Culture
Restoring the Voice of Salmon
In this episode of Conservation Connection, we explore the profound cultural significance of salmon for the indigenous tribes of the Pacific Northwest, particularly the Nespelem and Nima Pu peoples. C...
Restoring the Voice of Salmon
Culture •
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Interactive Transcript
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For many indigenous people of the Pacific Northwest, salmon are far more than a source of food.
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They are sacred connection to the land, the water, and the generations that came before.
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For tribes like the Nesbius or the Nima Pu people, salmon are central to their way of life,
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their stories, and their ceremonies.
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Each stage of the Salmon's journey from its birth and freshwater streams to its time and ocean,
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and its return home to spawn, holds deep lessons about resilience, reciprocity,
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and the interconnectedness of all living things.
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The life cycle of salmon is a powerful symbol of renewal.
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As they fight their way upstream to spawn, they give everything they have,
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leaving their bodies behind to nourish the rivers and the forests.
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A sacrifice that the Nesbius don't take lightly.
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For thousands of years, they have honored the Salmon, managing rivers and fisheries in harmony
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with nature to ensure that the Salmon thrive, not just for their own communities,
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but for the ecosystems that they sustain.
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Today, salmon face unprecedented challenges.
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Dams block their ancient migration routes.
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Rising temperatures threaten the cool waters that they depend on.
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Habitat destruction and overfishing push them closer to the edge.
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For indigenous nations, the fight to save the Salmon is not just about conservation.
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It's about protecting their culture, their sovereignty,
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and the balance of life itself.
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This week, we are honored to speak with Shannon Wheeler,
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chairman of the Nesbus Tribal Executive Committee.
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He shares with us the tribe's efforts to restore salmon populations,
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the deep cultural significance of salmon,
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and the lessons we can all learn from their enduring relationship with these remarkable fish.
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Welcome back to Conservation Connection, the show where we do exactly what it sounds like.
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Each week, we introduce you to people working to protect the planet.
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I'm Sarah Catherine, and I'm Chance.
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And this is the show.
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So I'm going to launch us with the question, what is the coldest water you have ever been in?
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Oh, obviously, I can't remember forever and ever, but when we went to Wild and Scenic in
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what Nevada City, California, that's what it was.
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We went to a river.
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I'm not going to remember the name, but we were like, oh, let's take our picture in the water,
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and we're with the lady who was hosting us.
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They do host families for the people working and attending Wild and Scenic.
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And she was like, okay, yeah, go stand in the water.
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I'll take your picture.
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And she took like a million pictures and she was so kind and so great.
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But they progressively got worse because I thought my feet were going to fall off.
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It was so cold.
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Yeah, really pretty though.
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But you hate cold water.
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But you hiked to like a rock in the middle of this river.
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I mean, I only got up to like my thighs.
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Definitely.
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I feel like it was at least your knees.
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Maybe past that, but it was cold.
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But it was a beautiful like west coast clear like ice melt fed river.
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Oh, yeah.
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So pretty.
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It was amazing.
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Worth it.
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Mm-hmm.
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I don't like cold water.
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That is true.
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I will deal with cold water if it's for something that's worth it.
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Mm-hmm.
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Yeah, same.
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Was that worse for you than the time you jumped into the lake from your parents' boat?
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Oh, well, that was bad because it was like my full body was submerged.
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Chance tricked me because I did no such thing.
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And don't you slander me on this podcast.
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He'd, I don't think he really intended to, but as I've already stated,
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Chance hates cold water.
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And he was like, I'm going to jump in the lake.
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And he jumped in and had zero problem.
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And I was like, hmm, I thought the water was cold.
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I guess I'll jump in.
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And so I jumped in.
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And I'm pretty sure if I wasn't wearing a life jacket,
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I probably would have drowned.
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I was like in shock.
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I would have found you, but yeah, you were definitely going through the
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the mammalian cold water response.
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But it's like you're gasping and you tense up.
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Yeah, I jumped in and I came back out of the water just like gasping for air.
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It was awful.
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But that that water probably wasn't as cold though.
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It was just very shocking because you plunge to yourself into it.
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Right. Cold plunge.
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You know, it's all the rage.
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Yeah, it's good for you.
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What was your coldest experience?
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Probably our eight working at the aquarium.
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Oh, yeah.
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Really, the water wasn't that cold when we were working at Florida Keys Aquarium encounters.
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But I was in it for so long that that is definitely the most chilled I've felt,
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especially when we were like, I was reconditioning the inside of the glass.
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And so I was just using a sander underwater for hours at a time to try and get
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to polish the inside of the glass.
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Yeah, it's like 90 degrees outside in the Florida Keys and chances walking around
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like covered in a robe and like a neoprene jacket, drinking hot coffee.
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Two full wetsuits, a neoprene jacket, boots, and hot coffee.
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And I was still like shivering and blue in the face.
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Yeah.
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Worth it.
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That makes sense.
