Sneak Peek into The Heritage Foundation's China in Africa Database featuring Joshua Meservey

Interactive Transcript

spk_0 Hello, I'm Olivia Enos, senior policy analyst in the Asian Study Center at the Heritage Foundation,

spk_0 and I'm pleased to bring you our seventh and final episode of season two for China Uncovered.

spk_0 As you all know, what China Uncovered is part of our broader China Transparency Projects,

spk_0 and this project and the series of podcasts are really pushing for greater data heavy

spk_0 transparency for the Chinese Communist Party, and we're doing so by highlighting the work

spk_0 of our friends, including today, our own Heritage Foundation, Josh Miservi.

spk_0 So for this episode, we're going to be giving our listeners a sneak peek into the Heritage

spk_0 Foundation's China in Africa database.

spk_0 In the 2021 China Transparency Report, we found that China has not only ramped up its

spk_0 overseas activities, but these activities have often had direct impacts on other types

spk_0 of engagements.

spk_0 I think this is especially true in Africa where China has often used economic inducements

spk_0 to impact the way that countries in Africa are voting, for example, at the United Nations.

spk_0 So I think for this and for just a lot of other reasons, it's super important for us to

spk_0 have a comprehensive understanding of China's engagements in Africa.

spk_0 And so I'm delighted that today I'm bringing in our guest, and as I mentioned, my colleague,

spk_0 Joshua Miservi.

spk_0 Joshua and I actually go way back.

spk_0 I'm lucky to call him a colleague and to have had the opportunity to work with him on

spk_0 another area of his expertise, which is on the US Refugee Program.

spk_0 He's a wealth of knowledge on that subject as well.

spk_0 But he also commends himself, because he recommended one of my most favorite books that I've ever

spk_0 read, called When Bread Becomes Air by Paul Colonyty.

spk_0 So I highly recommend this book to everyone, but just some fun background and anecdotes.

spk_0 So to say that, I'm excited to have him on.

spk_0 The podcast is definitely an understatement.

spk_0 But now onto the actual task at hand, I'm going to give Joshua more formal introduction.

spk_0 Joshua is the senior policy analyst for Africa in the Middle East here at Heritage.

spk_0 He studies African-Jewel politics, counterterrorism, and as I mentioned, refugee policy.

spk_0 Josh is a returned Peace Corps volunteer who served in Zambia and extended his service there

spk_0 to work for the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

spk_0 He has also worked for Church World Service in Kenya, US Army Special Operations Command,

spk_0 and the Atlantic Council prior to joining us here at Heritage.

spk_0 He holds a Master's of Arts in Law and Diplomacy from the Fletcher School at Tufts University,

spk_0 and an undergraduate degree in History from Templeton Honors College at Eastern University.

spk_0 Josh, along with our colleague Justin Rie, managed the China and Africa database that we're

spk_0 going to be talking about today. So Josh, thank you so much for joining us.

spk_0 Thanks so much for having me Olivia. It's great to be with you here on the podcast.

spk_0 Thank you for that very kind introduction. I'm thrilled that you love that book so much.

spk_0 I thought it was tremendous. I'll echo your recommendation of it. I think everybody should read it.

spk_0 It really is, is that good? Yeah, we can't be all China all day. So that book is a good break,

spk_0 hopefully, and everybody's planned Christmas reading maybe.

spk_0 Well, perhaps we should warn them. It is fairly emotionally intense, so maybe... A little heartbreaking.

spk_0 It's a bit heartbreaking. So maybe after the holidays, I'm not sure exactly when it would be appropriate,

spk_0 but do do read it at some point, but be warned that you may shed a few tears.

spk_0 That's a good PSA. All right, so no, just to kind of kick things off, can you share a little bit

spk_0 about your work at Heritage and also just a little bit about why Heritage is concerned with

spk_0 China's activities in Africa? Sure. Happy to. So in your introductory remarks there,

spk_0 you hit on some of the major topics that I track on the continent. You mentioned the geopolitics.

spk_0 I do a lot of sort of broader political issues, especially including the activities of outside

spk_0 actors in Africa, China, of course, being the big one, but there are many other foreign countries

spk_0 that are very, very active on the continent, including American competitors like Russia, Iran,

spk_0 Turkey, who is sort of a front of me maybe, and then we have a lot of allies who are very active

spk_0 there as well, the UAE, the Saudis, France, Japan, I could go on, so I track some of that.

spk_0 I do look at the terrorism issues, which unfortunately show no sign of going away anytime soon. In fact,

spk_0 they're escalating on the continent, so I look at those issues pretty closely.

spk_0 Then yes, I track refugee matters just because of my personal experience in that field when I

spk_0 lived and worked in Kenya, and then crisis to your, often takes up some of my days as well.

