battle after another smashing machine

spk_0 course is the movie that supposedly is going to win the rock and academy. Oh yes this this one

spk_0 of the safty brothers I forget which safty but one of the safty brothers the director of that movie

spk_0 toane Johnson in it along with uh um Emily Blunt and in Paul Thomson's one battle after another

spk_0 the new decaprio Benicio Doutoro lots and lots of politics lots of violence in it have you seen

spk_0 either what's the buzz on both you know they're they both look like big Oscar candidates to me right

spk_0 now people are raving about both of these movies both of you know the early buzz is very good

spk_0 what do you know from your privilege perch high in the Hollywood Hills. So here's what I'm going to say

spk_0 one battle after another is going to win the Oscar for best picture and here's why I'm saying that

spk_0 I haven't seen either movie right you don't need to pick on it. But what I know

spk_0 Oscar pick at this point who needs that what I what I know is that if I make a prediction now

spk_0 and it comes to fruition then I can play back this tape and be deemed prophetic yes and if it

spk_0 doesn't come to fruition no one will remember no that's right I will say there's something there's

spk_0 something in the ether that I pick up just biosmosis that the enthusiasm around one battle after

spk_0 another is overwhelming and nothing about the marketing around the raw the new rock film

spk_0 even it's even the seeing the rock on the cover of my New York Times magazine nothing around that

spk_0 can overwhelm what feels like a sort of snowballing enthusiasm for one for one battle after another

spk_0 well I would say that there is a there is a reasonable critical view critical consensus

spk_0 that Paul Thomas Anderson is the greatest living filmmaker who's never won a direct Academy Award

spk_0 it's like his time people feel like his pta's time that's right and this movie is also not only

spk_0 an author's movie and like all of his movies he writes him he directs him and he shoots him often

spk_0 under a pseudonym this movie also is a huge budget and has action and things blowing up

spk_0 that are kind of kind of you know it's an exciting roller coaster of a movie I think you're

spk_0 right about that I think there's I think it's there's a moment that feels like it's his moment is

spk_0 coming make sure you listen to the new geese album which is right up your there's a great New York

spk_0 Times piece that says what you need to know at the difference between goose and geese you should

spk_0 read that there's there's Dylan's daughter because that's a great New York Times story there's two

spk_0 new records by two bands one called goose one called geese here's how to tell them apart says

spk_0 the New York Times if you need help with that I would read that piece but I will tell you from

spk_0 my point of view I'm not being a big fan you'll probably like goose better because you're a jam band guy

spk_0 for me I want to correct the record I'm a dead guy okay it's stop it starts and stops there right

spk_0 you're not a you're not a fish guy right no right see that's just a jank Sherman you can

spk_0 have take bring Jake Sherman on he'll talk he'll talk to you about fish that's the goose story the

spk_0 goose story is there like a basically like they're like a fish that's able to fly that's goose okay

spk_0 geese is not flying anywhere except down to the corner of avenue A and avenue A in west at east

spk_0 third street and trying to score some score some two thousand's era meet me in the bathroom

spk_0 era heroin that's the that's geese that's why we love that band Dylan Myers you're great

spk_0 that's my thank you sir well it's great to see you have a good have a good well have a good everything

spk_0 now your daughter looks like she's desperate to see us so go have some more

spk_0 all right thank you John

spk_0 in politics with john hylman is a puck podcast in partnership with audacity thanks again and as

spk_0 always to Dylan buyers for beaming in from the Hollywood Hills and bringing us his patented

spk_0 blend of wisdom insight and scuttle butt if you enjoyed this episode of in politics of john hylman

spk_0 please follow us share us radice and review us on the free audacity app or wherever you have a

spk_0 splendor of the podcast universe i am john hylman special correspondent for puck to read my stuff

spk_0 along with the reporting analysis of all my fabulous puck partners go to puck.news slash j-highel

spk_0 j-e-i-l and subscribe please speaking of my colleagues john kelly and bin landy are executive

spk_0 producers of impolitik glory blackforters are guest wrangling guru and bob tapador is our very

spk_0 own rick rubin brianina steve albeini and the bomb squad all rolled into one flawlessly producing

spk_0 editing mixing and mastering the show all by his lonesome and in no time flat from all of us to all

spk_0 of you a little mashup of a pair of late greats my mom and bob marley don't get arrested don't get

spk_0 dead and don't give up the fight

spk_0 this

Dylan Byers: Bari's New Perch & Kimmel's Curtain Call

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