Reverse Ellis Island: American Migrants Who Fought for Mussolini and Built Stalin’s USSR

Interactive Transcript

spk_0 The History of America

spk_0 It's got to hear with another episode of the History of Unplugged Podcast.

spk_0 The story of the immigration to America is one that's well known, but one far less told

spk_0 is an almost equally large migration and re-migration out of America.

spk_0 For example, between 1880 and 1924, up to 50% of Italian immigrants, the United States,

spk_0 returned home.

spk_0 These are mostly young men who came to America to work temporarily, save money and return,

spk_0 which they did.

spk_0 Other migrants left America for political reasons.

spk_0 During the 1930s, tens of thousands of American leftists who supported the socialist revolution

spk_0 of the Soviet Union and were suffering under the Great Depression, left for the USSR.

spk_0 They heated Stalin's call for technically skilled immigrants to come and help build up

spk_0 the global cause of communism.

spk_0 And there were also thousands who heated Adolf Hitler's calls for all ethnic Germans

spk_0 to return to the motherland and join the war effort or those who believed in Mussolini's

spk_0 cause.

spk_0 Now, not everyone who went abroad during this time was a partisan.

spk_0 Some of these individuals include John Robinson, a black American aviator who in 1935 led the

spk_0 Ethiopian Air Force against the Italian invasion.

spk_0 Agnes Smedley joined the Chinese Communist during the Sinno-Japanese War, Helen Keller,

spk_0 who took her education advocacy of the blind to Japan and went on a nationwide tour in

spk_0 1937, as her pound, famous poet who championed Mussolini, an anilolini strong drawn to Stalin's

spk_0 USHASAR.

spk_0 Today's episode, or joined by David Myers, author of Seekers and Partisans, Americans

spk_0 Abroad, and the crisis years, 1935 to 1941.

spk_0 Explore this reverse migration.

spk_0 What Americans were seeking in the interwar years that they didn't think they could get in

spk_0 their homeland and what transnational movement like this means today.

spk_0 Hope you enjoy this discussion with David Myers.

spk_0 And one more thing before we get started with this episode, a quick break for work from

spk_0 our sponsors.

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spk_0 Tell me what was going on with the mood in America during the inner war years, because

spk_0 something is happening that's different than earlier periods.

spk_0 More Americans are going abroad and leaving the nation than any other time, and they're

spk_0 seeking something that they don't think they'll be able to find at home.

spk_0 This takes on many different forms.

spk_0 There's the Bonvovott Ernest Hemiewey, who is partying up in parrises, you can see,

spk_0 in the movable feast.

spk_0 Others are joining ideological movements.

spk_0 They're going to Stalin's USSR, Mussolini's Italy.

spk_0 But brother speaking, what do you think is going on that's causing more Americans to

spk_0 leave than previous eras?

spk_0 I think there are two main things that were taking place in this interwar period that

spk_0 caused so many people to leave the country.

spk_0 There was the economic crisis that we know as the Great Depression.

spk_0 And this left many people unemployed.

spk_0 There was a desperate time economically.

spk_0 And I think it's fair to say that Americans have managed to survive this period of economic

spk_0 collapse.

spk_0 That period seemed just at the endless to them.

spk_0 At the same time, there were places abroad, notably Germany in the 1930s, the Soviet Union

spk_0 at the same period, that seemed to have resolved a number of economic problems.

spk_0 And the obvious issue of unemployment seemed to have been sorted out in Nazi Germany or

spk_0 in Stalin's Soviet Union.

spk_0 And so people in significant numbers, especially to the Soviet Union, were drawn to the place.

spk_0 It was not only an escape from a collapsing social economic situation in the US.

spk_0 It was the Soviet Union, but for some Americans, Germany as well, Italy, perhaps, there was

spk_0 something affirmative to be held, to be obtained elsewhere.

spk_0 And so people left.

spk_0 At the same time, of course, the international crisis was intensifying that the revisionist

spk_0 powers as to say Germany, Japan and Italy were challenging this international status quo.

spk_0 This combination of gathering geopolitical problems and economic problems in the US caused

spk_0 people to pause and to wonder if things might be better elsewhere.

spk_0 And then of course, there was the old standard American complaint, especially in the,

spk_0 so the cultural elite, that the US was intellectually and artistically threadbare.

spk_0 And then deeper, richer life existed in Europe.

