Culture
Episode 233 – Jorge Lucero – Acts of Caring for Art Educator
In Episode 233 of Keytalk Art Chat, hosts Matt and Laura Grunler welcome back Jorge Lucero to discuss the profound impact of letter writing in the lives of art educators. They explore the emotional la...
Episode 233 – Jorge Lucero – Acts of Caring for Art Educator
Culture •
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Interactive Transcript
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Hi everyone, I'm Matt Grunler.
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And I'm Laura Grunler.
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Today on Keytalk Art Chat the podcast, we'll be chatting with our good friend Orhe Lucero
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about the act of letter writing and curing for our educators.
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Okay, here we are.
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We're trying to see how many times this, like, definitely a friend of the podcast at this
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point.
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Orhe Lucero has been on our podcast.
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But it just feels like an old friend just having a call though.
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Well, he was just talking about, he's like, so when are we going to do like a five timers
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club?
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I need a jacket, right?
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He needs a good, like a special jacket.
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A golden jacket.
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And a sticker.
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Why not high budget air final?
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But we can certainly do something.
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Yes, something a little badger or something.
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Yes, for sure.
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Make sure it any that you try to mention.
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There's like something, some kind of swag, something like that's like sparkly and amazing.
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Yeah, I don't see you wearing sparkly, but I'm going to make happen.
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Lights flash.
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I bet that.
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No, I don't know.
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But okay, we are so always looking forward to these conversations with you and we're
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just super glad you're here.
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So.
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And thanks for claiming it on a Saturday.
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It's Sunday afternoon during football seasons.
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We appreciate that.
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Yeah, don't worry.
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My bears don't play until 3.30.
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So I can do anything before that time.
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I get it.
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I get it.
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It's awesome.
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You know, or hey, we we happen to do some some deep diving, some deep digging, if you
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will, of a topic that just seemed to be really appropriate, even for now.
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Like it just, you know, it's one of those things that always seems to come around.
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And I know you said we kind of threw you off with our show notes because you were like,
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well, now I got to kind of revisit that because that was a while ago.
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But, you know, we're just we're going to be talking about letters that inspire art
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educators and just kind of starting out with that.
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Like who, who was that person that kind of inspired you and or what were their actions,
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that kind of thing?
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And who was your first letter to you?
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Well, let me point out, let me talk a little bit about the actual thing you're talking
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about just put it into context.
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Okay.
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So, and you know, I had to go back and read that one specific part of my website just
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because this one, the one particular letter that I wrote that made it into this, had this
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kind of bigger audience ended up, you know, that was a few years ago.
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However, the letter practice happens constantly.
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I'm sure you're all doing it now, you know, for for all the, the ways that we have to
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communicate with each other nowadays, there's still when it comes to making recommendations
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for other people, we're still required to like send a letter, right?
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And so what happened was a couple summers ago, I was invited by a performance art group
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called Every House Has a Door, which is in Chicago.
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And I happened to I sit on the board of directors.
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And so they, they have this practice of putting up these newsletters periodically.
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And they wanted to invite somebody from outside of their group to write one.
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So they invited me to do it.
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And at the time that they invited me, I, I happened to be in the middle of like a summer
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of writing letters.
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And the reason I had to write so many letters is because, and this might be too much into
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the weeds here, but it, let's see if it's interesting enough.
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The reason I had to write so many letters was because as a full professor, you frequently
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get contacted to write letters of reference for people who are going through the promotion
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and tenure process.
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And most universities, particularly research one universities, of which I teach out one
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of those at the University of Illinois, they usually require that the letters be written
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by faculty members of the highest rank.
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So full professors, which you know, there, there aren't that many of us in, there
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are obviously a lot of us.
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Some of us have retired, but then, but then in our education specifically, they're,
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they're only a handful of us.
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So, so get contacted to write these letters of, of review for our colleagues who might
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be going up for, for promotion.
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And so in this one particular summer, I was writing, I had seven of those letters to write.
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And here's the thing about those letters.
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Those letters are written and you have to do an assessment of, you know, you're essentially
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your colleagues in the field, their, their work, their entire portfolio, their teaching,
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their service and their scholarship or their creative work.
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And what's really interesting about the whole thing or the part that I find like super complex
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about the whole thing is that it's all confidential.
