Entertainment
241: On Lilith Fair, Milan Fashion Week, Jane Birkin (Feat. Marisa Meltzer)
In this episode, hosts Lauren Garrone and Chelsea Fairless dive into the cultural impact of Lilith Fair, the iconic 90s women's music festival, alongside its recent documentary, 'Lilith Fair...
241: On Lilith Fair, Milan Fashion Week, Jane Birkin (Feat. Marisa Meltzer)
Entertainment •
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Interactive Transcript
Speaker A
I spent $40,000 on shoes. What's the matter, Morty?
Speaker B
Floral.
Speaker A
The sting. 10 tomorrow. Dress floral. The Sting.
Speaker C
Great gowns, beautiful gowns.
Speaker B
Fashion has changed. No, it hasn't.
Speaker A
Hi, I'm Lauren Garrone.
Speaker B
And I'm Chelsea Fairless.
Speaker A
And welcome back to the Every Outfit podcast.
Speaker B
Wow. Lauren is wearing a Nine Inch Nails baseball hat, which is a little out of character for you style wise. I assume that you procured this from the Nine Inch Nails show.
Speaker A
This is true. I went to the penultimate Nine Inch Nails show from their latest tour, the Peel It Back tour. And you know, I love Trent Reznor. I have been seeing Nine Inch Nails for 20 years. I support his score work. I gotta say, the Merchant little weak on this tour. That's why I'm only wearing the hat and not in a full Nine Inch Nails merch outfit.
Speaker B
Okay. Yeah, but this hat looks great. Like they really did something with that logo. And honestly, they shouldn't ever have a problem designing merch cuz they should just slap that on everything.
Speaker A
I agree with you. The Nin. Or Nin, as my mother used to say.
Speaker B
I love Nin.
Speaker A
I saw them at the Kia Forum, which is a great venue. I feel like, underrated.
Speaker B
I love Kia Forum. That's where I saw Oprah during the cursed, like 2020 wellness tour that she did like two days before the pandemic shut down.
Speaker A
Oh my God. I remember you going to that.
Speaker B
Yeah, I remember there was this part where she told us all to meditate and I could just hear people coughing throughout the Kia Forum. And Tat and I were like, we're going to die, aren't we?
Speaker A
Okay, well, we didn't have that experience. Experience. It made me remember that the last time I was at the Forum was when Prince did This unprecedented, like 20 days in a row concert because he was trying to stop the Forum from being destroyed.
Speaker B
Wait, you saw Prince?
Speaker A
I did.
Speaker B
Oh, that's amazing.
Speaker A
It was an incredible experience. And yeah, he literally played every day until the owners of the Forum were like, okay, we won't tear it down. We'll just keep it as a music venue.
Speaker B
I love it there. It's so fabulous.
Speaker A
It's wonderful. This was a very interesting concert. As someone who's seen Nine Inch Nails many times, there were two stages. There was a smaller stage in the center where they did more deconstructed versions of their hit songs. They also invited a DJ named Boyz Noise on stage and they did an incredible remix of Closer, which is for those that don't know the Fucking no.
Speaker B
Don't even explain it to them. If you don't know, you don't know. If you don't know, Google it and figure it out.
Speaker A
I mean, some people don't know that that's the fuck you like an animal song.
Speaker B
Well, they should. And then, and we're not pandering to them today.
Speaker A
And then they would switch back and forth to a, to a bigger stage. But I have to admit I. I left before the encore because as someone that has seen them many, many times, they're probably the band I've seen the most over the years. They always end with Head Like a Hole and Hurt. And I don't need to see those songs performed again.
Speaker B
Well, sometimes you just need to flee the Kia Forum early just to get into Uber.
Speaker A
Absolutely. We drove. But yeah, I didn't want to be there.
Speaker B
Oh, so what was your excuse?
Speaker A
I didn't want to be stuck there.
Speaker B
You're getting too old, Lauren. You're an old married woman with a child and you can't stay for the Nine Inch Nails encore.
Speaker A
I'm going to be honest, I was born middle aged. I'm just aging into the age I've always been. What else? Okay, before we get into the things we're going to talk about today, I feel like I owe the listeners an apology. A few weeks ago on the podcast, I discussed how I didn't think that people should cancel their Disney plus subscriptions. This is in relation to the Jimmy Kimmel show being pulled off air. I was not able to explain myself properly because I wanted to explain the drama that was going on with the local affiliates. I was encouraging people to maybe not cancel Disney plus more for the fact that I thought Disney would have the balls to put Jimmy Kimmel's late show on Disney plus? That did not turn out to be the case. And it does turn out that people boycotting and canceling their Disney plus subscriptions, their Hulu subscriptions, their Disney cruises. I don't know if you saw there was a woman who canceled her $150,000 Disney wedding.
Speaker B
Well, that was just a good idea.
Speaker A
I know a lot to unpack about the $150,000 Disney wedding, but we won't get into that. But yeah, it seems like economic pressure does indeed work. So keep canceling. Except don't. Did you see that Cynthia Nixon did a video encouraging people to cancel their Disney plus?
Speaker B
Of course she was like, I love Abbott elementary, but I can't do this anymore.
Speaker A
But did you see the video that when they brought Jimmy Kimme on air, she did a video where she was wearing Mickey Mouse ears and she was like, okay, everyone, now resubscribe to Disney plus. Wow.
Speaker B
No, I must have missed the follow up.
Speaker A
Did you also see the post of the actor Noah Centineo, who posted a screenshot that he had canceled Disney plus, but it became clear based on the cancellation date that he had bought a year subscription two days before just to performatively cancel it. And they were like, your subscription will be canceled a year from now. I love that.
Speaker B
That's great. Okay. But we obviously could not cancel Hulu because we had to watch this Lilith Fair documentary. I'm sorry, I know it's wrong, but, like, it would be sad if we all missed out on that.
Speaker A
No, it's very true.
Speaker B
So this documentary, we talked about it when the trailer came out. It's called Lilith Fair Building a Mystery, directed by Ali Pankiw, produced by Dan levy, about the iconic 90s women's music festival. I have been waiting for this for so long, and I'm genuinely so sad that the red carpet for this was canceled because of the Jimmy Kimmel situation.
Speaker A
No.
Speaker B
Like, 24 hours before the premiere, they were like, we're not having a carpet. And all of the girls were supposed to perform, I guess, after the screening. And they canceled that in solidarity with Jimmy Kimmel, which is nice, but sad. Like, I would love to see Sarah McLachlan hit the red carpet.
Speaker A
Well, because what I got out of this documentary is we're never going to see a Lilith Fair revival ever again. That would have been the closest we would have gotten.
Speaker B
But why not? Because that's the one thing that could get me out of the house at this point. But I loved this so much because I think I mentioned it before, but I did go to Lilith Fair back in the day.
Speaker A
Which year did you go to?
Speaker B
I went in 1998 and 1999. So the last two, I missed the first one, unfortunately. But I went in San Francisco. I drove down with my dad, and both times I think I saw Sarah McLachlan, Cheryl Crow, the Indigo Girls. Like, they were pretty much always on the bill. And then one year, I saw Erykah Badu, Michelle Ndeg, Ucello. Who else? Natalie Merchant. And then the other year, it was like the Pretenders. That was the one that was emceed by Sandra Bernhard. I saw Maya, which I completely forgot about until I saw the footage of her at Lilith Fair.
Speaker A
Did you feel 107 years old when the documentary begins with Olivia Rodrigo discussing the fact that she Was like, wow, it was so amazing to find out that all of my favorite female artists played at a festival together. And I had no idea.
Speaker B
Yeah, that scared me a little bit. But I like that she cares.
Speaker A
The documentary gives some backstory that I didn't know, which is that women were not supposed to be played back to back on radio stations well into the late 1990s.
Speaker B
So crazy.
Speaker A
They also get into the misogyny of the time and really just how like shock jocks are. Are a plague on society. Like Jewel discusses the way that she would be introduced when she first came out and would do radio appearances, such as she was once asked, how do you give blow jobs with teeth like that? And she was introduced as the large breasted singer from Alaska.
Speaker B
So up. Yeah, I never saw a Lilith Fair with Jewel. I don't think Jewel came back after the first year, although I feel like she is one of the artists that really defined it for the American public. Whether you went or not, it became this sort of pop culture thing. They talk about how it was parodied on SNL and how obviously people like Jerry Falwell and conservative media hated it just solely because it was an all women's music festival.