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Yeah.
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Yep.
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I brought that up because we were talking about a really cool cold water species
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in this episode.
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Who do we get to talk with this week, Sarah Catherne?
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This week we had the opportunity to talk to Shannon Wheeler, who is the chairman of the
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Nez Perse tribal executive committee in Idaho.
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And to be clear, he is not a cold water species.
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He is not.
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But he is a really cool guy.
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And they do a lot of really interesting work to protect the historic salmon population
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on the snake river.
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And generally in the Columbia River basin.
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Yeah, this was a really cool story for us to be able to share and to learn from Shannon Wheeler
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because we don't always have opportunities to talk to tribal leaders.
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And I think it's really important to share their stories and their experiences.
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There's obviously so much we can learn.
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But it's also really important for us as, you know, a science communication and media
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company to be able to share and amplify these stories when and where we can.
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Yeah, I completely agree.
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And it's hard a little bit for me because I'm so personally disconnected from indigenous culture.
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It's just not something that I have much exposure to, but I want to do it right.
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You know, like I don't want to come across as ignorant or as unlearned or whatever.
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And so I think like when I listen to the interview, I feel like I'm a little clammy in it
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because I don't want to say the wrong thing.
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And I certainly don't want to say the wrong thing to the elected leader of the Nesperce people,
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the Nima Poo.
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It was definitely something that I kind of had to fight through personally.
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That discomfort of like feeling uneducated about it.
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But I left that conversation feeling so much more connected to the modern experience of the Nesperce tribe.
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Right. And I think that most people in a position where they can educate people,
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especially when they're a leader in whatever it is.
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They're a field or that area or their community are happy to educate people.
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But it is hard as interviewers who typically go in and we have a pretty decent background
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on the topics we're talking about.
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We have some good knowledge in it.
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Tribal lands and tribal ways of life we're less familiar with.
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So it's like, okay, we're kind of starting from scratch and we don't want to sound ignorant.
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But I think that the people we're talking to don't feel offended at our questions.
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You know, they're happy to teach us and our listeners.
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Yeah, there's a lot of value to just coming in and being forthright.
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I mean, like, I don't know this stuff, but I want to learn from you.
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Right.
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And Shannon is just such a cool guy that it was a really fun conversation.
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Now, before we get into the interview today, a couple of things I want to say first off,
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this is the last episode of season 11.
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So we are going on break for a couple of weeks.
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We'll be back with a whole new season.
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We're going to kind of shake things up again a little bit.
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I'm really excited about it.
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It's going to let us push things a little bit further when it comes to storytelling
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while still being able to deliver a lot of the really cool information
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that we're able to get out of our interviews.
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So very excited for the next season.
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Yeah.
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So if you want to help us as we prepare that next season,
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want to give us some input, your thoughts.
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Definitely text us on the hotline.
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And we'll be sending out kind of a pre-recording of some things to ask a few of our listeners,
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hey, what do you think of this?
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Do you like this?
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What would you like to hear differently?
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So if you'd like to have more input into what you're hearing on the podcast,
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text us on the hotline.
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706 505 05 8 2.
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Speaking of the hotline.
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We're really excited.
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We're doing holiday cards this year.
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We're going to send them out just after new years.
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So if you all would like to receive a holiday card from the conservation
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connection team, which is me and Sarah Catherine.
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And our dogs.
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And our dogs.
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Make sure you reach out to us on the hotline before December 15th.
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That way we can get you on the list and get one sent to your way.
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As we've been saying in this whole season,
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thank you again to the Sun Valley Forum for bringing us out this year to record all of these
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amazing episodes.
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We really hope that you've been enjoying the stories we've been able to tell this year.
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And if you get the chance to come to the forum or participate online when they're doing
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their live streams, I cannot recommend it enough.
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It is such a cool forum with really forward thinking people in all sorts of fields related to
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the environment.
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I think they do a really great job at intentionally curating their speakers and their guests
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and the sessions that they hold.
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I think there's a lot of thought that goes into it.
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And they do a really wonderful job.
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Yeah, Amy and the whole team just crushes it every year.
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That's why we've been back three years and a while.
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Yeah, we love them and we think you will too.
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Somebody else that we haven't gotten the chance to thank yet on the show is our new home studio.
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So we are working with collaboration station, which is a co-working space here in Columbus,
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Georgia. They are setting up a podcasting studio in their co-work space.
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And as a nonprofit, they are graciously donating the use of that space to us as long as we
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help them get it set up.
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But it is a beautiful space.
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And I'm very excited because I think it's going to allow us to dip our toes into the world of
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video podcasting for next season.
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So if you guys have been listening for a long time and you wonder what the heck we look like
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and you haven't found us on Instagram yet, season 11, you should be able to see us
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in beautiful, technical color.
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It's kind of scary.
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I don't listen to the radio as much anymore.
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But when we were younger, I would hear the same personalities on the radio every day.
