Culture
The Art of Flirting with Flirtation Expert Nadege
In this episode of the Sex Talk Cafe, host Susan Morgan Taylor welcomes flirtation expert Nadege to explore the art of flirting and its significance in building confidence and connection. They discuss...
The Art of Flirting with Flirtation Expert Nadege
Culture •
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Interactive Transcript
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Welcome to the Sex Talk Cafe, where the mission is to normalize the conversation on sexuality,
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while providing you with a real education on sex and to misand relationships.
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You know, the one you never got in school from your parents, friends, or the internet.
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I'm your host, Susan Morgan Taylor.
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Let's get down to it.
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Welcome to the Sex Talk Cafe.
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Hello everybody and welcome back to the Sex Talk Cafe.
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I am very excited to introduce my guest today.
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Nadej is a sex scholar and best-selling author making sexual empowerment your new normal.
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She's the founder of Pleasure Science, where she teaches you how to kiss, shame, goodbye,
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make healing your friend, and create a love life that makes you feel alive and confident.
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On an average day, you'll find Nadej in her home office, hair, and a power ponytail,
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using her nerd powers for good.
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Join the Pleasure Revolution with Nadej over at her Pleasure Science podcast on YouTube.
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Nadej, welcome to the Sex Talk Cafe.
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Hello, I, the favorite cafe ever.
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Can I just say I haven't even ordered coffee yet?
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Hey, well we're just getting started.
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We got a lot more than coffee here at this cafe.
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Our topic today and why I think this is going to be just an awesome episode for our listeners
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is because we're talking about flirting.
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The art of flirting and oh my gosh, what a great topic because I hear so many people who
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are like, I can't flirt.
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I don't know how to flirt or I'm, I've been married for 20 years.
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Why would I want to learn how to flirt?
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And so I think that this is such an important thing because flirting is really,
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there's really an art to it.
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And so I love that you're going to share your nerd wisdom on this topic for us today.
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But I think first of you, really awesome for our listeners to hear a little bit from you.
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I know I read a very short bio there on you, but maybe we could just start with a little bit about you.
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How we find you where you are today and then specifically around flirting, like why are you,
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like the go-to woman for this topic?
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Yeah, absolutely.
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Well, a little bit about me, so everyone is always like, what is a sex scholar or like, how did you,
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like, what is that story?
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And I was always the person growing up in my friend group that everyone would talk to about sex
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or I would ask questions or I would be, I just had no shame around this topic.
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And I, from a very young age and I'm talking like 11, 12, 13, would,
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curious about this in a way that I think was very open-hearted and open-minded and that was abnormal.
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In the sense that I was the only person people knew where it was like, oh, I could talk to
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Nadezh about that. And like, she won't be judgmental. And when I was like growing up, like I said,
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like I was very young, I would go to the public library and I would rent books on puberty.
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I like wanted to know what was going on with my body. I was very curious.
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And I was also a very talkative, very social person. So thinking of flirting and why I'm so
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passionate about that topic now, I think it's because in a sense, I have always been so connected
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to people. I love friendship. I love community. And so I became not just a nerd about sex,
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but a nerd about social behavior and connection. And I was also really awkward as a kid.
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So I definitely don't want anyone listening to think like, oh, how lucky she was so charming.
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I was very, like, very loud and I would teachers would get annoyed with me. I was like the class clown.
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And so as I got older when I went into high school, I was still super curious about sex. I went
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to a Catholic high school. I was taught by nuns. Oh my gosh. Yeah. And I grew up in Los Angeles,
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which is like not known for sending kids to a Catholic school. Right. Yeah. I'm from the Midwest
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where everybody goes to Catholic school. Luckily, I taught at school. So I was like one of the few
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who was in a very liberal city and yet in very conservative situations. But I think that's what
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gave me this super power for really being curious about this topic, but being loving about sex
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at the same time. And so when I got to university, I actually originally wanted to just write stories
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about like dragons and witches. And I still write those on the side like those are for me. They're
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my pleasure. But when I got to UC Berkeley, I realized I could study sex and I realized I really wanted
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to. At that time, I wasn't having orgasms. I was always in a relationship with the same type of
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toxic person who didn't respect me, who treated me like I was expendable. In fact, when I was in
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college, the thing that kept happening to me was I would find out I'm the other woman. It didn't
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matter the gender. It didn't matter the age. I was always attracting the same situation. Sometimes
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I wouldn't even know I was the other woman. And so there was a lot of self esteem I needed to
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heal in myself. And then there was a lot of knowledge that I wanted to learn about sex. Like, why am I
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not having orgasms? Because there wasn't a medical reason that my doctor could figure out why. Like so
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many people, right? Right. And that's kind of how I became a sex scholar. That was 15 years ago,
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which is wild to even. That was 2012. So that was a while ago. And since then, obviously, over 15
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years have learned so much. But one of the key things that actually comes up again and again,
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and quite like you said, it doesn't matter if you're dating single or you've been with your partner
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for 20 years, it's this piece on flirting and on human connection. And funnily enough, when I
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healed my own ability to orgasm, that really started with self esteem speaking up and flirting.
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Like learning how to be socially secure, using my natural strengths. And so, so anyway, so yes,
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that's how we kind of got to this place. And yeah, and now I'm a sex scholar author. You know,
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it's it's always so funny to like think about where you were. And then where you are now, like
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anyone listening, if you're like, I can't even imagine my next five steps forward into sexual
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empowerment. Like it's like you'll get there. You just have to do somewhere. Yeah, well, and I just
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as here in your story, we all needed an adage. Like when we were in high school, middle school,
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you know, like how cool would it have been if everyone had had a version of you to go to.
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Who do we ask these questions to? And you were actually curious about it. And interested in it.
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But at the same time, like you were not like sex was not an enjoyable activity for you.