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So you're not, there no one, that person who you writing that letter for is not going
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to see that letter.
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Those letters are, are being given to the people who are assessing their case at their university.
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However, however, while it was writing the letter, letters, I should say, I found myself really
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thinking about how they are, they're essentially like love letters because you're, you're trying
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to make a case for your colleagues to be promoted.
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And the way that you do that is by saying all the great things that they, that they've done
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in their work and they're in their careers, right?
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So when, when every house has a door, this performance group came to me and asked if I would
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submit a newsletter for this, this periodical newsletter thing that they publish,
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I decided to write it as an open letter of recommendation for them.
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Why, what this point I've known for, you know, 30 years. So like I've known some of the members
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of that performance group for 30 years. So I decided to write to sort of really reflect on what
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does it mean to write a letter of recommendation. And then when you write that letter of recommendation,
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like what is the posture that you that we would take that, that we take while we write those
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letters. And for me, they really become like, I mean, I kind of think they have three parts to
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them. The first part is the part where you present yourself and you say, these are the reasons
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why I'm the one who's qualified to write this letter. The second part is the part where you,
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it's sort of the testimony part. It's the part where you say, here's what I've witnessed,
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here's what I can see and everything that this person has done. And here's why I think it's a
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value. And then the last part is kind of a prediction part. It's the part where you say, here's
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why I think this person should be promoted. And here's all the great things that are going to
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I think they're going to continue doing what they continue to contribute to the field because of
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everything that they've done already. So it's got kind of this arc where you're like presenting
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yourself, presenting the case and then making kind of a prediction into the thing. And again,
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you know, for me, there's no other way to write those letters than to write them from a position of
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high care of really trying to say, how do I pay attention to, because it's an incredible
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amount of invisible labor. Sometimes that, not just a professor, but a teacher goes through, right?
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It's just a lot of stuff that we do that, I guess on some level, the people who are reading those
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letters of recommendation are almost like depending on the writer. So in this case, me to interpret
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and to amplify all of that work that's been done, not that they couldn't see it for themselves,
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but on some level, it's like they want to say, tell us why it's a value. And so I really try to,
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I mean, I try to come to that with a lot of generosity.
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You know, I think you, I think you, you really, I mean, I think you just, you know, you definitely
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answered that question of, of like, you know, kind of how you came about with that. And just thinking
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about the many conversations we've had with educators and giving almost kind of shout-outs to
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particular teachers that have influenced them or inspired them for whatever reason that that was.
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I just, yeah, I, I'm sitting here thinking about letters that I've received from students,
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or not, you know, we're getting ready to go to college, or even ones that aren't getting ready
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to graduate, you know, just they're like, I don't necessarily remember all the things that
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you taught me, but I remember how I was feeling in that classroom. And I remember how you,
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you know, made that room feel because of that. And I just, it's, it's so crazy, but yet so
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validating. And it's just awesome. Well, sorry, Garnet Larr. No, I just, I just wanted to kind of tap into
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something that connects to both of what you're both saying in terms of this invisible labor and
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emotional, I mean, there's a lot about just the emotional energy that we expend in our careers lately.
