Entertainment
Breaking Down Taylor Swift’s ‘The Life of a Showgirl’
In this episode, hosts John Caramonica and Joe Cascarale dive into Taylor Swift's latest album, 'The Life of a Showgirl,' offering an instant reaction and analysis of its themes and pro...
Breaking Down Taylor Swift’s ‘The Life of a Showgirl’
Entertainment •
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Interactive Transcript
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What does beauty have to do with winning a tennis grand slam?
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Or empowering communities, or tracking jaguars through the wild heart of South America?
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Hi there, I'm Isabella Rossellini, and I'm back with season 2 of This Is Not A Beauty Podcast,
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where I uncover stories that get to the heart of how beauty is woven through every facet of our lives.
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Listen to This Is Not A Beauty Podcast from L'Oreal Group on your favorite podcast platform.
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This is our seventh Taylor Swift album together.
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Is it? As colleagues.
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Seven as colleagues? That's wild.
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Here we are.
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You're old. And you just never stop me from using it.
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Once we're in New York Times podcast, you're everyone's so pumped on the internet.
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A music news and criticism.
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I'm John Caramonica. I'm the critic.
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I'm Joe Cascarale and I am the reporter.
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Taylor Swift's new album, The Life of a Showgirl, is out.
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It's out like literally right now.
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Now, this is as close to an emergency as podcast as we are here doing an instant reaction.
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My review is out.
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Your listening has happened.
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And we're going to get into an album that dare I say is maybe slightly different.
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I'm not going to say it's not a completely misadvertised.
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I feel like this is an album that was rolled out on New Heights.
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This is the Kelsey Brothers Podcast.
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Taylor's fiance, Travis Kelsey.
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And you're thinking, oh, it's this is a love album.
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She's engaged.
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There's the rock. The whole thing.
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It's not exactly that.
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So we're going to talk about which parts of the album seem to be on brand for that part of the rollout.
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We're also going to talk about which parts of the album are very, very clearly focused in other directions on other humans.
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At other people, not people who Taylor wishes to spend their rest of her life with.
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I did give this album a credit spec.
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I think it's in the news.
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In the news.
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We are podcast.
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We are part of the New York Times.
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You should subscribe on YouTube.
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YouTube.com slash podcast.
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Hit subscribe for more interviews, more reactions like this.
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You should also subscribe because the New York Times.
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Yes.
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Podcast is connected to the New York Times.
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It's a newspaper.
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It's a newspaper with a website.
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Yes.
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And an app.
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A news gathering organization which pays our salary.
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In the newspaper, I gave life a showgirl a credit spec.
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I will say I would not have given a credit spec to the last two Taylor albums.
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I did not review tortured poets.
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I did review midnight's.
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I think neither credit spec.
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People know where I stand on the folklore.
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Every more.
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Diad.
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The wrong place.
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You stand in the wrong place.
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I stand in the light of truth.
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That light.
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And this light.
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Both basking in it.
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To me, this feels like a comeback.
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It's made with Max Martin and Shellback.
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These are two reliable hit makers for loads and loads of pop stars.
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Sweeters super producer.
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Super producer.
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Max Martin is the modern super producer.
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This is Max Shreveyes Max Martin.
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This is Britney Spears Max Martin.
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This is Katie Perry Max Martin.
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And this is notably Taylor Swift Max Martin.
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I knew you were trouble.
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We are never ever getting back together.
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The big pop turns on red followed by 1989.
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The pure Taylor pop project which Max was helming most of.
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Little bit of Jack Antinoff in there.
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And then reputation.
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Also split between Jack and Max.
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Along with some other producers.
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And then Taylor was off in what she called her esoteric era.
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Not the esoteric era.
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I don't for personally, but it was.
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It was a centeric.
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And folklore ever more midnight's.
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Poets was a time in a place.
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She is now according to her on the new Heitz podcast.
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Taking what she learned there about storytelling.
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About varied instrumentation.
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Acoustics.
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Not only big pop synths.
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Not only country music.
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Acoustic guitar.
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But different textures.
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But specifically different lyric writing.
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Different textures.
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Yeah. Okay.
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And as she said, Max said, I love what you did there with your story telling.
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I don't want to lose that.
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Can I just tighten it up a little?
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Yeah, let me just put it in this box.
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Shout out Max because Max probably felt about folklore the way I felt about folklore.
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I didn't say it straight to Taylor's face.
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But he was like, he just felt the urge to tighten.
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Yeah.
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What Max Martin does is he tightens.
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My top line read, the first listen through this album was folklore ever more songwriting in a much cleaner package.
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And notably for a Max Martin shell back production.
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Not up at 11.
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Not that shiny.
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Not super glossy.
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I would say tight but not like super pulled back.
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Not fully botoxed.
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Tight though.
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And it's taking those lessons.
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I think Taylor is correct.
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Taking those lessons, those songwriting styles.
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And then Max and Shell back saying great.
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We know just the box for those.
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Yes. And when you say that the album was maybe misadvertised or that there was a little bit of a head fake.
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I think that's because when people heard Taylor and Max Martin together they go to shake it off.
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They go to style.
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Yes. They go to blank space.
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The big hits from 1989.
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And those songs are sparkly and huge.
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And there are some sparkly and huge songs.
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We heard wish list coming in.
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That is vintage.
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Classic Taylor and Max Martin together.
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But the Max Martin of this album is a bit subtler, a bit in Taylor's image.
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And yet I agree on my first lesson I thought, okay, she's coloring inside the lines.
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This is taught the rhymes rhyme, the sentences end where they're supposed to end.
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The storytelling is economical.
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There are details which has always been Taylor's strength.
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That actually I think she lost a little bit when she first started working with Max.
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But she had both before and after him.
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Right. A lot of details on this album.
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But everything is in its right place.
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And it sounds expensive if not totally glossy.
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You know, to me a lot of the older Max and Taylor work are kind of like the gloss inwards, the scale inwards.
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They're big songs. They call attention to the hooks.
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And what's happening maybe like line for line in the verses is less important and less meaningful.
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But these songs don't feel like that.
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These feel like written Taylor songs.
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That's why I feel like they're nodding to the folklore ever more.
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These feel like written Taylor songs than then Max and Shellback are kind of building a house around.
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And that to me is maybe the best version of their kinds of collaborations.
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I think what Taylor is saying in a way is, I don't want that hugeness.
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I don't want that she's rejecting it out of hand.
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But for this purpose, she doesn't want to go there.
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She doesn't want to have these songs maybe even run away with it.
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Like maybe she wants them that's going to have a little bit more of a controlled and contained roll.
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She's coming off of Error's tour.
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This is 20 or 21 months of stadium shows.
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149 days.
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That's such a huge number.
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Dwarfed only by the number of songs that Taylor Swift has released since the pandemic, which is now over 200.
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I thought you were saying Dwarfed only by the number of episodes pop cast has made about Taylor Swift.
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That too.
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That too.
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So we were talking to our editor Karen and Karen pointed something out, which is that we are at the end of Error's tour.
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We are at the end of Taylor's repurchasing her masters.
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We are also at the end of Taylor as sort of a single celebrity.
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This album to me felt like a capstone for maybe Taylor's young adulthood.
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And you feel that tension between what I would say the two impulses here are.
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One is looking forward and saying, I'm in love.
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We're going to live a life together.
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Maybe it'll be out of the spotlight.
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Maybe there'll be some randy things happening.
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At least at first.
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But then there's also part of the album that's like, I've got some scores to settle.
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There's just a few things I need to say.
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Like before I go run off with the before we have kids that hopefully look like you and a picket fence and all the things she's talking about on wish list.
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There's ops.
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Yeah, let me just settle these scores once and for all.
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So I want to talk about what the album is about.