spk_0 So why Heritage is so concerned with Chinese government activity in Africa?

spk_0 I think it's because Africa matters, and that's maybe tried to say, but it's maybe a better way to say

spk_0 it is that it matters more than most people realize. Let me say that. It matters to the United States more

spk_0 than most people realize. Africa is well known as a source of natural resources, right? It has about

spk_0 30% of the world's mineral reserves, has the world's largest reserves of seven key minerals,

spk_0 and significant deposits of many others. But there's a couple of critical minerals,

spk_0 like cobalt, for instance, that Africa is by far the largest producer of, and cobalt is of course

spk_0 critical to lithium ion batteries, which are critical to electric vehicles and autonomous vehicles,

spk_0 and other things like that. So a sort of a mineral that is already critical and is only going to

spk_0 become more important. So you have the natural resources side. Just the simple fact that

spk_0 Africa is, has a huge population that's growing very, very rapidly. The number I always like to give

spk_0 is that in about 13 or 14 years from now, Africa's working age population is going to be larger

spk_0 than China's or India's. It'll be over a billion people. By 2100, a third of the world's population

spk_0 will be African. So you have to just, you have to deal with any region that has that much

spk_0 of a population, especially a young population. You're going to have to think through how does the

spk_0 US engage productively there? There's a lot of other things I could say, but maybe for the purposes

spk_0 of this podcast, I'll talk my last point here on why Africa matters to the US is on the international

spk_0 diplomatic stage. And hopefully we can get into this a little bit more throughout the podcast.

spk_0 But Africa is the largest voting block in international forums. And frequently they vote together,

spk_0 not all the time, but often that matters in the context of China because these African countries

spk_0 are perhaps the staunchest allies that China has on the international stage. So on issues of

spk_0 Xinjiang, for instance, many African countries will sign on to letters that are supportive of

spk_0 China's policies in Xinjiang and the genocide there that is unfolding against the Uyghurs.

spk_0 Yeah, it's really discouraging, frankly. The same thing on Hong Kong, they will many

spk_0 African countries will sign on to these letters that are supportive of China's position on Hong Kong,

spk_0 on the South China Sea. They vote for one of the most recent and best examples is they they

spk_0 provided about 30 of 79 yes votes on this Russia and China backed UN cybercrime resolution.

spk_0 That was opposed by US and by the US in many European countries. So when the US wants to accomplish

spk_0 something on the international stage that contravenes what China is trying to do, Africa is a problem

spk_0 for us just to put it very bluntly. And that's something that the US has to be much better about

spk_0 thinking through and working on. Yeah, I think that was incredibly helpful context because you're

spk_0 right, Josh, I feel like Africa does frequently get overlooked as an important strategic player

spk_0 on the international stage and you really just outlined very clearly several reasons why

spk_0 the US government should care and why policymakers should care about what's going on there. But man,

spk_0 that is so concerning over Xinjiang and Hong Kong and Tibet and other things I didn't realize

spk_0 that that was happening. But okay, so for today's episode obviously we're going to be focused on the

spk_0 China-in-Africa database. Can you just share with us a broad overview of this project,

spk_0 you know, what is it track and maybe talk a little bit about the methodologies that you use to

spk_0 collect this data? Sure. So it's very ambitious. Essentially we are, if I had to boil it down

spk_0 into one sentence, I would say that we are tracking every meaningful Chinese engagement with every

spk_0 African country from 1949 until a present. So it's a vast database that we're compiling. We've

spk_0 sort of four broad categories and then I counted all of this before I came on here. We have 37 subcategories

spk_0 and then 19 subcategories. So the subcategories range in everywhere from

spk_0 senior Chinese officials visiting Africa or senior African officials visiting China to

spk_0 Chinese medical teams deployed to Africa to cultural troop visits to port calls by

spk_0 PLA Navy vessels. So we're genuinely trying to get as comprehensive a picture as we possibly can

spk_0 of as I say meaningful Chinese engagement on the continent. That involves a lot of judgment calls,

spk_0 of course, what is meaningful, haven't all that, but but we think once we've got it together, it'll

spk_0 be an extraordinary and unprecedented resource methodology. We look at everything, anything and

spk_0 everything is generally how I describe it. So we have certain sort of core sources, I would say,

spk_0 that we start with depending on what we're researching. We have some very powerful search engines,

spk_0 like Lexus Nexus, for instance, that we use as a standard part of every time we're diving into one

spk_0 of these categories or subcategories. We will do a Lexus Nexus search, for instance, on key words.

