Podcasters Don't Care About Live-Streaming

Interactive Transcript

spk_0 Podcasts are roundtable, round 162.

spk_0 Is it a podcast or is this just live?

spk_0 So we've talked about live before here, but I am curious.

spk_0 There have been a couple new platforms I've come on the scene probably since we've done

spk_0 that.

spk_0 So we will get into that.

spk_0 And I think one of our stories has something to do with that as well.

spk_0 But do you even care about live streaming as a podcaster?

spk_0 Do you do it?

spk_0 We are coincidentally doing a podcast right now that we are live streaming.

spk_0 Right.

spk_0 So let's get into that.

spk_0 Let's talk to or let's meet the roundtable co-host Dave Jackson.

spk_0 Welcome back.

spk_0 Ray, thanks for having me.

spk_0 Yeah, this is very meta.

spk_0 It's a live stream about a podcast where we're going to talk about is live streaming

spk_0 a podcast.

spk_0 We could forward to it.

spk_0 Well, you know, we don't we don't do topics anymore.

spk_0 So we're not going to talk much about it.

spk_0 Although whatever that first story is tends to go the first half.

spk_0 So if you're the lucky story who goes first, then you get a lot of play.

spk_0 So we'll see.

spk_0

spk_0 But yes, Dave Jackson School of Podcasting.com.

spk_0 Awesome.

spk_0 And brand new roundtableer, John, welcome to your first roundtable.

spk_0 Thanks, Ray.

spk_0 Thanks, Dave.

spk_0 Thanks for having me.

spk_0 John Chigee, I sort of run the engineering network.

spk_0 It's a network, but it isn't.

spk_0 It mainly just a place to put on my shows because I have too many podcasts like so many

spk_0 podcasts.

spk_0 You listen to Ray.

spk_0 Yes, anyhow.

spk_0 But yes, the most known for causality and pragmatic podcasts.

spk_0 So one, but yes, thanks for having me on, guys.

spk_0 Been looking forward to this for quite a while.

spk_0 So thank you.

spk_0 Awesome.

spk_0 And I think that John probably reached out to remind me that he was on the list, which

spk_0 is very helpful.

spk_0 So podcasters roundtable.com slash guest.

spk_0 If you want to be on a future roundtable, and that's where we pull from to get roundtable,

spk_0 there's most of the time.

spk_0 Sometimes I have to go out and recruit depending on what we are talking about.

spk_0 So we want to have as much expertise as possible.

spk_0 But you do not have to be an expert to be on the roundtable.

spk_0 The whole key to this show is that it is different perspectives from different podcasters

spk_0 at different stages in their podcast journey, right?

spk_0 So not every podcaster most do not have a show about podcasting, but every podcaster

spk_0 knows a lot about their experience podcasting.

spk_0 That's what we want this audience to learn from.

spk_0 So join us and podcasters roundtable.com slash live is where we're doing this.

spk_0 And of course, we're on YouTube.

spk_0 So if you want to see, if you're just listening to this, which most of you will be audio

spk_0 podcasts, they won.

spk_0 They beat out the video podcast YouTube killed the video podcast star.

spk_0 And we are on YouTube.

spk_0 So we we we give in.

spk_0 Check us out on YouTube.

spk_0 Also podcasters roundtable.

spk_0 So I am having a frosty beverage made of beer, which I invite everyone to do, but it

spk_0 is BIOB bringing on beverage, but it is like 930 in the morning wherever John is.

spk_0 So John, where are you coming from?

spk_0 I'm in Brisbane, Australia.

spk_0 So on the east coast of Australia.

spk_0 So yeah, it's a beautiful Saturday morning.

spk_0 Really literally is a lovely morning out there, but so you'll be sticking to water for

spk_0 this one, but that's totally fine too.

spk_0 Yes, that's why beverage bring.

spk_0 We are keeping the international thing going, Dave.

spk_0 We have very successful rate of international contributors here, which I really enjoy.

spk_0 And it's it's rarely ever intentional.

spk_0 It makes it sound so much smarter.

spk_0 That's the thing I'm going to do on it.

spk_0 The accents they help.

spk_0 That's it.

spk_0 All right.

spk_0 Well, you know what?

spk_0 Stories.

spk_0 I think John is the winner with two on here.

spk_0 We're thin on stories.

spk_0 Is it possible that we have the shortest roundtable ever?

spk_0 Don't count on it.

spk_0 But John, John, John, we have the chance to have a short roundtable, but who wants that?

spk_0 We're going to be gone for weeks.

spk_0 Let's just drag this out.

spk_0 Maybe I'll break it up into part four.

spk_0 You guys like doing podcasts as parts?

spk_0 So here before we get to the first story, I'm already jumping off the tracks podcast as

spk_0 parts, right?

spk_0 You've seen that.

spk_0 I swear I've done it actually in the podcast or studio had like an epically long conversation.

spk_0 And early on you think, oh, maybe it's a good idea to break this into part one and part

spk_0 two.

spk_0 I don't know.

spk_0 Maybe it is.

spk_0 There's arguments for it against.

spk_0 John, have you ever done that with the show?

spk_0 The next episode?

spk_0 I actually, I have.

spk_0 And there's the episode I had was episode 82 of Pragmatic.

spk_0 It was about Tesla and I had Caleb Elston on from the Tesla show.

spk_0 And we talked for four hours straight.

spk_0 And out of, I think, respect for my listeners, I figured that's just way too long to stay

spk_0 on that topic.

spk_0 So I had to split it into two episodes.

spk_0 And it was interesting because I got a bit of a 50-50 split of people coming back saying,

spk_0 why'd you cut that off?

spk_0 I could have listened to that all in one go and so on.

spk_0 But I don't know as many people also thank me.

spk_0 So I'm not entirely sure what the conclusion is on that is I think you can do it.

spk_0 I think it was the right call.

spk_0 But I got mixed messages from my audience.

spk_0 So I'm not entirely sold, which was the better approach in the end.

spk_0 But yeah, I still stand by what I did, though.

spk_0 I think you can plant the flag.

spk_0 I stand by it.

spk_0 But Dave, what do you think about this?

spk_0 Because I think it's up in the air.

spk_0 It's a tough one.

spk_0 I think in four hours, that's definitely something you're going to think about.

spk_0 What I hate is when somebody has a show that's normally, I don't know, a half hour and

spk_0 they talk to somebody for an hour and then they break it into three, twenty minute segments

spk_0 because in addition to the twenty-minute segments, you then have them reintroducing the

spk_0 guest again and then doing their little snippet at the end where they're going to do their

spk_0 Jerry Springer what we learned today.

spk_0 And I was like, if you would cut out all those introductions and what I learned today that

spk_0 really wouldn't have been that long of an interview.

spk_0 That's where I kind of go.

spk_0 I'm going to vote, give it to me on one shot.

spk_0 There's always the Dan Carlin hardcore history, but let's face it, Dan is a freak and creates

spk_0 incredible content.

spk_0 So when he's doing six hour shows, it's, you know, but I'm trying to think that the only

spk_0 time I hate it is if a segment can't stand on its own.

spk_0 So if they're like, they get to the crescendo and they're like, hey, if you want to hear

spk_0 out of the sense, tune in again next week kids, you know, and you're like, ah, you know,

spk_0 so and then of course, there's always the Valerie Geller.

spk_0 There is no such thing as too long, only too boring line, but I don't know, four hours.

spk_0 I think it depends on your audience.

spk_0 I always go back to Judy graph did a show called Farman wife, her first hour, her first

spk_0 episode was three hours.

spk_0 And she gave it to me to kind of give it the one zone.

spk_0 I go, Judy, this is three hours long.

spk_0 And she goes, yeah, I know my audience is saying it's too short.

spk_0 And I was like, what?

spk_0 And she goes, yeah, she goes, my audience is farmers.

spk_0 And when you see those guys out there and they're, you know, going down these big giant

spk_0 rows and they're planting seed or whatever they're doing, she's like, a lot of those

spk_0 tractors drive themselves.

spk_0 That's why the rows are so straight.

spk_0 She goes, the guy that's actually driving is just sitting there to do the turns.

spk_0 She's like, so they're bored out of there.

spk_0 Oh, they were sitting there listening to the podcast.

spk_0 They're like, hey, that was cool.

spk_0 You got another one.

spk_0 So which I guess means the proverbial podcast answer, which is of course, it depends.

spk_0 So I think if you're thinking about it, because I would say my most successful episode,

spk_0 and I mean, I don't, it's not science.

spk_0 I'm guessing on the round table, I'm not the round table.

spk_0 I don't know about that.

spk_0 We'd ever, did we, I think, did we do a part one part two?

spk_0 I don't think so.

spk_0 We might have.

spk_0 We did that presentation that we did at whatever conference we were at with me, you and Daniel.

spk_0 I feel like there was a part, there was a part two, I think.

spk_0 Anyways, on the podcast or studio was like some epically long conversation with an audio

spk_0 engineer about compression.

spk_0 And people loved it.

spk_0 And then I know personally as I'm listening, if the conversation's good and you pull the

spk_0 plug, oh man, especially if, if you probably should serve your most hardcore listeners,

spk_0 right?

spk_0 You're regular subscribers because think about what happens when you do, they're in,

spk_0 they're probably in, right?

spk_0 John, as you said, like some people said, I could have kept listening to that, right?

spk_0 And those are the people who are going to keep coming back.

spk_0 And so when you do that, those people listen when the podcast comes out.

spk_0 So when you say part two is coming up, they really do have to wait like a full week for

spk_0 part two, as opposed to a lot of people will catch it in the archive.

spk_0 And it doesn't matter.

spk_0 It can go right to part two.

spk_0 It's tough.

spk_0 And so I think probably having communicating or communication with your audience is probably

spk_0 best on this.

spk_0 And I'm sure some shows do this intentionally.

spk_0 I mean, honestly, there's, there's like a, when I talk to my podcasters at work, what

spk_0 I try to get them to do is shorten the episode as opposed to like before we go in, right?

spk_0 And have a plan and, and don't, because you could do four hours or even like the same

spk_0 two hours.

spk_0 And at the end of an hour, you're on topic three, but three and topic three and four were,

spk_0 were amazing content.

spk_0 A lot of times probably didn't get heard.

spk_0 Obviously, you can see this in your retention stats, right?

spk_0 At least we have those now.

spk_0 That wasn't always a thing, right?

spk_0 Dave, we didn't always know like when people were dropping off unless they told us, now

spk_0 you can see it.

spk_0 I mean, if you're losing the majority of your audience at 45 minutes or something, you

spk_0 kind of found out where you should be.

spk_0 And maybe that tells you if you're doing to do, you know, an hour and 45 minutes, you

spk_0 should split into, right?

spk_0 And then check those metrics.

spk_0 I think that's probably pretty good.

spk_0 And look, we're podcasters.

spk_0 We're making of those.

spk_0 We go our, all our audiences are different.

spk_0 So iterate, like figure it out and then change, I would say.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 I was interviewed on a show this week and they, they had me booked from 730 to 930 and I

spk_0 emailed them, I go, is this really like two hours?

spk_0 And they're like, yeah.

spk_0 And I was like, okay, I'll try to be entertaining for two hours.

spk_0 That's a long time to like, that's another one.

spk_0 That's another one.

spk_0 So consider those, okay, let's throw those into it.

spk_0 You've got, if you're going to do interviews, right?

spk_0 You should probably not, especially ahead of time, that person should know what they're

spk_0 signing up for really early.

spk_0 Maybe in the first request, hey, I'd like to do an interview with you.

spk_0 It's two hours long.

spk_0 So you could at least say, yeah, I can't really do two hours, right?

spk_0 And it's just not going to work.

spk_0 I can do an hour or whatever, right?

spk_0 And then there's today's topic, live streaming.

spk_0 We are live.

spk_0 And this is the only time you hear me say, because I absolutely despise when I hear a podcasters

spk_0 say, well, we're going to need to wrap it up.

spk_0 We're about out of time.

spk_0 What time?

spk_0 What time are you out of?

spk_0 Like, you're a podcaster.

spk_0 I agree.

spk_0 Right?

spk_0 But in this scenario, you will hear me say that because I've asked an audience to be here.

spk_0 The expectation is that we're going to run an hour and someone puts that into their

spk_0 schedule.

spk_0 And if I'm over an hour, they still want to listen, but they've already planned to do something

spk_0 else.

spk_0 So in that case, when it's live and it's kind of like we might talk more about what's

spk_0 the difference between live and a podcast.