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No. And that was what drove your desire to figure it out. Right? Like you were in enough pain,
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where you like, fuck this. Like I've got to figure I can relate to that. That's a lot of,
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you know, those of you who know my story, similar kind of thing. Like I just wanted something
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different. So bad. Yeah. And we, you know, when there's that kind of driver, it's like you're
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willing to do almost what does it take? What do I have to learn? What do I have to study? What do I have to do?
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I have to do any things. Yeah. Yeah. But it's interesting. So this, you know, I know we're going to talk
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about flirting here, but I think what's also so relevant is this part of the challenge you had with
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orgasm. And what you're saying is that your, your ability to flirt or learning how to flirt was
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somehow related to your overcoming that challenge. So maybe we can talk about that because that is a
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challenge a lot of women, more so, have out there. And I'd love to hear what your revolution was
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on that as you discovered your journey through that. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, it was confidence.
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So if you are flirting well, you're confident. You're not charming. You're not
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kidding it right every time. You're not always hearing the word yes. You're just confident. Right?
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And like, you know, even thinking about the science of flirting, if this, I find so fascinating
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and it always helps people when I explain this. And this was a huge like breakthrough for me in
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figuring out how to be confident because I'd say the two things I struggled with, I couldn't
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orgasm and I didn't feel cool. And so like flirting kind of helped with both of those. And
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actually feeling cool in the sense of like, I, it doesn't matter. Like, I don't need anyone to
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validate that externally now, but I did before. That was one of the reasons I couldn't orgasm.
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I've used sex as this transaction where if I give you my body, you'll give me affection or validation.
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Maybe it's love, but sometimes I didn't want love. Sometimes I just wanted the hottest person in
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the room to take me home because I just wanted to feel like I was hot. I was chosen. And so I'd give
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that person sex with no like, this is how you please me. This is what I like. Maybe I didn't even
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like that person like they opened up their mouth and were a total able, but they were physically
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attractive. I wanted to feel like I want you know, and that that was how I was approaching sex.
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And so part of not being able to orgasm was all of my priorities were how do I become cool and
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liked? Oh, sex is a pathway for that. And so much of the things that we see in the media
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validate that idea. And so I would be having sex. I wouldn't be talking about anything that I
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liked. I didn't even know how to do that at that time. And I was also very insecure. So not flirting
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or connecting in a way that was empowering for me. But using flirting as a transaction too,
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flirting was almost like the opener of the transaction. Well, the closer of the transaction.
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Right. But you must have been good at it because if you were getting like you were using it
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sort of as an ablation to like get this thing in order to validate yourself a steam.
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But however, it sounds like you were having some some success with that. So you must have
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already been good. Something you were doing was working. We're already good at flirting somehow.
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What if people were approaching people? Okay, like just walking up and like that's one of the
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word styles. Okay. So so a little psychology of flirting. Like I gave that back that a little bit
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of that context. So that way we can see why this one piece of the psychology of flirting was so
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empowering for me. And and I share it with people because people also find it empowering.
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Humans flirt for two different psychological reasons. We either flirt for connection or we
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flirt for entertainment. It's actually very normal for humans to just flirt with each other and
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not have any agenda behind it. You know, and so I'll talk to so many people and I'm sure you do
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too where it's like I was connecting with someone and they didn't get my number. What's wrong?
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Maybe they were flirting for entertainment. Like maybe they're partnered. Maybe they're not
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interested or do they drop the ball? But I'm fascinated about that one. And do you find I'm so
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curious about that one. Do you find there's a gender thing in that? Does it tend to be more dominant
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on like one? And if we're talking on the binary right now, I know there's lots of different ideas
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around gender out there. But I don't want to go down that rabbit hole today. But do you find that
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it tends to be more gendered? Like who flirts for entertainment more? I don't be still. I don't find
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I don't find that there's everybody flirts for entertainment at certain or another. I think
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any gender can be manipulative if we're looking at actual like studies that I've seen. Women cheat
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just as much as men. Women are just more strategic men. If we're talking about the
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other part, it's great men. They're more likely to get caught. Not you're not as smooth as you might
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think. But all the genders cheat, all the genders, flirt for entertainment. I would say what it
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actually comes down more so is personality types. And less about gender. We're so quick to say like
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men do this, women do this, queer people do this, trans people do this. No, you have your needs.
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Your needs are going to influence what your behavior is. And that's why you need to be
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generally aware of your sexual needs. Because your behavior is being influenced by needs that you have.
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And if you're not aware of them, then you know, you're going to be behaving in all of these ways. But
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I think we all do it. But it's about your personality type. So are some personality. And so what
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model are we using when we talk about personality type? Because there's a lot out there. I love the
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anyogram. That's one of my favorites. But there's a lot out there. One's out there. So when we say
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what personality types tend to flirt more than others, what are we talking about? What model are we using?
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For me, I would actually want to use the flirt styles in that sense. So every single,
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there's 10 different ways that humans flirt. These are called the flirt styles. And some
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flirt styles are more likely than others to flirt for entertainment. For example, my flirt style is
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the confident flirt style, which is the one that will approach anybody. It doesn't mean that you
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actually are confident. It doesn't mean that you actually are charming. It just means that you are
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bold. If you see it, you like it, you'll go and approach. And that was me very bold. Like you were
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saying earlier, well, it sounds like you got a lot of sex. It sounds like I did. It wasn't because
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I was charming. It was because I was bold. I had more numbers. So I would go out and I would go,
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I would literally go, I don't get man, woman, whatever, especially at that time period of my life.