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But before we move on from what it sounds like in the broadest sense, I do think you hit on something by talking about her coming off of the eras tour.
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And also this was made during the European leg of the eras tour.
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She explained she was sort of stealing off to Sweden, homeland of the Max Martin in between dates of the European leg earlier this year.
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Do you know what shellback looks like?
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I don't, which is so cool.
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Like if shellback was in the room with us right now, would you be able to know which is so cool?
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Shout out to shellback, like honestly, best life I assume.
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You're doing it right.
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Can we hang out?
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You're doing it mad Swedish.
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Yeah, shellback, if you want to come on the show, we would love to have you.
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I liked the on New Heights Taylor was talking about how when she and shellback were first working with Max together, they were both really young.
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And they both were like still learning from him.
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And now they've all sort of come back together at different stages in their lives and careers.
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So I think that's cool.
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But yes, so she's making this about the eras tour.
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And I think, and you wrote about this in your review a little bit, I do think she was taking some of the spirit of the eras tour.
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There are different eras within this album.
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There are callbacks to red.
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There are callbacks to 1989.
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There's a callback to fearless, around the friendship, which we'll get to.
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There are songs here that sound and are in dialogue with previous eras of Taylor Swift.
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Did those feel like exclamation points to you?
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Because I think on my first listen, I was like, is this chaotic?
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And on my third or fifth listen, I was like, maybe this isn't chaotic, this is in essence, oh my god, history.
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Yeah, it's an arc, much like the eras tours and arc, because I do think that show could feel chaotic when you have the spooky ever more segment.
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And then you have the ecstatic midnight segment when she's doing closing with karma.
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You know, it's like it is all over the place in that sense.
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But I feel like there's enough through line here.
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And also to be clear, she, Shell Back and Max Mariner, the only writers and producers on this album.
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So it is.
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Like George Michael.
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And the ghost of George Michael.
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So it is in father figure, which we'll talk about.
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But it is cohesive in that sense.
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And I think it is eclectic, if not chaotic.
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Yeah.
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And I do like the fact that, you know, she had sort of teased this as, I want to make an album that I'm as proud of as the eras tour.
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And for the same reasons.
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And Max said, I want to do what you did on folklore, but my way.
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And I those feel like promises fulfilled.
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And it's called if not travesting, banger, banger, banger, banger, banger, about every song.
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We know which song he was talking about now.
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But it's like, these are not the, we'll get to wood.
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We'll get to wood.
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These are not the exact kind of bangers.
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There is no shake it off here, which I think is for the best.
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But the overall thesis of this album, where are you, what are you hearing as far as is there a concept?
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And does it stem from the life of a show girl as a title and as imagery?
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So if you take the last song seriously, which is the title track, it's the duet, the Sabrina Carpenter,
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it's the only Sabrina's the only guest on this album.
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If you take that seriously as a concept, what I think is being sold here is, hey, in order to have such and such level of success,
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in order to become the true icon who is looked up to by young women, coveted by men and everybody else,
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you have to make some sacrifices, you have to apply makeup and wardrobe and then a steely outer layer.
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That's what you have to do.
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And then inside that, you are like suffering a little bit.
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And then what love allows you to do is take that off.
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Strip that down, perhaps literally, certainly metaphorically.
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And so to me, the album is about, it starts out with the stripped out and the stripped down version.
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And then it returns and says, this is what I'm escaping.
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This is what I was doing all along.
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Yes, I was putting on a show for, yes.
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So for three songs, it's like, unliberated and then for nine songs, it's like, and here's what it took to get to that point.
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I think that's right.
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To me, I've started to think of this as her cringe album.
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This is her embracing cringe.
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And there's the ballad here, the fifth track on the album, Eldest Daughter,
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which you alluded to in our intro about everyone being so punk on the internet.
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You know, the key line is, I'm not a bad bitch.
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But I'm not a bad bitch.
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And this isn't savage.
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This isn't savage.
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She's using internet speak.
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Which is not my favorite thing that she does lyrically, but I think kind of pulls it off here,
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because she's really selling it.
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But to me, it's like, you know, I tried to be all these different kinds of people.
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I tried to date moody guys.
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I tried to date artists.
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And it didn't work for me.
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And it was still me putting on a costume.
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I tried to act tough.
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You know, with reputation.
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And only this, only true love.
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And only physical intimacy, like I've never known before, has allowed me to shed that layer
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and embrace my inner cringe.
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And I hear that in the moments on this album that are like corny, proudly corny.
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I hear this in the moments on this album that sound like Broadway.
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There's some theatrical stuff, which I think plays in.
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But I think you're right that like, life of a showgirl, which maybe feels like a little bit of an afterthought
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as a title track and a closer is a sort of reveal.
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It's a credits reveal of what you were experiencing across these 12 tracks.
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Also, eldest daughter, you which you mentioned, and I didn't write this in my review,
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but it was something that was on my mind.
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It seems like a very obvious call back to the careful daughter of a careless man, you know?
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Like, and it's about what it's like to put on the show in order to survive.
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And even though she doesn't explicitly call back to that in the song,
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it did, that's to me, a signature Taylor Swift moment, it's a signature lyric.
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And it's her saying that that thing, that actually the thing that you had cheered me for,
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the thing that you had celebrated me for, that was a bit of a facade.
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That was a charade. And I'm like ready to unload, ready to cast that aside.
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You want to just go chronologically through the track list on this journey
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because I do think you talked about these first three songs that's Fato Vofelia,
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that's Elizabeth Taylor, and then that's Opalite.
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And these are the, I fell in love with Travis Kelsey songs.
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Yes.
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The album starts, do you think that there's any chance that those were recorded last?
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Why?
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That these are thematically linked.
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And I would argue that the other nine songs are thematically linked,
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even though there are sprinkles of kind of like new love, especially I like honey and blush.
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Like that, wish list.
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But is it possible?
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And I don't know what the writing process is.
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We're not always clued into what the writing process on the arc is.
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We may hear.
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Yeah.
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Even by the time this time, this time comes out, you never know.
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Yeah.
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But is there a chance that some of these songs, in the sense that there are,
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there is a reputation of like, there is a fearless of like, there is a 19,
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nine, unless she was sort of working in that direction, as the love was blooming.
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I mean, on the timeline, they were already together for quality of course,
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year plus, but then they're heading towards.
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You know, things become locked in after six months or 12 months, maybe it changed the tenor of the songwriting.
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I don't know.
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We got to look, someone's got to line up the dates.
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I do want to just take a brief detour and say, you know, we're lining this.
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We're a pro love podcast.
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Yeah, we are.
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We are a pro love podcast.
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But we're aligning this so much with Taylor's life and story.
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Like we're not really separating the art from the artist or the artist's life.
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And I think that that is something that Taylor has taught us to do.
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And I had the thought while listening to this album that she is one of the only singer songwriters,
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especially that works in a diuristic, but emotional mode, where I almost never,
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and of course, you know, we're around the same age, but I'm a straight man and she's a straight woman billionaire.
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You know, I'm a journalist like we're with very different lives.
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But I never put myself, I never think about the songs as about my own situations.
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I only think about the songs as well as about her stories.
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Which are entirely about my life.
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Every single song about my life or whoever it is, like often songs, singer songwriter,
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confessional songs are working on two levels, but because Taylor is so much the author of her own story
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and for so long and because we've been following her career so closely and tracking the way in which it aligns with real life,
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which again, she has trained her critics and her fans to do.
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Like I can only hear it through as a reality show through her eyes.
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Of course, there are artistic liberties taken.
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Of course, there are story songs that have nothing to do with it.
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But like these songs are pretty literal, you know, again, to go to Aphelia, like the first song,
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which is a little bit of like it's a little moodier than you'd expect because it's her coming out of the torture post.
