$50M Poker Pro Shares His Best Advice For Founders

Interactive Transcript

spk_0 I mean, I went broke many, many times,

spk_0 but the downswings are probably the most important part

spk_0 and typically with like a breakdown.

spk_0 Things are going badly.

spk_0 That's an opportunity for a breakthrough.

spk_0 I feel like I could rule the world.

spk_0 I know I could be what I want to.

spk_0 I put my all in it like a day's all.

spk_0 For the road, let's travel in that way.

spk_0 Right, today we got Daniel Nagarano.

spk_0 He's here.

spk_0 I've been watching this guy on TV.

spk_0 Feels like half my life.

spk_0 He is a poker player who I think you've had over 50 million

spk_0 in tournament caches.

spk_0 So tournament winnings.

spk_0 You're known for your ability to read people

spk_0 for your longevity in the game for your personality

spk_0 and how you built a brand around the game of poker.

spk_0 Think you've won something like,

spk_0 is it five, six world series poker bracelets?

spk_0 Well, we're at seven, but it should be a lot more

spk_0 if I'm being honest.

spk_0 And he's humble to boot.

spk_0 So there he is, Daniel Nagarano.

spk_0 Listen, people are going to be like,

spk_0 why are you guys having a poker player on a business podcast?

spk_0 And the reason is,

spk_0 Hey, I'm selfish.

spk_0 I played poker my whole life.

spk_0 And I wanted to talk to this guy.

spk_0 That's what the podcast is.

spk_0 But B, there are so many parallels between poker and business,

spk_0 whether it's, you know, thinking about it

spk_0 in terms of investing around bankroll management, around pod odds

spk_0 and things like this, all these frameworks

spk_0 that I've used for poker in business.

spk_0 But also the people side, the human side, the reading people side

spk_0 and you were one of the best at that.

spk_0 So thanks for coming on, dude.

spk_0 Absolutely.

spk_0 You're absolutely right with your description too,

spk_0 because there's just so many things about poker.

spk_0 Poker, you know, you have to register as a small business anyway,

spk_0 right?

spk_0 You're just self-employed and, you know,

spk_0 getting out of bed to go and work is up to you.

spk_0 But you still have to, you know,

spk_0 make smart decisions, invest and look for plus EV situations.

spk_0 So Sam, I don't know if you've, if you followed poker

spk_0 like back in the day, the sort of the famous players,

spk_0 you look like like,

spk_0 I watched it on TV with Phil Ivy,

spk_0 Daniel I've seen Daniel so many times.

spk_0 And they look like, a lot of his like,

spk_0 Doyle Brunsson, they look like Cowboys, right?

spk_0 And they had these per big personalities.

spk_0 And it was like superheroes who would come to a table.

spk_0 And one guy was just like the stone cold, you can't read him.

spk_0 Another guy was the talker.

spk_0 Another guy, he just was, you know, had no fear gene in his body.

spk_0 He could just risk it all.

spk_0 And that was the sort of persona of like these charismatic,

spk_0 like personality, park, park, park, players.

spk_0 And then if you fast forward, now it's like,

spk_0 hoodie on, sunglasses on,

spk_0 scrawny kid who's doing math.

spk_0 And basically like is, is, is in many ways like it's a,

spk_0 it's a numbers game and versus like the way that

spk_0 poker used to have this sort of gunslinger mentality.

spk_0 Daniel, is that accurate?

spk_0 How I described it?

spk_0 Pretty much.

spk_0 I mean, you know, the difference between,

spk_0 and I think this is true with chess and other games too.

spk_0 The difference between like, like Bobby Fisher was asked,

spk_0 you know, he's like, well, who is the greatest chess player

spk_0 all time, right?

spk_0 And he's like, it's not fair.

spk_0 You can't make this like the players in 1905, right?

spk_0 Brilliant people.

spk_0 They didn't have access to the tools that they have now.

spk_0 So with folks, are these kids more back in my day,

spk_0 people had to figure it out on their own.

spk_0 Doyle Brunsson, before he had computers,

spk_0 he would run simulations by literally getting a deck of cards,

spk_0 a piece of paper and a pencil.

spk_0 He would take an asynet king against the pair of fours,

spk_0 run out the board and say, okay, ace king one.

spk_0 And he would do it like 100,000 times, right?

spk_0 Now, obviously, the click of a button, you know,

spk_0 you have this data available to you.

spk_0 So it was a different type of skill set and you're right.

spk_0 A lot of the more modern players are much more deliberate.

spk_0 They take a lot more time because they're actually doing,

spk_0 for the most part, they're doing calculations.

spk_0 We didn't used to do.

spk_0 It used to be like this.

spk_0 I'd look at Sam and I'm like, yeah,

spk_0 Sam's full of it.

spk_0 He doesn't have it.

spk_0 I call, right?

spk_0 That's the equation.

spk_0 However, now people are doing what's called,

spk_0 this might be a little bit above your audience's level

spk_0 of understanding, but counting combinations.

spk_0 I'm just saying, because it's very,

spk_0 even for most poker players,

spk_0 they don't understand like combinatrix, okay?

spk_0 So for example, you think your opponent has ace king.

spk_0 How many ace kings are possible, right?

spk_0 That's a difficult question for somebody

spk_0 who doesn't play poker, right?

spk_0 There's four aces and there's four kings, right?

spk_0 So that's 16.

spk_0 Okay?

spk_0 So what you're doing in your head,

spk_0 or what these people are doing is they're counting,

spk_0 not just ace king is one, but 16,

spk_0 and then using other effects to decide like, you know,

spk_0 the pot odds, what they have.

spk_0 It's like I said, it's kind of complex

spk_0 and that probably shouldn't go down that.

spk_0 It's sort of like why?

spk_0 Like I like this idea of like Bay Bruce,

spk_0 who shows up hungover and like a smoke to a sick

spk_0 and right before he goes on to like hit Evan now,

spk_0 it's just like all jack dudes who just hit her runs

spk_0 and like fell like who are technically perfect,

spk_0 but I'm like, I want the guy who ate steak and eggs

spk_0 in the morning and smokes a city ball.

spk_0 Like he's practicing.

spk_0 The more updated version of that is absolutely John daily,

spk_0 right?

spk_0 Tiger Woods was asked one time, like, why do you practice so much?

spk_0 Right?

spk_0 Like why are you up at 4 a.m.?

spk_0 He's like, if I was as talented as John daily,

spk_0 I wouldn't have to.

spk_0 Cause like, you know, really?

spk_0 Cause Tiger Woods is getting up at 5 a.m., right?

spk_0 4 a.m. to go golf and he sees John daily at the bar,

spk_0 drinking, smoking, whatever, and they tee off it like nine,

spk_0 right?

spk_0 And if you know John daily goes out there and shoot 63,

spk_0 you know, I agree with you, Sam, it's kind of romantic, frankly,

spk_0 just that old swash swash buckler who just shows up and can

spk_0 still, you know, was there a moment like that that hooked you?

spk_0 Cause, you know, I think the first poker boom that I was a part

spk_0 of was the the Chris Moneymaker thing.

spk_0 And I remember the final table with him and Sammy Farhaw and Farhaw's

spk_0 trying to, you know, this kind of experience player, Moneymaker

spk_0 was this amateur who kind of like want to want a mini tournament

spk_0 that got him a ticket to the thing.

spk_0 It was like, Willy Wonka, he got a gold ticket and he got in,

spk_0 he got all the way there.

spk_0 And I just vividly remember that was great TV.

spk_0 Was there a great TV moment or like a poker final table moment

spk_0 that for you, you were like, this is awesome.

spk_0 I want to be a part of this.

spk_0 Well, yeah, I'll answer your question.

spk_0 But first, you know, the moment you talk about,

spk_0 that's sort of a watershed moment in poker, right?

spk_0 Cause it was the first time where some amateur guy,

spk_0 who named Chris Moneymaker, like you can't make this up.

spk_0 You know, he put $40 in on an online site,

spk_0 turned it into $10,000 seat, sits there.

spk_0 And now he's against the grizzled vet, Sammy vet, you know,

spk_0 far out with the cigarette and the suit and the whole old school vibe,

spk_0 you know, he ends up winning.

spk_0 So that for me, my moment was a little further back.

spk_0 I don't know if you familiar with the movie rounders.

spk_0 Yeah, I've got love rounders.

spk_0 Rounders, great movie.

spk_0 So obviously in that movie, my statement is watching a scene

spk_0 between Johnny Chan, the master and Eric Cydell, you know,

spk_0 I go, I used to watch those tapes as a teenager.

spk_0 And I remember Phil Helm you've actually,

spk_0 who's a buddy of mine who I like to needle.

spk_0 I remember watching him as a young, you know, in his 20s.

spk_0 You know, he, he, Johnny Chan had one, two years in a row.

spk_0 And then he was heads up with Phil Helm, he's in Phil Helm,

spk_0 he's won this young kid.

spk_0 So in that, it was a little bit inspirational for me.

spk_0 I'm 16.

spk_0 I'm like, I'm going to be the next bat, you know,

spk_0 so that was a big moment for me.

spk_0 I believe that was 1989.

spk_0 Did you, by the way, Sean, let me ask the question really quick.

spk_0 Have you ever heard Daniel tell the story about Scottie Wynn?

spk_0 That's the one I was thinking of.

spk_0 Yeah, I was actually there for that.

spk_0 That was 1998 when I won my first bracelet.

spk_0 And I was just coming up on the scene.

spk_0 I was 23 years old, I believe.

spk_0 And you know, I was there for the final table.

spk_0 And Scottie Wynn was that guy, you know, he's having a mickalobe.

spk_0 That's what he drank.

spk_0 He's smoking a cigarette, you know, he's in the hand.

spk_0 He looks at the guy.

spk_0 Beautiful, Mollett.

spk_0 Beautiful Mollett.

spk_0 He's got the black and white, the chains, everything.

spk_0 You know, and then he just gives him the, you know, baby,

spk_0 you call going to be all over, baby.

spk_0 Ha, ha, ha, that's right.

spk_0 And then he drinks his beer and it was amazing psychological warfare.

spk_0 I can dig into what happened there.

spk_0 So he's up against the guy who's not a professional, right?

spk_0 Highly stressful moment, okay?

spk_0 You're playing for days, 14 hours a day, five days in a row,

spk_0 in the smoke-filled room, right?

spk_0 And this guy, Scottie, he's fighting you.

spk_0 He's a pro.

spk_0 And Scottie gives you the out.

spk_0 He says, if you, puts this little idea in his head,

spk_0 if you call, baby, it's going to be all over.

spk_0 No more pain, no more suffering.

spk_0 You get to go, right?

spk_0 So I really believe in Kevin McBride,

spk_0 and they're saying the comments, what he said,

spk_0 we call that, you know, speech play, if you will,

spk_0 that did it.

spk_0 That was what God had him to call.

spk_0 And Scottie won, you know, Scottie win was the world champion.