Speaker A
Again, I think the beginning of the documentary, they lay a really great groundwork as to why there needed to be an all female festival. You know, how hostile the media climate was at the time. And to your point about why can't we have another Lilithaire, Which I agree, they kind of answer that question at the end of the documentary, or at least the. The point that they're trying to connect at the end of the documentary is this idea of like, well, you don't need an all women's festival anymore because female artists, whether it's Beyonce or Taylor Swift or Olivia Rodrigo, Billie Eilish are powerful enough to headline Arenas themselves.
Speaker B
Right. But that original crew, they're kind of all on a similar fame level. I mean, not all of them, but let's say Sheryl Crow, Jewel, etc. They could just bring back the original lineup.
Speaker A
Yeah, I mean, the nostalgia of that time, like watching this documentary made me realize if I could live in one time period forever, it would be between the years 1997 and 1999. Yeah, like I was a child. But I would like to forever live in that three year time span.
Speaker B
See, I would like to forever live at Lilith Fair because the vibe was so incredible, because it was such a mix of people. Because in the Bay Area, like in the 90s, there was still a bit of like counterculture in that sort of hippie way. Right. Like, it was a mix of hippies and the kind of people that would normally be at, like, Ani DeFranco concerts and shit. Then there is obviously a lot of gay people and then a lot of people that were more like alternative. It was obviously mostly women in the crowd. And it's truly a high I've been chasing ever since.
Speaker A
There is a woman featured in this documentary that I was like, that's Chelsea. If Chelsea could go back and be anyone, you would be the woman who was in her early 20s that accidentally became the tour production manager for all of Lilith Fair.
Speaker B
I wish. Well, I related more to what Dan Levy was saying because he was also in the documentary because he had attended Lilith Fair and was talking about how safe he felt as a little gay boy. That had been bull. And just. I completely relate to that. Not the bullying part, thank God, but it was just the perfect vibe. Sponsored by Starbucks.
Speaker A
Yeah, the. The charity component was incredibly admirable. Just the. The reach that that festival had. And also I think the other reason that we need Lilith Fair. But why? Maybe it wouldn't work today. Or at least I learned they tried to bring it back in 2010, which I had no idea. Did you?
Speaker B
Yeah. But they fucked up with the lineup. It was very, very different.
Speaker A
Right. They didn't just get the original people from the Affair.
Speaker B
No. And another thing I think this documentary does a good job of doing is showing that it was more diverse than people give it credit for, because most of the headlining artists, a lot of them were more pop rock or like folk rock musicians like Sarah McLachlan, like Jewel, what have you. But at the same time, there was also Queen Latifah, Missy Elliott, hip hop artists, country artists like the Dixie Chicks. Like, musically, it was incredibly varied in terms of the kind of people that performed.
Speaker A
I think a word that was spoken in the documentary that is so true is it was incredibly earnest. Like, Sandra Bernhardt made fun of the festival before she experienced it. And when she's interviewed in this documentary, she's like, yeah, I just. I don't know. I thought it was of the Canyon vibes is how she refers to it before she actually went to Lilith Fair.
Speaker B
Well, and I remember that because she talked shit about Lilith Fair in one of her HBO specials back in the day. And I watched those religiously. And I think she was more speaking to jewelry. Cause that is like an incredibly earnest artist that someone like Sandra Bernhardt I can't imagine fucking with in a million years. But at the same time, there actually were people like Patti Smith that she would fuck with that performed there as well. And also Sinead. Oh, my God. Like, all that footage of Sinead, it made me so sad that I didn't go in 1997.
Speaker A
So Sinead O' Connor was there the first year.
Speaker B
Sinead was there the first year. But like that footage of Sinead and Sarah McLachlan singing Angel, I can't also just. This documentary had so much archival footage that has never been seen before. Just seeing little things like Bonnie Raitt jamming out to Queen Latifah. So good.
Speaker A
I had that in my notes as well.
Speaker B
Well, there were some things that were a bit campy that they included, I think, for camp value. Like, I would also put Jewel yodeling during the group performance of Closer to Fine in that category. I forgot that she did that.
Speaker A
Oh, I mean, that woman loved yodel. There's a lot of great archival footage. But I do think this documentary speaks to the state of media preservation because when they show the Grammys. So the year after the first Lilith Fair, where Paula Cole wins, Sarah McLachlan wins, you know, all of these Lilithaire artists end up winning and are forced to perform together, unlike the other artists. Was it Best New Artists? Was that the category, A record of the Year?
Speaker B
Because, I mean, I forget what they were nominated for. That was certainly fud up.
Speaker A
Yeah. In hindsight, giving Hansen and R. Kelly their own space to perform, but forcing Paula Cole, Sarah McLachlan. And who was the third? Natalie Merchant?
Speaker B
I forget. Was it Sean Colvin?
Speaker A
I don't know Sean Colvin. Yeah. To all perform together. But they clearly Paramount, CBS does not have old Grammys available to play because in this documentary, it is clearly a ripped VHS recording of that year Grammys. It's not from, like, a professional source.
Speaker B
Yeah. It's crazy how much Lilith Fare actually did for Sarah McLachlan's career. Because the album that had come out before Surfacing, and I think Surfacing had come out a little before the first Lilith Fair. Like, it really is that music festival that propelled her to stardom within the United States. Certainly that.
Speaker A
And I feel like around that time, the song angel, and I believe Paula Cole has a song on the City of Angels soundtrack, which was such a cultural moment, very specific to the year 1998.
Speaker B
But, yeah, angel was on the City of Angel soundtrack. But I feel like all of the singles from that album were big hits here at the time. And also, like, it was fun revisiting songs like Paula Cole's where of all the Cowboys Gone, Sean Colvin's Sonny Came Home. It's crazy that in the 90s there were all these, I would say, one or two hit wonders. Like, Paula Cole had a couple of hits, certainly, but some of those songs that penetrated the top 40 were really insane. Like, where have all the Cowboys Gone? And Sunny Came Home were both, like, very intense songs that had these insane narratives about bad marriages. There's so much storytelling. Like, you're like, oh, this bitch is really burning down her house.
Speaker A
Well, the documentary unlocked an adolescent memory that made me feel, in retrospect, terrible about, which is in the segment where they're talking about the Grammys, where they're all nominated, they all win. That was the moment when they're all performing together where Paula Cole lifted up her arm and she hadn't shaved her armpits, and everyone made fun of the fact that she had hairy armpits. And I do remember in elementary school, it was like, where have all the cowboys Gone? They've gone in your armpits is what we used to say. And I feel terrible about it. Some internalized misogyny.
Speaker B
Oh, of course, it was the same when Julia Roberts went to that one award show and didn't shave. Which, in retrospect, much more subversive. Like, I expect it from Paula Cole, absolutely. But not so much from her.
Speaker A
I didn't realize out of all of the festivals, because this was a time where there's kind of a lack of context of all the festivals that were happening at the same time. But I remember Warp Tour, Ozfest. Like, everyone had a genre festival. Like, that was the time.
Speaker B
Yeah, all of my friends were a little too cool for Lilith Fair. They were all like, Warped Tour, for sure, of course. But I was Lilith Fair.
Speaker A
You were. You were an earnest little baby lesbian.
Speaker B
Well, it wasn't as if I wasn't also into, like, artists like hole or L7 or bikini kill, that kind of music, you know, that was much, like, harder than Lilith Fair. I was into all of it, but Lilith Fair was just, like, such a special, positive place.
Speaker A
My other favorite segment, just because this has been spoken about in various documentaries over the last few years of, like, just how toxic Woodstock 99 was.
Speaker B
Oh, my God. I know the fact that that happened the same year. And didn't Sheryl Crowe also perform at Woodstock 99, or did I just make that up?
Speaker A
No, Jewel performed. Sheryl Crow performed. And Sheryl Crowe and I think someone else, I can't remember who left Lilith Fair to perform Woodstock. And then another thing fascinating about lilithaire that I just don't think is done at festivals anymore is just a press conference every tour stop.
Speaker B
Okay. But for Lilith Fair, that seemed like a terrible idea because people just ask them the most sexist questions. And someone asked Sheryl Crow about the rapes at Woodstock 99. And she gave truly the most psychotic answer, which was.
Speaker A
Was that in the documentary?