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So it's her as she's saying, I was only going to focus on myself.
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You know, I thought I'd be miserable and you saved me.
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And I really like it.
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I have drowned in the melancholy.
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I swore my loyalty to me myself and I right before you lit my sky up.
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And I think she's doing a really clever thing here with the Hamlet reference, Aphelia,
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drowning a tragic, you know, a woman who's destined to be alone because the man she loves is got his own issues going on.
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I think that's what Hamlet's about.
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If I recall.
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Like Travis Kelsey, we haven't really read Hamlet.
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Yeah, last car-wise, we've got a girlfriend, so what Hamlet's about.
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Just like Travis Kelsey.
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And she's doing this sort of high-low thing where she's doing a literary reference.
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She's doing Shakespeare.
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She's talking about how moody she is.
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And then she's like, you just really, I pledge allegiance to your vibes.
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Yeah.
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Like, they're awesome.
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Your team is so cool.
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Like, I guess I root for the Kansas City Chiefs here.
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Again, she's playing this thing where she's like, I was trying to be this sad literary girl.
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But you're just, you're just the greatest.
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Hold her in half the bleachers.
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You're just the greatest golden rookie.
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Hold her in half the bleachers.
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Okay, can I ask, okay, as a sports novice, when Taylor Swift met Travis Kelsey, the Kansas City Chiefs were like having what kind of season?
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Like really good, really good.
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I think they probably went on to win the Super Bowl that year.
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Does.
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I have a timeline for that.
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Does all of this happen if the Chiefs went like seven and nine that year?
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And yes, I know there are 16 games in a football season.
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There's 17 games now.
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Seven and 10.
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Okay, if she's going seven and 10 that year, do we get this album?
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Probably not.
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Damn.
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I also love how in this song she's talking about how he called for her on his megaphone, aka, shot his shot on his podcast.
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Yes.
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On his video podcast.
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Yes.
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I think that's what his brother, again, she's sort of like dressing up these very modern things in this like antiquated, you know, almost fussy language.
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And then it's like, it's Travis Kelsey, you know, it's like, it's, it's a little bit of humor in that to me.
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And then you get like she thinks it's funny.
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I think it's funny.
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Okay.
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I think that I think she, I think they appreciate the high low mix in their relationship as evidenced by the way they, you know, when she said I made an esoteric album or two.
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And he said, it's so hot when you say big words.
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Well, you know, like that's this song in a nutshell to me.
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And then you have Elizabeth Taylor, which again is like this old Hollywood reference to a woman.
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Do me ask your question.
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Does the name Larry for tensking mean anything to you?
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Tell the people.
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Do you know?
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No.
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So Elizabeth Taylor is married many times.
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Yes.
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Famously.
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And one of the short lived marriages like in the kind of like entertainment and I know yes, yes.
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Yeah.
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Like for tensky, like sort of like blue collar or groups.
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I'm kind before my time.
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The original Kevin Federal line.
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I mean, on it like makes Kevin Federal lines.
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He's like Al Pacino.
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You know, like Richard Bertensky.
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Richard Bertensky.
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Yeah.
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Anyway, no for tensky.
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Yeah.
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No for tensky.
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But it's this song again sort of wrapping the Travis and Taylor love story in old in old Hollywood
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reference as opposed to a Shakespeare reference.
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Yep.
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Do you like his first two songs?
spk_0
Yeah, I do.
spk_0
I like Elizabeth Taylor more.
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It does have a little bit of that.
spk_0
What's the song where she talks about the Kennes?
spk_0
Starlight from Red talking about Bobby and Ethel's relationship.
spk_0
Right.
spk_0
It's a little bit of that.
spk_0
And I don't love that particular mode of Taylor.
spk_0
That song was one of the first where Taylor sort of like externalizes her internal narrative.
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It's like, it's not me.
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It's a character.
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I'm linking myself to like great love narratives and great romance, etc.
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And it always felt kind of like a little try hard to me in the abstract.
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Maybe I've been softened to it over the years because I didn't have that immediate reaction
spk_0
to this song as I did back then to the Kennedy comparisons.
spk_0
Also, I think Taylor's doing it.
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You talk about sense of humor.
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This is funny.
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Yeah, she's like Taylor being funny.
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Of course, I was a bit Taylor.
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Yeah, like I'm lucky and love.
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And also it's how you guys have been writing about me for at this point 15 years.
spk_0
So I'm just going to lean in.
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I'm going to own it.
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And actually I came out on top.
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Yeah.
spk_0
And this is a trick she's also on folklore with great American dynasty where she's using
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a historical narrative that she's obviously like obsessed with in a, you know, I'm hoarding
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nonfiction or reading a lot of videos.
spk_0
spk_0
And then I bought this house and like it's actually me.
spk_0
But yeah, it seems like Taylor and Travis spent some time in Italy.
spk_0
You know, she's calling out hotels.
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This was a, you know, I guess there's a hotel that Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor
spk_0
went to together.
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You know, all of that is here.
spk_0
But these feel like a false start to me and they feel like, okay, I have to do the thesis
spk_0
statement of the album, which is that, you know, my football star boyfriend saved me
spk_0
from being depressed.
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Totally.
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Yes, it's from being depressed.
spk_0
And from dating artsy boys, you know who you are.
spk_0
Both of you.
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All of you.
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But to me, things really open up with Opa.
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I mean, Opa light is like a very obvious Taylor hit.
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It is the song that I have found stuck in my head the most often, kind of against my
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will.
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I wouldn't say it's my favorite song on this album, but it is incredibly catchy.
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It kind of reminds me, it's like these kind of broad Taylor concept, like enchanted or
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something which I don't like.
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But there's something incredibly effective about the structure of this song really, really
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stuck with me.
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And it's in the series of Taylor color songs, whether it's red or maroon from midnight
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or you know, she's, she's plays, she loves to play with color color, you know, closely
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linked with her various eras and the sky going from dark to opalite again is the same
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as in the previous two songs of her, her being freed.
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But to me, this is like the platonic ideal of Max and Taylor together.
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The chorus into the bridge into the final chorus with the sort of white soul, like a little
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bit of.
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I mean, girl group.
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To me, I have some serious girl group energy, you know, a little bit as Karen, shout
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out to Karen Gans again, our editor said, oh, it's like paper rings, which is a Jack
spk_0
Antennaf song.
spk_0
There's a little bit of that of that girl group energy, but it's like really, really, really
spk_0
Max Martin.
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You didn't think it was Fleetwood Mac?
spk_0
I could see it.
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Sure.
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Yeah, it's like, but it's also like it's, you know, it's, you know, the Fleetwood
spk_0
Mac song thunder only happens when it's rain.
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Yeah.
spk_0
You know, it's like, I see that.
spk_0
It definitely, but it's like the candy shop sort of like sweetness, 60s, like, but
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updated.
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And I think that that's something that like shake it off, tries to do, but is a little
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clawing in my opinion.
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And this stays like just on the right side of clawing for me.
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And I agree just like really, really, really stuck in my head.
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So three songs about the relationship.
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One, you're sort of writing off as like narrative transition.
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One is hyper theatrical and stylized.
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And this is the pure plot explosion.
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That's how I feel watching us into this album.
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Yeah.
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I mean, to me, I'm probably more sympathetic to Elizabeth Taylor than you, but I do agree
spk_0
that Opalite is the awakening on this album.
spk_0
To me, Elizabeth Taylor like walks up to it, you know, really positive way.
spk_0
The Fatal Mofelia feels like it's a difference between a song that's written and a song
spk_0
that's like expressed.
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There's something written about the Fatal Mofelia.
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Because of the quite unwieldy literary reference, you know.
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And I do think it's a little bit of a classic Taylor mistake that Fatal Mofelia is for
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the first single and the opening track.
