Culture
From art burnout to balance
In this episode of Fail Like An Artist, hosts Julie Battisti and Phoebe Ganza explore the challenges of artistic burnout and the journey back to creative balance. They share personal anecdotes about t...
From art burnout to balance
Culture •
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Interactive Transcript
Speaker A
Recording.
Speaker B
Hi, you're listening to Fail Like An Artist with your hosts, Julie Battisti and me, Phoebe Ganza.
Speaker A
A podcast discussing all the ways we've failed as artists with insight, advice, and humor.
Speaker B
Each episode, we will discuss a failure and what we've learned from it. Hey, Phoebe. Oh, do I start with Howdy Doody? I've forgotten.
Speaker A
We've forgotten all of the things.
Speaker B
It's been too long.
Speaker A
All right, start again. Okay.
Speaker B
Howdy Doody.
Speaker A
Howdy Doody. Julie.
Speaker B
How you doing?
Speaker A
I'm good. I'm all the better for seeing you.
Speaker B
Been a minute.
Speaker A
So long. Did I even have short hair when we last chatted?
Speaker B
I. I don't remember.
Speaker A
I did, probably. Yeah. It's. It's been ages. It's really nice to see you. It's funny because, you know, if you chat on the phone or you chat on text and stuff, but you still don't see each other's faces. And so it was nice to have you on my screen in front of me.
Speaker B
I think. We've only had two phone conversations in the last six months, and both times I feel like we were so excited. I had to tell myself before we sat down tonight, just make sure you talk slowly, because I think sometimes we both start amping each other up when we haven't spoken for a while.
Speaker A
It's either that or, like, me bawling my eyes out. Yeah, it really has. And you and. And. And it's not just you. Like, that's been me with everyone in my life that. That's not in my immediately related family. Yeah, it's just been really, really hard to keep in touch. Like, I've had to make such an effort to remember to, like, even just text people and message people this year. So, yeah, I really look forward to, like, being able to tee this up because we have. Even though, like, we have only recorded one. That one episode in March, and we kind of thought, oh, we'll definitely be able to squeeze another one in. And now it's like, what checks notes halfway through July? It's. I had a point then, but I've gotten it.
Speaker B
It's been a while.
Speaker A
Oh, I think that was it. We tried a couple of times to record, but it didn't work with either illness on my end or builders on your end or another illness on your end with kids and stuff. So, like, even when with all the good intentions, we've gone, let's try to do this. It's like there's still other things beyond even the work and the study and stuff. Have got in the way. So, yeah, I was sort of like really excited to think that tonight the stars did seem to be aligning, that we could finally sit down and chat on that.
Speaker B
Actually, we kept saying the audio on both of our parts is going to probably be a little bit echoey. And there just wasn't much we could do about that. Tonight it was this or nothing and we decided we'd just go with this.
Speaker A
So we're not sat in our usual podcasting zone in the special room with the padded walls? No, we both sat in rooms that are quite bigger, big and echoey. So, yeah, apologies for the audio, but hopefully we'll be able to have a nice chat and it will be something that we can put out to the world.
Speaker B
Anyway, I was pretty stoked to see that you'd gotten out to your studio this week amongst the last six months of study. How's it all been going?
Speaker A
Yeah. Yes. So it's the school holidays here and we have like a two week break in the winter and I really, really knew that I needed to like, carve out some time and go into the studio because as much as I thought I might be able to do that more often this year, I really haven't had much time. The odd sort of couple of hours here and there at weekends, but nowhere near as much as I was used to or kind of needed. So, yeah, this, this holidays I've managed to kind of tee up some play dates and things for the kids and even at the weekend, like just get my husband to get them out and also just doing a bit at the kitchen table as well whilst they played and just sort of entertained themselves and I was just like, mummy's busy, don't disturb me.
Speaker B
I need this for my sanity.
Speaker A
This is Mummy's poem. Yeah. So sorry. I had to reframe my expectation about what I could achieve and like, what, what art making, what's going to be in terms of how satisfied I was going to have that experience and, and what the outcome. And so that's. It's been one of those things that's taken me probably till about now to come to terms with that. I'm not going to be sitting down in my studio for an entire day painting a still life. Like, that's just not going to happen. So I have to make peace with that and like, let that go. And so I kind of got inspired by older work of mine actually. So, yeah, I went sort of through my Instagram and just kind of scrolled through to just kind of remind my. Because I suddenly sort of had this sort like, weird imposter of, like, I don't feel like an artist, you know, and even though I'm one of the first people to say, like, you're still an artist, if you don't create art all the time, and you don't need to make art every day to be an artist, like, you can say it as much as you want to say it and you. And you can bang that drum, but when you're sitting in a state of not creating art for quite a long period of time, there's a voice in your head that does, like, speak up and sort of go, are you an artist? Can you paint? Are you any good? And I don't know if that's just me or if lots of people get that.
