Culture
The Art of Breakthrough: A Candid Studio Conversation at Poolhaus
In this candid studio conversation at Poolhaus, artists explore the intricate relationship between breakthroughs and breakdowns in their creative processes. They share insights on navigating the chall...
The Art of Breakthrough: A Candid Studio Conversation at Poolhaus
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Interactive Transcript
spk_0
And action.
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All right, so we are live in not Waco, Texas, this is...
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Do you call us Waco?
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It's wood way, but Waco, yeah.
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Listen, no one's driving.
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It's not driving.
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And on this close location in Texas, we are live in Tom Lime.
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Yes, there's nobody knows.
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Right, can't know.
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So I had a reason to kind of be in the area and we decided,
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why not? Let's hang out.
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Let's get an episode or two in the can.
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It's always fun to do some person.
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Yeah, we've only known us one time in the contender.
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Yep, and it's always fun to have studio visits.
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Absolutely.
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Always.
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Yeah, it's...
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I'm still going to be a little distracted by looking at a lot of the work
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we already talked about last night.
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But...
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So we just figured since we're going to be in the same place,
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let's talk about just kind of what's top of mind for us.
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What are we thinking about in the studio?
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What different ideas are we bringing in the work?
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And just kind of some more present and current ideas
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that we've been dressing with and kind of working through.
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So we both kind of have a little list going.
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We definitely will not get to all of them.
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No, there's probably eight episodes in this one.
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Maybe ten.
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Yeah, maybe ten.
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Um, that's the problem.
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Hey, let's put together some notes on things we should talk about.
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And then we both get over eager and...
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Total of a sudden, there's like four pages of ideas.
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And...
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But I guess that's good.
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It's good.
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I mean, we'll get to them at some point.
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Yeah, maybe.
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Or not, you know.
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Why don't you kick us out?
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We're going to kind of go ping pong style back and forth.
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But what's the first thing that you wanted to kind of get into today?
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What have you been thinking about, buddy?
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Yeah, I was...
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As we were preparing,
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I was really going through everything that's been in my head,
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right, for the last...
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I guess since the end of last year.
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Looking at new ideas and trying to figure out
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new exploration and discovering new things.
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And where I felt
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not that work currently,
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but where the future work, right,
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was telling me to go to Chase and go after.
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So as I've been working since the end of last year on ideas
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and really keeping them pretty close to the chest,
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other than sharing with a few select
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people in my network of artists,
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I've really kept it to me.
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So then I had...
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I kept having this idea as I'm always reading and studying other artists.
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When do you know you have a breakthrough?
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Like when is breakthrough an actual breakthrough?
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Because I've had multiple times over the last year
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where I thought I was turning that page.
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And then all of a sudden,
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I would text you and go,
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I just took 10 steps back.
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Right.
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I'm fighting.
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I think we talked about it last week,
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where I told you I was fighting.
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Well, this is constantly over the last year.
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It's been this process of,
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I think I'm turning the page.
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But then all of a sudden I go,
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no, no, no, that's...
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Why did I think to go that way?
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Okay, no, let's revert back.
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As we are looking through 30 pieces last night
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and new work, I'm able to go,
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that was the starting point right here.
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And then what it led me to is so far away from this.
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But I had to start this
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in order to get to there.
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And I feel like I just had the breakthrough.
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I really am confident that a breakthrough is starting.
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I think that's one of the things
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that we should probably discuss.
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You reference it briefly,
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but like, very rarely do breakthroughs happen
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without some breakdowns.
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Yeah. At least one of not multiple.
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Yeah, I'm pretty sure.
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You know?
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So talk more about like what were the...
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What do you do in general?
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How do you talk to yourself?
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What do you remind yourself of
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when you feel like it's just breakdown?
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It's a breakthrough.
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Yeah, and I'm going to be vague a bit too,
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because I haven't put the workout,
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which we'll talk about later today too.
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I'm still holding the work back
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from really showing it,
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other than little snippets here and there
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of close-up stuff.
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But the challenge is when you're on the long journey,
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when you're on that course,
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just staying really patient
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through time,
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which we've talked about in the past,
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because you think something's going to happen
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and you feel it going,
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but you're still on a process of learning.
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You have not learned yet.
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You are currently learning.
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Right.
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In learning,
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you realize either I didn't understand what I fully thought
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I understand at one point,
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or these things aren't working the way
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my mind thought they would work tangibly,
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material-wise.
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Right.
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They're not doing what my mind thought they would do.
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I have to work through all that,
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and screw it up, and mess it up,
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and pain over
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to figure out how those relationships
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will start to take shape and work together.
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And I think that's taken me since last October.
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Yeah.
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Really.
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So we're coming pretty close to a full year of that,
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and not showing any of it to anybody,
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which is also scary,
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and fear,
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and it's a lot of waiting on,
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you know,
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but does that answer the question at all?
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Yeah, kind of.
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I mean, I think where I was going with that is,
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is, you know, I think it's important for,
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I mean, it's great for anybody to hear
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that somebody who's been doing this as long as you have,
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who's, you know,
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you've had quite a bit of success in art space,
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that every time you work through a new idea,
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that you are thinking about,
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that you're developing a new body of work,
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that you go through a version of this.
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Every time.
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Yeah.
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And I mean, there's been some in the past
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that the idea,
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after years worth of work,
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was completely scrapped,
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and not,
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and then takes a total new turn
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to something completely different,
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that looks nothing like it did,
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that entire last year.
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You said something interesting.
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I'd like to talk more about this idea
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of it has to,
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it started here,
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and I see where it's evolved too,
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and other people will,
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you know, soon enough,
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but I guess just kind of,
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I'm fact that I'd deal a bit more,
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you know, so how do you,
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how do you keep from getting,
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sort of, anchored to the original idea,
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or trying to sort of,
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honor the original idea,
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versus letting it develop the way that it,
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decides it wants to evolve?
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Well, I think,
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that's going to be different for every artist.
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I'm asking you.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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So for me,
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because my work is so story-based,
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the idea is an end,
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the actual work, so to speak,
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is that idea of the story behind the work.