spk_0 That's really important because a lot of times some of these things that we're tracking would never

spk_0 make international news just because they're who cares about an administrative building that is

spk_0 built in Botswana for a local township. It's not going to make international news, but we want to

spk_0 know about it because if the Chinese if the contractor was Chinese or if it was funded by the Chinese

spk_0 government in some way, so Lexus Nexus will give us those local papers that might cover these issues.

spk_0 So we tried to be very methodical. We have, as I say, this long list of sources that we will

spk_0 consult as a standard part of our research into any of these categories. Then we have certain

spk_0 sources that are specific to what we're researching. Trade publications are really, really useful,

spk_0 actually. So when I'm looking at hydro power projects or Chinese investment in mining in Africa,

spk_0 there's literally a mining.com or that I receive a newsletter from. I get all these strange news

spk_0 letters now. So trade publications, I just say very helpful. Then Chinese government websites

spk_0 can be quite useful, particularly the embassy websites in each country. Oftentimes, they'll list a

spk_0 lot of not a comprehensive list of the engagements by any means, but some of the highlights that are

spk_0 good starting point. That's really great. It sounds like this is definitely a labor of love because

spk_0 it's so detailed oriented and really helpful. So actually for our previous episode, episode six of

spk_0 this season, we spoke with some folks at the German Marshall Fund who run the authoritarian

spk_0 influence tracker. And it's pretty detailed oriented. But why do you think it's important that

spk_0 we track all these very specific categories of engagement in a single database, especially when

spk_0 there are some of these other existing databases out there that do track some types of Chinese

spk_0 engagement in Africa? Yeah, you're absolutely right. There's some really good databases out there that

spk_0 that we have used to complement what we're doing. So William and Mary has a very good project,

spk_0 the aid data project that I like a lot. And you mentioned the authoritarian influence tracker.

spk_0 And there's some others. And they all take sort of bites at this. But as I've been

spk_0 diving more and more into China and Africa, I had this growing on ease about

spk_0 conclusions I was drawing because I thought to myself, I think these conclusions are correct.

spk_0 But there's so much data that I don't have access to that could potentially inform this

spk_0 conclusion that I'm trying to make. And I looked around the landscape of China and Africa studies,

spk_0 and I said, everybody has this exact same problem. Now, if you're very specifically focused on

spk_0 something like loans, for instance, there is good data. Their organizations have gathered good

spk_0 data on Chinese loans in Africa. So you could feel pretty confident with your source data and

spk_0 conclusions then that you could draw from that. But it would be limited to questions around loans.

spk_0 Because there's so many types of engagement that if you really want a comprehensive picture

spk_0 of what China is up to on the continent, then you have to think about, okay, diplomatic visits.

spk_0 You have to think about, yes, the big ticket items, loans and infrastructure and everything else.

spk_0 But again, medical teams, right, or cultural tube visits or peace arc visits, which is like

spk_0 their floating hospital, because those all matter and they're all part of the relationship.

spk_0 And so I thought, okay, I don't have this resource. I can't find it anywhere, it doesn't exist.

spk_0 So let's create that resource. So I can have more confidence in some of the conclusions I'm

spk_0 drawing about China and Africa. And I can have a better sense of what truly is going on

spk_0 with Chinese engagement and all the continents.

spk_0 Yeah, that's really great. It sounds like you saw a problem and we're like,

spk_0 oh, let's step in and fill in that void. I think that's how a lot of really great research is done.

spk_0 You know, obviously this is still a work in progress, but so far, which countries

spk_0 are receiving the most engagements from China? And why do you think these countries are

spk_0 receiving more attention? Like, is it because they're more willing to accept Chinese aid and investment?

spk_0 Or is it because these countries are more attractive markets for China? Is some

spk_0 some completely different reason for why we see those trends?

spk_0 It's a really diverse landscape when you look across all these different forms of engagement and

spk_0 which countries receive Chinese attention. So for, you know, I mentioned loans, right?

spk_0 Lones are very heavily clustered among a pretty small handful of African countries that get the

spk_0 great majority of Chinese loans. So Angola leads the pack by a long ways. Angola has a lot of

spk_0 oil. So that was, you know, I think it's sort of a pragmatic decision by the Chinese government

spk_0 that we want to really close relationship with this important oil producing country.

spk_0 Although interestingly Nigeria, which is actually the largest oil producer on the continent,

spk_0 doesn't get as many loans. But then you have Ethiopia, another major recipient rather of Chinese loans

spk_0 that doesn't have much in the way of natural resources, but they're still an important country

spk_0 strategically for other reasons. Zambia gets a lot of loans. They're a big copper producer.

spk_0 So there's, you know, you can extrapolate a few trends there as to why China might focus or cluster.

