Show 72 - Mania for Subjugation II

Interactive Transcript

spk_0 What you're about to hear is part two of a multi-part series on Alexander the Great.

spk_0 If you missed part one and need to catch that first, we recommend it.

spk_0 If you didn't hear part one, but don't mind, you know, starting a story in the middle,

spk_0 well, please feel free to keep going.

spk_0 And for the rest of you, without further ado, part two of Mania for Subjugation.

spk_0 The Sumbers of 1941, a date which will live in infamy.

spk_0 It's history.

spk_0 The one small step for Mania for the fire, please prevent.

spk_0 The events.

spk_0 The figure, the figure, in the words, Ish bin Aing D'Alina.

spk_0 Mr. Robachos, tear down this wall.

spk_0 The drama.

spk_0 I welcome this kind of examination because people have got to know whether or not they're

spk_0 presidents of the two.

spk_0 I'm not a crook.

spk_0 If we dig deep in our history and our doctrine, and remember that we are not descended from

spk_0 fearful men.

spk_0 It's hardcore history.

spk_0 One of the things that I find terrifying about life is how fortune can just turn on a dime.

spk_0 I think it's more of a cynical pessimist's way of looking at that sort of dynamic than an optimist.

spk_0 An optimist would say, thank goodness life can turn on a dime.

spk_0 You could hit the lot of readamore, change everything, wouldn't it?

spk_0 So that's a certain kind of personality, maybe.

spk_0 But I have more of the person who just says, okay, gosh, just protect me from a bolt from the blue.

spk_0 What's a great term, a bolt from the blue?

spk_0 Protect me from something that just instantly changes my world and turns it upside down.

spk_0 Probably for the worst, right?

spk_0 And this bolt from the blue aspect of our existence is operating on every level, right?

spk_0 At the very, your individual levels, I think it happened in your life.

spk_0 We are soft, squishy beings and doesn't take much for us to get hurt.

spk_0 I mean, so things happen all the time, right?

spk_0 Illness is a thing strike a bolt from the blue in your personal life.

spk_0 But this works on the giant super macro scale too.

spk_0 Something happens and all of our worlds are thrown in a completely different direction as quickly as a billiard

spk_0 ball caroms off another billiard ball and changes its trajectory entirely.

spk_0 I mean, if you're old enough to have consciously lived through something like the 9-11 attacks, you know what that's like.

spk_0 That's wake up in one world, go to bed that night in a completely different world and know it.

spk_0 And Pearl Harbor was that way too, just to take a couple of American things.

spk_0 But this is so common every people on the planet can name historical bolts from the blue that had that same sort of an effect in their world.

spk_0 It's not uncommon at all, right?

spk_0 In your personal life all the way up to global affairs.

spk_0 And in a lot of cases, we should remember a bolt from the blue that impacts global affairs can still be a bolt from the blue at ground zero on an individual level too.

spk_0 I mean, to just go back to the 9-11 attacks, we're all affected by the 9-11 attacks.

spk_0 The minute it happens, right?

spk_0 Your sense of stability is upset.

spk_0 You don't know what's going to happen next. We're all a bit traumatized, but the families of people who died in the 9-11 attacks, well they get all of that that we get.

spk_0 And then they get the impact on ground zero in their family where they've suffered, you know, a bolt from the blue where the ripples of pain will continue to emanate in their individual world for a generation two or three, right?

spk_0 For 20-year-old Alexander III, right? The future Alexander the Great as we will know him.

spk_0 It's very possible watching his dad get stabbed to death publicly in front of a crowd of for the most part important people to watch that from a few feet away.

spk_0 Well, that has the potential to be both those things, doesn't it? Because obviously you take out the most important person in the history of that region if we're talking about sort of the great man theory of history or the just in the geopolitical kings conquest, you know, politics, re-alpolitik and all that sort of stuff.

spk_0 If you're taking out the most important figure potentially in the history of the region, if not well one of the top ones, certainly the most important during this time period, you take out this guy, you change the whole world.

spk_0 I mean, you tried to find other people in history where it would have been this big. Well, what about Hitler in 1940 not to compare the two in a moral sense, but I mean you take out out of Hitler in 1940 or 1939 and you can't even fantasize on how things are different.

spk_0 And you could say the same thing about someone like, you know, Franklin Roosevelt or Churchill too, and no question had those two died, get died of a heart attack or something at the start of the second world war.

spk_0 A bazillion things change in major ways, but those systems of diffused power and sorts of internal rules of succession and all that would have fared much better, right? The US is just going to plug a different president into the White House.

spk_0 And it's going to be different, but in a lot of ways it's not you take Hitler from the leadership position of Germany right at the start of the second world war and you can't even imagine what happens.

spk_0 And the situation in Macedonia when Philip II is murdered is much more similar to that. It has to do with the fact that so much power is wrapped up in one person, right?

spk_0 And the system itself isn't really set up for what happens without that person.

spk_0 They've created this intricate web that really relies on them being the spider in the middle of it for it to all work and you take the spider out and then what do you have?

spk_0 So that is a 9-11 moment, right? The minute it happens everybody watching it knows that everything has changed. They don't know how it's changed.

spk_0 And I get this sense after Philip's murder that everyone's walking around the way we were walking around for the next week after the 9-11 attacks.

spk_0 We all had like little swirls in our eyes and we just couldn't believe or absorb what had happened and it was like everyone was experiencing this at the same time.

spk_0 And I get the feeling that it must have been similar, especially in the area of the assassination, you know, with the people who saw this.

spk_0 And one of them, of course, being Alexander and I keep trying to figure out, you know, because this is the side of the story where it's a 9-11 attack for Alexander also, maybe even again more than for most people, because now he's in the spotlight in terms of the most likely person to succeed.

spk_0 But it's a personal one. It's dad. Dad just got shanked in front of me.

spk_0 Do you get PTSD from that? Just wondering. And the reason I ask is because there's a couple of historians that have put forward the theory that maybe Alexander during his lifetime was suffering from PTSD.

spk_0 But most of the time they draw it back to the many horrific experiences he had in a career of personal combat. This would be at the very beginning basically.

spk_0 But I mean, if I told you that some person on the other side of the room, you know, whispered in the rear, you know, that poor guy, his dad was murdered in front of him, wouldn't you expect that this would be a monumental, you know, milestone moment negatively speaking for that person in their life, wouldn't you think they'd be visiting and getting some psychiatric care, maybe for the rest of their life, tie any major problems they have to that certainly could say PTSD right watching your parents murdered.

spk_0 I mean, that's a superhero origin story, isn't it? That's how you get Batman.

spk_0 But a psychologically dark as the comic book origin story of Batman is right little boy sees his parents murdered in front of him by a criminalist darkest that is think about how much more sinister it gets.

spk_0 If the person who killed Bruce Wayne's parents leading to the creation of the, you know, avenging dark night that sometimes is a little bit psychologically unbalanced.

spk_0 If the person that killed Bruce Wayne's parents was Bruce Wayne, if he killed his own parents in that lead to the creation of Batman, that's a even more psychologically dark and twisted tail, isn't it?

spk_0 And in the Alexander story, the reason it matters is because Alexander is a pretty different person in our eyes in the way you might see him, isn't he?

spk_0 If he killed his own father, can you get PTSD witnessing your dad's murder if you orchestrated it, that just popped into my head.

spk_0 But I mean, think about the way you'd see this guy differently. One version of him is a victim.

spk_0 Jesus dad killed in front of him had nothing to do with it. You know, burns an anger against the people that did this, all that kind of thing, right?

spk_0 Legitimately, inherits basically dads, Ferrari and everything else.

spk_0 The other versions seen through a more manendas like lens where, you know, Alexander is the kind of guy who'd whack his own dad, right?

spk_0 And it leads us to a basic thing. I think we should bear in mind throughout this entire story. I want to think of each of us as a filmmaker.

spk_0 I'd love it if you would make the definitive Alexander the Great movie, right?

spk_0 And if you did so, you're going to run into times in this guy's life where it's a blank spot or it's like a fork in the road. He can do this or he can do that.

spk_0 And you don't know which he did or you don't know why a person like yours truly has the freedom to say one historian says this or another person thinks that.

spk_0 But if you're making the movie, you have to just decide you have to fill into blank spots.

spk_0 And the way you do that leads at the end of your movie to a different Alexander, a different Alexander than the person who's also making their movie but made different choices at the, you know, 10 or 15 crucial spots in this guy's story where you don't know what happened.

spk_0 In the introduction to the landmark area in which we're just about to introduce as a source in this story, Cambridge, class, assist Paul cartilage explains that everyone's got their own version of Alexander because they fill in the gaps their own way.

spk_0 And have throughout history and it may account for why there's so many different versions of this guy as we said it runs the gamut from on one extreme.

spk_0 You know, he's this philosopher king on the other extreme. He's a drunken genocidal butcher and you know everything in between. Well, what accounts for that? Maybe how you fill in the blanks.

spk_0 Some people will come back to me and say why even have a story like this if you don't know this much about the guy, but there's a lot you do know about the guy.

spk_0 So it's one of those deals where an attention history where you just sort of have to piece together what you can and as we said, there can be different end results.

spk_0 In your movie, do you decide he killed Philip or do you decide he didn't that's a key difference right there.

spk_0 And this is perhaps the first major moment in his life where we run into one of those things.

spk_0 But the next stage of what happens is also unknown the stage where he goes from watching his father bleeding out in his supposedly white tunic there on the ground to the time when he becomes acknowledged as king because as we said in the first part of the show that is not a given in the macadonian royal world.

spk_0 And apparently anyone who's got a connection sort of to the royal family bloodline can somehow plausibly be inserted into the job and it's always been something that outside powers used to keep macadonia divided they find an outsider branch of the macadonian royal family and then back that person as a you know competing puppet sort of thing.

spk_0 So it's not a given that Alexander is going to get this gig it would have been a given maybe a year or two before but remember there was this breach in the royal family right Philip marries is super young bride supposedly for love.

spk_0 Then we have that story which I love because it brings in what I like to call potentially the most important cocktail party in world history when you know in a drunken macadonian cocktail party the uncle of the bride at a list who will feature in this story momentarily.

spk_0 Supposedly gives that toast right where he says hopefully this will bring a legitimate air to the macadonian throne while Alexander the legitimate air is in the room which leads to are you calling the ambassador throwing goblets at each other and supposedly the moment where a drunken Philip gets up off his couch you know pulls his sword and goes after Alexander falls on his face and Alexander others that wonderful line of variation of which is look everybody here's the guy it's about to cross from Europe into Asia.

spk_0 And he can't get from one couch to another love that story who knows if that's true but apparently this moment where Alexander and his mother flee back to the mom's home country is people seem pretty sure about that.

spk_0 And of course she comes from a place where the macadonian sort of prejudice and bigotry ironically the same sort of prejudice and bigotry some Greeks had toward macadonia sort of sees it as a land where there's well not hicks for sure people who are just sort of you know.

spk_0 Country bumpkins but also sorceresses magic vampires you know all those kinds of things and sort of makes the case for what atlas was saying when he said you know we need a legitimate air whose macadonian on both sides who won't go fleeing back to the land of vampires and sorcerers you know when the going gets tough.

spk_0 But we know that Alexander did that that's a sign that there was some sort of breach in the family this wedding where Philip dies was in part and attempt to sort of publicly heal that breach.

spk_0 So where do things stand when Philip's taken out right that's the unexpected moment so 9 11 day where people are walking around with stars in their eyes going what now everybody's in shock.

spk_0 And that's where sort of you know how quickly you move in a situation like this is the it's the last second musical chairs games when the music stops and everybody sort of scrambles and whoever can sort of a mass the public support the quickest wins and the reason you want to win in the game.

spk_0 Like this is because the losers often are just liquidated.

spk_0 But whatever Alexander's situation at that moment it's clear he's still got the inside track and apparently he's got this relationship with an important macadonian general named Antipater which as we said in the last show.

spk_0 Antipater sort of we don't have the real information but sort of just like throws his arms around Alexander says this is the guy and some other people do to here's the way.

spk_0 Alexander historian the late great a b buzzword put it in conquest and empire he said quote the first few days of Alexander's reign must have been among the most critical of his career unfortunately no connected accounts survives of them there are scraps of epitome and random flashbacks from later history but most of the crucial details are irretrievably lost there is infinite scope for speculation and imaginative reconstruction.

spk_0 But the sources themselves allow very little to be said we must be prepared to admit our ignorance however galling that may be he continues at first there was turmoil Alexander's friends gathered round him and occupied the palace already armed for battle there was every reason to expect trouble given the

spk_0 Dynastic troubles of Phillips last year the family and supporters of atalus will certainly not have welcomed his a session and there were other figures who might oppose him or form a focus for opposition end quote.

spk_0 To me this whole moment in time sort of sounds like a coup vibe doesn't it like if you've ever seen news footage or red stories or talk to people who've been in or maybe been in a military coup somewhere there's there's a vibe for a while where no one knows who's in charge.

spk_0 Where everybody's very like on pins and needles where the various sides that might have a chance at at the power are sort of jockeying either openly or behind the scenes because the stakes are huge and everyone knows it because the losers in this game are going to be liquidated.

spk_0 So when a b-boss worth says that Alexander and his friends arm themselves run to the palace which is sort of the seat of legitimate authority so you're trying to sort of claim the ground around the throne one gets a sort of a sense of

spk_0 an up in the air kind of moment and then the ancient sources don't give us timelines they don't say three hours later or the next day they so no one knows one gets a sense that everything happens really quickly though and I have a theory about this and the theory is that there is so much invested right now in this expedition that's already started right we mentioned earlier.

spk_0 Philip and the Greeks have declared war on the Persians they've sent 10,000 men there is an advanced force which ironically is commanded by two guys one of whom is at the list the other is his father in law Parminian so

spk_0 this is going to get a little family oriented in a second but when you have to think of the professor who tried to get me to think about this all the time think about the the stuff that's going on that you know is going on but no one has to tell you is going on right think of the investment.

spk_0 In something like this you're going to take an army of 30 or 40,000 people with animals and you're going to send it hundreds and hundreds maybe I'm I we don't know how far you're going to send it far away and you're going to feed it every day maybe you can live up the land here there maybe you can steal from the locals maybe you got to have supply dumps you got to have merchants you got a people who put their money their reputation

spk_0 their livelihoods on the line there's a lot invested from the top levels in society down to the ground levels in society on this ongoing effort and just because the top guy is gone things kind of have to go on or a lot of people are going to really suffer now that doesn't mean a new leader can't make a hundred and eight degree turn into something different

spk_0 but it means if you're a general like Antipater who's probably one of those guys who's got a lot riding on this and you see Alexander and you've already seen how gifted this guy is you know you've done a little work with him you've watched him drawing up Antipater is going to be a guy who stretches from the rain before Alexander to after Alexander he's kind of an interesting dude in this whole story.

spk_0 If you see this moment in history up in the air and you're in a position to sort of put the hammer down and stop it right we can stop this whole cool moment we can stop this whole up in the air moment I'm going to put my armor on Alexander I'm going to bring him to the troops I'm going to say this is the guy which is kind of what the sources suggest he did.

spk_0 And before you know it the sources have him out there as the king involving himself in affairs of state in that royal role we don't exactly know how we get from one place to the other but there you go by the time he takes over he's got all kinds of challenges because as you might imagine the news that Philip the second has been assassinated spreads like a shock wave and I compare the difference between the way news and the other.

spk_0 The news is today in the way information travels and is picked up on the receiving end to the way it traveled back then it probably traveled more quickly than we assume right bad news especially travels fast but nowadays if a major world leaders assassinated the vast majority of people connected in any way shape or form to anything electronic are going to know about this within 24 hours probably going to know about it you know within an hour or two after it happens no matter how far away from the event you are.

spk_0 But like in this time period any news would have had to spread by horse or foot I think about it like a nuclear explosion where ground zero happens where Philip is assassinated and then emanating from that spot in the circular sort of pattern is the shock wave and the shock wave is the news and the news hits you know close to Macedonia first and radiates outward in different places receive this news at different times in the minute they receive the news whatever damage or destabilization or good things.

spk_0 Is going to happen from that news happens then so think about like a tsunami and how the tsunami will radiate outward from the earthquake and hit different beaches at different speeds and different times so this news might reach the before it reaches Athens but when it reaches anywhere you know Persia for example it has whatever destabilizing or you know good effect it's going to have in this case.

spk_0 What's bad news for Macedonia is great news for all the people Macedonia dominates and as soon as they get that news they react to it.

spk_0 And generally the reaction is one of joy and opportunity take Athens for instance I love Athens as everyone does because they kind of remind us in some ways of ourselves right the best of them in the worst of them are kind of the best in the worst of us and you know when it's.

spk_0 Philosophy and culture and learning and art and all these kinds of things you know you justify at least that they're in God you know great is our way amazing you know height of society that you look at their craving this in their corruption and they're gluttony and they're there I mean they're just.

spk_0 The best in the worst of us right you see it on display here because remember these are people.

spk_0 Who just told Philip the second hours from his assassination in public the emissary saying if anybody were to try to hurt you they couldn't get any sanctuary in Athens send him right back and now when the news hits Athens there's an entirely different reaction to that and by the way

spk_0 Demostinese who if you're looking at this from an Athenian perspective is a little like a Jedi night fighting to keep you know the old Republic stable to the Darth Vader threat that he's been fighting against for more than a decade and now Darth Vader is dead

spk_0 when the news hits Athens Demostinese has already heard about it. So this is from the ancient world say he had a spy in Macedonia and the spy gets to Demostinese before the news gets to Athens that Philip is dead and he breaks his period of mourning over his dead daughter where you're supposed to sort of dress down and sort of seclude yourself not take part in politics or public affairs and boom he's out of the house dressed to party it sounds like a.

spk_0 Like you know flamboyant clothes telling anyone who will listen that he has had a dream that Athens is about to be blessed with something wonderful and then the news hits that Philip is dead and Athens explodes in a good way if you're looking for something fun to do on an evening in Athens and your nice teenager say what's going on in town while the party starts as soon as the news hits as soon as the shock wave from the nuclear explosion hits in Plutarchs

spk_0 lives when he's talking about the life of Demostinese he brings this moment up and by the way Plutarch is writing a book of sort of moral judgment so he'll weigh in and he doesn't think the way the Athenians reacted here reflects to wonderfully on them because as he points out you know you just honored this guy me the Athenians lost him at the battle of carony Philip killed a thousand of them what did they do because he was rather lenient afterwards they put a pistachio to him right and like we said

spk_0 at the event where he dies they're saying don't worry you know we're on your side and the minute he's dead well Plutarch doesn't think it looks too good for the Athenians and writes quote for my own part I cannot say that the behavior of the Athenians on this occasion was wise or honorable to crown themselves with garlands and a sacrifice to the gods for the death of a prince who in the midst of his success and victories when they were a conquered people had used them with so much clemency and humanity

spk_0 for besides provoking fortune it was a base thing and unworthy in itself to make him a citizen of Athens and to pay him honors while he lived and yet as soon as he fell by another's hand to set no bounds for their

spk_0 jolly to insult over him dead and a sing triumphant songs of victory as if by their own valor they had vanquished him and quote

spk_0 but Athens is only one of a bunch of places both in the Greek world and out of the Greek world that sees Philip's death as soon as they get the news as the equivalent of a starting gun going off saying now is the time to throw off

spk_0 the Macedonian domination what's more who can blame them for thinking that everything's going to go back to the way it was I mean thereafter what did we say in part one thereafter the status quo anti Philip

spk_0 right the way things were before Philip screwed up everything right the only people he was good for were the Macedonians everybody else you know are under his thumb and now they're not

spk_0 and it's not that the Macedonians are so powerful most of these people think remember they've got what we would call today bigotry and prejudice and all those sorts of things toward them especially the Greeks can't even get a good slave from there remember that's what they used to say

spk_0 and if you look at things like that in your mind the Macedonians were how they were for so long because that's just who they are and the variable that was weird here was Philip and with Philip gone everything's going to return back to normal

spk_0 isn't it this period when Alexander first takes over sort of a great unknown for the rest of the Greek and Macedonian world I mean everyone knows how great the Macedonian army is and how great the generals are

spk_0 but they don't know about this kid is 20 year old kid and what he brings to the table on his first stage in Alexander's career is about showing them

spk_0 and you can see that they don't think much of him because de Mastinese begins to work against him and the Macedonians the way he worked against his dad starts taking Persian money allegedly to start this process of returning

spk_0 Macedonia to the way it's supposed to be right let's destabilize their government let's you know bring other royal factions to the fore let's make alliances with you know people that already don't like Alexander and

spk_0 Demosthenes an ancient source says Demosthenes was telling I think it was the Persians that Alexander's a boy he's a child he's a simpleton is what my more than 100 year old

spk_0 dried and translation calls am I ready more recent accounting of that line and it translates the word instead of simpleton to boob so Demosthenes is out telling people don't worry I mean sure Philip was this august guy but his kids 20 years old he's a child he's a boob don't worry about him

spk_0 and then Demosthenes starts reaching out or at least the sources say to to some of the other big Macedonian generals and try to get them involved too right let's make it everybody against Alexander including Macedonian power brokers you know in that state

spk_0 so you have this inflection moment now in this guy's life in the Alexander the great story that if you're doing a movie and you want to make this guy a superhero instead of a historical figure a superhero from history you have this time now where it's really the first moment where he's been sort of forced to conceal under a secret identity his super powers and hide them this is the moment where he unleashes them for the first time because he has to survive

spk_0 I mean let's recall that unless this guy was responsible for his father's death somehow he was as caught by surprise as anybody so all of a sudden in his 9-11 moment unprepared he didn't have time to sort of mentally gear himself up for this he's in Philip's position and at that moment because Philips gone now everybody decides it's a good time to you know rebel at the same time even within his own circle of

spk_0 you know Macedonians even within maybe his extended family he's got people that are going to turn against him so he's got a bunch of things he's got to do just to get back to where his father was initially right he's got to control his own people first and he begins to do that by killing some of them

spk_0 it starts at his dad's funeral which seems to happen pretty darn soon after Alexander takes over

spk_0 they'll drag a couple of people from you know another side of the family and execute them right at Philips tomb

spk_0 one source also has them crucifying the corpse of the actual assassin pausanius at the tomb the tomb as we had said in part one was found in 1977

spk_0 the actual complex where Philip is buried has other remains of six people one of them a newborn and we said in part one that tomb 2 is most probably where Philip is

spk_0 because I read a lot that said that and then of course in December of 2023 a journal of archaeological science article made a pretty darn good case that he's in tomb 1

spk_0 and the reason why it matters is because you know if you're analyzing the remains in these tombs to decide how tall someone was or reconstruct their facial features or whatever if you're studying the wrong remains when you're getting the wrong information aren't you so the fights over that continue