Speaker B
Yeah, they were like, what did you do? Like, when you heard. And she was basically like, sort of put on an affected voice and was like, oh, I just ran into, like, Sarah's bosom and was like, oh, my God. It's like, well, yeah, it's really fucked up. But I don't know. I think it's obviously an uncomfortable question to be asked in a situation like that.
Speaker A
Yeah, you and I are very anti Q and in all forms.
Speaker B
Yeah. Also, it was so fun seeing the girls. Now, like, Suzanne Vega looks like a supermodel.
Speaker A
Sarah McLachlan looks incredible.
Speaker B
They're all looking good. They've all gotten, like, some good work. The right amount.
Speaker A
Oh, you think none of them have aged naturally?
Speaker B
I don't know if they've aged totally naturally. No shade.
Speaker A
I didn't realize that out of all of those festivals, according to the documentary, Lilith Fair was the most successful. And I guess I had just assumed because they only did it for three years and then stopped, that it just wasn't viable anymore. But that wasn't the case at all. They just. Sarah McLachlan wanted to start a family. She's like, I did my thing. Now all of you go out and continue.
Speaker B
Well, now she needs to get back into it.
Speaker A
Absolutely. Although I think this documentary gave us the answer of how Sarah McLachlan let. What is it, the ASPCA use Angel. Angel in those commercials? Because Sarah McLachlan talks about how she's just a very nice person that doesn't like conflict. So it feels to me that the ASPCA was like, can we use this for a very sad dog commercial that's going to make everyone feel very sad. And she was like, I don't know how to say no. So sure.
Speaker B
Well, I'm sure she's raised millions and millions of dollars for them with that song. Although it was actually about the touring keyboardist for the Smashing Pumpkins, Odin, in his hotel room. Oh, anywho, watch the Lilith Fair doc if you still have Hulu.
Speaker A
All right. Shall we get into a very zeitgeisty film? No, we're not talking about one battle after another, unfortunately. Chelsea and I have not seen the film yet. We are talking about the film Weapons, which came out over the summer. But Chell and I have finally seen the movie, so we're gonna talk about it now.
Speaker B
What did you think?
Speaker A
I really enjoyed it. This is Zach Kreger's follow up film. He made the movie Barbarian, which I was obsessed with. Didn't love this film as much as Barbarian, but yeah, I really enjoyed it.
Speaker B
I liked it as much as Barbarian. I liked it a lot.
Speaker A
How are we gonna talk about this film? Because it's always.
Speaker B
I don't know. But before we get into it, could you get me a bowl of water really quick? And also perhaps a lock of your hair? And also if you have any old newspapers laying around, I might need to just cover up the windows real quick.
Speaker A
Chelsea, why do you have that stick? We never know how to talk about relatively new releases because we don't want to spoil it for people who haven't seen it. But for those who haven't seen it, we want to discuss it as thoroughly as possible.
Speaker B
Well, I don't think that we need to spoil the ending, but I think we can reveal that Chapel Roan plays a really psycho witch.
Speaker A
Do we want to discuss what the film is about?
Speaker B
Sure, give me the logline.
Speaker A
I mean, if you've seen the trailer at 2:17, a bunch of children from one classroom, except one child, all run into the night and disappear. And this film is either a metaphor about school shootings or is about nothing. I don't know.
Speaker B
I'm fine either way.
Speaker A
Yeah, I. I don't think the film needs to necessarily be about anything. Zach Kreger really hasn't gone on record as I don't think he should discussing what the film is about. But Zach Kreger was in a group called the Whitest Kids. You know, his comedy partner, Trevor Moore died in 2017. People believe, and I do think it's true, I. It is about the stages of grief, or at the very least, Josh Brolin, who's in the film, said when he met with Zach Kreger, Zach Kreger said that the. The film is about the stages of grief. And perhaps each character is representative of a different stage of grief.
Speaker B
I can see that.
Speaker A
Or the film is about how there's nothing scarier than an old woman who has thinning hair.
Speaker B
Yeah, I watched it with Chat and she was like, is that Kathy Griffin in prosthetics? And I was like, it's actually sad that Kathy Griffin didn't get that role.
Speaker A
No, it's the. It's the actress Amy Madigan looking like the. The crony neighbor from Rosemary's Baby. I imagine that had to be on the mood board.
Speaker B
Yeah. She also got kind of like a long legs beat.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker B
You know what the beginning reminded me of all of the children running into the night. Do you remember, like, the beginning of the Freak on a Leash video by Korn? Like, we remember it because of the part where the bullet is in slow motion, but there was a whole animated section where all these children are, like, running out of their houses in the middle of the night. Do you have any recollection of this?
Speaker A
Vaguely, yes.
Speaker B
I don't know. That's what I thought of when I saw that. But the footage of the children running looked incredible. The footage of the children running through people's houses, so good. It was really visually gorgeous.
Speaker A
Yeah. I mean, again, as someone who didn't get to see the film as soon as it came out, looking online and seeing multiple photos of Aunt Gladys, I could sort of piece together what the film was about. I do think that it does suffer from something I'll call the Jordan Peele ositis, which is, the more you think about the logic of the film, the less it makes sense.
Speaker B
Right.
Speaker A
Where you're like, okay, so everyone has ring footage of their children leaving their homes. None of these parents have put the footage all together to be like, hey, do we think they ran to the same place maybe?
Speaker B
Yeah. No one's like, knocking on the neighbor's door and being like, can we look at your ring cam footage?
Speaker A
No, you need Josh Brolin a month later to be like, hey, I have footage of my child running away. So weird that we've never asked each other, like, do you also have footage?
Speaker B
Where did these crazy kids go?
Speaker A
What else? I mean, this film was described as a Magnolia esque horror film.
Speaker B
Well, it's Magnolia esque in the sense that you see the perspectives of the different characters. But unlike Magnolia, this is like, kind of non linear. And by kind of, I mean literally.
Speaker A
It more has a Rashomon vibe to it. You've seen the various perspectives on one incident. Alden Ehrenreich, who plays the cop character, did say that he was inspired by Magnolia and John C. Reilly's mustache from Magnolia. That's why he's got the cop mustache.
Speaker B
Cute.
Speaker A
Oh, we haven't even discussed. I mean, it's an ensemble, but the lead is Julia Gardner as the teacher who does not have a Linda Partridge breakdown in a liquor store that I was expecting her to have.
Speaker B
Yeah. But she is also an alcoholic, although she doesn't really do anything super dramatic.
Speaker A
No. And there's a repeated beat about addiction. Julia Garner's character clearly has issues with alcohol. You get the sense that Alden Ehrenreich's character is in recovery. Austin Abrams, who's the tweaker that looks exactly like J. Muse, obviously has a meth addiction of some sort of. I thought that maybe that all of this addiction was leading somewhere, but not so much.
Speaker B
Okay, can we talk about the sassy.
Speaker A
Gay principal, though, played by Benedict Wong?
Speaker B
Yes, he was fab. Although that was truly one of the scariest things I've ever seen. To bring it back to the bowl of water.
Speaker A
All those hot dogs. Do you think they had enough hot dogs? That's another thing that people have pointed out that is a reference to Trevor Moore and the Whitest Kids. You know, I guess they had a sketch about seven hot dogs, and there's exactly seven hot dogs on the tray.
Speaker B
See, that all went over my head.
Speaker A
Will you be dressing as Aunt Gladys for Halloween?
Speaker B
I don't think I'm doing Halloween this year. I think I'm having a lazy year. I don't have any plans. Do you?
Speaker A
I mean, dressing the baby in a cute costume.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
I think my trick or treating days are years to come.
Speaker B
All right, shall we move on to fashion?
Speaker A
Yes. Milan Fashion Week has just ended.
Speaker B
There's always something great at Milan Fashion Week, but this season there's been so many shakeups at all of their, like, biggest brands that it's just been a fascinating thing to watch. Starting with Gucci by Demna. That was the big surprise of Milan Fashion Week because they dropped a lookbook that was unexpected that no one anticipated. Shot by Catherine Opie. Say no more.
Speaker A
Yeah. I love how fashion designers are surprise. Dropping collections like their Beyonce albums or something.
Speaker B
I think it's smart. I think it takes the pressure off of a big fashion show.