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And then eventually like one day you see a picture or something of the radio host and you're like,
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wow, that is not what I expected.
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So I kind of a little bit hope that everyone's found us like on social media or somewhere.
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So they know what we look like.
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They can connect to the voice to the face and all of that.
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But yeah, if you haven't and you see us in video podcast, hopefully you're not like, oh no.
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I don't think anybody's going to look at us and be like, oh no.
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Now it feels a little like love is blind though.
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It's like you only heard our voice.
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I know.
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But probably not.
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I kind of assume everyone knows what we look like anyway.
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Well, especially because we're on Instagram all the time.
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So we've definitely put our faces out there.
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Yeah.
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With all of that, let's get to the show and we hope that you enjoyed this last episode of
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season 11.
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In just a couple of words, what brings you here to the form?
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What message did you bring to share?
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You know, our message is always the message of action that needs to happen and status quo
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that is currently holding the salmon species back.
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And so I was basically here to talk about restoration of salmon and what that's going to take
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going into the future.
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So what are some of the major threats to salmon in the Columbia Basin?
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Well, right now, I think, you know, it's a cumulative factor that, you know, overfishing was a part of it.
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Construction of dams now is the majority of the issues that are happening around salmon
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and their ability to migrate out to the ocean.
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Some of these dams are equipped with fish ladders and they work coming back.
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But the biggest problem is that we're sending out, you know, as a tribe, over 10 million fish.
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And generally, we get back about, you know, 1% of that.
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And so that's a problem for us.
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And do you happen to know what that number was historically?
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Because I know that a lot of the times salmon come in, they spawn, those salmon go out,
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and then you typically don't get the same number back anyway.
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But I'm sure you've seen a significant decrease.
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Do you happen to know what the number was previously?
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Yeah, the historical number is estimated between 17 and 20 million returning to the
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mouth of the Columbia River.
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And now we're seeing more like 100,000?
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Yes.
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And that is a massive decrease.
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That's really the messaging that we've brought to not only to the administration,
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but to the general public as well.
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And we look to continue to amplify that message of the current crisis that salmon are in.
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You know, along with the climate crisis that's only elevating, you know, the need to do something now.
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Yeah.
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So what are some of the steps that y'all have taken to help the salmon?
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I know, like you said, you're bringing it to people to be like,
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hey, this is an issue.
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It needs to be fixed.
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And then later, of course, we'll dive in to kind of the dam removal and the Columbia basin.
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But specifically for the salmon, is there anything that y'all have tried to tackle
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already that you've seen be successful?
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I think a lot of the restoration work that we do in the streams is beneficial and helpful.
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You know, they have great spawning areas.
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And you know, within the Frank Church,
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bitterwood wilderness area.
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So that's Christine Habitat.
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But we do a lot of monitoring.
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We as a tribe, we also work with the Columbia River Treaty tribes,
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warm springs, the Yomotilla and Yaccomination in a consortium that's called
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Critfict Columbia River Intertriple Fish Commission.
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And so we have a lot of scientists there.
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Each of the tribes have their own scientists.
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And you know, we employ over 200 people within our fisheries department that are out there
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doing work and monitoring water temperatures, sediment that's going into the system,
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snowpack, and all the different things that are associated to the health of the salmon.
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I feel like sometimes we don't realize how much does go into the health of an ecosystem.
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Right? Like you said, we're monitoring the river and the sediment and how much like snow melt
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is going into it. It's more than just being like, oh, well, there's something in the way of the
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salmon or, oh, the water is too hot. Like, it is really complex to figure out these issues.
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Yeah, that is, and the change of the system itself,
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you know, salmon used to swim backwards to the ocean because of the current that pushed them
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down into the ocean. So a journey that would take, say, from the border of Washington on a snake
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river down into the Columbia and out into Astoria and to the Estuary and into the ocean, then,
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you know, that was two to four days. Now that's three weeks, three to four weeks of travel time.
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They're not swimming backwards. They're actually having to swim forward through these warm pools
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and predation that's out there, whether it's avian predation or, you know, it could be
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northern pike minnow or just, you know, a lot of things have changed within this river system.
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With the sediment buildup that creates these kill zones or these channels that are
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limited in space and cover for the juvenile smolts that are migrating out. And then, of course,
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the dams themselves that they have to go through either over the spillway or they go through the
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turbines or they go through the juvenile fish pasture areas. And of course, you know, the results are,
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if they're going through the turbines, first, they're sustaining injuries or they're being killed at
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that point. And so 50% of the fish that migrate out die.
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Already, just by trying to get out.
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Yeah, that's not counting for the cumulative factor of injury that happens. And I would say
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gymnast, for instance, you know, if they're practicing their whole life to vault. And three
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weeks before they go to the Olympics, say, spray their knee, you know, or they expect it to go
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to the Olympics and perform at the highest level. They're not going to be able to do that. So,
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a fish that's actually swimming for their life and swimming for food and having to swim miles for food
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or against currents or with the current. But there's predators that are chasing them. And if they're
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injured, their chances of survival is less because they're not 100% when they're foraging in the ocean
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for food. So that cumulative factor that they've been injured or damaged in some way has impacts.