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And, you know, how that's not seen. And, and I think the passion that arts educators
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exude is taps into that emotional energy and invisible labor. Like we're constantly in the
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mode of thinking about it. And I just the idea of the amount of care that you're putting into
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these letters. I don't, I don't know that there's a question in that, but I just kind of wanted to
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tap into that. Well, no, but I think a good and excellent point, which is actually, you're,
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you're actually putting a bracket around the larger point that I was trying to make, which is
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that. And maybe this is something I have mentioned on your podcast before, but I'm, I'm most intrigued
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as an artist, I'm most intrigued in things that present themselves as invisible or difficult to
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identify, right? So, yeah. So with conception with my interest in conceptual art, for example,
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or my practice as somebody who works through conceptual art practices, I'm always interested in
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the ephemeral. I'm interested in the boring. I'm interested in the clerical. I'm interested in all
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of these things that come off as things that can be easily dismissed, maybe? Yes. And I think,
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I think that we're not only letter writing, but the action of letter writing, but more importantly,
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the action of giving a recommendation, kind of in secret, is like, to me, is in line or is a,
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it's a visible, it's a visible example of, I should say, it's one example of the many different
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types of practices that we as teachers are taking, right? Because it's not, it's not just that we write
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letters of recommendation. It's also that we take a lot of meetings behind like, away from our
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students that are in the service of our students, right? That we, it's that we do a ton of preparation
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before school, after school, in between classes, as a means to be ready for the moments when we're
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with the students, it's that we're constantly professionally developing ourselves, it's that no
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matter where we are, even if we're on quote unquote summer vacation or vacation, we find ourselves
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constantly thinking and prepping for our, yes, for our class, right? And not to mention, you know,
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all of the, what the thing you were pointing to a moment ago, right? Alora, which is,
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which is all of the emotional work that we have to do to be psychologically prepared, spiritually
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prepared, physically prepared. I mean, I know tons of teachers who, you know, obviously they care
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about their bodies, so they're, they're trying to figure out how to live healthier and do more
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exercise and stuff like that. But a lot of times it's at the service of wanting to do their practice
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even better, right? It's, right? It is yet for themselves, it is for keeping themselves healthy
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for their families. But a lot of times it's also because they know the amount of energy it takes to
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be a teacher, because they know what it takes to, to have the, the clarity of mind that they want
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to have when they're in the classroom and stuff. So there are all, I mean, it's almost like all of
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these things that we do in life that, that are not validated necessarily by, you know, professional
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professional development credits or, or, you know, points on a, on a resume something, you know,
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but that are still so much a part of the work. And I think the letter writing, you know, as in
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visit, you know, this recommendation letter writing as, as much as, as invisible as that practice
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can be sometimes, it really is just kind of scratching the surface of the amount of visible,
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invisible work that we do as teachers. And I think I've been
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promedating on this idea a lot lately, because, you know, even in the role that I have now,
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there's just a lot of emotional energy and invisible labor that goes in, you know, behind the scenes,
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you know, and it's, it's a lot of hard decision making. And I think that's one of the things that
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taxes teachers the most is the amount of decisions they're making in just one class period, right?
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And I don't think the average person knows that or understands that. And I, I've been thinking like,
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how do we uplift educators in understanding that what they're doing and what they're being
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asked to do is almost superhuman sometimes. Yeah. Can I make a proposal for that?
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Absolutely. This is in line with everything that I've said in all of my appearances on your podcast
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here. I think that there's some answers in art. Like I think that I think that we can look at
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the way that we venerate certain conceptual art practices or certain art practices that have
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the same kinds of properties, whether it's arduousness or or long durationality, you know, like,
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like work that happens over a long period of time, work that's difficult to document, you know,
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all characteristics that I think we would use to describe a teacher's practice, even under
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appreciated work, right? But I think that there are cues that we can take from the way that we
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process that kind of art and the way that we gain inspiration from that art curiosity, the way
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that we get permissions from that work to live our lives in order to like if we if we do a little
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studying, I think about that kind of work. It might open up some pathways for how to
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come to grips with a lot of that invisible labor that we do as teachers and not necessarily see it as
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you know, we're completely under appreciated and maybe begin to start to look at it as there
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is this an opportunity? Is there something here? Now that's not to say that we're under that we're
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not underpaid because we are and that's not to say that we're not overworked because we are that
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also, right? So, I mean, there are those things that we need to pay attention to, but there are also
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these really curious overlaps between some of the things that we do as teachers that we find that
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maybe sometimes we think these are not creative tasks, but they do overlap with some art making and
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being able to put your finger on those things opens them up for them to be less taxing on us
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when we're in our schools, for example. As you're having conversations around this with other art
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educators, are there any reoccurring themes that come out or challenges? I mean, you know,
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beyond being underpaid and all this, you know, just in terms of things that I think those of us
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that see and hear like how themes that we can continue to support our colleagues with.
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Yeah, I mean, obviously the relational part of it is huge. I mean, the way
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you know, art classrooms are so unique in the way that they actually put relationships
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front and center. So, it isn't, I'm not saying that this doesn't happen in, in, you know,
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classrooms that are not focused on the arts, but it just happens so much more in the arts classrooms.