Speaker A
Very true. So the collection is a reinterpretation of Gucci's core identity through a series of quote unquote family portraits. I feel like it's worth noting that Gucci did not have a sartorial identity until Tom Ford. Really? Like, they were known for luggage, bags, scarves. Remember that scene in House of Gucci where Jared Leto's character pisses all over Jeremy Irons scarf?
Speaker B
Just me, actually. I completely forgot about that.
Speaker A
So this is a clue, obviously, into what is in store for Demna at Gucci. And it seems like the starting point is Gucci as alternative history.
Speaker B
In what sense?
Speaker A
Because Gucci doesn't have a sartorial identity. Like, there's no. There's not different Personas.
Speaker B
It does. I get that, like, they're ready to wear didn't really pop off until the 90s, but still, it's like we have an idea of what the Gucci woman is. And I think it's really embodied by that first look that Maria Carlo wore with the red jacket and the scarf and all of that.
Speaker A
Right. I think one of the. The strongest looks in general were all of the coats. Alex Cassania's La Bamba in the short fur coat as a dress, the attitude, the little. What looked like a Gucci version of a baguette. I think, unsurprisingly, all of the Gucci bags come pre distressed. Very demna.
Speaker B
Yeah, they're more just like slouchy, I guess, instead of structured. Although I feel like the focus was less on the bags and more on the. The ready to wear and stuff. I don't know. I liked the collection a lot. It didn't blow my mind, but I think he's on the right track. I'm excited about it, but I'm curious about what's to come, just because I feel like it's so referential to all of the previous incarnations of Gucci, almost to the point of satire. And I'm curious if he will continue doing that to this degree or this is kind of a sort of assessment of, like, what's come before him.
Speaker A
So he did an interview with Women's Wear Daily where he did note that his actual first full collection won't be till February. So really, this is just an amuse bouche. You know, before this collection debuted, there was a lot spoken about that he probably was going to really reference Tom Ford's era of Gucci and that idea of minimalism, which is not something he's necessarily known for, which he did speak about in this womenswear Daily interview where he says, minimalism is something very new to me and super exciting because it's the most difficult aesthetic in design that you can do, and I want to do it in a modern way. And I found a lot of minimalist references in Tom Ford's era, which I find very, very inspiring. And I think I want to build and evolve that in the future.
Speaker B
Well, we predicted that he would lean heavily on Tom Ford and also the rich bitch sort of aspect of Gucci. But, yeah, I love that he brought back the Tom Ford, like the men's, like, swim brief with the tie on the side, and also the Patent heels from the, like, elevator sex ads from the 90s. Very nice to see that stuff.
Speaker A
Yeah. And the details of the. The horse bit on the jeans, those will sell very well.
Speaker B
It's funny to see what Gucciisms he referenced from the Alessandro Michelle era. Like, he did all of those sort of ostrich dressing gowns and he did this sort of nerdy men's look with the western style tie. And I'm just curious if he included that stuff because he loved it, like when Alessandro was doing it. Or again, if it's more of a caricature of Gucci.
Speaker A
I mean, it might be, since quite literally he has created characters of the Gucci customer of the Gucci past and that's what this collection is about.
Speaker B
Yeah. I also wonder to what extent he is being creatively stifled by the powers that be, you know, and hey, maybe that's a positive thing. I think there's certainly a lot of people that didn't want him to bring this sort of Balenciaga look into Gucci. But I do think of Demna as someone that, like, is an extreme designer and a controversial designer and likes to go hard. And this felt like he was trying to do something very different than that.
Speaker A
Well, I think people understandably so think about his work at Balenciaga very specifically. But he was, I think, getting closer to where he wanted to go as a designer with the couture stuff that he was doing. And a lot of this initial collection, there's a lot of gowns as well, which I think he's. He's very interested in.
Speaker B
Yeah. And that's certainly something that Alessandro was doing really well at Gucci in recent years.
Speaker A
I think my point about him doing Gucci as alternative history also ties to this film that the Lookbook was a preview of what was then premiered, which was not a Runway show, but a.
Speaker B
Fashion film, which I watched this film and I was like, I do not get this. I do not like this. I think it did a good job of selling the clothes, but as a movie, and it was quite long for a fashion film, it was a half.
Speaker A
Hour, 33 minutes with credits.
Speaker B
And yeah, the movie did not do it for me.
Speaker A
So the movie is called the Tiger. It is co directed and co written by Spike Jones and Helena Rain, who did Bodies, Bodies, Bodies and Baby Girls. It is about Doug Gucci and Barbara Gucci. Barbara Gucci, played by Demi Moore, who is the president of Gucci International and somehow the chairman of the state of California, which reimagines Demi Moore as a maurizio Gucci figure that she is the one that brought clothing to the Gucci family and revived it, but also moved to Los Angeles and owns the state of California.
Speaker B
And Elliot Page is her son, which I did enjoy. I was like, oh, that seems kind of legit.
Speaker A
Can I tell you what I didn't enjoy? The fact that we're making Edward Norton, who's maybe eight years younger than Demi Moore, her son as well. Didn't like that.
Speaker B
Don't love that.
Speaker A
Also, the substance subtext continues because the film begins with Demi Moore making these very jarring faces a la Margaret Qualley in the Spike Jonze directed Kenzo Adam.
Speaker B
It was very glamorous and I liked the dochi song and all of that, but I just feel like as a movie, I just would not care to watch this. It felt like an SNL skit to me. Like the tone of the humor and stuff. I was like, it's not funny and it just keeps going.
Speaker A
I was trying to find meaning in this fashion film. And I did wonder. There is a part towards the end of this fashion film which again, you guys don't need to watch, but Edward Norton is talking to Demi Moore about, is there a tiger in the room with us? And the tiger is a metaphor, I suppose, and you should just let yourself be consumed by the tiger and let it happen. And I wonder if that's some sort of reference to Demna's cancellation and his own feelings about fashion.
Speaker B
I wonder how involved he actually was with this film. It just doesn't seem like something he would care about.
Speaker A
In the Women's Wear Daily interview, he said he brought the idea to Spike Jonze and Helena Rain, but.
Speaker B
Okay, I stand corrected.
Speaker A
No, but like he doesn't have a writing credit. Those are also two people, to my knowledge, who have never worked together. So it's very interesting that they would co direct and co write this as well.
Speaker B
Yeah, it's a bizarre arrangement. Okay, shall we move on? I'm desperate to talk about Versace.
Speaker A
This was the first collection designed by Dario Vitale. And there seems to be two reactions to this collection. One, it's one of the worst debut collections ever, or two, you just don't get this collection. It's brilliant. Chelsea, what camp do you fall in?
Speaker B
Oh, I love it. To me, this was the most exciting thing that happened in Milan because I love Versace. I love the heritage of the brand. I especially love Gianni Versace and I like that this man made it gay again. Made it really gay. And you know what? It's understandable that Donatella dialed that back a bit when she took over. But Versace was originally conceived of by a man who was inspired by gay subcultural fashion and BDSM and sex workers and stuff like that. And I like that we're returning to that place. It feels like a homecoming. What do you think?
Speaker A
I'm not gonna lie. That first look was very rough. It was very jarring. For those who haven't seen the collection, it's very 80s. And I know that a lot of designers are referencing the 80s in their collections, but this is truly, like, an extra in a John Hughes film level of, like, 1980s accuracy.
Speaker B
Okay, well, I'm with you. I didn't love the first look. I feel like they should have started with a men's look.
Speaker A
So for me, the first, like, 14 looks, which, let me just say, there are 75 looks in this collection. Too many looks. So the first fourth, I did not enjoy. But after, like, once we started getting into the 15th look, I started to get what he was trying to do, and I started to like it more because he is going back to a very Johnny Versace 80s early 90s color palette. So, like, there was one look that was this, you know, highlighter yellow denim jacket over a kind of rockabilly style suit. And once we started getting into those looks, and certainly in the back half of the collection, where it was Dario Vitale's interpretation of, like, the trompe l' oeil Versace prints, I was like, okay, now we're cooking.
Speaker B
See, as someone that's recently been to south beach and made it my entire personality, I loved the first section of the show. I get what you're saying, because it is, like, those color combinations are very jarring and, like, pretty ugly. And it's interesting because I feel like Versace is a brand that is never, like, deliberately leaned into ugliness in the way that, say, Prada has. They're never like, oh, I'm picking this print because it's disgusting. But I do think there is a level of, like, this man going back into the archives, seeing these clothes being like, this is disgusting, and this is, like, what we need to put on the Runway now because it's fab, and no one else would have the balls to put this on the Runway now.