spk_0 there are certainly the other remains of six people in this tomb complex and to get an idea of just how murderous things are going to get you could make a decent case without

spk_0 a huge amount of undue speculation that Alexander's mother Olympias may have been responsible for the deaths of five out of the six of them

spk_0 it's just going to be that kind of a time period as we said the killing starts right at Philips funeral with the people Alexander can get his hands on right away

spk_0 and he's going to reach out and go after the people that are too far to get instantly by sending out contract killers to get them

spk_0 one of those people is at a list at a list would have had to believe he was on the hit list anyway don't you think I mean when you insult the future king by essentially calling him a bastard at that cocktail party in front of everybody and then that guy becomes the king I would think you'd be thinking that your life was forfeit

spk_0 and you might be looking for any way out right put yourself in his shoes the good news if you're at a list when Alexander becomes king though is you're not there

spk_0 you're in modern day turkey as we said with the advanced force and the only person the only other general that could be a check on your power there happens to be your father-in-law your wife's dad

spk_0 so you know at least you're safe there right and you got 10,000 Macedonian soldiers with you good position to be in the Greeks and

spk_0 the most of these are reaching out to you and want your help well if your life is forfeit anyway if Alexander gets his hands on you wouldn't you listen to some offers

spk_0 and that's where the door is sick you list a story of the most of these reaching out to at the listen saying you know let's get rid of this kid this simple ten this boob and the door is

spk_0 as if you're sick you list says that after Alexander becomes king quote immediately after Philip's death at a list embarked on a course of revolution and agreed to cooperate with the Athenians against Alexander and quote

spk_0 a little earlier deodoros explains what Alexander's response to this was going to be in its a typically Alexandrian decisive and speedy sort of preemptive strike

spk_0 and in my Robin waterfield translation deodoros as quote

spk_0 at a list however was waiting in the wings to seize the throne and Alexander decided to do away with him at a list was the brother uncle actually a Phillips last wife Cleopatra and in fact Cleopatra had produced a child for Philip just days before the king's death

spk_0 at a list had been sent on a head to Asia has joined commander with Parminian of the expeditionary force he had won the affection of the soldiers with his generosity and cordiality and had become very popular in the army

spk_0 Alexander had good reasons then deodoros rights to be concerned about the possibility that at a list might link up with his opponents amongst the Greeks and claim the throne

spk_0 so he chose one of his friends a man called Hecatias or Hecatias if you prefer and sent him to Asia with sufficient soldiers and instructions to bring atalus back alive preferably but if this was impossible to murder him at the earliest opportunity

spk_0 so Hecatias sailed over to Asia joined Parminian and atalus and waited for a chance to carry out his mission

spk_0 and quote well at some point if you believe the deodoros story here atalus maybe realizes that he's been caught and tries his best to squirm out of this maybe that's my interpretation of how one tries to figure out his change of heart and his turning over of the incriminating letters from

spk_0 homostones right to Alexander it's not going to save his neck but deodoros rights quote he had in his keeping the letter he'd received from de moscow and he sent it off to Alexander along with expressions of good will in an attempt to have the charges against him

spk_0 and dropped but Hecatias or Hecatias but Hecatias murdered atalus as ordered by the king and then the rest of this and rebelliousness of the Macedonian expeditionary force in Asia came to an end though this was not just because of Atholus's murder but also because Parminian was squarely Alexander's man end quote

spk_0 so this is the part of the story here where if I'm making my Alexander film I want Martin Scorsese directing it the way by the way he was supposed to have done I heard before Oliver Stone's movie came out and squelched it I mean this is a mafia godfatherish type position to put other family members in I mean I have multiple secondary sources modern historians who are suggesting that there's no way this atalus assassination happens without Parminian

spk_0 approving of it the other general on the scene with the expeditionary force but Parminian is the father-in-law to atalus right atalus is married to his daughter if you decide you're going to let your son-in-law be whacked that's an interesting dynamic that might have been the part of the deal that was non-negotiable right we're taking atalus what do you want for the deal what do you want to be quiet what do you want to be happy I mean is one of the historians I was reading said you can always get another son-in-law

spk_0 and after atalus has taken out some of Parminian's family members do get some plum sort of promotions and positions so if one is trying to make their own movie and this is part of that gray area you don't know enough about you could conjure up all sorts of deals that might be made here to make a you know non-negotiable problem go away and everybody sort of walk away with pretty good consolation prizes

spk_0 and atalus isn't the only one who gets whacked just one amongst an indeterminable but certainly significant number of people that are going to be wiped out as part of the succession purges that Alexander initiates an indeterminate number of people will be killed though and they will often be killed on charges that they were somehow involved in Phillips assassination I mean it reminds you a little bit of the Soviet Union great purge where everybody was busy with the

spk_0 being executed for having something to do one way or another with the assassination of Sergei Kirov right it's a little like that maybe

spk_0 but atalus probably was a legitimate target several of the historians that I was reading were suggesting that he maybe even knew this was coming the other person that would have known she was a dead queen walking was his niece Cleopatra she must have known right away that as soon as Alexander takes over

spk_0 and his mother has any say in it that she's not going to make it in fact one of the people buried in that tomb complex with Philip that was found in 1977 is thought to be Cleopatra and her newborn child probably Phillips daughter some would say son it's unknown they found a few pieces of that newborn and did an analysis and it was killed so soon after that

spk_0 after birth that the old views that used to be out there that there had been a little bit of a time lag between Alexander taking control and Cleopatra and the newborn being killed seem to be wrong she seems to maybe have been killed almost right away that is traditionally blamed on Alexander's mother Olympias Elizabeth Carney and her wonderful book Olympias breaks down that whole point did she do it didn't she do it if she did do it what do they think about it and comes to the basic conclusion that

spk_0 it would have been considered all that eyebrow raising and the only weird part might have been that it was one woman in flicking violence on another woman which wasn't so normal before that time period but does become normal afterwards she sort of normalizes it

spk_0 and how it was done isn't known of course there are some lurid tales by later historians trying probably to milk the whole female angle but one later historian has Olympias dragging her rival wife and the new baby

spk_0 and the baby was born over glowing calls probably didn't happen that way Elizabeth Carney thinks what's likely is what had happened at another time period as I believe we said out of the six people buried in the Philip tomb compound Olympias might have been responsible for five of their deaths

spk_0 a later person's going to be a female who hangs herself Elizabeth Carney thinks maybe the baby was killed maybe in front of Cleopatra's eyes and then Cleopatra was allowed to with dignity hang herself who knows but Alexander in one source will reproach his mother for behaving savagely to Cleopatra

spk_0 now just to point this out because I didn't want to have it go unnoticed Alexander has been king all the five seconds and we already have one of those fork in the road moments where you kind of have to decide what you think happened and that's going to influence the way you see this Alexander figure

spk_0 I mean if he ordered the death of his dad's last wife and the newborn he's one kind of guy right if he looked the other way knowingly and let his mom do it it's another guy if he didn't want to kill them at all but his mom got to them first and killed them it's another guy

spk_0 so as he has control or responsibility over some of these outcomes right history may be difficult to determine motives and reasons and exactly what happened but you can say things like well all of a sudden they died and everybody talked about it okay that's an outcome you can

spk_0 you get your mind around your arms around it really happened and deciding Alexander's involvement is part of trying to come to grips with you know where he should fall on the biographical spectrum between a butcher on one end and a philosopher king on the other we do understand of course right that all of this needs to be assessed through a translation lens what's that line that the past is like another country they are going to be in the past

spk_0 they do things differently there and what is considered okay and right and maybe even commendable in one time period can be considered evil and horrific in another there are people who complain that this is cultural relativism and it lets people from the past off the hook but if they didn't know something was wrong seems pretty difficult sometimes to hold them accountable for that if you're not sure about that just try to imagine people a thousand years from now considering some of the things that we do routine learning and we do not know what's going to happen

spk_0 and don't even think about whether or not they're good or bad to do imagine being judged solely on the fact that we did that you might say we didn't know any better they might say that's no excuse so be careful

spk_0 there is a scenario I can imagine in my mind where the very people Alexander is responsible to right the average people in the kingdom of Macedonia would say oh my god we face the most existential moment in the world

spk_0 in the history of Macedonia as a state that matters forget whether some young woman or some newborn has been killed you screw this up in tens of thousands of us are going to die you know get tough and be the king that depends on how you want to view this situation

spk_0 but in my mind this is the moment where Alexander completely destroys this idea that he might be a child a simple ten a boob and he does so by essentially in my superhero story of Alexander

spk_0 pulling off the Clark Kent glasses and pulling open his shirt and revealing the s on his chest at this moment and it has to be this moment because if Superman doesn't appear everything is going to go to hell on a hand basket and my favorite description of the moment is in Plutarch

spk_0 and I have a book that I'm enjoying quite a bit it's not really a book it's a compilation of sources called Alexander the Great Historical Sources in translation

spk_0 and they have a newer version of a Plutarch translation that I don't have just passages in it but one of the passages is this key one that describes you know this crisis moment in the Superman film where Lois Lane is about to fall on off the building

spk_0 and he's got to just you know become Superman at this moment to save the day at least if you're looking at it from a Macedonian viewpoint if you're looking at it from like an Athenian or the even viewpoint this is when he becomes Darth Vader

spk_0 and Plutarch from the Seagalor translation says quote and so at the age of 20 Alexander took over the realm which was in every quarter fraught with bitter jealousies and deadly enmities and dangers for the barbarian tribes who were his neighbors would not accept their subjugation and yearned for the independent kingdoms of their ancestors

spk_0 in addition although Philip had defeated Greece in armed conflict he had not had sufficient time to completely subdue and tame her all he had done in fact was bring change and confusion and then with people unused to the new circumstances

spk_0 leave behind a mistake of restlessness and turmoil end quote now this is where Plutarch sets up the moment he has these who knows if it happened this way he has these hard bit in Macedonian generals the guys

spk_0 who are his dad's generals who helped conquer all these people in the first place caution that he needs to be careful there's a lot of moving parks lot going on you know maybe we need to be conciliatory over here give a little over there it's a strategy one could see Philip being okay with what do we say about his sort of tactics he was a kind of by any means necessary guy right he didn't care there was a chest pounding if he could get something with money for example

spk_0 Alexander not to be that way for Alexander the way you do things as part of what matters and putark has him essentially waving off the advice remember 20 year old kid been king for five seconds waving off the advice of the professionals saying is not going to do it that way

spk_0 and putar says quote the Macedonians were fearful of this predicament and felt Alexander should completely abandon the Greek situation and apply no further pressure there they thought he should use gentle means to bring back into life

spk_0 and find the barbarians who had defected and use conciliation to check unrest at its first appearance Alexander however started from a position diametrically opposed to this he set out to establish security and safeguards for his realm with action and a heroic spirit assuming that all would descend upon him if he were to waver in his resolve end quote

spk_0 now remember this is the first historical moment that we know of that Alexander was really in charge here that he has agency and this is where we get a chance to see him start to unveil some of the things that he's going to be known for right there superpowers as we said one of them is in Alexander's case speed

spk_0 disorienting speed speed that continually wrong puts the people that he's up against and speed at the tactical battlefield level but also with the giant strategic level if Alexander's your opponent on the other side of the war game table and you wonder what his tendencies are he's going to move on you

spk_0 he's going to be where you don't expect him before you even think it's capable of getting that far and you'll see it here because the first thing he does is get the army together and start marching south from Macedonia

spk_0 he's pacified things back at home right if this is a triage sort of deal the first step is quelling any sort of problems in your rear make sure everything settled back in the capital and then head on down south

spk_0 and as you arrive at each of these locations bring them back into the fold peacefully hopefully if not well that's what the armies for the first group of people he encounters are the the salions who have a long term relationship especially after this period with the Macedonians they're almost partners in empire not fair to call them cousins of the Macedonians but they sometimes seem like that if you will

spk_0 and that's going to be something Alexander can exploit with a sort of a good cop bad cop kind of attitude you know talks about we descend from the same people you know we've had a good relationship with each other mutually beneficial and while he says that he's managed to outflank the force of the salions that were blocking a position that was intended to create a military disadvantage for Alexander

spk_0 and when you can make all those good cases about a shared ancestry and all those sorts of things while you're outflanking the opponent he's got at least two reasons why it's a good idea to just say you know what you make a good case we're back in

spk_0 and then Alexander heads down south and will show up outside thebes for example before the Thebans are ready to have in there like a bunch of other cities the Thebans have expelled their Macedonian garrison

spk_0 they're sort of free thinking that earlier deal made with Alexander's dad and when he shows up with the army in battle array with their armor on outside thebes the sources say this is the equivalent of coming into the negotiations with Thebes and just once again there's a little mafia style to this whole thing he sort of an understated murderous intimidation sort of an air but you know done in the class he sort of way where you walk into the negotiations and you just place the handgun on the negotiate the

spk_0 negotiating table look up don't acknowledge its existence at all and just start talking turkey about the deal everybody knows the gun is there everybody knows what it symbolizes but nobody has to be as

spk_0 gocious to draw attention to it the Thebans get the message and they give in the Athenian send a delegation to say oh yeah never mind the money that

spk_0 Demastinese was providing to the Thebans to resist you you know we acknowledge you as the head of the organization again and in sort of a quick chain of events Alexander will move on to the to current the actual you know so the seat of this organization is dad created

spk_0 and everybody who was in the original organization the exception of sparta which wasn't in the original organization will pledge the Alexander basically takes his dad's place the original deal of going back and and paying the

spk_0 Persians back for what the Persians did to the Greeks 150 years previously is still on everybody's in you know business as usual it's during this time period when

spk_0 Alexander has two stories that fit into the timeline of his life that are traditionally part of the Alexander Kenan the first one is that while he's down here he goes up to the oracle at Delphi to talk to the priestess and get a a

spk_0 prophecy so he goes up there only to find out that it's winter and the oracle shuts down for winter so it's closed and he's not the kind of guy that's used to taking

spk_0 know for an answer so the sources have him you know going back into the inner sanctum finding the priestess and sort of

spk_0 you know roughing her up might be too strong a word but you know shaking her and letting her know you know you don't get off that easy

spk_0 and she's supposed to work for a marked wall he's shaking her or what have you my son you are invincible

spk_0 and that's all Alexander wanted to hear anyway and he left saying that basically that was the prophecy he was after

spk_0 and the other story that happens while he's down here while he's in Corinth specifically is this alleged encounter with the famous cynic

spk_0 philosopher Diogean is the guy who was always in search of a good man who believed in sort of the virtues of poverty and would

spk_0 sleep in a barrel naked not the kind of guy you would expect an up and come or in the geopolitical glitter

spk_0 rotti like Alexander to be you know fascinated with but again this is maybe part if we're going to do it

spk_0 this way looking into to trying to figure out who this guy might have been inside if this is the kind

spk_0 of person he admires and the story is that he comes upon Diogean he's with a few of his men and he's

spk_0 just watching him laying in the sun expecting to be noticed and not being noticed and finally getting a

spk_0 little antsy he breaks the ice by saying to this philosopher that he admires is there anything I can do for

spk_0 you to which Diogean is replies yes you can move a little you're blocking the light Alexander's man

spk_0 were not thrilled with this answer and got agitated to which Alexander responded maybe telling

spk_0 Lee that he was good with it if he were not Alexander he would be Diogean is interesting line for a guy

spk_0 to make when the switch places with the dude with no clothes living in a barrel it's an interesting

spk_0 connection to the man when we start to try to find little clues as to what he might have thought who

spk_0 might have been I'm reminded of a story that Mick Jagger who went to the London School of Economics

spk_0 had told an interviewer once you know he imagines occasionally what his life might have been like

spk_0 had he gone into economics instead of rock and roll maybe it's a common thing to think about

spk_0 it maybe Alexander was thinking listen it wasn't for this you know global geopolitical conqueror

spk_0 sort of thing I've kind of been born into you know maybe it would have been a cynical philosopher like

spk_0 Diogean he's naked in the sun not a care in the world you know little beatnik style peace man kind

spk_0 of alternative no responsibility is sort of way of looking at the world but that's not to be for

spk_0 like Xander he had a lot of things to do and the next thing on the list is to take his army

spk_0 back up to Macedonia and prepare to go north this is going to be triage task number three right

spk_0 triage task number one is settle things at home triage task number two is you know reestablish this

spk_0 league of the Greeks that your father put together for this invasion of Persia triage list

spk_0 element number three is cow the various tribes to the north and northwest of Macedonia so they

spk_0 don't get up to you while you take the army far away from home and while it may not seem like a big

spk_0 deal right Alexander taking this greatest army in the world probably up north to deal with a bunch

spk_0 of tribal peoples we should know that this is probably the first time Alexander's going to have

spk_0 ever commanded the army as the king in combat so for a guy who's going to make his historical bones

spk_0 being known as a person who belongs on the top ten list and a lot of people to have him at number one

spk_0 of greatest military commanders of all time noting the first time he does that as the king might be

spk_0 apropos so we're doing it of course he's supposed to have commanded the army when his dad was gone

spk_0 and he was the regent he was also for sure commanding a wing at kerania under his dad in earlier battles

spk_0 but this is the first time he's acting as the guy who's going to be the conqueror this is conqueror

spk_0 battle number one I guess you could say and this is where some histories kick in because it seems

spk_0 like a likely place to start the story if your main focus of the story is the military stuff

spk_0 and that brings me to a source that we're going to be able to use now that's really going to flesh out

spk_0 what we've had up until this time from this point on we get Aryan the Roman era writer another Greek

spk_0 like Plutarch writing in the Roman Empire Aryan is amongst a very small group of ancient historians

spk_0 that have come down to you know we in the modern world that deals with Alexander's life and times

spk_0 and because of that as we said in part one of this discussion the rarity of the info out there

spk_0 means that what you have left is sort of exalted in importance and Aryan is a perfect example of that

spk_0 his outsize influence probably has a lot to do with the fact that we sort of have always had

spk_0 and a lot of people before us too a sort of slightly positive default position on how we feel

spk_0 about Alexander Aryan is not the sort of source that the people from the Alexander was a butcher school

spk_0 of refund them like very much because well he's very upfront about who he uses as his sources

spk_0 and they're not the kind of people that are going to give you all the bad stuff they just aren't

spk_0 I do love the little things that we can sort of maybe glean and full disclosure I'm not qualified

spk_0 to glean some of this stuff but I sure read a bunch of people who are and I was reading some of the

spk_0 introductions to some of my Aryans and other books and they're diagramming a bunch of this sort of

spk_0 material for me but Aryan feels the need at the beginning of his history to justify writing it

spk_0 because the market is already saturated apparently with Alexander's stuff which tells you some

spk_0 things first of all tells you that there's still a huge demand for it 400 years later

spk_0 Alexander's a star this is where the era where he gets the you know the title the great the

spk_0 week didn't think of him as great necessarily but the Romans they like that stuff man conquering

spk_0 an empire building and it plays well and the emperor always loves that stuff a lot of emperors

spk_0 like Alexander and it's easy to see why but that's partly what makes Aryan so useful to us is he's

spk_0 focused on the military stuff which the sources we've been using up till now really aren't

spk_0 he gives us a different side of things we get a chance to see why in a military sense Alexander

spk_0 supposed to be so good give us some specifics Aryan does he is a good person to be doing this for

spk_0 us because he has a military background himself commanded troops in battle he's a man of sun

spk_0 distinction during his era and let's be honest the way technology in the ancient world in military

spk_0 affairs worked a commander like Aryan in the Roman imperial period would be subjected to most of the

spk_0 same physics of the ancient battlefield limitations and constraints that a guy like Alexander would have

spk_0 been in other words they would have understood each other's warfare pretty well and we don't have

spk_0 the sources that Aryan 400 years later was able to get his hands on to get his information from

spk_0 but he sort of acts as a sort of a spiritual channeler bringing back information from a time period

spk_0 that we've lost access to Aryan says the two people he used for most of his information was a guy

spk_0 named Aristobulus son of Aristobulus I think today we just call him Aristobulus Jr.