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So I'm doing everything I can to stay as true to the idea
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of this story I want to tell through the work,
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which, as you can see,
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has taken many different turns,
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but I'm keeping as much as I can that essence,
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of my purpose,
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for that body of work,
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wrapped up within each piece.
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Right.
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Which, I think, also gives me a freedom
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for that work to change drastically within a body.
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For a piece one to be so different than piece 38,
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I'm on now or 40 of that body of work.
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Right.
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They're drastically different.
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But I think, as we were talking last night,
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you're asking me some questions about,
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like, oh, are the lines still there?
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And like, yeah, they're here.
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They just painted over and,
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but trying to keep that original essence
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of that nostalgic moment
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that spurred on the idea as a part of it.
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Yeah, honoring the original story
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and the through line will go where it goes from that work.
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Yeah, I think,
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you know, we're going to talk about this too with you,
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but we use the word alchemy last week,
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you talked about it.
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And there is alchemy in that too.
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Because you're taking that idea of something
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and you're trying to manipulate it,
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right into something.
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What can these things do?
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Right.
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The alchemist,
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oh, well, what we put these two things together,
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well, well, this too,
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can we refine this more?
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Can we?
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So that divine spark,
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that first little thing,
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the idea of,
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oh, what if we still keeping the initial thing,
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but then it could take hundreds or thousands
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of different variations within that?
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Well, and I think,
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I have a question for you with that too,
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because I know there's a lot of new things.
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And I'm sure we're both going to be pretty vague.
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It's some things right now,
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because we're working out a lot of ideas.
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We want to wait until we're fully confident
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before we really, really throw them out there
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to the world and to the audience.
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You might be fully confident.
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I'm just going to go for mostly.
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Okay, mostly.
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I can get to most.
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Okay, mostly confident.
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No, but that we'll talk about that later too.
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But thinking about breakthroughs and thinking about
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just that whole idea,
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how is that represented in your head
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as you're moving through material to new material
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and new ways to manipulate those materials?
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And, you know, I've seen you have breakthroughs
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from original ideas to where you are now.
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Like I've seen major breakthroughs
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and it's been really fun to watch.
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Like, how was that play in your head,
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especially thinking about exploration
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and discovery within all that?
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Yeah, I think, and that's something I wanted to,
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I've been thinking about a lot lately,
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it's just the benefits of having a methodical approach.
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So I think about early on,
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it was all just sort of, you know,
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unbridled experimentation without any real,
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you know, plan or sort of system around how I was approached.
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That's exactly what I needed to be doing during that time.
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And I think about it as I've begun to mature, you know,
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as an artist, it's really, you know,
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I spent a lot more time thinking about that idea.
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Like, all right, one is a time to explore
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and one is a time to exploit.
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And this is an idea I've been reading about in this book
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that I've referenced a couple times in the previous parts.
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But this book called The Explorers Gene by Alex Hutchinson.
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And he talks about this, I'm actually going to read about it.
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Yeah, the Explorer Exploite de Lemme.
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So he defines it as exploration,
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encompasses search, variation, risk-taking, experimentation,
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play, flexibility, discovery, innovation.
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This book isn't written for artists, but it could be.
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Yeah, okay.
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Exploitation encompasses refinement, choice,
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production, efficiency, selection,
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implementation, and execution.
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He goes on to write, you can exploit the knowledge and resources you already have,
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or you can explore in search of an outcome that is uncertain,
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but might turn up to be better.
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And so I like to read, you know, obviously, mostly in the art space now,
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but I'm always, as we do, as artists, kind of making these connections
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between whatever works or how it's going to play out of the work.
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So this idea of what I've been working towards is
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I'm exploring the unknown while exploiting the known,
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which is what we're doing.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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100%.
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Yeah.
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And the way that I've been approaching that is much more systematic than ever before,
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in terms of just, like I believe that like SOPs, you know,
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just a standard operating process.
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Here is how I approach this.
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That equals to me accelerated and intentional growth.
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Because in the absence of a system to sort of collect these ideas that I have,
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and I don't know about, I think I can safely say you fall in this camp as well,
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like if all I did was execute on the ideas that I have in journals in my head
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in different documents, it would take me 10 more lifetimes.
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And that's assuming that nothing new pops up in there, which it does.
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The first, you know, day or two.
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Oh, yeah.
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So that's kind of the beautiful thing about it,
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but I think for me, it's like if I can have a system in place,
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if I can create and follow these sort of rules, basically,
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and then iterate as needed, right?
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So one of the things I've been much more intentional about is
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how do I sort of gather the ideas that, you know, flow through the antenna?
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And one of the things that I started doing recently,
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instead of, I still journal as well,
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but I'm such an external processor and how I sort of like just work through information,
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I've started using voicelips.
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Yes.
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You know, and that became a really good way for me to also emotionally decompress
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on the drive home from the studio.
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Your commute is about.
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Some steps.
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Yeah.
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I've got about a, about a 13 minute drive, you know, from the studio back to the house.
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And so just hitting voice, not hitting record.
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And as I listen back to some of those, a lot of them were just, you know,
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me, hey, good day.
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Here's what we got done.
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You know, I mean, just like trying to feel good about, you know,
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having, having to accomplish something,
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but also doing like studio walkthroughs of like all my babies that are, you know,
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all the, all the seven or in my case, whatever, 17 or 27 crying babies that are all
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distributed about.
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And just kind of like, okay, oh, this could go with that.
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This could, and just walking and talking.
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And then from there, taking those brain dumps and turning them into categorizing them into
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okay, is this specifically referencing work and progress?
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Is this sort of just a new idea or a new vein?
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Yeah.
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Is this a new process or experiment that I need to try?
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Is this a task driven, you know, to-do list?
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But it's sort of like making sense of the mess that is otherwise, you know,
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yeah, my mind.
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And then converting it into, you know, digital document that we either go into my,
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sort of master, new body of work document.
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And then the tasks and to-do is get transferred into sheets.
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This is just my system.
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Yeah.
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This is not like, hey, do this.
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But it's just what works for me.
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And so with like the master document, especially with this new body of work,
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I've got declarations, decisions I've made, descriptions, process, experiments, test needed,
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you know, new skills that I need to acquire.