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I don't know if it has something to do with the way that the students understand what art is and
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maybe that coming in with that sort of mental paradigm makes them, you know, think that it's a
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space where they could quote unquote be more themselves, maybe, you know, it also could be because
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I know that a lot of art teachers subscribe to some pretty firm tenants of being critical pedagogues,
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so they're good listeners, they, or they're trying to be right, they're trying to be good listeners,
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they're trying to hold space for their students, they celebrate difference, you know, so that students are,
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you know, not necessarily trying to be pigeonholed into templates, but being allowed to be themselves,
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and as you're the guest of your, your most recent episode was talking about you, they also
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are really attentive to multi modalities, right, and allowing students to approach
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the subject, approach the inquiry, approach the expression from whatever angle might do them the
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best, right, might work the best for them. So I think on some level, like one of one thing that comes
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is one thing that does come up that I think has a direct overlap with art is, is how much the art
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teacher needs to kind of manage that situation, and just in all of its, in all of its diversity,
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in all of its emergence, like how much of it is new on a daily basis, and even year to year, I mean,
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seasoned art teachers still find themselves being surprised from day to day.
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William, I think it's one of the great things about being an art educator is that you do find
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yourself surprised, but then that's a whole other level of problem solving, right? Yeah.
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Wow, how do I manage this new thing, you know, and yeah, I was, I mean, I was really thinking to you
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about just, I don't know where I am in my brain lately, but I had just been thinking about,
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and I think it's just the world and the country we're living in right now, but this emotional
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energy that we're spending and thinking about in the art space, even now as a facilitator or programming,
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people will reach out to me and, and just tell me things, and need a listening ear, right?
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And that doesn't always mean I have to do anything or that I have to fix it, but that it's on my heart,
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and I have to figure out how to manage that, right? And with kids, it can be different, though,
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because I remember many, many, many, many times as a ninth and tenth grade art teacher,
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that I was their person, where they confide in it. And then there were times where I had to think,
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you know, is this something to the level where now I need to, you know, call our, well in Texas,
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we call it CPS, that's not Chicago Public Schools, sorry. I'm self-protective services.
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Yes. But, you know, and we're getting a counselor involved, they're getting a school school
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school school, I'll just involve, and I think that there's just a, there's just, I think,
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to your point that happens so much more for our teachers than any other teachers I've ever worked with.
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Yeah. You know, it's funny. And then in the end, what ends up happening is,
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the teacher then also needs a community. They need somebody, they need other, you know, if you're
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fortunate enough to work in a school where you have colleagues, and I'm talking specifically
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here about other art colleagues, right, where you have those kinds of colleagues, you know, that
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can be a really enriching setup for you, but if you don't have that, and we know that so many of our,
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you know, elementary school and even our middle school teachers don't typically have,
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you know, another art teacher in the building, right. Then it becomes a lot more, it's a much more
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desperate situation to find those networks and to, and to be able to connect with other people who
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could kind of speak into the, I would call it the creativity of having to be in our teacher.
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And I mean, creativity, I mean, like every instance of having to think on your feet, every instance
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of having to, to heal something or, or solve something or, or be there for someone, you know, all of
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those instances require a certain kind of elasticity, which I think our teachers are particularly
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apt, apt to do. Yeah.
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Jorge, you know, you brought up, well, it's been a, it's been a bunch of points that I've noticed
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throughout this conversation so far. And even just now when you were talking about
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the art teacher or the teacher being able to reach out to someone, you know, that's a,
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that's a level of vulnerability that we're not always the most comfortable with. And, you know,
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as you were talking about the very beginning to that vulnerability, writing, writing a letter
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for someone, especially talking about what their capabilities are, like what their, what their
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strong suits are. And then being able to say, Hey, this is what I think they can dance from this
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point on. I'm just curious, like, how does that play, how does that vulnerability play into not
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just writing those letters, but also how you're teaching, you're teaching philosophy in the classroom.