Speaker A
Well, in an interview with Women's Wear Daily, Daria Vitaly said, I've never really been interested in fantasy. I'm much more interested in reality, which is interesting, because a lot of this collection looks like costume.
Speaker B
I don't know I can imagine people wearing this stuff, though, because it's much less formal than what we've seen from Versace. There were no gowns in this collection. It's courting the consumer. Specifically, like the gay male consumer that has been shopping at Miu Miu has been shopping at Bottega Veneta or perhaps J.W. anderson. But, yeah, it's definitely a huge pivot away from the current Versace customer, which is a woman that wants to look hot and fuckable. We did not get a lot of hot and fluckable in this collection. And, yeah, it's courting a different kind of gay male consumer, and it's courting.
Speaker A
A different kind of female consumer. Again, Daria Vitale comes from Miu Miu. There is in the styling, and again, particularly in the styling of those trompe l' oeil pieces, there are a lot of wearable, sellable pieces. Once you kind of decouple them from all of the different things they're layered over, that I think will sell really well. And, as we predicted, is trying to bring a newer, more Miu Miu, cooler girl consumer to Versace that I don't think was previously there.
Speaker B
Yeah. And I think for the average person, it's kind of impossible to buy into Versace unless you're like a rich, cheesy Italian person.
Speaker A
That's true. I mean, it's definitely more casual. He said in this interview as well that this was the statement he wanted to make. Something that was very casual. I wanted to start with something that was closer to people and relevant.
Speaker B
Well, I also think that the styling was really good. The thing is, with this show versus other Versace shows in the past, when Donatella has referenced the Gianni era, it's been like she's focused on one thing, whereas this was kind of like a jumble of a lot of different styles and ideas that he had sort of thrown together in the way that, you know, a person might haphazardly put together in an outfit, which I think was cool. It just felt a little less polished and predetermined, which actually, I think is a good thing. Also, another thing I enjoy about the new Versace is that to invoke Patti LuPone on, and just like that, they've hired some of the queer masters of our time to create the campaign imagery. Jack Pearson shot the initial campaign images that we saw, which were so cool. And then they hired Bruce Le Bruce to make some sort of short film that hasn't come out yet.
Speaker A
If that were 30 minutes, would you be okay with it.
Speaker B
I'm sure it's going to be fab. Look, when it comes out, I'll watch it, we can talk about it. But he's someone who makes films that are so sexually transgressive, and I'm glad that he's getting that corporate check for once in his life.
Speaker A
Yeah. I think the overarching message of Daria Vitale's Versace is make Versace gay again. It got too het with Donatella. And also people bitching about this collection. I think conveniently forget that Donatella's last collection, which we spoke about, was a mess.
Speaker B
Yeah. I wasn't into. Was ugly in like a unintentional way, I think. But, you know, to each their own. I'm sure there are people that loved it. I just think that this recalibration of the brand is exactly what it needed. We needed to move beyond someone in the family designing these clothes.
Speaker A
Well, you're biased because you are Johnny Versace. South beach pilled.
Speaker B
That's true. But also, I just respect the fact that he didn't play it safe. He made something that I'm sure knew would be controversial, that would ruffle a lot of feathers and it wouldn't be a seamless transition from one creative director to the next in the way that the Demna Gucci collection is respect. I can't wait to see what else he does. Moving on to another fab collection. A fabulous debut we got Simone Bilotti's first show for Jill Sander.
Speaker A
Thought this was a female designer. Was unaware until I was researching this. This is a male designer.
Speaker B
We can't have female designers at J. Sander. That would be crazy. But you know what? Who cares? As long as they're good designers. That's what I care about. And I feel like this is exactly what Jill Sanders should be right now. I feel like he gets what was good about her brand. What's missing in the market. Currently seeing Guinevere van Cenas open the show honestly made me emotional because I remember I had those old Jill Sander ads with her in them tacked up on my bedroom wall when I was in high school. Like, that was such a like for me, just like such important moment in fashion. And I thought that he really just came correct with this collection.
Speaker A
Yeah. I think he balanced the brand ethos, the core identity of Jill Sander and making it very modern and today. Which is interesting because Jill Sander was always so obviously minimalist, but also the design was so forward thinking.
Speaker B
Yeah. And I like how the silhouette doesn't feel like what we're getting from every other sort of tasteful minimalist designer. It feels really fresh, like these boxy little suits. And I loved those blazers and those jackets where they were sort of bunched up in the midsection, almost like as if the suit was sort of like too tight in other places. But it was, like, perfectly tailored. It was gorgeous.
Speaker A
And the layering in the middle part of the collection of the dresses and the skirts that almost look like ruching, but it was kind of fabric layered over each other.
Speaker B
Also, like, there's a lot of looks where it was sort of like a tight cropped sweater layered over a longer sweater. I don't know if that was, like, one piece or if that was just styling, but I wish I was tall and thin enough and flat chested enough to do that, you know, because I would.
Speaker A
I was gonna say Chelsea. Seems like we need to get invited to these shows to be able to see these pieces in person.
Speaker B
Buongiorno.
Speaker A
Ciao. Can you imagine you and I riding on a Vespa? I'm riding the Vespa. You're on the back. We're just ciao.
Speaker B
Hopefully in full Jill Sander looks. That would be so fab. Yeah. This to me, between this and Versace, I feel very encouraged about Milan and excited. Both of these guys really have something to add, and I feel like both of these guys are so talented and cool and get it. Yeah, it sparks joy. It does. Also another thing that sparks joy, seeing all of these sort of alternative, early aughts models back on the Runway. Not that Guinevere Van Cenas, like, she's obviously classically beautiful, but she was kind of lumped in with that category of models that were a bit weirder. Like Aaron o' Connor and Maggie Riser, who we saw modeling at Prada, the.
Speaker A
Sort of grunge era, quote unquote, normal looking models that I don't know if.
Speaker B
They were normal looking. There was something weird about them. Especially, like, Maggie Reiser. She was so genius because she was so, like, on one hand, she had this sort of like, corn fed quality and like the kind of girl that would look normal in, like, something preppy like Ralph Lauren or Tommy Hilfiger or something like that. But she also just looked so weird when she was modeling for other designers, you know, and it was so nice to see her in Prada because she hasn't modeled for years. She became a real estate agent.
Speaker A
No.
Speaker B
Yeah, she became a very successful real estate agent. She retired from modeling. Unlike a lot of These girls and has only now, I believe, joined IMG and started to model again. And when I saw her in the Prada show, I was more just shocked that Phoebe Filo or someone hadn't gotten to her sooner because I feel like her face, especially as she's aged, it's just unbelievably glamorous. Also, I think Tasha Tilburg was in some shows at New York Fashion Week that was cool. Like, I love all of those girls to death. They were kind of like a little bit post Kate Moss, pre Giselle.
Speaker A
I think by normal, I just meant girls who did not have an intention of being a model or maybe street cast or cast by a photographer, came from British underground magazines like the Face or something or id.
Speaker B
Yeah, they weren't cast because they had like traditional sex appeal or like model sex appeal or like a bombshell quality, which is obviously why we fucked with them. Moving on. Bottega Veneta also has a new creative director, Louise Trotter.
Speaker A
Actually a woman.
Speaker B
Actually a woman. What did we think or what did you think?
Speaker A
I thought it was incredible.
Speaker B
I thought it was good, but I wasn't blown away.
Speaker A
Interesting. Because you felt like it was too close to Mathieu Blasey's work?
Speaker B
No, actually, I don't feel like it was that close. I think it was strong. And I do think that any designer that comes into a big luxury house should have time to sort of evolve their vision. And I think this was very strong. And I think these clothes were very beautiful, for sure. But I think Louise Trotter's biggest hindrance is that she was coming into a situation that wasn't a dumpster fire to begin with, which is what happened basically with Versace and with Gucci. The previous designer was so good that they were poached by Chanel. So she's coming into that. I think from a craftsmanship standpoint, I think Bottega is kind of a leader, kind of unparalleled. But I think I liked sort of the color palette and the sort of idiosyncratic qualities that Michieu brought to Bottega that I feel like were dialed down a bit with this show.