spk_0 Somebody like Ezra Pound, for example, drawn to Italy, Gortrud Stein, drawn to France.

spk_0 So I think those two things, the economic problem, the geopolitical problem,

spk_0 plus the old cultural thought that things were better in Europe, was behind much of this feeling.

spk_0 And it's somewhat erroneously mentioned in Ernest Hemiewe, because this is somebody who would go

spk_0 temporarily to a place. These people that you've mentioned sound like they're seeking permanent

spk_0 resettlement. They have ideological reasons that for whatever reason, things have failed

spk_0 them in America and they want to go back abroad. And there's also a wave of people that are

spk_0 returning to a home land. For example, of the millions of Italian immigrants who come to the United

spk_0 States between 1880 and 1924, somewhere between 20 to 50 percent of them returned back to Italy.

spk_0 And that could go for Russia as well with the massive wave of Russians,

spk_0 Russian Jews who came to America during pogroms, maybe some thought that it settled down and they

spk_0 could return back. Maybe that met their expectations in the United States. But it seems like people

spk_0 are seeking a permanent resettlement abroad. Is that accurate? Many people went to broad thinking

spk_0 that they would stay abroad. And again, these people you might term as searchers for promised lands.

spk_0 And in these promised lands, they imagined there were communities centered on justice and safety,

spk_0 deeper meaning. And so they, in many cases, sought to stay abroad. But there were other people

spk_0 who were abroad who were, they belonged to the company of the committed. And they were partisan.

spk_0 They weren't simply searchers. They were partisans. And they wanted to lend their talent and their

spk_0 energy, their imagination to what they saw were lofty causes abroad. Say, communism or

spk_0 you mentioned Italy, thinking that most of the ladies Italy was an instance of the country getting

spk_0 revived. New Rome was being erected and that these people wanted to be part of that adventure.

spk_0 So some people were type of political pilgrim, roughly thinking that they were part of a bigger

spk_0 movement and a bit like a missionaries in a sense that they wanted to help out a noble cause.

spk_0 Other people were simply seeking a better life. So you had seekers and partisans. And of course,

spk_0 very often these elements of pilgrim and righteous crusader blended in the same person. And of course,

spk_0 the proportion of pilgrim versus crusader varied again individual to individual.

spk_0 Right. And you can understand this divide in other places in time from American colonization,

spk_0 where a Puritan colony, somebody joining the Plymouth colony would be doing so for partisan reasons.

spk_0 A Virginia Cavalier who wants to make money with tobacco as a cash crop would be going for that

spk_0 reason. And there's not a sharp divide between the two. And there's no reason it has to be. If you

spk_0 want to be able to succeed ideologically, financially, no reason the two, Twain can't meet.

spk_0 There's a lot of different people that you profile here. And I think it's a good way to understand

spk_0 the vantage point of what they're seeking this out for. One person as good as any start with is

spk_0 John Robinson, who I hadn't heard of before I came across your book. He's a black aviator who goes to

spk_0 Ethiopia, and leads the Air Force against the Italian invasion. What was his background? And

spk_0 how did he learn about opportunities in Ethiopia that made him relocate there?

spk_0 He is a fascinating figure. He was an aviation pioneer. I suppose the most

spk_0 saying this aviation pioneer would be Charles Lindbergh, but in a case, Robinson was from

spk_0 Mississippi. He was from the deep south. He went to Tuskegee for college. He left the south as

spk_0 many black Americans did in the period around World War I and immediately afterwards. He

spk_0 was also immersed in the world of pan-African thought. And when Italy invaded Ethiopia in 1935,

spk_0 a large number, significant number of black Americans were very excited, extremely upset.

spk_0 And they wanted to help Ethiopia in one way or another. Ethiopia, of course, was far away from

spk_0 the United States, hard to get to, very expensive. Also, the State Department had various

spk_0 prohibitions on America's lending themselves to countries at war with another country that

spk_0 the United States enjoyed relations with. In a case, he went to Ethiopia. He was recruited by

spk_0 the Ethiopian government and for highly-slices administration. And she Robinson wound up as head

spk_0 of the Ethiopian Air Force in this lopsided war against Italy. Robinson survived the war,

spk_0 and that was itself a miter miracle. The Italian Air Force simply overwhelmed the Ethiopian

spk_0 Air Force. In any case, after the Ethiopian Italian war ended, he came back to the United States.