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Yeah. Right. Well, that, I mean, I know there's not one solution. I'm just, I'm just curious on
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your thoughts on it. I mean, I do think that that I wonder, you know, because I, my instinct is to
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say, like, how, how do we stay open to each other, but I, but, but, you know, and some of this is
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tricky, you know, in the classroom, because, because, you know, that kind of vulnerability,
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as, as much as it can be, as much as it can engender life, it could also put a person in a, in a,
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a very, uh, okay, oh, yeah, a very dangerous situation, you know, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I almost feel
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like saying, like, yeah, if I was thinking, I'm kind of trying to think of the question in regards to
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pre-service teachers that I've worked with, you know, if I, if what would I encourage to them,
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you know, like, what, what would I say? Like, I would say, you know, uh, that vulnerability and that
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kind of openness with your students can sometimes be an amazing tool for you to build the kinds of
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spaces that you want to have in the, you know, but it's, it's also very like, you, it's kind of
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utopian in a way. Yes it is. And, um, and what if the, what if the space or the people in the space,
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um, don't want to give you that? Or don't want to come along for that ride, you know,
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on some level, you have to be really like measured and, and, um, I mean, I think there's a level
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of vulnerability. I don't think you have to be, I mean, you know, the, the, the latest things right
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now is to be open and honest with your students. But I think, you know, as you're just saying, I think
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that's a, that's a kind of slippery slope, if you will, of how, how much open, how much honest,
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and, and I think that's kind of where we all kind of get. Well, I think you have to discern
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the age level. Oh, absolutely. Who's your audience? Who are your students? That you have to
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discern your community, you have to discern your policies in your district, your policies,
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your state education board, and then your state level things that are going on. And I'm not going
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to get political, but there's, there's a lot of being, being thoughtful around that that needs to
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happen, especially in this current environment. I wonder if, um, if, if the one thing that can
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actually be done as a gesture of care is to be really, really good at teaching our subject. And
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what I mean by that is like, if I'm not, I'm not trying to talk about art as a distraction. I am
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trying to talk about it as a sort of way through. So if we get really good at teaching our, if we
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get really good at, at producing engaging content, engaging curriculum, engaging moments with our
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students, then, then maybe it, maybe we're offering them tools to be able to see ourselves
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collectively through these moments, you know, that we're going through right now, you know.
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I kind of, I kind of am dreaming it up as a kind of, you know, again, not, not to get distracted
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from the reality of the moment, but to, but to say, you know, what, what is the, what, how is this,
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what is the healing power or even the, the visionary power of being able to participate in these
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kinds of creative practices, you know, what, and not just, not just producing artworks, but the
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actual engagement of the processes, what does that do for us, you know. I certainly don't,
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I certainly would never dismiss the power that art has to, to, to heal in that way, even just,
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even just the activity of it, even if it was just some kind of, you know, focused,
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you know, in Spanish, we would call it Manualidades, which, which translates, the actual translation
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for that word is craft, but I don't mean it that it's, it's more like, it's more like handy work.
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So, having this dream of like craft circles lately, yeah, and, and I know, and I don't mean it as in
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craft either, like, yeah, and you certainly could be knitting or quilting or, you know, doing those
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things or you could just be around a large table journaling together, like, like, and I just feel
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this power in coming together in these circles of, of care, honestly, circles of care.
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And my wife was doing, did not introduce her, but my wife was doing the pandemic. She got really
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into making puzzles, or like, like, like, like, like, like, jigsaw puzzles, like, come on,
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you're the jigsaw puzzles, you know. And, and on some level, it was kind of this, I mean, I don't
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want to, I'm not trying to like, over, I'm not trying to be dramatic here, but like, it was like,
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it was something akin to like meditating or praying or something, right? It was just like, I need
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a quiet hour, where the task at hand is before me, and I can just stay on it.
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I've heard people speak about it when they, you know, if they have that
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availability with cooking or something, right? And like, baking, right? I just, if I could just
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follow the steps for the next hour and a half, it will allow me to, it's, it kind of allows the
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breathing to get regulated or something. Yeah. No, absolutely. I know. Seeing our, I just, I,
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I read them, but I just took my daughter with me to, she needed a, we're working through some,
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some skincare things and, and she needed a facial. And she said, mom, I don't know how to relax
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for an hour. And I thought, this is more a 13 year old, like, yeah, wow. And I think that that's kind
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of what I'm thinking about is like, how do we not necessarily zone out, but get into that place of,
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just being. Yeah, yeah. The moment. Well, present. Yeah. Yeah. That's, you know, that's why, you know,
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for all of the, all of the advocating that I do for contemporary art and conceptual art practices
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and, and art that has ideas in it and stuff, I've never been, I, I've always, you know, perhaps I'm
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putting myself in a tricky position here, but I've, I've never been against, uh, art.