spk_0 I had another guy named Tallah me son of Lagos both of these men wrote histories of Alexander

spk_0 and both of them seem to have done so I was reading later in life so quite a bit of time after the

spk_0 events because they both lived to be pretty old I guess Tallah me for sure they're wildly different

spk_0 sources though in terms of quality Aristobulus I had to look a bunch of stuff up because he's a

spk_0 harder guy to figure out how close he was to Alexander I've read everything from the idea that he

spk_0 was a botanist which seems pretty likely to an interior designer to an architect to a military

spk_0 engineer all kinds of things certainly Alexander gave him orders and said go refurbish the tomb of

spk_0 Cyrus the great stuff like that but again how well he well-exandered tough to know

spk_0 in one of my translations of Aryan the historian writing about Aristobulus said he's known to be

spk_0 a part of a group of people around Alexander called the flatterers and another

spk_0 thing that I read about him compared him to sort of like a courtyair like a person around the

spk_0 king or the queen and you know you think about like someone around Princess Diana who was her

spk_0 tailor or something and and those people go one of two ways after the sovereign's dead either they

spk_0 chased the you know gossipy national inquire book market and spill all the beans or they become

spk_0 this figure that's revered by people for sort of keeping the faith and not turning on their former

spk_0 you know master and that sort of thing and it seems like Aristobulus is in that camp and historians

spk_0 who point out that he's a reliably positive source even when compared with other accounts of

spk_0 certain events and he always gives the most positive spin there was a specific account of him down

spk_0 playing Alexander's alcohol use at one point and all I could think of was someone who had the job

spk_0 of being like the you know sort of the media representative or the publicity agent for the king

spk_0 and when he's found dead drunken and alley by the ancient version of the local media and he has to

spk_0 basically say what do you mean drunk I mean it's jet lag he's tired that kind of thing

spk_0 so Aristobulus going to be a reliably positive source. Talamus is a much more complicated figure

spk_0 although you you're going to get a good portrayal of Alexander from him as well he's one of a bunch of

spk_0 people that sort of bask in the reflected glory of Alexander and who made up eventually a very large

spk_0 entourage of people around you know the king I feel like I'm talking about Elvis when I say that

spk_0 but it is interesting that you know powerful charismatic people whether geopolitical or entertainment

spk_0 or what have you tend to create these entourage is around them but Talamu would be an original

spk_0 member like an OG member of the Alexandrian entourage because he was around when Alexander was in

spk_0 school being tutored by Aristotle right it was a small classroom of people and Talamu was one of them

spk_0 Talamu they have started the rumor that he and Alexander were illegitimately related

spk_0 so you don't know how early they knew each other but middle school at least basically we would say

spk_0 interestingly enough another one of Aryan sources for later in the Alexanderan story

spk_0 another guy who was in that small classroom of Aristotle so as we had said in part one a rather

spk_0 distinguished class of people Talamu's career like a lot of the entourage sort of parallels Alexander

spk_0 and his Alexander gets bigger Talamu does he becomes his bodyguard at one point he'll become his

spk_0 general and then sort of like one of his great marshals after a while and the marshals the military

spk_0 sort of super generals of Alexander the great I would compare to any great group of marshals

spk_0 anywhere in history obviously the polling is the gold standard but I put Alexander up against that

spk_0 and all of the major marshals Talamu included ripped up the empire after Alexander's demise and Talamu

spk_0 maybe this is a sign of something he took probably the best part he took Egypt made himself king

spk_0 eventually made himself Pharaoh started a multi generational dynasty of rulers in that place that

spk_0 didn't end until one of his descendants Cleopatra yes the Hollywood Cleopatra who had the affair

spk_0 with Julius Caesar who was you know Mark Antony's girlfriend that that one that's how long it lasted

spk_0 and near the end of Talamu's long life he either wrote his own version of something that passes

spk_0 for a memoir or dictated it to somebody or somebody else got it out of him because it's a primary

spk_0 source that you run into in the history not just with Aryan but in my copy of Stravo the Geographer

spk_0 he references it too so clearly an important source and who wouldn't want it right I mean of all

spk_0 the people who whose memoirs you could get your hands on wouldn't Talamu be right there at the top

spk_0 I mean obviously Alexander Trump's that you'd like to have his you'd like to have his dad's or his

spk_0 moms or maybe some of the generals and other leaders he fought but otherwise you know Talamu's

spk_0 right there at the top of the list for any number of reasons one he's an eyewitness to a ton of

spk_0 this stuff so all of a sudden you have an eyewitness account even if it's through an intermediary

spk_0 like Aryan you know when people sometimes ask me how do we know anything about history especially

spk_0 how do we know anything about ancient history these are the little breadcrums of knowledge that

spk_0 go back to an original source of someone who was there once upon a time a long time ago right

spk_0 now it's not perfect historians think Talamu emphasized and exalted and exaggerated his own

spk_0 contributions and denigrated the contributions of other generals that he sort of competed with

spk_0 and certainly he's got his own political reasons during his lifetime for writing this stuff

spk_0 but Talamu also knew Alexander and knew him very very well so this all helps also it's a double

spk_0 ledge sword because he knows Alexander because he basks in his reflected glory all that stuff he's

spk_0 not likely to give you the the dirt the bad stuff but the good stuff he gives you makes a huge

spk_0 difference right away right in this thration campaign that Alexander starts you can see it

spk_0 because whereas Plutarch one of the sources we've been using devotes a couple of sentences to this

spk_0 whole campaign and Dia Doris Siculus another source we've been using gives you just a couple more

spk_0 sentences than Plutarch Aryan dives into this for pages I mean a quick comparison to someone

spk_0 like Plutarch shows you why Aryan is so important from the Dryden translation and I love Plutarch

spk_0 you know that but what he says about this expedition shall we call it this murderous expedition

spk_0 to the North Alexander is going to be involved in Plutarch says this quote he reduced the barbarians

spk_0 to tranquility and put an end to all fear of war from them by a rapid expedition into their territory

spk_0 as far as the river Danube where he gave Syramus king of the Tribalians an entire overthrow and quote

spk_0 you might not know how much that leaves unsaid unless you had Aryan to compare him to where we're

spk_0 going to get a riprore and account that involves battles and adrenaline and let's remember Aryan's

spk_0 trying to tell a good story here he is a great literary figure in his own right you could spend a

spk_0 lifetime as a class assist disassembling everything involved in the guy way above my pay grade but how

spk_0 he's trying to imitate his heroes and a fauna he's writing in a certain archaic style how his

spk_0 stoicism gets involved in the whole thing as I said way above my pay grade but you don't have to be

spk_0 an expert to appreciate his writing he didn't expect you to and he's already working with a story

spk_0 that's hard to screw up in terms of its entertainment value he's trying to compete with other offerings

spk_0 during his time period that are trying to tell a riprore yarn so when you get into Aryan you start to

spk_0 feel the story a little bit it doesn't sound like a chronological entry it sounds like a movie

spk_0 and one of the real useful elements for we non experts with Aryan is you can follow along now

spk_0 in Alexander's life like a dot to dot timeline that takes you from place to place you can sort of

spk_0 figure out where he is from now on at any given time now he'll go to far flung places sometimes

spk_0 and all of a sudden his cell service won't be working anymore you can't track him for a little bit

spk_0 but then he'll come back into it and so from about this point in the story you kind of have a

spk_0 pretty good idea where Alexander is in the spring of 335 BC BCE Alexander's in the strategically

spk_0 vital northern city of amphipolis preparing to launch a strike northward he's got several different

spk_0 targets it looks like including the people that put a spear through his father's leg and left him

spk_0 limping for the rest of his life the tribalians but this is Thracian country and we have to sort of

spk_0 reorient our minds to what the ancient peoples like Alexander's Macedonians would have known

spk_0 about the territory around them I mean we're all familiar with the old historical idea of

spk_0 there being maps sort of in the age of discovery where you didn't know what laid beyond a certain

spk_0 point you put dragons and monsters in the edge to represent the unknown well think about how less

spk_0 known things were in the 330s BCE right Herodotus who wrote his famous histories they're not

spk_0 exactly sure when but it's about 130 let's say 130 years before Alexander's time period Herodotus

spk_0 who went everywhere and who talked to everyone about what lay beyond the horizon when he couldn't

spk_0 get there he doesn't know what lays beyond the Danube and the Danube is sort of Alexander's goal

spk_0 here a lot of historians think he was trying to conquer to the Danube which is about a hundred or

spk_0 so miles it sounds like from beyond his current they're not really borders but let's call it area

spk_0 of influence or domination even but in Herodotus's time he didn't know what lays beyond the Danube

spk_0 and he he wonders if there's any people there at all he thinks it may be depopulated he only knows

spk_0 of one tribe there and he mentions them and then he talks about their custom and they sound like

spk_0 a step tribe a central Asian you know horse archer people which that area actually had anyway so

spk_0 chalk another one up to Herodotus probably being right about something

spk_0 he did talk to the Thracians and ask them what lay beyond the Danube and he says they told him

spk_0 you can't live there because it's absolutely infested with dangerous bees which Herodotus did not

spk_0 believe he said but when you think about the fact that it was infested with horse archer peoples

spk_0 and tons of swarms of these horse archers maybe the Thracian was speaking in sort of metaphorical

spk_0 terms right swarms of dangerous human beings on horseback with endless arrows right

spk_0 Herodotus doesn't believe the bee story because he thinks they'd freeze and he thinks frost and

spk_0 cold is probably the reason the past the Danube there are no more human habitations as he says

spk_0 Herodotus does know a bit about the Thracians though and in my

spk_0 Andrea L. Purvis translation of Herodotus's histories this is what he says quote

spk_0 The Thracians are the largest nation in all the world at least after the Indians

spk_0 if they could all be united under one ruler and think the same way they would in my opinion

spk_0 be the most invincible and strongest of all nations but that is impossible it will never happen

spk_0 since their weakness is that they're incapable of uniting and agreeing and quote

spk_0 the way i've heard it sometimes phrase is that the Thracians would have conquered the world

spk_0 but they enjoyed fighting each other too much the books that you can find on the Thracians

spk_0 have compiled all sorts of adjectives and things from the ancient sources that describe them

spk_0 and of course they get the typical bigotry and prejudice that all so-called barbarians get from

spk_0 you know sophisticated sniffy writers in the places like Athens and whatnot but let's be

spk_0 honest if you actually are head hunting they're going to make some noise about how that's not a

spk_0 very civilized behavior although they do it themselves when they want to the Thracians are supposed

spk_0 to have red hair and green eyes but that's from a very limited number of sources so take that with

spk_0 the grain assault they're supposed to be high spirited drunken not too smart head hunters tattooed

spk_0 most dangerous i think it was the kiddities that said most dangerous he said like all barbarians

spk_0 when things are going their way on the battlefield they are famous warriors that were used and in

spk_0 high demand as mercenaries for centuries i think it was xenophon that said they were best used for

spk_0 executions and massacres and things like that and actually during the pelipotene panesian war did

spk_0 massacre a whole town no one knows how many Thracians there were but some people have estimated up to

spk_0 a million as a population and it's interesting to try to figure out what we even mean when we say

spk_0 Thracian because um i looked the other day and saw that currently there's thought to be some 200

spk_0 or so Thracian tribes i have a book from 25 years ago that thought there were only 40 back then so

spk_0 it shows you how many tribes are being classified as Thracian but what are these people you know

spk_0 150 years ago they would have called it racial or an ethnic group maybe ethno cultural would be a

spk_0 more modern term because some of these people maybe aren't related by DNA at all but are using the

spk_0 same sort of pottery or tools or fighting styles or weaving styles the Thracians are one of the great

spk_0 big cultural groups north of Greece and by the way if you look at a modern map of Greece and you

spk_0 look at it at every territory that touches it in the northern sort of circle all those areas during

spk_0 this time period are occupied by hundreds and hundreds of tribes which makes it extremely difficult

spk_0 to forge relationships with and peaceful coexistence because it's like dealing with all these different

spk_0 governments i mean modern Alexander historian the great Voldemort Hekel i was talking about the

spk_0 Illyrians which are in modern day Albania one of these people that Alexander's going to strike out

spk_0 against on this Balkan campaign he says because they comprised strong tribal units i'm quoting here

spk_0 with individual rulers they were unpredictable by the very fact of their disunity end quote so as

spk_0 some historians would point out maybe you have to punch them in the mouth here to make sure that

spk_0 they respect you or as many modern day historians think Alexander's trying to expand his borders to

spk_0 clear logical endpoints and guess what the Danube is such a clear logical endpoint that it's the

spk_0 border between Bulgaria and Romania now but that entire area is theration in this time period to the west

spk_0 and north of the therations in this time period you have the great ethno cultural group that is the

spk_0 Celts and they're moving down during this period next couple hundred years they're going to go even

spk_0 farther south and then to the west of them as we said in modern day Albania are all these tribes

spk_0 that would be classified as a lyrian and then there are some tribes that are you know in the same

spk_0 way that gravitational pull can affect people that are actually a blend of the cultural influences

spk_0 and one of them is the one that Alexander's going to strike first he's going after the trabali

spk_0 the people who speared his father as we said but their cultural influence they don't really fit

spk_0 easily anywhere usually they'll be classified as theration but i was reading history that says you

spk_0 know you can actually see them as a blend of all the influences from the area Celtic theration

spk_0 lyrian and schithian but Alexander moving northward here is moving into kind of if not undiscovered

spk_0 country than little known country traders i always try to remember go everywhere you know they get

spk_0 their their nook and their crannies and they take stuff into the undiscovered room they're the great

spk_0 Lewis and Clark types in the ancient world but it sounds like other than his dad's campaigns into

spk_0 these areas he's not going to know a lot of things and he's going to probably have theration guides

spk_0 from the friendly therations the way that you know americans were using native american guides to help

spk_0 guide them into places like deep Apache country and part of the reason you need guides like this is

spk_0 because when you're fighting the indigenous people in their territory who are close to the land

spk_0 their style of fighting is often exquisitely adapted to the conditions now modern technology has

spk_0 somewhat diminished the advantage that this gives but the Apache were still benefiting from it

spk_0 you know in relatively recent history the therations have an entire troop type in the ancient world

spk_0 that is named after the way they fight and the way they fight is the way they fight because of the

spk_0 geography and the terrain Alexander's known for using failaxes of really closely densely packed

spk_0 drilled troops right who fight in formation he's going up into country where there are streams

spk_0 and forests and mountains and broken country all kinds of terrain that makes it as one historian was

spk_0 pointing out this is some of the toughest fighting country in europe if you're a partisan the 20th

spk_0 century you know this is wonderful territory for you to fight in go look at the Balkan mountains on

spk_0 Google earth now it's bad enough looking now imagine what it looked like two thousand years ago

spk_0 and you're going up to fight the people who fight in such an interesting effective style that every

spk_0 major power for a couple hundred years it's going to have troops in their army called peltestes

spk_0 a peltest is traditionally an intermediary infantry style between the two extremes right one

spk_0 extreme being like Alexander's troops who fight shoulder to shoulder drilled in formation and are

spk_0 kind of useless by themselves you take a guy with a 17 18 19 foot long pike and you take him away

spk_0 from his brethren armed the same way and then you try to have him fight some tribesmen armed with

spk_0 you know a cutting weapon on a stick that's not going to go well so they tend to stay in formation

spk_0 as a rule and the other extreme are these skirmishers these people who act like sharp shooters who

spk_0 duck and move and dodge and you know use a little dip in the land for coverage who have no intention

spk_0 of coming to blows with anyone who are armed with a sling or a bow and arrow or a javelin

spk_0 the peltest is capable of doing both they can skirmish or they can charge in a warrior kind of

spk_0 sense now they're not not as good as either one of the specialists not as good at skirmishing generally

spk_0 as a skirmisher not as good at you know melee in general as these close order troops in discipline

spk_0 and drill but the fact that they can do both makes them very difficult sometimes to deal with the

spk_0 Greeks associated this style of fighting specifically with the Thracians but you can run into it

spk_0 all over the world not just in this period either in the Napoleonic era go look at all the different

spk_0 light infantry that the countries use and if countries have access to sort of tribal

spk_0 the regulars in the colonial period in Africa for example they would call them native

spk_0 the regulars if you had access to those people you use them if you didn't you try to create your

spk_0 own generally from people who lived as close to the land as possible like the Prussians really didn't

spk_0 have access in that period any sort of tribal the regulars so they hired like their forester

spk_0 and their hunters to be the jaguars to perform the same sort of light infantry role but if you're

spk_0 going into the country where the native peoples live and you're going to fight the native peoples

spk_0 there's really no direct substitution than the native sort of light infantry in this period the

spk_0 native peltus themselves and when the Greeks first encountered them they had big trouble with them

spk_0 because they didn't have a good troop type to counter them with eventually they learned what every

spk_0 society in this situation learns eventually which is if you can't beat him hire him put him on

spk_0 the payroll hire a lot of theration peltists Alexander had troops in his army that are famous one

spk_0 of his most famous units are his agrainian javelin men and they are themselves people who fight this

spk_0 way especially necessary because if you're going to fight people who fight as peltus in that kind

spk_0 of country you're going to need peltus of your own and Alexander has them we are told by AB

spk_0 Bosworth that he probably goes north here into this campaign with less than 15,000 men which is a

spk_0 small number that's not a large force at all it is if you're in the middle ages if this is Norman

spk_0 and Saxon times and Hastings this is a sizable force but 15,000 in this time period with these

spk_0 people is a picked force and Alexander's taking some of his best Macedonian units with him he's

spk_0 also taking a ton of light troops because he knows where he's fighting he has his father's army as

spk_0 we said earlier and his father's army is a combined arms army one that has whatever troop type

spk_0 you need at any given moment Aryan says Alexander proceeds from amphipolis with this force northward

spk_0 he has organized this is very typical Alexander also he has organized a fleet which is going to

spk_0 move up along the coast to the Danube River and then we'll move up the Danube and the fleet's

spk_0 job is to meet him at the destination with supplies so as we said earlier this is not some

spk_0 willy nilly endeavor this is something that would take the Persian Empire during this period I

spk_0 imagine two years of planning to pull off and Alexander first moves through Thracian territory

spk_0 pacified by his father and then we were told by Aryan after a nine or a ten day march he comes

spk_0 to a pass in what was called the hemost mountains he misses a minor Greek deity that the Thracians

spk_0 considered sort of their god who guarded them and these Balkan mountains being called the hemost

spk_0 mountains back then you might as well have called them the Thracian mountains and when Alexander

spk_0 gets there we're told by Aryan in a narrow sort of pass at some of the very heights in this range so

spk_0 some of the heights are like five thousand feet he runs into some of the locals waiting for him

spk_0 sort of on the heights and they've brought lots and lots of wagons with them

spk_0 from my land mark Aryan the campaigns of Alexander translated by Pamela Manch Aryan says quote

spk_0 in the spring he Alexander marched on thraces against the Trabali and the Illyrians he had learned

spk_0 that they were contemplating revolt and he'd also considered it unwise when embarking on a

spk_0 campaign far from home to leave neighboring tribes behind without first humbling their spirits

spk_0 setting out for man Fippeless he invaded the region of Thracian inhabited by the so-called free

spk_0 Thracians keeping Philippi and Mount Orbaless on his left 10 days after crossing the river Nestus he

spk_0 has said to have reached Mount Hemas and there at the narrow path leading up the mountain he was met

spk_0 by many armed tribesmen is the way one of my other translations has it um towns people is another one

spk_0 and free Thracians standing ready to bar his way they had occupied the height of Hemas at the very

spk_0 point where the army had to march past the tribesmen had brought a number of wagons together

spk_0 to form a barricade from which they could defend themselves if they were pressed hard

spk_0 they also planned to send the wagons down against the ascending Macedonian failanks

spk_0 at the steepest part of the mountain thinking that the more tightly packed the failanks

spk_0 the more forcibly the wagons as they hurl down would disperse it and quote

spk_0 So Peter Green the great ancient historian writing around 1970 says that this is the first time

spk_0 you get to see Alexander's genius demonstrated like what's he going to do about this

spk_0 and green in his famous Alexander of Macedon biography writes quote

spk_0 one of the qualities which most clearly distinguishes Alexander from the common run of competent

spk_0 field commanders is his almost uncanny ability to divine enemy tactics in advance some of this may

spk_0 have been due to his first class intelligence service but at times it looks more like sheer

spk_0 brilliant psychological intuition anyone else he writes would have assumed very reasonably on the

spk_0 face of it that the Thracians intended to use their wagons as a stockade and fight behind them

spk_0 Alexander however knew that their favorite battle maneuver was a wild broadsword charge

spk_0 and instantly deduced what they planned to do as soon as he and his men were into the narrow

spk_0 section of the gorge these wagons would be sent rolling down the slope shattering the Macedonian

spk_0 and before its demoralized ranks could close again the Thracians would charge through the broken

spk_0 spear line slashing and stabbing at close quarters where the unwieldy Sirissa the long pike was

spk_0 worse than useless and quote well what was that line the kiddides said right there at their most

spk_0 bloodthirsty when things are going their way that's when I'd be most scared of them too when you

spk_0 come through your broken ranks slitting the throats of people and falling upon you know your

spk_0 terrified Macedonians with their barbarian you know intensity and frenzy I mean barbarians are scary

spk_0 tribal peoples to settled society peoples always seem kind of scary probably wearing war paint

spk_0 the tattoos the red hair the green eyes maybe drunken maybe wild all the good barbarian

spk_0 stereotypes in play here but what Alexander tells us troops to do here you know as Peter green says

spk_0 divining what they're going to do forces us to think very long and hard about you know what I've

spk_0 mentioned earlier the physics of ancient warfare what people do and what they're capable of doing

spk_0 and this is where having Aryan as a military commander himself operating in an era where

spk_0 the physics of ancient warfare aren't that different from Alexander's time is key because he's

spk_0 going to tell us Alexander does something that I wouldn't believe possible but if it were fiction

spk_0 Aryan would have known it was fiction because he would know people can't do this

spk_0 this is impractical this is impossible this is unlikely and he would say this in a way that made

spk_0 us understand it Aryan says that Alexander's answer to this tactical dilemma he runs into

spk_0 is to tell his men that when the wagons come tumbling down the hill if you can get out of the

spk_0 way just break formation and hide you know get get undercover avoid the wagons and they're more like

spk_0 light carts I think so we should think of them that way but there may have been hundreds of them

spk_0 the next thing Alexander says is if you're caught in the path of these things he wants them to lie down

spk_0 or it sounds more like he wants them to almost create if you ever had a bike when you were a kid

spk_0 you created a jump ramp a sort of a ramp so that these carts would then hit the shields of troops

spk_0 lying down in front the troops behind them would be at a little bit more of an angle the troops behind

spk_0 them if you've ever seen them the tortoise formation the testudo that the Roman legionaries would do

spk_0 in the imperial times a version of that if you will but to lie down and create these ramps so that

spk_0 the carts would hit the first row of shields and just so to get airborne and not really hurt anybody

spk_0 this sounds crazy now green says that Alexander did some specific training before going up here

spk_0 into threase winter training for his troops some other things so it's possible if he knew that this

spk_0 tell you know the intelligence service if he knew that something like this might happen maybe

spk_0 this is a practice maneuver but it forces us to think a little bit more about what ancient

spk_0 armies were capable of because according to Aryan the thracians did indeed launch the wagons down hill

spk_0 Alexander's troops did indeed lie down with their shields over them and no one was hurt

spk_0 and remember Aryan's trying to write in Alexander history specifically to cut through all the

spk_0 romans and the myth making and the crap from his time period so he doesn't want to deliberately lie

spk_0 this is a very interesting thing though if you're a fan of ancient warfare trying to figure out

spk_0 how it worked that something like this was possible from my Aryan from the arbre desselecourt translation

spk_0 this by the way is where Alexander has to try to consider how to handle this threat that the

spk_0 thracians pose quote Alexander had now to consider how to cross the ridge with least loss for cross

spk_0 that he must as there was no way around his orders were that those sections of the heavy infantry

spk_0 which had room enough were to break formation when the carts came tearing down the slope

spk_0 and so let them through any sections on the other hand which were caught in the narrow pass

spk_0 were to form in the closest possible order such men as were able lying prone on the ground with

spk_0 shields locked together above their bodies so as to give the heavy wagons as they careened down the

spk_0 hill a chance to bounce over the top of them without doing any harm Alexander accordingly gave

spk_0 his orders and the result was what he expected those that had room left a space between their ranks

spk_0 and as for the rest the carts passed harmlessly over their locked shields there were no casualties

spk_0 end quote now think of how disheartening this moment must be I keep trying to think about it like

spk_0 cinematically what's it look like when all those carts rumble down the steep mountain and they

spk_0 start you know falling amongst themselves and they try into a giant jumble and they smash down

spk_0 you know into this narrow area and people are ducking and dodging trying to imagine what would have

spk_0 happened had Alexander not had them you know do the lay down shield thing but when the

spk_0 threshing see that this doesn't work it's like a double problem for them because their strategy

spk_0 of attacking with them didn't work and now they've lost these things they were going to hide behind

spk_0 if the failanks and the rest of Alexander's troops came up to get them so now they're sort of

spk_0 naked up there I mean they do have the height advantage but that's it and now just like maybe

spk_0 their disheartened Aryans is straight up Alexander's troops look at this and their morale jumps and we

spk_0 all understand right that morale is probably the preeminent aspect of warfare I mean Napoleon gave

spk_0 ratios for how important it was and it matters even today of course but when you're on these

spk_0 relatively speaking tiny battlefields which involved you know if you were looking at it from a

spk_0 giant balloon I mean these look like just crowds of people where you can see things I mean there

spk_0 there must have been I would think a kind of almost sporting event type ability

spk_0 to sense the shift in momentum sometimes when it comes like you're watching a football game and

spk_0 all of a sudden the momentum visibly shifts the crowd knows it the players on both teams know it

spk_0 I get the feeling maybe it's like this and Aryan says that when the wagon thing doesn't work

spk_0 the momentum shifts and Alexander's now going to come and get these iterations and from my

spk_0 Pamela Mensch translation in the landmark Aryan which of course is called the anabasis originally

spk_0 Aryan says quote

spk_0 I think that's the way it is.