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And so when we start seeing these low numbers of smoke to adult ratio of return of salmon,
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then those numbers are true.
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For a little context, salmon start their lives in a pea-sized egg. And when they hatch,
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they're only an inch or so in length. Depending on their species and the conditions of their
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stream, they spend up to three years foraging and growing until they're about 10 inches long.
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Then they begin their journey to the sea, looking for hiding places and foraging grounds while they
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dodge predators. So I know that your tribe has done a lot of work with the science of understanding
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what is happening to the salmon, but you've also done a lot of work trying to be heard by the
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legislative bodies of the United States and helping them understand what needs to happen to
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protect the salmon. Can you talk a little bit about the Nimipu's connection in that way?
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Yeah, I think there's some of the things that we're doing like the salmon orca project
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that is to provide all the facts and information out there that we have. So legislators can formulate
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an opinion for themselves on solutions to the issues surrounding salmon. And so as we continue to
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work with those legislators on the hill, whether you know they're in the house or in the senate,
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that will take an understanding of truly what needs to be done. And I think, of course, Senator
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Murray from Washington and Governor Inslee of Washington put together a study what it would take to
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breach the four lower snake river dams and recover salmon. And they had stated in that study that
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several of the services that are provided by the dams themselves, whether it's irrigation,
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irrigation, transportation, or energy would need to be in place prior to breaching of the
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four lower snake river dam. Now breaching isn't totally tearing out the dams, it's just removing
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the earth and portion of these dams. And the dams themselves would remain in place
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and the infrastructure that's there. And so that's what we set out to do. They give us a road map of
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what we needed to do. And so we started working with the administration under the Columbia
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Basin Restoration Initiative to send that to the administration. They come back with commitments,
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you know, working on both sides of the aisle, trying to inform the legislation as much as possible
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over the information, most up-to-date information that we have. How can we move forward? You know,
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because we look at this relationship that has a sovereign and as per's have with the United
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States is a relationship under treaty. And under treaty we have our article three, which gives us
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the right to hunt fish and gather and travel at all of our usual and accustomed places and travel
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in common with the citizens of the United States. So I take an oath to the Constitution,
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elected officials by author affirmation, hold that same responsibility to the rule of law,
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judges are bound by treaty. And so as the president of the United States, under the rule of law,
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to the Constitution, which guides this republic. I'm taking a step back a little because you
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mentioned something that I didn't completely understand. So I want to learn a little more about it.
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You said that you're not removing the whole damn. You're removing the earth and portion. And could
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you just explain kind of what that looks like? Because whenever I've heard of like damn removal,
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I just kind of assume like, okay, they're going to completely remove this damn. There's going to be
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no more damn. And yeah, I'm just trying to understand a little bit about what that looks like.
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Well, you can imagine these are run of the river dams. They're large dams, snake rivers, a large
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river, a large tributary of the Columbia River. And so these dams go across a good span of ground.
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And concrete is at least half of the structure. The other half of the structure is
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rocks, boulders, and gravel. And so just that portion of it would be removed. So if you can imagine
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just the river running its natural course again. And going around a dam, it would just be like
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a bend in the river then. So an outcropping of the land itself in the river would just go around it.
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So you're not totally deconstructing a dam. All you're doing is removing the earth and portions
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back to where they grabbed the rock from the hillside anyway and pulled it down in there.
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And so that would allow the water to flow freely in the fish to migrate past these dams unharmed.
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So the benefit of that is that it costs less because you're not having to tear down all of this
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concrete in order to restore the natural flow of the river, right? Yeah, and then also the
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infrastructure there can still be utilized in different manners, whether it's renewable energies,
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solar wind, these systems are put in place still that we could put a solar farm and battery
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storage that would be able to utilize the system that's in place. Yeah, I think people think dams
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are a lot simpler than they are nowadays because it's not just like, hey, here's a bunch of rocks
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stopping up the river. It's really complex pieces of infrastructure that in many places are
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very critical for providing energy. I mean, we live in Columbus, Georgia, which is on the Chattahoochi
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river, which historically is the furthest up the Chattahoochi you can get because at that point,
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you start running into rapids and rocks. And it's been dammed, was dammed in 1800s for the use of
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textile mills and stuff like that. And we've recently removed a lot of those dams, but we've
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kept the ones that are hydro generation. They create a lot of carbon neutral energy. So dams are
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kind of this really sticky point of they are a way to generate clean carbon neutral energy, but they
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can have massive impacts on the wildlife that rely on the natural course of the river for their
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life history. There's some questions of carbon neutral too though surrounding dams. Something
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more is more information there that the work that needs to go into those dams, the emissions that
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are happening from the dam themselves, methane that being part of that because of the slack water
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and the warming waters. And so there are emissions that and they are of all of the energy sources,
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the most carbon free are neutral source of energy, but they're not environmental free. In this case,
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like a coal plant, it burns coal or natural gas plant, burns gas, these dams here in Pacific
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Northwest burn fish. And so they are actually harming the environment in that way.