Speaker A
I think that she played up a lot of textures. There were those pieces that I was looking online seemed to be made out of recycled polyester, which is those shiny kind of Muppet looking sweaters and dresses.
Speaker B
Right, like the fiber optic. Yeah, I loved that stuff. It was gorgeous.
Speaker A
So I think those were strong. I see your point that the core identity that certainly Daniel Lee and then Matthew Blasey created with Bottega Veneta, she wasn't going in a different direction. I think she was just building on the strength of the previous two creative directors.
Speaker B
I don't know. I think she made it actually a little bit more like it was before them. A little bit in terms of, like, the color palette and the like. And I like the silhouette. Like, I think a lot of people's criticism of the show was that it was kind of. It was all big and oversized and clunky, and, like, those are all things that I love. So I don't give a shit about that. Like, I would love to wear this stuff. But, yeah, I also loved, like, in this show, there was these sort of stiff, utilitarian work shirts. We also saw a bit of that in Prada. And, you know, ladies, we can get the look for less. We just need to start buying shirts from, like, workwear labels like Carhartt and Ben Davis. You know, maybe getting it tailored a.
Speaker A
Little bit, getting a size 2 XL Ben Davis, but then also just bringing it to a tailor, maybe bringing it in a little bit on the sides.
Speaker B
Or probably more bringing it up.
Speaker A
Or should I wear it Carrie Bradshaw style with a little belt?
Speaker B
There are no rules.
Speaker A
I thought it was a strong debut. It'll sell very well. I mean, this is a socioeconomic bracket. I can only imagine. Like, I can't imagine how expensive all of this stuff is. Yeah.
Speaker B
And, like, most of it isn't real clothes. Like, at best, there will be, like, three of these pieces at the store that are, like, you know, like the. And by that, I mean, like, the trench coats and, like, the really intense, like, leather. Ready to wear.
Speaker A
Yeah. If we're lucky, this will show up in an editorial or two.
Speaker B
But with Bottega, it's, like, always about selling the bags. And I do think that this does a good job of selling the bags.
Speaker A
And I. Ever since I was a little girl, I've always been a fan of a furry bag. The faker. The more muppety, the better. So I fell in love with that.
Speaker B
So I also. I don't actually want to talk about the Dolce show because why. I do want to talk about the fact that it was completely upstaged by Meryl Streep coming in character with Stanley Tucci. With Stanley Tucci as Miranda Priestly. I saw this and I was like, of course, Dolce is, like, the only show that would let them do this. And I get it because, like, I think normally other brands might be more receptive, but this year, just because it's these big debuts from, like, all these new designers. Like, no one would want Meryl Streep to upstage that.
Speaker A
Pull focus. I had the same thought as well, although there's still a few days left in Paris Fashion Week. But I agree with you. Dolce and Gabbana would be the only brand that would allow this to happen at their fashion show. And it's funny you say that, because I'm like, oh, I don't even remember seeing a single look from the Dolce and Gabbana fashion show. All I've seen is the footage of them in the front row.
Speaker B
Oh, the show is, like, rhinestone encrusted pajamas. But that's so smart of Dolce because it's like they still got as much attention as a lot of these other brands solely because of Meryl Streep. And why not?
Speaker A
Did you see the clip on the Vogue Instagram of Anna Wintour talking to Meryl Streep? Meryl Streep in her Miranda Priestly wig, but seemingly out of character, saying to Anna Wintour, this was her first ever fashion show.
Speaker B
Wait, really? Okay, that's insane. No, surely she's been to, like, a Donna Karan show back in the day or something.
Speaker A
I don't know. It feels like the era where celebrities would be in the front row fashion shows is kind of beyond Meryl Streep.
Speaker B
I don't know, though. I feel like she's the kind of girl that would be, like, at a Ralph Lauren show or something. I'm not saying she's going to Paris. I'm saying she might just be going to Madison Avenue at some point. Some point. Maybe this was her first fashion show.
Speaker A
I was thinking about, you know, a couple episodes ago, we talked about Robert Altman's Pred A Porte. I was thinking about other instances where films have filmed at legit fashion shows. And it reminded me of the Zoolander 2 shooting at the Valentino show a couple years ago.
Speaker B
Yeah, that was so good.
Speaker A
But I didn't see the film. Did you?
Speaker B
You didn't see Zoolander 2?
Speaker A
I didn't.
Speaker B
That's crazy. It wasn't good. But, like, you should see it.
Speaker A
I know the answer to this one, even though I'm about to ask this, but, like, Devil wears Prada 2 is so overexposed at this point. What is there left to see? I asked this knowing, like, we are going to see it in theaters, but it does feel like I've seen a lot of the movie already, and that's fine.
Speaker B
The same was True of Barbie. And we still enjoy that, you know, when push came to shove.
Speaker A
Although these are probably all of the paparazzi shots and certainly the Dolce and Gabbana fashion show, I'm sure it's part of a much larger montage. Like, this was probably 5 seconds of the film.
Speaker B
Well, I think it's cool that they shot on location, and I hope that someone in Paris will also let Miranda Priestly attend their fashion show.
Speaker A
Eli Saab's like, you can shoot at our Runway show. And they're like, we're good. It's okay.
Speaker B
Rude.
Speaker A
All right, that does it for Milan Fashion Week. I actually have to go, which is unfortunate because you are about to interview friend of the show, Maritza Meltzer about her new book. I'm sorry I can't stay for that, but I can't wait to listen to what you guys talk about.
Speaker B
You will be missed until next week.
Speaker A
All right, bye, guys.
Speaker B
Guys, today we have a very special guest who is no stranger to the Every Outfit podcast. She is here to. To talk about her new book, It Girl the Life and Legacy of Jane Birkin. Welcome back, Marissa Meltzer.
Speaker C
Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.
Speaker B
So I was curious, how did Jane Birkin first enter into your life, and did you ever have a phase where you tried to dress like her?
Speaker C
That, actually, I never did. I think probably because I have curly hair and bangs, we're just, like, never going to work for me. And we have such different body types, so I was never, like, a super mod girl in that way. But I did get into her in that era because I was in college and I had, you know, a boyfriend that was really into music, so I learned about Serge Gainsbourg through him. And then, you know, I was watching movies like Blow up and La Piscine and all of those things. So I had this, like, understanding of who she was, and I knew she was the namesake later of the Birkin, but once she died, I kind of realized I just knew just enough about her to know that her life was fascinating, but also enough to know that there was, like, a lot for me to learn and therefore process and explain to the world.
Speaker B
Yeah. When I was reading your book, it occurred to me that she's someone that a lot of people know a little bit about, and it's not necessarily the same things. And I think a lot of Americans, I think we primarily think of her as, like, a. As a style icon, maybe before an actress or a singer. And also, I think a lot of Americans do legitimately Think that she's French. Can you debunk this myth?
Speaker C
He is not French. In fact, the first subtitle of my book was like the ultimate French Girl. Kind of as a joke or like a kind of thing about her style, I guess. And people kept dming me and saying, well, you know, she's not French. And it's like, yeah, no, I wrote 300 pages. I. I did understand that she was born and raised in London and she moved to France when she was 21 and never moved back. And almost all of her films are in French. So you know, not to. I don't mean to be too much of a bitch. Like it's very easy to understand why someone would think that she's French. But she was very much a part of that kind of like youthquake swinging 60s era. Her mom was one of Noel Coward's muses in like as a stage actress. So. And her dad, her dad's sort of family owned a lace company, so they were very British. But. But yeah, she left for a role in a movie called slogan in 19 in May 1968, quite the time in French history, and fell in love with her co star and stayed there.
Speaker B
I'm curious, do you find Serge Gainsbourg hot at all? Or did the research like for this book turn you off from him forever? Like, tell me about that.
Speaker C
I want to know what you think because I'm always interested in your. The men that you're attracted to. Like your Tom Selleck thing fascinates me.
Speaker B
I think Serge Gainsbourg is disgusting, personally. Like, I kind, I kind of get it and I respect his artistry, of course. Like, that makes him hot. And obviously the fact that he pulls all of these like incredibly hot chicks.