spk_0 I think there's a different consideration there for the audience.

spk_0 John, what do you think about all of these or any other factors go into deciding?

spk_0 Well, um, it, okay.

spk_0 So just holding on the interview one for a second, I'll just want to circle back quickly

spk_0 that all this conversation jogged my memory on the Tesla episode.

spk_0 I actually decided to release a merged, well, as originally recorded version for my

spk_0 patrons on Patreon.

spk_0 So I actually did do that.

spk_0 It's like a DVD bonus.

spk_0 Like he threw it back to the DVD bonus content.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 Exactly.

spk_0 So as you were saying, it's like for the committed fans, the people that are really supporting

spk_0 the show, then I don't want to make them wait.

spk_0 So in the end, I actually did that.

spk_0 This is a few years ago.

spk_0 So I just blanked on that temporarily.

spk_0 So there's that.

spk_0 So I agree with that one for sure.

spk_0 On the interviewing side, I like like what you were talking about, Dave, you had like

spk_0 a two hour block.

spk_0 I try and do the same thing when I'm going to interview because I say interviewing.

spk_0 I have people on pragmatic.

spk_0 It's not really an interview.

spk_0 It's just a conversation with someone who's more of an expert on the topic.

spk_0 And we just like compare notes and so on.

spk_0 But I'd always set that expectation up front.

spk_0 And I always asked for what's the end stop.

spk_0 The whole four hour thing was just a freak of currents.

spk_0 We just kept talking and talking.

spk_0 It was great conversation.

spk_0 So I didn't want to stop and lucky for me, Nordic Caleb.

spk_0 So you know, it was great.

spk_0 Font memories of just recording that episode was fun.

spk_0 And you shouldn't you shouldn't stop because as a listener, I can tell when that

spk_0 happens, right?

spk_0 Again, with the time limits, or I can tell even more so when an interviewer doesn't pay

spk_0 attention to the question, I'm like, how are you not following up with that amazing

spk_0 thing? They just said they're going to next question on their list.

spk_0 Like let the interview go where it's going to go.

spk_0 But you can tell when the interview is pulling the plug and you're like, it was so

spk_0 good. What are you doing?

spk_0 You you just had the best interview with this person.

spk_0 And you just let it go.

spk_0 Anyways, John, you're going to go.

spk_0 Oh, not just simply.

spk_0 I didn't have too much else to add on that.

spk_0 One is just that I always look at this way.

spk_0 When I've got someone else's time, I have to respect their time limits.

spk_0 And I say to them, as soon as we dollar has anything changed, you have a hard

spk_0 stop. You know, let's let's talk about, you know, that start up

spk_0 front. And if I have to reprioritize the content and if there's questions or

spk_0 points we want to cover, then that's what I've got to do in real time.

spk_0 And that's just that's just the way it goes.

spk_0 And it's painful when you got to pull the plug because they have to go.

spk_0 Right. I'll always allow extra time.

spk_0 But if I've got someone on who's really busy and getting their time as

spk_0 precious, so I have to respect their time and doesn't always work out.

spk_0 So it's, yeah, it's painful when they got to leave.

spk_0 And yes, it's a really good conversation.

spk_0 I'm like, okay, well, thank you.

spk_0 Well, in the same way that podcasters remember their one star review, I remember

spk_0 the podcast going back to race thing.

spk_0 Somebody was interviewing Liz covert who does Ben Franklin's world.

spk_0 And she was going over the history of radio and how it's changed.

spk_0 And you start to see similarities between podcasting and radio.

spk_0 And the host was like, well, we're out of time.

spk_0 And I was like, it's a pod.

spk_0 I'm like screaming at my dashboard.

spk_0 It's a podcast.

spk_0 It's not like the, you know, the midday person is coming in and we got to go

spk_0 for Kenny, the kid or something.

spk_0 I was like, Oh, you're killing me.

spk_0 And they're like, Oh, we'll have her back.

spk_0 And then they never did.

spk_0 And I don't know.

spk_0 Is Kenny, the kid, a character, Dave, that I missed on Kenny, the kid is

spk_0 actually a guy that was a DJ in Cleveland was really good.

spk_0 Like so good that I would like set my alarm 730 on Saturday nights.

spk_0 And of course, and here's what he did.

spk_0 You ready for this?

spk_0 He let people pick the songs.

spk_0 Like it was actually a request.

spk_0 It was from 730 to midnight.

spk_0 And it was so good that you guessed it radio.

spk_0 Can do that.

spk_0 I was going to say, you know what?

spk_0 As a kid, I always called in for the request.

spk_0 And then I was just convinced that they took the request that were already on the list.

spk_0 Like it wasn't actually a request.

spk_0 But I don't know request.

spk_0 I once requested Judas Priest and they're like, yeah, we're not going to play that.

spk_0 But if you request lover boy, we'll play that.

spk_0 And I was like, Hey, rock and reek.

spk_0 Can I hear some lover boy?

spk_0 And they're like working for the weekend.

spk_0 And I was like, wow, okay, that's how that works.

spk_0 Well, I mean, let's admit it as podcasts.

spk_0 There's most of us were just the kid who was recording, waiting to hear us request the song.

spk_0 So we can hit the two button record and play.

spk_0 That's it.

spk_0 My name, I ban record and play.

spk_0 Or my clothes backwards.

spk_0 That's an old joke.

spk_0 All right.

spk_0 I just made up.

spk_0 Let's see.

spk_0 Liberty dude says, um, your podcast is your art and extension of you.

spk_0 Create your vision if feedback makes sense.

spk_0 Use it.

spk_0 If not, don't art.

spk_0 We'll never please ever.

spk_0 Everyone don't try.

spk_0 And I would say definitely because, you know, I'm talking about, you know, ask your

spk_0 audience and get that feedback.

spk_0 But there will be the squeaky wheel, right?

spk_0 And you have to be keep the, uh, the silent majority in mind, right?

spk_0 So take everything with a grain of salt, evaluate the feedback.

spk_0 Does it make sense for the show?

spk_0 Right?

spk_0 It's sure people are going to have.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 Because if somebody goes, Hey, I want you to go in this direction and you go, yeah,

spk_0 that's not really why I'm doing the podcast.

spk_0 There's a name for that person.

spk_0 It is, uh, not your target audience.

spk_0 Like I appreciate you listening, but that's not what we do here.

spk_0 Thank you.

spk_0 All right.

spk_0 It's really, um, that's really hard to do when you're trying to figure out what

spk_0 your audience wants.

spk_0 The longer you do it and the better you get to know your audience, the better

spk_0 you get at it.

spk_0 But when I started out, I, I did try a little bit everything, including live

spk_0 streaming, which we're going to get to in a second as we live stream.

spk_0 Um, sorry, I just love that.

spk_0 Anyway, the point is that, um, it's, it's difficult because I've fallen

spk_0 into this squeaky wheel syndrome myself and, um, and, and learned some hot

spk_0 lessons along the way.

spk_0 So one star comment they was talking about.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 You'll remember that one.

spk_0 That one.

spk_0 Mine is a bad commercial for a bad show.

spk_0 One star.

spk_0 I was like, I can quote that like a scripture, but tell me to ask me to quote a

spk_0 five star couldn't do it.

spk_0 But no, I had a, uh, a woman complain about my podcast rodeo show and I almost

spk_0 shut the whole thing down.

spk_0 And then I asked my audience and they're like, what are you talking about?

spk_0 No, this is because I was like, sometimes I come across this kind of mean.

spk_0 And they're like, no, no, no, keep doing it.

spk_0 That's just one like, don't pay no attention to the person crying behind the

spk_0 screen.

spk_0 It's like, she's fine.

spk_0 I was like, okay.

spk_0 So don't let that squeaky wheel be, you know, too, it may be loud, but it,

spk_0 there may, you need to check it for accuracy.

spk_0 Or like I said, in some cases, that's not your target audience.

spk_0 I think that, um, you know, you can't quote the five star reviews because I

spk_0 think those come in and they're more like, they're a lot more like size of

spk_0 relief.

spk_0 You're like, oh, all right.

spk_0 People, people are enjoying it, right?

spk_0 It has supposed to that one person who doesn't enjoy it.

spk_0 And also the comments are really bad too, because it's just like you suck.

spk_0 You're like, oh, I remember that.

spk_0 The nice review goes way into why they like it, which is the one you need to

spk_0 read and filter into your show and do more of like, hopefully you've done

spk_0 that, right?

spk_0 But I mean, yeah, shout out those when they come in, shout those out.

spk_0 Like, um, those are big.

spk_0 Those are big.

spk_0 That someone gives you their time to do that.

spk_0 And I mean, as a podcast, when we call probably read a review that, that was

spk_0 nice.

spk_0 And it's like, okay, I'm, I'm reaching people.

spk_0 This is working.

spk_0 This feels, this feels better than the beds.

spk_0 And save them.

spk_0 If they came in like as a email, save Mike, make a folder or something

spk_0 somewhere to save those.

spk_0 So on those days, when you're like, uh, time to make the podcast, I called on.

spk_0 Let's go read some of these and put some gas back at my tank.

spk_0 I would honestly say the only reason this show keeps going is because sometimes it's

spk_0 a, you know, we're not here.

spk_0 We're every two weeks, but sometimes.

spk_0 And when I able to show back up and then the guests come on and I meet new

spk_0 people, new experience every time we end, I'm like, ah, that's the reason that

spk_0 that pulls me back in every time.

spk_0 So the audience keeps it going.

spk_0 100%.

spk_0 All right.

spk_0 Let's get into one of the stories, uh, John, now that let's put the training

spk_0 back on the track.

spk_0 There is no track here, by the way, it's the round table, but we'll try.

spk_0 All right.

spk_0 So I picked this one.

spk_0 Um, it was, uh, like wherever you dig, you get your podcasts, um, it was on

spk_0 amplify media about it.

spk_0 I got the link from podcast business, uh, journal, uh, and it talks a bit

spk_0 about, uh, the different platforms and platform providers and different

spk_0 missteps that they've taken and, uh, and how lots of little apps that have had

spk_0 lots of VC money poured into them just haven't taken off.

spk_0 They haven't succeeded, uh, in the, um, and, and does a very light touch

spk_0 analysis on like exactly why they said that was the case.

spk_0 But for me, there were two takeaways.

spk_0 The, um, and the sub takeaway, which relates to the live streaming was the

spk_0 tune in tender to favor, uh, live audio.

spk_0 And I personally didn't understand the attraction of that, but that was

spk_0 cited as one of the reasons why they weren't successful.

spk_0 And then they talked about different ones like, uh, sorry, um,

spk_0 podcast, sorry, uh, and how it was a bit spent bounced across from NPR to,

spk_0 um, uh, automatic, I think it is, uh, and some of the other ones that have had

spk_0 lots of VC funding just haven't gone anywhere.

spk_0 And my observation was that ultimately platform, larger platform providers

spk_0 like Spotify and Apple are tending to succeed.

spk_0 Um, I would probably count YouTube because that's kind of like a balance and

spk_0 maybe even TikTok maybe as well.

spk_0 But that's sort of fringe if we're coming at this from the traditional podcasting

spk_0 angle, which is predominantly audio first.

spk_0 So as audio first, I think at the larger platform play,

spk_0 just seems to be the one that is ultimately more sustainable.

spk_0 And a lot of these other ones are just falling by the wayside.

spk_0 I see apps that are solving problems that don't exist.

spk_0 Like, oh, here's, you know, this one blah, blah, blah.

spk_0 Like I just heard we're another, there's another app that's coming out that's

spk_0 small snippets of audio.

spk_0 And I was like, do we, do we not remember that like, that's how anchor started?

spk_0 It was little like 15 seconds and, you know, TikTok now has gone to 10 minutes.

spk_0 I was like, how many times are we going to start off with a small snippet of something

spk_0 and then it goes up and blah, blah, blah.

spk_0 But like, I know I think bull horn is still around.

spk_0 And I know there's a feature that is different than any other app.

spk_0 But I couldn't tell you what it is.

spk_0 It's probably something to do with feedback or something like that with a name like

spk_0 bull horn. But I know they're around.

spk_0 They're probably VC funded.

spk_0 But, you know, it's, you have to, for me, I use overcast.

spk_0 And the only thing that I have remotely ever thought about leaving overcast for is

spk_0 Marco has come out and said, I'm not doing streaming satoshi's.

spk_0 I'm not doing the whole Bitcoin thing.

spk_0 Not going to do it.

spk_0 And I was like, that's a bummer because that's the one feature.