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Um, what's the right word here? Like I, I, I, I, let's say crafty, but I'm not, I'm not, I'm not,
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I'm not actually trying to, that's not the word that I want to use. I, again, the, the Spanish word is
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manduali, that is, which means like handy work, something that involves your hands, that is on some
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level, some repetitious practice. Like, yes, I'll just go really base and say like, cutting paper or,
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or re or writing, you know, your letters in those, in those little, you know, like practicing
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your penmanship and these little, uh, pre-scrub lines and stuff, it's almost like, you know,
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which is a kind of tracing drawing type practice, right? Uh, I, the reason I've never been able to
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dismiss all that stuff, even given all of the work that I've done around stuff that's a lot more,
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uh, you know, content's heavy, is that, that stuff rescued me when I was a kid myself.
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You know, and like I, I have distinct memories of, of, uh, you know, obviously that letter writing
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exercise, but also cutting strips of paper and making these kinds of like, basket, you know,
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not basket, like, this sort of checker boards with interweaving scripts of colored paper into each
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other and just, and just getting completely lost in that activity and it being the kind of respite
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that I needed in the, in the sort of speed of the school day. So on some level, it's like, you know,
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nothing like being given an assignment, nothing like being given a task that has an A to Z,
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um, direction to it, right? And on some level, not to bring it back completely full circle, but
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the letter writing is a little bit like that too. It's like somebody saying, do this from here to
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here and it does not, it can't be more than four pages, right? Or it can't be more than three pages,
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right? And so the task of being told exactly what this is and how it needs to end, like on some level,
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you know, I'm not the first person to say this, but on some level, it unleashes a kind of another
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level of creativity and, and, and engagements that I think is sometimes difficult to do when,
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when you have the freedom of doing your projects, however you want to do them.
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Well, kind of similar, not similar, but just at, you know, coming to kind of full circle it.
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I know a lot of your letters, unfortunately, the recipient isn't actually the recipient.
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So if you were, I would like to think so. I would like to think that the energy that I'd
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on some level is coming back to them, but yes, directly.
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And, bro, but that's, but that's why I'm, that's that you actually kind of pre-answered the question,
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because I'm thinking about, you know, if they can hear your words or read your words, what would you
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hope that they carry with them into the next phase? That's a great question.
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I love that question, because I think this is what I, I haven't answered for that actually,
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and I mean, it's not uniform across every single letter, one of these letters, I actually think
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at this point I've written hundreds of letters, you know, and, and, I always have this fantasy about
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like being able to bring them all back, all the letters back, and maybe redact the most sensitive
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information and then just put them all into one collection so that they could still be seen somehow.
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But the, I think if I had to say that they had a, if they had, if I had to point to something that
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they all share, and maybe I'm giving something about myself away here in terms of the letters,
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but I really always try to find something worthwhile in what my colleagues are doing, right? So,
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it's very difficult for me to see myself as the judge of what my colleagues do,
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and to say, because I believe that my criteria and my perspective is very limited and,
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you know, I try to look with a certain kind of
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broadness, you know, I'm trying to find what it is that they are doing, not what I think they
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aren't doing. And so, the thing that I would say to my colleagues who are writing those letters for,
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even though they don't know that I've written them for them, is keep doing what you're doing,
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you know, keep like, like you just discover it by actually doing it. So, so keep doing it and,
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you know, it's unique, like the work that you're doing is unique, you know, even, even if it has
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shared, if it shares some tendons with other people's work or stuff that preceded you or,
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or people that you're collaborating with, you know, it's just such a, it's a real privilege,
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I think, to be able to do what we do as teachers, and the work that we're doing is, is,
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is, and is creative scholars, and the work that we're doing is unique, and so it just needs to
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keep getting done, because it is worth something, even though it might not be, we might not be able to,
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like, quickly manufacture the point and say, like, this is what it's worth, it is worth something in
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the long run, and, and we just have to keep accumulating it, keep putting it on top of each other.
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Yeah, you know, normally we would ask the last question. That was it. I'll be the finished time.