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Like sure. Like teens early 20s where I was like, I, all my friends are having sex. They all say it's
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amazing. I'm not having a good time. I'm going to fix this by just trying to go out and meet and,
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you know, and so then when I, and I actually for anyone listening, you could go to PleasureScience.com
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slash flirt, take the flirt quiz to discover your flirt style. Yeah. But I was just going to say,
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you have a quiz on this. I want to take it on your website. For which I'm done the call that,
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oh, that sounds so cool. I know you have to take it. PleasureScience.com forward slash flirt.
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Is that it? Okay, yeah, everyone go there. Well, it will of course tell people at the end where to
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find you and all this cool stuff. But yeah, it looks so fun. I want to know what my flirt style is.
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Because I've got a lot of people this day like, I don't have a style. I've no game. You know, like,
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if anybody does, is that what you're saying? I mean, everyone thinks that. Let me tell you why.
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Yeah. Because of the 10 flirt styles, only two are ever shown in mainstream media. And that's the
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confident flirt going after the mysterious flirt. And I don't even need to tell you. You already know
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what I'm talking about, right? Like you didn't even take the flirt quiz. You don't know the flirt styles.
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You know what I'm talking about. Absolutely. That's how prevalent. And with flirting, just like sex,
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these are social behaviors. We learn them through watching others and talking to other people.
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So when we see in TV and media and even social media, the same trope where there's someone who's
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mysterious and hard to get and there's someone who's bold and ambitious and that bold person
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goes after the mysterious person, then we think the only two ways to flirt are either to be mysterious,
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bold. And these are two of 10. So actually, the reason why everyone thinks I have no game is because
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you are one of the other eight flirt styles. Maybe you're a subtle flirt style. This is the flirt style
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that loves friendship. I want to be your friend. I want to ask you deep questions. Tell me your trauma.
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Most boring things that have flirting. But it's it. And then there's there's so many others. You know,
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there's the playful flirt style. This is someone who wants to make you laugh and they're playful and
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they're playing with you. But this could also be someone who's very nonverbal. Maybe they,
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they like poke you or sit next to you or they send you funny memes, right? And they're flirting
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with you. But you're just laughing thinking what a good friend. The reason we think people aren't
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flirting with us or the reason we think we can't flirt is because no one has taught us what flirting
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actually is. Yeah. And yeah, and then we're facing it off of these fake things. Sure. And again,
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media really has not done us a good service. And a lot of ways when it comes to sexuality in general.
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And the same is true. The flirting is what you're saying. And I totally see that now that you're
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saying it. And I think what I'm hearing, I think we need to talk about what flirting is because as I'm
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hearing you talk, what I'm hearing is these are just ways that we connect. And I think,
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yeah, I think we hear the word flirt. And immediately think, oh, I don't want to flirt because that
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means I have to have sex with this person. I mean, so I'm going to end up in bed with this person.
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I mean, so I'm going to invite that kind of energy towards myself. But really what you're speaking
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to when you say flirting is just about how we connect. How do we create connection? And we have
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different ways that we do that. So say more about that from your perspective and your definition of
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flirting. Yeah, I'd say my definition of flirting it is. It's connection or entertainment. We
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can't downplay or ignore or try to change that part of human behavior. And like, you know, when
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you think about like flirting as entertainment, that could be as simple as like you ordered a coffee
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and the barista is super cute. So you two, you know, have a little just, and you know what I'm talking
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about like everyone listening, that little fun, like moment of just sexual tension and then you walk
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away, you just flirted for entertainment. That's how simple it was, right? And so for me, flirting,
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the definition of flirting is connection and entertaining ourselves and others. And it's okay to
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flirt for entertainment. Some personality types are going to do that more than other people. Like,
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again, thinking of the flirt styles, the playful flirt can be a little bit like that, right? Like
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going and flirting for entertainment. But again, anybody can be. But I'd say that is what I would
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define flirting as. It's like this very broad, fun thing that we can do where we're playing with other
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people, connecting with other people. And that we really need to take the pressure away from flirting
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of like, oh, if I flirt, it means I'm supposed to have sex with this person. Right? I flirt like,
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and I didn't ask for her number on the bad guy. I just went at her and it's like, you're allowed
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to like, see a cutie and flirt and then walk away if that's what you want. And people who are in
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a relationship, I think that's another piece here where it's like, there's a lot of fear around
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flirting because on the one end, it's like, oh, if you're in a relationship, a monogamous
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relationship, you're not flirting with anybody else. That's cheating. That's bad. You can't do that.
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Well, again, this is why we need to normalize flirting as entertainment. You're, and in fact,
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I always love this reframe of like, how sexy is it if your partner is desired by other people
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but comes home and chooses you? That's the hardest thing. We don't want to train our partners to
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dull their sparkle and to stop flirting with their own life. We work to talk and create like, oh,
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what's okay? What isn't okay? Like, you know, um, and then there's a second. Yeah, that could be a
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tough conversation because how do you draw like, where are the boundaries on that? I mean, every
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couple would have to decide for themselves if you're in a monogamous situation. I think rarely do
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we think of like, that is really a tough, well, a lot of couples don't even ever have the conversation
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around the boundaries of what, what do they consider cheating? Right? Because that's so unique
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to every couple, regardless of what your relationship style is, but more so in monogamous relationships.
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And I think the boundaries on flirting, like, how would one even have that conversation? Because we
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don't even understand what flirting is and what it even means. And so I think that could be a lot
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of great area for a lot of people. Yeah, it is. And the way that you navigate through the
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gray area is through communication and action. Right? Like, it's not by hiding things. It's like,
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let's acknowledge that like, we're human. We can go, what we will flirt. Like, I'm not even saying
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like, you can. The fact of the matter is you will because you're a human being interacting with
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other human beings. And that's normal. And that's fine. And so like you said, it depends on everybody's
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relationship. If we're talking about monogamy and I'll strictly speak for myself here. So that
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way people can kind of say, okay, that's what her boundaries are. Maybe I can get in-spo.