spk_0 I always tell people that are making those kind of apps where you know, newpodcastapps.com.

spk_0 I'm like, can you just make overcast?

spk_0 Can you just recreate this?

spk_0 And some of them are getting close.

spk_0 And when they get close and they stream, then I'll be like, okay,

spk_0 there's the one feature I need that this app doesn't do that I now want to do over here.

spk_0 But that's, and streaming Bitcoin is just a small percentage of people that even want to do that.

spk_0 But I think sometimes people make apps that are like, oh, this one allows you to do such

spk_0 and such. And I'm like, is anybody wanting that?

spk_0 You know, so.

spk_0 I think you're right about tune in.

spk_0 In the case, it was pretty, the live audio was the brand.

spk_0 Like you understood, I think if you understood what tune in was, you kind of understood that.

spk_0 It kind of felt like radio for podcasters, for producers, in early days,

spk_0 it was the way to get in on, what was it?

spk_0 The echo or something like that.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 Early what it'll do today's and I'm a lifetime pod pocketcast user.

spk_0 I absolutely love it.

spk_0 And the reason I'm trying to remember why I went there in the first place,

spk_0 but it had the best UI early on.

spk_0 And so it hooked me early.

spk_0 And I think people tend to stick with the one that they find and is good enough.

spk_0 But it makes me wonder how much of it is, you know, sort of a network effect.

spk_0 And being early, right?

spk_0 So Apple, obviously, like the first major podcast directory, right?

spk_0 To really have like that network effect, that massive audience that's already there.

spk_0 So that's naturally why people go there.

spk_0 And then they sort of stay there.

spk_0 People don't like change.

spk_0 They don't move.

spk_0 They don't move that often.

spk_0 Spotify, you know, maybe think if you're trying to compete with Google today, could you do it?

spk_0 Right? So I started using Brave browser recently.

spk_0 For I just need another browser.

spk_0 And I like it.

spk_0 But it, you know, I think Brave browser is all about security and then

spk_0 the crypto plays into that a little bit too.

spk_0 So they're trying to find their niche, right?

spk_0 Because going, becoming something bigger than Google or even Safari or Firefox at this point

spk_0 is pretty, pretty hard.

spk_0 Now you could say, oh, Spotify came along late.

spk_0 They busted in their number two, which that number two has kind of always been up for the

spk_0 taking weirdly. It's just been sitting there.

spk_0 We remember the zoom.

spk_0 Microsoft had they had the chance to just lock that in.

spk_0 The number two was locked in by zoom.

spk_0 And then they, you know, rip on RIP zoom.

spk_0 So or zoom.

spk_0 Gotta be careful.

spk_0 These days, zoom is so synonymous.

spk_0 But how did they do it?

spk_0 Again, they already had such a massive built-in audience.

spk_0 And then they threw a lot of money at it.

spk_0 And I'm not even sure if it's been worth it to them at this point.

spk_0 But maybe it pays off.

spk_0 Maybe it will pay off.

spk_0 I don't know.

spk_0 So it's tough to climb that hill.

spk_0 Yeah, I would say if I was launching a new app,

spk_0 yeah, you can go to podcast movement and podcast.

spk_0 But I would like go to different cities.

spk_0 And I don't know, go to the library and do a how to listen to podcasts,

spk_0 you know, 30-minute presentation and show people how to use my app.

spk_0 Because when you go to a current listener,

spk_0 you're asking them to leave something where they've already got playlists set up

spk_0 and their speeds and everything else that they've totally configured this to them.

spk_0 And now like, I gotta go over here and refind all my shows.

spk_0 I would go after people that aren't listening to podcasts yet.

spk_0 And then because then when they learn on that new app,

spk_0 that's now the app that you're gonna have to pry their cold dead hands.

spk_0 Because they like, I've been using this for years.

spk_0 Yeah, so I just remember tuning in back before I had one of these.

spk_0 Yes, kids, this is a radio.

spk_0 That's what we're pulling out to zoom.

spk_0 I thought I was being zoomed.

spk_0 There's a zoom back there, isn't there?

spk_0 I like the brown.

spk_0 I want a brown one.

spk_0 You don't have a zoom date.

spk_0 I do not have a reo.

spk_0 You have a reo MP3 player.

spk_0 Probably do somewhere.

spk_0 Yeah, still rubs.

spk_0 Yeah, that's it.

spk_0 But I would listen to, because tuning head sports,

spk_0 they're like baseball or something like that.

spk_0 I remember once, for whatever reason,

spk_0 the game was blacked out or something like that.

spk_0 I was like, I wonder if I can listen to this on tuning in.

spk_0 And I was.

spk_0 So I was like, well, that's kind of cool.

spk_0 But other than that,

spk_0 I haven't, it's not an app I frequent on a regular basis, if at all.

spk_0 I mentioned overtaking Google.

spk_0 But what about Google jumping in and overtaking Spotify?

spk_0 Apple, right?

spk_0 You, John, you mentioned YouTube, right?

spk_0 And we've kind of all been sitting around waiting for YouTube to do something else with podcasts.

spk_0 Or to, for Google to open up hosting, right?

spk_0 They, they host video that they won the video game.

spk_0 I said that they killed the video podcast star because they won video.

spk_0 There were video podcasts you had to upload.

spk_0 You had to host them.

spk_0 It's still too expensive to host video podcast.

spk_0 Like for, we're not hosting this show or like an hour long, right?

spk_0 You could do who has an eight minute podcast anymore.

spk_0 In the days, early days, there were great like eight to ten minute video podcasts.

spk_0 It's kind of what they were, right?

spk_0 Because you had like geek brief and tiki bar TV and the news, the rocket news.

spk_0 You had all that stuff that was short format.

spk_0 But now most podcasts are long format.

spk_0 To host that on video,

spk_0 and there also used to be a bunch of free platforms.

spk_0 And you can't, people always say,

spk_0 well, you host on YouTube and then you put that in a podcast.

spk_0 But you don't have access to the mp4 and all that stuff, right?

spk_0 So, um, yeah, could YouTube do this?

spk_0 Will they do this?

spk_0 Is it, you know, I don't know.

spk_0 What do you think, John?

spk_0 It was you kind of accounted it.

spk_0 I actually think that YouTube could do it.

spk_0 But I'm not entirely sure they're going to because I think that their branding is,

spk_0 well, you know, we're a video platform first.

spk_0 And they just want to, I think it's more convenient for them to rebrand what a podcast is

spk_0 and say, well, a podcast has, it can have video too.

spk_0 And we got all the podcasts.

spk_0 And it's like, yeah, but it's not really audio.

spk_0 So if I have to look at a screen, I can't listen to it when I'm doing something with my eyes.

spk_0 The, you know, like I should be watching the road when I'm driving, you know, just a thought.

spk_0 But, you know, I think that they definitely have the capacity to do it.

spk_0 On the subject of video podcasts, by the way, I tried an experiment

spk_0 about four months ago.

spk_0 I have my Christmas holidays.

spk_0 I'm like, you know, I'm going to do something different,

spk_0 which is whenever I say that, always get worried.

spk_0 But I got a, what is it?

spk_0 A monogopro was a DJI Osmo, whatever secondhand action cam, anyway.

spk_0 And I connected it to the car and did a couple of little, you know, driving sort of videos

spk_0 related to electric cars and so on.

spk_0 And I've done five episodes of it and I hosted that myself on my server.

spk_0 I've got like, you know, two and a half terabytes of upload bandwidth.

spk_0 And, you know, I'm a geek and I own every layer of the stack because I'm a geek.

spk_0 I'm not your regular, you know, anyway, it doesn't matter.

spk_0 My point is that I posted that and it was sort of, if it ever took off, it would kill my server.

spk_0 So I'm actually banking on it, not taking off, which sounds odd.

spk_0 It was a bit of fun, a bit of an experiment, but it does not scale.

spk_0 So I can absolutely see why YouTube won.

spk_0 It's, yeah, they have, but whether or not they can redefine what a podcast is,

spk_0 remains to be saying, I think.

spk_0 I mean, I think they almost broke themselves trying.

spk_0 Like, YouTube didn't make money forever from what I understand.

spk_0 They lost money, hand over a fist for like many, many years of its existence.

spk_0 And I mean, kudos to them.

spk_0 They saw the long game, I guess.

spk_0 And now they're practically what TV is.

spk_0 I mean, they're practically what music is.

spk_0 I mean, Spotify is committing with YouTube.

spk_0 Kids, it's free people.

spk_0 When you want to hear music, I even go to YouTube and like, I want to hear that song.

spk_0 I'll put on YouTube because I know it's there.

spk_0 Right? I know I can get it with nothing in between.

spk_0 Now, you talked about being able to, you know, they have the premium subscription,

spk_0 which lets you listen without watching.

spk_0 You can even close the app, not close the app, but minimize the app, do other stuff.

spk_0 So if you're in a car, there's just something about like, if there is a video player there,

spk_0 there's some type of barrier.

spk_0 Like, we feel like we're, it just feels wrong.

spk_0 Like, oh, you just have an image in audio, but if you just give me no image in just audio,

spk_0 that feels more like a podcast app.

spk_0 I don't know.

spk_0 Yeah, YouTube is, it's funny because we talked about, there was some research done

spk_0 fairly recently that asked people where they, where they listen to podcasts, just open in it.

spk_0 And I think YouTube was, was right at the very top, right?

spk_0 Because people who listen don't, they don't split it up, right?

spk_0 They don't, they don't define what a podcast is. They just, they just know there's a podcast.

spk_0 They like that's on YouTube.

spk_0 You know, and that, that, that makes a question like, are you on YouTube?

spk_0 Should you be on YouTube? How are you on YouTube?

spk_0 All of that stuff, which we've talked about plenty of times.

spk_0 Well, and YouTube is coming to podcast movement.

spk_0 I'm, is it evolutions?

spk_0 Nice.

spk_0 Or the one that's probably the LA one.

spk_0 Yeah, they're, they're talking.

spk_0 So we're all kind of like, oh, because that's next week.

spk_0 And we're all like, what are they going to say?

spk_0 Like it's, it's all like, okay, well, now you got my, oh, they're speaking or they just come,

spk_0 because they've, they've always lurched, I guarantee it.

spk_0 All the conference we've been there was, I believe somebody is coming and they're speaking.

spk_0 So that's when we all went, oh, because hey, first they're there.

spk_0 I remember when they launched Google podcast about whatever, probably two or three years ago,

spk_0 they were there on this cool, because they had a booth.

spk_0 Like you could talk to somebody from Google and they were explaining how, you know,

spk_0 they were going to make podcasts.

spk_0 Was that exact?

spk_0 Yeah, I was, I was, a couple other people.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 Because I remember the one guy was, we had, we had a guy for a while.

spk_0 We had a guy.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 We could, we could tweet him.

spk_0 And it was amazing.

spk_0 And, you know, I know it's hard to believe, but it seems like Google has retired that,

spk_0 not that they ever, you know, that's what they do.

spk_0 I was going to bring that up.

spk_0 Don't forget that Google has tried and tried and tried at the podcasting thing and they give up on

spk_0 it, right?

spk_0 Whether it's helping, whether it's feed burner or it's, what was the first iteration of Google

spk_0 podcast?

spk_0 It was like, there was something.

spk_0 Google, listen.

spk_0 Yes, Google, listen.

spk_0 They've tried.

spk_0 And then, yeah, I mean, it's not really podcasting, but they had Google plus.

spk_0 Was their answer to that was social.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 But so, you know, and if you listen to James Kriglin, he's kind of mentioned that we all

spk_0 know Zach has gone into someplace else.

spk_0 And there was somebody.

spk_0 You went to Apple, I believe.

spk_0 Oh, that's funny.

spk_0 And, uh, and if you listen to James, James is kind of like, I'm not sure who's running the ship

spk_0 at Google podcast.

spk_0 And it's like, it's a bummer because I mean, there are number three now.

spk_0 So it's without trying.

spk_0 I get it.

spk_0 I'm even trying.

spk_0 Right?

spk_0 Like, that's what I mean.

spk_0 Two was up for grabs because no one was trying.

spk_0 Like, yeah, that's unfair to apps that are giving it a hard go.

spk_0 But I feel like it was there for one of these bigger companies to just be like,

spk_0 we're going to own at least the second spot.

spk_0 Right?

spk_0 And Google could feels like they could own it.

spk_0 Now, Spotify's come on very strong.

spk_0 So they probably have it.

spk_0 And of course, their strategy is to make announcements that sound phenomenal.