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Like this is the song that got a music video right out of the gate.
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This is a song, you know, they're going to play the video in movie theaters beginning
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today.
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Like, that's like, it feels off to me because I think there's four or six better singles
spk_0
on this album.
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Yes.
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Potentially.
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And I think, you know, the people will decide ultimately the swifties will decide which
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of these become we include ourselves.
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We get a vote.
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We get a vote.
spk_0
Which of these songs becomes the smash, but like to me, you could have just as easily
spk_0
pushed up a light before you push Ophelia.
spk_0
And then you get to this stretch, strikes for it before that we just shout out Austin
spk_0
Swift real fast.
spk_0
You want to talk about the line?
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I had a bad habit of missing lovers past.
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My brother used to call it eating out of the trash.
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Wish Austin was there for me 10 years ago.
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I also, my brain immediately went to Austin throwing his Yeezy's in the trash at peak
spk_0
Taylor Kanye beef.
spk_0
spk_0
Should have sold those.
spk_0
spk_0
You should have the trash.
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Should have sold those.
spk_0
So yeah, Austin, two times, made popping up as big cameos and Taylor's career, both
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times involving the trash.
spk_0
Great, great language, though.
spk_0
Totally.
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Hey, hold up.
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This is your minute.
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It's your minute in this life on this day.
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It's your day to play, to play, to make, to move, to move through, to explore.
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It's your morning to share your weekend in shape, to cook, to soak, to listen, to wait.
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It's your body to rest, to nourish, to grow.
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It's your mind, you know.
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It's your place, your country, your life, to love, to rise, to dream, to change.
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It's your world as much as anyone's.
spk_0
It's your world to understand.
spk_0
The New York Times.
spk_0
Find out more at nytimes.com slash your world.
spk_0
But then you get this stretch from four, track four, to track nine, which to me is just
spk_0
like wall to wall, Taylor doing what Taylor does.
spk_0
Conceptual, like they're not bangers, but they're conceptual bangers.
spk_0
Yes.
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And each one functions in a slightly different way.
spk_0
Let's talk about father figure, which despite the George Michael reference, a very light
spk_0
interpretation.
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So it's like to me, it's in the rhythm of the singing.
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Only in those two words though.
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Kind of in the phrase right around it, just a touch.
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Like to me, it's very faint.
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This is like giving right-side Fred credit for a look what you made me do.
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This is preemptive litigation, defends the songwriting credit by lawyer.
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Which we'll get to, she did it here, but not in another case, which I thought is very
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strange, even more obvious, except for the fact that she's sharing a song title here
spk_0
with a George Michael classic.
spk_0
Yes, but by the time this comes out, those credits might have changed too.
spk_0
The ones we're going to talk about.
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Father figure, early standout for me.
spk_0
Really?
spk_0
I find this song to be extremely unique in her catalog, sonically, and a way, way, way,
spk_0
way smarter and subtler version of the man, lyrically.
spk_0
Yep.
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This is a song about mentorship or advertised mentorship.
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That's a promised mentorship.
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I'll be your father figure.
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We're going to make it huge together.
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I'll be your father figure.
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I drink the brown figure.
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I can make deals with them because my digs bigger.
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We're going to drink brown liquor together because my digs bigger, she says.
spk_0
And then it has this classic Taylor turn where, and somehow, like, not sexual, like that at all.
spk_0
It's that's worth noting.
spk_0
Yes.
spk_0
Because it is about a power imbalance, but it's not about a sexualized power imbalance.
spk_0
At least it does not appear that way.
spk_0
And the George Michael song seems to be about a sexualized power balance, I think.
spk_0
Shout out to the use of the other father figure and baby girl.
spk_0
When Harris Dickinson is dancing to it for Nicole Kidman, one of the great movie scenes
spk_0
of In recent history.
spk_0
I'm noticing from your face, you haven't seen Baby Girl.
spk_0
Watch Baby Girl speaking of power and balances.
spk_0
So no, okay movie.
spk_0
But no, and then she gets to the bridge.
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She's been singing, crucially, she's been singing I the whole time.
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Yes.
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Not you.
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She's singing as she's inhabiting the character.
spk_0
She's inhabiting the character, the villain.
spk_0
And then she says, no, no, no, I'm your daddy.
spk_0
I have the big dick.
spk_0
And to me, there's no, the interpretation of this song is it's about her masters, right?
spk_0
It seems to be it's a Scott Borchetta song.
spk_0
It's a Scott Borchetta song.
spk_0
Maybe it's a scooter wrong song.
spk_0
It's saying all you men who said you were going to make my career like I made your career.
spk_0
Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a mafia song.
spk_0
Yeah, it says you'll be sleeping with the fish.
spk_0
Yes, it's like before you even know your drown.
spk_0
It's a, you thought you whacked me and then I took you out to the parking garage and I
spk_0
whacked you and I buried you under the cement.
spk_0
Like that's really what it is.
spk_0
It's, it's kind of a violent song in that way.
spk_0
There's a lot of anger in the song.
spk_0
But I think that it is conveyed beautifully.
spk_0
Like in the, in the melody and I think it's like, you know, it's an overused word, but
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I do think and not all the songs on the album sound like this.
spk_0
But I do think it's like a very mature sound for her, which is not something that she's
spk_0
always interested in doing.
spk_0
Yeah, especially on this album, which I think has these deliberate callbacks to, I mean,
spk_0
this affectionately, whineer versions of her past.
spk_0
This is like a fully grown, like I have taken the measure of my enemy and I have vanquished
spk_0
him.
spk_0
This is probably the most mature song on the album.
spk_0
I think even more mature, actually obviously more mature than the love and lust songs.
spk_0
Right, which are quite juvenile, proudly, I think.
spk_0
We talked a little bit about eldest daughter, the fifth check on this album.
spk_0
That's the ballad about how cringe she is and how she's down to be cringe.
spk_0
Now that she's been freed from love, like anything else you wanted to say about this
spk_0
on, I feel like you like this song more than I do.
spk_0
Yeah, I like the thing that I don't like about this song is I feel like the first verse
spk_0
and the second verse don't really go hand in hand.
spk_0
The second verse feels really retrospective and personal.
spk_0
And the first verse is kind of this abstract philosophical thing about what the internet
spk_0
is like.
spk_0
Twitter and comments and like what it's like to be a person who is surveilled and scrutinized
spk_0
online.
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They don't totally feel like they go hand in hand.
spk_0
But I do basically like it because I do like her kind of being like, I'm not a bad bit,
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like I'm not.
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Like I spent actually quite a bit of time in the mid to late 2010s trying to convince
spk_0
you and convince myself that I am in fact a bad bitch, but I'm just simply not.
spk_0
I'm not sure that anyone was really buying it.
spk_0
I made for some great music, whether or not you bought it.
spk_0
But like to me, the sort of funny thing about reputation is to me, it's obviously a great
spk_0
album.
spk_0
It's probably my favorite Taylor album.
spk_0
It was when we did our Taylor round.
spk_0
Go watch that video.
spk_0
Go watch that video.
spk_0
But is it credible?
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I'm not even sure.
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But obviously not all great art has to be credible art.
spk_0
You can make like fantastical art.
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That's excellent.
spk_0
And there's some camp in her bad bitch.
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Course image.
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Yes.
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And there's also some camp in her.
spk_0
I'm not a bad bitch confession.
spk_0
But I like this.
spk_0
I like this kind of like it's almost like the.
spk_0
Right.
spk_0
The exhale of feeling comfortable in your shoulders down.
spk_0
spk_0
Back relaxed, slaunching a little bit.
spk_0
Be like, I'm not a bad bitch.
spk_0
Like I just do I have to keep doing that?
spk_0
I give up.