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I'm taking a well-in-course right now because I just, I need to learn how to well,
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to do what I want to do with sculpture.
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And then figure out, you know, what tools do I need to buy?
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And how much work do I need to sell to be able to-
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to do that?
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Invest in this entirely, you know, new setup.
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But it's all based around that idea of like, all right, I want to exploit what I know.
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Back to that definition of, I want to refine, choose, produce, be efficient, select,
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implement, and execute based on them known.
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You know, while still searching variation, risk-taking, experimentation, play,
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like both of those things.
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Right.
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You know, and I found that if I'm too rigid with, hey, this is the plan to your film,
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and about like, this is a original idea, I just want to see this through.
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If I'm too rigid with that, then I'm not leaving space, you know, to follow the beautiful
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or preputerities of the river and see where they might lead.
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If I'm too flexible, then I completely can lose, we can completely lose sight of the original,
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you know, plan or idea, and lose sight of the essence of its origin.
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So I think for me it's been just kind of really finding that balance between those two studies.
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I wonder, and I think, I started really thinking about this because of all the books that I'm
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reading about artists from the past, right, and those breakthrough moments.
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So, you know, they go from something that they've been doing for years, and all of a sudden,
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it's like that aha moment, you know, and reading about Ellsworth Kelly having his moments like
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that and reading about Sam Francis and Joe Mitchell and all these artists like that I do,
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are having those moments, I've tried to make that be in my foreconscious way more, that idea.
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What does that look like? I think it's just that expectation,
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a happy and expectation that breakthrough will come with time.
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Rather than years ago, I just make work and really get frustrated when things aren't working,
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the way I want them to, and things aren't turning out the way I would like, and being embarrassed,
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or you know, about what this looks like shit, where am I going? Instead, I'm going, this is leading to a breakthrough.
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This all the shitty work, all the stuff that gets covered up, all the stuff that never leaves
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a studio, all the stuff that didn't sell, all the that's leading to the breakthrough.
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If I didn't make it, then I'm really far away from the possibility of a major breakthrough.
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What does that look like? I don't know. I don't know. I think I've had little snippets of it,
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like little mini breakthroughs, but I just wonder, because you know, I look at some of my favorite artists
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out there today, creating art, and I'm looking at their work, and I'm going 10 years ago,
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that work was really weak. It wasn't strong. They were young. And then all of a sudden,
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there's this moment where you're like, how in the world did Iwayway go from that to that?
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How in the world did Rashid Johnson go from there to there? For some people, it's
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place and network, and they get a moment that happens. For others, it's head down, just work, work, work,
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work, work, work, and then there's just massive. Does they have this breakthrough?
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I'm confusing two points. I shouldn't have gone there with network and stuff, because that's
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more career breakthrough than the work breakthrough. But for me, I'm trying to make it in my head to be
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thinking about more, because that also makes me work a little bit longer sometimes, and put it
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in a little bit more. Or we all do this. I know you all probably do it out there too. You start to
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get low on materials, and you want to conserve a little bit, or you're like, if I ruin this canvas
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right now, I'm not going to be able to buy canvas for a little while longer or whatever. So,
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because I'm not really pushing my work right now, I'm not selling work right now,
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because I'm in this holding. So, for me, it's like, I don't really want to go spend more money
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on more material. So, let's make sure these canvases work out. But if I have breakthroughs,
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keep just ruining it, just push through it, just paint over it. And what I'm hearing is the
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belief that the breakthroughs will come that keeps you from falling in the trap of just reverting
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back. Playing it safe. I don't want to play safe. That's really been one of my
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lunch. I don't want to play it safe. I'm going to take these risks. I want to explore. And if
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you're exploring, you're not playing it safe. Well, it's funny. You say that I don't know when I
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sort of made this decision, but I made a very distinct choice at one point that I've stuck with,
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which is I'm always going to prioritize pushing the work forward over potentially ruining what's
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in front of me. Yes. And realizing that ruining what's in front of me may be what's required
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to actually push the work forward. And that kind of goes back to that whole idea of
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nothing is precious. I mean, a lot of things are very, the process is precious. Right. The practice
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is precious. But what this piece in front of me, if I treat it like, oh, I don't want to ruin it,
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the fear and the reservation and that that just causes me to pull back. Absolutely. And play scared
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and play safe. And your best work's not going to come out of that. So, it's a curator, Roya Sacks.
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And she has a quote that says, take risks, experiment, and always stay out of your comfort zone.
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It will take you places. I think that that take you places is a combo of take you places with
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your work, but take you places in the art world. The artists who are willing to be risky and stay
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out of that comfort zone and screw a whole lot of stuff up. And they're on my bookshelf.
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They have had major breakthroughs because they're not playing to a trend. They're not playing to
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what just came before. Last year, what they're like, I mean, Rashid Johnson, Rashid's show at the
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different risky things happening in all of the work from paintings to sculptures to natural plant
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life elements and things, right? Like that's not playing it safe. Right. Took him places in his work
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because I can guarantee going with all, and I remember his first natural like plant installations
spk_0
and things. They were smaller. They were square, almost like little room type things and stuff
spk_0
that led him to now these major, you know, major installations. And it's like it took him places in his
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work that affected the paintings, that affected the sculptures, that affected every little thing he
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had his hands on, took him places in the work, and then it took him places in the art world.
spk_0
Not playing it safe. Yeah. But it started with the work. It started with the work. Yeah. Yeah. I
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mean, I've been so far out of my comfort zone with things that I'm doing trying to play with
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fibers and doing all these different things, right? And that it's so far out of my it feels really
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weird. Yeah. It feels really, really awkward. Yeah. And I keep going, keep going, keep telling myself,
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just keep going. That's the, that to me is the benefit of making decisions from from a place of
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intention and then sticking with those choices. For example, you know, I made a choice and really,
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I was wrestling with it. We were talking about it, you know, one and one, we were together in
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Montana. How long was that a month and a half ago? Yeah. And plain rides are, are perfect for this.
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Oh, always. I have a rule. I do not watch movies on point. Like planes are for work because there's
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something about my, yeah, I'm right. Like I just like boom, like just get there. There's nowhere for
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me to go. There's very little for me to be distracted by. And so, you know, I wrote after some
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drilling that I had done on that, on the retreat. And I just said, I'm, I'm all in on sculpture.