Speaker B
I reckon that's really common. I do that even after going away for a week. I'm like, how do I do this? Who am I? Where do I start?
Speaker A
Like, tonight, when I was like, I don't know what the program's called that we record on, where you plug the cleats, what settings, and that's for me. But imagine that basically, for seven months, it just felt like an extraordinary long amount of time away from. I mean, like I said, I have done little pockets of it here and there, but if I totted up all the hours in comparison to last year, when I was doing five days a week in the studio to now, I wouldn't even have a full day. So in those seven months, and so I did really sort of start to have this, like, almost like it wasn't real. It felt like my previous life was just kind of not real and. And not like a dream that I'd had or something. And I was like. And it took me to sort of scroll through my phone at my photos and to be like, oh, yeah, I painted that. Like, that's quite good, actually. Quite like that. I can't remember. I can't remember how I did that. And then I thought, well, I'm not going to try a still life because they look like they take a long time. So I scrolled right back to when I was doing some abstract landscapes. And then I saw, you know, I even started watching some reels and things that I'd done. And then I was like, oh, yeah, I remember those. I remember I like those. And they're. They were fun and maybe people would like those again. And then, you know, I did that project over the summer with the jelly plate printing, and so I thought, oh, I could sort of combine the Two things together. And then I just started getting overwhelmed because then I could do this and then I could do that, and then. And I thought. And then I sort of went to paralysis mode, you know, when you've got too many ideas. So I actually just chucked a story up on my Instagram and just said, like, vote, help me decide. Because I literally was like, I kind of want to do all of them. I want to try. I don't know which to do and. But I would enjoy any of them. So I don't really mind which way the vote goes, but I just need someone to tell me because I can't make that decision. And the abstract landscapes won by quite a long stretch, so I was like, oh, I'll go with that. And so, yeah, so then I. I've got a little collection together that I even managed to get up on my website, kind of, which is the beauty of having apps on your phone, because you can kind of sit and do little bits here and there, like, whilst kids are playing, whilst, you know, and it took me a whole day to do that, which, you know, was a task that in the past, you sit at a laptop by yourself, you probably do in two hours. But it felt like a real achievement to get to that point and have those listed and then even write a substack newsletter, which I hadn't done since October. And I felt again, quite in a state of paralysis about that as well, because, I don't know, it's like once you've leave something for ages, then to return to it, it sort of feels a bit like going, hello and back, you know, like. Because if you haven't, like, said Chip to way it, like, hi, here, me again. It's like this. It feels like it needs to be this massive thing and it's really hard to kind of. And it's not like, nobody is. Nobody cares. Like, no, everyone. No one's going, oh, another week. And no email from people. Like, nobody's thinking that, are they? They're not. It's like when you look at Instagram, people put a post up, like, I'm so sorry, I haven't posted in seven months. And you're like, didn't, couldn't. Didn't even notice. Sorry. Just thought the algorithm had got rid of you. People don't care. But to you, it feels like a big deal. That's the whole thing that's wild about social media and all this stuff. It always feels like a big deal to you, but it really isn't to the rest of the world. Who are just living their life. So once I rip that band aid off and written that substick and put it out in the world and I was like, oh, that feels like an achievement. And I feel, I feel like I've dipped my toe back into the kind of I'm an artist hat, you know, like sort of sense of being, which. Which felt nice. Sorry, it was quite a long monologue.
Speaker B
I didn't think that would have changed. It was beautiful to see those, you know, the same sensibilities come out, though. Like, I loved seeing the little sun in your jelly plates. I'm always surprised. Much complexity you're able to get into them. Like, they're so beautiful. They're such a. Yeah, no, gorgeous work. It did.
Speaker A
They did take me a while to do each of those. But that's the beauty of the, the jelly plate. And I think someone said to me the same thing, like a message of, like, how did you. Excuse me, how did you do that on a jelly plate? You know, like, I've used a jelly plate and it's really messy and it's really hard to get neat results. And it's so weird because in real life I am like such a messy, messy person. But with my art, I always have this element of like, neatness and perfectionism that I want to bring out. But I think it goes back to my, my screen printing days. So. Because I did a, you know, three year degree in textile design and my major was screen printing. Everything with a screen is like crisp and clean and what you work in layers. So you, you know, you build it up by overlapping colors and shapes and things to get the final print. And so that's just sort of. I think that must. Even though I have never really done anything with my textile design degree from that point on, I think that process of making textile design prints in that way has just become so ingrained in me that that's how I see making art with a jelly plate. I can't sort of do it any other way because so I had, you know, like these, I think 15 or so pieces on the go. And I would just do one layer and then while that one was drying, I'd do the next piece and I'd do a layer and then I'd do them. And then by the time it came, you know, they rotated back and I would start on number one again and do another layer on that and then number two. So that's how I do it. I don't sort of do one in one go. It's like a process like printmaking process.
Speaker B
Yeah. Your brain must be able just to work in that way to be able to see the final result and build up to it.