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I don't have to keep doing it anymore.
spk_0
Like no, no one, whether you believe that or not.
spk_0
Which I feel like is a sentiment that she's tried to express over and over again since
spk_0
reputation.
spk_0
Like I'm not going to do that anymore.
spk_0
But like maybe she didn't even fully believe it.
spk_0
And this time I guess it feels more believable.
spk_0
You in your review and your written review called out the singing on the song.
spk_0
Like you think her vocals.
spk_0
What do you think of her vocals across the album?
spk_0
I think they're pretty good.
spk_0
I think they're strong.
spk_0
I think in this middle section that we're talking about, those are the strongest things,
spk_0
the strongest references that she's doing.
spk_0
Like Taylor is not an A plus vocal powerhouse.
spk_0
It's never really been her thing.
spk_0
But I feel the conviction in father figure, I feel it in eldest daughter.
spk_0
I think she's learned how to weaponize that kind of middle range that she has.
spk_0
She's not going to beat you over the head with a strong vocal.
spk_0
But I think she's very, very present in that middle range.
spk_0
And so to me, the singing here is very effective.
spk_0
And even when she's doing the kind of coi stuff earlier in the album, she knows how to
spk_0
play the saccharine quality as well.
spk_0
But she's never going to dominate you with that.
spk_0
Yeah, although I was very impressed, I'd say, by the sort of outro of father figure
spk_0
when there's a key change in she's singing falsetto.
spk_0
And I thought that was like, that was a speaking of conviction.
spk_0
Like I think that she really went there vocally.
spk_0
But yeah, then we get to this fearless song.
spk_0
Ruined the friendship.
spk_0
Real fearless ass song.
spk_0
This is vintage Taylor.
spk_0
Like, this is old Taylor.
spk_0
Why is this song here?
spk_0
Like, if you set aside the idea that there's a micro-errorist who are happening within the
spk_0
context of this album, which I think I've made up, maybe it's something that Taylor
spk_0
was trying to do, maybe it's something Taylor and Matt sat down and said, I want one of
spk_0
these, one of these, one of these, I don't know.
spk_0
We can't know.
spk_0
Or at least we don't know right now until Taylor comes and sent here.
spk_0
But why is this song here?
spk_0
Because even if they're trying to do that, it's one thing to go, this is how I felt three
spk_0
years ago.
spk_0
It's another thing to go, this is how I felt seven years ago.
spk_0
It's an entirely different thing to go, this is how I felt 20 years ago.
spk_0
What's this song doing?
spk_0
I have two answers.
spk_0
One I think is literal and one is thematic.
spk_0
Okay.
spk_0
I think this song tells the story of a missed connection with somebody when they were young,
spk_0
seemingly, you know, in Tennessee.
spk_0
She's talking about a lakeside beach.
spk_0
They have one of those in Tennessee.
spk_0
Abigail has been in the song.
spk_0
Her long-time best friend from childhood of 15 fame, one of the great Taylor characters
spk_0
in that song.
spk_0
But I think this, and then it seems that the subject of the song passed away unexpectedly.
spk_0
She potentially talks about...
spk_0
Tenshally a suicide.
spk_0
Or an accident says we'll never know why.
spk_0
We'll never know why.
spk_0
She talks about how it was inconvenient for her to go visit his grave.
spk_0
To me, that seems like maybe it's something that happened during the Ares tour.
spk_0
And it moved her such that she felt like I have to go see this through.
spk_0
That sort of leads me to the thematic explanation, which I think is like,
spk_0
it's a closing of the loop.
spk_0
It's like when you are finally thinking that you found your forever person and...
spk_0
Sort of like sand they bring down all or closing up.
spk_0
spk_0
And I think that if this is...
spk_0
That's the open thread.
spk_0
I know.
spk_0
Not very...
spk_0
Not maddy.
spk_0
Maybe those are open threads.
spk_0
Maybe many, many, many open threads.
spk_0
But I think there is something that...
spk_0
With a final love makes you think about...
spk_0
Taylor Lautner.
spk_0
What could have been...
spk_0
And this is a very much like a...
spk_0
What could have been song.
spk_0
It's like, I didn't want to kiss you.
spk_0
Maybe you had a girlfriend.
spk_0
Maybe I didn't want to ruin the friendship.
spk_0
But I should have just done it.
spk_0
Like we were young.
spk_0
We were having a time.
spk_0
We shared a moment, even if only a moment.
spk_0
And Taylor loves writing songs about only a moment.
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Yes.
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Missed connections.
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Again, you mentioned.
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Chanted.
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That's one of those.
spk_0
Various others.
spk_0
Put them in the comments.
spk_0
But I think that that's here.
spk_0
So I think there is something about...
spk_0
Finally feeling like you're grown up.
spk_0
That makes you want to reflect once more
spk_0
on formative moments in your use.
spk_0
You read it as the death in the song happened during your story.
spk_0
That's a guess just because she says it wasn't convenient for me to go
spk_0
and visit your grave.
spk_0
Okay.
spk_0
That's total guess.
spk_0
Not trying to, you know, again, we're talking about some of these songs
spk_0
literally because she has let us down that path.
spk_0
But I don't know that to be the case.
spk_0
It's just how I interpreted the lyrics.
spk_0
spk_0
I'm open to that.
spk_0
Ruined the friendship.
spk_0
Now you want to get into the real song.
spk_0
I mean, now that's why I feel like everything we've done
spk_0
has sort of been warm up for this.
spk_0
Even more so than talking about wood.
spk_0
Yes.
spk_0
What is the...
spk_0
What is the Danuma?
spk_0
This is the climax.
spk_0
Let's just play a little bit of actually romantic.
spk_0
I didn't realize pop stars did Coke.
spk_0
That's true.
spk_0
Unbelievable.
spk_0
Stand the last.
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Yeah.
spk_0
Taylor's going for the jugular here.
spk_0
Is it better than revenge?
spk_0
Is it better than better than revenge?
spk_0
Is it meaner than better than revenge?
spk_0
You can write off better than revenge.
spk_0
You can write that off as petulence.
spk_0
Sour grapes.
spk_0
Yeah. You can write it off as childish.
spk_0
This is not...
spk_0
This is as considered as father figure.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
You know what I mean?
spk_0
This is as savage as that.
spk_0
I think it's almost as if she started the album writing process
spk_0
with a list of enemies and said I got to have one for each of these people.
spk_0
Now the Philadelphia Eagles, enemy number one.
spk_0
Which is the song about the Philadelphia Eagles.
spk_0
That's going to be a whole album.
spk_0
Sorry.
spk_0
Who's this about?
spk_0
We've been debating.
spk_0
We have been debating.
spk_0
This is popular.
spk_0
The popular read.
spk_0
I have an unpopular read.
spk_0
I feel the need to caveat, which is like it doesn't matter.
spk_0
That matters.
spk_0
We're talking about.
spk_0
But obviously matters.
spk_0
But this is the person who in their old lyric books
spk_0
used to capitalize letters in the lyrics to tell you who the song was about.
spk_0
Yes.
spk_0
Do we have the lyric book?
spk_0
It's on the internet.
spk_0
Is it?
spk_0
I don't have it in my possession.
spk_0
Okay. What is it?
spk_0
It's just...
spk_0
She doesn't do the capital letters thing.
spk_0
I thought you were going to say it on the back of the day.
spk_0
Yeah, no, I thought you were saying she did it on this one.
spk_0
The internet has decided this song is about Charlie XCX.
spk_0
Charlie XCX had a song on that.
spk_0
Charlie XX had a song on her last album.
spk_0
So I've been told, called Sympathy as a Knife,
spk_0
from Brad about how Taylor Swift made her feel bad about herself.
spk_0
Don't want to see a break teacher, my boyfriend shot.
spk_0
Things just cause behind my back up,
spk_0
Oh, they break off quick as I.