spk_0 That's exactly shown what Conor McGregor did to Jose Aldo.

spk_0 Yeah, yeah, exactly.

spk_0 Yeah, there's a sort of mind game to this whole thing.

spk_0 And you're famous for reading people.

spk_0 And I'm curious, you know, there's probably some natural element to it,

spk_0 but it's a practice skill you've done at a bunch.

spk_0 And an entrepreneurship in business,

spk_0 there's a big element of reading people.

spk_0 You're doing a deal with somebody, you're selling.

spk_0 It's really important to understand what's going on in the head of the other person

spk_0 and understand where they're coming from.

spk_0 And so I'm curious, like, if you're going to give us, like a mini master class

spk_0 on reading people, what comes to mind?

spk_0 What are the big, big factors?

spk_0 Okay, we're going to start from when you're born and you're a little baby

spk_0 and your mother's arms, right?

spk_0 A little baby can look at their mother and get a sense when mama is happy or sad.

spk_0 How do they do that?

spk_0 Right? That's a natural human instinct and ability.

spk_0 And we all have that.

spk_0 We all born with that.

spk_0 What happens is as we get older, we trust it less and less, right?

spk_0 How have you ever met someone within three seconds?

spk_0 There's something I don't like this guy.

spk_0 Right. You have no reason.

spk_0 There's nothing this person did, but something.

spk_0 There was a clue, something about it just felt off, right?

spk_0 When you're a poker player and you're trying to read people,

spk_0 you trust your instincts in those spots.

spk_0 I used to do no joke.

spk_0 I did this as a teenager when I started becoming professional.

spk_0 I would go to the mall.

spk_0 Okay, I would sit on a bench.

spk_0 I'd creepily, I'd wear sunglasses.

spk_0 So if you didn't think I was a weirdo.

spk_0 And I'd watch people walk by and I'd get a sense of who is this person?

spk_0 Were they picked on in high school?

spk_0 Are they confident? Are they, you know, they, you know, insecure?

spk_0 Are they depressed? Are they happy?

spk_0 You know, was this guy a football player?

spk_0 And I'd make up these stories in my head to try to get an idea.

spk_0 So when I sit at a poker table, everything, you, everything from what you're

spk_0 wearing to what you do, where you're from, that sort of is a puzzle where I'm

spk_0 a pro filing.

spk_0 I'm, you know, essentially profiling people, which we all have the commit

spk_0 to capacity to do.

spk_0 And in business, of course, it's super important, right?

spk_0 A guy comes and tells you, oh, you know, we had a great first quarter.

spk_0 It was unbelievable.

spk_0 Yeah, we broke records.

spk_0 What are you telling me all this right here?

spk_0 The way you are so blessed for probably because it's baloney.

spk_0 You know what I mean?

spk_0 Because you know, you know, so you have to like get a sense for, and often what

spk_0 you do with people is when they're lying.

spk_0 You want to like, remember what they looked like when they're lying and look for

spk_0 that pattern again.

spk_0 I'll give you a simple example with poker.

spk_0 It was in Europe, world's years, Europe.

spk_0 I played with this guy on day one and he was chewing gum.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 Well, I was watching and there was this hand where he was chewing gum, chewing gum.

spk_0 And then he, he bet all his money was all in.

spk_0 He stopped chewing, wasn't chewing his gum anymore.

spk_0 So I'm like, I really want to see this hand.

spk_0 He turned it over.

spk_0 He was bluffing.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 So I banked that in my memory.

spk_0 Now on day five, five, four days later, a big spot between me and him at

spk_0 the final table.

spk_0 He bets all his chips, right?

spk_0 He's chewing away.

spk_0 I throw the hand away.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 Later, he bets all his chips.

spk_0 He's not chewing anymore.

spk_0 I call he's bluffing.

spk_0 You know, I'm able to knock him out of the tournament.

spk_0 So absolutely the, we all have that ability.

spk_0 I think it's really observation, you know, noticing and looking for patterns

spk_0 because everyone's unique and different.

spk_0 But there are some true, there's some tried and true, you know, examples.

spk_0 Like people are not looking at you in the eye, typically like they look away

spk_0 or they look down to the right because they're uncomfortable about you looking at

spk_0 them because they're doing something that they're saying something that they

spk_0 shouldn't be saying or they're lying to you.

spk_0 Can we actually invert that?

spk_0 So let's just say that I think, you know, you've been involved in owning

spk_0 an investing in handfold companies.

spk_0 If I was trying to get you to invest in my company and I wanted to successfully

spk_0 lie to you, what would the checklist be that I would follow?

spk_0 I think certainty for sure, you know, being so, but again, this is the thing.

spk_0 The best con artists are also the best liars, right?

spk_0 So they can fill fool you, right?

spk_0 Like I'd say an overexuberance of confidence, though, is problematic.

spk_0 Like if you're just too like, oh my God, this is the greatest thing that I know.

spk_0 If you actually acknowledge, both good and bad, right?

spk_0 So you're like, listen, we're in great shape.

spk_0 However, you know, we got, we really got to work on this.

spk_0 So sort of admitting some being tumble almost like is that show some honesty?

spk_0 Like, wow, okay, well, this guy, why would he tell me this bad thing?

spk_0 You know, if the other parts are not true.

spk_0 So if you were going to lie to me about a, tell me the truth about B that's,

spk_0 doesn't look good for you.

spk_0 And now A is far more believable to.

spk_0 So I would be, I would be confident, but self deprecating a bit in admitting to flaws.

spk_0 What else would I do?

spk_0 Well, there's honesty there.

spk_0 Um, I think, you know, looking at person in the eye, um, you know, is a, is a big one.

spk_0 And I think also like, never come off as desperate.

spk_0 All right, I read a ton.

spk_0 I would say almost a book a week.

spk_0 And the reason I read so much is because my philosophy towards reading is I want to see

spk_0 what worked for the winners that I love and what strategies they use.

spk_0 And then I want to see what mistakes, uh, did they all make?

spk_0 Where were the common flaws that they all had?

spk_0 And I just want to avoid that.

spk_0 And so HubSpot asked me to put together a list of the books that have changed my life so far in 2025.

spk_0 And I did that.

spk_0 And so I listed out seven books that made a meaningful difference in my life.

spk_0 And I explained what the difference is that they had on me or what actions I took because of the book.

spk_0 And then also I listed out my very particular ways of reading because I'm pretty strategic about how I read

spk_0 and how I read so much and how I remember what I read and things like that.

spk_0 And so I put this together in a very simple guide.

spk_0 It's seven books that had a huge impact on my life.

spk_0 And you can scan the QR code below if you want to read it or there's a link.

spk_0 You guys know what to do?

spk_0 There's a link in the description.

spk_0 Just go ahead and click it and you'll see the guide that I made.

spk_0 So it's the seven books that had a massive change in my life this year.

spk_0 So far.

spk_0 And then also how I'm able to read so much.

spk_0 So check it out below.

spk_0 What's an example of not being desperate and also of being desperate?

spk_0 Yeah, I'd say okay.

spk_0 So you know, desperate people, they front load the pitch too much and ask, right?

spk_0 Like if you really want to pitch somebody, you will play the long game.

spk_0 Don't even make an ask, you know, just be like, man, I'm working on this really great project.

spk_0 It's fantastic.

spk_0 Then at the end of it, don't even ask for anything.

spk_0 Don't even say anything.

spk_0 Well, ask him, hopefully if you've, if you've pitched it well, subtly, he's going to ask you, right?

spk_0 Now, how much better is it when he says like, well, so you guys take him money for investments?

spk_0 Like, yeah, we are, but you know, we're in round one.

spk_0 It's not that we're fine.

spk_0 Like we got money, but like, you know, listen, we're always open to listen to people.

spk_0 So now you've flipped it on him, right?

spk_0 Right.

spk_0 So instead of like you selling him, he's like, oh, man, I want in on that, right?

spk_0 That's like a really solid way to, you know, get people on board with your vision, I think.

spk_0 You mentioned that when you were on your come up, you would, you'd go to the mall, you sort of practice

spk_0 just up your observational skills, like, like without distraction, actually just observe people,

spk_0 try to really like understand how they move, how they think, you know, try to build up a profile of them.

spk_0 What were the other things you did to get good, right?

spk_0 Like you don't just become who you became without doing something that was uncommon.

spk_0 If you just did the common set of actions, you would have had a common result.

spk_0 You must have done something uncommon to get you an uncommon result.

spk_0 What else did you do on your come up that that was very helpful for you?

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 On that note of observation, we'll go, I don't know if you guys remember a show called Heroes,

spk_0 many years ago, there was a character called Siler and all these people had like, you know,

spk_0 superhero type talents, right?

spk_0 And he would go in there and he'd like pull their brain out and he would now have this,

spk_0 you know, ability himself.

spk_0 So when I started out quite young, I would play with people and let's see, I'd start to notice

spk_0 the same guys are winning, right?

spk_0 So I'm like, okay, this week I'm getting inside Sam's head.

spk_0 I'm going to be like, I'm going to sit like him.

spk_0 I'm going to put my chips like him.

spk_0 I'm going to sort of try to become him for this week and understand exactly how he thinks.

spk_0 Okay, now I take all the good, I leave the bad.

spk_0 Now I move on to Sean and I'm like, okay, let's be Sean for this week.

spk_0 Let's really soak in what makes him successful.

spk_0 Why is he winning, right?

spk_0 To the idea is to create this super player where I take the best skills from all these different people,

spk_0 look at what works and what doesn't and then formulate like, you know, a game plan that way.

spk_0 So really for me, it was learning from those that are already successful.

spk_0 And that's easier to do today than it's ever been.

spk_0 Like, I'm going to be streaming later today, playing for eight hours.

spk_0 You can watch me play for eight hours and see my whole cards and hear me explain my thought process.

spk_0 Right?

spk_0 So without even risking any money at the poker table like we used to have to,

spk_0 you could just watch and learn that way.

spk_0 Then you start to think outside the box just from observation.

spk_0 So I had a friend, a group friend that we have ultimately did start talking poker.

spk_0 But early on, it wasn't like that.

spk_0 Early on, I was, I wasn't going to go up to him.

spk_0 He said, hey, would you just tell me all your strategies?

spk_0 Thanks.

spk_0 Cool.

spk_0 So I, the listeners are going to hate hearing this story again because I say 10,000 times.

spk_0 But I previously owned a media company that I sold and it was wonderful.

spk_0 And when I sold the company, I sold it via, it was during COVID.

spk_0 I sold it via Zoom.

spk_0 And so it was a lot of phone calls and it was a lot of Zoom.

spk_0 You've talked a lot about negotiating and like being able to read someone.

spk_0 But it's very physical.

spk_0 Is there a way that you could teach me how to be better to read or to understand what someone's

spk_0 thinking via Zoom or phone calls?

spk_0 Like can you hear someone's voice or just see them on a camera?

spk_0 Or do you think you have to be in real life?

spk_0 Yeah, well, obviously, you know, you can with Zoom.