spk_0 After World War II, he returned to Ethiopia and made something of a career in Ethiopia. Again,

spk_0 very much involved in aviation in that country. He died in Ethiopia in the early 1950s.

spk_0 And of course, in Ethiopia, not only did he help lead Ethiopian forces against Italy, but he also

spk_0 immersed himself in Ethiopian culture. He had to try to understand a very different culture and

spk_0 history and language from his own United States. Right. And by the time that he dies,

spk_0 he's still involved in Ethiopian aviation. He's trying to help rebuild the Air Force. He's a

spk_0 flight instructor. I wonder if he was ideologically connected in any way with someone else that you

spk_0 talk about in your book, the civil rights activist WB Dubois, who during this time, he's involved

spk_0 in the Pan-African Congress. And in the late 19th, early 20th centuries, there were a number of,

spk_0 I guess you could call them pan-ethnic movements where people thought that there could be a

spk_0 global link of people of a common ancestry that wasn't defined by nationality or empire.

spk_0 So pan-slavism was a movement where Russia tried to support nationalist movements of Bulgaria,

spk_0 Serbia, there's pan-Turkish movements where Turkish nationalists are supporting their

spk_0 long-sundered ethnic hensmen in Central Asia, in the Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, pan-Arabic movements

spk_0 where nationalist movements of people of Arabic background could even transcend religion.

spk_0 So Christian Arabs would claim there's a common cause with Muslim Arabs and Jewish Arabs.

spk_0 WD Dubois seems to have a similar type of intellectual approach with pan-African Congresses.

spk_0 So what was he doing? And he told me about his ideological movement there.

spk_0 Unfortunately, as far as I can figure out, Robinson and Dubois really had no communication

spk_0 between each other at all. Dubois, of course, was prominent, so rice activist, just as you point out.

spk_0 Robinson's world was the world of slaves and aviation, and that sort of technology.

spk_0 Nevertheless, in his own way, he assimilated, so unsolved consciously, ideas that you might

spk_0 associate with Dubois' pan-African feeling. But Robinson did not read Dubois. Dubois' vocabulary

spk_0 was not Robinson's vocabulary, but certainly in fighting for an African nation, Ethiopia,

spk_0 Robinson wanted to advance the cause of civil rights in the United States, and the larger

spk_0 cause of African feeling against white supremacy globally. So there fascinated points of overlap

spk_0 between Dubois and Robinson, but they were not in touch with each other. I don't think that Robinson

spk_0 ever read any Dubois' work, and there's nothing, at least in the archive, suggesting that Dubois was

spk_0 aware of Robinson's life in Chicago, or later on in Ethiopia. Of course, Dubois was terribly

spk_0 interested in Ethiopia, and was a strong proponent of some sort of assistance to Ethiopia that

spk_0 different countries might have supported. The United States, of course, abstained.

spk_0 Right. That was a way that in the Western world, if one were to speak of a black person in the

spk_0 most complementary terms, they would harken back to Ethiopian civilization. One of the British colonial

spk_0 governors of Virginia, the final one before the American Revolution, formed a regiment of

spk_0 fleet slaves and called them the Ethiopian regiments to link African culture to an ancient civilization

spk_0 that had interactions with ancient Greece. So there was an idea of that that was a bridge between

spk_0 ancient Western culture and African culture too. This is a folkroom around which Dubois

spk_0 bases his ideas when he's at a Pan-African Congress, one in Paris, London, Brussels. What is he

spk_0 hoped to get going globally? Well, of course, what Dubois was looking forward to was a kind of

spk_0 Pan-Asian-African solidarity that in that combination would be able to overthrow the European

spk_0 empires in Africa and in Asia, both South Asia and East Asia, and that those parts of the world

spk_0 would then be ruled by the people who lived there and not by distant foreign powers.

spk_0 And this idea also of Pan-African-Asian solidarity fitted into Dubois' own ongoing struggle

spk_0 for civil rights in the United States. So again, Robinson is all part of that world,

spk_0 part of that struggle. But Robinson, of course, is a product of Tuskegee Institute.

spk_0 Dubois famously had reservations about Tuskegee, sort of the industrial colleges that Tuskegee

spk_0 exemplified. So again, you have Dubois, the intellectual, the scholar, sort of the revolutionary

spk_0 humanitarian versus Robinson, who was much more concerned with sort of practical problems,

spk_0 sort of the Tuskegee approached to the world and aviation. But again, these guys are

spk_0 compatible, but they're not deeply in touch with each other. Does that make sense? Yeah.