spk_0
Quick backstory.
spk_0
Charlie just married one of the guys from the 1975.
spk_0
Taylor.
spk_0
Not the guy who Taylor Swift made it.
spk_0
Taylor Swift made it.
spk_0
Taylor Swift made it.
spk_0
Healy from the 1975.
spk_0
She says in the song basically like,
spk_0
I hope you guys break up soon because I don't want to see you
spk_0
because you make me feel bad about myself because I could never be you.
spk_0
Sympathy is a Knife, not a mean song.
spk_0
No.
spk_0
You know, for all the insecure song.
spk_0
Yeah, for all the sort of like dragging that maybe we've done of Charlie
spk_0
on pop cast over the years.
spk_0
I don't find that to be maybe one of the better songs in her catalog.
spk_0
Like to me, it's a thoughtful song.
spk_0
It's a song for a person who always puts forth this kind of like.
spk_0
Something like a thoughtful song.
spk_0
Well, okay, but for a person who always puts forth this kind of like bold,
spk_0
fearless, like I'm out here, I'm stomping, I'm just taking in indulging hedonism of like
spk_0
to take this moment and say, and all these people around me make me feel insecure.
spk_0
I think that's what people like about Brad is that sort of brashness cut with the girl
spk_0
so confusing Sympathy is a nice stuff.
spk_0
Is that what people like about Brad beats me?
spk_0
Can I just say no actually romantic?
spk_0
No, I think you might agree with that.
spk_0
Yeah, yeah.
spk_0
I don't want to fight, but if we're in the spirit of fighting, like actually romantic is
spk_0
better than anything on Brad put together.
spk_0
Yeah, who you're going to fight with?
spk_0
No one in this room.
spk_0
I'm just like this song is so potent.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
Maybe it's not about Charlie XCX.
spk_0
Yes.
spk_0
Apologies for dragging Brad if it's not about Charlie XCX.
spk_0
So, okay.
spk_0
If you are to be purely like have pure fealty to lyrics,
spk_0
I can see where this goes in the Charlie direction.
spk_0
She called me boring Barbie when the cook made her brave.
spk_0
Yeah, like that.
spk_0
I don't believe I had to get it.
spk_0
Allegedly.
spk_0
Like it's not like Zaryl Arson.
spk_0
Like it's not like Rita Ora.
spk_0
You're really drag your dad to be the reason.
spk_0
You're really drag it to people into this that you know.
spk_0
And people it's not.
spk_0
To be clear, we do know it's about a songwriter because she says
spk_0
you wrote a song about how seeing me makes you sick.
spk_0
That's not exactly.
spk_0
That's an ungenerous read of Sympathy as an X.
spk_0
spk_0
I don't know if there are other Charlie songs allegedly about Taylor.
spk_0
I don't think so.
spk_0
Not to my knowledge.
spk_0
I listen to the guitars on this song.
spk_0
Okay.
spk_0
At the chorus and especially in the closing 15 or 20 seconds.
spk_0
I listen to the goes guitars and I can only hear one thing.
spk_0
And that is the oove of Olivia Rodrigo.
spk_0
Two albums of Olivia Rodrigo.
spk_0
That is an oove in modern times.
spk_0
That is a modern oove.
spk_0
Olivia Rodrigo is having two albums.
spk_0
She's just very young.
spk_0
Well, you stop pushing back.
spk_0
It's an oove for Christ's eggs.
spk_0
It's an oove.
spk_0
When I hear that, I think about Olivia Rodrigo
spk_0
as the lost daughter of Taylor Swift.
spk_0
And whatever struggle they had about songwriting credit on the first Olivia album.
spk_0
Olivia clearly coming into the game, spiritually indebted to Taylor.
spk_0
A fan of.
spk_0
spk_0
Yes, said as much.
spk_0
And also had a couple of songs that very specifically call back to earlier Taylor Swift songs.
spk_0
There was some tension about credits.
spk_0
I don't know if someone didn't send flowers to the other person on the right day or if some
spk_0
lawyer said something.
spk_0
Didn't tweet my album.
spk_0
Yeah, you literally didn't tweet my album.
spk_0
Like someone didn't send someone's lawyer said something a little too aggressively to the other
spk_0
person's lawyer.
spk_0
I don't know why.
spk_0
I don't know what happened.
spk_0
But Taylor chose Sabrina Carpenter.
spk_0
Ultimately Taylor chose Sabrina Carpenter.
spk_0
And not to pit women against each other.
spk_0
I would never do that.
spk_0
But ultimately Taylor did not choose Olivia.
spk_0
Or Olivia did not choose Taylor or, or, you know,
spk_0
but there's a universe where Olivia is doing like 20 dates on ares tour.
spk_0
That didn't happen.
spk_0
That did not happen.
spk_0
And so I hear those guitars.
spk_0
And, you know, I wrote recently about Dear John and Taylor sort of like adopting a mode.
spk_0
Our favorite disc track.
spk_0
Our favorite disc track of all time.
spk_0
Taylor adopting a mode of anatomy in order to take them down.
spk_0
Did this with Maddie Healy in the 1975 also on poets.
spk_0
I heard those guitars and I said, huh.
spk_0
I feel like I know who that's aimed at.
spk_0
Now look, the internet is disagreeing with me.
spk_0
I'm open to being wrong.
spk_0
It's possible to composite and possible theory of mine.
spk_0
I think it's possible to be first, first about one person, second,
spk_0
verse about another person.
spk_0
There's the thing about it.
spk_0
And just be like, don't step to me.
spk_0
Like I hear you.
spk_0
All of you singers.
spk_0
All of you singers who are jealous of my ares tour and my billions and my, you know,
spk_0
Oof, like a like a toy Chihuahua barking at me from a tiny purse.
spk_0
That's how much it hurts.
spk_0
It could be about anyone who's ever talked to about Taylor.
spk_0
That letter didn't party just tweet that about Nikki earlier today.
spk_0
I did have this thought, which is this song is about how hating someone so much and
spk_0
talking about them and obsessing over them constantly is a bit homoerotic.
spk_0
And there were tweets throughout the week
spk_0
from observers of the Cardi B, Nikki beef saying,
spk_0
this is bordering on the homoerotics.
spk_0
This is.
spk_0
And if I, I mean, it's not bordering on, I mean, it's not bordering.
spk_0
No, I'm saying the Nikki the Nikki Cardi card.
spk_0
This song though, no.
spk_0
And I'm just saying, if I worked for Cardi B, I would say,
spk_0
you're waking up and you're posting a video of yourself dancing to actually
spk_0
romantic.
spk_0
I thought you were saying putting a 16 on this.
spk_0
That too.
spk_0
But a 16 free idea.
spk_0
Cardi put a 16 on actually romantic.
spk_0
Let's go.
spk_0
So there is this.
spk_0
We are now in the Taylor is a roused section of this album.
spk_0
Sorry.
spk_0
I mean, the final lyric of the bridge of actually romantic
spk_0
stopped me in my tracks.
spk_0
Oh, I thought you were just going to say what it is.
spk_0
No, I'm always going to play.
spk_0
Can I?
spk_0
Blush.
spk_0
I won't.
spk_0
Taylor says it's kind of making me wet.
spk_0
Can we just skip out and talk about wood?
spk_0
Yeah, the hell with wish list.
spk_0
When I was thinking about how to write the intro for my review, it was challenging to not think of
spk_0
actually romantic, not in Congress with wood.
spk_0
I blushed when I heard wood.
spk_0
I assume a lot of people blushed when they heard wood.
spk_0
I'm going to assume everybody in this morning.
spk_0
You think Travis Kelsey blushed?
spk_0
I was already read.
spk_0
Can't blush.