Speaker A
I find it, you have to reverse engineer it. And I think that's something that only suits a certain type of artist. Probably, like, you have to have. There is an element of, like, change that happens and an element of, like an idea. I don't have a really fixed idea. Like, I have an idea of what I would like it to turn out like. And sometimes it takes a left turn and sometimes it doesn't work all. But mostly it ends up somewhere near what I imagine it to be because of that reverse engineering process of like going, this is the final layer. So what do I need to do for the first layer?
Speaker B
I would have to draw myself a pretty complicated diagram to make that work. I couldn't do it in my. I couldn't keep all of those elements in my head at once. You know how. It's really interesting just how that. How that is and a process that happens that you can unfold without having it written down.
Speaker A
Whereas I couldn't write it down. Like, I. Yeah. When I look at your big piece, at this piece, especially that really, like, mural size one that you're doing, that's like, I don't know, unfathomably to me, big again. I just, like, there's like, how would I tackle that? I have no idea. Because it's just so big. I don't like, you know, it's like, how has Julie got in her head? Like, where she's. What she's doing next and what bit she's done and what bits she hasn't done. Like, have you got, like a little chart? Like a. I wouldn't be surprised actually, if you had a small little chart with like your days.
Speaker B
It's just a bigger version of a grid. Right. So I just work top to bottom, left to right. And at one stage, it's. It gets to a point where I have to flip the canvas because I can't reach it.
Speaker A
That seems. And that's such a logical way of working. Top to bottom, left to right. That's such a Julie way. I love that.
Speaker B
Well, I only do it that way so I don't get paint all over my hand.
Speaker A
Oh, true.
Speaker B
Because it means the bottom right hand. You'd be proud of me. Actually. I used your. I made my own Mahl stick using the Phoebe method of just like taping some shit to the end of a stick.
Speaker A
Wow. I am proud of you.
Speaker B
It works so well because I needed to paint over some areas with smaller paintings.
Speaker A
I can't. Believe me, the novice oil painter who's been oil painting for, like, six months, has taught Julie, the oil painter of 20 years, a technique that she's actually using. She's just fine.
Speaker B
I'd always been too lazy, and I thought I'd have to buy one. And I was, like, doing all of this research and I was like, why don't I just tape some stuff to a stick? I don't need a proper mile stick. I rarely use them. I know. It's brilliant. I love it.
Speaker A
There you go, Candy. Teach an old dog new tricks. So, anyway, enough about me waffling. How have you been? You have been very busy. You have a new. A new love interest. That's not me. I'm fine with. It's fine.
Speaker B
I had thought about saying I'm just auditioning your replacement, but I thought it might cut a bit too much.
Speaker A
No, that. You know, read the room. Not ready.
Speaker B
I'll make that joke in another year.
Speaker A
Yeah, maybe give it a year. But still, I've still got six months to go, Julie. Or five. Five months ago. So.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
Do you want to speak a bit about that?
Speaker B
I feel like I'm talking to my wife about my lover.
Speaker A
Yeah. How's it going? How's that. How's that going for you right now?
Speaker B
Just give me a minute to stop nervously laughing and it's fine.
Speaker A
We can be. What's the word? Poly. Poly.
Speaker B
Polyamorous.
Speaker A
Yeah, that one. Or you can. I clearly don't have time.
Speaker B
Okay. All right. I put my serious pants on.
Speaker A
Sorry.
Speaker B
It was interesting because I was talking to someone the other day. For anyone that's not following along and they just think I'm cheating on you with other friends.
Speaker A
No.
Speaker B
I started another podcast called the Creative Kind of. And it's a very different beast to this. And what I was saying to someone the other day that I thought would be interesting is that I've never really reflected on my own practice the way that we have on this show. And that, to me, has been really interesting. And I think I've learned a lot about how and why I do things and some of the things that I haven't thought about, and it is making me want to better myself and my practice in the ways that it brings up things for me. Like, a lot of what I hear from myself is that lack of confidence still. Like, we'll talk about something. And I'm always almost apologizing for taking up space in an area, and I see it in a lot of ways, I'm a very apologetic person. I'm always worried about. I overthink everything. We'll put it that way. It doesn't always come natural to me to sit back and look at what I've done. I sort of just keep plowing forwards. I feel like that has been the detriment for me being a planner and someone that's always looking ahead is I rarely take the time to sit back and look inwards. And that to me has been a lot of what just chatting between you and I has done. It's been almost like a check in with a mentor where we talk and someone prods me to actually think about the things that are making me tick.
Speaker A
Like an arm therapist.
Speaker B
We should really rename this to art therapy or something like that, or, you know, unqualified art therapy. Whereas, because I've been talking to other artists and very much more in a listening role, like I feel like I'm still learning and honing my skills as an interviewer where I can sort of hopefully turn it into more of a conversation. But looking outwards more and learning from others and talking to people that are in totally different fields to me or that are approaching art in a different way or that are working independently or even other artists who are doing similar things to me with similar galleries. I feel like it's making me. But I'm learning a lot in a different way, like looking at what other people doing what they've, you know, listening to their journeys. And so that's been really interesting and insightful in a whole different way, if that makes sense.