spk_0 And then just don't deliver on them.

spk_0 Those are costly announcements they're making over.

spk_0

spk_0 It's costly, and I think that's true.

spk_0 Awesome.

spk_0 John, any more to add on this one?

spk_0 Any more thoughts?

spk_0 I don't think so.

spk_0 I think that it's, it's, it's grand that we sort of covered a few times.

spk_0 But I should say, you guys have covered several times on the, on the show.

spk_0 And I do think that the, um, the next big players in podcasting are going to come from

spk_0 non-traditional podcasting areas like YouTube, like TikTok.

spk_0 And I think that that's sort of inevitable.

spk_0 Because of the scale you need to be operating at to actually offer some kind of competition.

spk_0 And I mean, Spotify just keep on throwing money at the problem and, and bring in in more and more,

spk_0 you know, platforms and people and so on.

spk_0 That's their play.

spk_0 They want it to be, don't want to be the one stop shop for your ears.

spk_0 Essentially, you want to listen to audio.

spk_0 They got what you need kind of thing.

spk_0 And YouTube in many respects is trying the same kind of thing.

spk_0 They're just coming out from a different angle.

spk_0 Sorry.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 It's gonna mean you see how this applies out in the next couple of years.

spk_0 How does that affect us?

spk_0 The producers, even listeners, like how do you think, especially producers, right?

spk_0 If you're listening to this show, you probably make a podcast.

spk_0 So I don't know.

spk_0 Do you guys try, is this just a part of B everywhere?

spk_0 Like if there's an offer to, if there's a platform who says they've, they're putting podcasts on it.

spk_0 Because here's the thing too, right?

spk_0 YouTube is not a podcast platform.

spk_0 So it's not as easy to just be there, right?

spk_0 Because you can't just, you can't just put your RSS feed and they take it, right?

spk_0 And so now another just, just to distribute some point for us as a podcaster.

spk_0 Now, Davey, work at Lipson.

spk_0 They have a tool that will, will do this over to YouTube, but not all do.

spk_0 And I bet not a lot of people, I bet the most people don't use that.

spk_0 And I don't know why.

spk_0 And I'm totally guessing maybe Davey, you know better.

spk_0 But as producers of podcasts, like, I guess what do I'm asking you guys?

spk_0 Is it, do you see new platform go to a new platform?

spk_0 Or, you know, you said TikTok and I'm like, that makes me think,

spk_0 I got to do something else, which I'm just not going to do.

spk_0 And so I'm making a choice of audience versus work flow, right?

spk_0 Bandwidth.

spk_0 But I know I heard Mark from Captivate mentioned about some platform.

spk_0 I want to say it was in Africa.

spk_0 Like, you know, in the same way that D's are kind of the Pandora of Europe.

spk_0 And Ghana is the super popular audio thing in India.

spk_0 There's one in Africa that apparently is, you know, coming down the pike.

spk_0 So, but that again is taking an app with a build in audience and just, you know, kind of shoe

spk_0 horning in podcasting.

spk_0 Do you, what do you, I mean, as a producer though, do you look for new platforms?

spk_0 Or do you just, I do.

spk_0 That's one of my things that I scratch my head on because when I see somebody that goes,

spk_0 oh, yeah, I'm only in Spotify and Apple.

spk_0 And I was like, I get a couple of hundred downloads from Ghana.

spk_0 Those people speak English and, you know, they might know somebody who knows somebody who

spk_0 wants something that I offer.

spk_0 So, and it's free.

spk_0 That's the other one that I go, it takes maybe a minute and a half to set yourself up on a,

spk_0 on a platform.

spk_0 You do it once and then you're done.

spk_0 And there's, like, it's not like it's going to hurt your show in any way.

spk_0 It's like, well, everything was doing great until I got more exposure in another country.

spk_0 I don't understand that.

spk_0 So, that's the one that always, I just scratch my head because they're like, well,

spk_0 I was thinking about using this one and maybe this one and that one.

spk_0 And I'm like, why would you not just list your show everywhere?

spk_0 Because, you know, you never know who's listening here.

spk_0 I have a centigree, a hundred percentigree.

spk_0 And I think that the first time I heard it was Dan Benjamin on Five By Five saying, you know,

spk_0 be everywhere.

spk_0 I always say, if I have a podcast, I want everyone to be able to listen to it from any platform

spk_0 that they want to.

spk_0 So, I kind of look at it as two categories of those platforms.

spk_0 One's that, like you say, Dave, point to the RSS feed, you know,

spk_0 claim your podcast, whatever.

spk_0 And then you'll automatically suck it up the next time you publish a new episode

spk_0 in your RSS feed.

spk_0 And it's kind of like, it's 10, 15 minutes of your time and then it's done one and done kind of thing.

spk_0 To the left of finger.

spk_0 And then the other category as well, now I've got an extra step.

spk_0 And the extra step is an example like YouTube.

spk_0 And what point is, well, they aren't going to do that.

spk_0 You have to encode the video.

spk_0 If you're on a platform like Libsen, you know, for example, that will export,

spk_0 you can have an export option, which I actually did do on causality for quite some time.

spk_0 I was skeptical, but it was actually low effort on my part.

spk_0 So, you know, thumbs up to Libsen for offering that.

spk_0 And then when I eventually turned that off for a myriad of reasons,

spk_0 I decided, you know, I can actually just do that because I had it in Fairright on my iPad.

spk_0 So I export that as a video and I upload it manually.

spk_0 So, but the funny thing is that the more I do this from time to time now,

spk_0 I've sort of looked at this between premium content, which is like ad free and so on,

spk_0 that I make in a high bit rate, high quality format that I offer for some premium subscribers.

spk_0 And the public available stuff as well as the video stuff.

spk_0 My list of destinations, I've got a checklist that's like this long of things I've got to upload too.

spk_0 Which it gets to be a bit of a hassle.

spk_0 But on the YouTube front, I do believe it is a destination that you do need to be in,

spk_0 even if it is just like my chapter artwork encoded against the audio.

spk_0 I know that some people I've had feedback from people saying,

spk_0 oh, you know, this isn't really a video, why is it on here?

spk_0 And I've other people that have discovered the show.

spk_0 And it's usually based on the anniversaries of different things.

spk_0 So I do, causality looks at cause and effective disasters and incidents and history.

spk_0 And Ocean Ranger had its 40th anniversary of that incident a few weeks ago.

spk_0 And then that particular video was hovering around 150 views.

spk_0 It's now over 8,000 views.

spk_0 And it's like, and some of those people made list start listening to the podcasts

spk_0 and so on, brought up beyond that, bringing in new listeners.

spk_0 And I think you do have to be everywhere, even if it's not an ideal experience.

spk_0 It ties in real nicely to the squeaky wheel.

spk_0 As one person said, why you on here doesn't make sense.

spk_0 And then you have a segment that is discovering your show.

spk_0 The actual healthy engagement.

spk_0 You know, no one's helping you by telling you, go away.

spk_0 So that's a troll.

spk_0 Ignore the trolls, like listen to the people or, you know,

spk_0 obviously if people are discovering you that wouldn't have discovered you before,

spk_0 that's a win, right?

spk_0 And then there was always this question of mixing in that type of content with a

spk_0 quote unquote regular YouTube channel.

spk_0 I wouldn't do that.

spk_0 I've done that.

spk_0 I keep going back to video podcasting because if you don't know,

spk_0 my first podcast was a video podcast.

spk_0 But I remind me of the days when as video podcasters,

spk_0 we had to manually upload to like 20 sites.

spk_0 And then there was a there was a service called,

spk_0 I don't remember what it was called, which is crazy now.

spk_0 It feels crazy.

spk_0 That would finally do it for you.

spk_0 And that was amazing.

spk_0 But then you always had to check and it was a mess.

spk_0 And so, yeah, good days.

spk_0 But that is a perfect segue into, you know, you talked about platforms that are not,

spk_0 I would say podcast focused or podcast centric in that they take your R.

spk_0 Says feed.

spk_0 However, there are podcasts on them, right?

spk_0 I mean, we talk about promotion all the time.

spk_0 And if you want to be on Instagram, you got to make some art and put some audio to it.

spk_0 You know, do different things.

spk_0 These are all things that add to the limited time that most podcasters have.

spk_0 And it's like, do you or don't you?

spk_0 Is it worth it?

spk_0 Livestreaming, right?

spk_0 I mean, that goes right into live streaming.

spk_0 And I put on our list that I want to talk about Twitter spaces.

spk_0 Because that's sort of the newest thing that I've seen that is podcast like.

spk_0 But it's not.

spk_0 And it's it's live.

spk_0 If you haven't joined a Twitter space if you're on Twitter,

spk_0 you'll see someone's avatars just have a glowing circle around it.

spk_0 And it's live.

spk_0 It's just live streaming.

spk_0 But it's a live conversation.

spk_0 We've seen this multiple times.

spk_0 I was mere cat.

spk_0 I still have the t-shirt was mere cat video.

spk_0 I think it was video too.

spk_0 But audio only streaming is not like a thing we've seen too much of if I'm,

spk_0 if I'm recalling.

spk_0 But I've tuned into several Twitter spaces recently.

spk_0 A niche that I've recently started following is very Twitter space centric.

spk_0 And honestly, they're horrible.

spk_0 They're horrible.

spk_0 But the thing is that it's horrible in the worst way.

spk_0 Because guess what?

spk_0 I want the information.

spk_0 Getting to it is a, oh, it's just annoying.

spk_0 So between the bad audio quality, which, you know, not most people,

spk_0 a lot of people aren't going to recognize or care about.

spk_0 Maybe I don't know.

spk_0 You'll certainly see podcast reviews that say your audio is terrible.

spk_0 I can't listen to this anymore.

spk_0 So you should pay attention to that.

spk_0 It is literally the one instrument you have when you're an audio podcaster.

spk_0 Pay, put some investment into your time there.

spk_0 But or time into your investment, whatever.

spk_0 So between that, but I mean, inevitably, right?

spk_0 What does everyone do when they start a live stream?

spk_0 Well, we'll give people five, ten minutes to roll in here.

spk_0 And we'll just wait.

spk_0 What are you doing?

spk_0 So fortunately, I would say most of these are recorded.

spk_0 They're not all recorded.

spk_0 It's an option.

spk_0 So like I can go back and scrub through this stuff.

spk_0 But it's just bad.

spk_0 And it makes me think of podcasts.

spk_0 What's the difference?

spk_0 And so I would not call this live streaming.

spk_0 Because it is this like a, it sort of is.

spk_0 You sort of have the people who are on stage and they can invite other people on stage.

spk_0 I don't know.

spk_0 Have you guys checked out Twitter spaces?

spk_0 I am thinking about doing it now tomorrow.

spk_0 But you'll do it.

spk_0 You'll do it well because you're coming from it as a producer of a show.

spk_0 So Twitter spaces, it's just like where the people who aren't.

spk_0 They're not in podcasts.

spk_0 How do you start a Twitter space?

spk_0 I assume from the app.

spk_0 I've never done it.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 So I actually tried it just a heck of a bad, a four or five months ago.

spk_0 It's not even available in Australia since about a year.

spk_0 And I just squeaked in above the requirements.

spk_0 The cutoff is like 600 followers, like a like 630 something on Twitter.

spk_0 I haven't really been super active on Twitter for the last four or five years.

spk_0 There's a lot of negativity out there.

spk_0 And I sort of the platform itself makes me like,

spk_0 triggers me.

spk_0 And maybe that's true.

spk_0 That's true.

spk_0 Pointed out for them.

spk_0 Yes.

spk_0 We triggered.

spk_0 Yes.

spk_0 Are you like you triggered right now?

spk_0 Anyway, so I just fired it up just for the heck of it.

spk_0 And I had one person join.

spk_0 They didn't actually say anything.

spk_0 And it was pretty much 20 minutes of nothing.

spk_0 And it's like, well, I suppose I thought,

spk_0 well, is that Twitter space as fault or is it?

spk_0 I just don't have enough followers that are interested,

spk_0 that know what they're looking for.

spk_0 It was still early days.

spk_0 So it may be a different story now.

spk_0 I joined a couple of other Twitter spaces and finding is right.

spk_0 What you just described is exactly what happened.

spk_0 They're like, well, we're just going to wait a few more minutes for a few more people to

spk_0 join.

spk_0 And I'm like looking at my watch and I'm like, I don't have a few more minutes.

spk_0 I'm just, I'm out by, thanks.

spk_0 This was the waste of my time.

spk_0 It was frustrating.