spk_0
So I think what I said in my reviews, wood is about a reliable lover.
spk_0
Look, we're just doing else's reliable.
spk_0
You know what? We're just two grown men here talking about a song about Travis Kelsey.
spk_0
You know what else is reliable?
spk_0
Redwood tree.
spk_0
Play this song.
spk_0
Redwood tree.
spk_0
Ain't hard to see.
spk_0
His love was the key that opened my eyes.
spk_0
Girls, I don't need to catch the bouquet.
spk_0
To know a heart rock.
spk_0
It's on the way.
spk_0
Taylor would like you to know that she's doing fine.
spk_0
That's the takeaway from this is she's doing great.
spk_0
Yeah, she's doing great.
spk_0
She's feeling.
spk_0
Yeah, again, like here we are.
spk_0
Here we are.
spk_0
Here we are.
spk_0
At some point, like, do you know what's up with those guitars?
spk_0
Jackson five literally Jackson five like that.
spk_0
Okay, we're going to step back from.
spk_0
I think I had to do the subject.
spk_0
Okay, fine.
spk_0
Do Max Martin and Shell back in Taylor's with think that no one has ever heard.
spk_0
I watch you back by the Jackson five before.
spk_0
Do they think that?
spk_0
I have we entered such an A historical era that no person has ever heard that song.
spk_0
It seems so blatantly a copy.
spk_0
spk_0
I went back to listen to it.
spk_0
There is like a second.
spk_0
Not the same.
spk_0
It's insane.
spk_0
There's like a secondary baseline in the Jackson five that like kind of like cuts it a little bit.
spk_0
But basically, the rhythm of the guitar is the same.
spk_0
Very strange.
spk_0
Uncredited.
spk_0
Maybe again, by tomorrow.
spk_0
Credited.
spk_0
Yes.
spk_0
I have two songs that I think this track is a little bit in dialogue with.
spk_0
One, again, these people love word play.
spk_0
I think I wish you would from 1989,
spk_0
which is a Jack Ants and I've sung not a Max Martin song.
spk_0
But I think there's something in common here with the flow.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
I don't know if she knows that.
spk_0
And Kai is my neck my back.
spk_0
No, no, no.
spk_0
Similar, sorry, something else.
spk_0
Similar.
spk_0
Speaking of word play,
spk_0
two Britney Spears songs.
spk_0
If you seek Amy and three,
spk_0
both Max Martin production.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
So Kai, both just in you endo.
spk_0
If you seek Amy, get it.
spk_0
Okay.
spk_0
So Cardi should remix actually romantic.
spk_0
Sexy Red on wood on wood.
spk_0
After what sexy red?
spk_0
Like just a Bieber album.
spk_0
Well, I don't know.
spk_0
Larry Nate golf.
spk_0
I don't know that I think I might faint if sexy red wraps on this.
spk_0
These two songs that we've been talking about,
spk_0
what do they tell you about where Taylor is in her life
spk_0
and in her willingness to be expressive publicly?
spk_0
Because I think one of the things that Taylor has taught us,
spk_0
you talked about Taylor has taught us to treat songwriting as auto-biographical
spk_0
and to look for the kind of Easter eggs that are about her actual life.
spk_0
The other thing that Taylor taught us over the years is
spk_0
she has slow walked all these kind of hallmarks of adulthood in her songwriting,
spk_0
whether it's cursing or talking about sex, drinking.
spk_0
spk_0
These are all things that LIA drugs have been
spk_0
meet it out in very, very slow and deliberate fashion over the years.
spk_0
Seemingly long after they would have happened for most people that age.
spk_0
Like she was quite conservative about it.
spk_0
And then this album is just like the hell with all that.
spk_0
We're going in.
spk_0
What is she trying to tell us?
spk_0
She's trying to tell us I played 149 shows for your kids.
spk_0
Like cover their ears if they can't hear this stuff.
spk_0
You know, I think it's like, what am I going to do?
spk_0
I'm going to be sooner than later, 40 years old.
spk_0
What's that like?
spk_0
Yeah, to be nearing your 40s.
spk_0
Yeah, no idea.
spk_0
It's tough.
spk_0
But at the same time, there's something playful and juvenile about these songs.
spk_0
spk_0
And being like, yeah.
spk_0
So it's like, it's just that's who she is.
spk_0
Like, I think that's who she is.
spk_0
I think she's been famous.
spk_0
She was a teenager.
spk_0
She likes her, uh, silly sense of humor.
spk_0
She likes her word play.
spk_0
She has not felt, um, unleashed to be able to use it.
spk_0
Like I bet you she sends a lot of really funny,
spk_0
dirty text to her group chat.
spk_0
You know what I mean?
spk_0
Like, do you think that?
spk_0
Yeah, I think she, I think her sense of humor is probably more rated
spk_0
are than how the music has been in the past, which is not a high bar.
spk_0
If anybody is related to PG 13, if anybody's in a Taylor group chat and watching this,
spk_0
let us know how much is she cursed?
spk_0
Which one?
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
How much in you end up?
spk_0
It's the record.
spk_0
You're you're not you're an enemy will be protected.
spk_0
Or Taylor text.
spk_0
Yeah, you have her numbers, I'm sure somehow.
spk_0
Somewhere.
spk_0
Um, I don't want to say that's the end of the album.
spk_0
There are three additional songs.
spk_0
Let's kind of collapse the three songs into a one-on-one snack segment,
spk_0
which we haven't done.
spk_0
I feel like the last three episodes when we've had snacks,
spk_0
we're looking at our guests and we're just like, what do they like?
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
What do they want?
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
You know what?
spk_0
Today's about us.
spk_0
Every episode of PopCast.
spk_0
That's right.
spk_0
Ends with a snack review.
spk_0
That's right.
spk_0
Our editor working very hard to turn this episode around as quickly as possible
spk_0
to please our listeners and the algorithm.
spk_0
And also Sophie.
spk_0
And also Sophie our producer.
spk_0
We got banana planks.
spk_0
And we've got strawberry planks.
spk_0
What is the company and makes these?
spk_0
This is Uncle Alice.
spk_0
All right, I'm gonna be so I bought these in Mississippi.
spk_0
I was down there for the Theo Vontour.
spk_0
I went to a barbecue restaurant on the way to the airport.
spk_0
Everybody recommended to me just out of the center of Oxford, Mississippi.
spk_0
This was on the snack rack.
spk_0
I'd never seen on quals.
spk_0
I don't know if it's original.
spk_0
I don't know anything about it.
spk_0
There were multiple flavors.
spk_0
I just bought those two because they were the ones that I thought I would most like.
spk_0
They're giving.
spk_0
Let's see.
spk_0
Let's try them.
spk_0
I don't know.
spk_0
Yeah, they're made in Alabama.
spk_0
Oh, they're local.
spk_0
They're from Alabama, maybe in the USA.
spk_0
Great news.
spk_0
Probably, according to the label,
spk_0
may be produced with genetic engineering.
spk_0
John, why don't you start with the strawberry
spk_0
and I'll start with the banana.
spk_0
And we can talk about cancelled honey and the closer,
spk_0
which we've already discussed a little bit.
spk_0
All right, so cancelled is probably my least favorite song on this album.
spk_0
I agree.
spk_0
It's just so reputation coded.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
And reputation was the right album for the reputation moment.
spk_0
This is like a protest to me.
spk_0
What's this about?
spk_0
Also, you just spent six songs ago.
spk_0
All your kind of vocal energy being like,
spk_0
I'm not a bad bitch.
spk_0
And now you're like, I only hang with bad bitches.
spk_0
If you're not a bad bitch, I don't want to get down with you.
spk_0
I think the concept of cancellation has evolved so rapidly
spk_0
in the last days, weeks, months, and year.
spk_0
Like, I just, I don't need,
spk_0
I don't want to hear a song about cancellation,
spk_0
no matter where the stance is.
spk_0
And I don't quite grasp what her stance is in this song.
spk_0
It doesn't feel like a direct song.
spk_0
It doesn't land for me.
spk_0
What are you thinking about?
spk_0
Something to do with Blake Lively maybe.
spk_0
Blake Lively's in this lawsuit.
spk_0
Taylor Swift has been roped into it.
spk_0
Is she saying I stand by you?
spk_0
I'm not really sure.
spk_0
I like my friends canceled.
spk_0
That's the lyric.
spk_0
Dutchy?
spk_0
I don't know.
spk_0
Does that mean she likes Kanye?
spk_0
Definitely not.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
All right.
spk_0
I don't go.
spk_0
Is this like a pop tart with no filling?