Speaker A
Yeah, that's. Well, that's good. I mean, it would be, it would be kind of pointless if. Well, not pointless, but it wouldn't be as, I guess, effective thing for you to do something that way. You got the same out of it. Yeah. As this one. Well, if you did, then you wouldn't need me ever again. That would be sad. And I really wouldn't divorce you.
Speaker B
No, it does it to me. It feels very different and I've been really happy for it to feel and look different. That was my aim. I didn't, wasn't looking to recreate this. And I feel like this is an area where, where I have a voice to talk about my practice and that is an area where I talk to other people about what's going on in their world. So that's been super interesting and really lovely. And for me it sort of broadened my horizons a little bit just in terms of the people that I'm able to talk to in a day because otherwise my world has been quite small this year. There's been a lot of stuff with family and kids, which has been fantastic, and I have definitely been embracing that a little bit more. And so sometimes when your home life gets a little bit smaller, it's nice to have those avenues to connect in a different way.
Speaker A
Oh, totally. Yeah. I mean, I even relate to that in terms of the study I'm doing. My world honestly does feel like all I do is sit at this computer, this exact seat right now, and. And work apart from when I'm on practicum at the school. But I managed to kind of reach out and make friends with another creative lady on the course who's also. She's a bridal wear designer, actually. But, you know, still in a creative field.
Speaker B
Who's cheating on who here? And you create friends.
Speaker A
I was like, I need a friend who's actually doing the same thing. And I saw that she was in a studio, like, I could on zoom, you know, like, when you. With people. And then we ended up in some group together at one point, and she sort of mentioned a studio, and I was like, what are you doing in your studio? And she was like, oh, I'm a. Well, I'm bridal wear designer. But, you know, realized that I want to kind of shift and get the balance, and it's hard with kids and blah, blah, blah. And then I was like, oh, my God, that's the same. I've got kids and it's so hard. And I was an artist and. And it was just really nice to connect with someone who gets it on that level because they've lived a very similar experience and have had that kind of artistic, creative job that then hasn't quite met the need it needs to in terms of financial or family or whatever reason. And she's like, me pivoted to do the teacher training, but she also is older and, like, and has kids. And, you know, she's not. Like, quite a few people on the course are fresh out of uni, like, 23, 24. Like, there's. We have nothing in common. And so that's been really nice just to have that sounding board of someone who gets it, who also is finding it really hard to juggle. And that's just. Just a fail seen in that way of, like, I'm having a terrible week trying to get this assignment due. Like, my kid is sick. Da, da, da. And, you know, having someone to be like, yes, me too. This assignment is so hard and expecting us to do so much and, and you know, it's just so lonely otherwise. If it's just you in a void thinking that and you feel then like the problem feels so much bigger. But just hearing someone else say, yeah, I'm really struggling as well, my kids sick too, and I've had to take a day off. And then you're like, oh, it's not just me that's finding this hard. And for some reason that, and that alone is how. I don't know, how is that, how is it helpful? Just knowing that someone else is in that same boat makes you feel validated and makes you feel kind of able to just kind of go, oh, okay, we can, we can do this. Like, all right, then if you're in the same boat and you're struggling and I'm struggling, but we, you know, we can do this and then we get through it. And then you're both like high fiving each other, you know, not physically because she lives the other side of the country, but through emojis. And it's the same like with you in your studio. It's like if you, if you've got young kids and your world has to be kind of shrunk down into this small place of just your home and your studio and pretty much the supermarket, it feels like those interactions where you talk to other people who are in the same field as you really make you feel. I don't know, just.
Speaker B
It makes, if I genuinely feel like it makes my world bigger. Like it. Yeah, I don't know, I feel like I've been really appreciating connection with other people this year and it has been. Yeah. And it's for all of those different reasons. It's, you know, seeing people that actually seem to really see you and get what you've been going through, to thinking about stuff in a different way, to making people that, who appreciate. Make you appreciate what you're doing. Yeah, it's all of that stuff. It's so important. And I feel like I've just been had my head down and doing the work for so long and juggling and doing all of the things that it's sort of been nice to take a beat and talk about it. So. Yeah, yeah, it's been great.
