Culture
Ep.6: The High-Handed Enemy (Showrunner/EP/Writer Alison Schapker, EP/Writer Jordan Goldberg; Actor Olivia Williams; and Production Designer Tom Meyer)
In Episode 6 of the Dune Prophecy Podcast, hosts Greg and Amidali dive into the explosive season one finale, 'The High-Handed Enemy.' Joined by showrunner Alison Schapker, executive producer...
Ep.6: The High-Handed Enemy (Showrunner/EP/Writer Alison Schapker, EP/Writer Jordan Goldberg; Actor Olivia Williams; and Production Designer Tom Meyer)
Culture •
0:00 / 0:00
Interactive Transcript
Speaker A
The Harkonnen sisters have been lying to you about the history of this place. This order was grown on blood soaked roots. It's time you learn the truth.
Speaker B
Welcome to the official Dune Prophecy Podcast. I'm Greg. Greta Johnson.
Speaker C
And I'm Amidali Akbar. Today we're talking all about the season one finale of Dune Prophecy.
Speaker B
Yes. And to break it all down with us, we are joined once again by showrunner, writer and executive producer Allison Schapker and executive producer and writer Jordan Goldberg.
Speaker C
Then we're gonna sit down with one of the key actors at the heart of this series, Olivia Williams, who plays Tula Harkonnen.
Speaker B
And finally, we will talk with production designer Tom Meyer about the secrets of the Imperium. Now, here is your spoiler warning. There are spoilers for the entire first season of Dune Prophecy in this episode. So catch up if you haven't already, and then come back to us.
Speaker A
I wanted to teach you about power, so let this be a lesson.
Speaker B
Okay, let's get a quick recap of this finale titled the High Handed Enemy.
Speaker C
So much to talk about. So much to talk about.
Speaker B
All right, you want to start us off?
Speaker C
Sure. We start with a flashback to the early sisterhood where we learned that Valya not only killed Dorothea, but also recruited her posse to kill all of Dorotea's followers. Crucially, we also find out that Tula was pregnant with Ori Atreides baby, but faked a stillbirth so that the child wouldn't be raised in the sisterhood. And that baby grew up to be Desmond Hart.
Speaker B
No big deal.
Speaker C
A lot, a lot, a lot. I was not ready for that.
Speaker B
I know. That's not even the half of it either. So, in the present, Tula is trying to figure out how to stop the virus with sister Nazir. Nazir tries to transmute the but is burned alive in the process, which gives Tula a key insight into how it works. And so she heads off to Salusa Secundus.
Speaker C
Rest in peace, Nazir. Meanwhile, on Walk 9, Dorothea's spirit is channeled through Lila's body, and she reveals the secrets of the sisterhood to the acolytes. Then she convinces them to destroy the Anirul breeding index on Salusa Secundus.
Speaker B
Emperor Javiko has lost complete control of Natalia and Desmond. Natalia has her own daughter arrested and tells Javiko that she is done listening to him. And then poor Javico dies by suicide in front of Francesca, and Francesca winds up getting killed herself by Empress Natalia Valya.
Speaker C
Meanwhile, we haven't even gotten to Valya yet, schemes her way into the palace to rescue Princess Inez and Kirin Atreides. But she sacrifices Theodosia in the process.
Speaker B
Along the way, Valya faces Desmond and his virus, and with Tula's help, is able to face her fears and survive.
Speaker C
And in that moment, we also see into Desmond's mind, and we learn that his abilities come from some sort of surgery done against his will by a second hidden hand who is using a thinking machine.
Speaker A
Mm.
Speaker B
So as we end this season, Tula is reunited with her secret son, Desmond, and then he has her arrested. And Valya, Inez and Kiran land on Arrakis, the desert planet that Valya believes is the key to uncovering their enemies. There is a lot to unpack here.
Speaker C
I think we have to start in the past because it really feels like the past is informing everything that's happened in the world. Not just for the sisterhood, but, like.
Speaker B
The Empire, the entire series, let alone this episode. Yeah. So amed. One of the first things we learn in this episode is we get confirmation of Desmond's parentage that it's Tula and her lovely Atreides boy.