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Yeah, it is. I mean, everything comes with the cost. There's an equation that happens in every
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environmental situation. I wanted to just get a little clarity when you said they're generating
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methane from the warming water and the slack water. Is that because like detritus falls to the bottom
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and decomposes and that is releasing methane out or is it something within the mechanical structure
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of the dam itself? Yeah, I'm really not the scientist here. I would have to have lean on my staff if
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they were here to help answer that question. And so and these studies may not even have all come
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from our staff, but other entities that have been doing studies on the emissions that are actually
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around dams. Okay, I was blown away by his assertion that hydroelectric dams aren't carbon neutral.
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So I did some digging and here's what I found out. Dam's create areas of still deep water.
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This creates conditions for organic material like dead plants and animals to break down without oxygen,
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resulting in the creation of methane gas that otherwise wouldn't exist. This gas bubbles up to the
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surface and escapes to the atmosphere, but it also gets dissolved into the water itself,
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like carbonation in a soda. When water passes through the turbines or spillways, it gets agitated.
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Just like when you shake up a soda, any of the methane that was dissolved in the water
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gets released when passing through the dam. So even though dams aren't directly burning fossil
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fuels to create energy, they do make conditions in the waterway that cause an increase in the
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production in a mission of methane gas. What are some of the challenges that you've seen with the
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Columbia Basin Restoration Initiative? I think business models for energy is the largest
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bond-of-the-powered administration operates on an older business model that is outdated.
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The unwillingness to change their model is difficult for us to navigate through because
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now you're talking about utilities and I think the way that people do business is really difficult
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to change them when what we're doing is fine for us. It works great for us, but the impacts that
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we're having on you, you're still able to go fish, right? Well, we can fish, but there has to be
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fish here because that was promised to us. I think if we look at it from the bottom line,
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from whether it's an energy company or a business that's utilizing the energy that's being
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generated by the hydroelectric system, it may inflate their costs a little bit, but that really
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is a cost of doing business because your business is killing fish. If your business touches water,
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it touches fish. I think one of the best ways we've seen to change business practices is to
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provide consumer pressure going directly to the consumers and giving them awareness of the
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issues so that they can put direct pressure on the businesses that are causing the problem.
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Have you been involved in any public outreach efforts, stuff like that, to try to work to change
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the people who are consuming the energy that is being created by hurting fish?
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Yes, that's the work under the Salmon Orca project that we've been doing for several years now.
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And that's really where the rubber meets the road for public outreach and being able to
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get this information, all the information that we have out to the general public in the best
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manner that we know how we've also done the documentary, the covenant of the Salmon people
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that speaks to the issues surrounding the lower snake river dams and the tribal nation, the
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do what's necessary to bring back the Salmon.
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Is there a place that someone listening could find that documentary?
spk_0
Yeah, currently it's streaming on PBS nationwide.
spk_0
In the month of November, we've had several showings of it in all several states and
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they're still carrying it. They're still streaming it.
spk_0
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
spk_0
Perfect.
spk_0
Yeah.
spk_0
Going back to the dam removal, is there any pushback on how the removal of a dam or changing the river
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will change the flow rate and therefore change how the river flows downstream?
spk_0
Because if I'm thinking about it in the perspective of like we live in Columbus, Georgia where a
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chance said we have tons of big dams. And of course those weren't there many, many years ago.
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So if we were to take those out and return the river to its natural state, I imagine that
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the levels would rise, but now we have all these towns that are built right down to the river.
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And I've had people ask me this question before and I haven't had a good answer of
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how does the removal of dams affect the town's downstream, essentially?
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Well, under a flood risk management, that would be something that you'd have to consider.
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But these dams aren't for flood risk management. Therefore, they're run of the river dams.
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And so as the river runs, these dams run. And so there's really no risk of flooding happening
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because of the dams that are above these four lower snake river dams. There's dwarfshack dam that
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holds back the north fork of the clear water. And there's the hill's canyon dam.
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And that complex that holds back the upper snake system for flood risk management.
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And of course irrigation and power generation too. But those are the two that would control
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the majority of the water that flows into the snake. There's also the salmon river,
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which doesn't have any dams on it currently. And so the run of the river dam being breached would
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have no impacts on towns like Portland that are downriver. More of that would be based on
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the collection and accumulation of each of the systems and the Columbia River itself, which is
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held back by the Canadian dams and Lake Roosevelt and Chief Joseph Dam, which are the flood control
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dams in the upper Columbia system. So a run of the river dam is less about creating reservoir
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upstream and more about just collecting energy from the water as it passes through and providing
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transport across the river. Yes. Okay, cool. That's good to know. Learning a lot about dams today. Yeah.
spk_0
What are some of the next steps for the NEsperce tribe? Well, we're at a point now where the state of
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Washington has stepped up and in the biennial budget of Governor Inslee has created these task force
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to look at the analysis of costs associated to irrigation, which is one of the services provided.