Speaker A
Yeah, I wondered. Actually I wanted to kind of touch on, on a bit of. Kind of what this leads into, what you're just saying the whole reason why. And I think it was a little bit for you maybe. I mean, I think might be speaking for you, but both of Us, last year had very, very different years, but very difficult years in a lot of ways. And so that idea of, like, I mean, I think for me, I did hit a burnout, a type of burnout. And at the time, I didn't notice or realize what that was until. Until I got to the end of the year and made that decision to. To pivot and change and start this teacher training instead. But looking back, being able to take. Have that distance and that space and look back and see how much, like, honestly, the podcast kept me going. Like, if it wasn't for that, I think it would have been an even worse and more difficult years. But I sort of felt like the whole year I was treading water, but. But my head was just ever so slowly going under a little bit more. And by the end of the year, I was literally just, like, my nose out, and that was it. Just in terms of trying to keep my. Myself afloat as a. As a viable artist. Like, I just wasn't making the sales that I thought I would. And every time I, you know, sent a new piece off to an exhibition or to a gallery and. And it, you know, stayed there on the wall or whatever and never sold, it just started to eat away at that confidence. And it. It just took away the joy, definitely. Yeah. And it was by looking back on it, I kind of realized, yeah, there was no way that I could have sustained that again this year. Like, I needed to pivot and do this. And this has obviously been very, very hard in its own way, but in a different kind of way, because I know it's not forever. I know there's an endpoint, and when that end point comes, then doors will open and opportunities will happen, and then hopefully I can step back into the studio. So that's the kind of thing that's keeping me going. But, yeah, I guess my point was that for both of us, we. And hopefully you can speak to this a bit about this too, but both of us had years that pushed us a little bit to the edge of what felt comfortable and nice, possible, impossible. And by the end of the year, we're both like, probably won't do that again next year. Might change something.
Speaker B
To be honest, I think we probably needed a break as well, because as much as the podcast was something that was keeping us going, I think our. It was getting a bit tense, and we were, you know, our friendship, like, needed to come first in this, and I feel like we were getting sensitive with each other as well in a place where we'd normally been able to been so almost brutally honest with each other.
Speaker A
Yeah. But I. Yeah, I was very fragile and that wasn't. You know, but both of us were.
Speaker B
It wasn't just you.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker B
So. But we both had huge, demanding years with our practice and with our home life. Yeah, I know. With me. And I don't talk about my life outside of art very much, and I probably am not going to change that. It's just not where I sit comfortably. But even within my art practice, I. It was an incredibly demanding year, and that does tend to be how I approach things. I just jump in the deep end. And I was very close to sinking last year. And it has come to the point this year where I did end up leaving my Melbourne gallery. And I still now think, oh, my God, what did I do? Partly because commercially they were selling my work incredibly well, but I also knew I needed to take a step back and actually not be connected. And I needed to say no to the gallery so that I would slow down. Because I knew if I just said, I'm just going to. If I just sent them an email saying I'm going to take six months just to slow down for a while, I would have still kept myself under that pressure to keep creating at that same pace. And I needed to actually say, just let me slow down, reevaluate once I've had some. Some space to keep up with or to take that pressure off myself to keep up. And I think I'm terrified of losing momentum with my business because things have been. I know this sounds like a horrible problem to have, but things have been going quite well, and I'm terrified of losing that momentum. But also, the demands on my life recently have also increased and I can't do it all. So I've had to slow down a little bit. And in order to slow down in a way that's comfortable for me, I've had to ease off from some of those commitments, which has been, I've found, incredibly challenging.
Speaker A
It's really, really. It's a really difficult journey to kind of segue into, I think, and. And do it without putting your mental health on the absolute back burner. Yeah, and it's hard. It's just hard.
Speaker B
Yeah, it's. It's a tricky one. So this year I have just given myself a little bit more space, but I'm also catching up on a lot of stuff I didn't do last year because I was so singularly focused on getting work done for that exhibition.
Speaker A
So you've been able to now have a bit More fun and delve into things. Well, I think that's it. It's like you've got to say no to some things in order to be able to say yes to other things. I think this is absolutely a big lesson that I've had to say no to art, you know, pretty much completely for this whole year in order to say yes to this thing so that I can say yes to more art in the Future.
Speaker B
And yep, 100%, I've done more experimenting in the past six months than I've probably done in a couple of years. But in saying that I haven't been ready for that, I think when the time comes, you're, you're ready and you, like, I would all of those things aligned to the point where I was like, okay, I'm happy to say no and let go of a couple of things and I'm ready to make a move into another couple of areas. And I've really loved experimenting a little bit with my art and not all of the experiments have panned out and that's okay. So.
Speaker A
Yeah, but you can't like grow if you don't try.
Speaker B
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A
Like, you, you absolutely will just stagnate if you, you never try these things, these ideas that might. I've done quite a lot of hideous bits of work on paper that literally went in the fire as like, oh, I'm sorry, this is never seeing the light of day. But sometimes it's just an itch that needs to be scratched and it's not going to go beyond that. And other times you do something, actually, there's something here, there's something that I actually might, might push in this direction or I might bring a bit of it into something else. And it's allowing yourself to have those moments where you can be a bit more risk taking and playful because you're not doing it for an exhibition where you've had to say, you know, this isn't going to be an exhibition about X, Y or Z and you can't sort of halfway through, go, actually change my mind, you know, so you have to keep on that path and you have to be quite disciplined about that. And so to be able to kind of go, oh, you know, I've loved seeing some of your things that you've been doing. I mean, I haven't been on Instagram much really this year at all compared to last year, which is probably a healthy thing. But it has mean I've missed stuff and then I've gone back through and gone, oh my gosh, look, at this that Judy's done. That's amazing. I mean it's all amazing.