spk_0 It's loan engagement with certain countries. But then you see, for instance, I've mentioned

spk_0 medical teams a couple times. Those do not track with loan engagements, right? Those are

spk_0 much more diffuse. There's many African countries have received Chinese medical teams.

spk_0 Unsurprisingly, countries that have a longer relationship, a longer close relationship with China

spk_0 have received the most teams, right? So Tanzania starting in 1964, started getting medical teams.

spk_0 And they've had 53. And that comprised around 2000 personnel. Algeria, they started getting

spk_0 19, the 1963. They had 23 teams, total so far, and that's about 3000 personnel. So obviously,

spk_0 the longevity of relationship affects some of this. But it's, this is something that we're really

spk_0 interested in diving into and in more detail once we get all this data together because I think

spk_0 there's going to be so many interesting relationships and causalities and correlations that we can

spk_0 tease out of that and try to figure out, okay, what is meaningful here, right? Like what

spk_0 fact there is actually do influence Chinese engagements on the continent?

spk_0 Yeah, that's really helpful. I know that your data also looks into Chinese diplomatic visits

spk_0 to Africa and as well as African diplomatic visits to China. Why is it important for us to track these?

spk_0 This is one of the most interesting to me engagements that we've been tracking. And we're still

spk_0 building this data sets. Some of these individual data sets could on their own be, you know, an

spk_0 entire project because they're so massive. And this is one of them. We have over, we've

spk_0 charted over 1100 visits so far. Wow, really? Yeah, and we are not, and that's just for Chinese

spk_0 visits to Africa. And it doesn't have a lot of the historical visits yet. That's, it's mostly from

spk_0 like the mid 90s onwards, which is fascinating, right? That there have been so many, and these are

spk_0 high level, we're not talking, you know, middle level, these are high level visits.

spk_0 And I think it boils down to the fact that relationships matter. They matter to all countries,

spk_0 right? But maybe particularly to China and to a lot of African countries where just being present

spk_0 showing up is a big big deal. And you know, I bimone, you know, a lot of what China does on the

spk_0 continent as much as anybody, but I also give them credit, right? Because they have invested

spk_0 immensely in their diplomatic relationships on the continent. I think that's negative for US

spk_0 interests, but they're, they're being smart. And I'll just give one example. For about the last

spk_0 30 years, the very first overseas visit that the Chinese foreign minister makes every single year

spk_0 is to an African country. President Xi Jinping, in his two terms, the first overseas visit that he

spk_0 included African countries. So China really believes that these relationships are important clearly.

spk_0 And there are some African heads of state who visited China 7, 8, 9, 10 times during their 10 years.

spk_0 So this is very frequent, very high level engagements. And we need to know about them if we really

spk_0 want to understand, again, this China-Africa relationship. We need to see the history of these

spk_0 engagements because it's hard to quantify exactly how those two relationships affect, you know,

spk_0 the, the, those personal relationships affect the broader relationship, of course, that's

spk_0 impossible probably to quantify. But it is meaningful. And if once we get all this data and we can

spk_0 look back at 50, 60, 70 years of diplomatic exchanges, we can start to have a better idea of

spk_0 where this relationship is headed, what it is now, and what that means for the United States.

spk_0 Yeah, I mean, it sounds like the US is kind of behind the April since China is placing such a

spk_0 high premium on its diplomatic relationships with Africa. I am somewhat curious, like, is there a

spk_0 way for the US to even catch up with the level of engagement? And is that even something that US

spk_0 policymakers are are thinking about? Yeah, I don't think it's, well, no, I think, is the short answer

spk_0 right to the question. Just as an example, you know, President Trump didn't visit the

spk_0 continent once. President Biden has yet to visit the continent. It's still early stages, but,

spk_0 you know, he hasn't visited. There have been very few senior visits from the current administration

spk_0 to the continent. And that's in, now there, there are sort of second tier visits that are pretty

spk_0 frequent, you know, special envoy's go over there a lot, assistant secretary level, people like

spk_0 that are over there fairly frequently. But those really high level premium visits, so to speak,

spk_0 we just are so, so far behind the Chinese on this that I'm not sure we would ever be able to

spk_0 match that level of diplomatic engagement. But it is something we have to be aware of that we are

spk_0 massively behind in this respect. Now, I do want to be cautious about my remarks because we're not

spk_0 behind everywhere in all elements of of this. And this is sort of a trope that popped up,

spk_0 particularly during the last administration where, oh, you know, the US is in retreat and we don't

spk_0 care about Africa and etc., etc. I don't want to get on my soapbox here, but I talk about this

spk_0 all the time because it frustrates me. It's like, no, the US has been very consistently engaged with

spk_0 the continent for decades. And we have very impactful programs that like the President's emergency

spk_0 plan for age relief, PAPFAR came about during George Abbey Bush's administration. That literally

spk_0 saved millions of African lives. The momentum challenge, corporation, feed the future, the power,

spk_0 Africa. So these things have always continued, you know, we've had embassies all across continent,

spk_0 etc., etc. So I don't want to overstate the, you know, the situation the US on the continent.