spk_0 I did not enjoy once.

spk_0 I mean, live streaming we've often talked about,

spk_0 Dave, it's like it's like bonus content almost, right?

spk_0 It's for your hardest core user.

spk_0 And when you say, we're starting at four.

spk_0 That's when the content should be there.

spk_0 It's not we're going to start gathering hanging.

spk_0 It's not a cocktail party.

spk_0 Like, is there not going to mingle first?

spk_0 Like I came here with intention.

spk_0 And as a person who is producing something,

spk_0 the hardest thing you can get is to do is, well,

spk_0 get someone to send you email or feedback.

spk_0 Then it's to show up to your live stream.

spk_0 Very hard, right?

spk_0 That's why time-shifting content is so successful

spk_0 because it's on someone else's schedule.

spk_0 So if someone shows up to your live performance,

spk_0 what we're doing here, you know, try to start on time,

spk_0 but we get to the content and we understand it says, show makers.

spk_0

spk_0 Why I was wondering like at their job,

spk_0 is their boss like showing up at 8 a.m.

spk_0 and he's like, ah, let's see if anybody shows up today.

spk_0 Like, no, you show up at work on time.

spk_0 So obviously you have the skills to show up

spk_0 and perform at a certain time.

spk_0 But if it's a webinar, it's like, hey,

spk_0 where's everybody from?

spk_0 Oh, look, Pekipsi.

spk_0 Good.

spk_0 Oh, all right.

spk_0 Cincinnati's in the house.

spk_0 Oh, Texas, Texas.

spk_0 It's hot there.

spk_0 Yes, I'm like, it's so boring.

spk_0 And then if that's not bad enough,

spk_0 when you then post it later, you do not edit it out.

spk_0 Right.

spk_0 So now I have to fast forward through.

spk_0 Oh, London's in the house.

spk_0 Look at the, oh, wow, Brisbane.

spk_0 It's like, okay, you know, that drives me nuts.

spk_0 MattiCare says the clubhouse was just as ridiculous.

spk_0 So Twitter's basis felt like an answer to clubhouse.

spk_0 Like clubhouse was stealing,

spk_0 not stealing, but they were getting a lot of attention,

spk_0 a lot of attention.

spk_0 Like, like, it was part of the scarcity model

spk_0 because early on you couldn't get in,

spk_0 like unless you were like, specially invited

spk_0 or something, something ridiculous like that.

spk_0 And when that ran out, so did clubhouse.

spk_0 I don't know.

spk_0 It's probably still a thing.

spk_0 There's probably still a community there.

spk_0 But he said it started out fresh and exciting

spk_0 and quickly devolved into something boring and horrible,

spk_0 which is what I feel like most of these turn into.

spk_0 Now you could say, you could say the same thing about podcasts,

spk_0 like in terms of anchor opened up,

spk_0 you got a bunch of trash in there

spk_0 because it was low effort content.

spk_0 And that, you know, I'm always torn between,

spk_0 did that help or her podcasting, right?

spk_0 In terms of like, it got people in,

spk_0 it got in, it got in words and voices

spk_0 that wouldn't have been heard,

spk_0 but it also turned a lot of people off

spk_0 because they couldn't weed through the garbage, right?

spk_0 So same thing with Twitter spaces.

spk_0 These things never seem to last

spk_0 because I don't think that they are,

spk_0 what you find out is the most of them are not that great.

spk_0 And I don't know if podcasts work better

spk_0 because when you find one,

spk_0 you can just subscribe and then you can kind of count on it.

spk_0 It's more organized.

spk_0 Really is because at least then I know

spk_0 what the podcast is going to give me week to week.

spk_0 Twitter space is very random.

spk_0 Now if we as podcasters ran a regular Twitter space,

spk_0 it would be much different.

spk_0 But what are the platforms going to be there

spk_0 or not in a year?

spk_0 Probably not.

spk_0 But Ray, they're just keeping it real.

spk_0 They are just keeping it real.

spk_0 They're keeping it real.

spk_0 When I was in Nashville,

spk_0 I was talking to somebody and I said,

spk_0 so tell me about your podcast and he said,

spk_0 oh, we do it Rogan style.

spk_0 You know, just me and the co-edits talking about comic books.

spk_0 For two hours.

spk_0 Yeah, and I was like,

spk_0 yeah, that's not a thing.

spk_0 Like it is a thing,

spk_0 but it was like,

spk_0 you're like,

spk_0 are you interviewing celebrities like Joe is?

spk_0 Oh, well, then it's probably not going to work.

spk_0 I mean, what do you want to get out of it?

spk_0 Like it's going to work if you and your friends are having fun.

spk_0 So I joke about four dudes in a comic book.

spk_0 It works if that is like your week in activity,

spk_0 stellar, but you know,

spk_0 most people who start a show,

spk_0 they actually want people to hear it.

spk_0 And they want more people to hear it every week

spk_0 because why else are you talking to a microphone

spk_0 and putting it out in the world?

spk_0 John, you look like something.

spk_0 Yeah, I,

spk_0 yeah, I'm nodding a lot because I'm agreeing a lot.

spk_0 I think the problem with life for me is that it's a time,

spk_0 it's like a time slice of exposure.

spk_0 So, you know, if I put a podcast out there that's up there,

spk_0 24 hours a day, seven days a week,

spk_0 anyone may happen across it.

spk_0 And, you know,

spk_0 they'll just,

spk_0 they'll just, that looks interesting.

spk_0 I'll just keep that for a rainy day kind of thing.

spk_0 Or when I'm, you know, doing my,

spk_0 doing my combine harvester up and down the field

spk_0 or whatever I'm doing.

spk_0 And, and they may like it.

spk_0 They may listen to it and they say,

spk_0 oh, this is really good.

spk_0 I'll give another episode a go of that.

spk_0 And before you know it,

spk_0 they hooked on it and they listened every episode and so on.

spk_0 And you've got a, you've got a fan of follow of the show.

spk_0 But with live, the problem is that you've got this little slice in time

spk_0 when you're actually making that content.

spk_0 And I mean, I know you can record it and post it later,

spk_0 but the attraction of life is to be there when it's live

spk_0 so that what you can do is you can say,

spk_0 well, here are some comments like we have right now on this show.

spk_0 Coming in real time, we can talk about it on the show.

spk_0 But that's a very narrow slice of time in a week.

spk_0 If you're not there for that narrow window, you miss out.

spk_0 And it's the problem with that is that in order to get more people

spk_0 to actually come onto that,

spk_0 they have to come on when it's happening.

spk_0 And I did actually stream pragmatic live

spk_0 at two different stages of the production of it.

spk_0 So back in 2014, I did it and I did it again in 2018.

spk_0 And it never really,

spk_0 because I could never find a time zone that suited everybody.

spk_0 There are a lot of US-based listeners like the majority of my

spk_0 listeners are in the US, but I have a reasonable number

spk_0 from Europe and a reasonable number from Australia.

spk_0 So finding one time to do it is extremely difficult.

spk_0 So I felt like in the end, it wasn't worth the effort.

spk_0 So I've kind of pulled the pin on live just,

spk_0 and I asked recently the patrons, I put a survey and said,

spk_0 hey guys, would you be interested in resurrecting live?

spk_0 And the answer was the unanimous no.

spk_0 So.

spk_0 Wow.

spk_0 Yeah, it's plus it's a different scale.

spk_0 I know when I first started doing things on StreamYard,

spk_0 I was horrendous because I could not stop,

spk_0 like mid-sentence, I'd be talking along and then be like,

spk_0 and really my favorite microphone is,

spk_0 oh, look, Tina said this.

spk_0 And I was like, wait, what?

spk_0 I was just all over the place.

spk_0 So that has to come in.

spk_0 If you're taking, I have it set up where people can jump

spk_0 into StreamYard while I'm doing it live.

spk_0 You better have the skill and the courage and the courage

spk_0 to tell someone, hey, thanks so much for showing up.

spk_0 We're glad you're here and kick them out.

spk_0 Because if you listen to any radio show,

spk_0 somebody would be like, man, I think the brown should trade

spk_0 may field. He's an idiot.

spk_0 And that's why.

spk_0 And then the host will say, yeah,

spk_0 he didn't have a good year last year, blah, blah, blah.

spk_0 And then the gas will go, yeah, I think we should trade him.

spk_0 He's like, they just keep repeating the same point.

spk_0 And that's where as the host, you have to realize, okay,

spk_0 this person has said all the, like, whatever they were

spk_0 bringing to the table, they put it on the table,

spk_0 and they don't want to leave.

spk_0 So you have to have the skill to go, hey,

spk_0 thanks so much for Colin Sparky.

spk_0 And next up, we have whatever.

spk_0 But yeah, lives a whole other thing.

spk_0 Plus if you're the engineer and you're trying to do fun things,

spk_0 like, oh, that wasn't good.

spk_0 You know, now you have a lot going on.

spk_0 So it's live is fun.

spk_0 I get maybe 3% of my audience if I'm lucky.

spk_0 The show's up live.

spk_0 So that's the other thing.

spk_0 And then you have to make sure not to go.

spk_0 My favorite is when I listen to Joe Rogan watch YouTube.

spk_0 That's the best audio ever.

spk_0 Because he's like, hey, uh,

spk_0 Terry or whatever is, you know, co-host is put that up on the screen.

spk_0 Oh, look at that.

spk_0 Oh, no, no, no, no, did you see my,

spk_0 yeah, this is fabulous audio.

spk_0 So that drives me nuts.

spk_0 Yeah, it's, uh,

spk_0 you, you, you have a comment.

spk_0 No, so Tiana says my favorite podcast records live.

spk_0 I love it because they bring questions and comments from the live chat.

spk_0 My input gets into the podcast each week.

spk_0 Well, there you go, Tiana.

spk_0 You're in your input is put into this podcast.

spk_0 But there you go.

spk_0 It's because, um, you know, and we can do that, right?

spk_0 The why does this show do live?

spk_0 Because it, the stream yard is a, um,

spk_0 it's a tool I use to connect remotely with people in Australia.

spk_0 Like quite honestly, it's easy, all right?

spk_0 Um, stream yard is made.

spk_0 I did, uh, so I produce at work where I'm not on camera.

spk_0 And I also use stream yard and it depends.

spk_0 Like I'll use riverside for remote recording,

spk_0 because you'll get the highest quality remote recording.

spk_0 But I use stream yard day in and day out for this style of round table type

spk_0 podcast, because I did it all from my phone.

spk_0 I produce for my phone.

spk_0 Everything you see me doing here,

spk_0 which actually I do a lot more,

spk_0 bringing banners and CTAs and all this stuff.

spk_0 Stream yard makes it extremely easy and people can join.

spk_0 They don't have to be on Chrome.

spk_0 Like it can be on most devices.

spk_0 Like just all these reasons, right?

spk_0 So it's the right tool for the right job.

spk_0 And for the round table, we do this.

spk_0 And look, I'm talking to podcasters.

spk_0 So audio, right?

spk_0 The audio is mixed.

spk_0 Oh, however, and I don't have a premium stream yard.

spk_0 Because as you see that, uh,

spk_0 John's got the lovely stream yard duct today.

spk_0 Congrats, John.

spk_0 Skype headphones and all.

spk_0 You're the winner.

spk_0 But, uh, it's a malered award for stream.

spk_0 We love your stream yard because you're free and you're still here.

spk_0 And, um, which is Dave's, you know, not a good business model.

spk_0 But they have a premium and they'll split out.

spk_0 I haven't tried it yet.

spk_0 So I don't know about sync issues and all that stuff.

spk_0 And it's not endorsement.

spk_0 Hashtag, not sponsored all of that.

spk_0 But, um, yeah, we do it because it's easy.

spk_0 And I, again, I talked to podcasters.

spk_0 The audio is good.

spk_0 I do some live mixing here in real time.

spk_0 So that when that audio was done,

spk_0 I actually record it on this side natively.

spk_0 So mine is a separate track from the guest.

spk_0 But the guests, they know how to do audio.

spk_0 Now most podcasts are not going to have this.

spk_0 They're not going to have the luxury of bringing on people

spk_0 who have great mic setups and know how to be on microphone.

spk_0 So it works for this.

spk_0 Um, but, uh, let's see.

spk_0 My favorite podcast here, uh, doesn't wait.

spk_0 She starts on time.

spk_0 And there was another.

spk_0 Let's see.

spk_0 Tiana also said, if you do it right, um,

spk_0 doing the live recording of your podcast can work really well.