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They have until 2025 to determine what those costs are and what the changes that would have to happen.
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The Governor also put together a task force on transportation, which they're studying of,
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we don't want to have any captive shippers, agriculture community that sells grain and
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ships grain by barge. Right. You have to have a mode of transportation that ensures that they get
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their product to market. And then of course the energy portion of this Pacific Northwest National
spk_0
Laboratory is doing the analysis on what it has to do to upgrade the grid and to bring on renewables,
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how much renewables are going to have to bring on in order to replace the 812 megawatts of power that
spk_0
these four dams collectively produce on average per year. And so these different studies that
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they're coming together. And of course, Governor Inslee has done that in the state of Washington
spk_0
based on his report that him and Senator Murray have done. The administration has looked at this
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model of understanding that these services need to be addressed. And that's what the Columbia
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Basin Restoration Initiative was set out to do. And the United States commitments under the MOU
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with the six sovereigns, Nespers, Umatilla, Warm Springs, Yakima and the state of Washington and
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Oregon that have come together to solve the problems of the Pacific Northwest.
spk_0
I got chills from that. I was really cool to listen to. So it sounds like this initiative is
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pretty likely moving forward, which I think is great because I feel like a lot of the times when
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you're dealing with government or issues, especially around nature, sometimes it's like,
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oh yeah, maybe we'll get to it. Maybe we'll make this work in the future, but it'll be years from
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now. But you said they have until 2025, which is really soon, to kind of figure out the first step of
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this and the energy creation that needs to happen, right? Yeah. So I think timelines are
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critical to meet because we're looking at two generations of salmon. Their generations are
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one to four years. They generally come back as three, four-year-olds. Sometimes they come back as
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five-year-olds. And so the generations of those coming back of what we've been seeing as far as
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numbers returning into areas that have met the quasi-extinction threshold, which is a NOAA term
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speaks to 50 or fewer native spawning fish returning to a tributary for four consecutive years
spk_0
when they're under 50 for four consecutive years, that's quasi-extinction. And so we're seeing
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those numbers in 44% of the tributaries on the lower snake river system. And so that's why I think
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we look at these timelines under fish timelines. So that's why the action needs to happen. I mean,
spk_0
irrigation and transportation and energy. Those needs, of course, are something that we can meet,
spk_0
but the fish may need a river. Yeah. There's something really interesting about the idea of
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human timelines versus fish timelines, like government timelines versus fish timelines. And
spk_0
it's easy to get wrapped up in like we have to make sure we understand it fully this way,
spk_0
or that we're recovering this, or we're doing that. And all the while while we're figuring that out,
spk_0
there's fish that are struggling every year and it's getting harder for them. So I'd love to hear
spk_0
about these accelerated timelines because that's what the fish need. Yeah, that's what we've been
spk_0
seeing in understanding. And our obligation, of course, is an ancient obligation because in our
spk_0
creation stories of who we are as people, the salmon was the first to stand up of all the creatures
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to give themselves to us for nutrition and for our survival. And so that's where our relationship
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began. And so it was told that the salmon would lose their voice once they once he gave himself to
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the two-legged, then we would have to become that voice. And we would think that it was for prayer
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or for their return. We didn't think we'd have to be their voice for survival.
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I think that's something that a lot of American culture loses sight of is this intrinsic
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connection, this cultural connection to the land and to the creatures on it. And it's a very powerful
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motivator to make sure that you're caring for it and protecting it so that not only do you get to
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enjoy it, but so do your children and their children on through time. I just think it's a really
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neat perspective that you're bringing to this conversation. Well, you know, we've divorced
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ourselves from nature and we continue to live in that relationship that's an unhealthy relationship.
spk_0
And I just want to say one thing that's as a kid, I was struck by it was an interview with Bruce Lee.
spk_0
And I want to utilize this one because it gives me a better understanding of what we as humans
spk_0
are doing to the world. So Bruce Lee was asked in the interview, what would you like to be like?
spk_0
And he said, I would like to be like water because water is nimble. If you pour it in the glass,
spk_0
it becomes the shape of the glass. And he just said different things like that that struck me as a
spk_0
kid. And you know, for us as Ness Perseus, named me Poo, we believe in the sweat lodge. And so we'll
spk_0
go into a sweat lodge. I don't know if you guys are familiar with the sweat lodge. It's a stick
spk_0
frame that's covered with we used to cover them with mud, but now we cover them with fabrics.