spk_0 Finding themselves unheard by the wagons they had most dreaded the Macedonians now took courage

spk_0 raised a shout and charged the iterations Alexander ordered the archers to move from their post

spk_0 on the right wing to the front of the phalanx where the ground was better and to shoot at the

spk_0 iterations wherever they attacked he himself collected the Igeema the shield bearers and the

spk_0 agrenians to form his left wing with himself in command the archers shooting at the

spk_0 iterations who salient forth from the ranks succeeded in driving them back the phalanx now joined

spk_0 battle and had no difficulty dislodging the barbarians who were lightly or poorly armed the

spk_0 iterations no longer attempted to engage Alexander who was advancing from the left but threw away

spk_0 their weapons and fled as best they could down the mountain nearly 1500 of them perished few of

spk_0 those who fled were taken alive on account of the speed and the knowledge of the country

spk_0 though all the women who had accompanied them were captured with their young children and all the

spk_0 property they were carrying end quote this is a fantastic translation by the way of Aryan by

spk_0 Pamela Mench here in the landmark area it captures all of the flare you get a real sense

spk_0 of being able to see what Alexander's trying to do here he's clearly setting up some sort of left

spk_0 hook where you're going to smash these people after sort of pinning them from the front which is

spk_0 sort of the classic macadonian hammer and anvil sort of tactic anyway but it sounds like before

spk_0 the hook can even land the iterations have had enough and they they run down the mountainside

spk_0 leaving their women and children behind them I do like the little part Aryan throws in about

spk_0 how you can't really catch him in their own climate once again they're like a patchies can't find him

spk_0 once they get into the hills they're gone disappear invisible but their women and children aren't

spk_0 they get sent back to macadonia's booty probably to become slaves and starting the tally that the

spk_0 Alexander as the butcher sort of school will start to compile of people whose lives are negatively

spk_0 influenced and pain inflicted maybe needlessly because of the goals of Alexander and at this point

spk_0 in the story the goals of Alexander are pretty defensible from an ancient geopolitical standpoint

spk_0 I mean he's just sort of rounding out his territory and making sure that you know these people

spk_0 don't swoop down on his people I mean you can always talk about the same sorts of defense needs

spk_0 that we still talk about today there's a sort of an evergreen quality to those sorts of threats

spk_0 and up until this point one would see Alexander's actions as being thoroughly supported by all and

spk_0 if the she would have been on the other foot that operations would do it to them but it should be

spk_0 noted these people who just suffered 1500 dead to the macadonians were not the people that Alexander

spk_0 wanted to inflict pain and suffering on they were just people standing in the way and once he

spk_0 brushes these people aside he heads for the tribalee now he's in tribalee country and it's hard

spk_0 for me personally to not create some sort of mental analogy between this and sort of the Native

spk_0 American experience in North America but it's so flawed to use that one because the power

spk_0 relationships are so different I mean to me we've been talking about things like the Apache

spk_0 this people who are guerrilla people hard to find hide in their own native habitat but there

spk_0 were Native American tribes that were big and strong and like you know powerful nations in their

spk_0 own right like the Comanche for example and Alexander going against the tribalee here is not

spk_0 like going against Apache guerrillas or whatnot it's like going up against the Comanche

spk_0 people who as I said defeated his father a generation ago the difference here though is that

spk_0 Alexander's not fighting them with some sort of garrison force or some sort of outpost in the way

spk_0 that the American West situation was this would be akin to taking like grants army from the civil war

spk_0 and lining up on one side of the battlefield and fighting the Comanche on the other that sort of

spk_0 thing never happened but of course the tribalee and all the tribal peoples of Europe have all

spk_0 sorts of advantages that the Comanche didn't have like not being wiped out by disease you know ahead

spk_0 of time and you know not having to face guns and horrible technological one-sided situations it's

spk_0 going to be bad enough leave me the the tribalee fighting the Macedonians is one sided enough from

spk_0 a military technology standpoint but it's not you know machine guns against tribesmen

spk_0 at the same time you get this sort of sense that it seems to be a little like all those encounters

spk_0 with these settled societies and their armies come into the tribal territory and push the tribes

spk_0 to the edge in this case the edge is the Danube and that's where the king of the tribalee senses

spk_0 you know women and children of his tribe for hopefully safety and sanctuary it sounds like there's

spk_0 a very big island in the Danube because it's not only the tribalee that will take refuge there

spk_0 but Aryan says the surrounding peoples are the equivalent of war refugees fleeing the fighting and

spk_0 heading to this island the king himself and his entourage were told join them meanwhile the warriors

spk_0 have moved straight toward Alexander and they've somehow gotten behind him Aryan says this will not

spk_0 be the only time in Alexander's career where the enemy somehow gets behind him which normally

spk_0 would be a big deal but in no case in Alexander's life is it ever a big deal he turns around

spk_0 and he goes and gets them and he encounters them while they're making a camp there in a territory

spk_0 near a river with woods the different translations translated differently sometimes a Glenn is the name

spk_0 they use sometimes a wood but it sounds like it's broken country regardless not the kind of

spk_0 territory Alexander can just sort of charge them in both sides find each other they form up but the

spk_0 tribalee warriors are in this wood and Alexander can't deal with that but as we said before Alexander

spk_0 has his father's army it's a combined arms army he has whatever troop type he may need to get the

spk_0 job done whatever he encounters in this case Aryan says he sends in the skirmishers and the marksman

spk_0 and the slingers and the archers to go shoot at the tribalee in whatever this terrain is that's

spk_0 keeping Alexander off him it sounds sort of wooded but what happens is the tribalee are in a

spk_0 position where they have to just sit there and suck up the arrows and well that'll make you crazy

spk_0 and after it's like being under you know attack by gunfire or artillery fire or whatever and not

spk_0 being able to respond after a while you just you know decide I don't care what the risks are I'm

spk_0 getting shot up here or you lose your mind or you get angry you just see them there you know close

spk_0 buying you think you can you know charge out and get one of them but they do manage to get the

spk_0 tribalee to come out of the woods to go get these skirmishers that are just the term they used to

spk_0 use was galling them and when they do that's when Alexander falls on them the cavalry from both

spk_0 sides Aryan says he's also got cavalry in the center followed up by an extra dense version of the

spk_0 falling on the command she of course it wouldn't have been granted get his bergies at vicks berg it

spk_0 would have been me but in any case and Aryan says that as long as they were involved in the skirmishing

spk_0 the tribalee held their on but as soon as Alexander's army hit them full tilt in good terrain right

spk_0 good terrain meaning they pulled them out of the woods into place with the failings can to can

spk_0 form up in dense formation you can't handle that very few armies in the world could a much less

spk_0 a tribal force used to fighting in different circumstances they they beat now exanders dad before

spk_0 as we said but this would not have been the circumstance they would have chosen to fight in

spk_0 there's a line from this part of Aryan's commentary that also has prompted all sorts of speculation

spk_0 about those of us trying to figure out what the heck ancient battle looked like because one of the

spk_0 variables what are the elements in the physics of the ancient battlefield that has all sorts of

spk_0 unanswered questions about it are horses what they would and wouldn't do how they functioned

spk_0 there's a whole school of thought among some military historians at the Macedonians were the

spk_0 first people in this period to use true shock cavalry again that's up in the air but there's a line

spk_0 in especially clear in Pamela mentions translation of Aryan where she talks about how even the horses

spk_0 themselves are it makes it sound like she's using she didn't use the exact word it makes it sound

spk_0 pushing so in the middle ages there's a whole school of thought to the horses were used sometimes to

spk_0 push to shove the formation jostle it if you will into disorder and she'll mention something to

spk_0 this effect when she says quote so long as the two sides assailed each other from a distance

spk_0 the Trabali held their own but when the tightly arrayed phalanx attacked them with force

spk_0 and Alexander's cavalry thrusting the enemy this way and that no longer with javelins but with the

spk_0 horses themselves assailed them from every side the Trabali were routed and fled through the Glen to

spk_0 the river three thousand died while fleeing only a few were taken alive as the woods beside the

spk_0 river were dense and the gathering darkness robbed the Macedonian pursuit of its precision eleven

spk_0 Macedonian horsemen died according to tolami and about 40 foot soldiers and quote interesting that

spk_0 Aryan says this information comes from tolami a direct breadcrumb connection all the way back to

spk_0 a guy who was probably an eyewitness there a long time ago once upon a time I love that since a

spk_0 shiver down my spine to think of Aryan a Roman era historian sort of informationally and storytelling

spk_0 wise spiritually transmitting that stuff like a channeler to us now if the casualties sound

spk_0 suspiciously one sided to you I don't blame you we should recall and I'm going to make this

spk_0 disclaimer for the rest of the program you can't believe ancient warfare numbers at all you can't

spk_0 believe the army strength you can't believe the casualties you can't believe the casually ratio is

spk_0 none of it some would say you you never can in warfare others would make the argument I think I

spk_0 fall into this camp that there comes a time period and it's relatively recently where you can kind

spk_0 to start to trust those numbers let's call it part of a record keeping revolution but certainly I

spk_0 would say somewhere in the 20th century they become more believable but certainly in the ancient

spk_0 world you can't believe them at all but if you think that this is wrong just because they are so

spk_0 one sided I would have said that by the way a long time ago myself but I read a book I wish I could

spk_0 remember the title or the historian but it was one of those books where they give you information

spk_0 that you already know but they put it in a sort of a context you know tip it slightly if you will

spk_0 that allows the light bulb to all of a sudden go on and you kind of smack yourself in the head and

spk_0 go of course this historian said that those sorts of one sided casually ratios aren't just true

spk_0 they're common throughout military history this isn't an ancient history thing it's an unequal

spk_0 side spacing off against each other thing when you have more equal forces you tend to have more

spk_0 equally distributed casualties but when one side outclasses the other the ratios are often horribly

spk_0 one sided case in point by the way go look up at the casually ratios for something like the Gulf War

spk_0 right the one this is a you know recent conflict coalition deaths caused by Iraqi military action

spk_0 is something like 150 people Iraqi deaths are still not known to this day the site I looked at

spk_0 ranged it from and this is military casualties a KIA actually 20,000 to 50,000 take the low one 20,000

spk_0 if you have 20,000 on one side if you if you saw an ancient report from a historian like Aryan

spk_0 who said that one side the three shouldn't lost 20,000 men Alexander lost 147 you would say

spk_0 you know you'd laugh all the dash and yet there we go so that historian turned a light on

spk_0 for us that just made me go well when one side outclasses the other and Alexander certainly

spk_0 outclassed the Trabali those numbers may be closer than we think 3000 deaths on the Trabali side is

spk_0 not unbelievable the ancient source Aryan did not give us even an attempted army strength so all

spk_0 we know is that Alexander took a pick sort of smaller than normal force don't know how many Trabali

spk_0 were there after Alexander defeats them we're told he's about a three day march from the Danube

spk_0 he heads right for it the Danube is the second longest river in Europe but as far as these people

spk_0 are concerned it's the longest river it's the longest river they know about the Volga which is

spk_0 the longest river in Europe is deeper into what would the Thracian say it's deep into B country

spk_0 swarms of bees out there can't live out there they don't even know the Volga exists

spk_0 and what they do know about the Danube is that it's this big dividing line between

spk_0 civilized people on one side and very very very scary uncivilized people in air quotes on the other

spk_0 running the length by the way and the tribes are just ever more you know one more nasty than the next

spk_0 up and down the river and as far as the Greeks and the Macedonian world is concerned they don't

spk_0 know too far up the river I mean they don't know that there are Germans you know farther along the

spk_0 Danube the Romans are going to know that they'll still make the Danube their border between you

spk_0 know where the civilized people are and where the very scary scary people are on the other side

spk_0 Alexander's dad did not cross the Danube right there that kind of makes Alexander want to do it

spk_0 he heads up towards this island that we told you the Trabali king the kings entourage the women

spk_0 the children other war refugees from the area have sort of taken refuge on this island in the

spk_0 Danube and the Danube has a bunch of these islands by the way and some are huge I looked them up

spk_0 one of them's like more than 30 miles long so you get this idea of what amounts to nature's kind of

spk_0 creation of a sort of a moat around this island that protects it and if you've got to people on

spk_0 the island think about what they're fighting for you have your wives you have your children you

spk_0 have all of your movable wealth you have your neighbors I mean you're going to fight tooth and

spk_0 nail the current on the river is we are told fast this is not the same Danube that exists today right

spk_0 this is you know think of all the canals and all the things that have been built by man up and down

spk_0 the stretch of this river over history this is pre all that this is one of the great rivers of

spk_0 the world in a period where it is wild and untamed and Alexander has to figure out a way to get

spk_0 across it if he wants to deal with these people on an island in the middle of it well as I was

spk_0 going to say fate would have it but it's really just wonderful planning there is a fleet there

spk_0 ready to be used by Alexander he set this up either he ordered it or he paid for it to leave the

spk_0 city of Byzantium Aryan says and meet him here might have had supplies might have had troops but

spk_0 maybe the most important thing that it has is it has seaborne capacity right he can use the ships

spk_0 to go after that island now to be honest it makes it sound like there's not that many of them

spk_0 but he tries anyway and he's defeated Aryan says by the swiftness of the current the sides of

spk_0 this island seem to be very steep and rocky and difficult to land and you can only imagine

spk_0 thousands of people on this island fighting for everything trying to repel Alexander

spk_0 doggedly it's a combination that makes the prize well maybe not worth what it's going to take to get

spk_0 the prize right not worth the cost meanwhile a completely new and different threat is manifesting

spk_0 on the far side of the Danube tribal peoples from the you know barbarian and air quotes areas are

spk_0 massing on the far side of the Danube and basically offering a challenge to Alexander the people

spk_0 who are doing this are seemingly one of the innumerable tribes from ancient history where you go

spk_0 whatever became of them I've seen the name pronounced several different ways I'm not even consistent

spk_0 the way I do it myself Gitae Gitae Gitae it's the same root word for other peoples like the

spk_0 Massa Gitae or the Massa Gitae I've chosen to go with Gitae myself but you know individual results may

spk_0 vary on the pronunciation front and while many of us around the world may think this is just one

spk_0 of the many innumerable tribes we've never heard of the seemingly fill-angent history there are

spk_0 Romanian peoples today who considered these groups of people to be their ancestors so there is a

spk_0 connection in the region to these Gitae people the jury is out and knowing the circumstances

spk_0 probably this is a divisive topic but whether or not the Gitae should be classified as

spk_0 Thracian or not as an open question Aryan says that they believe in immortality which would make

spk_0 them different from most racial tribes but that's one of the interesting points about them

spk_0 they are numerous Aryan puts the numbers that we of course can't believe because they're ancient

spk_0 history numbers but he says there's like 4,000 horsemen and 8 to 10,000 infantry a significant force

spk_0 especially up against Alexander's smaller than normal picked force there's a number of reasons

spk_0 why they could be there they could be supporting their next door neighbors the Trabali right helping

spk_0 them out a little bit they could be showing up as a way to say you don't get to Coney farther

spk_0 or we have our military forces here that's as far as you go don't cross the river I was reading one

spk_0 historian had a great line who was explaining we said this earlier shows too I think we said it

spk_0 about the Mongols but there's something that can happen in ancient history that doesn't happen

spk_0 now which is that all of a sudden an armed army an armed force of people can show up in your lands

spk_0 that you don't even know exists and all of a sudden you can have a war with somebody you didn't

spk_0 even know about that's when the Mongols show up you're a war with this people you didn't know they

spk_0 existed and this history was saying that in a time period where that was not uncommon simply

spk_0 getting everybody together armed and showing up at the edge of your land was a prudent precaution

spk_0 they don't know who this Alexander is and they're going to send a message which is we're ready

spk_0 so stay there if this moved by the GTI was meant to be a challenge that would deter Alexander

spk_0 it had the opposite effect historian AB Bosworth says it was a mistake

spk_0 but it's at this moment in time that Aryan introduces a concept to the Alexandria and story

spk_0 that's going to run through it as one historian I was reading it's it's a light motif that runs

spk_0 through the entire Alexander legend but is it real we're going to put on our suspicion caps to

spk_0 begin with and ask ourselves you know whether we believe any of it but if we do believe some of it

spk_0 what do we do with it and how interesting is it that something that might be part of Alexander's

spk_0 psychological makeup might have made it through you know the spiritual historical storytelling

spk_0 channeler that is Aryan to us now it could be possibly knows something about this man who lived 23

spk_0 hundred twenty four hundred years ago at this moment that Alexander is dealing with the

spk_0 trabali on this island and these tribal peoples are now massing on the far bank we are told that

spk_0 Alexander gets hit with a sort of longing the Greek word that's used by Aryan is pohthos and it

spk_0 like so many of these philosophical Greek ideas you can use twelve fifteen different english words

spk_0 to try to describe what it means and still not hit the bullseye with it all of my translations of

spk_0 Aryan have a footnote or an asterisk right by the first time that this is mentioned to try to

spk_0 explain it in the martin ham and translation he describes it and translates the word pohthos to

spk_0 a n Alexander gets a n in the arbre to sell and court translation he says that the idea of

spk_0 landing on the far bank of the danube quote suddenly seemed attractive end quote well exander

spk_0 and pampholim bench says that a longing seized him to pass beyond the danube longing

spk_0 so i looked at up tried to understand it as best i could normally it's like a sexual thing like

spk_0 like the way some teenage boy for example would feel about some unattainable girl and that's sort of

spk_0 aching and and yearning but in the way it's used for Alexander Peter green says it's not use that

spk_0 way for any other person in history in nineteen seventy he tried to explain this pohthos thing that

spk_0 appears for the first time in the writings when these gitae tribes been appear on the far bank of

spk_0 the danube and peter green in Alexander of mackadonia writes quote meanwhile a vast horde of

spk_0 gitae nomads some four thousand horsemen in between two and three times that number on foot

spk_0 had appeared on the far side of the danube yet it was now despite their presence that Alexander

spk_0 found himself seized by a quote and quote irresistible urge to cross the river if blocked by the

spk_0 difficulty means taking that island in the middle of the danube from the tribalee try the impossible

spk_0 the Greek word for this urge is pohthos it recurs throughout Alexander's life as a quote longing

spk_0 for things not yet within reach for the unknown far distant unattained green continues and it is so

spk_0 used of no other person in the ancient world pohthos in this sense is an individual characteristic

spk_0 peculiar to Alexander end quote in my harbory disillincord translation the note for pohthos when

spk_0 it appears in this part of the story has another sort of description and it says quote this is the

spk_0 first occurrence in arian of the word pohthos longing yearning which he and other Alexander

spk_0 historians used to describe the desire to penetrate into the unknown and investigate the mysterious

spk_0 victor erin berg in Alexander and the greeks argues that the word was used by Alexander himself

spk_0 the present passage however he regards as an exception end quote wouldn't that be interesting

spk_0 if this is a word Alexander used himself about his own longings and yearnings to continually go

spk_0 farther and where those longings and yearnings and some other young male his age might have referred

spk_0 to some unattainable young lady he couldn't marry or whatnot in this case it's about that you know

spk_0 river and what's beyond it that his dad never managed to cross and it's weird because there's

spk_0 three sort of psychological aspects to Alexander's life that are often talked about and I sat down

spk_0 and I drew a circle for each one and in a vendagram like way with three of them they sort of

spk_0 overlap one of them is ambition which I'm fully qualified and understanding because we can all

spk_0 understand that the other is pohthos which I'm not qualified to understand and the third is something

spk_0 called erotay which I'm also not qualified to understand but when you do a little work just to

spk_0 learn the basics you realize okay these three things are overlapping with each other and sort of

spk_0 energizing each other the ambition let's take that out for a second just look look at pohthos

spk_0 pohthos this desire to always go farther it to explore strange new worlds to seek out new life

spk_0 and new civilizations to boldly go where no man has gone before and yes a few of you will know there's

spk_0 one degree of separation between captain Kirk and Alexander the great cuz William Shatner played

spk_0 Alexander in a TV movie it was horrifying what might be better as to have Alexander the great

spk_0 comeback and play James Kirk but if you're making your Alexander movie and the star that you cast

spk_0 in the Alexander role turns to you and gives you that famous comedic actor question trope and says

spk_0 to the director you hey what's my motivation here you know what's a what's Alexander doing this for

spk_0 well he's got this pohthos to continue to explore strange new worlds and he's got this

spk_0 need to be excellent this erotay this erotay thing is is seen as sort of a resurgence lately among

spk_0 some people but in the writings that I was reading it basically if we're going to simplify and encapsulate

spk_0 it it's trying to figure out what your purpose is what you were born to do if this was a Christian

spk_0 version of this you would say what did the good lord you know make you and set out your purpose and

spk_0 give you the qualities to succeed that you know find out what you're good at and then do it

spk_0 excellently right become the best at doing it if you're a gardener be the best gardener ever right

spk_0 if you're born to dance be the best dancer ever right figure out what you're supposed to do and

spk_0 then just be the best at it but if you boil down what it is Alexander's born to do and what he's

spk_0 good at it can become a little troubling not if you think about it in the sort of the zoom out since

spk_0 greatest conqueror in history that sounds like something you get an award for but when you look

spk_0 at what that means in the Alexandrian sense right got the factor it down to the lowest common

spk_0 denominator what is Alexander really good at there is a story and I maybe I invented it that's

spk_0 a good way to be able to tell this story without having to find out where I first read it I think

spk_0 it was in military history magazine I tried to search for it I could not find it so take it with

spk_0 the grain of salt and it may be a press relations thing to begin with but there was a story involving

spk_0 British field martial Bernard Montgomery and he was meeting with some boy I guess it may be a press

spk_0 relations thing a young seven eight year old boy whatever it was and long story short the boy

spk_0 had said to the field martial at one point you know two in American looks like a very civilized

spk_0 typical you know British officer unlike the American type much more you know sort of reserved a

spk_0 gentile quality maybe to him which might maybe belize the true character nature of the guy but the

spk_0 kids says the field martial you know what his dad does tells him a lot about his father and then