spk_0 The push to go abroad for ideological reasons, somebody else whose famous,

spk_0 leased literary circles is Ezra Pound. He was a poet who was in London in Paris in the 1910s and

spk_0 1920s. He promoted T.S. Eliot and James Joyce. It was part of that mullible fees I talked about

spk_0 earlier. Then he settles in Italy in 1924, where he's at for much of the rest of the interwar period,

spk_0 openly promotes and champions Mussolini, which at the time isn't as strange as it sounds because

spk_0 in Europe, in many places, Hitler and Mussolini were much preferable to communist movements taking

spk_0 place. There were some members of FDR's cabinet who were impressed by Mussolini's accomplishments,

spk_0 or at least what they understood to be accomplishments. Now that changes as the

spk_0 possibility and specter of war become much more real in the late 1930s. And then the

spk_0 interested fascism wanes, but not for Bounted, it only grows. Tell me about his involvement with

spk_0 these movements in Italy in the interwar period.

spk_0 Hey everyone, Scott here. We're going to take a short break for a word from our sponsors.

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spk_0 this guide holds the perfect book for every reader, including yourself.

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spk_0 tuck a booker to you into your own nightstand, and join us in celebrating the wonder of reading

spk_0 this Christmas. Explore the Crosswalk Holiday Gift Guide and find something special for everyone

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spk_0 Yes, Palm is just a nightmare. You're quite right to remind us all that various people

spk_0 in the US, in the UK and elsewhere, at least for a while, were sort of intrigued by Mussolini.

spk_0 Churchill, for example, and even FDR, early on had a soft spot for Mussolini.

spk_0 Churchill, Roosevelt and many others, of course, came to Mussolini quite differently,

spk_0 in part because of his invasion of ECL in 1935, not as profound as the

spk_0 Pound, of course, became a great apologist for Mussolini and for Italian fascism.

spk_0 And for Pound, Mussolini was really kind of a species of Savior who promised not only Italy's

spk_0 redemption, but civilization's redemption. And as you probably know, he powned wound up later on,

spk_0 beaming broadcasts on Radio Rome to US and British audiences. He lobbied congressmen in Washington

spk_0 to stay out of World War II, and he otherwise idolized the Ducey. All of this, of course,

spk_0 subtly the Pound's legacy. They cost him more than 10 years of confinement in a psychiatric

spk_0 hospital after World War II. All the same, the point is, and to your question, for Pound,

spk_0 Mussolini was the wave of the future. He was an artist in Pound's understanding. An artist

spk_0 worked in the medium of power. In any case, Italy's congenital, political, and economic instability,

spk_0 thanks to Mussolini's wisdom and statecraft, Italy would overcome its moral,

spk_0 laxity, and economic problems, and so on and so forth. This feeling was not necessarily

spk_0 required. Mussolini more or less ignored Pound, but Pound idolized the Ducey.

spk_0 Another partisan who gets involved in a movement is Agnes Spedley. She joins the Chinese

spk_0 Communist during the Sino-Japanese War and begins in China as a reporter looking at the Chinese

spk_0 Civil War between Nationalists led by Chen Kai-Shak and Mao representing the Communists.

spk_0 She begins as a reporter, but how do things change at time? She sympathizes with the

spk_0 Communist in the Civil War and then during the Sino-Japanese War, what is her involvement?

spk_0 She was even before she got to China, sympathetic to revolutionary causes. Again,

spk_0 before she got to China, she was very much involved in Indian resistance to the British Empire.

spk_0 For a number of years, the line herself with British independence figures.

spk_0 She herself was from a very modest background in the United States. She saw herself as a victim

spk_0 of the capital system, born and poverty. All of her feeling was with the left. In any case,

spk_0 here things are a bit hazy, but she went to China and very quickly involved herself in

spk_0 so revolutionary doings, the Chief Revolutionary Party versus Communist Party.