spk_0 But I think, frankly, let's say, for example, when it comes to business, I think,

spk_0 and this, this is like, this would be my go-to.

spk_0 I think the best way to get reads on people is when they are relaxed.

spk_0 Okay?

spk_0 When are they relaxed?

spk_0 So not during a business call, not to Zoom.

spk_0 Everyone's buttoned up, you know, and like ready to talk.

spk_0 How about when you guys go for dinner and drinks?

spk_0 You know, just like, hey, you know, we should go, we should go check out this restaurant,

spk_0 have some drinks or whatever.

spk_0 And then talk about things unrelated to business.

spk_0 Understand who these people are, get a sense of who they are, and sort of disarm them.

spk_0 I do this in poker all the time, right?

spk_0 Where I'll give you an example what I do.

spk_0 Often, the idea is I want the person to be relaxed and I'll get more from them.

spk_0 So I'll be in a spot where my opponent, you know, they bet all their chips.

spk_0 So it's decision on me.

spk_0 Instead of looking at them, I look at the dealer and I go, why did I do this to myself?

spk_0 This is what I always do.

spk_0 And then I see him over there.

spk_0 The corner of my eye, I see him laughing, right?

spk_0 He's giggling.

spk_0 So that means he's, you know, he thinks he has the best hand, right?

spk_0 So I'm looking at the dealer and I'm saying, yeah, okay.

spk_0 What, you know, I said, what if he just has only like ace Jack?

spk_0 And then I look at his face and he goes, hey,

spk_0 shit, that is.

spk_0 And I can beat that.

spk_0 So all of a sudden, the demeanor, but the thing is is he's disarmed because I'm not looking at him, right?

spk_0 So the analogy there with businesses,

spk_0 you're stealing at that dinner meeting, at those drinks, whatever you're doing,

spk_0 you're in reading mode then.

spk_0 That is when you're going to need the best reads on who this person is and how they think.

spk_0 And there'll be especially with a little bit of alcohol,

spk_0 there'll be probably a little looser with the lips, you know, and disarmed.

spk_0 And that makes it much easier.

spk_0 It's much more difficult when everyone's very, very stiff, you know,

spk_0 to get authentic reads because it's practiced, right?

spk_0 Like, if you're taking a pitch from somebody, they've probably done this pitch before.

spk_0 So they're just sort of like going through the motions.

spk_0 And that's not authentic, that's not real.

spk_0 You need to see the real and usually that happens away from those environments.

spk_0 Is there a certain body part because you're describing this example of like poker where you say,

spk_0 what's he got, age Jack?

spk_0 And you said he stopped smiling, but it's never that, or it doesn't, to someone like me who doesn't know

spk_0 what I'm looking for, it doesn't seem that obvious.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 Well, there's a myriad of examples.

spk_0 The eyes are very, very telling often.

spk_0 Like in poker and I and otherwise, but the other one too is, and this is why, like I said,

spk_0 I like to use this as a strategy is a smile.

spk_0 If you looked at 10 smiles right now, and I showed you 10 in five, a real and five or fake,

spk_0 you'd be surprised how good you are telling which ones are fake and which ones are real, right?

spk_0 Like a fake smile is one that's kind of like this, a real smile.

spk_0 You see more up stuff up here like that.

spk_0 So that, that's a, you know, a chelto simple, like I said, everybody's unique.

spk_0 The eyes are probably the most telling body language too.

spk_0 Body language is a big one, right?

spk_0 Are they, when they're talking, are they stiff?

spk_0 Are they like this?

spk_0 Are they laid back in their chair?

spk_0 They're talking, because there's almost laid back in their chair.

spk_0 They're not really afraid of you looking at them.

spk_0 They're comfortable.

spk_0 You know, you can sense when someone's comfortable versus not.

spk_0 And like I said, there's no, everyone's unique and individual, but body posture, eyes,

spk_0 you know, smiles.

spk_0 A lot of guys are looking at pulse now.

spk_0 That's like a new thing.

spk_0 So everyone's covering their necks, of course, with scarves and things like that.

spk_0 Sean, have you guys ever heard this story?

spk_0 So in 1991, the, the election between, I think it was not

spk_0 two, the election in 92, it was between George Bush senior and it was Bill Clinton.

spk_0 And Bill Clinton, the, the reputations were entirely known.

spk_0 The reputations eventually are going to be that Bill Clinton is this charismatic,

spk_0 young guy who could like woo people.

spk_0 And then George Bush senior was known as kind of a uptight, not everyday type of guy.

spk_0 And there's this famous debate where a lot of, a lot of like political folks say,

spk_0 this is when George Bush senior lost to this up and coming guy.

spk_0 This young lady in the crowd was asking a question about a very everyday thing.

spk_0 Like I can't afford groceries.

spk_0 And while she's asking the question, George Bush senior, very subtly, he looked at his watch like

spk_0 that. Boom, it's over. And then the, the analysts go, look at, now look at Bill Clinton.

spk_0 He grabs the mic. He walks closer and he goes, what did you say your name was?

spk_0 Can you tell me about your background? What do you do for work?

spk_0 Man, it's so hard to hear what you're going through. I'm so sorry.

spk_0 And, and look, you know, a decade later, they did this test where what they did was they got rid of

spk_0 the audio of the video. And they just showed you the body language of the two people, Bush and

spk_0 Bill Clinton. And then this other test, they, oh, you could only listen to the audio.

spk_0 And what they found was the people who only watched the video and didn't hear the audio

spk_0 could predict exactly what happened to the outcome. Whereas the people who only listened to the

spk_0 audio, they couldn't exactly tell what happened. Right. And so the idea being is that body language and

spk_0 seeing with your eyes communicates significantly more than just audio. And it was this amazing

spk_0 story where it was literally just this, like you just looked at his watch like that. And that was

spk_0 the, that was the end of the election. That's what a lot of people have folks say. Have you guys ever heard

spk_0 that? I remember that too. And it makes so much sense. It's so, it's so on point, right? Because like

spk_0 the difference there is, you know, like you said, Bill Clinton got personal, the body language

spk_0 mattered. How often are you talking to somebody like today in our age? Like people have cell phones,

spk_0 right? Like you're talking to someone and they're just going, yeah. Uh-huh. Right. Do you feel

spk_0 like you're being listened to really? You know, like, oh, yeah, you know, you feel like you're being

spk_0 ignored, you feel like you're being dismissed versus somebody puts their phone down and looks and

spk_0 goes, uh-huh. And they, you know, they give you a head nod or whatever like that. Like that person

spk_0 is someone you're more likely to want to engage with or feel respected by, right? So that like what

spk_0 they described the example you gave is George Bush in that moment, people see that as that's

spk_0 disrespectful. That's the same as looking for what he bill Clinton do. Oh, that was very empathetic.

spk_0 What do you do? Where you from? You know, tell me about your story. Oh, wow. Well, like just look

spk_0 at those two different people, right? Just on that alone. Like it's such a drastic difference.

spk_0 Right. When you, uh, how did you get into poker? So what's the origin story for you? And, um,

spk_0 I'm curious if it just worked right away or you hit some rock bottoms early on and it sort of

spk_0 shifted you? Yeah. So I started as a teenager. I was a pool player. I was playing snooker in

spk_0 Canada. We play snooker. And through that, you know, I mean, make some friends out there and they

spk_0 say we're gonna go play some poker. Okay. So I don't know what that is. I get a six pack of beer

spk_0 with bring my $10 that I got. Lose that real quick drink my beer. And I'm watching for the most

spk_0 part after and they're playing these crazy wild card games, follow the queen, you know, all these

spk_0 stupid games, right? But I'm watching them. We started to do that a little more regularly. And I

spk_0 thought it was a luck, right? And then I started to like, what's going on here? How come the same

spk_0 two three guys just seem to always win? And these guys always lose. And that's what intrigued me

spk_0 because I've always been very competitive. So I actually remember buying a really bad book

spk_0 back then. And I was like, it was very elementary. And I was like, okay, well, but it helped,

spk_0 you know, because it was something to make me think about the game more sophisticated way.

spk_0 But you took me about a month or two until I started to, you know, figure things out. But through

spk_0 that, you know, my origin story, like I was building up money, but I'm a teenager and I'm reckless.

spk_0 So, you know, you got money, you lose it. The good news was I had people around me that

spk_0 started to see that like, okay, he's good at poker. He's good for it. He's an honorable guy.

spk_0 So when I would go broke and lose all my money, I could borrow money from people. Whether it was

spk_0 $500 or a thousand back then. And that, you know, I went broke many, many times, but that's part

spk_0 of the learning experience, I think. I think like the relation to business is essentially this.

spk_0 Like if you have like very little to lose, like you have a very small company or whatever,

spk_0 you could take shots, right? Because whatever, you know, you lose you. Now, once you become a big

spk_0 company, I remember I spoke at craft foods once they had me on as a corporate event. And actually,

spk_0 one of the people asked is like, what would you do with craft mac and cheese? It's been like our staple.

spk_0 And I use the poker analogy. And I said, listen, if I had a $500 bankroll, that's, that's,

spk_0 I can replicate that. Like I can get that. But once I have $2 million, I can't really risk the whole

spk_0 $2 million to go back to 500 because it's too much, right? So when I was broke, I would take shots

spk_0 like this. But once I've an established brand, if you will, once I've got the money, I wouldn't

spk_0 mess with it too much because they wanted to change the recipe and the packaging and all that.

spk_0 And I said, you know, listen, if it's working, why, why, why mess with it? You know, you're,

spk_0 there's a risk there. And I would say that when you're taking risk, you take risk when you're on

spk_0 the low end of the totem pole. That's exactly when you take, especially in your 20s, you know,

spk_0 whatever you take risk. But once you've established, you, you should be less, you should be way

spk_0 more risk averse. So I play poker for a living book when it comes to investing on stuff. I know

spk_0 nothing about it, but I'm very risk averse. I have a guy, you know, Morgan Stanley guy, municipal

spk_0 bonds. I don't even know what it is, right? But it's safe stuff. Like I don't, I don't gamble

spk_0 needlessly at this point because I've already created the dream life that I want. So what's the point?