spk_0 But it is true on this relationships issue, we are way behind and we just, we don't get,

spk_0 it seems like we either don't get the importance of those sorts of visits and building those

spk_0 sorts of relationships or we don't prioritize Africa enough to make those sorts of trips and visits.

spk_0 You know, as you mentioned, I was, you know, in your opening remarks, I was a Peace Corps volunteer,

spk_0 and even in that very limited, you know, scope of work that I was doing, you just see how important it is

spk_0 for, in my case, Xambians where we're out serving for Americans just to be present. And I think that,

spk_0 I think that is true of even at really senior diplomatic levels. So this is, you know, an issue

spk_0 that the US just has to be better about. Yeah, that's an important color in context, I think,

spk_0 yeah, to add to our conversation. So thanks for dwelling on, on US engagement in the region as well.

spk_0 So we've been talking, you know, throughout the, our entire conversation about some of the ways

spk_0 that China is influencing African voting at the UN, for example. Are there any other areas where

spk_0 you see this type of sort of relational coercion or impacts from Chinese investment on African

spk_0 nations and their behavior? Yeah, I think there's no doubt that China, you know, on certain

spk_0 what they consider core issues, right, which is a list that keeps expanding.

spk_0 All right. They will absolutely bully and course African countries, you know, despite all the

spk_0 high flying rhetoric about win-win cooperation and non interference, etc., they will not hesitate

spk_0 to break out the club. A couple examples I always give is, you know, in Amidya had some years ago,

spk_0 had invited the Dalai Lama to visit the country, the Nimbibian President Head and the Chinese

spk_0 embassy went nuclear in an interview after the facts, the Nimbibian President was very open about

spk_0 the threats that he received personally from the Chinese embassy, how they were going to isolate

spk_0 Nimbia in the region, they were going to basically rally all the regional countries to cut it off

spk_0 and annex all these things. So much so much so that the Nimbibian President's time during this

spk_0 interview said that he told the Chinese ambassador that we're not a colony of China. So, you know,

spk_0 on these issues they will break out coercion. They haven't had to do it much in Africa because

spk_0 African countries are generally really pliant as far as, you know, what China wants. I've already

spk_0 mentioned how supported they are of China on a lot of these international diplomatic issues. Another

spk_0 example would be after the Tiananmen Square massacre, African countries were the ones to first rally

spk_0 to China and to help it weather some of the international diplomatic isolation that it was suffering.

spk_0 Blaze Kampurare, who was then president of Burkina Faso, was the first foreign head state to visit China

spk_0 after the Tiananmen Square massacre. So, this relationship is deep and old and so a lot of African

spk_0 governments are very inclined to do what China wants on some of these hot button issues. So, as I say,

spk_0 China doesn't very normally have to reach the cloud and use coercion. It's absolutely happy to do so.

spk_0 I think the coercion that it uses against other countries in the world, if any of the, you know,

spk_0 we've seen it in Eastern Europe, for instance, or even Western Europe at times. Japan has also

spk_0 suffered this. I think African countries notice what happens to those, to those other countries when

spk_0 they run a foul of the tender sensibilities of the Chinese Communist Party. And I think they,

spk_0 they take a lesson from it. Wow, the African country support after Tiananmen is just very, very

spk_0 shocking, but also a helpful reminder that China's influence in Africa is nothing new. We just

spk_0 weren't always necessarily watching it very closely. Can you highlight some of the unique challenges

spk_0 that are at play when collecting data on China or the Chinese government's activities? Do you think

spk_0 there are any challenges that are different from other forms of data collection?

spk_0 Yeah, one of the big ones is how opaque some of these transactions are specifically around

spk_0 loans and contracts for construction, you know, infrastructure construction, for instance. It's

spk_0 really, really hard to get your hands on these loans, including for African citizens who's

spk_0 taxpayer dollars or paying for these things. That's by design. That's how Chinese companies and

spk_0 the Chinese government like to operate. They're in authoritarian systems, so they think

spk_0 citizens exist to serve the government, not the other way around. And so why should citizens of

spk_0 any country be given insight into how the government is operating? I think that's sort of the general

spk_0 philosophical milieu that drives some of this. And unfortunately, there's a lot of authoritarian

spk_0 governments in Africa as well that have a somewhat similar perspective. The opacity also helps

spk_0 disguise corruption, which again, we all know a lot of African countries really struggle with this.