Speaker C
You would love his house. The house, his house that they lived in together is now kind of a new museum in Paris. And the house is very. I'm not saying it's very you. I don't think that you and Tat would have black walls. But I famously have very strange taste in men that are sort of all over the place. I definitely find him sexy. I don't necessarily that I think that he's hot, but he's. He is kind of my type. Like I'm not into pretty boys that much. And he seems like he fucks if I'm, you know, being honest. But I can't get over what I imagine to be the smell because he smoked five packs of unfiltered cigarettes a day. And he was really devoted to the bidet, but would only take a bath like every three months. And so I just don't know what the hair smelled like. I mean, you've heard me and Tat talking about our devotion to just like shower plus, like, you know, what witch hazel wipes. I like to be clean, I like to smell good. And I date straight men. They're not necessarily the most hygienic people in the world, but so I think I have kind of like a long leash of what I considered acceptable, but it's just hard for me to imagine. And then, you know, and he was a brute in this way that I kind of always knew about. Like, he kind of lived to shock people and seemed to kind of get off on that, but he was kind of more than that. I think that, you know, there was violence in the relationship. Jane Birkin sort of wouldn't call it abuse or, you know, domestic violence, but there was definitely hitting and slapping and a lot of drama and a lot of, you know, threatening to kill themselves on both sides. Like, I am not a person that does dramatic relationships well and it was hard not and on. Not to say on every page just like how horny and dramatic they were. I define it and in some ways I admire it because it's so not me. But I also think it's. It's probably pretty. Not a great way to live. And I don't think he was always the best partner, but I think she wasn't always the best partner either.
Speaker B
You talk in this book about how Jane's artistic achievements were so often overshadowed by her relationship and her beauty and her style, icon status and all of that stuff. I'm curious as someone that just did a lot of research for this book, like, what do you think her best movies, like songs, albums, like, where would you recommend that a Jane Birkin novice starts for someone that isn't so familiar with her body of work?
Speaker C
Oh, that's fun. She did two Agatha Christie movies in the late 70s, which is some of the only kind of like English language stuff she did. And they're those late 70s when she's in Death in the Nile, like Maggie Smith is in them and Mia Farrow, all kinds of famous people from that era. And they're good and they're kind of like very camp. And they were filmed on location at like the pyramid, so they're beautiful. I think La Piscine is probably my favorite of her movies. It's just like how I would like to live my minus kind of death, but like how I'd like to live my life. Like just hanging out in A villa outside of Saint Tropez and just like swimming and making out and having like jam and toast all the time.
Speaker B
Yeah, that one I actually have seen.
Speaker C
Yeah, it's a lot of like their biggest activity of the day is like going to town and buying groceries. That's the lifestyle that I want. But again, if things do get dark, you know, there's a little scene, kind of minor Merchant Ivory film she made in late 90s or the aughts called A Soldier's Daughter Never Cries starring Lily Sobieski. And it's about this family that lives in Paris and then moves back to Texas. And Jane Birkin plays the very eccentric British mother of her, like gay, French, English kind of best friend.
Speaker B
That sounds fab.
Speaker C
Yeah, yeah. And it takes place in, I want to say late 70s or something like that. So that one is cool. And. And then obviously the documentaries. Agnes Varda did an incredible documentary on her called Jane B by Agnes v about turning 40. And then her daughter Charlotte did Jane by Charlotte right before she died. I think it came out in maybe like 20, 21 or something like that.
Speaker B
Do you think the Charlotte Gainsbourg one is good though, or are you just into it because there's a scene where they go to a shopping for bulldogs?
Speaker C
No, I knew that. I knew you were gonna say that. I mean, the bulldog scene really did get me. I'm not gonna lie. As always, I like to remind everyone that both Chelsea and I are not only friends, but we're fellow English bulldog owners. I brought mine off at dog camp this morning. Yeah, no, that scene was absolutely the highlight for me. I don'. It's a good documentary, but I think it's trying to do something interesting. And the fact that it's kind of some of the last public footage and recordings of her singing her songs before she died feels important to me. I think it's worth watching, you know, as a. As a fan.
Speaker B
So we have to get into the bag. Another thing that is overshadowed this woman to some extent book is about.
Speaker C
It's about when things overshadow you and then trying to actually talk about who the woman is. But yes. Would you want a Birkin bag?
Speaker B
It's not me. I don't know. Unless it's the original Jane Birkin one with the Free Tibet stickers. Like, I just don't. I can't imagine how that would factor into my life.
Speaker C
I do think of you as very.
Speaker B
Free to bed, but you're Hermes girl.
Speaker C
I am an Hermes girl. I would love a Birkin, but not like hot Pink. I would want a old black one. Or my ideal would be like a really dark green.
Speaker B
Yeah, that would be fab. See, I knew the lore of the Birkin and, and how it was developed. It was inspired by Jane. And because Jane was carrying, frankly, a basket purse full of garbage all around the world. And finally someone was like, bitch. Like, this is disgusting. You need like a real bag. I did not realize that she was involved, like in the design process so much. Can you talk about that a little bit?
Speaker C
Yeah. I mean, part of the lore of the Birkin is that it's this kind of like rom com meet cute story in that Jane Birkin was on an Air France flight from London to Paris. And yeah, she literally carried baskets as bags since she was a teenager. And they were. She was the kind of girl, very it girl behavior where it's like, there's a planner, there's a Dostoevsky novel, there are cigarettes, there's loose change in cash. You know, like the time she had a baby, there were diapers. And I think even worse this time, the basket was falling apart because in a fight, her boyfriend at the time had like, run it over in his car or like tried to break it or something. Very dramatic. So they started kind of drawing what her ideal bag would be and was on an airsick bag because they were on a plane. And she was actually really good at drawing her diaries and kind of, you know, some of her interviews and stuff. She would like, accompany little drawings. They're very cute. And so I imagine she was probably good at drawing like a bag prototype. And it was based a little bit on the hack bag, which is like a huge saddle bag that from Hermes, that Serge Gainsbourg would carry kind of as like a luggage bag. So it was sort of like her idea of a kind of unisex tote bag. And then it became, you know, the most famous thing of all time.
Speaker B
In your research, did you ever find out, like, what Jane Birkin thought about the Birkin episode of Sex and the City? Or was that even on her radar?
Speaker C
I don't think it was on her radar. I. I tried because I. It was such an early sort of Birkin moment that I think really solidified it because before that. But Carolyn Bessette Kennedy carried one. And that was kind of the first non. Sort of like rich person socialite, like more someone who had crossed over into mainstream that you saw with them. So I don't know. I mean, one thing about Jane Birkin is that when she moved to France, even though she went back to England and toured in America. Her life was very French. Like French designers, French media, acting in French. I don't know that she saw Sex in the City. I hope so, but I don't know. I think she would have been a Miranda Carrie combo, but maybe a carrot.
Speaker B
No, that checks out. So while I have you, I want to talk about some other it girl news. And I wanted to start with your recent profile of Sofia Coppola and Marc Jacobs for the New York Times.
Speaker C
What was that like?
Speaker B
Because if I was a journalist, these would be my dream subjects.
Speaker C
Yeah, I mean, it kind of is a dream. I mean, in some ways, my. As I've been a journalist, I'm more and more interested in profiling people who are just like talkers who will say stuff. Because you could interview someone who's so fascinating, like the Olsen twins or something like that to me, but I don't know they're gonna say anything, and then it's ultimately not that satisfying. But, you know, Marc Jacobs is such a talker, and together they have such this kind of like, endearing and electric chemistry. So it was very easy. I kind of just sat there and guided the conversation and let it rip. And we talked for way longer than we had. And then it was after the premiere of a Mark by Sophia documentary. And then afterwards, there was a party at Dionne von Furstenberg's palazzo. So it was quite a day for girls of all ages. They were lovely. I mean, it's strange because I think I kind of dissociate or I'm able to kind of put myself aside. But even just watching the documentary and talking to them, I. I know how much of my own life is. Was influenced by them. I can remember the first pair of Marc Jacobs shoes I bought around probably 2000, wearing ex girl and Milk Fed and, you know, seeing the Sofia Coppola movies when they came out. And, you know, those people are so important to who I am and how I've shaped the world even before I knew it. I mean, life Without Zoe, which is a movie that her dad did in New York, Story, is a short movie that she styled. And it's all of these, like, 1112 year old girls in Manhattan who were wearing chanel, like late 80s stuff. It's like the peak. And I think that I decided was the height of what's cool. And honestly, I still kind of dress like that or aspire to that life. Every year I get closer to it.
Speaker B
Well, yeah, I wanted to talk about this new Chanel couture book that Sophia Coppola edited with you because you are one of the few Chanel girls in my life. I just got it this week. I am truly stunned by this book.