spk_0 She became involved with some espionage on behalf of the Chinese Communist Party against

spk_0 the Guomin Dong, the Governor of Chen Kai-Shak. Once the Sino-Japanese War erupted, as you know,

spk_0 there was an alliance, however fragile, but an alliance between the Guomin Dong and the Chinese

spk_0 Communist Party in the war against Japan. She, agnistently, was part of that anti-Japanese war

spk_0 that the Communist as well as the nationalist wage. All of her deep sympathies with radical Chinese

spk_0 socialists and she became an apologist for them and wanted desperately to lend her best self,

spk_0 for best writing to Chinese Communism. That feeling persisted well after World War II,

spk_0 and she wanted very much to return to People's Republic of China. Unfortunately, that didn't happen.

spk_0 She died in 1950, near that the Korean War started. She had wanted to write a biography of one of the

spk_0 leading Chinese Communist military figures, and that book was published posthumously. I'm not sure

spk_0 exactly when 1956, 1957, some years after Agnes Medley died. She's a small group of people who

spk_0 go to China. Now, China isn't intentionally seeking out foreigners like herself to come over.

spk_0 In contrast to the Soviet Union, where in the beginning, it's openly make a call for people to come

spk_0 to the Soviet Union, talking about their revolution, also seeking skilled labor, people who can help

spk_0 industrialize, become educated, and seeking engineers, technicians, which is an attractive

spk_0 possibility in the 30s with such massive unemployment. It'd be like foreigners today going to,

spk_0 let's say, teach English in the Arabian Peninsula, where you could go to the university and make a lot

spk_0 of money. And there's somewhere like up to 100,000 foreigners that go to the USSR in the 20s and 30s.

spk_0 And you profile some of the people like Anna Louise Strong. Tell me about her and others who go to

spk_0 Stalin's USSR. What are they seeking? Well, again, like Agnes Medley, Anna Louise Strong was a person

spk_0 of the left well before she got to the Soviet Union. She was opposed vehemently opposed to US

spk_0 intervention in World War I. All of her sympathies were with organized labor in the United States.

spk_0 So she was in a sense primed well before she got to Russia to find out what was going on there

spk_0 and again to lend support. She got to the Soviet Union in the early 20s and stayed there for

spk_0 the better part of two decades. She was a true believer when the country went to collectivization

spk_0 to rapid industrialization, the purge files of the 1930s. Her arguments were always in line

spk_0 with the Stalinist viewpoint. And Stalinism worked for her brilliantly vindicated in the war

spk_0 against Germany when the Soviet Union was so important, really decisive in the defeat of Germany

spk_0 in World War II. Anna Louise Strong of course had her blind spots, collectivization, rapid

spk_0 industrialization, the purge of traders and everything else, so-called traders. These were horrendous

spk_0 episodes in Russian history, but Anna Louise Strong never deviated from the official Soviet line.

spk_0 Again, she was a true believer and as a person of faith, she stuck to our principles and

spk_0 necessarily overlooked some unsettling contrary evidence.

spk_0 Yeah, I'm curious what happens as a years go by to those who do go to the Soviet Union.

spk_0 From the perspective of stateside, there's a lot of interest in communism in the 1930s.

spk_0 The American Communist Party reaches its highest level of popularity. Now, after the war and

spk_0 the beginning of the Cold War, that of course, wanes public opinion shifts strongly against communism.

spk_0 There's intense federal scrutiny and the breaking point for communism in the West for many

spk_0 people is after the 1956 Soviet invasion of Hungary. That's where you see many intellectuals.

spk_0 If they're still leftists, they would call themselves democratic socialist instead of communist.

spk_0 Books like The God that failed in 1949 is by former communists that talk about their disillusionment

spk_0 with communism, see what happens in Stalin's USSR, but that doesn't break the faith of everybody.

spk_0 So, as the years and decades go by, what happens to Americans who go to the Soviet Union,

spk_0 those who remain true believers versus those who are disillusioned?

spk_0 Let me add specifically about Anna Louise Sprawn, and then maybe get to a more general point.

spk_0 So, yeah, she stuck with Stalin and Stalin is through the end of World War II,

spk_0 but she did serving against her better judgment or guess her heart, really.

spk_0 She became grander than a disillusioned from her, but had some qualms about Stalin and what was

spk_0 taking place in the Soviet Union. She converted really to Chinese communism, and as you

spk_0 may know, she eventually left the Soviet Union, or rather was expelled from the Soviet Union,

spk_0 had a very rough time in the United States, but then in the late 1950s, she went to People's Republic

spk_0 of China, which she felt upheld the true communist spirit and contrast with sort of doll and dogmatic

spk_0 Soviet Union. China was revolutionary and was vital, it was significant, and so she within her

spk_0 communist faith went from one denomination, you might say, the Soviet, to the Chinese version.