spk_0 And I think doing it right, you know,

spk_0 Dave, you mentioned how a lot of it is not post-produced, right?

spk_0 So, uh, uh, uh,

spk_0 a Twitter space might get recorded.

spk_0 And then it just, it just sits there as, as the same raw,

spk_0 ugly audio that it was.

spk_0 And there is some element too.

spk_0 If you're live, you might be able to do that.

spk_0 You might be able to welcome people in and,

spk_0 and have a little bit of almost pre-show.

spk_0 And post-show, but as a recorded show that you're going to publish, right,

spk_0 that should be tightened up, so to say.

spk_0 So we do it because it's convenient and it works.

spk_0 Do I think this does well?

spk_0 And you know, we get, I don't know what we get.

spk_0 Um, you know, any one of these can do,

spk_0 you know, 500 or a thousand views on, on YouTube over time.

spk_0 And the audio is going to do better.

spk_0 But again, we're back to that thing where we're being discovered.

spk_0 Um, so it's a bonus, right?

spk_0 Live is also a super bonus.

spk_0 Um, we do like feedback and we try to work that in when possible.

spk_0 But if this is a, this is a hardcore podcast roundtable,

spk_0 listener is going to actually maybe come over once in a while,

spk_0 see what we look like and quickly run away back to the audio.

spk_0 Well, and I always wonder if it's just me,

spk_0 if you're listening to an audio podcast and it's good and the host is talking to you

spk_0 and it's a great content.

spk_0 And then all of a sudden towards the end, they go, hey,

spk_0 and don't forget, be sure to like, subscribe and smash the bell.

spk_0 There's a part of me that goes, oh, they're not talking to me.

spk_0 And I don't know if that's just a Dave thing.

spk_0 But for the whole time, I thought they were talking right to me.

spk_0 And I was like, oh, I've just been listening on a YouTube thing.

spk_0 Is, is, do you guys feel that way?

spk_0 I mean, if you're saying it clearly,

spk_0 somebody's thinking it, right?

spk_0 Not just you.

spk_0 So which is important, right?

spk_0 Because again, when we're doing live, if I'm showing something like,

spk_0 oh, hey, check out this new microphone that I got, you better describe the microphone.

spk_0 You need to understand what you're doing and who your audience is.

spk_0 That you know you're going audio only at some point.

spk_0 Love your book back there, Dave.

spk_0 And if that's all I say, but like, what's the book?

spk_0 Like, give me the title.

spk_0 Like, what are you, what is he talking about, right?

spk_0 So don't make the audio only audience work for it or miss out on it.

spk_0 But so, so yeah, I mean, if you are thinking something, again,

spk_0 what is like the teacher in class always said, you know, ask,

spk_0 no, stupid questions because if you have the question, someone else does too.

spk_0 So your audience is also having those same thoughts.

spk_0 So if you have those thoughts, especially as a producer,

spk_0 that's important feedback that you just got from yourself to be conscious of in your own

spk_0 productions. There you go.

spk_0 Yeah, I think, um, Dave, you're right.

spk_0 It's an interesting point about it.

spk_0 It is a different technique when you're doing live.

spk_0 And just thinking about that, as you were saying, and I'm like, well,

spk_0 maybe that's where I failed in my attempts is that I didn't draw in enough of the comments.

spk_0 I mean, I did, but I probably could have done a better job of it.

spk_0 So upon reflection, as a few years ago, but the other point to just to reiterate is,

spk_0 it has to be the right show for it because there are so many podcasts of so many different kinds,

spk_0 some I heavily produced, some are just, you know, chats amongst friends and so on and so forth.

spk_0 And shows like causality, for example, where I just record it solo.

spk_0 I mean, that's, there's no point doing that live.

spk_0 You know, it's, I'd like to say it's all done in one take.

spk_0 Okay, it's done in a take, but there's a lot of editing anyway.

spk_0 So it's like, that's very different.

spk_0 Whereas pragmatic was the only one for me that really fit.

spk_0 And even they didn't quite fit quite so well.

spk_0 So I think if you have the right kind of show that can incorporate that life content,

spk_0 you do it well, then there's probably a place for it.

spk_0 So maybe the key question to anyone who's producing a podcast is,

spk_0 is my podcast, the right fit to even try live in the first place.

spk_0 And if it is, then have at it and see how it goes.

spk_0 I suppose.

spk_0 Yeah, that's hugely important.

spk_0 I, I've done solo shows.

spk_0 This is the first show I wouldn't have talked with that.

spk_0 I was going to say I wouldn't do that with a solo show.

spk_0 I did that.

spk_0 That's the podcast or studio started off as the whole concept was a live streamed podcast Q&A type of,

spk_0 of, of, of, of format.

spk_0 And guess what?

spk_0 When you're new, no one's there asking you questions.

spk_0 So it's just me playing bad creative comments, DJ music, making up questions or having some

spk_0 friend bringing a question.

spk_0 It didn't work.

spk_0 I got that.

spk_0 It would have worked better now.

spk_0 Sure.

spk_0 Still really hard as Dave probably knows with the, you know, his review podcast review show.

spk_0 You really have to plan for that kind of engagement, I think.

spk_0 And so, um, or, you know, build up a massive audience because again,

spk_0 such a small percentage is going to show live.

spk_0 So it really does go to, yeah, I mean,

spk_0 I saw, I did see a solo podcast make, do like a live stream of show.

spk_0 And it was very fascinating as a, like, uh, as a, well, probably because I'm, you know,

spk_0 person who produces podcasts to see the sausage being made.

spk_0 But that was a one off, right?

spk_0 You're like, I'm not going to tune into this every week, probably not, right?

spk_0 So it does, it's a very good point to pay attention to, you know, does your format fit a live format?

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 I know I had, uh, one week where my co-host, let me know, hey, we usually do 90 minutes.

spk_0 I can only stay an hour.

spk_0 I'm like, not a problem.

spk_0 And so we politely dismissed him at the appropriate time.

spk_0 And I had 30 minutes and I'm thinking, not a problem.

spk_0 At that point, the chat room will be popping along.

spk_0 I'll have topics and it's doing live solo is very strange because you're kind of

spk_0 looking for your audience to be the co-host and chime in.

spk_0 Except there's what a 30-second delay on StreamYard.

spk_0 So there's this, it's just a weird getting any kind of momentum going and you're just begging.

spk_0 I was begging people to pop in and play co-host and it was just, it was one of the things I'm like,

spk_0 okay, note to self.

spk_0 The next time Jim asked to leave early, we're shutting the show down.

spk_0 Like, hey, thanks so much for only doing 60 minutes this week.

spk_0 See you later.

spk_0 Bye.

spk_0 So.

spk_0 Effie says, I would say never in my life will I make time to listen to a live podcast in my schedule.

spk_0 Yet alas, here I am for the third time as I pull my son up and down the buildings always.

spk_0 So shout out to Effie for being a power listener.

spk_0 She loves the roundtable.

spk_0 We love her.

spk_0 So thank you so much.

spk_0 But again, your hardcore audience may tune in.

spk_0 So it really is why are you doing it?

spk_0 And we do it as it's because it's an easy way for us to record with remote people.

spk_0 You know, always talk about production and people say,

spk_0 I'll just send microphones to your guest, not on this show, other shows.

spk_0 If you are doing a regular code, if it was just Dave and I showing up every week,

spk_0 I would expect different things of Dave.

spk_0 Now, he already has those things.

spk_0 Good audio and the video looks good.

spk_0 But when you have guests who are coming in for one time only,

spk_0 this is what this platform really helps with because you have to lower the barriers to that

spk_0 entry as much as possible.

spk_0 Right?

spk_0 Obviously, I'm going to make sure that they, you know, I'm going to ask, can you wear some headphones?

spk_0 Do you have a decent microphone and we're walking through the what that is?

spk_0 But again, so this show, this live format, we're just lucky that there's a live button in

spk_0 addition to the record button and it just all works out.

spk_0 And we have, you know, we get to get the audience involved here because again,

spk_0 as I said at the top of the show, that's what this show is all about is like,

spk_0 give us your experience, right, at every level.

spk_0 So I think great point, John, about, you know, does your show sort of fit the format?

spk_0 And then is it too much work to add it?

spk_0 Really?

spk_0 And is it worth the payoff?

spk_0 Because it's...

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 It's not, there's no, I don't know how much payoff there is other than connecting with your audience,

spk_0 which is really cool, like seeing people who listen is amazing because you don't see that

spk_0 when you're doing a podcast by yourself and you're not live and you're not somewhere

spk_0 where people are interacting with you.

spk_0 I mean, obviously if you get emails and stuff,

spk_0 but it feels different in real time, right?

spk_0 So if you want to connect with that, you know, with a portion of your audience,

spk_0 it's really good for that too.

spk_0 Yeah, that's...

spk_0 Sorry, good.

spk_0 It's kind of a middle ground.

spk_0 Like when I'm up on stage giving a presentation,

spk_0 I can see how many people looking down at their phone and it can get depressing sometimes.

spk_0 You get the ones that are engaged and so on, you know, but...

spk_0 But this is somewhere in the middle, you know, so you can...

spk_0 You do get some time delayed feedback, but, you know, that's some, yeah, anyway.

spk_0 So yes, the Australian guy, hi, my name's John Chijee.

spk_0 Hello.

spk_0 Awesome.

spk_0 Thank you.

spk_0 It's all good.

spk_0 We, you know, blahb was good for actually getting the audience

spk_0 into the stream, right?

spk_0 If you wanted to bring...

spk_0 Hey, collar!

spk_0 Except the collar was on video.

spk_0 Most of the time.

spk_0 And if you were lucky, the collar didn't come in to just troll your stream.

spk_0 And rip you.

spk_0 But, um...

spk_0 Yeah, I don't know.

spk_0 There...

spk_0 It has a clubhouse in Twitter spaces.

spk_0 This is the two most recent sort of like, let's just turn this thing on and see what happens

spk_0 with a few of our friends.

spk_0 And so while I've wanted to get the content off of there, it's very difficult.

spk_0 And I think it's just the difference is production, right?

spk_0 And maybe it's in...

spk_0 It's even branding.

spk_0 Like, Twitter spaces supposed to probably be pretty casual,

spk_0 where I think clubhouse felt like it was a little more organized

spk_0 that the mission was like to have a presentation, right?

spk_0 Whereas Twitter spaces feels like, hey, press this button and go live.

spk_0 Which is, you know, like Instagram live.

spk_0 Probably no different.

spk_0 It's like, go live anytime.

spk_0 Let's do this.

spk_0 So, I just...

spk_0 I'd like to see.

spk_0 Look, if you're doing Twitter spaces, care about your audio.

spk_0 Maybe get to the point.

spk_0 It's all on time.

spk_0 I think we...

spk_0 We'll have a point.

spk_0 Have a point is very...

spk_0 Yeah, well, you know what?

spk_0 I mean, the ones that I tune into, that's how you got me.

spk_0 You got me.

spk_0 I mean, look, if you're a YouTuber, you learn very fast.

spk_0 That if you do not deliver on the title, they're gone.

spk_0 And YouTube gives you because they're a wall garden, they give you the analytics.

spk_0 And you learn real fast or you don't.

spk_0 And then you don't get many views.

spk_0 But if you're a good YouTuber because of those analytics,

spk_0 you learn real quickly that like,

spk_0 I have...

spk_0 If you got someone to click play, like,

spk_0 you are 75% of the way there.

spk_0 Like the thumbnail worked.

spk_0 The title worked.

spk_0 And then you opened up and here's what happens every time.

spk_0 Every time.

spk_0 Blah, blah, blah, two minutes.

spk_0 Let's get right into it.

spk_0 They always say, let's get right into it.

spk_0 What are you talking about, dude?

spk_0 You just didn't get right into it, can you see a pet peeve?

spk_0 So, hey, this is as a from a YouTuber to a YouTuber.

spk_0 Get to the point.

spk_0 Really quickly.

spk_0 Here's another phrase.

spk_0 But before we get to that,

spk_0 and I always want to go, if you hear yourself saying that,

spk_0 whatever comes after that phrase,

spk_0 better be really, really good stuff because your audience is like,

spk_0 hey, we're waiting for the stuff.

spk_0 And you're saying, oh, but before I get to that,

spk_0 I'm like, oh, yeah.

spk_0 Because there are times when I say that, I'm like,

spk_0 I'm breaking my own rule.

spk_0 There's all these verbal triggers.

spk_0 And this goes for podcasts too.

spk_0 When you start to say, well,

spk_0 well, it was pretty good conversation.