spk_0 Right. There was a guy I was in college and I used to, I took one class in my senior year

spk_0 called getting rich. And it was probably, I was a pre-medicine. So this was like, I'd done all the

spk_0 hard physics biology, whatever. This was like my blow off class turned out to be the most valuable

spk_0 class I took my entire college career. They invited in this guy from a hedge fund or maybe his venture

spk_0 capital fund. So this VC comes in and he, he's like, okay, cool. Like, who he here wants to start a

spk_0 business someday. And so like, I would say like 75% of the kids raised their hand. Like, well,

spk_0 I like the idea. I'd like to own my own business. And he goes, awesome. Who here is going to start a

spk_0 business like your, your old graduating seniors, right? So who's going to start a business this May

spk_0 when you graduate? And the 75% of hands dropped. And there was like two or three hands left. And he

spk_0 goes, what just happened? He's like, that is, and he's started asking people, he goes, you said

spk_0 you want to start a business? Why aren't you doing it now? Like, what's coming first? Oh, I got

spk_0 this great job at, you know, McKenzie. I got this job at a bank, Goldman Sachs, wherever I got this

spk_0 internship. You know, so I'm going to do that for a few years, get some experience. And then I'm

spk_0 going to go do the business thing. And he goes, he said, you guys have it backwards. He goes, when

spk_0 you're 21 and 22 years old and you can live off of a futon and, you know, you have no, no mortgage,

spk_0 you have no kids. And you have no expectations. He's like, this is the time to just go broke

spk_0 repeatedly. He goes, you should just try so many businesses during this era. Don't wait till

spk_0 your 28 to 32 because that's when it's going to feel a lot harder and a lot more costly to go start

spk_0 that business because you're going to have a better salary. You're going to a job. You're going to

spk_0 have a reputation. You're not going to want to be a beginner in your 30s. You should be a beginner

spk_0 in your 20s. And literally that shifted the course of my life where I was like, oh, he's right. I

spk_0 told you, I'm going to go back to the last couple of times now, similar to poker, like when you have a

spk_0 small bankroll is when you want to take the most risk. And like you, because you can recover and

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spk_0 You said you started when you were in your teens and you started learning the game and you would

spk_0 go broke, but then you would borrow some money. You get back in it. What happened from there?

spk_0 We're very good. People are very good at real thinking of all the reasons why something's not

spk_0 going to work and something's going to fail. So it's very easy to be like, oh, I want to start

spk_0 this business, but I know the money, it's not good timing into this. And it's like, when I'm

spk_0 said, and everything's good, then I'll do it. And I remember I did a course years ago on sort of

spk_0 emotional intelligence. And there's this thing called B Do Have. Right? Many people think you need to

spk_0 like have everything in order to be something. Right? Where the truth is, it's like, be it. Right?

spk_0 You know, do it and you'll have it. Like just just live like you got like go for it. It's a little

spk_0 bit more like you said. As for me, like to so segue into your second question, that's kind of

spk_0 what I did. I went for it. You know, I went to Vegas. And I remember the first time I went to Vegas,

spk_0 I had like $3,000, 24 hours later. I did not. But I had three more days in Vegas with no money.

spk_0 Learning experience got kicked in the nuts, went back home to Toronto, rebuilt, kept going back. So

spk_0 it was a trial and error thing where I went from being the big fish in a small pond in Toronto

spk_0 to the top pros. You know, and I remember a very distinct moment when that happened.

spk_0 It was like four in the morning and I was playing seven handed, seven people at the table. And

spk_0 I lost my money. You know, and I went to the bathroom, washed my hands. You know, came out and

spk_0 they're all gone. And I realized in that moment, I was the sucker. They were only playing because

spk_0 of me. I was their EV. I was their expected value. And I remembered every one of their faces

spk_0 with vengeance. Right. And I said, I'm going to get you one day. One of them was a guy named Hawaiian

spk_0 Bill. You know, he'd wear those Hawaiian shirts or whatever. And hated them, you know, at the table,

spk_0 because he was playing aggressive. You know, I was like a bull. He was just, he just knew how to

spk_0 beat me. And then about a year or two later, he sort of became a little bit of a mentor of mine.

spk_0 You know, because I was like, oh, this guy knows what he's doing. He's been around the block. And

spk_0 I'm going to learn from him instead of, you know, being angry. And, uh, you know, I just eventually,

spk_0 I had persistent, I had persistence, you know, I understood that like, and I had many walks home

spk_0 from the casino to my motel where I wondered like, what am I doing? You know, I'm not in school.

spk_0 I'm not going anywhere. And this is it. So good news is I'd wake up in the morning ready to go.

spk_0 I'm like, all right, today's the day. Let's turn it around.

spk_0 There's that one of my favorite scenes is from from a movie is a poker movie. It's with Mark

spk_0 Walberg where he's talking to John Goodman. And do you guys know what scene I'm talking about?

spk_0 Where he's, uh, he basically says like, I was up two million and I lost all my money. And John

spk_0 Goodman's like, look, every idiot knows that when you're up two million, we all know what to do.

spk_0 You take one million and you buy a house and then you buy a really crappy car and you put the

spk_0 rest in savings. And that's your fortress of solitude. You can never mess that up. And then you go

spk_0 and gamble with the rest, but you never screw that one bit up. And he like tells us amazing story.

spk_0 Was there a point in your life, or at least or rather what point in your life or what age

spk_0 were you? Were you like, okay, I have a base. I have my fortress of solitude. Things feel good.

spk_0 How late into life where you are? How early into life where you before you felt some security?

spk_0 Because it sounds like your line of work. It's a lot of ups and downs. Was there ever like a, okay,

spk_0 I'm at a place of safety. The first time it happened, I was very wrong. So we'll go there and

spk_0 then I'll tell you about when it actually happened. 1999, I had a good year. I, you know, I won the

spk_0 US poker championship 10 the year. I'd like, you know, 400, 500,000. I thought, okay, well,

spk_0 you know, we're set, you know, we're good. We're never going to go broke again. Then in the year

spk_0 2000, I got complacent. I was living the Vegas life. We're going to strip joints. We're going to

spk_0 dinners. I go play poker gambling. You know, not taking it as serious as I should. And oh, wow,

spk_0 by the end of the year 2000, the money gone, right? And I was like, it was a good learning

spk_0 system. I'm glad it happened because I watched many of my peers who went through this pattern of

spk_0 building up a bankroll, blowing it all and then rebuilding it again. And part of that was they

spk_0 didn't have a foundation like actually a reason. They didn't have a why, right? So they're

spk_0 wake up in the morning. They got it. What's their goal? They got to go make money, right? Now they

spk_0 have money. Okay. Well, what's next? So subconsciously, they self sabotaged. They would self sabotage,

spk_0 lose all the money. So they had a purpose again. You know, and I remember watching my peers do that.

spk_0 And I said to myself, I'm not going to be that guy. So I started to take things more seriously

spk_0 in the early 2000s. And probably by my late 20s, early 30s, I'd say is when I finally realized

spk_0 that like I got to figure it out, I got enough money, you know, we're for sure not going broke

spk_0 anymore. Even though we're playing higher stakes, I'm much more careful than I was. But that was

spk_0 a very important year for me to fail the way that I did in the year 2000 to really just bottom out

spk_0 in a sense. And then that's a decision point. Am I going to just keep doing what they do and be

spk_0 50 or 60? I mean, I watched a guy, no joke. He built up, you know, I used to play with him in small

spk_0 games where you know, maybe he had a thousand or two thousand. He's playing the big game. He's got

spk_0 $2 million, right? And then I mean, he had two million saved or he was putting betting that game with

spk_0 $2 million with a line. He had $2 million total. Like that's what he would, you know, that's his

spk_0 bankrolls, $2 million. Now he's up there playing the big game. He's got a couple ladies with him.

spk_0 He's doing below. He's drinking whatever three days later. This guy who had two million

spk_0 front of him, he comes up. He's a, hey, man, can I get 500? Because he's back to nothing, right?

spk_0 So he wants 500 and I saw that and I was like, wow, man, you had two million and you blew all that.

spk_0 Then there's a lot of crazy stories like that. And I knew I was never going to be that guy,

spk_0 but it was a real wake up call, right? Guys I looked up to in a sense. And I'm like, what are you doing,

spk_0 man? What's the biggest, um, describe, what's the biggest amount that you sell someone have

spk_0 and it goes to zero? Well, not, I don't know the guy personally necessary, but this famous story

spk_0 was Archie Karris, who was the craft player, a little bit of a cheat and all these kind of things

spk_0 at the Bignan's horseshoe. He went there and he's winning like a million dollars a day. It

spk_0 like 45 million. He had every $5,000 chip that the Bignan's horseshoe had. He had them all in his

spk_0 safety deposit box. It 45 million lost it all and then since this for a second time,

spk_0 he was able to build up a bankroll to about 17 or 18 million and lost it all. So this is a degenerate,

spk_0 this is a degenerate, right? Like his whole life revolves around this and this is where I,

spk_0 I don't relate to people that are billionaires in a lot of ways that still are looking to make money.

spk_0 I don't get it. Like I can't relate to it. Like you have a billion dollars. Why do you care so much

spk_0 about a deal that just made you 20 million that's going to do nothing to change your life? So

spk_0 that's sort of obsession of a bigger yacht or matching up with my others. I have friends that are

spk_0 billionaires and stuff like that. And one of them actually wrote a book, Bill Perkins, because he

spk_0 does it right. You know, he wrote a book called Die With Zero, right? Which essentially he talks about

spk_0 how money is just a tool for, you know, to give you opportunities to have happiness and what is

spk_0 happiness? It's not a bigger yacht. It's not a watch. It's not a car. It's experiences, right?

spk_0 So he talks about spend your spend your mind. Think about that. Like if you think if you look back,

spk_0 like in your last 10 years of your life, you bought a watch, well, go did that give you happiness

spk_0 that was long lasting? What about the trip you took with your boys when you went on a golf and

spk_0 trip and you went to like the south of France? Like that's something that's valuable to you now.

spk_0 Like you still have those memories and, you know, a life that's worth wow. So material objects,

spk_0 material things, I think that's where frankly the opposite happens. It'll do the,

spk_0 instead of making you happy, it'll make you vehemently unhappy if that's the only source of

spk_0 happiness that you find. Yeah, it's also funny. Like if you, it's almost frustrating because it's

spk_0 like I keep going to this well, it's trying to scoop up some happiness and there's just none there.

spk_0 Right? If you keep trying the same strategy and it's not working, it's actually not just that you

spk_0 didn't get happiness, you actually get frustrated because you're getting, you're getting

spk_0 diminishing returns. Yeah, exactly. You get that and you take, but I don't do kick. I've never

spk_0 done cocaine, but the more you do it, you know, you have that little fleeting dopamine hit, but

spk_0 the more you do it, the more your body becomes a customer, it doesn't even have that same effect.

spk_0 Same thing, I think with material objects, you have six cars. Okay, now, oh, I'm going to buy

spk_0 this seventh car and this eighth car, what now? Like it's, it's, it becomes like unimportant.

spk_0 So what motivates you then? Because you're, you know, you're playing a game that's literally

spk_0 for money. It's the chips on the table. The goal is to get the chips from the other guy into your

spk_0 little pot. And so, you know, why do you do? You've made plenty of money and you know, you don't have

spk_0 to keep playing. So what is it for you? Well, that's the hook, really. That's the trick. I think the

spk_0 most, the majority of says, or of large percentage of successful people became successful doing what

spk_0 they're doing because they love what they're doing, right? Most, if you don't love what you're doing

spk_0 and you don't, your chances of being successful are very slim. So if you just say, I want to be rich

spk_0 and famous. Okay. But you want to do the work. Do you like, what do you like to do that gets you

spk_0 there? And if you're doing something because you think it's going to get you money, but you don't

spk_0 enjoy it, you don't have that passion for it. I always did. I love competing. I would love to be

spk_0 an athlete, but I'm like five, nine and like a buck six. I'm just, there's no, I'm too tall to be

spk_0 a jockey and too short to be a basketball player, right? So I didn't have any talent in that regard.