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Oh my goodness. All right. I just think, I mean, like, what, like, what's the thing, right? Like,
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we can't really, I know that we're not powerful in the, in the way that we want that we might want
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to be powerful, meaning, meaning that we could do something right now that the, that the,
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that the snap of our finger would do the thing that we want to happen. We're not powerful in that
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way, but with the way that we are powerful is in increments is in collection, is in,
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is in coming together, doing it for a long time, doing it over and over again, not giving up,
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you know, like, that's how we are powerful, you know, and, and, and I know that it's,
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it's annoying because we don't get to see, we don't get to see the results right away, you know,
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but I just, we just can't, we can't stop, you know, we have to keep going and, and I,
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for one, I'm really, really happy and I've been told this actually by colleagues here at the university,
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they, they always, I have been told by people that they know that our educators are, are very
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generous and very kind to each other and that I've literally been spoken to and have been told,
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your field, your field, your field is, is filled with kind people who want to work for each other
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and I believe that actually, I felt it, I've, I've, I've, hopefully, I've been able to contribute to
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it a little bit too. Oh, I think so. A lot of it. A lot of it. Jorge, thank you again. We just
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enjoy these conversations and I love the fact that we got to make this happen, so thank you.
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It's my pleasure and, and let me know when, let me know when I'm going to get my badge.
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How to do, I know I have to do one more. Yeah, but it'll happen, but there's no doubt.
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They're always such, wow, amazing conversations and thoughtful and like, did we stay on the questions?
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No, like, I love it because it's, it's really, truly a chat. Like, we really have, I mean,
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not that we don't have chats with other guests, but it feels like this, like, no, just, let's, let's dig in.
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I am finding myself, you know, and maybe it's, maybe it's my age now, but I'm starting to get to that
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point where I'm definitely doing a lot more reflecting on what I'm, what I'm working on, what I'm,
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you know, how I'm, how I'm approaching it and ways to go about and prudent it.
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Well, I'm, I'm thinking a lot more about how to take care of each other and this idea around,
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I like that he said, we are the kindest field.
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That's different. And I would definitely agree with you too. I really do. Every time about,
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you know, I'm not, first of all, as I talk on a regular basis, I don't call friends, I don't,
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I don't, I'm not the person that just like calls people or drops a postcard and mail or things like that.
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And I've been, it's been one of my goals lately, just to send a moment of like, hey, I'm thinking
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about you and I know what you do matters. And if anything, I would hope that people take away from
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this conversation that, you know, Chi Chi has always been hard. And it might be a little harder
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right now, depending on where you live in the country. And I think we just need to take care of each
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other. And if you can drop a note to that person in email or in voicemail or a text or a postcard,
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I think that's something really great to do. And I think we just need to do those little,
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little things to keep each other uplifted and say, hey, I see what you're doing.
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Okay. So, you know, that's a really good, that's a really good thought.
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Okay, thanks.
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How do you know? No, I'm just, I was thinking of this really good segue actually because,
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you know, if people wanted to reach out to us.
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Oh, well, yeah. And I don't, and drop us a line or a note or a thought.
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I mean, really, I think what we really want is your ideas and what you want to learn about and
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who you want to hear from. So if you want to share those ideas with us, you can reach out to us via
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email at the creativity, uh, dbt at gmail.com or you can message us on Instagram, really,
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mostly Instagram these days. We're, we're still trying the other one, but it's just not
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blue sky. It's just taking off yet. So Instagram at creativity, dbt,
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uh, and either of those forms would be really great. And then, um, if they wanted to find materials
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from this discussion with Jorge, where would they find those maps? They would find them on the,
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first off, Davis website, which is davisart.com, uh, underneath free resources, you'll find our chat,
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and then you'll find all of the chats, all of the recordings, all the podcasts embedded onto the
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site, along with their own individual resource page, resource page. So, um, and then lastly,
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it certainly helps us if you can, uh, just rate and review and like the podcast, hopefully you'll
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like it. Uh, and then if you do that wherever you listen to your podcasts on Apple Spotify,
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Amazon, wherever that is, it just helps us keep this going. And, um, we really appreciate all of
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you and the hard work you do and the work you do for your colleagues and your students, and we
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wish you a creative weekend.