Speaker C
I wanna acknowledge the fans here, okay. And the discussions that are happening around Desmond Hart. Desmond Hart. A lot of kind of questions for Dune fans, because who is he? What is he doing? What is this power? And the reveal here works on so many levels because it was hiding in plain sight for me. I will say the other thing that I think has a lot of thematic resonance for me. I am rereading all the books. I'm on book three and now reading it as a parent. One of the things that comes up a lot is the question of how much do you let your inheritance from your parents, who may have the best intentions or may have terrible intentions, shape your future? And are you going to make a choice for yourself? You don't realize the way in which you have become your parents. I'll use some dude words here. Freak or abomination. Until you're, like, old enough to realize what's been done to you. So to see, like, these characters like Desmond, who was, like, given the ability to break free from his family trauma, but still got pulled back in. And then Lila, also separate from her family trauma, and yet she inherits all of that. And I think that's, like, one of the arguments that I see as a thematic resonance here is like, how much do we take what is good from our parents versus how much do we let their, like, dreams for us, which may not Be our dreams, shape our future. And I'm trying not to do that with my future generation. Let me.
Speaker B
There you go. And now it's time for us to go beyond the veil and unpack this episode with our special guests, showrunner, writer and executive producer Allison Schapker and executive producer and writer Jordan Goldberg. Let's get to it. Alison. Jordan, welcome back to the podcast.
Speaker D
Great to be back.
Speaker E
Good to see you.
Speaker C
The finale.
Speaker D
Woo.
Speaker B
Woo.
Speaker C
It's all out.
Speaker B
We are so excited to get into this one. Y' all packed a lot into this final episode, and I think a great place to start would be our sisterhood of the past, because we learn so much more about not only the secrets that Tula and Valya have been keeping, but also, like, the plans that they have made and how meticulous this has been for so long. I would love to hear how you decided to save some of these juicy details for the finale.
Speaker D
I think we wanted to unfold a story in the past that would, you know, have plans within plans and true Bene Gesserit style, and to understand, like, there was this plan you found out about in the premiere, but actually underneath that were some personal things that it takes a whole season to understand that there is more going on. There's more going on for Valya, there's more going on for Tula, and that. And they're also still Harkonnen sisters, even though they're at the sisterhood now. And I thought that was really thrilling to kind of start there in the finale to sort of mirror the premiere in a way, to come back to it in memory, to understand that night there was more going on and to add that dimension. And when Tula finally tells Valya she's pregnant, and then I love that Valya has this sort of supportive sisterly reaction to it.
Speaker B
Is that real, though?
Speaker D
Yeah, I actually think it is.
Speaker C
You think it is?
Speaker B
Okay.
Speaker D
Oh, I really, 100% do. I feel like Valya. That's Valya, like, her fierce loyalty, and, I mean, she's very loyal to Tula, and Tula has followed her to the sisterhood, and she is going to take care of her, and she's going to take care of them. I think the problem with Valya is what's behind that commitment.
Speaker B
Yes.
Speaker D
You know, it can be the most comforting thing in the world, I think, and also the scariest thing when Valya's on your side.
Speaker C
And also, she could change her mind if the plan changes. You know what I mean? Like, that's what's like I agree with you, Alison. I was like, she is being genuine right now, but you just think about the future. Things will change for her, and those.
Speaker D
Feelings may not last. Oh, yeah. As good as it might feel in that moment, for Valya to be like, you and me, we got this. I think Tula agrees with you, Amit.
Speaker C
Right?
Speaker E
Yeah. I mean, she. At the end of episode three, the condition that she makes to go follow Valya to the sisterhood was a fresh start. There's no greater fresh start, I guess, for people than having a baby. And that is the promise. I mean, you know, I've had two, and it's not much of a fresh start, but it feels fresh for about 10 seconds. Yeah, exactly. But I do feel like there's, as Taliesin's saying, there's a lot of optimism that we're gonna raise this kid together, which really kind of furthers this idea that this is, you know, this is going to be good for them, even though this just happens at the heels of murdering someone. But again, it's like, you know, But I think that Dorothea and what happened there was sort of, you know, necessary to what the sisterhood was up against. I think what's really powerful about this particular backstory is why mother and son aren't together. And it all has to do with what unfreshes that fresh start and what ends up becoming, you know, Tula saying, I can't allow this person to grow up. And this environment.
Speaker C
I love the human conflict, of course, that's so big. But what I also loved about what was done here was how it recontextualizes. You called it the foundational crime. I think in the first episode, the murder, for me, it was just like I had a different feeling about the other sisters. I was like, oh, they're Valya's pawns. And now they're like, oh, they're really Valya's conspirators. Like, they're fully in. They're not like, what did you do? They're like, what do we do? You know? Like, that was such an interesting thing for me to see.