spk_0 Or that's probably a good place to wrap up.

spk_0 And guess what you're planning to do after that sentence.

spk_0 Well, after about like five more cents,

spk_0 you're planning to give all your calls to action.

spk_0 Hey, sign up.

spk_0 They're gone.

spk_0 Like you can see it in your analytics.

spk_0 Soon as you have any kind of verbal cue that it is over,

spk_0 that line goes straight down.

spk_0 Straight down on the graph.

spk_0 They're gone, man.

spk_0 People had stopped.

spk_0 They do the model thing where you have a little snippet

spk_0 off to the credits to keep them there.

spk_0 And I have done that as a producer.

spk_0 But like most people don't find out

spk_0 till later that they missed it.

spk_0 That's it.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 You know what?

spk_0 It's amazing.

spk_0 We did not make the shortest round table ever.

spk_0 In fact,

spk_0 the quite the opposite is could end up

spk_0 being one of the longest because what have we done?

spk_0 We've done one story.

spk_0 Now I turned the intro into a whole other story,

spk_0 which is what we do here.

spk_0 But let's actually let me look.

spk_0 So we got one of John's stories.

spk_0 Is yours more compelling?

spk_0 I mean, I, you know,

spk_0 we get this conversation about keeping the listeners here.

spk_0 It's more about

spk_0 if you're trying to get an advertiser,

spk_0 Tom Webster has a latest episode of I Hear Things.

spk_0 And in a nutshell,

spk_0 it used to be if you wanted to reach 50% of all of the podcast audience.

spk_0 You had to advertise on seven different networks

spk_0 to reach that without having any kind of.

spk_0 When you say networks, what do you mean?

spk_0 Like the I Heart's like the.

spk_0 So you mean actual like almost platform.

spk_0 Those are platforms.

spk_0 Right. Platforms.

spk_0 That's a good.

spk_0 That's a better one.

spk_0 So.

spk_0 And he said they just redid that study.

spk_0 And now you only have to advertise on four platforms to reach the entire quote

spk_0 unquote.

spk_0 50% of 50% of week.

spk_0 Yeah, I thought originally it was everybody.

spk_0 It's 50% of weekly listeners.

spk_0 And the reason for that.

spk_0 A, all these platforms keep buying the really popular shows.

spk_0 And I think it was two weeks ago.

spk_0 He mentioned that most of the growth and podcasting

spk_0 is coming from the really popular shows that are getting people to.

spk_0 Hey, you know, did you hear what so and so the celebrity said on this week's show kind of thing?

spk_0 And I just thought about it.

spk_0 I was like, well, that keeps going down.

spk_0 On one hand, I'm kind of worried about it because

spk_0 if you're not on a big network, how are you going to get advertising?

spk_0 So I understand that thought.

spk_0 But I also say, yeah, but they're also not pulling in super niche shows.

spk_0 They're bringing in celebrity shows and things like that.

spk_0 And I have a niche show.

spk_0 I do a podcast about podcasting.

spk_0 And yet I can still get sponsors.

spk_0 Now, I don't have enough downloads to quit my day job and nettle nine yards.

spk_0 But I just thought it was interesting that

spk_0 the networks are getting bigger and the shows on the networks are getting more listeners.

spk_0 So if you're into advertising and you have a show that's everything for everybody,

spk_0 you know, you have a niche down a bit, that might be a little

spk_0 harder road to go down.

spk_0 If you're thinking, oh, I'm going to start a podcast and get advertising.

spk_0 And it's like, that's never really worked, you know, for 90% of podcasters.

spk_0 But based on that particular report, it's not going to get better apparently.

spk_0 Well, there's, I mean, there's two things there, right?

spk_0 If you're an advertiser saying, should I get in the podcast, what are you advertising?

spk_0 Right? If you're advertising soda, you have to get across those, the mass audience, right?

spk_0 But if you're advertising, like, I don't know, I'm trying to think of something very niche, right?

spk_0 If you're advertising, oh, what's that?

spk_0 Bell buckles, I don't know.

spk_0 Bell buckles, right? There's probably, there's a lot of, yeah, there's a lot of, I won't

spk_0 get to and be more successful with your money.

spk_0 So, and as a podcaster who is looking for advertising, I think a lot of people would see

spk_0 its dad and be very disappointed, right? But look, most of you who listen to this,

spk_0 you're probably indie podcasters, which is like, I would categorize as sub 1000 to,

spk_0 I don't know, sub around the 1000 range listeners, right?

spk_0 Like, real come back every week type listeners.

spk_0 Those aren't the advertising you want. You're not making money with that.

spk_0 Like, that's Google banner ads on your blog. It's intrusive to your audience for a few pennies.

spk_0 The advertising you want is the, Bell buckle guy, right? Like, who you have a show about,

spk_0 you know, I don't know, country, western, wear or something. And like, like, 90% of your audience,

spk_0 where's a buckle, Bell buckle? And you know what I'm saying? It's like, there's an advertiser for you.

spk_0 That's not the one. You don't want the soda people. You want something that fits your audience.

spk_0 So like, I get it. What it says to me also too is like, if you listen to this show,

spk_0 I could probably pull up your podcast app and also find maybe like five other shows and one of

spk_0 them is a top 10 show, right? So that like, people who listen to podcasts also listen to like a show

spk_0 that gets a lot of reach because like you said, a lot of times that's people's entry point into

spk_0 podcasting, right? And then if they're lucky, they dive off and they find something very specific for

spk_0 them, right? But. Well, and that was one of Tom's points. It's like, if, you know, the smaller shows

spk_0 want advertising and that in itself, there are some people like, I don't want to add them. I'm

spk_0 just doing this for fun. Most don't want. But he was saying, if you want any kind of advertising

spk_0 the future, you're going to have to learn how to work together. And to me, networks, I am not

spk_0 sold on the concept of a network. But somehow you're going to have to tie yourself together to say,

spk_0 okay, I've got six shows. We all talk about the same thing. Mr. Neat sponsor, you won't work with

spk_0 2000 downloads, but will you work with 10 now that I've got five shows kind of thing? So

spk_0 which I agree. I mean, obviously more downloads makes it much easier to get a sponsor. But,

spk_0 hey, I'm not sure everybody sold on getting a sponsor. And I don't know that's

spk_0 networks. I've just, I had a network this week where basically, well, I've said this before,

spk_0 Ernie and Bert started podcasts because they've known each other forever. You know, three years later,

spk_0 they don't talk to each other. And, you know, it's Bert locked Ernie out of the account, deleted all

spk_0 the files. It's just not pretty. So be careful if you're going to, you know, team up with another

spk_0 podcast. It makes me think it's ugly. It makes me want to ask John, the someone who I think said

spk_0 has had a lot of podcasts or either runs sort of a network like it started out that way, right?

spk_0 It started out where I had some other people that were signing up to produce content as well. And

spk_0 they would get a split of the of the ad revenue back in 2015. But it's very quickly that I wanted

spk_0 to get engineers on the podcast space. I wanted more engineers like genuine, out there in the

spk_0 field mechanical process engineers, chemical engineers and so on. Well, it turns out they're making

spk_0 a heck of a lot more money doing their day job. So it's a really, really sold on giving up their

spk_0 personal time to give away, essentially, their knowledge for what is a disproportionate amount of

spk_0 money. The ultimate conclusion was it wasn't worth it for them for their time. So I, it started

spk_0 out more as a network with that. And then over time, it just ended up being me, which is why I

spk_0 keep every time I look at engineering network as a title, I stuck the brand, I started with a branding,

spk_0 but it reminds me a lot of 70 decibels back when it was all just my early kind of thing. And

spk_0 I feel much the same kind of way as Mike did at the time. So, but so that that was an interesting

spk_0 experience. Again, a hard lesson. But for me, what I struggled with early on is I did have,

spk_0 Mike, Greg Manning 14 was really taken off. I was getting sponsors really easily, like big,

spk_0 big name sponsors and so on. Well, I call the big name sponsors. But like my experience,

spk_0 particularly with Squarespace is that their their cutoff level, their threshold is kept going up

spk_0 and up and up. So I started out at like 5,000 downloads in a third day period. And then six months,

spk_0 seven months later, I went back and it was up to 25,000. And it's gone up again since then. So

spk_0 they won't even talk to you if you're like a, if you're not above that minimum threshold. And a lot

spk_0 of the costs, a lot of the advertisers, you know, they want to know that their investment is going

spk_0 to get a return. So they they equate more downloads to more ears and hence, you know, I better return,

spk_0 you watch your conversion rates and so on and so forth, which is fine because that's their business.

spk_0 They're advertising. They want to see a reaction, a response and a return on their investment,

spk_0 which I understand. But the part that was difficult for me to learn initially is that the difference

spk_0 between an advertiser and a sponsor, whereas a sponsor is more interested in just brand recognition,

spk_0 getting their name in there out there and they're not so concerned about getting massive return

spk_0 on it. But they tend to stand by you for longer. And those sorts of sponsors are gold. And,

spk_0 and yeah, so I had a long running sponsor in many tricks and they continue to sponsor the show up

spk_0 until very recently, where I kind of made a bit of a decision and nothing of do with any of the

spk_0 sponsors or advertisers. But I just decided that I was getting enough money from Patreon support

spk_0 as well as from Apple channel podcast subscription that I didn't really need to be bothering with

spk_0 sponsors. And so I kind of I found that nation. I built that audience. But that took seven, eight

spk_0 years of continuing to create content. It didn't happen overnight. And that kind of let me down the

spk_0 road of well, I guess there's there's different flavors of advertising and sponsors. And, and if you

spk_0 want to make money from your podcast, it's certainly in my niche anyway, is the niche method with

spk_0 premium supporters that that want to just encourage you to keep making the content. But that was my

spk_0 experience anyway, certainly your mileage may vary. But you sure it wasn't seven days or seven months

spk_0 or seven years. I say that to everybody that's like the the norm that I hear. And, and there

spk_0 definitely cases like John's where it's longer on occasion. I'll run to people who are shorter.

spk_0 But I actually tell people three years, like minimum, if you're starting from zero, you know,

spk_0 if you've got somebody else, maybe not as long, but it takes a while. How do you like the the

spk_0 iTunes subscription? You're the only person that I'm doing that keyed in on that too. And I was

spk_0 like, he is the first I've heard say anything about it. Well, okay. I did a couple of articles on my

spk_0 my blog. I have another blog tech distortion.com. And I did blog on my experiences. But just the

spk_0 summary high level summary is I got on the platform and it took me a long time to get in when they

spk_0 first announced it. I imported the audio in a way that was not the way they intended it to be used.

spk_0 So I ended up having to scrub it all and start over once it was actually out because I couldn't

spk_0 be to test it. And so once I got a beta tested, it's just it's just another destination. The things

spk_0 I do like about it is that it makes it very easy for people to subscribe and support that way.

spk_0 But that's pretty much where it ends. I mean, it's an apple interface. So it's kind of nice and

spk_0 pretty and lovely and all that. And that's great. You know, not a negative, but the negatives for me

spk_0 are you have no idea who your listeners are. There's no way for them to really give you any feedback.

spk_0 You can't get in touch with them. And on the technical level, you have to upload a stereo wave

spk_0 file. I mean, I've been producing podcasts in 96 kilobit mono for forever, less than that in

spk_0 some cases, you know, for bandwidth constrained people. And having upload a uncompressed wave in

spk_0 stereo, which is really just the same channel duplicate, election right. And of course, as a wave,

spk_0 you can't have embedded chapters. You can't you can't have anything. It's and then I apply the

spk_0 DRM to it. And that can take hours. Like I've uploaded a way file was like 1.4 gig or something like

spk_0 which is not hard to do an hour and a half show, right. Right. Yeah. And I hit refresh refresh.

spk_0 It says processing audio. And I'm like, yeah, but like it's that was you're still going. Okay.

spk_0 How much I don't even know how much compute resources they're throwing at this thing, but it can't be

spk_0 much. I don't know. So it's been okay. I'm probably getting about 10 to 15% of my overall

spk_0 podcast income from that space, but that's taken a year to build up. And it took a while to get

spk_0 started. So yeah. Do you know what any if you say, David, rather not answer that, that's fine.

spk_0 Do you know what percentage of your total downloads has now gone to premium?

spk_0 That's a great question. I do not. No. For causalities, the only show I'm really tracking

spk_0 downloads on. And and even that off the top of my head, I couldn't tell you. No, it's a good question.