spk_0
And we have a rock pit in there and we cook these rocks to red hot rocks. And then we put the
spk_0
rocks in the pit inside the sweat lodge. And on the ground is fur bows. And so it has an ever green
spk_0
smell in there. And and then you place some garments over that, you know, burlap. And you also
spk_0
have a root that is in a bag that's dumped and are dipped in the water. And then you squeeze that
spk_0
bag over the hot rocks. And then the hot rocks become steam and come onto your body and open your
spk_0
pores and and how it cleans you. Not only physically, but spiritually and mentally it helps you.
spk_0
And so we say prayers in there. And so we're thinking and talking in there. We're
spk_0
talking about coos the water itself. And the Bruce Lee conversation had come up there. And we were
spk_0
like, well, it's kind of profound, you know, waters how resilient it is and and what it does. And
spk_0
so if we think about water itself, you know, water tends to try to become whatever is around it.
spk_0
And so if it's cold, it freezes and becomes hard or if it's hot, it will, you know, boil or turn
spk_0
the steam and, you know, eventually end up in the clouds. And if it's on a flowing in a stream,
spk_0
it flows how the stream bed is. So there's ripples in the water. And so it becomes that. And so it
spk_0
tries to become whatever is around it. And and if you think about, you know, bath water and you
spk_0
put your toe in that bath water to test it on your hand and you gently put it in there, it allows
spk_0
you to place your finger in that in that bath water. But if you slap water, it resists you with
spk_0
the same pressure that you apply to it. And so we when we say divorcing ourselves of nature
spk_0
are putting different things into the water pretty much, you know, whether they're from agriculture or
spk_0
from wastewater or wherever the pollution is coming from, it's poisoning the water. And so what
spk_0
is the water going to do to you? The water will poison you back because it's becoming whatever is
spk_0
around it. And that's the nature of water. And so from that simple conversation of Bruce Lee and
spk_0
we take all these other things into consideration and us divorcing ourselves from nature by polluting
spk_0
the system, then that's what's going to happen to us eventually because our bodies made up of
spk_0
how much water the planets made surfaces made up of how much water. And so, you know, that's
spk_0
something just that we as we pray and think about the things that are affecting us, that is
spk_0
something that's kind of profound to think about if you let your mind go into that area.
spk_0
Yeah, absolutely. That was really profound and a really excellent description of
spk_0
how what we give to nature, nature gives back to us for the positive and for the negative as well.
spk_0
With the completion of the Columbia Basin Restoration Initiative, are you hopeful that that will
spk_0
kind of solve all of the problems for these salmon and like great, our numbers should go back up?
spk_0
Or do you think that, okay, that's step one, here's step two, three, four on getting these
spk_0
populations back up? Well, it's the start to solve the human problem around, you know, business or
spk_0
basically business and the way that we do business. And so if we're able to change that,
spk_0
then that's a step in the right direction because it's really what's holding back Congress,
spk_0
because Congress eventually will have to decide whether the system is breached or not. And so I think
spk_0
that's, you know, getting all of these things completed and what else is there to do? I mean,
spk_0
we're a movie buff, I like the Wizard of Oz and we were sent to get to which is Brum, and we come
spk_0
back with the which is Brum now, please get us to where we need to be. So if Congress could take a
spk_0
look at that, then say you guys have done everything that we've asked and now we have to deliver
spk_0
based on our commitment to our author affirmation that we've taken to the rule of law,
spk_0
according to treaties to ESA law, to reestablish these species from going extinct. And so these things
spk_0
are all, we're just trying to line those out so we can get this path to breaching and be able to
spk_0
restore these rivers so that these are an adjume species that have been here long before human
spk_0
beings can continue to exist. Yeah, one of the things that I really like to try and tie into the show
spk_0
is experiential descriptions of what it's like to be in the nature that you love. So could you tell
spk_0
me a little bit about what it feels like, what you smell, what you hear when you're standing on
spk_0
the tributaries of the snake river? Well, you know, just for example, being in the different areas,
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you know, sometimes you're looking at western large, sometimes you're looking at ponderosa pine
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or Douglas fir, depending on where you're at, you know, the terrain can be very steep.
spk_0
Generally is very steep. When you're standing in the water, you're standing in granite gravel
spk_0
beds a lot of time. You're standing in 48 degree water, 49 degree water, which is really cold,
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which is the fish love, which you forget that it's that cold because of your interaction with
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the land itself and, you know, understanding that a species is about to give themselves to you.
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So we've prayed for that time in the sweat lodge or wherever you pray. I do that to sweat lodge for
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when I meet them because there's happiness in it, but there's also a bit of sadness that
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you're taking something that has worked its way down as a as a fry as a as a sult to the ocean
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and survived everything to come back and give themselves to you before they spawn.