Speaker D
Yeah. They don't see how Valya's gonna solve the problem. And I don't know that Valya, in that moment, totally see how she's gonna solve the problem. She just knows that Dorothea cannot be allowed to win, that there's just too much riding on the future. And we can't destroy the breeding index. We can't destroy Raquela's great work. Like, we can't take this butlerian anti technology stance, or we're not gonna be able to do what we need to do. And so Dorothea has to be made to cede to our plan. And when she doesn't, obviously, Valya takes, like, drastic action. And again, I don't think she wanted to, but she's willing to do it. And I think that's what makes her Valya Harkonnen. Yeah, but they were willing to go along with it.
Speaker C
Yeah. It's all built on the mass grave. Now you have to go back and see, oh, that was a mass grave. That's a mass grave that they're doing all those scenes.
Speaker D
That's right.
Speaker B
I think that was the most mind blowing reveal for me of the series, was just how. How deeply, violently, Valya really did claim power. I mean, you know, obviously we knew from the beginning, but, like, the exponentiality of that was just so significant.
Speaker D
Right. That the Sisterhood is founded in a. You know, it is not immune from the violence of the world.
Speaker A
No.
Speaker B
It's a mass execution.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker B
I thought the choice of the word choose was so provocative, and I would love, like, did you consider other words or was it always choose?
Speaker D
Well, we did consider other words, but we didn't want them on film. Like, I don't want, like, you know, kill yourself. You know, like, was just, like, not something. I think I wanted a meme out there in the world, you know, like. But also choose felt to me like it was actually more the heart of what was going on. And I think it was genuine. And I think those sisters were such believers that they all chose very much as sisters. You know, fuck this. Like, the way Avila doesn't. Obviously, Avila makes the alternate choice. And I think that was really provocative, too. And you see Valya accept it, and then now you understand what it was like that she was at their side the whole season, but that she actually, too, has a past that she's haunted by. And, you know, she goes from being the woman behind Valia at the very beginning in the premiere to breaking with Valya in the finale. So she's kind of the final sister we touch on, too. You know, as somebody who you're like, oh, that's Avila's story.
Speaker B
I think the other wild thing about the word choose is that even within the world of using the voice, it still allows for free will.
Speaker D
In a weird way. It's like a test.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker E
But it's also an amazing character thing. Cause what I liked about it was, like, you know, what we've seen Valya do up to this point, is essentially feed people into the grinder for her master plan. But in this moment, she uses a tool for submission, to give people the moment to tell them their own truth.
Speaker B
Right.
Speaker E
They get to pick, in a way, redeems Valya a little bit to me.
Speaker B
Oh, you think so?
Speaker E
I personally think so. I think that had they not done like Avila done the thing, she would be cool with it. You know what I mean?
Speaker C
That's a really interesting point, Jordan. I actually really like that. I can see the redemption and I'm very skeptical.
Speaker B
I don't know if I would use that.
Speaker C
Redemption's not the river. Redeem Elizabeth.
Speaker B
But she tried.
Speaker A
She's.
Speaker D
I think she would like to convince everyone. Yeah, I think she would have wanted to convince Dorothea. I think she gave these Butlerian sisters within the. Dorothea's followers some time to sort it out. But I love the way she walks over and goes, I hear some of.
Speaker B
You.
Speaker D
I'm not accepting my leadership. But I think that.
Speaker E
Don't you think that's true most people with. With like, overriding ambition? I. I feel like sometimes in a way they feel alone because no one understands their ambition. And it's very alienating to them. They just. Why can't you just understand what I'm trying to do? And, you know, I. I feel for those kind of people. I mean, they, you know, sometimes they do disastrous things, but they're struggling with that.
Speaker B
Should we jump to the Sisterhood of the present?
Speaker C
Oh, yeah, the virus. We have to talk a little bit about the virus. We wanna know a little bit more about what the virus plotline. Like, is it right that it's like a nanomachine? It's like a machine virus?
Speaker D
Yeah, it's like a bioweapon with a thinking machine component. Okay, but like on a nano scale, as Aniril says. So like, you know, very micro. Yeah, scale.
Speaker C
Right, right, very micro. Well, on a thematic level, for both of us, it reminded us also of the Agony. Just like, once we got to the resolution of the Fear stuff, like, it felt like a similar test to the Agony. What do you see as the connections between Desmond's virus and the Agony? Like, what are the differences and similarities in your view?