spk_0 Some do quite well. There's some that do fairly well, but others many really struggle with corruption.

spk_0 You know, if you're undertaking these billion dollar projects behind a veil, that facilitates you

spk_0 skimming off the top. So that's certainly a challenge. Another challenge I'd say is that

spk_0 African media is there's some really great newspapers and media houses on the continent,

spk_0 but if you compare it to the United States, for instance, there's far fewer. There's not nearly

spk_0 the density of African media on the continent. So a lot of these issues that we're trying to track

spk_0 just never pop up in local media, and they certainly don't pop up in the international press either.

spk_0 So that's really a challenge. That's why I'm looking at this bookshelf right now, full of

spk_0 books written in like, you know, the 50s and 60s by various scholars looking at the China Africa

spk_0 relationship. So whenever I find a book like that, I mean, we buy it and mine it for anything because

spk_0 sometimes books that were written 45 years ago might mention some element of China African

spk_0 engagement that wouldn't be commented upon today. So that's challenge. You know, we look at Chinese

spk_0 websites quite a lot, and they can be really clunky and hard to navigate. Some of them, not all of them,

spk_0 but some are. You know, you'll save a link and then a day later, you'll click on it and it's

spk_0 already dead sort of thing. So that's one of the challenges as well. I think the biggest challenge is

spk_0 just the sheer volume of data we're collecting. I mean, it feels almost infinite sometimes.

spk_0 And so you do have to be really disciplined and just chip away at it in a systematic way.

spk_0 Otherwise, it can be really overwhelming. Yeah, well, you know, the trend that you were mentioning

spk_0 about, like links being there one day and gone the next, we have heard that from so many people.

spk_0 I mean, interviewing people who are covering a whole range of issues, you know, over the past two

spk_0 seasons of this podcast and it is so common. And, you know, I can't help, but it's definitely not

spk_0 unintentional. Yeah, sort of concluded that as well. You know, I don't want to be too cynical,

spk_0 but it, it happens so frequently. I was like, man, this, maybe this is a feature or not a bug.

spk_0 Yeah, exactly. So I am curious as to whether or not you've received any reaction or responses

spk_0 from the Chinese government to heritage's research and findings. I know the report is not out yet,

spk_0 but perhaps on some of your other research areas. Yeah. So one of the projects I did that

spk_0 sort of launched this project was an examination of all the sensitive government buildings that

spk_0 Chinese companies have built in Africa. I just meant that to be a one-off report. I thought it

spk_0 was a really interesting and totally under explored or unexplored area. And then it sort of started

spk_0 being thinking more grandly about what we could achieve once I put together that data set.

spk_0 So I did get that data set and I found 186 confirmed sensitive government buildings that

spk_0 Chinese companies have built or the Chinese and or their Chinese government has funded.

spk_0 There's many more, even since that report came out I found others. I bet the real numbers in

spk_0 the 300s I wouldn't be surprised, but just because of these challenges we were just talking about,

spk_0 you know, it's really hard to tease out this data. But these were everything from,

spk_0 I mean, there are presidential residences and ministries of foreign affairs and parliament buildings.

spk_0 I mean, these are really sensitive government installations that Chinese

spk_0 companies are building. And Chinese companies built the African Union headquarters, which famously

spk_0 turned out to be riddled with microphones and the walls and the Huawei provided ICT system

spk_0 was uploading all of its data to Shanghai every morning. So my thesis was that probably at least

spk_0 some of these other government buildings that I found were also being similarly compromised

spk_0 by a Chinese surveillance. I released that report then during the weekly press conference

spk_0 that the Chinese spokesman for the Ministry of Affairs holds. He was given, he was asked a question

spk_0 by a Chinese journalist. I put that in air quotes because these are all government

spk_0 functionaries essentially or rather they're, it's all very stage managed, right? Like no one's asking any

spk_0 unexpected or hard-hitting questions. So this was obviously a pre-planned question and

spk_0 and the question was about the report and you know, so predictably, you know, the spokesman attacked

spk_0 the reports and said some unflattering things about heritage and about me and how I'd be clowned

spk_0 of myself essentially. But I really took that as a great encouragement. Yeah, that's a badge of

spk_0 honor. Well, because and it sort of signaled to me that wow, they really don't want this sort of

spk_0 information out there and why is that? And that means I should really keep going here because you

spk_0 know, there's reports written about China, negative reports written about China out of the US every

spk_0 week basically. And you know, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs doesn't bother to attack most of

spk_0 them. I'm sure they've attacked others, but but usually they just ignore them. So the fact that

spk_0 they actually, you know, were pieved enough about this to challenge it. Again, I took as sort of

spk_0 signal that this was, I should pursue this in other areas. Yeah, that's excellent. And I feel like

spk_0 that's actually great segue into our next question because once this database is out, it seems

spk_0 like there will be real opportunities for additional research coming out of the data that you

spk_0 collect, not only for you to do, but perhaps for some of our listeners who, you know, many of whom are

spk_0 a part of the policymaking community, the thing to community academia. What aspects of China's

spk_0 engagement in Africa are under researched or perhaps merit some additional attention?