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This is all I'm doing, you know, for this period of time. And boy, I mean, the number of
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logistical challenges around, okay, well, working three-dimensional, how am I going to figure out how to,
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I mean, just basic things that I even, even just a month later, like I now have dialed in.
spk_0
But as I was just getting started, like, how do I hold this up and figure out how it's going to
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interact with, with the unveliments, you know, and going through different iterations of, okay,
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is it wood, is it screw, is it glue, is it resin, is it, you know, how do I even just get these to,
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to stand upright so that they can, you know, interact with one another, but it's all of those
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things that are required. And if I hadn't made that decision on the front end, I'm fairly certainly
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that I would have probably defaulted to what I was more comfortable with. I was like, okay,
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right. I know how this exists on a wall. This is, this is in my willhouse. I know, I know how to,
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you know, what to do with this. You're talking about how can we, earlier, and that's another,
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another thing. This is kind of more process oriented, but I was just really going and thinking about,
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like, one of the things from our leading art or drew conversation where he talked about cannibalizing,
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you know, from existing elements. I've really been reflecting on that whole idea of, you know,
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the work sort of, you know, feeding on itself and off of itself. As I've been thinking about
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different things, especially from a three-dimensional perspective, this idea of cyclical cannibalization,
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you know, so this would be just my version of applied, you know, how can we? So one thing I realized,
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this is one of those just aha moments, I was like, okay, anything can become, I can cast anything
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into metal, not actual alchemy. I'm not turning something. But I, you know, and so really dialing
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my process with an understanding how to use petri bond sand, right, for sand casting.
spk_0
But realizing, okay, I can turn metal into metal, I can turn resonant into metal, I can turn wood
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into metal, I can turn core plates like all of it, and then really dialing in my process for that.
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The other part that I, the other element that I've been working with a lot lately is deep cast
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resin. It's a, I just call it ice, it looks like ice, it's an in-product, so it's called ice. But
spk_0
that's more figuring out, right, how do I make silicone molds, you know, how do I, how do I make
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these molds, but realizing that I can then take elements and repurpose them, rarely in their
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exact form, but portions of it, you know, but that was just such a big, a big, just lightning bolt
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moment for me, which is pretty obvious when I said I allowed you to think about it, but then
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taking it from the idea to the tactical logic, how do I do this? Okay, what do I need to do in terms
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of my setup? What spaces do I need to be able to do those things? Yeah. So with a major commitment
spk_0
to shifting, we're both kind of in this moment currently, in different ways, but as you're making
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this shift to currently just focusing on sculpture, learning, exploring, taking all your materials,
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all the different things that you just talked about from your ice to your petrobond.
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To all the different things you're playing with, turning into combining, forming, casting, not
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casting, right, what is your mind sex? We kind of, I kind of shared mine already. Well, how is your
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mindset been as far as like, when will I know I'm ready? When will I know I have something? When will
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I get to the point where I'm like, now I really know where to go? Has there been a fear there?
spk_0
A little share? Yeah. Talk about that. I mean, you know, I've just started, I completed my first
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couple sculptures. We talked last episode about, you know, self-imposed deadlines I had want
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whatever episode or two ago. And I sat along before I, before I came down here, I will have, you know,
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three down, I got two of three, you know, complete. But even just yesterday, you know, before I hop
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down a plane, yesterday was my photo day to take photos and take some videos of these. And it's a very
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it's a very vulnerable feeling to even, even for me to, you know, send them to you and then have
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not reply, you know, to that text and just imagine that you think they're shit. But, you know, that's
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a, so there's a vulnerability there, you know, and I think it comes down to confidence in,
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do I like this? Do I, I mean, at the end of the day, we're all making work for ourselves first
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with foremost, right? I mean, from our last episode, you know, our, our, lean talked about that.
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It actually, yeah. It wasn't one of the quotes that we shared. It was actually from the
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end of my sense podcast interview, where she said, I mean, ultimately, I'm paraphrasing here, of
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course, but ultimately, you know, as artists, we're making work for ourselves. And we don't know
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what's going to see the lead day or if anyone else is going to lie on it or if you do what they're
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going to say about it. And so just kind of using that as a governing principle for myself, because
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it is very emotional. It's very emotional to, you know, wonder like, is this garbage? Like, am I,
spk_0
come on to something, I'm on something. Like, is this a breakthrough or is this just a necessary step
spk_0
to get to a point where am I close? Am I, you know, where am I at on the map, you know, is a very real,
spk_0
you know, just question that, that comes to mind. So it comes back to just that, that belief of,
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all right. So for these first couple, anyway, I was like, I like these. I like having them around me.
spk_0
Yeah. You know, yeah. They say to me what I was trying to say through the work.
spk_0
And that's, that's enough for whether anything happens with them, you know, and it's taken me
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a while to get to that place. You know, I know, you know, earlier on for me, for sure, I was almost
spk_0
completely dependent on external, you know, validation and validation to say like, oh, yeah, that's,
spk_0
that's good. Okay. Cool. This is good. Yeah. Data points from all over other people or opinions.
spk_0
Oh, okay. All right. Good. Now, no, it's good. It's good. I like this. I like it. I don't like where
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it's going. And also just back to your idea of just the belief of like, this is just a step.
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There's, there's, there's more coming. You know, this is just a necessary step to get to, you know,
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what's coming next. And I, I'm so fired up about, about what's coming next. I want every artist
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that's listening right now to just go write this down when you get home or if you stop,
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pull the car over if you're driving or if you're in the studio, just write this down. The work is
spk_0
taking me somewhere. Yeah. I want you all to be so confident that even in the work that you're
spk_0
hating right now is taking you somewhere. Just know that. I know we all are doubting so many
spk_0
things in the studio that we're doing every day. Yep. Every day. And for the younger artists out
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there and younger, not an age, but an artwork that don't have a gallery or you're not selling
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workers, just don't worry about that stuff. Just keep working on the work and know the work is
spk_0
taking you somewhere. Yep. If you're dedicated and you're working and you're creating, the work
spk_0
is going to get somewhere. It will get there. And this, this is, let me add something. Yeah. Yeah.
spk_0
Don't take our work for you. Go to the source. Yeah. Go to every, I mean, time's got an amazing
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collection of biographies, autobiographies. Go to the source. I mean, go to the grace and just like
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you will not find a single, maybe I'm wrong about this, but I don't think you've read a
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single story. I haven't read any yet. Where there's at least one, if not multiple examples of those,
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what am I doing, you know, moments or those, those genesis pieces that maybe are or not,
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what we think they're going to be that ultimately become, you know, what they are ultimately known for.
spk_0
Yeah. Yeah. It just, it takes time and I know, here's, I'm going to, I want to pose this as a question.