spk_0 The fate of Americans who went to the Soviet Union is really pretty much a mixed bag.

spk_0 A number of people became quite disillusioned, left their Soviet Union at a half.

spk_0 Some Americans actually disappeared into the gulag, Anna Louise Sprawn's husband,

spk_0 Russian citizen, died very mysterious, circumstances. She, herself, as I just mentioned,

spk_0 briefly was expelled from the Soviet Union. She got served, caught up in the post-World War II and

spk_0 died Western, hysteria, the grips of Soviet Union. Anyway, she left or was forced to leave under a

spk_0 cloud, and then back in the States, of course, she was reviled by American authorities for being

spk_0 a leftist, extreme leftist and person of suspicion during the Karthi period, and American

spk_0 communist didn't care for her either, because she had, after all, been expelled from the Soviet

spk_0 Union, and in this Soviet context was persona non-grata. Her saga, in some ways, tracks with broader

spk_0 patterns, I think, of Americans in the Soviet Union, some of whom came to a very bad end in the gulag,

spk_0 others who left with all of their dreams shattered, but they were not necessarily welcome in the

spk_0 United States, because they had let themselves early on to Marxist London's cause, and therefore

spk_0 a Nethma. As for the people who did recand, they were welcomed, and in some ways,

spk_0 celebrated. You mentioned the God that failed. That's a very good example.

spk_0 Now, we've talked a lot about partisans returning back to seekers, those who are going overseas,

spk_0 some permanently, others temporarily, but trained to foster some kind of international connection.

spk_0 One is Helen Keller, who goes to Japan in 1937 at the invitation of a Japanese professor,

spk_0 who's blind, and he's seeking advocacy for better education and opportunities for the blind and

spk_0 deaf, and there's no bigger celebrity than Helen Keller, so he figures that if anyone can bring

spk_0 awareness to it she can, and she accepts the invitation, this is four years before Pearl Harbor

spk_0 tensions are constantly ratching up between Japan and the United States, but it's possible to do this

spk_0 in the 30s, where it wouldn't be years later. What does Helen Keller do while she's in Japan, and

spk_0 how is she part of this consolation of Americans abroad at this time that you mentioned?

spk_0 She is a magnificent figure. She went to Japan as part of her effort, worldwide effort,

spk_0 to raise sympathetic awareness for people with disabilities, especially in her case,

spk_0 people who were blind and or deaf as was she. In Japan in 1937, she was greatly summabrated,

spk_0 not only by the disability community, but by broader Japan, and was seen as something of,

spk_0 and maybe this is overstated, but I'll say it anyway, she was perceived as a kind of secular saint,

spk_0 and Japan was hugely important to her, so understanding of the world, and she was, of course,

spk_0 upset to raise it mildly when the war and the Pacific erupted, and her feeling,

spk_0 even though she was a patriotic American, nevertheless she had a great feeling for people in Japan

spk_0 who were among other things somewhat heavy bombing. Shortly after World War II, she returned to Japan,

spk_0 and during her, you might call her pilgrimage to Japan, she went to Hiroshima, and she went to Nagasaki,

spk_0 and therefore she continued to campaign for, again, sympathetic awareness for people with

spk_0 disabilities, but she also became, as a result of her visit to Hiroshima in Nagasaki,

spk_0 she became a prominent voice in the anti-atomic weapons crusade, and for the remainder of her life,

spk_0 she gave voice to atomic disarmament.

spk_0 Scott here, one more break for a word from our sponsors.

spk_0 This Christmas, give more than just a gift, give encouragement, inspiration, and joy.

spk_0 In the Crosswalk Holiday Gift Guide, you'll discover a curated collection of meaningful books and

spk_0 devotionals that celebrate faith, family, and the real reason for the season. This Christmas,

spk_0 we invite you to share comfort, quiet, or excitement with each person on your gift list.

spk_0 From beautifully illustrated Bibles and devotionals to novels and picture books,

spk_0 this guide holds the perfect book for every reader, including yourself.

spk_0 So stuff those stories into stockings, rock collections, prepare,

spk_0 tuck a book or two into your own nightstand, and join us in celebrating the wonder of reading

spk_0 this Christmas. Explore the Crosswalk Holiday Gift Guide and find something special for everyone

spk_0 on your list. Visit crosswalk.com or slash gift guide today.