spk_0 This would be a very long list. I would, yeah, I would, I would, I just mentioned, right, like

spk_0 surveillance and the potential of Chinese surveillance. I think it's an almost, almost sure thing. It's

spk_0 very hard to get proof of these sorts of things because by design, they're disguised and I can't go

spk_0 to a Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Africa and start sweeping its walls for microphones, right?

spk_0 So it's hard to get the real smoking gun evidence, but I do think that their surveillance piece is

spk_0 really, really interested and very few people are looking at it or writing about it. The other

spk_0 one I would say is related, but data mining on the continent, I think is a fascinating

spk_0 area of inquiry that should be getting a lot more attention. I think it's very likely, and I've

spk_0 written an essay about this. It's very likely that the Chinese government is, is, you know, benefiting

spk_0 from data that Chinese companies are collecting on a continent. We know that some of the

spk_0 very same companies that are involved in creating the extraordinary surveillance system that

spk_0 exists in Xinjiang today are also active in Africa. And they, including some that work on

spk_0 artificial intelligence and facial recognition, things of that nature. So I think it's very possible

spk_0 that the information that they're gathering on the continent is refining their artificial

spk_0 intelligence capabilities because the way that you improve AI is by basically pouring as much

spk_0 data as you possibly can into it, but also diversity of data is important so it can learn,

spk_0 right? And I get it can learn from these differences that it sees. And Africa is a great source of

spk_0 very different facial data, genomic data, than what the Chinese government can collect in China itself.

spk_0 So I think it's very possible that a lot of this data that's being, is almost certainly being

spk_0 collected, is being used as I say to refine Chinese companies and the Chinese government's

spk_0 artificial intelligence capabilities, which then are being used in places like Xinjiang.

spk_0 You know, you could extrapolate this out even further and say that

spk_0 because of the diversity of genomic data, for instance, that China can gather in Africa,

spk_0 it can help their AI distinguish non-Han faces better, right? Because so much of the data that

spk_0 China can gather in China is Han, is ethically Han. They do have some minorities like the

spk_0 Uighurs, for instance, but not that many. So, you know, part, this data might be that they're

spk_0 gathering in Africa might be really useful for detecting minorities in China, for instance,

spk_0 if, if indeed, they can use the data to refine their AI. And there's many other obviously applications

spk_0 of artificial intelligence in the military sphere, in the economic sphere, et cetera, et cetera.

spk_0 So I think that is really under explored area. And I hope that other people, there were a few

spk_0 few people looking at a little bit, but I hope more dive in there.

spk_0 Yeah, I mean, that last point that you were making about how they're using private data, data of

spk_0 private citizens in Africa to refine the use of their technologies, especially on people with

spk_0 darker skin tones, is horrifying. I remember reading a report about that for my own work on Shenzhen

spk_0 and China's, you know, blatant persecution of the Uighurs that this was a part of their work.

spk_0 And it's just they're not only, you know, exporting the way that they're using that surveillance

spk_0 technology abroad, but they're then violating citizens of other countries' rights in doing so.

spk_0 It's just really horrifying. So yeah, I'm glad that you raised that point.

spk_0 Yeah, and I should clarify by saying, I don't have proof that this is exactly what's happening,

spk_0 right? But when you sort of look at all of the evidence and you consider the nature of the

spk_0 Chinese regime and how they operate, how we know they operate in other spheres, then it starts to

spk_0 become a really compelling case, I think that this is indeed what's happening. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

spk_0 Well, Josh, I have one final question for you. I'd love to hear from you what actions you would

spk_0 like to see in response to the findings of your reports. Obviously, this one is not yet out,

spk_0 but once it is out, how can policymakers really maximize the use of this data?

spk_0 Yeah, I think there's a ton of ways here. Fundamentally, and I think this has been a theme of my

spk_0 comments. Fundamentally, I think it'll help just by helping us better understand the actual

spk_0 contours and nature of this relationship between Beijing and these various African countries.