spk_0 But poker was a battle of wits, right? And I love the game. And when I started playing it, I wasn't

spk_0 playing for money. Money was a tool. I wanted to play in bigger games. I wanted to play with the best,

spk_0 right? So the only way to do that was money. So money wasn't the end goal, right? Ultimately,

spk_0 what money up provided me was, and I always asked this whenever I would coach people, like, what do

spk_0 you say? Well, what do you want? What's your dream? I want to make, I want to be rich. Okay, but

spk_0 what's for what? To do what? Like what, what are you going to use it for? Because money itself is

spk_0 just a pile of notes or a number on your screen. It doesn't do anything. What do you want it for?

spk_0 And for me, it was to provide myself the freedom to be able to do whatever I want, you know, in my

spk_0 30s, 40s and 50s. If I want to travel, if I want to relax, want to stay at home, not have to go

spk_0 to a day job and be my own boss. So that's what I looked at as far as money goes. Like the truth is,

spk_0 my bank account, if it was 10x what it is now, my life wouldn't change much at all. Like, you know,

spk_0 maybe I'd have a plane. But, but, you know, it's funny. Is it a funny hub of line between degeneracy

spk_0 and loving it? Like we could be, we could describe things very similar. For example, I'm a little

spk_0 bit of a workaholic. I love it. But then my wife or someone else would be like, well, well, you're

spk_0 just a degenerate. Like, I have a, like, you know, you're a workaholic. Yeah. Like, there's, um,

spk_0 it's kind of interesting. When you describe it in the way that you describe it, I'm like,

spk_0 Camelings, awesome. When I like think of it, I'm like, oh, you know, Larry the Greek or whatever,

spk_0 Archie the Greek, he's a, he's a degenerate. Couldn't he describe it as the same way? I loved it.

spk_0 Yeah. You know, Dol Brunson had that famous quote once. It was on a TV show where they asked

spk_0 them. He said, you know, we're all really just degenerate gamblers. We just found something we could

spk_0 beat. Right? Yeah. So he was a, you know, a lot of the old school guys, they gave him on everything,

spk_0 you know, poker players, they didn't just play poker. They'd play, you know, golf for big money,

spk_0 bet on every game, bet on everything, you know, some really famous bets from back in the day,

spk_0 some really cool ones. But they're always looking for action or easy. And a lot of it is because it

spk_0 gets their juices flowing. But I found like I said, for me, that's not the be all end all. Like,

spk_0 it doesn't do it for me. I'm not really a thrill secret in that way. Like people say, oh, you

spk_0 know, you should bungee jump or jump out of a plan. I'm like, I have zero interest in that zero.

spk_0 It's just dumb for me because it doesn't do what it does for other people. Like some people go,

spk_0 oh, my God, it was a thrill of a lifetime. Whatever. I'm like, for me, I just look at it and go,

spk_0 oh, you might die. So what's the point? You know, like if I believe that it would give me that

spk_0 thrill, you know, I would, you know, I maybe take it on. But it's, yeah, I don't, it doesn't do it for me.

spk_0 You mentioned love in the competition. Who's the best poker player you've ever sat down at the

spk_0 table with? Has there ever been anybody who sat down and you're like, wow, this guy's just

spk_0 guys better than me. Yeah, for sure. Several. One of them is my good friend who I've been friends

spk_0 with for 30 years. And he did what I didn't. I'll tell you we sort of split in terms of like our

spk_0 focus. He's the best player poker player in the world as far as I'm concerned when he counted all

spk_0 the games. And that's Phil Ivy. Okay. So Phil Ivy and I took different paths. There was a time

spk_0 where poker started to get popular on TV, you know, and there was all these opportunities. And

spk_0 that Phil didn't, he was not about that. He didn't like that. He was nose to the grind zone. I'm

spk_0 gonna sit my leather ass in this chair and I'm gonna play for 10 hours on and make all the money.

spk_0 And I had that when I was younger, but then I saw these other opportunities to be, you know,

spk_0 sort of a name in the game and potentially get some money through sponsorships or different

spk_0 business side, the business side of poker. And I was more well suited to that than he was because

spk_0 I enjoyed it, you know, when I was a very young kid, I wanted to be an actor. So being on camera,

spk_0 speaking these types of things, that was comfortable for me. So I felt like I gave a position myself

spk_0 to do quite well that way. And I did, you know, and he went a different path and, you know, did, did

spk_0 well his way. But the difference is once I start doing that, my focus is now diverted, right?

spk_0 He's focused on one thing and one thing only, just this game of poker, right? I'm playing poker,

spk_0 but I'm also doing this stuff too, right? So the intensity with which he plays at, I can't reach,

spk_0 right? Because I've got other things going on, you know, and I mean, which is fine. I don't regret it,

spk_0 you know, looking back. But, uh, yeah, I think that's part of why, you know, what made him so successful,

spk_0 he was completely consumed by poker and nothing else. So he was, he's completely intensely focused

spk_0 on it. What's his kind of like superpower? So like if yours is the ability to sort of like get

spk_0 inside the mind of the other person and read them and try to try to be able to see through the cards,

spk_0 what's his superpower? He was a very, like he was quiet. He was a quiet assassin when he played,

spk_0 but he's paying attention to everything. He sees everything, right? So he'll sit in a game for cash

spk_0 and he'll see like 15, 20 minutes in the wrong guys are winning. Okay? What does that mean the wrong

spk_0 guys are winning? Okay? Well, the wrong guys are winning means they're going to play well because

spk_0 sometimes when people are winning, they play well and when they're losing, they're going to go off

spk_0 for a big number. So sometimes you'd go down there, any place of 15, 20 minutes, see there's nothing

spk_0 here and he'd leave. He'd go home or other days, he's there for four days without, you know,

spk_0 leaving his chair because he sees that they're vulnerable, right? Often in that environment,

spk_0 it's all a bunch of sharks. So it's like all sharks, right? So every shark is circling each other and

spk_0 then see one shark is wounded. Oh, one shark lost his tail. Oh, we're going to rip this shark apart,

spk_0 right? It's a doggy dog world in that sense and he was the king of that. And it's still, you know,

spk_0 still still has that killer sign of intensity. Yeah, I would say it's just his ability to like

spk_0 dial in and have like uber focus. If you had to teach me, someone who frankly, I've never even

spk_0 been to a casino really, how to like keep calm under pressure in these high stakes games,

spk_0 you and Phil, I have you as my coach, we're going to spend like three days in a hotel before we

spk_0 go down, like preparing, not not the actual like math or the cards, you know, what would you teach me,

spk_0 what would be my checklist on how to be calm in a stressful situation? Yeah, well,

spk_0 first of all, virtually impossible. It's okay. Like in three days, Ben, because here's a thing,

spk_0 it's an emotional thing, right? I mean, I would, you know, you can do like a meditative retreat,

spk_0 a yoga retreat, learn to get Zen, you know, learn to get centered, all these types of things.

spk_0 But in three days, entering an environment you've never really experienced before,

spk_0 dealing with that sort of stress, that's a you thing, right? Ken, like we could like set you right

spk_0 with, you know, explaining like it's all part of the, you know, there's there's things you could

spk_0 probably do, but over three days, somebody that's completely new, I would say that you wouldn't be an

spk_0 easy, easy person to help in that regard, just going to have to go through it on your own. Now,

spk_0 that's different for people that have played the game for years, right? You know, I can, you know,

spk_0 get them to focus on the fundamentals of what they're doing, right? Are you making good decisions?

spk_0 Okay, let's focus on that. Okay, let's not become victims to the idea that they're like, oh man,

spk_0 I'm so unlucky that does you know good? There's no value. So being input focused, not output focus.

spk_0 Being here, focus on the journey, right? So in poker, it's not like other things where if you make

spk_0 the right decision, you make money, that's not how poker works. I can go all in with a pair of

spk_0 aces, right? And Sam could say, I'll, I have a nine and a four, I'm going to go all in. Well, that's

spk_0 a good situation for me, but sometimes I'm going to lose. But did I make a mistake? No, in the long run,

spk_0 I'm going to be okay. So for you or for anybody else, I would usually probably ask like what your

spk_0 expert life experiences with other things, right? Like so let's say you're somebody who plays the

spk_0 market. Okay, I would maybe make an analogy like, okay, so sometimes you make good investments,

spk_0 and then something completely uncontrollable happens. And you know, your investment goes to nothing.

spk_0 Doesn't make your decision bad, right? Your decision was good, right? So focus on that. Instead of like,

spk_0 woe is me, go, okay, well, or alternatively, if you lost, then it was you, you made them, you didn't

spk_0 see something. You're like, oh, I missed this. You know, that was important. Okay. So use that,

spk_0 you know, you use that mistake or that breakdown, if you will, to plug the hole, you know,

spk_0 be better prepared the next time you see it. Pokers like essentially like a big puzzle, right?

spk_0 Where you start out and just make all these mistakes. And now you start to like, go, okay, I've got

spk_0 this one figured out. And you continually plug leaks or you've seen them, these situations so

spk_0 many times you go, aha, I made this mistake before. But I'm in the same situation now, or a very

spk_0 similar one, this time I'm going to do the right thing. What are the most common leaks? Because you've

spk_0 coached people and people asked you for advice for years. One of the most common leaks that like a

spk_0 smart competent player still has that kills them. That's really hurting their, their gains. So like,

spk_0 you know, they're not at that beginner level, but they're sort of like, you know, intermediate and

spk_0 they are a smart person. They have enough talent. What leaks do they have? I'd say a pretty common

spk_0 leak for 99% of poker players or gamblers in general is when they're winning, you know, everything's

spk_0 created, whatever. They don't play as long. Okay, they'll be like, all right, I'm going to take my

spk_0 winnings. I'm going to leave. Whereas when they're losing, you know, they're there for days. I'll

spk_0 give you a perfect example. My friend Evelyn, who used to do, where my ex grow from, we go and she'd

spk_0 win like every day almost, you know, it's like, how'd you do? Well, I want 100, I want 200, I want

spk_0 300, then I look at like day nine. And it says I lost 3700. Okay. So you won nine out of 10 days,

spk_0 right? But what's the difference? You want 100, 200, 300. So over those 10 days, because of your

spk_0 mental state, when you were winning, the situation was good. And you should be pressing and pushing,

spk_0 right? That's when you like, you know, a lot of people just be like, I'm going to take my winnings.

spk_0 That's the opposite of what a fill-Ivy would do, as I was sort of described. And but when she was

spk_0 losing, she wasn't there for, I looked at the length of play the first six days, one hour, two

spk_0 hour, three hour, nothing more than a four-hour session. That one, she lost 3500. She was there for

spk_0 31 hours. Right? So the biggest leak people make is they chase losses in the short run. Right? So,

spk_0 like, I have to get even today. It's not to this game isn't today. This game doesn't end today.