spk_0 says the field martial and what is it you do and the field martial replied something to the effect of

spk_0 I kill people and I think the boy said something like you kill people do you kill a lot of people oh

spk_0 yes lots and lots of people and the reason it sticks with you is because it's so off brand at

spk_0 least the way in American would see the brand now if ivory handled pistol wearing American general

spk_0 George patent had said that it's fully on brand it's contrived almost if patent says it right

spk_0 whereas in Montgomery it's a little shocking but I remember it stuck in my head because the truth

spk_0 of the matter is as we say if we boil this down to the lowest common denominator that's what this guy

spk_0 does and everything else that he's given credit for flows from there right what do you do I

spk_0 concordations well how does that work boom boom boom factor it down well I have the best army

spk_0 utilize the best way and I know exactly how to make people run away on the battlefield and then how

spk_0 to kill as many of them as I can while they're running and that has great geopolitical impact

spk_0 importance and effects I kill people and I believe I was born to do it and my philosophical beliefs

spk_0 handed down to me if not by the Iliad which has been called the Bible of the ancient Greeks

spk_0 then by Aristotle himself who talked about things like eroté it would have been bred into him

spk_0 his Homeric values and at Philip the seconds court would have bred it into him I mean this guy is

spk_0 going to believe in being excellent at what you're born to do and what this guy is born to do

spk_0 clearly because many of you will have him ranked as the best to ever do it is to kill people

spk_0 and then reap the many geopolitical and historical benefits that comes from that

spk_0 and if this is kind of Alexander's superpower if you will like other superpowers it's sort of

spk_0 value neutral depends on how you use it right whether it's good or evil which I think leads to

spk_0 so many of the questions about Alexander I mean this is all part of maybe a search to answer the

spk_0 all elusive question of why I mean why is Alexander doing this what is my motivation as we said

spk_0 and maybe inventing both us and eroté and all this sort of stuff is an attempt to explain

spk_0 something that's very hard to understand otherwise and really influences the guy because

spk_0 I mean the ability to be a super killer in a battlefield general sense is something that's

spk_0 the kind of superpower you might want to have on your side at one time or another doesn't have

spk_0 to be some global conqueror that enslaves people and and rolls over you know villages and towns and

spk_0 destroys the livelihoods of lots of people it can be the thing that prevents that you can be on

spk_0 the other side some small little nation out there about to be trampled by some giant power and

spk_0 all of a sudden you have somebody with Alexander the greats general ship qualities as their super power

spk_0 right and they have a philosophy of what would the marine commercial or the army commercials from

spk_0 when I was growing up you be all you can be sort of an eroté idea right like to have that guy on

spk_0 your side if you're about to be swallowed up by some giant nation state right so it just depends

spk_0 and everyone understands that which is why so much of a focus is on the question of why

spk_0 right if Alexander's all of a sudden about to unleash his superpower on somebody why is he doing it

spk_0 what's the reason because if he's about to do what he's about to do to these geeky tribesman on

spk_0 the opposite side of the den you because he has a yen or a longing for the unattainable or he

spk_0 has an adolescent like crush on the idea of getting across a river his dad never crossed that's

spk_0 a pretty flimsy reason to kill a lot of people and take their stuff especially in their territory

spk_0 a b-boss worth we'll call it terroristic on the other hand there are some military reasons for

spk_0 doing what he's about to do and those who would defend the action even today would point out

spk_0 that what happens afterwards proves this fact conclusively but what we're told Alexander does is

spk_0 something that the geeky tribesman on the opposite side of the den you probably thought impossible

spk_0 he transports thousands of men and horses across the river in a single night and seemingly without

spk_0 the geeky even noticing that it's happening according to Aryan Alexander uses the boats that he

spk_0 brought from Byzantium that's probably how the horses get across but he also has his people scour

spk_0 the river river bank and we're told that there are dugout type canoes all around that the locals

spk_0 use and those are all scoured and then Alexander tells his troops to take the tents that they

spk_0 sleep under fill them with straw and use them to float across the river which seems terrifying and

spk_0 deadly to me yet I have seen in many of you have two probably the reliefs showing a Syrian troops

spk_0 doing this exact same thing hundreds of years before this time period and again Aryan knows

spk_0 what he's talking about in military affairs he would have said something maybe instead what Aryan

spk_0 says happens is that Alexander in the course of a single evening utilizing all these methods manages

spk_0 to get 1500 cavalry and 4,000 infantry across this mightiest of rivers and to do so apparently

spk_0 without alerting any of the thousands of geeky tribesmen that are on the lookout for him that he's

spk_0 doing it we are told by Aryan that Alexander lands in a spit of land that's sort of concealed by a

spk_0 grain field ready to be harvested so imagine you know the wheat or whatever it is taller than a man

spk_0 able to conceal the army Aryan says Alexander forms his troops up basically information including

spk_0 cavalry but the main group being the phalanx shoulder to shoulder and Alexander orders that his

spk_0 troops hold their 17 18 19 foot long pikes whatever it is diagonally you know at an angle so that as

spk_0 they march they are siding and knocking down the harvest hunger in military affairs is an age old

spk_0 weapon isn't it and extra effective against tribal peoples operating so close to the edge of starvation

spk_0 right one bad thing happens to the harvest and you could be screwed Alexander marching through your

spk_0 harvest is as bad as it gets and Aryan makes it sound like the first moment that the geeky notice

spk_0 that Alexander his crossed is when his army emerges from the grain field like some horrific version

spk_0 of field of dreams right but instead of baseball players it's the nastiest army of the age emerge

spk_0 from this grain field and basically come at you I mean that's shock and awe ancient history style

spk_0 right and those of us who like ancient medieval history there are so many psychological aspects

spk_0 that are interesting and and these psychological aspects still exist in modern warfare don't get me

spk_0 wrong but they're so enhanced when everyone is so close together right it's why you have so many of

spk_0 the same aspects in like the Iliad or that level of warfare that one might have seen in caveman warfare

spk_0 or animal kingdom type encounters where you have these animals that have evolved to make themselves

spk_0 look bigger a puff themselves out or make some scary noise or whatever as a way to sort of

spk_0 psychologically scare their opponents right intimidate their opponents it's why even in the

spk_0 Napoleonic era you have this headgear that makes you look taller why would you want that it's more

spk_0 intimidating you have that kind of headgear in this era also war paint you have animal skins and

spk_0 animal heads the people wear battle cries are ever present and it makes sense when you think about

spk_0 the fact that you know ancient warfare in this period is like taking a football stadium or

spk_0 soccer arena and taking that crowd dividing it in half and then putting it on opposite sides of

spk_0 a football field or two or three so they're not hurting each other currently but they can see each

spk_0 other and they can scream and chant and yell things like football fans might the ancient authors talk

spk_0 about battle cries that are specifically associated with certain cities or certain people's right

spk_0 they have their own and they pass it down through generations it's like a football team

spk_0 having you know chance that they've done since their grandfather's day or whatever they're known for

spk_0 and some of the ancient authors actually try to phonetically in their text you know sound it out

spk_0 for you so you could sort of imagine what it was like to hear the thrations or the the German

spk_0 tribe has been of a certain tribe do their famous you know war chant whatever it might be

spk_0 but a lot of this is intended to intimidate and when you understand you know as the Greek

spk_0 used to say a foe boss the god of fear is ever present on the battlefield a lot of people here

spk_0 are just barely holding it together psychologically and you know that this is true because things

spk_0 happen in the ancient era that you don't often see in the more modern era to the same degree I

spk_0 mean there are units that just run before anybody touches them xenophon in the original anabasis which

spk_0 area in such a huge fan of xenophon was a general who fought with Greek troops in a Persian civil war

spk_0 and he talks about you know when the enemy first approaches and you see the giant dust clouds and

spk_0 the innumerable number of people and a giant unit is coming towards them and all of a sudden you

spk_0 know sees their spears from a distance and turns around and runs never even comes into contact it's

spk_0 sort of the dirty little secret of ancient medieval warfare right a lot of units just didn't wait

spk_0 around and that's because the psychological state of people in this sorts of situation is fragile

spk_0 part of that is the Yin and Yang of the situation the Yin which sort of compels you to move forward

spk_0 right doing your duty fighting for your homeland not wanting to be punished by your superior all

spk_0 those things that make you capable of going you know toe to toe against the enemy but then there's

spk_0 the Yang side of things certain realities reality number one is if the unit decides to run and you

spk_0 don't trust these bastards on either side of you not to run but if they run the people that get it

spk_0 in the back first are the bravest who stay the longest right so you're sort of have a psychological

spk_0 encouragement to neither be the first one to run nor the last one to run but what can happen as

spk_0 you can be psychologically knocked off balance and I would think that this would be a tool in the

spk_0 toolbox of a legendary commander and you see it with other commanders too Hannibal did this to the

spk_0 Romans constantly in the Punic Wars right where you awe them and then you follow up by shocking them

spk_0 there's a term in warfare in war games for example a unit that faces a psychological moment like

spk_0 this can be said to be shaken that's the term the unit is shaken and when Alexander bursts

spk_0 through the cornfields Aryan makes it sound like the GTI are shaken and then before they get a

spk_0 chance to pull it together Alexander attacks so maybe this entire way you approach the GTI is

spk_0 intended to gain a psychological edge on them it seemed to have the design effect as Aryan says

spk_0 they have the same sort of deflation seeing that the river didn't protect them here that the

spk_0 Thracians earlier had when they saw that all the wagons they threw down the mountainside did nothing

spk_0 to Alexander's forces right there the morale shift or do we say the momentum shift like a football

spk_0 game happens and Aryan says the GTI don't last long from my decelerin core translation Aryan says

spk_0 quote the very first cavalry charge was too much for the GTI the crossing of the Danube greatest

spk_0 of rivers so easily accomplished by Alexander in a single night without even a bridge was an

spk_0 act of daring which had shaken them profoundly and added to this there was the violence of the attack

spk_0 itself and the fearful sight of the phalanx advancing upon them in a solid mass they turned and fled

spk_0 to their town which was about four miles from the river but as soon as they saw that Alexander

spk_0 with his mounted troops ahead was pressing on along the riverbank to avoid ambusher encirclement

spk_0 they abandoned the town which had few defenses and taking with them as many women and children as

spk_0 their horses could carry continue their flight into uninhabited country as far from the river as

spk_0 they could go Alexander took the town together with anything of value which the GTI had left behind

spk_0 end quote Alexander historian AB Bosworth who has always been pretty good at putting himself in

spk_0 the position of Alexander's victims called it a gratuitous act of terrorism on a helpless people

spk_0 but after Alexander does that all of a sudden the wind goes out of everyone's sails nearby

spk_0 the king of the trabali on that island sends people to negotiate with Alexander and a bunch of

spk_0 surrounding representatives from surrounding tribes due to so you know one could make an argument

spk_0 here that this demonstration of strength and how good his army was and how devastating the

spk_0 results would be you know if you master them saved a bunch of future encounters maybe

spk_0 let's be honest though the main lesson that these northern people learn from this encounter with

spk_0 Alexander is that he's not a boob he's not a simpleton he's not a child all those things that

spk_0 homostones had said about him not true you can't blame these tribes for testing the 20-year-old though

spk_0 after all the trabali would fight against his father the greatest military man of the age if

spk_0 they'll test that guy they'll certainly test his 20-year-old son who with the vagaries of monarchy

spk_0 might be an idiot might be a simpleton might be a boob turns out he's not and the northern peoples

spk_0 in this part of this territory will remain nice and friendly throughout Alexander's reign and

spk_0 actually and this was probably not optional it was probably part of the deal they'll contribute a

spk_0 lot of troops to the army they'll take over to fight with in Asia from Alexander's standpoint

spk_0 I'm sure that the trabali envoys coming to settle up with him was the most important part of this

spk_0 time period because after all that's why he launched the campaign in that area to begin with but

spk_0 from our standpoint thousands of years later the most interesting envoys that show up to Alexander

spk_0 during this time period are Celtic now as a Celtaholic as many of you are trying to figure out

spk_0 who a Celt is or isn't during this period well it'll occupy the rest of my life trying to nail

spk_0 this down but it's like all these giant confederations of tribes we spoke about this earlier

spk_0 Elyrian's Thracians Celtic whatever they may be ethno cultural linguistic I mean all these

spk_0 confederations are made up of lots and lots of other tribes and then they're broken down into

spk_0 clans and the connection they have with each other is hard to determine sometimes but people

spk_0 identified as Celtic about a half century before this time period defeated a very young it must

spk_0 be said Roman army in the field and again dirty little secret as we mentioned earlier a lot of

spk_0 that Roman army supposedly fled before ever actually clashing spears with the enemy in front of

spk_0 them right saw them got close to them said nope and left so those people identified as Celtic

spk_0 sacked Rome and that sacking famously left sort of a psychological scar that Rome never got over

spk_0 Eryan writing when he's writing knows of Celts very well but in Alexander's time period encounters

spk_0 were rare in the 330s especially amongst people like him he'd probably never seen anyone like this

spk_0 before an Eryan probably working from tolemie as a regional source describes sort of their

spk_0 reaction to it and it's the same sort of reaction you might have if your James T Kirk you know

spk_0 seeking out new worlds and new life and new civilizations I mean these Celts look to Alexander

spk_0 the same way Romulans would look to Kirk and that's kind of the way Alexander sort of reacts Eryan

spk_0 gives you probably coming from tolemie a sort of a report you might send back to headquarters about

spk_0 this new group of people you just discovered in the first thing that the McAdonians notice about

spk_0 these guys right away is their huge physically men of enormous stature Pamela Mench translates

spk_0 Eryan saying but there's other versions of them but it's clear that the McAdonians who probably

spk_0 were seen as kind of tall compared to your average southern Greek they notice these guys size

spk_0 and they're also sort of haughty is maybe the way to put it out you actually have a comment

spk_0 from Alexander after his encounter with them and the funny part about it is Alexander in

spk_0 history in Voldemort Heckle in his book in the path of conquest resistance to Alexander the

spk_0 great points out that this whole encounter as transmitted by Eryan shows how arrogant the young

spk_0 20 year old king is but the criticism on the part of the McAdonians about these Celtic people is

spk_0 that they themselves are arrogant in my martin hamond translation of Eryan he describes the moment

spk_0 ambassadors start arriving to Alexander after he defeats the githy and says quote ambassadors now

spk_0 arrive to see Alexander from the independent tribes bordering the Danube including on voice

spk_0 from Syramus the king of the Trabalians and on voice came also from the Celts who lived by the

spk_0 Ionian Gulf these Celts were big in body and had a big opinion of themselves all the on voice

spk_0 profess to have come in the desire for friendship with Alexander and with all he exchanged reciprocal

spk_0 assurances he did ask the Celts what they feared most in the world hoping that his own great name

spk_0 had reached as far as the Celts and yet further and that they would say that they feared him more

spk_0 than anything else their answer came as a disappointment living as they did in inaccessible

spk_0 country far away from Alexander and seeing that his ambition lay elsewhere they replied that their

spk_0 greatest fear was of the sky falling on them their embassy to Alexander was prompted by admiration

spk_0 but with no element of fear or self interest even so he declared friendship with the Celts

spk_0 too simply remarking that the Celts were a pretentious lot and quote to Selenkoor translates

spk_0 Alexander's words into that they thought too much of themselves Pamela Mench has him saying in a

spk_0 more colloquial term big talkers these Celts and one wonders whether he actually said that

spk_0 it's wonderful to think about tolemming maybe being in the room as Alexander comments after

spk_0 the Celts just walk out big talkers these Celts but as Voldemort Heckl says the entire

spk_0 affair just shows how arrogant Alexander is this is his first campaign ever and he expects these

spk_0 people a long way from him these Romulans that he's never seen before to know all about him and

spk_0 be scared of him already no not going to happen in fact while they'll be good during Alexander's reign

spk_0 it'll only be about a half century after this time where they're going to go on a rampage

spk_0 in southern Greece they'll actually sack the very tomb that Alexander's father is buried in

spk_0 some historians think that this entire Celtic diplomatic mission may be more of a sort of

spk_0 dual purpose affair I mean in the same way ambassadors can play sort of a dual role they're sort

spk_0 of part diplomat but they're also part intelligence agents right they gather data about

spk_0 you know foreign leaders and these situation in the country and the foreign capitals and the

spk_0 mood and the climate and the army and how they fight and all this kind of stuff and it would

spk_0 make sense wouldn't it that if you were thinking you might someday have to fight this guy

spk_0 that you'd get a little intelligence on what you're potentially dealing with here

spk_0 guy comes up from the south 20 years old defeats you know three different groups of locals in a

spk_0 short period of time easily might want to know about a guy like that in any case Alexander

spk_0 deals with all these envoys these diplomats these ambassadors these submissions are cataloged these

spk_0 peace deals these friendship arrangements whatever it might be Alexander is managed to sort of

spk_0 pacify Macedonian if not borders as we said then territory under its sort of control all the way

spk_0 to the Danube Alexander Aryan says now takes his troops to the south and west of where they are

spk_0 here near the modern remaining of Bulgaria and border to an area that is controlled by the king

spk_0 of the agranians who is an ally of the Macedonians he's gonna rest his troops have gone like 500

spk_0 miles remember marching on foot basically through terrible country on bad roads fought several

spk_0 battles I mean after a while you know things need maintenance right the footwear needs to be

spk_0 mandated whatever it is the army could use a rest and then according to Aryan a crisis breaks out

spk_0 on the borders between Macedonia and Illyria so modern day eastern Albania kind of now the news is

spk_0 that three major groupings of Illyrians the age-old arch enemy of the Macedonians and let's not

spk_0 avoid the elephant in the living room married into the royal family I mean Alexander's got a half

spk_0 sister who's half Illyrian while they're on the war path again going to invade Macedonia or something

spk_0 like that in rebellion Aryan says and you never know if that's to cover something or not but three

spk_0 major groupings of a people so dangerous that they killed Alexander's uncle the king of Macedonia

spk_0 at that time on the battlefield with four thousand Macedonian soldiers left dead for the Ravens so

spk_0 obviously the Illyrian threat is real put me in the camp of people that thinks that this wasn't some

spk_0 unplanned encounter with the Illyrians though because we had was it Plutarch who said it couldn't leave

spk_0 the iterations in his rear and take his army and go to Asia far away from home because they're too

spk_0 dangerous well magnify any threat the threshings were to the Macedonians like 10 when you're talking

spk_0 about the Illyrians the Illyrians really are the boogie men of the nightmares of Macedonian little

spk_0 children you could understand why some of these Illyrian rulers could be mad though the guy who's

spk_0 sort of leading the whole thing well you know Alexander's dad defeated him in battle

spk_0 may have killed him so you know there's some grudges

spk_0 Aryan says that Alexander's host the king of the agrarians the guy who provides Alexander's

spk_0 you know maybe his favorite unit certainly one of his favorite units is jack of all trades

spk_0 ranger commando girka special forces unit the agrarian javelin men he says don't worry

spk_0 I'm gonna take one of these people off your plate I'll go ravage the territory of this one major

spk_0 tribal grouping and they'll have to deal with me so you'll just have the other two to deal with now

spk_0 Ian Worthington and by the spear says that Alexander ordered him to do this which may be the case

spk_0 no matter what happens though Alexander's three headed hydro problem just became a two headed one

spk_0 and with customary speed he races towards the fortress that he finds out the major ring leader here

spk_0 a guy named cleetus that he's taken refuge in and Alexander heads over to this with his smaller

spk_0 than normal army right it's still this picked force and he heads into country that I struggle to

spk_0 describe it's difficult to know how to differentiate one area with really poor military terrain

spk_0 from another area where if anything it's worse terrain we do we have a bad terrain scale where

spk_0 if you score a one it's bad terrain if you score it too it's worse terrain if you score a seven

spk_0 it's trace where we just were you know in the heamus mountains in modern day bogaria a

spk_0 nine is where Alexander's heading here into a liria modern day Albania to use a phrase I use

spk_0 all too often liria is like thres only more so and in a way what we get a chance to see here

spk_0 is the true measure of Alexander the great is a great military commander because to be honest when

spk_0 you have the greatest military of the age you want the giant cinematic battles that everybody

spk_0 who's an oz about and no one more than yours truly right we're all entranced by the great field

spk_0 battles with tens of thousands of guys on each side these incredible history determining afternoons

spk_0 right but those things in comparison to the day to day you know grunt work of fighting are rare in

spk_0 a even a conquerors life the great field battles the day to day stuff that you have to endure first

spk_0 of all the day to day stuff probably wipes out a lot of people snuffs out there a conquering career

spk_0 early on they might have been great but they died in some unnamed you know Germanic forest perhaps

spk_0 when their legion was ambushed by a bunch of barbarians in the deep dark middle of nowhere happens

spk_0 all the time and that could have happened to Alexander too and in a way going in and fighting

spk_0 in a place where the terrain negates all of the great advantages that you bring to the table right if

spk_0 your army is so much better than some of the armies you fight later when you get them out in the open

spk_0 it's like the us in the Vietnam war it's exactly what the US always wanted the Vietnam war they want

spk_0 a world war to style battle come on out here and fight the terrain made it very difficult to do

spk_0 that and a lot of the locals thought that there were other ways to go about winning a war

spk_0 than confronting the best army of the age had on you have a similar sort of dynamic at work here

spk_0 because Alexander's walking into territory where it is absolutely covered by forest in mountains

spk_0 it's completely impossible to operate the way Alexander's going to be operating in the wide open

spk_0 plains in places like Asia later or even in a place like Thrace where once you got past the

spk_0 chemist mountains it seems like there were some open country to deploy in there are going to be

spk_0 paths here the area and says where you can't get four guys to walk side by side you have a sheer

spk_0 cliff on one side and a tumble into a river down a you know steep slope on the other um that's

spk_0 going to negate some of the best things you bring to the table you may have a combined arms army

spk_0 but the army is designed to do sort of a hammer and anvil deal right line up those deep blocks

spk_0 of shoulder to shoulder lined up guys with 18 whatever foot pikes and they pin and hold the enemy

spk_0 in front of them right engage them and then while that enemy is busy send the cavalry around the

spk_0 flanks try to hit them in the flanks and rear and roll them up and I mean it's a great tactic but

spk_0 it doesn't work in the forest it doesn't work in the mountains where Alexander's heading so

spk_0 watching him conduct operations with all of his best most dominating tools taken out of his toolbox

spk_0 is a chance to see you know the guy in an equalizer situation and certain things are going to become

spk_0 clear the first thing is that even though these Macedonian kings are expected to behave like figures

spk_0 you know the Iliad and sort of lead the charge and all that I mean his dad lost an eye right it

spk_0 he was a crippled man from fighting Alexander if anything even graded on the Macedonian curve