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For me, so I'm an extremely friendly person. And I speak at events and travel the world all the
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time for work. So I am constantly around people. And I am constantly around people who will
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potentially flirt with me simply because of what I do for work. And so when I'm dating someone
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or when I'm partnered with someone, I always like let them know like, if you're with me, you gotta
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have enough self confidence and also be fully self expressed enough to date me. So that way,
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you're confident in yourself, but if something bothers you, you'll also speak up. So that's one of
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my boundaries. I want to know when something doesn't feel good for you because I can't read your mind.
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One of them, another boundary that I personally have, especially when it comes to flirting,
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because I similarly like attracts likes. So I'll often attract people who are friendly like I am.
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In fact, I was recently dating this guy, this very handsome guy. Now we're just friends. We were
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better, we realized we're better as friends. But we were both, people liked us. People would come
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up to us and there were a few times where I like, we were at a big party and at one point, I looked
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across the room and I could tell there was a woman who was really interested in him and flirting
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with him. And I could also see like, I'm like, he feels good because this woman is seeing how hot he is.
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Like, that feels good for him. I can see that. And then you know, we catch eyes across the room and
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he walks straight back over to me. That's my other boundary. It's like, if we're out together,
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I don't want you to dull your sparkle, but I want to make sure that I feel like I am there with you.
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I am your priority. Right. And if I don't feel like that, it's also my responsibility to say,
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hey, let's check in. We wrap this party. I noticed you flirting with this girl and you didn't come
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over to me, let's say, you know, he didn't do what he, what he had done to make me feel secure.
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And then we can talk about that, right? And I always like to remind people like boundaries
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are not here to punish others or tell people how to behave. You're teaching someone how to love
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you correctly. My boundary for, we're in a public place, but you always make me feel like a priority
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is so that I can feel loved and respected and in turn show up as my best self to this relationship.
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I love that. That's just, I love that. It's such a great example. So listeners, take key.
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Just is recording. Just is is right for you. But I think you bring up a nice point in this too
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that I want to speak to or have a conversation about here. There's sort of a cost. There's a cost
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to shutting down this part of ourselves, right? Just like we might shut down our sexuality around
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shame or fear. The same is true with flirting because in a sense, we're really, we are playing
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with the same energy. This is life force energy that we're talking about. Exactly.
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So if we're saying you can't flirt or I don't flirt, I shouldn't flirt or if I flirt, I'm
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teaching on my partner, we're sort of siphoning off an aspect of our essence, of our radiance,
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of our expression that is really beautiful. It's part of our humaneness, like you said. So there's
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really a cost to not embody our ability to flirt. Our natural tendency is humans to want to connect
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and want to kind of have a little bit of that playfulness expressed through the life force energy.
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Yeah. I completely agree. And I think for anyone listening who's like, I do not feel secure enough
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for my partner to be flirting. I am not okay with that. Like, you know,
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you think on your own boundaries, but if you don't feel secure enough to let your partner be
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themselves, then there's either self-work, self-esteem work to do there that you need to do, or questioning
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if your partner is trustworthy. Maybe you don't feel secure because your partner has shown you
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that they're not the most trustworthy or things don't add up, you know, we can't be afraid to leave.
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Because another thing of if you want flirting to feel good, you can't be afraid to stand up for
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yourself or leave a situation when it doesn't feel good. You know, I was just talking with someone
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about cheating and they were like, how do I make sure I never get cheated on? And I always
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love this question because I feel like people ask it all the time and they always expect me to say,
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like, there is no way. And I'm like, no, there's a hundred percent of way to make sure you never get
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cheated on in a monogamous relationship. Shout out to Polly people though and open relationships
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and non-monogamy because they all are amazing. But if we're talking about monogamy and also this
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goes back to like that idea of flirting and what is too much or not, people will not cheat on you.
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If you show them that when you disrespect them, you will leave and you're not afraid to leave.
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This is how you prevent cheating. It's having the self-esteem and it really starts with the self-esteem
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to say, oh, you talk over me and make me feel bad. I'm going to share this with you and if you don't
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change, I'm not going to punish you for it, but I am going to leave. It's like going into relationships
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at that posture of self-respect. And so by the thinking of cheating or thinking of flirting in a
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way that feels violating to the connection, those things are not going to happen if you're already
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establishing the foundation in your relationship that like there's the level of respect that is required.
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Let me just say, even if you're in a different non-monogamous relationship style, cheating can still
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happen even in those relationships. 100% of the style that is exactly what you're speaking to.
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That is still absolutely possible. So no matter what your relationship style is having that self-respect
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to hold your own limits and know your own boundaries and to not allow, not to self-violate, I think
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that happens. It can be a slippery slope where we just kind of just let that slide and next thing you
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know, you're weighed in the muck with that and things aren't going well. Yeah, absolutely.
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But yeah, thinking of flirting, and I'm so glad you said that though about the non-monogamy
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piece because it's true. Cheating can happen in any relationship and like open or non-monogamous
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relationships tend to have more communication than monogamous relationships, but like yeah, all
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of the same things can occur and I've been in both polyamorous and monogamous relationships
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and I have seen the good bat and ugly in both. I do. So I think also in this situation is that we're
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sort of speaking to how does one, let's just say you're in a long-term monogamous relationship
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and this idea of flirting is something that I think a lot of couples tend to think it's something
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that happens at the beginning of relationship. And once you're together, that's over. The
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honeymoon's over. The dating part is over. Now we're together and life becomes boring and now it's
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sexless probably. Possibly. But we forget that flirting is really a skill and it's something that
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can be revived. It can be learned and I think especially in a long-term relationship. Can you
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speak to that? Because I would think in the scenario we're just speaking to. If my partner were off
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flirting with others and not engaging that energy with me in our long-term relationship,
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yeah, I'd be like, hey, so let's talk about that from an in-long-term relationship. Why is it
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important to bring this part back online if it's gone offline and how would a couple even do that
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of things have gotten a little stale and stagnant? Yeah, well one, I mean I think you're right,
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where like the relationship escalator, if we like literally look at that, it's like we have all
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of these ideas that once we get to a certain point or we feel secure dating and flirting kind of
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falls off. And the second that that falls off, a lot of other erotic energy is going to fall off too.