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
Is that what this is?
spk_0
Smells fake in a nice way.
spk_0
I don't know.
spk_0
No, I'm not sure.
spk_0
Definitely stale.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
I'm going to taste like a cookie.
spk_0
Like I'm eating a cookie and banana lafay taffy at the same time,
spk_0
which I would never do.
spk_0
Wow.
spk_0
That is extremely chemically.
spk_0
Extremely chemically.
spk_0
Like this is not a god.
spk_0
Like no, not a god color.
spk_0
This is not a pure nature.
spk_0
No.
spk_0
All right.
spk_0
It's got nothing to do with a strawberry.
spk_0
It's genetically produced.
spk_0
Oh, I didn't even realize the frosting was banana colored as well.
spk_0
Oh, yeah.
spk_0
That would have been an look.
spk_0
That would have been an looks like to you.
spk_0
I hate these.
spk_0
You like the banana.
spk_0
All right.
spk_0
I'm going to take a bite of the strawberry.
spk_0
You like honey?
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
You know, it's funny.
spk_0
It's like people used to call me sweetheart and then baby
spk_0
when they were patronizing me,
spk_0
when they were talking down to me.
spk_0
And now you call me honey and baby because you love me.
spk_0
Mm-hmm.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
It's clever.
spk_0
It's a little slight musically, I think.
spk_0
I think that's fair.
spk_0
The only thing to me that really stuck with me about honey
spk_0
is it feels like New Year's Day to me.
spk_0
When I-
spk_0
Taylor Swift saw it.
spk_0
Yes, not the harder.
spk_0
Yes, Taylor's New Year's Day, which is the kind of
spk_0
pensive, ballad about falling in love at the end of...
spk_0
Love for?
spk_0
Love for?
spk_0
Love for?
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
This feels like maybe like a tiny bit up tempo,
spk_0
a little bit top more taught,
spk_0
but it recalls that spaciousness.
spk_0
And I thought maybe it's a tiny bit of a call back to that.
spk_0
Similar piano line.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
Yeah, this last stretch of the album,
spk_0
maybe I just need more time with it.
spk_0
It feels a little bit like an anti-climax,
spk_0
especially after, again, I think this middle stretch is
spk_0
really, really, really strong, especially for modern day Taylor.
spk_0
Yeah, I like the song.
spk_0
It's perfectly pleasant,
spk_0
but it doesn't feel meaningful or waiting to me.
spk_0
spk_0
spk_0
What really doesn't feel essential to me is the title track,
spk_0
which does feel like I'm after thought,
spk_0
I don't know why Sabrina's on this,
spk_0
except to sort of like prove a point to Olivia,
spk_0
or anyone else.
spk_0
Or Jappola and Missed Out.
spk_0
I think she sounds good on it.
spk_0
I think they sound a little similar.
spk_0
They sound very similar.
spk_0
Like, text to you earlier to be like,
spk_0
this line,
spk_0
or they have to go live.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
I think it's a good song.
spk_0
I just don't know.
spk_0
Other than the explanation we gave earlier,
spk_0
which is this sort of like,
spk_0
this was my, this is the facade I was dealing with.
spk_0
And let me just wrap it up in a story song.
spk_0
It has a little country energy, right?
spk_0
Like the lyrics.
spk_0
It's a little bit country.
spk_0
I feel about this line, I think,
spk_0
the way that you feel about the fate of a failure,
spk_0
which is like, it feels very written,
spk_0
and it feels very much like,
spk_0
I'm here to prove it like I've over determined.
spk_0
Yes, I'm exactly, it's over determined.
spk_0
I'm here to tell this to horrendous.
spk_0
Uncle Al.
spk_0
I'm going to be honest,
spk_0
I like the banana one.
spk_0
Is that the one that wasn't stale?
spk_0
I thought they were both quite stale.
spk_0
Oh, expired.
spk_0
It's already, it might be expired.
spk_0
What does it say on the back?
spk_0
No, banana doesn't expire until Halloween.
spk_0
Oh, well, that's why it's delicious.
spk_0
We're going to give it to the kids.
spk_0
You're going to, the trick or treaters in your neighborhood
spk_0
or about to get Uncle Al's banana cookie.
spk_0
All right, this is not an elegant cookie,
spk_0
the sort of the, the, the, the,
spk_0
the mealiness, the kind of like soft crumble of the thing.
spk_0
Yeah, it's not great.
spk_0
I'm going to give the banana a six.
spk_0
I'm going to give the strawberry a two.
spk_0
Yeah, these are, these are, these are twos.
spk_0
These are strong twos.
spk_0
Both twos?
spk_0
These are, these are firm twos.
spk_0
With my apologies, Uncle Al.
spk_0
Yeah, like, I like the spirit.
spk_0
I love a regional cookie.
spk_0
I love the spirit of Uncle Al.
spk_0
I'm pretty sure it's not working for me.
spk_0
So sorry.
spk_0
Um, bless, bless your heart, Uncle Al.
spk_0
spk_0
I'm calling you honey, you know, um, before we go,
spk_0
we're doing an instant reaction.
spk_0
This could change.
spk_0
This could change next week when maybe we do another
spk_0
Taylor Swift episode.
spk_0
In fact, send us your questions for that.
spk_0
100% you have questions about Taylor Swift.
spk_0
We're going to do a Taylor specific mailbag with,
spk_0
with the whole crew, full box, uh, jump,
spk_0
prellis, Karen Gans,
spk_0
Lizzo, Lizzo, Lads, Ben Cicero,
spk_0
we're, we're going in.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
Next week, it's life of a showgirl season, uh,
spk_0
send us your questions about Taylor,
spk_0
about this album, about her career arc.
spk_0
But as we've fade out, where are you putting this in your Taylor
spk_0
rankings right now?
spk_0
As we speak, it doesn't have to be exact,
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but roughly because to me, I think,
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definitely better than the last two,
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which are two of my least favorite Taylor albums.
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I like a lot of Taylor albums.
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I like a lot of Taylor albums a lot.
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It's in the middle third.
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Yeah.
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That's where we 12 albums for Taylor.
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Yeah.
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444.
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I think it's in the middle four.
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It's, it's maybe, and maybe it's dead in the middle
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to the top of the middle four.
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Yeah.
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It's not better than the reputation.
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It's not better than 1989.
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It's not better than speaking out like it's definitely, you know,
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I'm going to go ahead and say it's better than 1989 for me.
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Early on, I'm, you know, I'm on record as a 1989 skeptic.
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And I think this is a more effective version of Max and Taylor together
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because it's both of them doing what they're best at.
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I feel like I still,
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there's something I'm missing.
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I'm waiting for the explosion on this album.
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The explosion never comes.
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Doesn't mean I don't like it.
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Doesn't mean it's not good.
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But I still feel like there's something that's like left unfinished.
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What do you guys think?
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Get in the comments.
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Every episode of popcast is at youtube.com slash popcast.
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We'll be back next week with round two audio episode with the whole crew.
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