Speaker B
It's been. But you know, I'm very excited about what I'm moving into. Like as you are when you're, you know, it feels like the start of a new romance almost. And it's not that different, you know, it's still flowers and clouds. But yeah, I'm really excited. And I did have an exhibition planned for the end of next year that I pushed out another year because I really want it to include some of this new stuff that I'm doing and I know that I need time to develop it and I'm so excited about that. And I just makes, that's what makes me feel like it must be. Some of the decisions can't be all wrong because if it's meant I'm so excited about doing something new, then that's great.
Speaker A
Like, well, that's what it's about, isn't it? Following that passion and that excitement. Like that's why we do this, surely. And that's what I lost last year. Like I have a half painted still life of a glass with a lemon slice in it that I was, I remember being really excited to start and I only got like halfway through and I've actually got two of them. And every time I go in the studio, which is not very often, but when I do to get bits or pieces, it sort of stares at me reproachfully from the corner. Like gonna walk past me again, are you? And it's. But I just, I don't know, something happened and I just couldn't. I just couldn't. I just. As much as the photo, I know that the photo will make a great painting. Like it. I, you know, you know, you. Somehow I know if I finish it, it will just feel dead because I'm not mentally there or emotionally there. And I don't know.
Speaker B
Take them off the wall.
Speaker A
Yeah, I probably should. One of them, one of them's covered up, the other one's just there. I don't know, I probably should. I don't go in there that often.
Speaker B
But I just mean like when, for when you do go back in there, whether it's to do jelly plates or whether it's to paint again, you won't. I mean you're not going to start though back up with those. Like one day you might go back and finish them if you feel like it. But when you go back in, it should be this great moment of what am I going to create next? Not like I'VE got to finish these two things.
Speaker A
I. I really would like to finish one of. One of them is probably going to get gessoed over. Although it's an oil painting, so is that possible? Can you gesso over oil paint? Half an oil painting?
Speaker B
Someone will have the answer for that online.
Speaker A
I'm sure it might just be an expensive mistake because it's quite a big one. The other one I would like to finish, like, I know it's probably only got like another two or three days of work and I could do it. And my husband said the other day, like, why don't you clear out your studio and then you can go in there and work rather than sitting at the kitchen table. And I just was like, I just can't. Like that. Just I cannot.
Speaker B
If you turned that into a work zone, it would feel.
Speaker A
I just cry. And I think the thing about when I go in there, like, I don't really want to look. I don't really want to start taking stuff off the wall that feels too fine or like, I don't know, I just want to leave it like the Mary Celeste. At the moment this is sort of abandoned time capsule of stuff everywhere. And I don't know.
Speaker B
You'll get back there.
Speaker A
I'm hoping so. I'm hoping next year I will be able to. But you, I don't know. You don't know what's around the corner, do you?
Speaker B
So exactly. You'll figure out that when it comes, like, you don't know what your new.
Speaker A
I don't know what my next year is going to be like.
Speaker B
Really.
Speaker A
No, I can't even like, because I feel so, you know, like this training. I do feel more confident now in terms of where I feel like a teacher compared to say the start of February when I was like, remember opening those first few papers and looking at them and just being like, what have I done? What have I done? And crying to you on the phone like a literal hour, like, julie, this is a mistake. I don't feel like that now. But there's still the thought of like applying for a job, right, like, and actually teaching and it being my job right now feels like wildly ambitious and beyond imaginable. You know, I mean, I'm only halfway through really, so I'm sort of in that position of like not having enough knowledge but having some. So, yeah, I can't really imagine. Every time I think about February, me and having some sort of part time teaching job and part time doing art, that just feels so, like, that feels like a Silly fantasy dream that I've dreamt up and it actually isn't real.
Speaker B
But you'll find your equilibrium, no matter what. It sort of pans out. Like, you must be. I know that. I remember how terrified you were at the start of the year and hopefully you're feeling quite proud now. Like you've made it halfway through and it has been an insane workload for you. Like, it has been. I've been quite shocked at the amount of assignments and stuff and the intensity at which they've been throwing them at you.
Speaker A
Yes. And I think if I had actually knew, like, known that, no way. There's no way I would have signed up.
Speaker B
But sometimes that's where the deep end is. Good.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker B
You know, rip the band aid off and get it done.
Speaker A
Exactly.
Speaker B
Because otherwise I think this would have been something in the back of your mind taunting you. You've been talking about doing something like this for a while.