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Let me see if I want to read this quote first and then pose the question. Yeah, I want to read this
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quote first because it talks about everything you just said. This is from the artist Tally Lennox.
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Don't rush to get your workout. It takes time to achieve quality and find your truth.
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Welcome in patience and perseverance over the seduction of immediate gratification.
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And my question that I want to ask, and I'm asking myself this currently right now, as the art world
spk_0
is changing, which it's always going to change. It's an ever evolving amoeba and with so much more
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online accessibility acceptance. The way that Instagram has exploded as an artist platform where we know
spk_0
there's a brand new generation of art lovers and collectors that see Instagram as their
spk_0
gallery as their go-to guide to find new artists and curators. The art world is doing the same.
spk_0
They're going to Instagram. So I've been asking this question lately, like,
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releasing work today with Instagram and social media pressure looks totally different than it did
spk_0
10 years ago. How long should we wait to release our work? Should we, should we just share it in
spk_0
the process? Or should we hold back and wait until we're fully confident and ready? Now, years ago,
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I don't have an answer. I'm just, I think this is a great conversation.
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Years ago, the artist would wait, build up, release the work to their galleries, to their curators,
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to their dealers and go, here's 25 paintings from this body work. Maybe it's a show, maybe they're
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whatever's selling that body work and it was like, here it all is. It wasn't like, here's one painting.
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Here's just second painting. Two months later, it was like, here's it all.
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The pressure for us today is, I need the algorithm to keep finding me because that's where I'm
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finding my audience outside of who already follows me. Curators, galleries may discover me, so should I
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share? But if you're not fully confident in your work, you shouldn't really share it because
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that immediate gratification could stall what's coming down the road. If somebody, if you get,
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or lack their roof. Lack their roof. Right. Well, make you feel like you're not on the right track.
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So I've really just been kind of talking to myself about like, things have changed.
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Things are changing and evolving, so they're going to be things that are going to be different
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and more accepted and fine. Yet whatever, I still think for me, I don't want to really, really show
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until I'm absolutely confident in the work in the idea. Now, I know all of my work, I'm not going
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to be happy with. That doesn't mean I didn't fully execute the idea in it. Right. Because I have
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pieces I love that nobody else likes. I have pieces that I don't like as much that people absolutely
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love. Right. But if I really feel like I found my truth in that work and it was really true to
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the idea, if there were some weaker elements in it that I didn't really like, but yet it got
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a the right court of approval from my artist peers, from my artist network, that I might be missing
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something, but it's in the right. Well, I think what you're talking about, I mean, the timing is
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everything. So what you're describing is the pieces that you're talking about that you know,
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that you're confident in enough that it's true to you and the work, but that you don't love as
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much as, you know, these over here, let's say, you're still putting that you're still really,
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because who are you to we talk about all time, right? Once you once it's out in the world,
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it's not ours anymore. Not ours, and you know, and who are you to rob somebody, you know, of the
spk_0
experience of really enjoying something that that you maybe don't love as much or maybe it's not
spk_0
the person that you would hang over the mantle in your own home. But I think the timing really,
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that's really what it comes down to in that NLS, the essence of your question, you know,
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originally anyway, but it's like, I think it's worth noting that as far as whatever posting things
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or sharing things publicly is concerned that when we appear to be most productive, it's actually,
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in my case, in years as well, it's it's months. It's a long time after the work.
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That was actually made, you know, and so to your question, like, I think a lot about,
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I've just made peace with, listen, I mean, my presence, you know, online or how visible I'm
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going to be with, with sharing what I'm doing is just, it's going to be cyclical and just being okay
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with that, right? Like, I, there was a time when I was playing that game of posting every day,
spk_0
and I think that that was mostly unhealthy. The one utility of that for me was that it definitely
spk_0
suddenly kept me productive. Yeah. So that, that, that, but again, that was a season for me that has
spk_0
since passed, and I now, I know, I know longer feel like I work for fucking Instagram. Yeah, you know,
spk_0
I mean, like, if I have something that I'm excited to share, that's worth sharing rock and, yeah.
spk_0
And until it's ready, it's not ready. The other thing, I mean, not to make this an Instagram
spk_0
conversation, but the other part, I want to, I want to a little bit, though, because I know that's,
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I know for artists listening, yeah, that's a big thing that's in all of our heads. So here's
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what I'll share. I mean, and I think this is true for you as well. I mean, the work that I'm
spk_0
confident in, I'm going to post that should, you know, two, three, four times, or the course of a
spk_0
year, right? Yeah. Realizing that, especially with the way the algorithm behaves, not everybody's
spk_0
seeing it. There's a really good chance that only a small percentage of people who would actually
spk_0
enjoy seeing it, see it. Yeah, actually see it, right? And so it's always, there's no better test.
spk_0
I mean, we've actually done this with reposting episodes that were called a couple of years ago.
spk_0
And people that we know, well, yeah, listen to it, you know, I think it's most, or if not every
spk_0
episode, or like, hey, that new episode was great. I think you probably actually heard it. You're
spk_0
already listed to the year ago. Yeah. Which may not say much for us. The redundancy of our topic
spk_0
matter, but rolling side in the moment. You know, so just, I mean, I think that's that's part of it.