spk_0 This game is all year, all, you know, all month, all year. You have to be able to say, okay, well,

spk_0 you know, because the thing is, is when you're losing, your mental state is going to be affected.

spk_0 You know, there's very few robotic minds that can play poker without having that affect them

spk_0 to some degree. So you're better off playing in situations when your mental state is good,

spk_0 you're winning versus when you're bad. Have you ever read the inner game of tennis, Daniel?

spk_0 No. We talked about it on here and what you're describing is exactly that. So it's this amazing book.

spk_0 I don't play tennis, but it's about how to play tennis, but it's one of these books where it teaches

spk_0 you about life. And the concept of the book is basically that you have two selves. Self-worn is like

spk_0 the conscious critical mind where you like judge yourself like, oh, that was a bad hit. That was a

spk_0 bad hand. Self-too is like, you don't think you feel your body. And that when you like, listen to

spk_0 your body and you don't judge yourself, that's oftentimes when hot streaks happen. So I think about,

spk_0 I don't know, Sean, I forget the phrase, but they call it in basketball where you're like,

spk_0 on a street. Yeah, yeah, you like, you can't miss. And people always say, well, don't pull them out,

spk_0 like, let them just go. And that's that moment where you're listening to self-tune. You're just

spk_0 feeling it. And what you described is exactly that. Golf too. Like, I don't know if you guys golf,

spk_0 but like when you golf, most people when they golf, they have a swing thought. Something they're

spk_0 working on, you know, like, I'll get there. Like, it's always a swing thought. But I remember the

spk_0 one time when my swing thought was this, my swing thought was nothing from nothing is nothing,

spk_0 which means nothing swing. I would literally go over the ball. I mean, my head, I'd sing this on

spk_0 nothing from nothing is nothing. You know, just let the body do it. Because when you're over

spk_0 technical over analyzing and all that kind of stuff, it can actually be a detriment. And that's

spk_0 funny. You're describing this. You're in this author saying the exact same thing that's so

spk_0 fascinating to me. And it's true in poker too. Like, you're like, you see a move and you're like,

spk_0 oh, I don't know, but I do I need to take this risk. I mean, I don't know. It seems kind of crazy.

spk_0 It might work. What might not? I mean, instead of just being like, and frankly, and this is a secret

spk_0 weapon that I don't use too often, but it really helps is alcohol. Okay. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not

spk_0 saying you should drink and play. But there was a guy named Bill Smith many years ago. They said

spk_0 when he was sober, he was the easiest weakest player in the game. When he was drunk, he was just a

spk_0 sloppy mess. He couldn't win. But when he was still a little buzz, just a little drunk, they said,

spk_0 he was the best player in the world. Right. Why would that be? Because with poker, alcohol can

spk_0 lower your inhibition a little bit. So you're just all trust rinse again. And one, I know, whatever I've

spk_0 done that, I feel like it's almost like a superpower because it allows you to sort of get past the

spk_0 fear and the rationalization for why you shouldn't take this risk. And that's all going against

spk_0 what your instincts are saying is going to work. Right. So having that little bit of, but he

spk_0 enabled learning to create that and trust that without alcohol is the ideal goal. And that's

spk_0 what we all strive for. And I've actually gotten a lot better at that just naturally just by just

spk_0 saying, okay, listen, if you think this is probably right, you know, forget about all these other

spk_0 reasons I just don't just do it, man. Just do it. I'm writing this book right now on creativity

spk_0 and getting into creative flow. And in the research, I'm looking at, I mean, in writers and authors,

spk_0 it's amazing. These guys are drunks. These guys are all drunks. And they would wake up and they

spk_0 had this discipline part, which is wake up and immediately start writing. But they're like, yeah,

spk_0 our best work was also when we added this other habit where we wake up and right before we start

spk_0 writing, we do the whiskey part or, you know, we start drinking. And, and there's another analogy

spk_0 to this, which is actually kind of an interesting thing about napping. And so there's this, there's

spk_0 a famous study that was called the Paris Sleep Study. And it's similar. Like you get in a state of

spk_0 mind where your inhibition is lower. And you're basically, you don't self censor. So we all have this

spk_0 sort of editor in our head, like in a game of tennis, like the guy that I'm sitting on the tower.

spk_0 We all have that sort of umpus calling balls in and out. And when you say something,

spk_0 you censor, if you're, if you're doing a golf swing, you start to think you start to censor what

spk_0 you're, what you're doing. And if you can get that center to just shut up and trust yourself,

spk_0 you actually do a lot better. And so they did this thing in the Paris Sleep Study. They gave people

spk_0 a very complicated pattern, like a math pattern, like a number pattern. And you know, let's say 10%

spk_0 of people solved it right away. Great. You guys are done. Congratulations. Here's some chocolate. You

spk_0 guys are out. Um, the rest of the people, they basically let them work at it for something like an hour.

spk_0 And they were all like stuck. They're like, I can't see this pattern. I don't know what the hell it is.

spk_0 So they split the group into two rooms. So like, hey, we're going to take a quick break. You know,

spk_0 sort of 20, 30 minute break. You guys go over here and hang out in the waiting room, do whatever you want.

spk_0 And they took the other group, the other half. And they put them in a, and they said, hey, we'd like

spk_0 you to go ahead and take a nap. So you're going to lay down in a common environment. You're going to

spk_0 take a nap. They took a nap for about 25, 26 minutes. And then when they woke up, they all went back

spk_0 in the room. And the group that had mapped, basically had a three times higher rate of just solving

spk_0 the problem right when they got it. And there's a state that, and there's all these great, and, you

spk_0 know, Edison used to nap and Einstein used to nap. And all these guys used to nap. And they would

spk_0 famously nap with like a spoon in their hand, because they didn't want to sleep for a long time.

spk_0 They wanted to get into that state where you just start to fall asleep. And then when you fall

spk_0 asleep, you drop the spoon, it would clang and then you'd wake up. And they would use that state,

spk_0 which is called a hypogogic state, where you're actually are way more creative. And you're in a,

spk_0 you can get into a flow much more easily than if you were just in your normal pattern.

spk_0 That's super fascinating. Yeah, that's wow. I mean, I was my first thought was that just like

spk_0 obviously sleep in general for poker is the most important thing. It's like it's like it's like

spk_0 if our mind is a computer, it's the time where it shuts down and it reboots and you know,

spk_0 downloads all the information so that you're ready to do it the next day. I remember hearing now with

spk_0 some, they did similar things where they did some tests with people where they had them, you

spk_0 know, morning, night and then sleep and then next morning and you know, next and that the results,

spk_0 the next morning were always better than, you know, the previous night or whatever. So I don't,

spk_0 I mean, I didn't know that nothing could do that or this flow state or the state idea, but that

spk_0 sounds cool because I like a, I'm a big fan of naps, you know, when you go to Europe and play,

spk_0 you know, the jet lag thing, sometimes I'd be at the table with my like a head down and I keep a hand out.

spk_0 And you know, then I could feel the dealer throw the card at my finger and I was just

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spk_0 million a year in revenue because around this point, that's when you're able to look up after

spk_0 being heads down for years building your company and you realize two things. One, you've done

spk_0 something great, but you're still a long way from your final destination and two, you look around

spk_0 and you realize, I am all alone. I've outrun my peers, which means you're now making $10 million

spk_0 decisions alone by yourself. And that is when mediocrity can creep in. My company, Hampton,

spk_0 we solved this problem by giving a room of vetted peers of other entrepreneurs who are going to hold

spk_0 you accountable, call you out on your nonsense and help show you the way. Because the fact is,

spk_0 is that there's only a tiny number of people in your town who know what you're going through and

spk_0 who have been there. And they're hard to find. The biggest risk is not failing. You have a company

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spk_0 saying, shit, I barely grew in business and in life. And for people like you who are ambitious,

spk_0 wasted potential and regret is what we want to help you to avoid. We have made so many of these

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spk_0 your life, it changed mine and I know it will change yours. So check it out, joinhampton.com.

spk_0 You mentioned it at the beginning, you said, I went to a course or a seminar about emotional

spk_0 intelligence. And that's not what I expected you to say. That sounds like, you know, I don't know.

spk_0 I thought you would talk about poker and math and stats and all that stuff. That's pretty fascinating.

spk_0 Why did you go and what did you get out of that? Yeah, it was in Vegas. I did it in 2013. My manager,

spk_0 Brian, who was just a super healthy, perfect wife, three great kids, like lawyer guy,

spk_0 you know, all buttoned up. He did it. And we were playing golf and he said, you know,

spk_0 you should try this thing. And I thought to myself, okay, well, I trust him. So he thinks it might

spk_0 have some value. I'll say, I'll go. I'm always looking to learn and do different things. It was

spk_0 nothing like I expected it to be. This was no business seminar, if you will. This was a deep dive

spk_0 into what makes you tick, where you decided certain things about yourself, you know, what works

spk_0 about you, what doesn't work about you. And it was a life changing experience in a lot of ways for me,

spk_0 right? I hated it in the first couple days, but because I had faith in Brian, I'm like, all right,

spk_0 I'm going to stick with it. It was it's transformational in so many ways. And really like, you know,

spk_0 some of the key tenants of what I learned there was just the difference between being a victim

spk_0 to circumstance and responsible completely for everything and everything. You've every,

spk_0 every where you are in all the decisions you make, right? You're not responsible for the weather.

spk_0 You're not responsible for a car crash. You know, that then, but you're responsible for your

spk_0 response to it, right? The word responsible when you break it down is essentially response able.

spk_0 So the difference between those that succeed and those that fail often, or how they respond

spk_0 to things. And there's one story I remember that they told and it's true, actually. There were two

spk_0 mothers that had the same thing happen to them. They had their child killed in a car accident,

spk_0 horrifying experience, right? The first mother was grieving, obviously, she, you know,

spk_0 expected, she, you know, she drank, she had another children, she had husband, and you know,

spk_0 she stayed in that depression six months a year later and lost her family, right? Which is sad.

spk_0 And you can look at that and you would emphasize, well, yeah, of course, right? The other mother had

spk_0 the exact same thing happen to her. She grieved, took her time, and then she started an organization

spk_0 called Mothers Against Drunk Driving. So she said, okay, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to take this.