Speaker A
Yeah. You know, those first couple of months were, like, brutal. I'm not going to lie. They were absolutely brutal. But slowly and surely I kind of found my feet and started to, like. People say, are you enjoying it? Which is such a weird question when you're doing, like, a really intensive year of study.
Speaker B
Sort of like.
Speaker A
Well, you know, enjoy is a. Is a tricky word. It's not. But there are elements that I am enjoying. Like, I'm definitely learning a lot of things that have made me go, oh, I have a brain that works in. In. In some areas that I didn't know it was capable of.
Speaker B
And.
Speaker A
It'S quite nice to use that muscle that you didn't even, you know, not. The brain isn't a muscle, but, you know what I mean, Flex that muscle. It's quite nice to lay some new neural pathways when you're 43 and you thought that was it. I've made myself feel more intelligent than I thought I was capable of, which is. Which is quite. Quite a revelation, actually, to be.
Speaker B
Have you enjoyed. I know you've done a couple of practicums as well. Have you enjoyed the actual teaching?
Speaker A
Yeah, no, definitely. And that's. That's the bit that's hugely a relief because. Yeah, the essay writing, you know, I mean, that's a hard one to enjoy, unless you are of that ilk that loves doing things like that. In which case, go you and tell me your secret. I don't hate writing. I like writing, but it's just hard when it's like, you know, some. It's just some of them you just like.
Speaker B
I found.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker B
I did my teaching degree online as well, but before I had kids. And I know that even without kids, I found it really challenging. I remember staying up late, nursing a glass of whiskey quite a few times to get the work done. So I don't know how you're doing it with kids, because that was hard for me with.
Speaker A
Yeah, it's hard. It's one of the. I'm proud of myself, like you said, I'm proud of myself for coming through this really difficult thing and getting to this point. And also. Also, I realized when I was sort of talking about this and I haven't cried. And I think it's a pretty telling moment. And I remember reading or hearing someone say once that when you can talk about an event that has been really difficult without crying or being triggered by it, that's when you know you've healed. And I think that this time last year, like, I was crying all the time. And I mean, I do cry a lot, but I definitely feel like I can talk about last year now and it not feel so emotionally sort of difficult than it did at the time. And even this study at the beginning, I found it so overwhelming and stressful, and I cried a lot. But I've got to this point now where I feel like I'm at the. I've got to pass the peak of the mountain, actually, and so I've got less to do than I've done. And there's something about that momentum of now. You could know you're kind of going downhill towards the finish line.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
That it just gives you a little bit less. It takes that pressure off. And I feel a bit more of a. Of a sense of easefulness. And the stress isn't quite as strong, even though I know it's going to be a heavy five months. I've done more than I have to do, if you know what I mean.
Speaker B
Yeah. And I know we've talked about this before, but I'm not. I can't remember if we've mentioned it on the pod. You know that saying of. Talk about it from the scar and not from the wound, about not talking about things when they're so fresh or just even being able to see the context a little bit better about why you were upset or so emotional. You do seem a lot more. I don't know. Together's the wrong word, but do you know what I mean? Like.
Speaker A
But yeah, I feel more grounded. I feel. I feel more stable. Yeah. I think. And that. Yeah, it's in.
Speaker B
So the last six months where I've sort of made a few of those bigger decisions. I stayed up one night just sobbing. And I am definitely not a crier. And it wasn't because I thought I was making the wrong decision. It was. It felt like it was just grieving a loss of giving a few things up. And that was not necessarily even losing the Melbourne Gallery. It was pushing back an exhibition. I knew that that was the right decision for me and the amount of time that I had and the work that I wanted to create. But letting anything go feels. Felt like a big deal, like losing momentum or letting something go or chasing something. And I imagine it would have felt similar to you making, like, why you were so upset when you were starting the degree. It's sort of like I'm gonna have to let something go for a while, and that doesn't mean it's going to be gone forever. And, like, in the same way, like, I've not said I'm never going to do another exhibition. I've just said I'm going to push it back for a bit and give myself some breathing room.
Speaker A
But it's still a grief, there's still a grieving process. And I think it's so, like, again. So I think I heard it on a podcast recently. I forget which one. Sorry, but someone talking about the point of feelings, you know, the point of emotions, is that you feel them like you're supposed to have them. So you feel them and like that, that suppressing that and not allowing yourself to cry is like the absolute worst thing you can do. And, like, by allowing yourself to cry about the exhibition or allowing me that, giving myself that permission to kind of cry about not being doing, you know, quote unquote, an artist anymore type thing, you. You're validating, like, your reason for feeling like that. It's like, yeah, it's sad.
Speaker B
It's hard.