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And so we're thinking of like a long-term couple and how to bring flirting back in. I mean not
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to sound like a broken record but definitely take the flirt quiz so you can know what your flirt
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style is. So you know how you flirt because the first step is really realizing you do flirt,
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you have a flirt style, what is it? What is my flirt style? What is my partner's flirt style?
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Because so often we think we're not flirting with each other, we don't know how to get back to flirting
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because we're like, oh okay, I've been together with my love for 10 years. Let's start flirting.
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I think flirting is you look sexy and now I'm going to tell you that every day but I'm actually
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a nonverbal person and that is now maybe inauthentic. So yes, I'm flirting but I'm not being
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authentic to who I really am. So step one, if you're in a long-term relationship, is figuring out
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how you both naturally flirt with each other. What does that look like? Is it through physical touch?
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Because that's a flirt style. Is it through jokes? That's another flirt style. Is it through friendship?
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Deep questions. Is it through compliments? So there's all these different ways. Once you figure out
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what your flirt style is and what your lover's flirt style is, you now have a sort of foundation
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for example, if your lover jokes with you about something and you realize oh they're the playful
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flirt that joking is how that now all of a sudden your wife is like, oh he's flirting with me
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by like saying the stupid joke. That used to annoy me but now I know this is a bid for connection.
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Well I was just going to say yeah that would be sort of the therapy term for it.
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Yeah exactly. That's right. The good for connection.
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We're care totally.
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And I think to be able to notice that in our relationships is so important because we I think whether
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they say like 80% of them are missed or something and even good health, the relationship is we
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miss them and oh my gosh like wow, that a great spot to work on anybody listening and long-term
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relationship. Like start to pay more attention when is your partner attempting to connect to the
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in all the ways that we tend to block those bids for connection. Either judging it, I think people
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can get judgmental about flirting or I've seen this happen with some couples that I've worked with
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partner flirts and it's a total turn off. Yeah right like they say something and it's kind of like
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you were a teenager or something just known. It was really not like didn't really land.
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How do you deal with that? You know what if that's the case? Their flirt styles aren't compatible.
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Well if you're flirt-style so when it comes to the flirt styles you actually have two. You have
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a dominant and a supporting flirt style and so for example I am a confident flirt. I will go up to
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anybody but I'm also a playful flirt. That's my supporting flirt style so I'll also joke or try
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to make people laugh and they kind of work together and so with people who are having like
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disconnection in their flirt styles or maybe they're not as compatible. The good news there is
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since you actually really do have two flirt styles you can kind of and when you become conscious of
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it it changes the game and so you can become conscious of this and try to navigate through it.
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I also say again listen breakups aren't a bad thing. I'm very pro-breakup if it's not working like
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figure out, talk about it, create weekly check-ins, you know figure out how long you want to stay but
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a good relationship is a relationship that you choose to be in. It's not one that you feel like
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you have to stay in. But I say not stagnant ideally. Not stagnant growing. Yeah but if you feel like
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your flirt styles are not the most compatible or the mere act of flirting isn't getting you there
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then I mean again that's just like step one. Step two is really to create as much novelty in your
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relationship as you can. So when we're looking at long-term relationships that are like let's say
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it's boring for everyone for lack of a better term right now. You want to do anything you can
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to create novelty. Maybe you two go on a little vacation together. Maybe it's even just like one
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night at a nice hotel like a staycation. Maybe you go to nice dinners, maybe you do a painting class
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together, do activities, do all different types of things. And I would say like when we're looking at
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long-term relationships you really want to look at what's your flirt style, what's your erotic
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blueprint, the archetype that you show up to in the bedroom and what is your love language. We
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want to kind of use all three of these together. So you'll have okay that's the way I flirt. I'm
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confident. Let's say I'm the bold flirt style but then my love language is quality time. And then
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my erotic blueprint is the energetic type where it's like oh I like sexual tension to be built.
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We need to kind of work with as much as we can because flirting is just one piece of the puzzle.
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So if you kind of know these different elements and when I work with couples those are like the things
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like the first thing I do is I'm like who are you how are you both showing up here. So we can kind
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of work to your strengths. But then the next thing is really just like how do we create novelty?
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Flirting one reason why flirting creates life force energy, erotic energy is because it creates
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novelty or doing new things. Oh I'm talking to this new person it's bringing this out of me. I'm
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sharing information like it feels new it feels fresh and also yeah it's like it's also why we have
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this assumption oh it's going to fall off at a certain point but it doesn't have to if you're
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creating a whole ecosystem for your love. And a part of that ecosystem is like is novelty. It's
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something to be you could learn a language with your lover you could join it like you and your
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lover can have a book club. I also this is another thing I want people to stop referring to
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each other is oh that's my spouse husband wife girlfriend boyfriend that's your lover. Yeah.
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How different does the energy change when it's like oh that's my lover I'm in love with my
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lover I'm doing this with like do you refer to this person in that way how can you input right?