spk_0 is going to be more aggressive and famously seek out battle even more he's probably already killed

spk_0 people back when he was commanding one wing of the army at places like the battle of kerania and

spk_0 whatnot but Aryan is going to inject the adrenaline into his account now that we told you earlier

spk_0 is part of what makes him special right he writes it's a movie account at some points and Alexander

spk_0 is the star and he is often in situations where normally you wouldn't want your king getting anywhere

spk_0 near those kinds of encounters that could so easily go wrong Alexander's going to almost come off

spk_0 it's a movie trope right you have to go to like a 1950s John Wayne movie where you know they head

spk_0 up into the country where the natives live and you can hear drums in the hills all around in this

spk_0 sense of menace and being swallowed up by the country and then when night falls it's terrifying

spk_0 I mean it has that kind of a feel to it and remember there's a difference in the way militaries

spk_0 operated in this period compared to say Napoleon's time onward although there are examples of

spk_0 differences I mean one of the things the Mongols did was operate this way but nowadays if you're

spk_0 going to invade a country you're going to invade along many roads on a wide front so that as you move

spk_0 it's like ink spilling and just sort of absorbing the areas as the army moves forward in this era

spk_0 it's an army sort of marching like a little entity encased all by itself they'll have flankers and

spk_0 people out you know on cavalry scouting and maybe scouring for food and all those kinds of things

spk_0 get a few informers but by and large it's this little group of human beings relatively speaking

spk_0 just marching into a territory and if you could zoom out with the drone shot you would just see

spk_0 it swallowed up by forest everywhere it literally like American patrols you know in Vietnam once

spk_0 they got too far away from bases it's just the jungle swallows you well this isn't a jungle

spk_0 in Southeast Asia it's the European ancient equivalent and Alexander's marching into it and he

spk_0 knows that there's at least two armies out there trying to converge to destroy him and his mission

spk_0 is to get to one of them and destroy it before it can link up with the other that's a very

spk_0 Napoleonic problem by the way Alexander moves with his trademark speed gets to the fortified

spk_0 city where one of these ring leaders a king named clitus is holed up before his ally shows up with

spk_0 the other army which of course was the goal but he sort of inadvertently traps himself while doing so

spk_0 and as we've already said once and as we'll say again there's something about Alexander's career

spk_0 where he will do this and you think to yourself well for such a great commander to continually

spk_0 put yourself in these situations you want to say is a demerit but that's like saying that

spk_0 Muhammad Ali because he breaks the rules of pulling straight back from an opponent right you don't

spk_0 do that no one teaches that yeah but because of his superior reflexes he gets out of trouble with it

spk_0 all the time I mean when Alexander's able to emerge unscathed from these situations you're not

spk_0 supposed to put yourself in it makes it difficult to know how to grade it it's a mistake

spk_0 but a mistake that somehow didn't hurt him in this case he arrives at this city with this king

spk_0 that he wants to get his hands on and the entire area is dominated it sounds like in an almost

spk_0 360 degree maybe bowl-like fashion or almost 360 degree fashion by either really high hills or low

spk_0 mountains that look down on the city and they are heavily wooded and if they aren't already infested

spk_0 with tons of allarian warriors as soon as Alexander shows up they quickly are

spk_0 and he has to try to figure out what to do now he knows another armies on the way so he does what

spk_0 Alexander's pretty darn good at and he attacks there is a quick short sharp encounter we're told

spk_0 and then the people inside the city that he was fighting go back inside the city lock themselves up

spk_0 and Alexander's troops Aryan says find the grisly remains of the sacrifice that had taken place

spk_0 before his little clash three boys three girls three black rams all slaughtered sacrifice seems to

spk_0 have been interrupted in progress maybe but what Alexander's got to deal with now is he's on this

spk_0 plane he's still got an undefeated enemy in front of him and the hills have eyes we're in this

spk_0 mode where you're in scary enemy country I mean it brings up a certain question right we've

spk_0 mentioned that Alexander probably has about 15,000 or so men with him right now can you be frightened

spk_0 if you're surrounded by 15,000 of your own guys maybe because Alexander finds out

spk_0 the very next day after he's already started to implement a plan of walling the city off right we're

spk_0 just going to wall it off Julius Caesar did that it'll easier I mean it's a typical sort of thing

spk_0 to try to do but they've hardly started before the army that the king clitus guy's been waiting

spk_0 for shows up which ruins all of Alexander's plans and traps him even worse now he really is

spk_0 surrounded in native country and he can't hardly move and this is an error remember again we'd

spk_0 mentioned how armies move differently but they're also supplied differently Alexander has no line

spk_0 of supply going back to some base they're sort of on their own whatever they can carry and of course

spk_0 you know scrape up so Alexander sends out a foraging mission they take all the pack animals he

spk_0 sends out a particular commander they go out there to try to find food and they get surrounded in

spk_0 their area the hills around where they go get surrounded by the natives and they're told that when

spk_0 nightfall happens they're engraved danger so Alexander has to put a crack force together including

spk_0 our wonderful the grainy and javlamin the archers he likes a little a few elite guys and they go with

spk_0 Alexander leading see he's involved firsthand in this and they have a rescue mission to go get

spk_0 them out of this area where they've been foraging before the natives can wipe them out

spk_0 but Alexander's problem now is he stuck he can't assault the city without being assaulted from

spk_0 the surrounding heights from the people on the other side of him he can't go after the people

spk_0 on the surrounding heights without the city selling forth and getting him Adrian Goldsworthy

spk_0 in his book Philip and Alexander sort of lays out the situation pointing out that trying to

spk_0 disengage from an enemy you're in contact with is one of the most difficult things in all military

spk_0 maneuvers and Goldsworthy writes quote the situation was dangerous Alexander did not have enough

spk_0 men to attack the city and simultaneously fight off Glaucus who's the other alien commander

spk_0 and could not stay for long where he was because finding food and forage would only leave

spk_0 detachments open to ambush yet escape would not be easy for there was only a narrow route broken

spk_0 by patches of woodland and enclosed by higher ground held by Glaucus on one side and the river

spk_0 on the other. Adrian claimed that at times the track was barely wide enough for four men to march

spk_0 abreast and then he continues by saying withdrawal in the face of the enemy is rarely an easy thing

spk_0 to do especially in mountainous terrain against highly mobile bands of warriors accustomed to the

spk_0 country and inclined to see retreat as a sign of cowardice and quote this is where Adrian's story

spk_0 becomes adrenaline fueled because he gives us sort of a movie like account of Alexander being

spk_0 here there and everywhere and rescuing troops in trouble and trying to get this entire affair of

spk_0 his army extricated from a problem you know that maybe you could get some demerits for having

spk_0 gotten in in the first place but what he does is masterful and he starts off by using the same sort

spk_0 of psychology that we mentioned when he was dealing with the guiti coming through the corn fields

spk_0 well that's what they called it in the ancient ways of wheat fields whatever you want to say

spk_0 and the emergence all of a sudden of the troops they are providing the awe followed by the shock

spk_0 Ian Worthington basically lays it out and so when we said earlier you wonder if something

spk_0 like this is a tool and Alexander's toolbox well that question gets answered Worthington says

spk_0 quote to gain the upper hand over his foes Alexander turned to psychological pressure

spk_0 something for which he would become famous he decided to put on what appeared to be military

spk_0 maneuvers arranging his entire fail-anks into a single block a hundred and fifty ranks deep

spk_0 with cavalry squadrons of two hundred or so on either side of it the men were ordered to march back

spk_0 and forth with their cerises those are their pikes up lowered as if for a charge and then pointing

spk_0 to the right and left before forming into their standard wedge formation all of these moves Worthington

spk_0 rights were carried out in total silence except for the sharp commands to the men to change the

spk_0 directions and angle of their weapons thinking that Alexander was simply drilling his troops

spk_0 glouccius and his men began to move forward more to get a better look at the rigorous and disciplined

spk_0 training of the macadonian infantry than anything else in doing so Worthington rights they played

spk_0 into Alexander's hands the king waited till they were close enough and then gave a pre-arranged

spk_0 signal at once the men turned to face the enemy and shattered the silence as they clashed their

spk_0 swords against their armor and at the top of their voices roared out their battle cry

spk_0 allah allah allah allah I don't know how to pronounce the battle cry over and over again the

spk_0 tribesmen the talantii practically jumped out of their skins and in panic turned tail and fled

spk_0 and to quote that's what we were talking about earlier the fact that so many people can be

spk_0 spooked into running or turning tail because the momentum when some people run for the rest of the

spk_0 people to run is contagious right foe boss the god of fear and Alexander and all the great

spk_0 commanders right understand this and that was simply a display of military drill that so intimidated

spk_0 the tribesmen Adrian Goldsworthy says who couldn't have fought this way and wouldn't have wanted to

spk_0 in a way that made them back off of Alexander and give him room to sort of if you will make a run

spk_0 for it with his troops it's interesting to note that the level of drill here assuming all of

spk_0 this is true although I can see it happening with the Romans for example so I don't know why

spk_0 it couldn't have happened with Alexander the level of drill freaked out de-alirians

spk_0 I mean it's a little like Alexander and I'm reminded of the animal kingdom again where you just

spk_0 can see you know warfare when you know we haven't started fighting yet but I can look at you and

spk_0 there's an intimidation thing it's Mike Tyson on one side of the ring and the other guy on the

spk_0 other side I haven't started punching you yet but I'm already working on you psychologically

spk_0 he's got his troops drilling in front of him as a way to say look at what I can do here do you

spk_0 really want a piece of this and it freaks them out and then when he yells at him it's like okay

spk_0 you're getting a piece of it whether you want it or not and the crowd backs off you know I've always

spk_0 described crowds of people like herds of horses and when the first horses spook the whole crowd kind

spk_0 of spooks it's worth taking a second and just acknowledging here what Aryan says the capabilities of

spk_0 Alexander's forces were in terms of movement and drill because this is an often debated subject

spk_0 in ancient and medieval warfare right how much drill was normal what were the capabilities like

spk_0 some people think you know sometimes they're right that these military forces in the ancient world

spk_0 are little more than mobs of people but then you see the Romans or Alexander here or the Chinese

spk_0 and all of a sudden it's as regimented as anything you'd see later what Aryan talks about here is

spk_0 Alexander's forces being able to do things like moving in a zigzag manner at high speed forming

spk_0 wedges out of I mean it's it's exactly the sort of thing you would see on a parade ground with

spk_0 people graduating from you know a military boot camp today and you're not always going to get

spk_0 a lot of insight into how these people moved and were drilled so this is an interesting clue that

spk_0 will allow us to understand later when Alexander's forces are doing things exactly how they're moving for

spk_0 example now how long these formations stay in good shape once they're fighting the enemies another one

spk_0 of those things people argue about the truth of the matter is though a lot of this is just for show as

spk_0 we said for the psychological impact because Alexander knows darn well he's not in the kind of terrain

spk_0 where being able to form up like this makes much of a difference he's going to be in something closer

spk_0 to like an individual knife fight amongst the rocks in the hills rather than something where you can

spk_0 deploy this whole fatlanks and fight the way you want to but for a second he's got a little

spk_0 respite he's scared the natives away a little bit so he turns with the forces he has and they sort

spk_0 of run and the next vibe you get from Aryan here is sort of the great escape right we're going to

spk_0 get away with the natives nipping at his heels the whole way right show any sign of weakness slow down

spk_0 they're going to get you then all of a sudden in front of them is a hill right so you can feel the

spk_0 adrenaline right now the hill is occupied by the enemy so Alexander put the strike force together

spk_0 they're going to go up and take this hill but the enemy deserts the hill they don't want to have

spk_0 anything to do with Alexander this is a sign by the way of the kind of terrain we're talking about

spk_0 in Elyria because to escape the hill they run uphill right there's apparently either bigger hills

spk_0 or mountains on both sides of this hill so they they escaped the hill by on both sides going up

spk_0 but apparently the hills now available Alexander gets to the hill and now they have to cross some

spk_0 river Alexander tells his forces to cross the river and when you get to the other side start forming

spk_0 up immediately so that if they cross the river on our heels they'll face a fully formed army when

spk_0 they get there but somebody has to be the rear garden protect the rest of the army so they can

spk_0 get across and form up normally you'd leave that probably to some underling not this time Alexander's

spk_0 out there with his like a grainy and javelin men in his 2000 arjum in the same guys in his little guard

spk_0 and they're going to hold the river basically and it is well there's no other way to put it

spk_0 exciting death defying and my brain instantly tries to follow the bread crumbs back to that moment and

spk_0 ask how close is this to anything that really happened once upon a time because when you read your

spk_0 Aryan you sure want it to be true and from the Pamela Mench translation in the wonderful landmark

spk_0 Aryan she has Aryan translated saying this quote when the enemy troops saw Alexander's forces

spk_0 crossing the river they rush down the mountains to attack the columns rear is it with Drew as they

spk_0 drew near Alexander and the men with him salad out and the failings raised its war cry as though to

spk_0 move back through the river and attack the enemy troops with all of Alexander's forces charging them

spk_0 gave way and fled at which point Alexander led the agrarians and archers on the double to the river

spk_0 he was the first to get across and when he saw the enemy attacking his rear guard he had the sea

spk_0 gengens set up on the bank and ordered that they fire every possible kind of missile at the far

spk_0 this range he also ordered the archers to fire a volley from the middle of the river for they too

spk_0 had started to cross the men with glauquies did not dare to come within range of this barrage and

spk_0 so the Macedonians crossed the rivers safely none of them died in the retreat and quote so Alexander

spk_0 masterfully gets himself out of the trap that he himself fell into how do you grade that well before

spk_0 you answer as they used to say in the tv sales pitch videos hold on there's more don't grade quite

spk_0 yet because how do we provide a little extra credit to this assignment when we realize that Alexander

spk_0 then goes back and kills everybody let me elaborate apparently the elirians figure that they've won

spk_0 here they've driven Alexander off he's just you know that this big bad 20 year old with this killer

spk_0 army is running away and they nipped at the teals and good returns to you and stay out right

spk_0 but Alexander's apparently staying in contact with them enough to get intelligence back that they're

spk_0 not being very careful they think he's gone they're not putting out guards they're not safely fortifying

spk_0 their camps they're vulnerable in other words and so he sends his forces back he's preparing a

spk_0 full-on attack but when he gets close by once again leading it himself he sees that they're completely

spk_0 unready for anything so he just goes after them here's the way my translation

spk_0 from obrade de selencore puts it Aryan says quote the moment was ripe for attack so without waiting

spk_0 for the entire force to concentrate he Alexander sent into action the agrarians and the archers

spk_0 who made a surprise assault on a narrow front a formation likely to fall with greatest effect upon

spk_0 the enemy at his weakest point some they killed in their beds others they took without difficulty as

spk_0 they tried to escape many were caught and killed on the spot many more as they fled in panic and

spk_0 disorder not a few were captured alive the pursuit was pressed as far as the mountains in people

spk_0 talking about the tribe that they were fighting territory he says none escaped except at the cost

spk_0 of throwing away their weapons clitus's first move was to the town later he set fire to it and made

spk_0 his way to the talanjians where he sought refuge with glaucus and quote so Alexander and his strike

spk_0 force is agrarians and his two thousand archers and his little elite group go in there at night

spk_0 they're they're supposed to be like a reconnaissance enforce but when they get there everything is

spk_0 so perfectly ripe they don't wait for the rest of the army they fall on these guys kill him in

spk_0 their beds drive him out his foe runs into his fortified city that Alexander had been camped out in

spk_0 front of decides that he has no hope lights the entire city on fire flees to his allies so how do

spk_0 you grade a guy that gets himself in a position like that and then turns it around into that kind of a

spk_0 victory what's more when you look at what's going on here Alexander leading essentially a

spk_0 group of commandos in at night to go destroy an enemy army by hand I mean it's just so different

spk_0 than what you think about him being known for as a generalist we said these great field battles

spk_0 of thousands of people in broad daylight and here he is basically acting you know as a a force

spk_0 10 from Navarone sort of leader albeit a very large force from Navarone but nonetheless

spk_0 it's not the kind of general ship I mean this is a guy who's like knife fighting amongst the

spk_0 rocks it's a weird sort of thing you can't imagine Napoleon doing that right and yet it puts you

spk_0 in a weird position right if you're knife fighting amongst the rocks you could easily get killed

spk_0 which is exactly the rumor that is going around Greece right around this time Alexander has

spk_0 no time to enjoy this victory has no time to follow up on it if that was his plan and no one

spk_0 knows what his plan was he has no time to rest and refit an army that was tired when it got to

spk_0 a lyria because he gets a 911 call from down south near a degree said all Greece is in rebellion

spk_0 and it's getting worse by the day it's like a fire it spreads it intensifies and if he doesn't get

spk_0 down there fast there will be no stopping it the worry is that the alliance of caronia that

spk_0 his father defeated could be reforged and just like it was back then the city of thebes is ground

spk_0 zero for it all there is Persian money at work here and was it cistero that said

spk_0 the sinews of war are endless money well anyone who knows this period knows that when you look at

spk_0 the achaemenid Persian empire it seems like they are the equivalent of the dragon smog from the

spk_0 hob at sitting on a giant pile of gold that no matter how much they spend never seems to get any

spk_0 smaller and they had a leadership crisis over the last little bit the leadership crisis is settled

spk_0 they have a new king on the throne they've examined the situation here realize that Alexander

spk_0 is not a simple to a child or a boob and they better start spending some money or they're going

spk_0 to be facing him you know in person they already have a 10,000 man force of Macedonians in their

spk_0 territory causing trouble so all of a sudden the spigots are open money is being distributed and

spk_0 somehow our old friend in Athens de mastonees is the conduit he's the money laundromer he's the

spk_0 arms trader here and there are all sorts of accusations by the way from some of the ancients

spk_0 most of the stuff I read from the modern secondary sources and historians say almost certainly not true

spk_0 but that de mastonees is taking these enormous sums of money truly arms dealer type money even

spk_0 in keeping it but ancient sources like de dorsiculous say he's paying for weapons and the weapons

spk_0 are being sent to the thiebons to support what's going on in thieves which is talked about by a

spk_0 couple of different sources and yet the sources begin to diverge with this story this is an important

spk_0 story it is one of the most significant blights on Alexander's career coming up here and so people

spk_0 who want to paint Alexander in a positive light have to figure out ways to will spin some of

spk_0 this story de dorsiculous is not one of those people as we told you before he spends all of two

spk_0 sentences on all the stuff we just covered right the threshing the tribale the keels the

spk_0 elirians all that stuff that's two sentences he's going to go into depth in what's about to happen

spk_0 here in thieves arian does the same thing but arian sources guys like tolemay have every

spk_0 incentive here to try to absolve Alexander from some responsibility which is tough to do when

spk_0 you're the king my favorite account of what happens in thieves just to spark this whole rebellion comes

spk_0 from conquest an empire by a b bazaarth basically it involves some of the people that fill up Alexander's

spk_0 dad throughout a thiebs because they were anti him right anti philip elements throw them out of

spk_0 the hell out your banished they come back when Alexander's gone and they are part of a rumour

spk_0 spreading that Alexander is dead now there's a lot to this Alexander is dead thing you have to kind

spk_0 of unpack to know from a legal standpoint because some of this stuff is all going to be argued in

spk_0 legal ease over what the contract was where we had this agreement where you're going to follow me and

spk_0 if Alexander is actually dead there's an argument to be made that any deal that all these places

spk_0 like thieves and Athens and everywhere any deal they made with Alexander's no one void but if

spk_0 you're dead and you have no air you know there is no deal we're not rebelling against you the deal

spk_0 was off the minute you died and that's what I heard happened and when you are like Alexander doing

spk_0 the equivalent of having knife fights amongst the rocks up in the liria it's not that hard to make a

spk_0 case that you might be dead when you don't have continual supply lines like we talked about

spk_0 bearing constant messages back and forth so you're in touch with you know the army in the field

spk_0 that's easy to just say we haven't heard anything for a long time they're probably gone

spk_0 some of these rumors are suggest that the army itself was lost can you imagine if Alexander and

spk_0 the army was lost how hard it would be to keep a bunch of people who only recently were subjected

spk_0 to Macedonia and rule how hard it would be to keep them down here's the way a boseworth describes

spk_0 what happens and to understand when he says the word cadmilla this is the sort of the the we

spk_0 would call it a garrison it's in the acropolis I guess of thieves and it's where the garrison that

spk_0 Philip put in there of Macedonian troops is sort of headquartered and when this rebellion's going

spk_0 to start the thebans are going to sort of put that under siege and a boseworth says quote

spk_0 as the campaign in the north continued and no word of its progress reached the south the rumours

spk_0 circulated that he Alexander had been killed in the Athenian assembly de mothanese produced an

spk_0 eyewitness of his death and speculation was rife over the whole of southern Greece at thebs there

spk_0 was an insurrection a group of exiles wishing to repeat the glorious revolution of 379

spk_0 entered the city by night murdered two members of the Macedonian garrison who were surprised

spk_0 outside the cadmilla and pressed for revolution in the assembly the thebans rose to the appeal

spk_0 and laid siege to the cadmilla they abolished the oligarchic government imposed by Philip

spk_0 it was as a democracy that they passed legislation to resist Alexander the sovereign assembly

spk_0 ratifying a formal it means proclamation by the leaders of the revolt who met in council

spk_0 these actions boseworth rights had challenged every aspect of the common piece

spk_0 an existing constitution had been subverted by exiles and the city was openly at war with

spk_0 Macedon and quote the thebans can put about 7000 really good troops in the field that's nowhere

spk_0 near enough to take on the Macedonians of course but the Greek usually fight outsiders by forming

spk_0 alliances between city states or leagues and in this case the thebans put out a 9-1-1 call asking for help

spk_0 they take the money to mousthenes gives them and they arm all their slaves and they

spk_0 press into service anybody who's in their city just happen to be traveling from elsewhere i mean

spk_0 imagine you're going to sell you know medical supplies in some foreign country and then while

spk_0 you're there working the country your in gets into a war with its neighbors and they hand you a

spk_0 weapon and say sorry we have to everybody who's capable of carrying arms we need you

spk_0 so the thebans are desperate and they expect help and help us on the way but then the help that is

spk_0 on the way stops and this becomes a pattern the archadian league for example raises an army sends it

spk_0 to the ifsmas which is what divides the south of Greece and the rest of Greece and they just sit

spk_0 there the mousthenes is able to get the Athenians to say yeah we're with the thebans but they don't

spk_0 do anything more than that everybody's kind of waiting i mean what's going to happen here's

spk_0 Alexander dead and if he's not what's going to happen to thebes and besides the signs are terrible

spk_0 remember this is a people that believe in what their oracles tell them if you can ever make sense

spk_0 of the opaque magic eight ball style answers that these oracles often give but the signs have