spk_0
I mean, if there's, because that, you know, it's already done, you know, you already feel good about
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it. And it's just something to whatever stay somewhat visible, you know, but again, like I think it's
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it's all, who are you working for? You know, what are we working for? You know, it's a tool, it's a
spk_0
use, it's a very useful tool when it's leveraged properly. But I mean, for me anyway, if I'm thinking
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about the work through the lens of how's this going to perform or, you know, whatever, I've already
spk_0
lost one for for all you artists out there, your Instagram page, unless you're exploding and you're
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in galleries and like, it should be a journal. Yeah. It should be a visual journal should be your
spk_0
approach. The Delphi and Gallery book has has fantastic advice on that. And I would say make it a
spk_0
visual journal. Yeah. You don't owe and I write, I'm not showing finished pieces right now, but I'm
spk_0
giving hints. Yeah. Like I'm updating whoever's watching, which I know there are art world people
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watching. Yeah. May not be following me, but I know they're watching because they've made comments
spk_0
or I've seen them like something. And so I want to make sure that I'm still keeping them updated on
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progress. So it may be close up little shots of yarn and fiber on things. It may be, you know,
spk_0
a wide shot of me in the studio. But I'm, you need to be showing that you're working. Right. And
spk_0
that your work is moving. It's growing. It's you're creating constantly. I'm not saying post
spk_0
every day. You can if you want. Yeah. That's just, that's, it's exhausting. You and I have been
spk_0
Instagram. And I know I don't want to post like I used to. I don't want to spend the time anymore.
spk_0
So I'm kind of tired of it. Yeah. And but it is my visual journal. I need to be updating. I've
spk_0
made great friends from Instagram and mentees and artists that I work with and network with
spk_0
around the globe. So I would say don't put all your stock into it as you need to be spending a
spk_0
ton of time, but keep it updated regularly. Talk about your work and your progress and things that
spk_0
you're doing and trying. And if you don't want to show your work, just show glimpses of you in
spk_0
the studio working. Yeah. And then when the work is when you're confident, now put that painting up,
spk_0
now put that sculpture up or that drawing or that piece up and then go back to the visual journal
spk_0
and then put a piece up. I've been using this, this really isn't like tactical or probably even smart,
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but I've just been using stories as my sort of ongoing journal. Yes. I'll post like maybe
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one story a day. Yeah. You know, if that, but just one little clip, you know, it's not this edited,
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you know, whatever. And I do actually enjoy doing like the start to finish, you know, that's
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something that I enjoy. And those actually do tend to, you know, get more eyeballs as well, but,
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yeah, just a little clip of like here's what I was up to today, you know. And it's actually,
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I find it to be healthy for me as well. I did this on the plane just looking back through,
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you know, all the random clips that I collected and being like, oh, yeah, it actually, for me,
spk_0
it is fulfilling and it's a good reminder, like, you know, I have a tendency to be very,
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very hard on myself and to, and that's another benefit of this sort of like, you know, brain,
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you know, head heart dump, you know, that I do, you know, on the drive home. I'm just saying,
spk_0
oh, yeah, actually, as I kind of just go through like the mental list of like, okay, we did this,
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we did that, we did that. I'm going to say, we, because obviously my creative director Leo's
spk_0
a good, yeah, and I'm going to go part of, you know, everything. And I can account for all of my
spk_0
various personalities that I'm, that I'm taking on in the studio as well. But it's just nice to be
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able to say, just to look back through the, the photos of it, and say, oh, yeah, I forgot about
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those two days that I totally got, you know, D2 work, yeah, in my mind, right. And that's,
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that's where I get stuck. Actually, this is, it's good that I'm thinking about this now. That's
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where I get stuck is, so I, this is the, will be the downside of having to get inside. I get to,
spk_0
well, no, I get to this is what I'm trying to accomplish. You may miss, right. So back to that
spk_0
Explorer exploit, like, okay, I'm going to exploit whatever I'm going to execute. Let's say,
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exploits kind of a loaded word, but I'm going to execute on these ideas and on this plan with
spk_0
intention and then something sparks. And I'm like, all right, I got to, I got to do this. I got to
spk_0
do it right now. What's fresh. Yeah. And so the day ends, I look back at my, my plan going into the
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day. I did one of the seven things that I had on my list. But when I go back to those photos and
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videos, just little little things that I'm mostly just capturing for myself, just to log. I'm like,
spk_0
oh, okay, cool. Yep. I didn't push these pieces forward that I was open to get done by X date
spk_0
forever. But that's valuable. That's a valuable detour that will pay dividends in the future. And
spk_0
I think for me, one thing that's really reinforced that belief that the breakthrough is coming
spk_0
is by going back, you know, and seeing like, oh, wait, this is, I use an element in the sculpture
spk_0
recently and not to, you know, whatever, go into the gory details of my process. But I make a lot
spk_0
of different, I just call them elements or, you know, artifacts. Sometimes with an intention
spk_0
of what they're going to be used for. But I'll usually make, you know, whatever, seven versions of
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something that I'm going to use one of for this particular piece. And the rest just get stored in
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the ever growing library of, you know, potential players that can get a role in a future, you know,
spk_0
play, right? And so for me to circle back and realize, oh, this is something that's been waiting for
spk_0
it's this is a, this is a great actor who's been waiting for their chance to really shine. And I
spk_0
now have the perfect part for them in this play that wasn't even written. Yeah. Right when they
spk_0
were first made. I think I just came up with the definition for you as an artist. Great. I'm ready.
spk_0
I think you're an abstract archaeologist. I like that. Like because you're working in abstracts.
spk_0
But I do really see you as an archaeologist, I'll commit to archaeologists like a mix, right? Because
spk_0
you're constantly uncovering and basically digging up things, right? So like creating your artifacts.
spk_0
But then I'll see you have them all out on the table the way an archaeologist would literally
spk_0
sift through the sand and pull all the pieces up to create the skeleton for the dinosaur bones
spk_0
they found or whatever it is, right? And then you're thinking through how to piece all that
spk_0
together to take what was buried discarded, whatever, and then piece it together into something that
spk_0
goes into a space. I think about it. Right? The way an archaeologist would piece it together and then
spk_0
take it to the Smithsonian or Natural Science Museum or whatever. So I don't know, just popped in my head.