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It's like it's flirting is sort of like this entry level place that we can go into that can
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really help but it's all these other pieces of the puzzle too. Yeah I like the yeah the sort of
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reframing and also there was a time in my life where I had actual like statuses so like lover was
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a little bit not quite as committed as like boyfriend you know like right and then there was just
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something below lover you know so but but I like that I and I get where you're going with it and
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having truly right like there's more playfulness too I think we can have different ways of
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referring to our beloved and the one that we you know spend our time with and keeping that
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connection alive so let me let me shift gears just slightly we're still going to talk about
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flirting here but so you've traveled the world yeah and I think that different cultures have
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different relationships with this flirting uh yeah topic right and I'd love to get your
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perspective on what you have found in terms of our culture here maybe in America versus let's say
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somewhere like Brazil or yeah like what are the differences culturally and their relationship
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with flirting and the role that flirting plays in different cultures what have you seen?
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Oh my god I've seen so many things that's so interesting I'd say in Europe um not including the UK
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but if we're thinking France uh Germany um Spain Portugal a lot of flirting and dating
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is not as structured it looks more like oh we're hanging out and we're having sex and if we still
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like each other we're just gonna keep hanging out and if we don't we're gonna kind of fall off
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it's like you're going in the flow of it and I'm actually French-American I'm a French citizen and
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an American citizen so I've lived in France I've seen it myself and my dad who's an immigrant and
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lives in America he has said so many times it is so weird has he Americans do things here with the
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dating oh you go to dinner and then you do this why why you do it let you know like and it's so
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true it's like in Europe the norm is oh maybe I met you through friends and then I see you again
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and we go to coffee and we do it's it's not labeled and there isn't these specific milestones um
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the UK is a little bit different it's a little bit more Americanized and in America we're
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we're or the Americas Canada too we can be quite like this where we're like oh okay we like
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each other but he didn't ask me to go to dinner so I guess we're not dating you know or we're like
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we had sex but then we didn't get breakfast after so this is just casual it's like we use all of
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these things to try to figure out what's going on because dad's like trying to kind of put it into
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a box fat much more quickly I wonder why that is like where do you think that and it's interesting
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the England is sort of similar in that regard and we have a lot obviously you know we kind of
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broke off from Britain but we have a lot of multicultural influences in America as well yeah but
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like why is going on there and why like I'm so curious like what are the influences in that do you
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think what's your theory on that that's such a good question I mean a part of it I think goes
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back to the Puritanical foundation that the United States specifically was created upon yeah where
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when we left Europe when we left the United Kingdom we left in this way of we're better than them
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because we're more pious and what does that mean it means rules it means structure yeah it means
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everything is outlined um but when we're thinking of modern day dating and how we've taken all of
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those things in um I think it really does kind of go back to these historical routes because Europe
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had a lot longer to question or normalize those kind of things and almost break away from them which
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is interesting because there are some ways where I find Americans are way more sex positive than
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you know people in Europe oh yeah it's the thing in the way that we dress okay so we can
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dress way more provocatively and I'll see this in the United Kingdom too although they have worse
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weather so yeah but um but they'll be way more covered up than than we are um it's very common
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for Americans to show way more skin but be less sexual yeah and then in Europe it's way more
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common for someone to be way more covered up but more sexually fluid they might have sex on the
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first state yeah and of course these are just like westernized like if we're even gonna go broader
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you know if we're thinking in different countries in Asia um there's a lot of different norms around
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marriage that I think really influences flirting in different cultures and there's a lot more of
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a like status with marriage to an in expectation and we still have that United States but I would say
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like in terms of flirting and connection things that I see that are differently done I think in
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India there's a big emphasis on marriage um on staying with your family this is also true in a
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lot of Latin American countries or in a lot of immigrants but I see in the United States where it's
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it's normal for kids to stay with their parents until they're married and and that's and like
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for some folks to be a woman in her 30s and be single and move out of her family's house
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can actually be more of a taboo than staying in her family's house and dating like an American guy
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for example who's like why are you so 30 at your parents house and she's like because if I were to
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move out I'm a whore I'm a slut um and and of course like we're going very broad people and
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everything is nuanced in every family you know and and and these are like kind of broad stereotypes
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but we do see these different kind of trends across different cultures so I would say flirting
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looks very different in Asia looks very different in Japan and Korea and China um it's going to be
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a lot more reserved it's going to be a lot more polite which is actually flirt style the polite
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flirt oh no kidding nope and the traditional flirt so when I'm telling you people say I can't
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flirt I'm like are you just a polite flirt style and your way of flirting is opening the door for
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the person that you think is cute and he has no idea because like why would he right like he's
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just thinking oh what a nice person open the door for me you know um and so but when we come to
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these other these other cultures what we see is just a complete and different way of navigating
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connection and also how to protect yourself as you navigate connection because culturally you know
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sex can mean so many different things about your worth um and so that that's like another
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piece to it I'd say if you're coming from a a background that's either religious or has a very
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deep cultural tradition uh you'll probably develop your natural authentic flirt style later in life
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after you've gotten married after you've hit these milestones that were meant to be hit in a structured
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way you might be in your fifties and in fact I work with a lot of folks who um are post-divorce or
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they're in their fifties or sixties and they're like oh well I did all the things I was supposed to do
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now I kind of want more in this set and it's like oh well you're no longer like you're no longer
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20 and thinking well I have to get married by a certain time or else I can't move out of my
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family's house right you're no longer operating in those systems right now we can kind of more
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authentically be like wait how do I connect with people yeah so we do have these you know tradition
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and culture really influences what we're allowed to do but that doesn't mean we're being authentic
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to ourselves and I also just want to say like it's you know it's okay to like it's okay if your
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life did not give you the ability to be authentically sexual yet like I'm queer myself I know a lot