spk_0 not looked good for months deodoros syculus says that a giant spiders web appeared outside a very

spk_0 important shrine and it was iridescent and rainbow they're seeing blood on the water in certain

spk_0 important places certain other shrines are having issues and the statues and thieves begin to sweat

spk_0 in my robin waterfield translation of deodoros he explains what all this is and remember deodoros

spk_0 believes it and he says quote in the first place a fine spiders web appeared in the sanctuary of

spk_0 demeter which was not just as big as a and then he describes a very big thing but was also

spk_0 surrounded by an iridescent sheen like a rainbow in the sky when they consulted the delphic oracle

spk_0 about it they received the following reply now the oracle says this sign is intended by the gods

spk_0 for all men but especially for the beotians and their neighbors the beotians being the thibans

spk_0 and their neighbors so the thebans then take this question to a local shrine because you know if it's

spk_0 for the beotians and their neighbors why not consult our own shrine deodoros says quote and the national

spk_0 oracle of thieves gave them this reply the woven web is bad for one but good for another this

spk_0 sign says deodoros appeared about three months before Alexander came to thieves and then at the time

spk_0 of his arrival the statues in the agora visibly dripped sweat and were covered with great gouts of it

spk_0 end quote he then says that there were reports of a sound very like a bellow he says coming from

spk_0 certain important marshes a blood colored ripple was running down the surface of the water in

spk_0 another location at delphi he says there was blood on the roof of a temple that involved the

spk_0 thibans and deodoros says the message that was being sent is clear quote the professional

spk_0 interpreters of signs said that the meaning of the web was that the gods were departing from the

spk_0 city while it's many hues meant that there would be a storm of various troubles that the sweating

spk_0 statues meant overwhelming disaster and that the appearance of blood in several places meant that a

spk_0 great slaughter would take place in the city since the gods were clearly predicting catastrophe for

spk_0 the city the advice of the experts was that the thibans should not commit themselves to deciding

spk_0 the war on the battlefield but should rely on negotiation as an alternative safer way to settle

spk_0 matters and quote the thiban response seems to be something along the lines of screw that we're

spk_0 fighting now as we said earlier the accounts of arian and deodoros start to differ quite a bit

spk_0 here i mean deodoros sounds like he's writing about the american revolution from the american

spk_0 side and arian sounds like he's writing it from the british side and yet the story of the american

spk_0 revolution that they're writing about in that story the american revolution is crushed by the

spk_0 british and it's hundreds of years later in arian's basically trying to explain all this freedom

spk_0 and independent stuff that was being thrown around thieves and he basically treats it like a kind of

spk_0 a delusion or that the people are preyed upon by these you know slick guys using the cute you know

spk_0 old words right by using freedom and liberty as a way to sort of arouse the people into a fever

spk_0 that would lead to terrible things and by the way this is from my martin ham and translation and

spk_0 arian is explaining the story from the start here he says quote meanwhile some of the thiban

spk_0 exiles who had been expelled from the city made a covert return to thieves at night invited back

spk_0 by a group in the city with revolutionary intent these exiles captured and killed amantus and

spk_0 timaleus two officers of the garrison occupying the cadmilla who were outside their base quite

spk_0 unsuspecting of any enemy action they then came before the assembly and incited the thibans to

spk_0 revolt from Alexander making play with the final slogans of freedom and independence and urging

spk_0 that now at last was the time to be rid of the heavy hand of mccadonian rule and quote arian then

spk_0 kind of provides an out here for the common people that maybe they didn't believe all this liberty

spk_0 stuff necessarily but the revolutionaries were telling them that Alexander was dead and that

spk_0 seemed to be the better argument from their point of view arian says quote what told more with

spk_0 the general people was their assertion that Alexander had died in a lyria there was indeed a strong

spk_0 and widespread rumour to this effect since he had been away long and no word had come from him

spk_0 so that it tends to happen at such times in ignorance of the facts people assumed what they wanted to

spk_0 believe and quote so dismissive of the people treating things like freedom and independence as

spk_0 slogans that politicians would use to sort of move the dull masses but I've always found it a

spk_0 fascinating sort of way to approach it remember arian lives at a time when he's subject to an emperor

spk_0 and he likes it but he kind of makes it sound like these revolutionaries as he calls them

spk_0 are leading the people by the nose here and they've got to keep these lies as a gym jones aspect to

spk_0 this in the way arian does it got to keep these lies alive unfortunately for them

spk_0 Alexander is on the way to show that they are lies and he's coming at a truly Alexanderan

spk_0 pace as we pointed out this is one of his great qualities Peter Green says the pace of Alexander's

spk_0 here outpaces the news of his arrival the door is succulous just says all of a sudden Alexander's

spk_0 army just appeared outside the gates of the ebes in Worthing to break down more than that though

spk_0 Alexander turns his army south from Elyria and marches it remember it's tired already 250 miles

spk_0 in 13 days with one day off to rest or remember most of these guys are on foot

spk_0 crazily enough i read in a couple of different sources because it's shocking the army seem to

spk_0 make the same 18 to 20 miles per day rate whether they're on flat easy ground or going through crazy

spk_0 mountain passes the revolutionaries as arian would call them in the city find out that Alexander

spk_0 is on the way when he's like three or four hours march distant and of course the people that are

spk_0 buying the revolutionaries you know jive arian would say look to them is it what what about this and

spk_0 so they say that's not Alexander he could never be here that fast that's antipater is general that

spk_0 was in maca doni this isn't the full maca doni in army and that's not Alexander but Alexander had

spk_0 sent a message to antipater basically saying get the rest of the army together that's not with me

spk_0 on this northern strike force and meet me outside the walls the thieves he tells the other cities around

spk_0 thieves that have been sort of bullied by thieves for a while hey you know something bad might

spk_0 happen to the bully you don't like you want to be there meet me there too and by the time the

spk_0 thiebans see an army basically appearing nearby them it's 30,000 foot and 3000 horse with siege weapons

spk_0 Alexander and the army just sort of camp out in front of theives for a couple of days the

spk_0 sources say and negotiations start the sources making sound like Alexander tries to be cool here

spk_0 mainly because he doesn't want this problem at all certainly doesn't want to damage his armies

spk_0 planning on going over and attacking the Persians and all this is just upsetting his timeline he wants

spk_0 it to go away all he asks for is you know a couple of ring leaders to be turned over really cool

spk_0 terms the thiebans are having none of it deodoris sort of writing from the position of the

spk_0 American revolutionaries in the revolutionary war that got crushed that it's a give me liberty

spk_0 your give me death moment and if not they they're pumping themselves up he says by reminding

spk_0 themselves how bad ass they used to be and how they still are actually but there's only like 7,000

spk_0 of them and Alexander can't believe that 7,000 of them are ready to face 30,000 Macedonian infantry

spk_0 and 3000 Macedonian horse that is so experienced veteran and nasty that they're going to go take

spk_0 over the biggest empire in the world so I mean just seems ludicrous and arian portraying it from

spk_0 the you know upper class British side of things after we destroyed those colonial several hundred

spk_0 years ago tries to have some sort of sympathy with the people suggesting that they're just diluted

spk_0 again by these revolutionaries as he points out who have everything to lose because no matter

spk_0 what happens they're not going to fare well so why not you know take the whole city down with them

spk_0 and Alexander's hip to that because he actually says at one point in the you know with the

spk_0 negotiations between the two he's sending heralds out they're sending heralds out they're yelling

spk_0 to each other the terms he actually says hey anybody in the city that doesn't want to go along with

spk_0 that right how'd you like to be on the losing end of a 60 40 vote on do we you know take on Alexander

spk_0 or not he basically says to the 40% that we're on the losing end or whatever it was hey if you didn't

spk_0 agree with that you can come over and you'll be spared just come out of the city and instead you

spk_0 know he gets attacked by a light infantry and cavalry sort of quick strike force that kills a

spk_0 couple of Macedonians not necessarily in the order I just portrayed it this is all kind of

spk_0 happening at once these are the negotiations to try to figure out whether this battle really has

spk_0 to happen but then the thiebans do something that in hindsight but they must have known it in a

spk_0 way too looks like taunting the lion here and when Alexander basically says portraying himself by

spk_0 the way Peter Green says it's sort of the lawful representative of the league of Corinth right he's

spk_0 not a butcher or a conqueror he's coming here to enforce the rules we all agreed on I'm not some

spk_0 you know bad guys so that's that's he's sort of portraying himself that way Peter Green says though

spk_0 that the response of the thiebans here in the face of potential obliteration puts the lie to

spk_0 Alexander's framing of himself here in green writes quote the thiebans of course knew this as well

spk_0 as anyone and their next move deliberately blew Alexander's polite fiction sky high in the most

spk_0 public possible manner by doing so they sealed their own fate from the highest tower of thieves

spk_0 their herald made a counter demand and a counter offer they would he announced be willing to

spk_0 negotiate with Alexander if the Macedonian first surrendered and tippeter and philotus and quote let

spk_0 me stop you there it's like asking for two of their top guys yeah I don't want you to give us

spk_0 your two top guys and we all won't go after you green continues quote after this little pleasant

spk_0 tree he went on to proclaim now quoting the herald that anyone who wished to join the great king

spk_0 of Persia and thebes in freeing the Greeks and destroying the tyrant of Greece should come over to

spk_0 them green says quote the venomous conciseness of this indictment was calculated to flick Alexander

spk_0 on the jaw and the reference to a Persian on tunt which might just conceivably be true could

spk_0 hardly help striking home if the thiebans main object was to provoke the king into discarding his

spk_0 holier than thou mask they succeeded all too well the word tyrant stung Alexander no one

spk_0 likes hearing unwelcome home truths about themselves least of all the general whose men are within

spk_0 earshot and he flew into one of his famous rages end quote Alexander is famous for his rages

spk_0 and this is really the first time we bring it up because it's the first time it really comes into

spk_0 play at the same time there are power politics reasons for doing what he's about to do also

spk_0 so it is tough to know where one leaves off in the other begins plutarch the ancient also greek

spk_0 but in the roman era historian plutarch mentions this early on and baldamara heckle in his book

spk_0 in the path of conquest points it out when he says quote for the first of many times Alexander

spk_0 meant to use the terror of destruction and annihilation to make an example of those who dared to defy him

spk_0 thinking that now quoting plutarch the Greeks would be shocked by a disaster of such proportions

spk_0 and thus frightened into an action end quote so maybe when it comes to the anger versus the power

spk_0 politics move maybe a little a column a little column b now i can't help but think about this

spk_0 divide for a minute because if Alexander doing this purely for geopolitical reasons power

spk_0 politics reasons will shoot that's just par for the course right how many leaders and generals

spk_0 and conquerors in history do things for that reason but if this guy is really doing a lot of what

spk_0 he's doing because he loses it sometimes you know regrets it later wish it didn't happen but of

spk_0 course you can't really turn back time if some of what happens in this story is based on this guy

spk_0 getting pissed off and not being able to control himself think about what a personality trait that

spk_0 is and how it's sort of intersects with some key moments in history here like this one

spk_0 deodoros says Alexander shows up he's going to be cool he wants to make a deal just wants to get

spk_0 on with this because remember the last time he showed up with an army outside of thieves the

spk_0 even just sort of rolled over right away and maybe he had this idea that they could do it again

spk_0 green basically says Alexander was going to let him get off the hook with the we thought you were

spk_0 dead thing right so how cool can you be and the thiebons and the waterfield translation deodoros

spk_0 says Alexander thought the thiebons treated him with contempt in the low classical translation it says

spk_0 that Alexander figured out essentially that that the ebons despised him and so he decided to destroy

spk_0 the city utterly and then deodoros says he made that call and said you know anybody who wanted to

spk_0 surrender could and the thiebons essentially flipped him off which made him go crazy and that's when

spk_0 he decided deodoros says to destroy the city even worse than he decided to destroy the city before

spk_0 and to teach the rest of Greece a lesson so sort of a side benefit there so there's a

spk_0 actual order that you know okay you pissed me off finally enough and it's on and Plutarch makes

spk_0 it sound sort of more mechanical too you know are you going to give me what I want no okay we're

spk_0 attacking Erie and though remember what I said if you're trying to explain a way something that

spk_0 is a famous blight on Alexander the greats reputation you got us jump through some hoops now here and

spk_0 if your main source is tolamy who was probably there and you had people he hated commanding other

spk_0 parts of the army and it's your account we're going from and you also want to try to absolve Alexander

spk_0 as much as you can from responsibility because well it reflects on you he was your friend there's a

spk_0 Alexander the complete opposite of a rage machine Alexander is the absolute soul of you know sort

spk_0 of rationality he's reluctant to do anything both he and deodoros say that he just sort of camps out

spk_0 in front of thieves for a little while and can you imagine you know you could do a whole movie on

spk_0 what it must have been like inside the city in terms of the percolating arguments between people

spk_0 remember all these Greek cities are divided into different factions and these revolutionaries

spk_0 they come in and and now they have Alexander outside their gates and you know it's only like two

spk_0 or three weeks since the the so-called revolution right actually say do the math here it's probably

spk_0 closer to a month but you get the point I mean people must be boiling over someone a surrender

spk_0 and Alexander session you can surrender someone to fight on especially the guys who are going to

spk_0 get executed no matter what I mean it's always dangerous all real historians will tell you it's

spk_0 crazy dangerous to to play with analogies here but the way the translations all phrase it from

spk_0 the primary sources is this is a freedom thing even if what the Thebans think of as freedom doesn't

spk_0 match what we think of as freedom at all and we should also point out that you know before we

spk_0 side to wholeheartedly with the Thebans here as people who like freedom ourselves the neighbors of

spk_0 Thebes who were often at the receiving end of Thebes bullying and whatnot they might say why are you

spk_0 citing with the bad guys here and when they say with Alexander they're finally getting a chance to

spk_0 punch the bully in the nose maybe but in this case the rhetoric of Thebes in the translations

spk_0 appeals to us because it sounds like well if you're an American especially but the funny thing about

spk_0 the Americans against the British is once upon a time you know the British are having their own

spk_0 revolutions I mean people all over the world can understand this idea of being in a sort of a war

spk_0 to preserve or regain one's freedom and independence and maybe having it be a war against all odds and

spk_0 that's the way The Thebans sort of see this thing and so when Alexander says just give me those two

spk_0 guys and we'll call it good that also means and we'll go back to the way things were when I was

spk_0 running the show and you didn't have your freedom that's the real deal he's asking for and a lot

spk_0 of us can understand being unwilling to take a deal like that the difference here though when it

spk_0 starts getting really dark and you can just feel it is The Thebans first of all arming your slaves

spk_0 and arming the merchants and the people who are just visiting the city with weapons gives you a

spk_0 sense of the level of the danger but it's also the taking of your wives and your children and

spk_0 all of the old people and running them into the sanctuaries and religious temples hoping that if

spk_0 something bad happens and you know the odds are probably 80-20 I mean you can puff yourself up

spk_0 all you want you can say that the defenses and being on the defensive of the city here's a force

spk_0 multiplier and it is but this is an army that was just about is just about to go overseas and take

spk_0 on the biggest empire in the world their veterans they they well never lost under Alexander rarely

spk_0 lost under his father this doesn't look good so you hope when you take your vulnerable parts the

spk_0 population to the temples that they'll be safe there and it's a pretty good chance they won't and

spk_0 you know that off the top of my head I find it hard to think of anything more likely to create a

spk_0 sense of crushing pressure and desperation on the part of everyone in this story I mean the

spk_0 mother looking down at their child in one of these temples thinking about what the next 24

spk_0 hours might look like the soldier on the front line thinking about his family back in these temples

spk_0 and knowing what happens in the sacking of cities in the ancient world normally thinking about

spk_0 that happening to the p i i can't think of anything more likely to make me fight with unbelievable

spk_0 ferocity than that and it still blows my mind that when the thiebons apparently had to get out of

spk_0 jail free card here and none of this had to happen they didn't use it right they were offered the

spk_0 chance to get out of this with just handing over a couple of ring leaders you know a couple of

spk_0 these revolutionary thugs who came into the city maybe area and would say and hoodwinked the people

spk_0 and they turned it down all they had to do was give up their freedom and none of this has to happen

spk_0 and if this turns out the way it's likely to turn out they're not going to have any freedom anyway

spk_0 that's the real irony of the whole deal and this is what they chose and they thought they were

spk_0 going to have help but interestingly enough the other Greek states who also you know want their

spk_0 own freedom autonomy liberty and all that sort of stuff whatever it means to them they think that

spk_0 maybe the thiebons are getting what they deserve here because after all nobody told you to be that

spk_0 thick necked about it right you couldn't negotiate it that's what the oracles would have signs

spk_0 were all saying and the prophecies but you had to go be all thick neck about it had to take that

spk_0 give me liberty or give me death thing a little bit too literally well I can't help you this time

spk_0 and the thiebons knowing this go through with this anyway it's a very interesting situation

spk_0 deodoris looks at it as positively heroic

spk_0 Aryans his Alexander marches his army around to the side of one of thiebs's walls at a certain point

spk_0 the cities you have to imagine the city surrounded by a nice stout wall all the way around

spk_0 but on one part of it it butts right up to that area where Alexander's Macedonian

spk_0 garrison is trapped and has been under siege since this little revolution began right the

spk_0 thiebons built a couple of palisades out there to sort of wall it off from any sort of help but it's

spk_0 right up against the wall those palisades I had to look it up to get a real good idea what they

spk_0 mean when they say that is that and and there can be variations or imagine those sorts of walls

spk_0 that you've seen that are essentially a bunch of tree trunks sharpened at the top and then

spk_0 placed in the ground one right next to it I just so there's no gaps between them and there's

spk_0 a couple of those a couple of lines of them with space for troops to fight in between that now

spk_0 is sort of if you think about it this way the weak spot in the defenses because instead of the

spk_0 stout regular wall of thiebs they have this you know double sort of temporary wall and that's where

spk_0 Alexander takes his troops over to that side because if he can punch through there he's also right

spk_0 by you know we're all his other soldiers are trapped in the garrison can link up with his forces

spk_0 and then it's all over the thiebons know this too so that's where they've placed their troops and

spk_0 this whole battle is going to be fought over these barricades it's a barricade battle if you will

spk_0 it's good for the thiebons it nullifies some of what the Macedonians do best sort of is a great

spk_0 equalizer didn't we say force multiplier earlier but they're still outnumbered four or five to one

spk_0 and while their regular soldiers they're 7,000 infantry in cavalry are very good you know you can't

spk_0 count on the slave to do well against the Macedonians where you're traveling salesman or your guy

spk_0 just vacationing in thiebs or divisive mother or whatever it is that you've just harmed this is

spk_0 a bit of a last stand sort of deal it reminds you of all the great last stands in history from

spk_0 Thermopylae to the Alamo and all those kinds of things with a small chance of success deodoros

spk_0 makes it even a little bit more of a close run thing deodoros and plutark both have Alexander

spk_0 sort of preparing his forces for the assault and then when he's ready when the artillery is assembled

spk_0 launching it essentially pretty straightforward area and on the other hand as we've already

spk_0 alluded to using tolamy as a source and tolamy having every reason to absolve Alexander for as

spk_0 much of this responsibility as possible says that the fighting started when one of Alexander's

spk_0 subordinates named perticus attacked with his forces without orders and unauthorized assault

spk_0 the leader of the unauthorized assault just happens to be the arch enemy of tolamy so I mean

spk_0 think about how elegant this is he gets to write his history gets to laud and sort of defend his boss

spk_0 and friend and the person he owes his legitimacy to while at the same time turning around and

spk_0 shifting the blame for all these terrible things Alexander's critics say about you know how he

spk_0 handled all this theban stuff and blame it all on his worst enemy it's a two for one deal it's

spk_0 wonderful but we have to notice it doesn't mean it didn't happen Adrian goals were the in his

spk_0 Philip and Alexander he talks about how when you station troops so close together maybe with that

spk_0 barricading between them but think about the things they're said to one another it's not uncommon

spk_0 for troops to sort of in an unauthorized way just lose it in the salt when that happens though

spk_0 no matter what the reason Alexander's force to throw in more troops to protect the flank so that

spk_0 perticus and his forces don't get cut off and surrounded that sucks in eventually the rest of

spk_0 Alexander's army and the area in account is one where Alexander never even really launched the

spk_0 assault on thieves he just got dragged into it plausible deniability for whatever happens next

spk_0 it's all perticus's fault perticus though in the deodoris version is like the hero the guy who

spk_0 leads sort of a commando assault when Alexander's somewhere in the midst of the fighting seize

spk_0 an unguarded gate or door but before that happens things break out over the palace aid and

spk_0 deodoris says everybody starts throwing everything they they can over sort of the divide

spk_0 it's easier for me to envision this kind of a battle than a more open ancient battle because

spk_0 you can see this sometimes in riots and go look at riot footage where you have a barricade

spk_0 essentially of of shields or a wall in there and the fight it breaks up the fighting and turns it

spk_0 into something that is pretty predictable so these large groups of people so throwing things

spk_0 over the barricade and and pushing and shoving no specific word on whether the artillery was used

spk_0 to punch a hole in one of these palisades but somehow a hole is punched and no one says of

spk_0 course how wide it is but perticus and his forces stream through and are able to get to the second

spk_0 palisade remember there's one and open space and then another but he and his troops get trapped

spk_0 there and stopped and the fighting is going on Alexander sends the agrarians and the archers you

spk_0 know his famous quick strike force into the breach tells them to fan out they start apparently

spk_0 trapping a theban unit again hard to imagine the sizes of the forces we're talking about here

spk_0 but I love the way in arian he specifically says over by the sunken road near the temple of

spk_0 harrickly says though it's still there you can go see it that's right where they got all trapped

spk_0 and the archers are sort of keeping them at bay and then at a certain point arian says the

spk_0 thebanes who are kept at bay run away the light troops chase them and then at almost like a

spk_0 prearranged signal the thebanes who are running away with a shout turn around in formation the you

spk_0 can almost see it's like a a movie where the archers and everybody who are chasing them and so

spk_0 confident all of a sudden they're at the point of the spears and arian says about 70 archers were

spk_0 killed along with their leader the rest of them run back towards Alexander supposedly for the

spk_0 protection of the heavier troops and while the thebanes who just killed those archers and just turned

spk_0 around and yelled and had this temporary victory while they're chasing now the people that used

spk_0 to be chasing them they get all strung out they lose formation and then they run into Alexander

spk_0 in the close order troops deodoros has an account that is much more last standish with the thebanes

spk_0 doing so well they almost win he says they take on Alexander's first forces and they wear them down

spk_0 he says that the macadonians have the numbers and the depth of the formation but the thebanes because

spk_0 they go to the gym are in better shape and that the two sort of balance each other out for a while