spk_0 I'm going to respond to this in a way where I'm going to help other people, right? So the event

spk_0 was the same, right? It was a neutral event. The event was, you know, happened to both people,

spk_0 but the response to the event led these lives in a very different trajectory because of how they

spk_0 were responding to it. So learning that with poker is incredibly important, right? Because you're

spk_0 going to have bad luck sometimes. Good luck. How you respond to it is going to be the difference

spk_0 between you being successful and you being a failure. One of my biggest things that I've learned from

spk_0 Sean is I for years, I thought, well, I'm very good at that. I know that I am responsible for my own

spk_0 outcomes. I believe that fully. And one day I think I was in a bad mood and he was like, well,

spk_0 why are you in the bad mood? And I said, this person did this and it pissed me off. He's like, well,

spk_0 so you're not responsible for your mood. What's going on? Like this person just, and I, and that's when

spk_0 it clicked. And frankly, it's still really hard. But it was like this being having the internal

spk_0 locusts of control isn't just for like making money or starting a business. It's also for how do I

spk_0 feel on the inside? And that was the biggest thing. Sean, what do you say? Like you have some like

spk_0 different version of someone living rent free in your brain. Like you have all these like phrases where

spk_0 it's like the one that stuck with me. I went to a Tony Robbins thing is very similar. Like

spk_0 I kind of intuitively knew, hey, like I'm a learner. I'm a curious guy. I always want to improve.

spk_0 I would not invest in this. Then I get there and he's like, hard to understand up. I want to hear

spk_0 and I'm like, oh, God, I'm here just for the learning part. I don't need to dance, right? And then

spk_0 like five minutes in, I had a choice to fork on the road. It's like, you're either going to play

spk_0 fault full out here. You're going to like do the experience or you're going to have to do the

spk_0 experience and get half the results. I was like, whatever. Let me do this. Nobody here knows me. I

spk_0 can just let me dance. And then of course, you know, 45 minutes in, I'm dancing. I'm like, this is

spk_0 amazing. This is so good. And he says this thing in his talk. He's like, and he's like, I'm

spk_0 fucking Tony Robbins. And he's like, he tells the story of when he was on his trip with his like

spk_0 platinum, like, you've you've bought all the upsells. You're at the like, you're paying him a quarter

spk_0 million dollars here to go on vacation with him. And he was with them in India. And he meets this guy

spk_0 in the mountains, some guru guy, whatever. And the guy said, like, you know, Tony, so like, how much

spk_0 are you suffering nowadays? He's like, I'm sorry, I don't know if you know me. I'm Tony Robbins,

spk_0 you know, suffering isn't exactly how people describe me typically, right? And the guy was like,

spk_0 well, I can see like you, you know, you got upset because the guy didn't know the schedule. And

spk_0 then that. And then you got upset about this. Like these were small things. He's like, well, no,

spk_0 I wasn't upset. I just, he starts to be defensive. And then he calms down. He's like, he's like,

spk_0 what are you like, what's the, what's the observation you have here? He goes, basically, he's like,

spk_0 how cheap is your happiness? Because all it took was this guy forgetting one thing on the schedule.

spk_0 And you lost it. That was so cheap. He took him nothing to take your happiness away. And so

spk_0 this idea of like your mood is essentially you want the Louis Vuitton of moods. You want it

spk_0 to be so premium. Like for somebody to affect your mood to take your mood away from you,

spk_0 it should come with a very, very high price. And so I started a reframe like when something would

spk_0 happen, I'm like, that's too cheap. I don't, I'm not going to take that deal. Why would I ever,

spk_0 why would I ever trade my good mood for that small thing? No, I actually love that. That's

spk_0 right. Like I get annoyed by the dumbest things. I'm going to use that today because like I said,

spk_0 I do streams where sometimes I'm sick of read and you get comments, I get thousands of comments

spk_0 like while I'm streaming. And you know, the brain, I've already known this, but like we naturally

spk_0 going to gravitate toward the negative comment. The one who calls me a bald idiot or whatever. So

spk_0 I mean, so instead of like, I've learned this a long time ago, but like allowing that to affect you

spk_0 and to sort of, you know, divert the stream. It's like kind of like what they're wanting to do.

spk_0 But I've learned to just like sort of respond to positive reinforcement and good stuff

spk_0 and ignore it. But when let's say, for example, I play a hand and I lose and I'm already frustrated

spk_0 by the fact that I lost the hand, but I'm comfortable with how I played it. And then you read a bunch

spk_0 of armchair quarterbacks and go, oh, what an idiot. Just gave all his money away. That was terrible.

spk_0 You're, you're the worst. And I see that and I want to all really Sam 65934 come here and say that

spk_0 to my face. How about that? I would bust you. I'd take all your money and I do that. But it's silly,

spk_0 like you said, is why am I allowing this? Well, so does it feels good? Like I trick myself to

spk_0 think it feels good. And in reality, it doesn't feel good because I've like, check I'm refreshing

spk_0 the page. I'm like, let me see the reply. Let me see. No, I can't go out the dinner yet.

spk_0 This guy had a Facebook sense of like, I got a way for his reply. I will say this though, I am a

spk_0 big fan of venting like in the sense that like rather than hold stuff in, you know, and let it bubble

spk_0 and let it fester. I laugh at myself. Sometimes when I act like an idiot, I'm like, I get mad about

spk_0 something dumb and I'm like, okay, okay. And then I could like very quickly after I know, okay,

spk_0 that was stupid. But I got it off my chest. You know what I mean? Like I see the river card comment,

spk_0 I lose. I'm like, the hell is going on here? How did I lose this? Whatever. And I can laugh at how

spk_0 unhinged I was behaving is, but it's not going to be, you know, it's not so, but it's now not

spk_0 something that I'm just going, okay, everything's fine. Sure. Right. It's better than

spk_0 personally value and sometimes just letting it out. Sean, you had that thing in the in the five

spk_0 tweet Tuesday the other day where it was, what was the name of it? It's over the K something theory

spk_0 which states that like if you write something down, if you if you have a problem and you just

spk_0 think, yeah, Kiddlin's law was basically like, like a problem well defined. Like if you write down

spk_0 a problem, you've already half solved it. Like if you actually can write it down, inaccurate,

spk_0 accurately, what is the problem? You're already halfway to a solution at that point. Danny,

spk_0 I want to ask you about this one thing from that seminar because when I was thinking about the Tony

spk_0 Robbins experience, they'll tell you something, but it's usually like an exercise you do.

spk_0 There's some like thing you do that you wouldn't have wanted to do, but now you're sitting in the

spk_0 room and you signed up to be there and you paid the money and now you're here. So you go ahead and

spk_0 you do it and you kind of have this like moment of enlightenment that really only happened because

spk_0 you were actually immersed in it. You actually did a thing versus just listening to like an idea and

spk_0 you know, intellectually, but you didn't get to actually feel it. Did they do anything? Was there

spk_0 an exercise that stood out to you? There's tons. So yeah, the one that I did is called choice center,

spk_0 and there are plenty of people. There's a lot of crossover between Anthony Robbins himself and

spk_0 people that have done both and there, you know, there's a lot of similarities and sounds like

spk_0 and what you know what you were doing. But as far as a, you know, one specific one, I think,

spk_0 sort of the root of that whole victim responsible idea, the concept is that I remember, you know,

spk_0 there's a girl when I was she was young and she was party and whatever and we, you know, we were

spk_0 together. I was I loved her whatever, but like we broke up, okay? And I had a story about how I

spk_0 was the victim, you know, about how she did this. She did this. She was bad and all these types of

spk_0 things. So one of the exercises we did was we tell the story as a victim, okay? Now you must

spk_0 retell the exact same story where you're 100% responsible for everything that happened. Whoa, right?

spk_0 So now I have to retell it. And all of a sudden, well, she did tell me this. She did say this.

spk_0 And all of a sudden, you're I'm freed. I'm freed of this victim story that's been

spk_0 labeled to me is like, always me poor me. I'm like, no, either the signs were there. The choices

spk_0 were not, you know, the choices were there. And I'll say this after I did this course in 2013,

spk_0 this woman who I was in love with in 2010, 11, okay? She came back to Las Vegas in 2000. I even bought

spk_0 her a ring back that I never gave her in 2010, 11. And I kept it in my safe for some reason. She came

spk_0 back to Vegas in 2019. And we're married now six years. We're married. She's, yeah. So, but a lot

spk_0 of that came from me sort of reevaluating the story that I had told myself, right? So, you know,

spk_0 that was probably one of the more impactful ones. And it's like, it's a long probably it's like a

spk_0 hundred day process this course. You know, you go one weekend and you know, it's pretty intense

spk_0 another weekend and you know, you're out with an, that's pretty impressive. Yeah, you're doing coaching

spk_0 calls. You're doing all you actually learn how to coach other people and you know, you sort of

spk_0 was speaking to this about writing down stuff because that's part of it, you know, the idea behind

spk_0 journaling as well. But one of the things you know, on that note, like sometimes when I would

spk_0 coach other people, you find that like one of the questions you ask is like say you came to me

spk_0 for coaching for coaching on something. And I said, well, how would you coach yourself on this?

spk_0 Right? So then as you do that and you like, well, I would probably tell myself this, this,

spk_0 this, this, this, this, this, and then I just looking to go, there you go.

spk_0 You already know the answer, right? You know, it's just like, but a good coach, what they do is they

spk_0 help ask good questions that sort of help, you know, get you to a place where you may, I don't think

spk_0 a good coach is one that tells you what to do. A good coach is to set you up where you see, you tell me,

spk_0 you know, I'm helping you see what's possible so that you get there. I like that a lot. What, when you

spk_0 one of the things about poker is handling downswings. And I think that's not just a thing about poker.

spk_0 That's a thing about life. Now in poker, it's just very immediate and it's very quantified. I lost

spk_0 this much money just now. My buddy back in college, when I used to gamble a lot, my,

spk_0 me and my buddy Dan, we would go to Vegas and we would go lose a bunch of money. And we, you know,

spk_0 every once in a while, we'd make enough money to keep us coming back to Vegas, but most of the time,

spk_0 I would say we didn't do well. And I just remember him, the psychology of losing money is so,

spk_0 they get you to act so strange. So one thing you were talking about was like, you chased the loss,

spk_0 you know, I remember going back up to the room, he's going to the ATM machine. It's like, bro,

spk_0 don't do it. But he wants to do it. And then he would lose money. And then he would try to get the

spk_0 pit boss to like comp on a breakfast or the room to like just salvage some dignity out of it. Or he

spk_0 would come back to the room and he would use all the toiletries and wear the robe as if he was

spk_0 getting the value back out of what he just lost. And he would look in the mirror in the hotel.

spk_0 I remember he thought we were asleep. And he just goes, five iPhones. You lost five iPhones. He's

spk_0 hating himself in the mirror. And I just remember thinking like, man, we focus so much time, me and him.

spk_0 We used to focus so much time on the strategy of how to win. And what actually we needed to be spending

spk_0 time on is the psychology of how to lose because there were always going to be downswinks. And we

spk_0 handled them so poorly that our strategies went out the window. And so I'm curious today,

spk_0 you know, like, what is the strategy of handling adversity or these downswinks? What do you tell

spk_0 yourself? And what do you think is applicable to people outside of the world of poker?

spk_0 The downswinks are probably the most important part of like how you deal with them is the most

spk_0 important part of becoming a professional poker player. And for me, I learned over the years,

spk_0 you call them a breakdown, right? And typically with like a breakdown, things are going badly.