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of gay people even in this day and age who are not out of the closet because it is not safe and I
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always say the same it's okay you know like you shouldn't have to sacrifice your whole life and
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family in order to be able to like flirt at the grocery store right like if that's your like it is
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a balance and life doesn't make mistakes you're on your journey however that is meant to unfold
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but yeah I do notice depending on different cultures it's later in life where people are able to be
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like oh you know what I'm gonna be a bold flirt now that's how I always wanted to I'm gonna go
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up to anybody you know and and so we see kind of those things shift as you age and change and
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again self-esteem it's confidence let me tell you is like the or I think self-esteem is a better
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word for it because confidence you can appear confident yes confident that I was gonna say
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like confidence can be sort of an overlay for insecurity or arrogance right it's where is I
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confidence yeah true confidence really has a level of authenticity and even vulnerability I think
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people don't understand that about confidence right want to be confident but really there's a
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real deep sense of vulnerability with confidence as well totally totally um what about like so I
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think different cultures as well have different relationships with flirting in general and I don't
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know if this is more of an American thing I had a friend once many years ago who had traveled and
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lived all over the world many different cultures and anytime he'd come back to the states he would
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always complain that the women here are really closed off to flirting like they're just so up
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tight and uh and I wonder if you have seen that and I do I mean I've seen that like and I've
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probably been that woman at some time in my life like oh my gosh like oh he just said that about me
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and oh my I'm so offended you know like people get so offended by the flirt I'm not like that
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anymore you know because it's like getting cat called on the street when I look like total shit
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and I'm like really like this like that literally happened once like walking on I was literally like
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got my hair but I was like looks like crap that day you know we're like to some ugly dress like
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yeah I can't call me and I laugh so hard I think I turn around I like looked at the guys in the
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pickup chop I'm like this and they're like yeah but I think there's a lot of women that would have
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been like oh my gosh you know like it all offended by it so it's just can just speak to that and like
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what why is that what's going on in our psychology that we're so offended that somebody would flirt
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maybe it's the sexualization of it or being feeling objectified for some people I don't know
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in those air it's a it's a rare moment where women can be angry and it can be validated and so what
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I've seen I actually have kind of a radical opinion about this I think a lot of women especially
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straight women are devoting too much energy to noticing all the ways men are doing it wrong
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oh sure of course and I think that women are also so hurt but we don't have a place to share our
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anger and so when we find these appropriate places like oh I can I can get really angry about cat
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calling justifiably so because sometimes it is inappropriate and unwanted and and then other times
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it's just like you said it's like oh really today well listen I thought I looked like shit so maybe
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thank you um but when we find a place where we can actually be angry it's really cathartic and I
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think that we can all of a sudden put anger for so many different things that we're feeling into
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that one place I remember I worked with this woman who was single and dating and one time she'd
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hung out with an ex and then and they were had been friends for a while like haven't been dating
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for a while we're in the friendship and and then he starts the vibe kind of change they're at like
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coffee or something the vibe kind of changed she started flirting with her and then he asked her
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if she wanted to go home with him and she got so like in our session she was like I couldn't but
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how dare he and all of and I was just like okay let's let's go neutral for a second and let's see
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that like this person who you have had sex with before and had a relationship before and have
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a friendship with wanted to open the opportunity for sex to occur and you are allowed to say no
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now if he had you know been creepy after the no get angry but I see a lot of women get prematurely
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angry because one I think we're allowed to be angry in this in this way and so oh good like that's
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that like we finally have a place to be angry and then do I think a lot of us don't know how to
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deal with the objectification and the patriarchy and what it is like to be a woman right especially
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if you're attracted to men as a woman like how is it to walk through this world being attracted to
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the thing that oppresses you and being attracted to the thing that doesn't realize it's oppressive
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because men are not monsters they are not out like I work with so many men every time I work with
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another man in my coaching practice it's like the view most beautiful gift because I get all of these
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men who are like I just want to have a girlfriend I just want to fall in love I just want and then
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but then they'll make like one wrong joke I actually had a male client this happened to him with
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the weirdest peach all he wanted was a girlfriend but he had so this is another flirt style he was
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the teasing flirt it's where you're mean to people I can backfire I can backfire from time to time
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yeah yeah that can listen the teasing flirt style is not for everybody but he was a teasing flirt so
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he had this really crass sense of humor and I would tell him I'm like you know my goal as a coach
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I don't want to change who you are I want you to find the person who's right for you because there's
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going to be a girl out there who's going to laugh at your sense of humor but with him I was like
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your sense of humor tends to offend the women you're dating you need to get really good at apologizing
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and communicating that this is how you are and you are not trying to hurt someone's feelings
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it's actually the opposite you're trying and so it's like working with men I've really seen how
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so many men are not monsters most of them are not they don't understand patriarchy they don't
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understand how they're complicit in this system that is so violating and by the way patriarchy
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hurts men all the men listening like when we say fuck the patriarchy it's not fuck men because
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patriarchy hurts you too the reason why suicide is most prominent amongst men and loneliness is
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an epidemic of bunched men is because of patriarchy but that's a whole other I just want to also say
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my stance on that is that it's the toxic patriarchy in the distorted because matriarches can also be toxic
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and highly damaging and I think we forget that and we also tend to hear we hear pay cherry
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patriarchy and we think men and like I just I think we need to do a big fat reframe on that and
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that's obviously a topic for another conversation but I just need to throw that in there no and you're
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so right because one of my academic mentors who is a lesbian and is like very active in social
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justice will be in feminist spaces and she'll tell people patriarchy isn't evil we're just doing
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it incorrectly you know we need both matriarchy and we need the masculine and the feminists
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and not the toxic and distorted forms but the actual true feminine and masculine yeah it's just
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so messed up out there and doesn't matter what gender you are it's not about gender but anyway
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but I can't see your question why women feel this way I really feel like roots down to these things