Speaker C
I have it too. I have it right in front of me. It's really beautiful.
Speaker B
It's not cheap. It's $120. But it is, like, the most expensive book that you can get for $120.
Speaker C
The thing with Sofia Coppola is just her taste level never fails. It's just, you know, she's really good at mood boards and, you know, combining the photos. Like, there's an incredible photo of just front row at a Chanel show, and it's like Barbra Streisand in leopard with a matching leopard hat. And I think Diana Rigg might be in there. And then it's sort of other people in more traditional Chanel skirt suits. And then the next page will be someone from, like, 1988. It's so good. And it's also fun to see, like, some of the things like the slingbacks that I. In the ballet flats that I own and wear and love, you know, that. That are still kind of going strong. I don't know. It's. It's beautiful. It's expensive. But if you're going to buy a coffee table book, I feel like it's a pretty good one.
Speaker B
Yeah, I have a lot of Chanel books, and this one is just really, really good. That photo of, like, Tina Chow and Karl Lagerfeld in France. Leibovitz in a tuxedo.
Speaker C
I know. I know Tina Chow, like, probably my number one Chanel client in terms of the way that she wore it and style it. I love those simple, long Chanel dresses with, like, the piles of jewelry. It's just so cool looking. And I guess we should say this one is specifically about couture. It's not necessarily the Runway shows, even though those are great. It's about the couture ones. And so you really see, like, the details. The audience, the bouffants, the clientele, the screens. It's great. I love it.
Speaker B
Yeah, I think it's worth buying for that one Runway photo of. I think it's Ines de la Fressage in that, like, pink taffeta ensemble with, like, a feathered, like, Pierrot type collar. It's just so, so fab.
Speaker C
I know that. I mean, that's very. I. I am so Pierrot in my. At least in my head, that. Yeah, it just so appeals to me. And, you know, Jane Birkin. I always wanted to see Some photo of her pop up in Chanel, but she was not really a Chanel girl. I spent a lot of time going to as many fashion archives as I could in Paris, and one was the Alaia archives. And she didn't really wear Alaia either. But The Alaia was. Mr. Alaia was like a big collector of other designers. So he had Chanel couture from like the 60s and stuff like that. It was cool. Some of this era was cool to see in person.
Speaker B
I also love that we got this bit of it girl lore in the forward of this book where Sofia Coppola talks about the fact that she only got that Chanel internship when she was 15. Because Carol Bouquet, the actress and model who played Petrovsky's ex wife on Sex.
Speaker C
In the City, I know at the restaurant on top of the Pompadou.
Speaker B
Oh Kong is what it's called.
Speaker C
She currently while they undergo renovation. But I can't wait for it to reopen.
Speaker B
I love that this woman is the reason why Sofia Coppola got that internship. It's just. It's so good.
Speaker C
So good. It's. It all makes sense. I mean, Sophia Coppola is one of those IT girls who has truly endured. You know, like, she's kind of beat the Nepo baby allegations by, you know, proving her own sort of talent and vision, but then also just feeling relevant. She was relevant in the 90s and she still feels relevant now. It's. I'm always impressed by her and she seems like she's happy. She has like a nice husband and you know, lives in the West Village. Like, I. I'll take it.
Speaker B
Yeah, her life seems fab. Also. She is someone that was very much inspired by Jane Birkin's fashion sense, for sure. Cause I feel like when I was like a teenager, I don't think I knew who Jane Birkin was until I was maybe in my late teens or like when I first got to college. I had seen her style trickle down via Sofia Coppola and Kate Moss and even someone like Kim Gordon, who I also feel like, like was looking to Jane in a really major way. Yeah.
Speaker C
If you look at some of those kind of like triangle shaped dresses. What is the name for that? A line. A line. Yeah, I guess like the A line ex girl dresses and little T shirts and stuff like that is very Jane Birkin and the kind of like baby doll miniskirt look. Always wearing flats. Yeah, that's very much a version of. Of her.
Speaker B
So something else related to Sofia Coppola that has happened recently is this Manolo Blahnik Marie Antoinette collab. It was released in conjunction with this exhibition that I think the VNA did about Marie Antoinette. Is that what it is?
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker C
I'm thinking of going to London for a long weekend just to see it. I love the 18th century.
Speaker B
Yeah, it looks amazing. But Manolo Blahnik released this capsule collection. It was kind of based on the designs that he did for Sofia Coppola's film Marie Antoinette.
Speaker C
Yeah, it's cool. I would buy them, except I already look so sort of naturally of another century and already have, like, my. My joke at every museum is like, how I just look like every man and woman in a powdered wig. So I just think I. A little too costume drama in them, but I like them. I just think. I think they'd be better on someone else. I think I have to keep it a little more modern or sleek or I look like I'm doing some kind of strange cosplay of a Venetian ball or something like that.
Speaker B
Yeah, for me, too. They're way too girly. Like, I feel like that's a little bit at odds with my gender. But, like, at the same time, I walked by the Manolo Blahnik store in Miami and I saw them in the window before I even saw them online. And I was like, this is the most stunning shoe I have ever seen in my life. Like, I love that it's. There's so much drama. And I love that they went so hard with them.
Speaker C
Yeah, they did. The heel is good. I think I'm not the kind of person who buys things just to kind of have an archive or collect, but they'd be perfect for that because they are so cool to look at. I think that they'd be great on someone, but it's neither one of us. They make me feel gender euphoria, but for someone else.
Speaker B
Yeah. I mean, they're shoes for Sarah Jessica Parker and Chapel Roan.
Speaker C
Really? Yeah. Like. Or like someone who used to be the Molly Goddard client and is like, wearing Simone Rocha or something like that.
Speaker B
Yeah. And I support that woman.
Speaker C
I love that woman. It's just.
Speaker A
Just.
Speaker C
Yeah, that woman isn't me. But that's also part of loving fashion, is loving things that you aren't necessarily going to wear, which I always say good to. Because I already buy and consume far too much. I'm. I welcome anything I don't want to buy. I like. What, you know, if Machu Blasis Chanel is not suited to me. Good.
Speaker B
Yeah. I hope it's not suited to me. Otherwise I'm going to kill myself.
Speaker C
I actually think it might and it's going to be a problem for. For you. I bought an Alaia sweater. I was in Paris a month ago on my way to Venice to interview Sophia and Mark, which is such a pretentious sentence, but whatever. I went to the Alias store and bought a sweater and I might go back and get one. And I know it's getting problematic because my sales girl asked me what hotel I was staying at is presumably to send me like cookies or flowers or something. And I was like, oh, I'm in too deep.
Speaker B
I love that. Where the alia to our talk, which we should be plugging right about now.
Speaker C
Yes, Plug it at the top and we'll plug it now. So it's on Saturday, October 11, in downtown LA and it's to celebrate it, girl. And I'm in conversation with you and it's gonna be hard because all I want to do is just sort of rehash Miami or like things like that I want to buy or things that you want to buy. But we'll keep it on topic. But you know, I like, I like a loose conversation.
Speaker B
But yeah, we'll try to talk about Jane Birkin at least a little bit.
Speaker C
But it girl, dumb is a topic so close to both of our hearts that it's easy to kind of to cover. But I think the book is. Is good. I worked really hard on it and I think that there is a lot of to think about just because she was like dealing with a lot of stuff we all deal with now of just like what happens when your image is kind of divorced from you and people only see, see the highlight reels of your life and all these things that like normal people are dealing with on social media. She had to process, you know, decades before. So, yeah, I don't know. I think there's a lot to learn and she's fascinating.
Speaker B
She's fascinating. The book is fascinating. Congratulations, Marissa, and thank you for joining me once again.
Speaker C
Always happy to be here. Maybe Lauren will get pregnant again and I can.
Speaker B
We'll see. I'll ask her.
Speaker C
I'm like the present, you know.
Speaker B
All right, well, I love you, honey. So good talking to you as always.
Speaker C
And my love to tat.
Speaker B
I will. And to everyone else listening, Lauren and I will be back next week to talk about the new Taylor Swift album, Paris Fashion Week and everything else. Bye, guys. Bye, everyone.
Speaker C
Goodbye. Goodbye.
Speaker B
Au revoir.
Speaker C
Sorry. I'll do this all day. I can get real. Study abroad, girl.