spk_0
I like that a lot. I think about excavating, you know, discovering things. I think that's in your
spk_0
art statement excavation. It is, yeah. But you know, it's funny. It is a lot like that where it's
spk_0
like, okay, we've got this femur bone and the moment when I've whatever the bone that ever
spk_0
that, okay? Yeah. It's like when I find the, you know, when I can look it because I do, I absolutely
spk_0
do that. Actually, I'm really sharing a lot of studio shots, but right now the studio is
spk_0
nothing. The tables and tables and all my little experiments actually do back to my systematic
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approach. I finally, this is where I got a, you know, set aside days, sometimes weeks into like,
spk_0
all right, I got all of these things laying around. How do I sort them out? Sort of categorize them.
spk_0
I've got a bunch of different slides in the shelving system and I pull the slide. I'm like, what,
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I bet that would and set them next to each other and just kind of see how they're going to. But the
spk_0
excitement, the charge that I get when to completely disparate elements just work together, like they
spk_0
were made for each other. Yeah. It's, it's, we talk about the addictive nature of this process.
spk_0
That's what I'm hooked on. Probably more than anything. Yeah. Yeah. I had an addictive moment the
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other day and then I just went crazy on like multiple pieces with that moment of something, right?
spk_0
And I was like, I don't care if these don't work in any of these. Yeah. It worked in these two.
spk_0
So I need to keep rolling and see how it fits. And then on a couple of like, no, no, that's not work at all.
spk_0
It worked for those. It's not working for anything else. There's something to be said for that though.
spk_0
It's the whole like, you know, when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Yeah. You're like,
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you go, I got to go. And you hammer those. We're just back, back, back, back. You know, hey,
spk_0
if it works 10% of the time, then it works. Good, good times. But there, there's a quote
spk_0
by the most people know Simon DePerry, the auctioneer, if you're in the yard world or around it,
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or you've seen them in every art documentary in the last 30 years, I don't know 40, but he says
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Instagram will have the same impact on the art market as YouTube had on the music industry.
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The online market is here to stay. I'm assuming that was probably 10 years ago. And that's,
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I keep reading quotes like that from art world people. So that makes me
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always ask myself though, because we want to be ahead of things as artists. We don't want to get
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behind things as artists. We want to stay on top of and at kind of ahead of where things are going,
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especially for us that aren't in New York, aren't in LA, Berlin, major art cities around the world.
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If you're not in that city around everything, we're all kind of still, we're all kind of playing
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ketchup or trying to get to. So I think it was Kenny Shactor that said, always read. That's how I
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stay on top and ahead of things I'm always, always reading. And I think he says I'm reading seven
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books at a time constantly. And then he said readartjournal.com because it's like an update. But that's how
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he stays ahead and stays on Oh, Instagram. Okay, we need to go here. Right. I did that years goes like,
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this is right when Instagram started, right? I've talked about on the podcast before. I watched
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Heather Day explode from Instagram. I was like, I'm copying everything she's doing with what she's
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doing on her platform. This I got to go. So it's like reading, studying, staying ahead so that you
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kind of can go, Oh, I don't have to play ketchup. So it's like when you read a big,
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art auctioneer saying Instagram will be what YouTube did for the music industry, which is taking
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an independent musician in their room with a guitar and turning them into an international superstar.
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Yeah. He's saying it is giving the artist the ability to have a major platform. Yeah. 20 years ago,
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there was no major platform. If you work in New York or LA or Chicago or Miami as an artist,
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and in the scene, getting your work in front of people, right? It was you're moving to one of those
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places or kind of staying. So, but it's giving that ability. Yep. If you do it well, and you learn
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and you do it, you can have an impact that could get you somewhere. Well, it's removing, we've
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removed the middleman. Yep. Which is great if you're doing the work yourself. Yeah.
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Right. I mean, if you're not so the point is if you're not putting it out there, then you are still
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dependent upon the, you know, antiquated model of just hoping that somebody magically discovers
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you. It's a piece of, yeah, all exactly. But it's a great piece. You're YouTube reference. It's
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interesting. I don't know why that's just popped in mind, but that okay, go video. Yep. Right?
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From this probably 15 years ago now, or something like that, but where they did, it was incredibly
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creative with the, on the treadmills. Yes. Yeah. And they did it all themselves. Yeah.
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Just DIY. And it was not just about the music, but the presentation of what they were doing. Yeah.
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It was so unique and so fresh that they became undeniable and got, I don't know, their whole, you
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know, whatever backstory. But I'm sure they got a lot more opportunity and way more visibility
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because they put it out first. Yeah. You know, I mean, we're just a couple of people in a studio
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with the camera to microphone just putting it out there and seeing what happens. Yeah. Exactly.
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Depending on anybody to have discovered us and taken us into a radio station and given us,
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you know, a 90 minutes lot or no, we're just doing it. And what I think it's kind of happening.
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It's the Steve Martin quote, yeah. Be so good. That the, that the crowd can't ignore you.
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Right. Be so good that they find you. So we have that ability today,
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which didn't exist for history of an audience finding you rather than you always having to go to an
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audience. Right. And that's magical. It really is an incredible thing. But it takes time. Yeah.
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And it takes effort. And that's the hard part too. And there's a, we can land the plane here.
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This is one of the straight subjects, but I know what's relevant. Yeah.
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In terms of the script. But, but there is a, you know, there's, there's a, I want to say,
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learning curve. There's a comfort curve, I would call it to just being, we were talking to
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Mandy, your wife, you know, last night about about with her business. Yeah. She's putting social
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media and hate. Yeah. Right. And it's like, okay, well, is there utility to this, you know,
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for you and what you're trying to accomplish and if there is, all right. Well,
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get on wherever you're at, dear artist friend, on the comfortability curve with putting things
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out there. There, there is, I mean, it took me a long time. And I'm generally like kind of okay
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with that in generally speaking, but when it, especially when it came to early work,
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where I was like, oh, this, this might suck. Who knows? You know, maybe Jerry's going to,
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you know, include you in a post and yeah, yeah, it's probably even shared. And there we go.