Speaker A
I don't. You know, I feel kind of like a toddler having a tantrum. Like, I. I want to do this. It's not fair. I don't want to not do it, you know, but at the same time, it's like you cry it out and you. You allow yourself to feel those feelings. And it's a bit like with kids, you know. The other day, oh, I was watching my daughter playing netball and she fell over and it was like one of those really cold, cold afternoons, you know, when you fall onto, like, gravel and she stood up and she tried to carry on playing. I could see her little face and look. So she looked. She was so stoic. Like she's only eight. Oh, my God, my cat is wobbling the chair. She was so stoic. And then she looked over at me and I. She just. You know, she just crumbled. Her face just cried. And she, like, hobbled over to me and the coach, who's a lovely person. The coach is lovely. But the coach came up and the coach was like, it's okay. Don't cry. Don't cry. It's okay. You're okay. Don't cry. And my daughter just looked at me, and I just looked at her, and I was like, it's okay. You can cry. That looks so sore. And she just bawled, you know, she burst into her tears, and she just bawled her eyes out and gave me a big hug. And I didn't want to. Like, the coach had to go straight back on the pitch, so it wasn't like she even heard me say that in front of her. But I just don't want my child to hear the words, don't cry, don't cry. You're okay. When she's clearly not okay. Like, but she was trying so hard to not cry because the coach was saying, don't cry. And she just needed to cry because she was upset and hurt and, you know, it was sore. And it's like that validation of, like, you're feeling something, holding it in is not making you feel better. Like, as soon as she cried and had a hug with me, within about 30 seconds, it stopped, and then she could carry on, you know, and that's the thing. It's like, if we hold this in. And that's what I was trying to do last year. I was trying to hold it, everything in, and I was trying so hard to, like, carry on and carry on and be stoic and like, every now and then just fall apart, but then pull myself back together and carry on carrying. And it's like that actually, in the end isn't healthy, and you need to just, like, do the big crying, I think, on the phone to you. I literally just, like, sobbed my heart out, you know, Like, I was, like, pretty much on the. I think I had a full panic attack about it, you know, it was absolutely. It was awful. You know, I wouldn't want to repeat it, but it was also very, very cathartic and needed to happen. And as soon as I'd, like, released all of that sadness and sort of overwhelm and everything got it out, I could then move forwards and. And it was like, I never had that experience. That was a one. It was done. Yeah. So Yeah, I think the lesson perhaps that we both learned is that don't fight the feelings. But. But, yes, we should probably wrap up now. It has been so nice.
Speaker B
It has been good to reconnect. And the next six months, I don't know how frequently we will be recording, but you are always in the back of our minds and we will get back to it when. When there is time. It has taken us two weeks to find tonight as the perfect time and we'll keep aiming for it.
Speaker A
But, yeah, I think. Yeah, I think just being realistic and having no expectation, and then if we do get to record again in the next six months, then that will be just a lovely. A lovely treat for us.
Speaker B
Thank you for sticking with us. It's been really lovely seeing messages come through asking us when the next one's going to come out and how we're doing. And we still do check their Instagram page, I mean, now and again. And it's. It's been really lovely seeing you guys wanting us to continue.
Speaker A
It's been great. Yeah. And I have to be honest, I haven't really checked that Instagram page that much. So. Thank you for kind of keeping it going in that respect, Julie, but I have had messages from. From listeners who say, you know, not. Why is there not a podcast? Not that, but just, oh, I really miss you and Julie. Or I'm. Oh, I re. Listened to an episode today and it was so lovely and, you know, just. Yeah, that's so nice to know that people are understanding of why we're taking this pause and also that they miss us and that they. Yeah, crazy people.
Speaker B
You.
Speaker A
But like I said, you know, you can go and listen to Julie because she's still putting a podcast out without me and it is slightly different, but my, you know, the sound of her voice, you just have to imagine mine in the background whittering away. I probably talked enough on this podcast for the next six months. Hope I let you get a word in edgeways, Julie.
Speaker B
That's all right. It's. You probably had more to work through, but it's been. I'm sure everyone's been hanging out to hear how you're going with the. With the course and everything. Anyway, so I think last time we talked, I kept interrupting you when we were on the phone and I don't know if I let you finish sentence, so I have been quite mindful of that tonight to make sure I let you finish.
Speaker A
Oh, thank you. I think I wouldn't cry if you interrupted me this time. But, you know, lessons learned. All right. Okay. Well, thank you. Thanks, everyone. And do stick around. You know, keep. Keep subscribing so you know, when. When a new one does come out. If. If and when it does. Or when it does in the future, rather. Yeah, that's about it, I think, isn't it? I should probably go to bed. How do we finish?
Speaker B
I can't remember. Thank you. We'll catch you soon.
Speaker A
Okay. Toodaloo. Keep failing. Oh, this is off to a great start.
Speaker B
Yeah, we started really dodgy.
Speaker A
We've got some outtakes. Let's go.
Speaker B
Creepy.
Speaker A
Project. Sorry, Sam.
Topics Covered
Fail Like An Artist
artistic failure insights
creative process
artist interviews
art and motherhood
jelly plate printing
abstract landscapes
artistic inspiration
overcoming creative blocks
artistic identity
social media and art
artistic techniques
self-discovery through art
art community support
returning to art