spk_0 It seems like this time period where there's disillusionment in the United States with the

spk_0 depression, people seeking new opportunities are broad. Public opinion globally probably doesn't

spk_0 shift faster than any time than it did with the beginning of World War II. From there's so

spk_0 many examples in the United States, support for an isolationist foreign policy changes on a dime

spk_0 when millions of renter recruiting offices to fight an international war,

spk_0 wars unequivocally declared against Japan then when declared by Germany against the United States

spk_0 and United States returns the favor. So the reasons that people could be seeking new

spk_0 opportunities overseas, it says the same for some people, but in many other ways this chapter

spk_0 in history comes to a close. So do you tell me about the ending of this period and how much

spk_0 things change with the beginning of World War II? The most spectacular result of World War II

spk_0 is I think fair to say that the United States was the preeminent power in the world, economic

spk_0 power, political power, military diplomatic power. It was really a moment. It was all of the other

spk_0 important countries, Great Britain, France, Germany, Japan. They no longer occupied such an

spk_0 important international position. The Soviet Union of course was the one competitor for the

spk_0 United States during this period, but the Soviet Union of course had been terribly savage during the

spk_0 war, enormous human casualties, extensive damage to cities and industry, infrastructure, one kind

spk_0 or another. The United States alone enjoyed this prestige and influence. So from the standpoint of

spk_0 would be Americans or would be programs and seekers and partisans, there wasn't all that much

spk_0 to go to elsewhere. The rest of the world was there in Europe and Asia trying to put things

spk_0 back together again. The United States economically and all these other ways was without equal

spk_0 that in stark contrast, Scott, with the period of the 1930s, the depression and all of that.

spk_0 While these types of people who go abroad seeking different opportunities, whether seekers,

spk_0 whether partisans, that never stopped taking on different forms. So you can find all sorts of

spk_0 examples. There's a city in Mexico, San Miguel de Alende, where Americans have been going since the

spk_0 1930s, it ramped up in the 1950s. And today their second third generation, I have a note you'll

spk_0 call it American origin Mexicans in Venezuela. I remember reading an article in the New York Times

spk_0 where Americans went to Hugo Chavez's Venezuela, believing in his promise of Latin American socialism

spk_0 during the Trump years, some of gone to Canada. On a conservative side, their Americans have moved

spk_0 to Hungary with President Victor Warbonne believing in his vision of, I guess you could call it a

spk_0 Christian nationalism or a view of national identity rooted in Christian beliefs. Some Americans

spk_0 have gone to Russia during Vladimir Putin's period. So this vision hasn't died, it's continued

spk_0 onward. So with your analysis of the inner war period, what does that tell us about similar types

spk_0 of aspirations today? I think a lot depends on what Brooklyn America is you're talking about.

spk_0 Right now, late August 2025, this is a moment when many Americans fear the rise of a zealous,

spk_0 sometimes racist form of populism when the bonds of affection, Abraham Lincoln's language,

spk_0 when the bonds of affection between citizens have demonstrably strayed an inversion of a

spk_0 sortaneism as a version Washington. All of which raises for some Americans an unsettling question,

spk_0 name it should a reasonable person stay or leave the United States. And again, this question

spk_0 is not a new one far from it, but I think now has assumed a kind of an urgency that is quite

spk_0 unexpected or would have been unexpected just a couple of years ago. So you have again,

spk_0 people who are alarmed by the current trend in this country, the current political trend in

spk_0 this country on the left. But also as you remind us, there are people who have been drawn to or

spk_0 missing factuated by the government in Hungary, or even to a degree, I suppose in Moscow.

spk_0 This is something as we can see, it's a tendency that transcends time periods and looking at

spk_0 a movement that's almost a century old can help understand what's happening today.

spk_0 There's many other stories that you chronicle in your book and for listeners who want to

spk_0 check it out. The name is Seekers and Partisans Americans Abroad in the crisis years 1935 to 1941.

spk_0 David, thank you for joining us.

spk_0 Thanks a great deal. Very interesting and very good questions. So until next time, thank you.

spk_0 That's all for today's episode. If you like to see show notes with sources, maps, links,

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spk_0 and other great history shows as well. If you like to support this show, the two easiest ways to do so

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Reverse Ellis Island: American Migrants Who Fought for Mussolini and Built Stalin’s USSR

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