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it's like we have this big toxic patriarchy how on earth do we know one's teaching you how to deal
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with that well and how to deal with it in a powered way and I think that's what you're speaking to
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in this this how we got on this topic here it's about can we use our voice and just say I mean
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that's that's flattering that person's attracted to you they want to take you home and have said I
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mean that could really be a compliment but I think that there are so many as women were not taught
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how to be empowered in our voice yeah and how I also how to have a real genuine respect for men
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and I think you're right because of the whole oppression and all the stuff that gets weeded into
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that and I think also in that scenario there's also a sense of there's a maybe a feeling of safety
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that could have been violated for that woman in that scenario I think that can happen all the
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sudden sex come you know we're in the friend zone the heart zone suddenly oh now you're
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involving your cock in my vagina like whoa like that's such a vulnerable yeah it's like oh I
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don't feel safe anymore and now I don't feel safe I'm gonna you know get pissed getting angry
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out and getting angry yeah yeah and I think getting angry is a good step by the way to anybody
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listening like getting angry is a good step anger is your friend anger is an intelligent emotion
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and I would say like the real medicine is to start speaking up like with that client and her
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ex-boyfriend I was like well what did you say when your ex asked you you know flirted with you and
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asked you for sex and and she kind of said that she like abruptly left she like shot down and then
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she just like shamed him yeah exactly and I was like listen like one you used your voice so I'm
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proud of you because it's hard to use your voice too now in the next time you have a situation like
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this how do we do it like a little better yeah you know but it's like honor your anger speak
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up for yourself it's okay if you're imperfect but if it's worthwhile to you not every situation is
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gonna be worthwhile but if it's worthwhile like return back to that person and say hey this was
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actually this is why I got a little upset about that and can we talk about it you know and like
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figure out a way forward but I would say like you know it's counterintuitive in a sense but it's
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like honor your anger and speak like if you're a woman who wants to figure out how to start healing
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this you got to start speaking up for yourself you're gonna probably be imperfect and maybe cause
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a little conflict or tension but over time you'll get better at it well yeah and the anger is a
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cover up for the fear and this and potentially I mean I mean we're not talking she's not here
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with us right now but my assumption is and is that you know instead of that wow I feel unsafe
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right now which is what was actually probably true or something like that it's just the how dare
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you know the shame we shame and then we get angry and you know right just walk out of the room
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which is fine but but not going to be a generative response if someone listening is working on healing
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yeah healing patterns of shame and trying to become more empowered with um yeah being flirtatious
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and inflirting spaces and I think that's what a lot of men feel where they're like oh I want to
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shut down the shame it's I don't mean I mean I don't want to be you know rejected yes and
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a lot of you know and like what sad is with men they don't really talk to each other about sex
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but women can and it's like and again like you know but just all all of these nuances but I will say
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I mean flirting is still worth your time like we're talking about all the things you know what
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it's important like it just goes to show like this is I think why so many people are afraid of
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flirting even though it's such a fun word and thing to do in theory it feels like oh I opened
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Pandora's box and now you know right and now we're all and listen you want to open Pandora's box
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because if you want to have good sex you have to navigate through all of the situations that are
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going to show you what your boundaries are show you how to talk yeah speak up right like it's like
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you just you you won't get any positive results without opening up Pandora's box and
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yeah just flirting and figuring it out yes so we need to open Pandora's box and what I think
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will help our listeners with this and I'm gonna go do it when I get off this call I am signing up
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for this quiz this flirting quiz I want to know my flirting style so everyone listen you have
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to message me and let me know what you are I can't wait to find out and let's just read right
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that's at pleasure science.com forward slash flirt is that the right you are okay
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just like that come flash flash yeah because I think if we understood that like then it might be a
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little a scary out there like don't so daunting I can bring this back online I can play with this
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and I can understand oh that didn't land and maybe that's why and I can yeah try some other
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approaches if you could discover you're the flirting flirt the the polite flirt style and now you
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have and now you can tell people hey when I do these things I'm flirting with you because that's
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the other piece if you have a flirt style that like no one can tell that you're flirting now you know
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what it looks like when you're flirting you can share that with someone yeah that's awesome it's
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yeah and there's so much I mean it's time flew by we can that's so fun yeah we can do a part two
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at some point here but well open Pandora everyone go open Pandora's box we're gonna close the
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sex talk cafe box for today because we need to wrap things up but Nadege it's been a total delight
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having you I love this conversation love this topic and I just want to give you a minute to let
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our listeners know where they can find you and how they can connect with you absolutely so I own
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a company called pleasure science which is much easier than googling and figuring out how to spell
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Nadege so if you want to work with me or say hi you can find me at pleasure science on Instagram
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and TikTok shoot me a DM I would love to hear from you check out our YouTube channel where we have
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the pleasure science podcast but also a ton of really cool behind the scenes videos of what it's
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like to be a sex scholar I take you with me to the porn awards I take you with the Human Rights
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Campaign Los Angeles dinner that just happened lots of fun stuff and then you can go to pleasure
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science.com if you want to learn more about again like you know flirting how to work with me as a
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coach all of that great stuff and thank you so much Susan for having me because this conversation
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was so fun and I swear we can geek out like you and I were like wait we can't go mad to
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anything we can't go on that way okay well there will be another conversation yes there will be
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another conversation sometime soon and we will go down maybe more than one yeah we'll go down some
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of these really fun tangents and rabbit holes well Nadege again thank you so much for being my guest
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today on the sex talk cafe you're so welcome
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thank you for joining me for the sex talk cafe please be sure to leave a five star review
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subscribe and share this podcast with your friends and if you're ready to discover the
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three secrets to deepening connection enhancing pleasure and expanding your orgasmic potential
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then be sure to grab your copy of the pleasure keys ebook at pleasurekeys.com to learn more about
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my private coaching couples or treats and other offerings be sure to connect with me at pathway
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to pleasure.com or find me on social media Susan Morgan Taylor thank you again so much for joining
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me today for the sex talk cafe