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But it does, it does speak to just, you know, getting more comfortable. And in my mind,
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that only really comes from just doing it in repetition. Yeah. It's not, you're not going to think
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your way into, you know, consistent action. Yeah. It's making a part of your routine in which
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is what I did in the beginning where I would just set up my tripod with my phone. Yeah.
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In the corner, back of the studio, hit record. Yep. And just let it run. Yeah. Right. And then,
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of course, there's days where I'd forget and then be like, no, I just missed two days because I
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forgot, I'd set my phone up, but I didn't hit record because I got into it. But then over time,
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it became so much part of routine that I just walk in, set it up. It recorded, didn't even think
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about it. Yeah. And then it became part of routine where it's like, oh, I want to produce this a
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little bit more rather than just the one wide shot. So then I'd every layer, I would move my
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tripod to a different location in the studio to capture different angles of layers. And then
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that became routine. Yeah. Not even thinking I'd go to grab a new brush, move the tripod,
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go to grab, you know, and then I just, and I would spend quite a bit of time editing things.
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And then, but then all of a sudden, that became quick. Yeah. Now all those things I can just
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edit real quick and then technology increased over the years to where you could do it all on your
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phone and edit it. I didn't have to go to my computer and, you know, use Premiere Pro or Final Cut Pro
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and things. Now I can just do it all on my phone and then everybody wanted shorter content.
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So it made it easier to do it short. So, but you can build that into your routine because
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you have to do your marketing. You have to advertise for yourself. Especially before someone's
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doing it for you. Yes. You have to do those things. So, yeah. And even after someone's doing it
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for you. Yeah. Because they're never going to care about promoting. No, they're not just
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care about you as much as you. Yeah. And that's another great quote is, I forget who said it.
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Laurie Anderson or Noah's Julian Schnabel, you need to control every aspect of your work
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in the studio and as it goes. And I want to tell you, as it goes, because you're the only person
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that knows your work. Right. Nobody knows it better than you. So, you have that ability to do that
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with your social media. At least so, bake those things into your routine so you can control that
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narrative before it's just the audiences. Yeah. You know where it's going in the gallery. How it
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should be lit. How it should be with the other pieces. You can work through those things with
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the curator. Don't just throw it out to the wolves and go do whatever you want with it. No, it
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needs to be lit this way. It needs to be, you know, these are the things that need to happen to show
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your work in its best light. But control it now so that you really understand when you have that
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conversation with somebody later. Yep. Well, I hope that was engaging for everybody because I know
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I'm engaged. It was fun for us. It was fun for us. It was like we make work for ourselves
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first and foremost. Yeah, I really enjoyed this. Yeah. And I had some new, I had some, I actually had
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a new idea while we were talking. You said something and I'm looking at my work while you were
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talking and I went, oh, yeah. And so I made a note of, okay, this, this, this, and these things.
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So that, I mean, that's always great. I think I don't go hang out with an artist this week.
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Find an artist friend. Go spend some time like we've been doing the last since you got here last
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night. Just talking about work and things. You want to do your address real quick and yeah, so come on.
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No, but I will. My buddy Jack is coming over. Jack Bowers coming over next week to hang out and
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look at work. Local artist here in Waco who's got a great show up at Washington Gallery with
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Robbie Austin, another artist friend from Louisiana. So that'll be fun next week.
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But having a studio visit, I will, I'll let that come back to that. I will, I will say this.
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Obviously this will air long after I'm gone anyway from here. Hopefully not overall. But I will
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say I do, I love having studio visits. I've been having more of those lately. Yeah. If you live
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in the Minneapolis area or if you happen to be passing by, my studio is eight minutes from
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the airport. Come on by. I'm always excited to hang out with people that want to look at our
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talk about art studio visits are great for a number of reasons. You're getting to one, you get
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your workout and you kind of put it out for somebody to come look at. So you're seeing your work
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all together. Yeah. That you haven't really done that with in a while. You're getting to watch
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somebody look at your work. Yeah. Which if you have a show in a gallery, you're going to be watching
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lots of people look at your work and you have no idea what they're thinking. So for those of you
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who are very introverted, it's a great confidence builder. Yeah. Even if the person is like your work,
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you're used to somebody looking at it with you standing there next to them, which for some people
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is not a fun experience. Right. But if you want your work in the art world, you need to be ready
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for those experiences. So having people, you're saying this, but it's not just me people who already
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love you and what you're doing. Yeah. Yeah. It's going to be a whole lot of people that I'm out.
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And great advice here that I learned from another artist early on asks somebody to in your studio
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to ask hard questions. Yeah. That force you to talk about things with a hard question.
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Because you're not going to have a lot of wonderful questions that shows I've had. I've literally
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had people ask horrible things. Yeah. Where I'm like, did you really just fucking ask me that?
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I want to say that. Yeah. Yeah. Right. But I can't. Yeah. Right. But so just it's just a great experience.
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And those are low, there are low stakes reps. Absolutely. As to your visit. Yeah. It's very different than
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at an opening or at a show where that's it. That's it. That's it. We're already nervous and you're
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already kind of out of your comfort zone. And then somebody, the MFA student walks in and wants to
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show what their teachers been teaching them, not what they know. And then boom, you know,
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unfortunately, I love to play games with those people. But anyways, invite somebody over.
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Have to do a studio visit, invite a couple people over exchange studio visits. Hey,
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you want to do it? Yeah. If you want to start up the camera and just do a zoom visit.
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It was great fun. Was somebody on Instagram that you became friends with in Portugal and you're in
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Michigan. I'm using Jacqueline and Verette as examples. And do a virtual studio visit and hang out,
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talk about work. That's it. Have fun. Don't make some art. Don't make some art. Thank you for joining us
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for today's episode of Just Make Our Podcast. If you want to see, if you're just listening and you
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want to see Ty's amazing studio and what the tubeless look like when we're having this conversation
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thanks on YouTube and Jonas for the next episode, which we made the chance to record tomorrow. Yeah.
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Why not? See ya. Bye.
Topics Covered
Waco Texas podcast
art breakthroughs
creative process
exploration and discovery
artistic evolution
studio visits
story-based art
artistic challenges
original ideas in art
methodical approach to art
artistic experimentation
creative ideas development
artistic journey
artistic breakthroughs and breakdowns
artist networking