spk_0 and then after the thebanes deodoros says send the first unit back to go rest and refit

spk_0 Alexander throws in the reserves which normally would do the trick according to deodoros you don't

spk_0 know when the reserves come in that's normally what it's over but not this time the thebanes fighting

spk_0 for all that they had you know for freedom for their families back in the temples everything

spk_0 they're holding their own now against the reserves and sort of deodoros has them like yelling

spk_0 slurs at each other and you know you know who superior now all these kinds of things but in a very

spk_0 like Persians getting around the path of thermopoly and attacking the Spartans in the rear way

spk_0 as we said Alexander specifically maybe according to these accounts spies and unguarded gate or

spk_0 door or something in the walls he sends pericost the hero of the deodoros story I guess you could

spk_0 say the villain of the Aryan story to go with some troops and take it that gets him sort of behind

spk_0 the theban defenses and both deodoros and Aryan sort of have this moment it's the same moment

spk_0 where everything sort of falls apart and it's when the thebanes in Aryan's account they sort of get

spk_0 they panic but in deodoros's account they realize that they've been compromised and that the

spk_0 only way to not be surrounded is to back up into the walls of the city so his is a more organized

spk_0 effort to continue the fight and just sort of retire to a better defensive position whereas

spk_0 Aryan makes it sound more like at a certain point everybody just sort of panics deodoros explains

spk_0 what happens though an Aryan through his own lens talks about the same incident so this is

spk_0 clearly the key moment in the battle and deodoros from the lobe classical translation and I think

spk_0 originally that was translated by sea Bradford Wells deodoros as quote so the theban spirit proved

spk_0 unshakeable here but the king meaning Alexander took note of a posturing gate that had been

spk_0 deserted by its guards and hurried pericost with a large detachment of troops to seize it and

spk_0 penetrate into the city he quickly carried out the order and the mackadonian slipped through the

spk_0 gate into the city while the thebans having worn down the first assault wave of mackadonians

spk_0 stoutly faced the second and still had high hopes of victory when they knew that a section of

spk_0 the city had been taken however they began immediately to withdraw within its walls but in this

spk_0 operation their cavalry galloped along with the infantry into the city and trampled upon and

spk_0 killed many of their own men they themselves rode into the city and disorder and encountering a

spk_0 maze of narrow alleys and trenches lost their footing and fell and were killed by their own weapons

spk_0 at the same time the mackadonian garrison in the cadmium burst out of the citadel engaged the

spk_0 thebans and attacking them in their confusion made great slaughter among them end quote as deodoros says

spk_0 there very quickly the mackadonians when they broke through the city walls and got into the city

spk_0 they ran up to where the mackadonian garrison was under siege you know unseaged them for lack of a

spk_0 better word and had them join the fight too so it's all over except for the killing the last

spk_0 stand if you will is made over by a particular temple which makes you wonder if it was sort of the

spk_0 fall back point maybe the agreed upon place where everybody meets if all you know the worst happens

spk_0 and maybe there's a lot of invalids and vulnerable population members hold up their who knows

spk_0 bring the army back there and defend everybody as best you can

spk_0 eventually the defenders are surrounded on all sides they will break a rean has the cavalry

spk_0 running out of the city at high speed and over the plane and getting away in the infantry trying

spk_0 to save their skins as he says as best they can but at a certain point it's hard to know when that

spk_0 moment specifically happens but the vibe changes from one of fighting and battle where both sides

spk_0 are equally at risk to sacking and killing and pillaging and looting deodoros talks about

spk_0 all of the thieb and fighters who were still scattered in little pockets all over the city remember

spk_0 this is a big city and they had these narrow little Greek streets with sometimes buildings two three

spk_0 four stories tall on either side so these are little bottleneck killing zones where deodoros has

spk_0 soldiers who are so you know wounded from the fighting that they're essentially bleeding out slowly

spk_0 supporting themselves on the half of their broken spears just waiting for some

spk_0 macadonian to come down this little alley thinking he's looting and enjoying himself and that all

spk_0 the danger is over and then boom you can still take one with you was what Churchill said right and

spk_0 that's how these thiebans and deodoros is a counter looking at things but otherwise it's pure

spk_0 murder rape and slaughter this is the way in his book Philip and Alexander historian Adrian

spk_0 goldsworthy puts it quote the macadonian sacked the city they had done this before when cities had

spk_0 failed to surrender to Philip and forced him to take them by assault but never before had they

spk_0 taken a Greek city as large and as famous as thieves storming fortifications goldsworthy rights

spk_0 was dangerous and they had lost 500 dead as well as no doubt many others wounded including

spk_0 the survivors they're blood up anger at the enemy still fresh and in the narrow streets and

spk_0 dark houses of the city able to do what they wished judged only by the opinions of their comrades

spk_0 killed raped and plundered at will and quote he then continues later quote murder and rape were

spk_0 accepted as inevitable when the city was stormed while it is doubtful that Alexander and his

spk_0 officers could have controlled the army fully and entirely prevented such things it is equally

spk_0 unlikely that they even thought to try beyond protecting some households and individuals who were

spk_0 considered important or otherwise favored this goldsworthy rights was just part of war and from a

spk_0 pragmatic point of view Philip and Alexander both recognized the power of terror and quote

spk_0 it wasn't just in terms of the atrocities which again if we're using modern terms here made headlines

spk_0 everywhere the Macedonians especially an Aryan's account get off a little easy here because the worst

spk_0 of the atrocities are blamed not on the Macedonians but on the Greeks who are fighting with Alexander

spk_0 right the ones he called up and said hey we're going to be taken on your bully you want to come

spk_0 those guys have an axe to grind long long standing problems and and wounds and things that they

spk_0 could be angry at the demons about and they're finally getting a chance to take revenge and they are

spk_0 taking revenge as one historian said though while some of the worst atrocities might have been done

spk_0 by these Greek allies of Alexander's the majority of what was done was done by the Macedonian

spk_0 soldiers it didn't matter it leaves an unbelievably bloody horrific taste in the mouth of a guy like

spk_0 Diodorus who you can just hear you know we would say today he was a patriotic Greek thinking of

spk_0 these ancestors of his from a couple hundred years previously and it just hurts him to admit

spk_0 that the other Greeks were doing a lot of the terrible things right fellow Greeks shouldn't be

spk_0 fighting fellow Greeks Aryan is almost happy to blame it on them because it means it's not Alexander's

spk_0 fault Diodorus from a low classical translation says quote all the city was pillaged everywhere

spk_0 boys and girls were dragged into captivity as they wailed pitiously the names of their mothers

spk_0 in some meaning in total households were seized with all their members and the cities in slave

spk_0 it was complete of the men who remained he writes some wounded and dying grappled with the foe

spk_0 and were slain themselves as they destroyed their enemy others supported only by a shattered

spk_0 spear went to meet their assailants and in the supreme struggle held freedom dearer than life

spk_0 as the slaughter mounted Diodorus said and every corner of the city was piled high with corpses no

spk_0 one could have failed to piti the plight of the unfortunate end quote now the part that hurts

spk_0 this guy we would call him a patriotic Greek today and Greeks should not be doing this to other

spk_0 Greeks but it must have gone on so much that even he asked to admit it and he says that these

spk_0 people who hated the Thracians got into the city with Alexander and did horrible things he writes

spk_0 quote for even Greeks thespians Plataeans and Orchiminians and some others hostile to thebs who would

spk_0 join the king in the campaign meaning Alexander invaded the city along with him and now demonstrated

spk_0 their own hatred amid the calamities of the unfortunate victims so it was that many terrible things

spk_0 befell the city he writes Greeks were mercilessly slain by Greeks relatives were butchered by their

spk_0 own relatives and even a common dialect induced no pity in the end he writes when night finally

spk_0 intervened the houses had been plundered and the children and women and aged persons who had fled

spk_0 into the temples were torn from sanctuary and subjected to outrage without limit over 6,000

spk_0 Thebans perished more than 30,000 were captured and the amount of property plundered was unbelievable

spk_0 end quote but what to do what to do what to do with all this stuff

spk_0 Alexander famously holds a sort of ad hoc spur of the moment made up of what we have around this

spk_0 kind of legal counsel to sort of represent the league of Corinth in miniature they're going to have

spk_0 a sort of a hearing what do we do here with our slaves in this city and what's left what we

spk_0 didn't kill what's going to happen to all of this now this is another one of these things where

spk_0 half the time Alexander sounds like a barbarian stomping around doing whatever he wants to do no

spk_0 rules apply and whatever and the other half of the time he sounds like everything is strictly

spk_0 legal all the arguments he makes with other Greek city states could be made by lawyers

spk_0 in this case he's turning it over to someone else and he says to these other Greeks well listen

spk_0 I'm just the representative I'm the hedge im on of this organization but we're going to vote on

spk_0 what happens to the Thebans unfortunately it seems that the majority of the people who could be

spk_0 scraped up on the spur of the moment either accidentally or on purpose are all these little

spk_0 city states around thebes that have been victims of its bullying forever and somehow the deal is

spk_0 if they vote the worst possible penalty the land that thebes had will be parcled out amongst them

spk_0 so what should we do to the Thebans and if this was a gladiatorial contest they give it the thumbs

spk_0 down now Alexander as so many historians have pointed out we'll just basically do what they

spk_0 tell him to do but as everyone says but if he didn't want to do this it wouldn't have happened

spk_0 so this is cover the thing is is nobody can really believe anything like this will happen

spk_0 I mean if you want to use a modern term for what Thebes is in terms of how important a Greek

spk_0 city state it is it is a city state too big to fail you just can't believe anybody would

spk_0 destroy it I mean Greek city states have been destroyed before but not like this I mean

spk_0 you know if Athens is New York and Sparta was Chicago then Thebes is Los Angeles right once upon

spk_0 a time Chicago was bigger than Los Angeles but this time Los Angeles has eclipsed it and

spk_0 I mean you wouldn't want to destroy Los Angeles which I mean you know some of you might but the

spk_0 whole point being that you can't imagine the waste involved in taking out something that large

spk_0 and important and meaningful well interestingly enough I was reading it might have been

spk_0 volumar heckle but it was somebody making a point I hadn't thought about really which was that the

spk_0 logical play here for the arguments being made because it's almost like a hearing right the other

spk_0 Thieben bully victims would have every right to talk about all the things Thebes had done to them

spk_0 right we're gonna pay him back as look at all these things it's only fair justice but that's not

spk_0 what they do they bring up the fact that the Thieben s cited with the Persians 150 years ago

spk_0 that's the angle they push which happens to be perfectly lined up with Alexander's propaganda

spk_0 angle here for this war we're paying back these Persians for what they did was 150 years ago

spk_0 and oh yeah the Thebes were on their side and did you hear what they said to me Alexander would

spk_0 probably had somebody say for him when we were all standing there we all heard it come and join

spk_0 the Great King the Even's and the Great King working together again wiping out Thebes is like saying

spk_0 these guys were betraying us the rest of Greece to the cause they went against the League of

spk_0 Corinth they violated the rules they're like an enemy in our midst they're working with the Great

spk_0 King they're taking money all these weapons that killed 500 of my troops in this encounter

spk_0 representing you the League of Corinth were paid for by the Great King's money oh yeah it wasn't

spk_0 my decision anyway and all these other people from around the region decide it's thumbs down for Thebes

spk_0 and the city will end up being so totally destroyed that I read one historian once that said it might

spk_0 as well have been done by an atomic weapon in typical Greek fashion he exempts the temples from

spk_0 destruction that's normal in typically Alexandrian fashion he exempts the descendants of a particular

spk_0 poet that praised the Macedonians in the past but otherwise it's 30,000 people sold into slavery

spk_0 and a rule put into place that says that after we destroy the city where these people live and

spk_0 scatter them to the winds anyone who takes them in is guilty of a crime

spk_0 a b-boss worth sums the whole affair up when he says in conquest and empire quote the Greek world now

spk_0 had a shocking example of the consequences of resistance one of the leading cities of the

spk_0 Greek world had been destroyed in a single day as though by visitation of the gods so Eskinese

spk_0 lamented in 330 and the litany of Shaken sorrow was to be repeated through the centuries there was a

spk_0 ground swell of sympathy for the victims despite the prohibition b-boss worth rights against giving

spk_0 sugar to the refugees they were received into neighboring cities notably Athens and acrofinium

spk_0 and nearly 20 years later when Cassander proclaimed the restoration of Thebes there was enthusiastic

spk_0 support from as far afield as Italy and Sicily though b-boss worth rights the immediate reaction

spk_0 was panic and quote the Greeks start bowing and scraping in a totty like fashion not the Spartans but

spk_0 they've never been a part of this league of Corinth but like the archadians who got an army

spk_0 together sent it to the Ismus and waited they vote to execute the people who'd proposed sending

spk_0 that army up there and the ones who led it yeah well those guys they were way out of line

spk_0 Athens says representatives along with everyone else but at the same time they're preparing for a

spk_0 siege they figure they're next meanwhile they're sending representatives this is so Athenian like

spk_0 isn't it they're the same ones remember who said that nobody could find any sanctuary if they

spk_0 assassinated Philip II they said that right at his games and then he was killed five minutes later

spk_0 when they were celebrating it while they're doing it again as soon as Alexander you know is

spk_0 available they send their representative saying oh my goodness thank goodness you've made it safe

spk_0 back from Illyria and from fighting those tribalis and uh god we thought you were dead we're so glad

spk_0 you're not and we thoroughly approve of that punishment uh that you handed out to Thebes and

spk_0 Peter Greens said you know Alexander was probably amused by this but he didn't take it seriously he

spk_0 demanded they hand over the most the cipherous anti-macadonian demagogues among them

spk_0 including our friend de masthenes what do you think's gonna happen to these guys

spk_0 it puts Athens in the most agonizing position you can imagine it's a little like imagining the

spk_0 Germans in the second world war after France is defeated and the British decide to give in

spk_0 their beaten and they're gonna be you know completely destroyed and blood will run in the streets

spk_0 of London and everything unless the deal is that Hitler wants Churchill give me Churchill and those

spk_0 friends of Churchill have all been saying bad things about me and we'll call it okay

spk_0 the masthenes is horrified and says it's a little like turning over the sheep dog who's been

spk_0 protecting the flock to the wolves who's been warning you of the dangers of Darth Vader all this time

spk_0 and now it's Darth Vader's son and and I've been right the whole time and sure I've had to trick us

spk_0 into doing the right things sometimes and sure I I brought out that guy in bandages who was

spk_0 limping around saying he saw Alexander dead but it was all to do the right thing to preserve our

spk_0 liberty and I realized it's come to this right now and um he's in a real boat and he's got

spk_0 adversaries up there who are must must have been smiling to themselves at the opportunity to

spk_0 watch him squirm some of the orators get up and say that if de masthenes you know was any kind

spk_0 of real patriot he'd willingly and proudly go to his death right he'd be proud to walk up there

spk_0 and die as a sacrifice to his city and it really puts you on a sort of a horns of a dilemma

spk_0 situation right you don't want to look like a coward you don't want to look like someone who

spk_0 wouldn't die for his city at the same time I mean my goodness I didn't do all this fighting

spk_0 to have the stupid sheep turn me over to the wolf it's an interesting sort of thing to wonder

spk_0 about and their way he gets out of this is in the most Athenian like way someone talks Alexander

spk_0 out of the Athenians of the great diplomats the great talkers and a particular Athenian diplomats

spk_0 some stories have him getting a lot of money from de masthenes to do this is able to go to

spk_0 Alexander and have his demands cut down to just one guy who's only going to be banished and who

spk_0 immediately runs to the king of Persia for sanctuary somehow de masthenes is slippery enough to get

spk_0 out again almost literally by the skin of his teeth but Alexander as we had said he felt outside

spk_0 the walls of thieves has bigger fish to fry he figures he's made his point with the destruction of

spk_0 thieves the sources say that he feels so bad now about what happened to thieves that if he ever got

spk_0 a request from a thieb in the future he would grant it but we should also point out that he will

spk_0 not be during his lifetime that that ban on taking in any thieb in refugees will be lifted

spk_0 but it's a sign of how the Greeks feel about Alexander forever afterwards that they violated that law

spk_0 regularly and as Peter Green said what Alexander did to thieves was one of the worst decisions he

spk_0 ever made and the Greeks hated him forever for it

spk_0 if you think the show you just heard is worth a dollar Dan and Ben would love to have it a bucket

spk_0 show it's all we ask go to Dan Carlin dot com for information on how to donate to the show for hard

spk_0 core history t shirts or other merchandise go to Dan Carlin dot com want to get your hands on all

spk_0 the older hard core history shows just go to Dan Carlin dot com and click on the merchandise tab

spk_0 and catch up on what you've missed the fact that I'm doing this just reminds me it's past due time to

spk_0 get some more liners cut but some social media addresses to share with you the gold standard is the

spk_0 Dan Carlin dot sub stack dot com account because with that one we'll send you an email when we have

spk_0 something important to tell you so that sounds like a good idea sign up for that we now have a blue

spk_0 sky account for those of you who use that my attempts to try to stay with a Balkanized audience

spk_0 wherever you all go so I can reach you is why there's so many more of these accounts Dan Carlin dot

spk_0 bsk y dot social for that one at Dan Carlin hardcore history on Instagram of course at hardcore

spk_0 history on x I'm everywhere man I'm worldwide global was the old line wasn't a Dallas cowboy who

spk_0 said I'm wall to wall and tree top tall well if I am I'm standing on the shoulders of giants and

spk_0 that's you folks and I appreciate all you do for me and my family thank you I hope I hope you

spk_0 have a wonderful upcoming year stay safe

spk_0 there's an old saying that I told you that story to tell you this one

spk_0 because now you know the first show we did was about Alexander the context of his life is

spk_0 upbringing the army that he was going to use the tactics I mean all all the things that set the

spk_0 stage for Alexander and then the story we just finished is about Alexander taking over and his

spk_0 early challenges and let's be honest those early challenges could have finished him very easily

spk_0 a lot of great conquerors in history as I believe we said earlier kind of never make it past

spk_0 their knife fights amongst the rocks in the aliria stage they're a little like the sea turtles

spk_0 that get born on the beach and have to run the gauntlet of predators to make it to the safety of the

spk_0 ocean just to have an opportunity at life a lot of the potential great conquerors lose their lives

spk_0 along the way Alexander 21 22 years old now at this time in the story is just at this moment with

spk_0 grease subdued behind him with the barbarians cowed and all this and the army ready to go and he's

spk_0 drawing men from all these places that he's sort of subdued again he's at the point now where he's

spk_0 facing his destiny and he's one of these guys at least the traditional stories always say who can

spk_0 feel the hand of destiny when it's on him Winston Churchill's another one of those guys he wrote

spk_0 that when he was given the prime minister ship which of course the war had been going on a bit now

spk_0 and Britain's already at a low point and when he becomes prime minister he wrote that he had one

spk_0 of those moments where he could just feel the hand of destiny he wrote quote I felt as if I were

spk_0 walking with destiny and that all my past life had been but a preparation for this hour and this trial

spk_0 end quote one wonders now with all of the roadblocks out of the way and everything he had to

spk_0 handle to get his house in order one wonders if Alexander's feeling the hand of destiny only

spk_0 shoulders as he proceeds to cross his own version of the Rubicon if you will and test himself

spk_0 against the greatest land empire that it ever been the richest the biggest geographical territory

spk_0 and almost mythically old in terms of the way the Greeks could have seen it right but dating back

spk_0 to a tradition that goes to a Syrian Babylonian you know once upon a time all the way to Sumeria I mean

spk_0 this is this is the great Middle Eastern inheritor of all that history from that region and here

spk_0 these upstart people that had to fight to even be considered Greek led by a guy who even though

spk_0 half of him is that people that's had to fight to be considered Greek the other half of him straight

spk_0 up emperor it you know from which country and sorceryville that's the guy that's going to lead

spk_0 this and try to carry out his father's plan which has not come down to us and maybe Alexander

spk_0 didn't even know it I gotta believe he did but maybe he didn't because no one knows what

spk_0 Philip was going to do right do you just fight the Persians and see how it goes take your chances and

spk_0 you know grab what you can or do you have a plan to attack and and take a certain amount of

spk_0 territory what is the limits of this idea right where the natural boundaries that you're trying

spk_0 to establish here well that's where Alexander's psychology once again is going to come into play the

spk_0 who can feel the hand of destiny on his shoulders who was infused both by the environment in which

spk_0 he grew up in but also by the teachings of Aristotle on the subject of Aratay to try to be the best

spk_0 at whatever you try to do and then he's got this Icarus and the sun potential relationship with the

spk_0 idea of ambition and he may already be entertaining the idea that he might be the son of a god it's

spk_0 all a very interesting mixture of stuff that's going to lead us into some of the greatest battles

spk_0 in all history all that and more in part three of Mania for Subjugation

spk_0 I have some sad news to pass along if you hadn't heard it already through one of our other

spk_0 informational channels in September we unexpectedly and tragically lost our artist of 18 some years

spk_0 the fabulous Niklai he was only in his early 40s and so it was a complete shock to us

spk_0 and obviously hit us on so many levels right personal business everything you can think of

spk_0 when we lost the fabulous bill bear it we did an audio program on the hardcore history

spk_0 addendum feed where we showcased his work right the Steve was an audio guy so the work was audio

spk_0 Nick as a visual guy or was a visual guy and so we did a sub stack post highlighting some of his work

spk_0 and how you know some of the more noted covers came to be and whatnot you can go over to sub stack

spk_0 dan carlin dot com for free of course and and check out that story if you like and see

spk_0 you know some of the wonderful things Nick added to our work I we said if I was the

spk_0 hunter rest Thompson character in this relationship Nick was Ralph Stedman

spk_0 when his art became associated with what we did we love him we miss him we're still in shock

spk_0 and we had to pivot quickly and thank goodness we ran into Eric Sayers who was taken on the

spk_0 unenviable task of following a legend and somebody whose work is very closely associated with us

spk_0 I told Eric I compare it to having your favorite comic book

spk_0 losing its artist and having to now have another artist come and pick up the book from where the

spk_0 last artist left off and it's hard to get used to initially but over time you look back and you

spk_0 just refer to the first era as associated with that is the Nicklay era and now a new era begins

spk_0 and you know we think of Nick fondly we miss him and we send our love to his family

Show 72 - Mania for Subjugation II

Interactive Transcript

Topics Covered

Related Episodes

If you're here to raise consciousness on this planet... (Akashic Records Workshop coming up!)

Ep. 309 – Love Binds All Things: What We Can Do to Help the World with Prof. Rajiv S. Joshi

People on TikTok BEGGING for Money is Unhinged (Sad Fishing for Money)

Justin Martin Wrestles with Phil's Advice on Fatherhood

Share Episode