spk_0 I'm sorry. I wish I did. My guess is going to be 3% probably because the the one that still blows

spk_0 me away is I was listening to radio lab and radio lab has a gazillion people listening to it.

spk_0 I mean, it's this great science show and the whole nine yards. And they did kind of a PBS thing

spk_0 where they're like, Hey, we're raising money. We've got to do this. And you know, we have a big team

spk_0 and we're jetting all over the country to to make these things for you. And if you'd like to support

spk_0 the show, you know, you could for just, you know, 13 dollars a month, you can feed a small child

spk_0 or whatever their pitch was. And they said, we're trying to get up to 1% and I was like, wait a

spk_0 minute. This is a show that when you say radio lab, if you're in front of a listener, they're like,

spk_0 Oh my God, I love that show. And they're trying to get up to 1%. I was like, wow, that's that's

spk_0 a lot of money though. I mean, there's two sides to it. It's like that's a 1% of their

spk_0 audiences. I'll take it. Yeah. Right. But why are they having so much trouble converting a

spk_0 rabid audience, right? Into premium. It just tells you it's really tough. Like these are these

spk_0 high threshold events that I'm telling you are really hard feedback live, like premium, very

spk_0 hard, right? And you might not need much to convert. But if you're motivated by any of those,

spk_0 you probably starting off in the wrong place. You have to be motivated by the content.

spk_0 You just have to. Creating daily said I was able to get 10,000 K sponsor with 400 total downloads

spk_0 on my saltwater fishing show. Got to frame the sales pitch correctly. Quality over quantity

spk_0 works with big and small brands. And so, you know, my only question is, did that deliver? Right?

spk_0 Like there's also the scary thing of over, you know, of pitching and then the advertisers like,

spk_0 we didn't get any conversions from that were to go on. Right? So you got a lot of money one time

spk_0 and he probably did. I mean, this is a saltwater fishing show, right? Very targeted. Right? If you're

spk_0 selling saltwater fishing boats, one sale and that that that advertisers were very happy, right?

spk_0 I'm coming back. Right? If you're selling rods, some of those are very expensive, but maybe

spk_0 you have to sell a lot more. Right? So it all goes back. We keep talking about like, what's the fit

spk_0 for your audience? What's the style of your show? Like it's it's all a personalized fit. And so,

spk_0 you know, if you need a personalized fit here, if you want to get links in real time, this is it.

spk_0 This is the shout out I do to tune into the live and the video before I start saying this is the

spk_0 end. I'm putting it right here. Dave puts links to all this great stuff, even stuff links that you

spk_0 might not get when you go to the show notes at podcastaroundtable.com. Dave puts them in the chat.

spk_0 I mean, this is what co-hosts do to the poor you. That's a whole other question. Host co-hosts,

spk_0 we won't go in that. We'll save that. We've done that before. But I'm just saying podcastaroundtable.com

spk_0 slash live. Check us out. They signed, let's see, creating says, yeah, they signed 52 weeks this

spk_0 year. So, hey, right, right advertiser, right audience, it works. So we'll have to get

spk_0 creating daily here, which is like, you know what? That must be the YouTube channel. I don't know.

spk_0 podcastaroundtable.com slash guest. Crake daily. Come on. We'll talk to you. I mean,

spk_0 generally we do like you to have a podcast, but it sounds like you do have one. I assume that's

spk_0 not just like a YouTube show. Maybe you're calling that a podcast. Oh, that's fun stuff because we

spk_0 deal with that too. So definitely sign up and that obviously, and obviously it applies to everyone

spk_0 who's listening. Do we want to hit that last story? Can we do it? Look, if you're live,

spk_0 you're free to go. This is the rule of what's the conference, Dave, where the rule was a

spk_0 not word camp pod camp pod camp, which was the rule was like, you can feel comfortable, get up and leave.

spk_0 Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Because I'll tell you what, as a presenter, it's weird to get someone to see

spk_0 John, you talk about presenting. So when gets up and leaves in the middle of your

spk_0 middle of your talk, it feels very much like a vote of confidence in your presentation.

spk_0 But when you go into it, understanding, hey, I just want to check in and don't be offended. So

spk_0 the presenter knows the audience knows because even on audience, I'm like, I want to stay because

spk_0 I don't want them to feel like that. Right? So I'm apparently I'm too sensitive. But so if you're

spk_0 live, bail out, we're going to we're going to attack this one story. We went from shortest to

spk_0 longest round table ever. Let's do this. That's John's story. What do we got? Okay. So this is also

spk_0 sort of about the whole Spotify situation. And I find it interesting. I have a point of personal

spk_0 interest with with audio books and particularly this one. So this is Spotify's latest purchases.

spk_0 You know, is that they've acquired a findaway voices and findaway voices is an audio book production

spk_0 platform service. What do you want to call it? So if you want to create an audio book, you go to

spk_0 them and you say, you know, who have you got and look at the rates, listen to do an audition.

spk_0 And then, you know, as a as an audio book producer, then I can like record that and so on. And they

spk_0 handle all the payments and all that sort of stuff. But then it goes out to any pretty much every

spk_0 platform you can imagine. So whether that's audible, you know, whether that's Apple books, I forget

spk_0 what they call it. Now I think it is just books. But in any case, it goes out to the Kindle store,

spk_0 all that. And honestly, because I've done two audio books via that service. So my ears sort of

spk_0 pricked up when Spotify bought them. And I'm like, okay, so it's it's a clear part of their play

spk_0 that an audio book is a very highly produced podcast of a certain kind of podcast, I should say.

spk_0 It's kind of funny because I was thinking about this the other day with causality because

spk_0 causality is heavily scripted. But it's not a book. I could turn it into a book and then call it

spk_0 an audio book if I wanted to rather than a podcast. But the line is very different. But of course,

spk_0 you know, then you've also got nonfiction books and fiction books and, you know, someone reading

spk_0 Harry Potter is very different from me doing episode of causality. But anyway, so what I found

spk_0 interesting about this was because Spotify is just it's just taking the next slice and the next slice

spk_0 and the next slice. If it's audio, they want to play in that space. And I'm not entirely sure that's

spk_0 a good thing in the long term because I mean, my experience with Final Way was great because you

spk_0 get on any platform. But are they going to start locking that down and say, no, now Spotify

spk_0 exclusive kind of, you know, I that that's my concern and longer term. And I definitely think

spk_0 that's a valid concern because everything I've seen from Spotify is we're buying all these tools

spk_0 and, you know, I feel like I'm at a pink Floyd concert. They're just putting up another brick in

spk_0 the wall and they're building it up to where eventually it's like, well, I do mean I just in

spk_0 Nashville, I was at this thing called the Gaylord Hotel. And it was literally like five hotels

spk_0 that they just stitched together. They're like seven different restaurants and at the whole point

spk_0 of it is you don't have to leave. You can just stay here and keep spending your money right here.

spk_0 I mean, they had a boat ride in the middle of the hotel. I mean, it was huge. And I think that's

spk_0 what Spotify is looking for. They want to have a boat ride in the middle of their app. It's so big.

spk_0 And I mean, I don't blame them. I just I'm with what John is saying. It's like, wait, I I like the

spk_0 service before because it did this. And then it got acquired. And now, oh, it doesn't do what

spk_0 it used to do. And, you know, which just means somebody else has to step into that spot where they

spk_0 were and say, Hey, remember those guys, how these to do this? We do that now. So it'll be

spk_0 interesting to watch. I haven't actually seen Spotify push on the actual. It's only just

spk_0 having recently in the last few months. So it's one of those watch this space. And right now they

spk_0 haven't called the pin on other platforms. It's business is usual. But of course, that tends to be

spk_0 the way these things go is I'll do BAU for the next six months, 12 months, and then suddenly the

spk_0 hammer falls. And it's like, yeah, you know, how we used to go to output to Apple books store, not

spk_0 anymore. Sorry. Go somewhere else kind of thing. So we'll wait and see. But I'm yeah, I think you

spk_0 share my concern with that Dave. So yeah. Well, and also does that mean I'm going to have to listen

spk_0 to your book in Spotify because I have a whole library in audible. And I've got my, you know,

spk_0 again, I've got my favorite audio book app, you know, be interesting to see how they do that. And

spk_0 should be interesting. Yeah. Well, they tried to move YouTube viewers over to Spotify. I don't know

spk_0 that that worked out very well. Right. I mean, podcast listeners a little easier, right? Even though

spk_0 like I'm going to have two apps, right? I mean, it's not, it's not easy, but it must be nice to

spk_0 have a ton of money to sort of throw at the wall. Let's see what sticks because I think that's

spk_0 like Google who tries a lot of things that we like, but not enough people like them or not

spk_0 enough people use them. They might like them. And then they go away. And there's always that

spk_0 slightly cynical voice in my head being an old musician that I go, yeah, don't forget that,

spk_0 you know, behind the scenes, a lot of people that are pulling the strings are, you know,

spk_0 record labels and such that have worked a deal with Spotify and I'm like, record labels, not

spk_0 really known for treating their customers or fellow employees. If you want to call a musician

spk_0 employee, I'm like, yeah. So I hate to, I don't know, judge the, how's that go? Judge the child by

spk_0 the parent or whatever, but I'm like, we'll see how this works out. So awesome. Well, I,

spk_0 you know, I didn't do the thing where I said earlier, where I should have asked the guest. Can

spk_0 you stay a little longer? I said, I, excuse the audience. Everyone, you can go, but I kept John

spk_0 here, you know, his morning is, he's just started his morning. He's probably has like a whole

spk_0 list of things to do. Dave and I are like, Dave's definitely in the night. I'm winding down to the

spk_0 night. But so I want to say thank you, John, for hanging out with us a little extra longer. And,

spk_0 you know, that's a good sign when we go along. It just meant that, you know, you did a really good

spk_0 job and we enjoyed the conversation. So once around table or always around table, we'll have you

spk_0 back on anytime. Why don't you let us know where we can find, I guess one podcast or, you know,

spk_0 like me, I have stuff. Yeah. I have the one website that takes it all the things, which I assume you

spk_0 do too. So thanks again. Yeah. Well, no worries. Thanks for having me. It's been fantastic.

spk_0 If people are looking for my work on the engineer network, it's at engineer.network. Just go to that

spk_0 full network, not like dotnet. Some people get that. But yeah, so engineer.network and you'll find

spk_0 all the shows that I make the ones I make most regularly are causality and pragmatic. And if you're

spk_0 into Twitter, I'm also at John Chigee on Twitter. And if you're into the Thetaverse, it's at

spk_0 Chigee at engineer.spice. Awesome. And we'll link it up in the show notes podcast around table.com.

spk_0 Do you have engineer.net? I doubt it because that's probably crazy. Yeah. Yeah. That was, that was,

spk_0 yeah. Because there's always that trick, right? You're like, the thing that people tend to do

spk_0 sometimes, it's good to have them. But it is hard to do that in the domain space because

spk_0 Dave owns them all. I mean, he could probably buy it from Dave. I do own a few. Yes. He has a

spk_0 quite a problem there. They're on the bookshelf. I can see him. I see all your domain, Dave,

spk_0 they're hanging out and put those away, buddy. It's not a flex. Awesome. Hey, Dave Jackson,

spk_0 cohost. Thanks for coming back. Yeah. Always fun. Race said this earlier. It's always, you know,

spk_0 at the end of these, you always like, oh, that's why we do this. This was a lot of fun. It's always

spk_0 great hanging out. Thanks to the chat room. You can find me, Dave Jackson's school of podcasting.com.

spk_0 Yes, Dan, better late than never. Dan Powers in the chat showing up at the end. You know,

spk_0 the beauty is that we are time shifted. And I am recording this unlike Twitter spaces that

spk_0 sometimes don't get recorded, which just feels very, it's either incompetence or they just,

spk_0 they're just messing with you. Guess what? I'm not, you made me mad. I'm not showing up the next one.

spk_0 So, all right. But Dan will still be here. So you can listen to the whole thing. All right,

spk_0 everyone. Thank you so much. Podcasts around table.com slash guest. Sign up up here on the round table.

spk_0 Or just, you know, find us on YouTube. Podcasts around table.com YouTube.com slash podcast

spk_0 around table. I probably indicated that we were stopping. So no one's hearing that. If we, if we,

spk_0 if they're gone, so it's okay. I could probably like, I could probably say a lot of things right now

spk_0 that no one will ever hear. But thank you. If you're here, you are the power listener. And we

spk_0 appreciate you. We've goodbye. We're out here.

Podcasters Don't Care About Live-Streaming

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