spk_0 That's an opportunity for a breakthrough. When things are going fine, right? You're probably not

spk_0 really dealing delving that much into your strategies. You're like, okay, things are good, you know?

spk_0 But when things are going badly and things are going wrong, it requires you to be more introspective.

spk_0 You have to go, okay, what is really happening here? Let me dive deep. Is there

spk_0 is what I'm doing working? You know, is my, is there anything I can do better? What strategies can I

spk_0 adjust? What strategies can I chase? And those usually come from breakdowns, whether it's in

spk_0 poker, bad downswinks or life, right? Like when you're in a downswing in your life with whatever

spk_0 else, that's an opportunity for a breakthrough. You either say, okay, this is the point where I'm at.

spk_0 Am I going to accept where I'm at? You know, and just woe is me. Or is now the time to reinvent

spk_0 myself to try a new, you know, a new angle or or try to do things differently to get myself to

spk_0 a better place? And often, you know, people call it rock bottom, right? So if you're a, you know,

spk_0 an addict or something, you know, that's getting by people look at that and say, well, this person's

spk_0 not going to be able to until they hit rock bottom. Because what's rock bottom? Rock bottom is

spk_0 the decision point. This is it, right? I mean, they're going to die here like this or, you know,

spk_0 some change has to happen. There's a quote from JK Rowling about this. Have you guys ever heard

spk_0 that her talk about rock bottom? No, it's a JK Rowling who wrote Harry Potter and, you know,

spk_0 billionaire author, right? So she said this thing about when she was, I think she had been rejected.

spk_0 And so she said, I was set free because my greatest fear had already been realized. I was still alive.

spk_0 I still had a daughter. I adored and I had an old tie brighter and a big idea. And so rock bottom

spk_0 became the solid foundation on which I rebuilt my life. That's beautiful. That's so well said. And yeah,

spk_0 essentially, it can capulates what we're sort of talking about where I think like the most impactful

spk_0 stages of your life. And like for me too, even with the like going to that course, right? It required

spk_0 to be in a place where I had that lost love, that breakup, that painful experience of, you know,

spk_0 losing someone that I loved. And I was at a low point. So I went out and said, okay, well, let's do

spk_0 something. And then boom, completely shifted my relationship with that event. And then eventually

spk_0 became the man that could look past, you know, our differences back then and realize like, I'm

spk_0 responsible for this relationship working. And now we're happily married, you know, and I constantly

spk_0 think of those things. Like it was one of those courses. And I don't know if it's similar for you

spk_0 with the Tony Robbins thing, but I still use in practice a lot of the things that I learned there

spk_0 on a daily basis. Like I'm not perfect by any stretch. I still have my bad times, but I recognize

spk_0 them more quickly when I'm being an idiot or jerk or arrogant or whatever, I notice it faster.

spk_0 You know, I'm able to shift out of it. It's like I remember thinking afterwards. I was like,

spk_0 dude, I feel like Neo in the matrix, but I thought that was like, you know, a new matrix. He's

spk_0 seeing everybody else, but it's actually just seeing yourself. It's like, you see, oh, I'm just

spk_0 acting this way because of this thing. Oh, I'm saying these words. Instead of saying I have to go

spk_0 do this, I get to go do this, right? Little shifts, right? Little like two, two words shift, right?

spk_0 Like I got to go, I have to go pick up my kids. Now I get to go pick up my kids from school right

spk_0 now on this bike. And we're going to spend time to like, this is amazing. You know, me five years

spk_0 ago, what killed for this? And now it's a now it's a half to what's going on here? And so you get

spk_0 curious about those things. So I totally, I totally agree with that. And you know, I think we came

spk_0 onto this podcast thinking like, Hey, there's going to be some poker lessons, you know, as in like,

spk_0 I can learn about, you know, poker and the art of bluffing and reading and all that, but

spk_0 you know, this turned into a podcast about the mind, right? Right. Can I ask you about your content?

spk_0 What do you read and listen to on a daily or weekly basis? Because I find your attitude

spk_0 interesting. And I want to like, I want to be inspired by the same things that inspire you.

spk_0 Well, I'll tell you, I mean, nothing recently, but one of the books that I loved, it was such a simple

spk_0 book. It's by Don Miguel Ruiz. It's four, it's called the four agreements. Yeah, I've heard a lot

spk_0 of people talk about it. It's such an easy read. You'll read it in five seconds. It's four basic

spk_0 principles. Number one, be impeccable with your word to yourself and others. Number two, you know,

spk_0 don't take anything personal. Number three, don't make assumptions. And number four, do your best.

spk_0 Don't do your best is the most important one. Because the idea behind it is those three things

spk_0 you're going to fail at sometimes, right? But as long as you're doing your best, you're in a good

spk_0 place. And the one being impeccable with your word, dad, I take so seriously, not just for others

spk_0 and for myself, to the point where if I said to you guys, I'm going to be here at 9 a.m. If I was

spk_0 here at 904, I'd feel like it's a broken agreement that I did not keep my word, right? Many people

spk_0 go through life and like they just show up at 904 and it's like, Hey, what's up guys? Don't

spk_0 acknowledge the fact that we had an agreement. You failed on this agreement and you didn't even say

spk_0 anything. Listen, sometimes it's going to happen. You're going to be five minutes late, right? What

spk_0 is a responsive person to listen? I acknowledge I'm late. I'm very sorry about that. No excuses. Don't

spk_0 tell me about your kid and the hairdryer. I'm committed to in the future, making sure that I'm on time.

spk_0 You know, that you in respect, right? But somebody who just always 15, 20 minutes late and thinks it's

spk_0 no big deal. They're disrespecting your time and I don't trust their word when they say to me,

spk_0 I'll be there at 9. I'm terrible at that. Not just the timing thing, but the keeping your word to

spk_0 yourself. I'm pretty good actually about keeping my word to other people, but keep my word to myself.

spk_0 It's like, well, I'm the judge, the jury and the executioner. So, you know, I can always let myself

spk_0 off the hook. Like I have a I have a food coach. So I'm trying to get in great shape and it, you

spk_0 know, obviously I had a personal trainer, but most of getting in great shape is controlling,

spk_0 you know, what you eat. And so she calls me every day at 1045 and she says like, hey,

spk_0 how did yesterday go? We have to talk through it's food therapy basically for 10 minutes a day

spk_0 every morning. And in that, there's all those little things where it's like, I tell her, hey,

spk_0 I'm going to do this. I'm deciding I'm going to do this. I'm going to have this at this time.

spk_0 And then tonight, I'm not going to late night snack or anything. I'm going to get to bed on time.

spk_0 Next day, you know, I did see the thing, but there was all these crackers out and I didn't even

spk_0 actually think about it, but like I was actually kind of hungry. It is all these compromises. And she

spk_0 was just like, the amount of energy you're, she like, let me kind of realize like, man, it's not

spk_0 about the crackers or the chips that you're having. Sure, that's not going to kill you. Just chips

spk_0 not going to kill you. But being the guy who breaks his word to himself all the time, like that

spk_0 actually will kill you. You will let yourself down and not even trust yourself because you don't

spk_0 believe what you say. And that has been like ironically, like what are the things that I've

spk_0 struggled the most at? And like, I'm trying to overcome this year. And if I do that, it's like, wow,

spk_0 then I do learn to play the piano better. And I do do better with my company. So I do do better

spk_0 with this because I become a type of person who I trust myself that if I say something, that's

spk_0 what it's going to be. And that I won't renegotiate and relitigate these things myself. And the problem

spk_0 is I'm a very persuasive person. I can persuade myself back into anything, but I don't want to use

spk_0 that, you know, use that skill against myself. We have a bunch of guests on the pod. Like,

spk_0 Sean and I aren't particularly like big, big investors or anything, but we love having investors on,

spk_0 like, you know, we haven't had a mom. But the most famous example of this is Warren Buffett and how

spk_0 he really can teach you about life via investing. And it's very evident that you are in that same

spk_0 category where it's not necessarily the poker thing that is the interesting part about you.

spk_0 Poker is just your vehicle for showing that you have mastery over your own emotions and your own

spk_0 and you're your master in emotional intelligence. And so it's really cool to hear your

spk_0 perspective on these things because I'm not going to play poker. But you've said of many,

spk_0 many things that will change my life just in a non poker field. Well, I appreciate you saying

spk_0 that. And like I said, I'm a big believer in sort of what you're saying is like looking at successful

spk_0 people listening to how they got there. There's value in there. This isn't me telling you this is

spk_0 what you need to do with your life. I'm sharing what's worked for me, right? And if you hear some of those

spk_0 things and you think, Oh, you know what? That would be something that we've, you know, something

spk_0 beneficial for my life. That's kind of how I look at other successful people too. We didn't get to

spk_0 talk about this, but I do in the research. This came up and I was like, that was really cool of

spk_0 him up. So it's a compliment to you, which is you were talking about the young players. And you're like,

spk_0 I never wanted to be that guy who was the old head criticizing the way all the young players are

spk_0 playing now and how the how it's ruined the game and blah, blah, blah. And you've talked about,

spk_0 you said something like, you know, I get really curious. I want to learn from them. I want them to

spk_0 coach me as much as I'm coaching them. And I thought, man, that's a great attitude. I see that in

spk_0 somebody in basketball that happens, it's sort of always criticizing the younger generation. And

spk_0 just saying like they, you know, they don't get it. They've ruined the game. That it's all changed.

spk_0 It's not the same anymore. And I thought that was a pretty cool attitude you had. And I wanted to

spk_0 give you a compliment on that. Appreciate it. I remember where it really happened when I was like 2223.

spk_0 And I was really grinding and I'm working hard. And I'm playing with some big names, you know,

spk_0 like established guys. And I could see they were scoffing at some of the stuff I was doing. And in

spk_0 my under my breath, I'm like, buddy, I'm already better than you. My, a lot. You know, you got that

spk_0 cocky young energy. And I remind you myself in that moment, never be the guy who's, you know,

spk_0 the older guy who looks at the young and the different things are doing and scoff and go,

spk_0 hey, look at these dummies. So every three to four years, I'll update my own software, my mental

spk_0 software by learning the things that they're learning. Now I combine that with the wisdom that I

spk_0 have of 30 years. And I become really powerful as a player. But it requires humility. Because let's

spk_0 say you're on the top in 2004. And you think you still are today just because you're stressed on

spk_0 your lures. No, the day you stop learning is the day everyone else starts to surpass you.

spk_0 Because they're going to continue to learn. You're stuck here. New, new ideas, new solvers,

spk_0 new approaches. They're always going to advance. And if you don't advance with them, you get worse

spk_0 by, by definition, because everyone else is getting better. That's awesome. Daniel, thanks for

spk_0 coming on, man. I really appreciate it. You got it guys. It was fun. All right. We appreciate you.

spk_0 That's it. That's the pod.

$50M Poker Pro Shares His Best Advice For Founders

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