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You know, there's a sadness to that too, but you know, when you have them, you respect them in a
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manner that you care for that species. You handle it like it's it is your own. It's it could be your
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own child, but you handle it in a manner that is respectful and you definitely take care of
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what you're taking. And so the fresh smell of a fresh salmon directly out of this cold water system
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that you know is sitting in a gravel bed and they're beautiful fish when you look at them. They're
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really beautiful, you know, just depends on the time of day. A lot of times we fish right at dusk
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and through the night or right when the sun's coming up. And so there's different sounds, you know,
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some of the birds are waking up and and the flow the flow of the water depending on what system
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that you're in. Some of the areas are smooth water where we fish. Some of them are white water
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rapids where we fish. And but just being in that water and then being able to feel the strength of
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a salmon is truly remarkable. And when you take them, you process them if you filet them or whatever
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it is, eventually they end up on your table with your family. It's really difficult to put a price on
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that whole process. Yeah. And it is priceless. It is priceless. And that's what they bring to you.
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That's what they give to you. They give you a priceless moments, several priceless moments that
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they battled their whole life in the elements against predators and to give them self to you so
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that you can enjoy sustenance of their work throughout their life to give to you. And that's what they
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promised us. And so we have to respect that and respect it in a manner that we would anything
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else because we don't place ourselves above our foods or equal to our foods. We are nature. And
spk_0
we have that understanding of exactly who we are. Well, I think that's a beautiful place to end.
spk_0
And thank you for sharing that story with us and thank you so much for being on the show today.
spk_0
Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate the conservation connection here and the opportunity to
spk_0
share our story with you. And it's always good to do that. So thank you very much.
spk_0
I feel like I went into this episode thinking I was going to learn a lot about salmon. And really,
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I learned a lot about dams. Yeah, that's right. A little bit of both. I did learn lots of really
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interesting things about salmon and the struggles that they go through especially in modern river
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systems. But the whole like we're only taking out part of the dam. We're returning it to part of
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natural flow state. They produce methane emissions. Right. I had a lot of questions in this episode
spk_0
about dams. I love it when we have an interview. And I'm like, cool. I'm going to go Google a bunch
spk_0
of stuff right now. Yeah. We had the great opportunity to talk to some of Shane Wheeler scientists
spk_0
that he works alongside and learn a little bit more. So this was definitely like the episode that
spk_0
just keeps giving and educating. It's giving educating. Yeah, it's given education. There you go.
spk_0
That's how you use the meme. What was the coolest thing that you learned about salmon this week?
spk_0
So I don't know if it's cool because it's like kind of sad. But the most interesting thing I learned
spk_0
was that they used to swim backwards to the ocean. And now because of the different flow rates,
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they have to swim forwards to the ocean. Yeah, they were basically just flushed out to the sea.
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And now they're having to like actively work their way down the river system.
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I was very interested in hydroelectricity not being as carbon neutral or as environmentally friendly
spk_0
as it's often portrayed. It is absolutely a renewable energy source. And I think it is part of the
spk_0
energy solution moving forward. But there is a lot of undiscussed issues with hydro power that I
spk_0
didn't really understand. Yeah. Well, we've talked about it in actually a few episodes this season
spk_0
and last season with our bats and windmills episode. And this season with our carbon credits episode
spk_0
and natural solutions versus engineered solutions. And a lot of these things, these new solutions
spk_0
have some kind of drawback to them. We don't really have anything that's perfect. It doesn't
spk_0
cause any harm to anything. Oh my gosh, this is just the most wonderful thing. It's a little bit
spk_0
better than our other options, basically. Right. Yeah. And I don't want people to walk away from
spk_0
this episode thinking that hydro power is bad full stop. As a matter of fact, Jay, who's the scientist
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with the Nesperce people that we were talking with was like, it really depends on the specific
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reservoir and the specific location in which river basin we're talking about because
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everyone is different. At the end of the day, it's probably better overall that we're not
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trying to blind eye to the effects that it does have and mitigate them when we can.
spk_0
It feels sad to be leaving season 11. This was such a fun season. I know. It was a really great
spk_0
season, but I'm super excited for what next season is going to bring and the changes we're going
spk_0
to make. We've got a lot of work to do. So very happy to have a little bit of a break. Yeah, it's
spk_0
funny because we're quote going on break. And what that is is we're going to spend the next like
spk_0
eight to 10 weeks figuring out how to do video podcasts. Yeah, figuring out how to do a video
spk_0
podcast, figuring out the next stories to tell what we want to share in creating those producing,
spk_0
those editing those. There's a lot that goes into not only the podcast, but also running a non-profit.
spk_0
So lots to do before we sign off. If you guys are interested in a free sticker pack, you can text
spk_0
the hotline 706 505 05 8 2. Shoot me a text and let me know how you found the show. Let me know
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that you've told a friend about the show or that you've left us a rating or a review. And I'm
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happy to send you a free sticker pack that's got some really cool logos of us and yeah, they're cool.
spk_0
They're not logos of us. Wait, we should totally totally do a logo that is just like my face
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on Ron's body. No, oh, no. It's actually hotline if you want that. No one wants that.
spk_0
All right, y'all, thanks for listening this season. We really appreciate all of your support
spk_0
and can't wait for what the future holds. Happy holidays!