spk_0 That alone is a win from a policymaking perspective, because if you're trying to address a problem,

spk_0 which the US is trying to do in the context of Chinese influence in Africa, you need to understand

spk_0 the nature of the problem as thoroughly as you can. So again, because we lack that sort of holistic

spk_0 picture of Chinese engaging on the constant, that means our prognosis and our prescriptions for

spk_0 solving a problem are going to be very vulnerable to mistakes. So as we can get a better picture and

spk_0 a better grasp when I'm standing, what's actually happening in this relationship, that should just

spk_0 by having that data, as long as people look at it, it should have a lot of effects in American

spk_0 policymaking, because we better understand the nature of the problem. That means we can make better

spk_0 policies for addressing it. So that's sort of the baseline for me. Something I've argued for

spk_0 a number of years now is that the US needs to better focus its engagement in Africa with countries

spk_0 where we can actually make headway for our interests. When you look around the content, there are just

spk_0 certain countries where it's just not very useful or productive for the United States to engage with

spk_0 them because for whole variety of reasons, we're spread too thin on the ground. The reality is that

spk_0 the US is unlikely to ever commit a lot of resources to Africa relative to other regions were involved

spk_0 in. I think that's true, at least for the foreseeable future. So we have to be really discerning about

spk_0 which countries have a sufficient capacity for good governance, say, so that we can productively

spk_0 work with them. This project comes into that in that it can help us discern which countries are

spk_0 less beholden to China or have a shallower relationship with Beijing that maybe we can

spk_0 make a little bit of progress for our own interests. And then this will be opened up to other

spk_0 researchers. There's a whole bunch of interesting analyses that can be done once the data is all

spk_0 together. What does an African for instance, something I was thought about as an analysis I want

spk_0 to do is when an African country gets on to the UN Human Rights Committee, does it receive more

spk_0 Chinese engagement of various kinds or is there some sort of ramp up once it's

spk_0 announced that this particular African country will be getting onto the Human Rights Council.

spk_0 What is the relationship between achieving BRI status for instance and benefits? So does signing

spk_0 on to BRI for an African country actually results in increased trade or FDI or diplomat visits

spk_0 or construction activity or cooperation agreements or whatever. So really we're just

spk_0 fundamentally which types of Chinese engagement are the most meaningful and which

spk_0 African actions will elicit Chinese engagement because there's a lot of noise out there, there are a lot

spk_0 of things that go on that are important but maybe not critical to determining how China will

spk_0 will act or how African countries will act. So I think having that data sets, opening it up to

spk_0 researchers, the heritage team will be doing a lot of its own analyses, hopefully that we can tease

spk_0 out some of those really really important elements and that will just give us a better understanding

spk_0 like I say of the relationship, how the US should respond and how we can predict where some of these

spk_0 relationships might be going. Well thank you so much Josh. I think you've really given us just a

spk_0 broader understanding of how Africa fits into our policies towards China and fits into the

spk_0 policy landscape. For our listeners we will be sure to link to the report that Josh referenced

spk_0 and some of the work that he's done so you can learn more about what he's doing but

spk_0 thank you again Josh for for joining us today and also for giving us a sneak peek into

spk_0 this forthcoming database which you know we hope our listeners will check out once it's

spk_0 once it's available. Do we know when it's going to be available? I know it'll be in 2022

spk_0 with some time but yeah I expect it'll be later in the year 2022. Okay. Just again because of the

spk_0 tale of what we're doing here and it takes pretty sophisticated database as well to manage all this

spk_0 so it's it's you know a question of getting the data and then how do you you know the tools you

spk_0 need to manage it and present it in an accessible way. So there's a lot to be done but we're

spk_0 cranking away at it. Well good luck with that and I know our listeners will all benefit from that for sure.

spk_0 Thank you to our listeners if you've joined us through the entirety of season two

spk_0 we're just so grateful for your tuning in to this podcast. As always China Uncovered is a part of our

spk_0 broader China transparency efforts where we are just seeking to peel back the layers on all of the

spk_0 CCP's bad activities that they're engaging in all across the globe. Please be sure to check out our

spk_0 China Transparency Report at our website which of course there will be a link to the website

spk_0 into the report in our show notes and thank you once again for tuning in to China Uncovered.

spk_0 We hope you enjoyed this second season and we look forward to hopefully a season three in fall

spk_0 2022 wishing you and yours just a happy Christmas and a happy new year so don't forget to subscribe

spk_0 to China Uncovered on Apple Podcasts Spotify iHeartRadio or your favorite podcast app and if you

spk_0 enjoyed this show please be sure to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. We look forward to seeing you next

spk_0 year. China Uncovered is brought to you by more than half a million members of the Heritage

spk_0 Foundation sound designed by Lauren Evans Mark Geine and John Pop.

Sneak Peek into The Heritage Foundation's China in Africa Database featuring Joshua Meservey

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