Speaker D
I think Nazir says it, like the process. Like, she thinks it's organic and it is a bioweapon, so it's partially organic. Like, she thinks she can manipulate it. And that process is similar. I mean, that is using the Sisterhood ability to control their body on a cellular level. And as she says, only our target is different. So you're absolutely right. I mean, that's what Lila was trying to do on the table, too. I mean, everybody's trying to change their body chemistry and synthesize an antidote or find a way to defeat what's happening, but they're different, obviously. And Nazir successfully does it, but then the virus fights back, and I think that, to me, is the machine. Like, she can't keep pace with the machine, so she's super skilled, and if her hypothesis going in was correct, she might have been able to do it. Like, I. I don't think it was out of her reach to do it.
Speaker C
Yeah.
Speaker D
It's just she hid something that was.
Speaker C
Not human, and it's still horrifying to die that way. I hate every single time somebody dies like that. It's still not fun to watch. It's so fun.
Speaker D
Not at all.
Speaker B
So in this episode, we are also getting a very strong sense that threats to the Sisterhood as we know it are coming not only from without, but also from within. And we see that very clearly with Lila, who now is Dorothea. Let's listen to a clip, and then I would love to talk about it.
Speaker A
The Sisterhood has lost its way, but I will not be silenced again. In the name of all who have fallen, I will return us to our righteous path.
Speaker B
The only bummer about just playing the audio is you can't see the intensity on her face and her giant eyes. I mean, oh, my God.
Speaker D
I know. And I love that the spice changed her eye color. So, you know, her eyes are a little bit weird. And I think that's so effective.
Speaker C
You see a very effective charismatic leader like Javiko, when he is rousing the crowd. It feels like a little, you know, weaker when she does it. She's like, people move with her. That's scary. You know, that's. The whole thing is, like, what can a charismatic leader do, even with the best of intent?
Speaker D
Yes.
Speaker C
It was literally people who were, like, bashing up machinery.
Speaker D
I know. We went full crowbar.
Speaker C
Yeah, full crowbar. I love that.
Speaker D
Well, I mean, we were like, well, what's around? And they had those gardening tools, and they used it to pry open the well. So it felt like it was sort of in the story there. And it really signified for us that was Avila's little moment of kind of, like, understanding that, like, she was now kind of transferring her allegiance and she's no longer keeping this secret, and she's empowering Dorothea to do what she needs to do.
Speaker E
So they spend so much time saying, you can't bring emotion into the training. Like, we have to suppress our emotions, you know? Now that Dorothea is back, she seems to have a bone to pick. Now, emotion is like kerosene to this place. It's gonna get dirty.
Speaker B
So let's move to Seleucus Secundus, because a lot of things happen there, too. One of the big takeaways in this finale is Natalia's rise to power. And for her plan to work, she has her own daughter arrested, which I think it's fair to say both Amit and I did not see coming. Are we calling this a coup? What do y' all think?
Speaker D
Yeah, I mean, I think a soft coup. I mean, like, she's saying to him, you're gonna still be on the throne, but no more. Are you gonna be discounting me? Because Desmond and I are together, so if, you know, you wanna be a strongman, we're all gonna be talking now. And I think that very much puts Havoco on notice that he's not gonna be calling the shots, really, or he's gonna be taking her position into account.
Speaker E
I think I just wanna say to me, what's very exciting about this episode is, up until this point, one through five, I feel like there's the kind of cat and mouse relationship between Valya and Desmond. They feel like they are the two characters, the untethered characters, that are kind of waging this kind of soft war against each other using all the kind of pieces on the board in this chess mess. What's cool about this episode is that everyone else in this episode now becomes untethered. The free will question is interjected into the situation, and it's like billiard balls going all over the place. And the two people that were untethered are now tethered. And the question is whether they've become untethered to each other or they go through the mind killer experience at the end there. It's an interesting kind of dynamic to watch there. Personally, I think what happens to the emperor is kind of the epitome of that. You know what I mean? The idea that your life has been controlled and here's an act of free will you don't see coming. You know, it's a strange thing when.
Speaker D
You finally realize you've never known one.
Speaker C
True moment of freedom.
Speaker D
But I can control this.
Speaker B
No, I have always really loved that idea of, you know, so much of, like, prophecy is so dooney. I mean, obviously it's called Dune prophecy. But then the. How free will plays into that, I think is so interesting. And Comes up with the breeding index a little bit, too. Right. That idea of, like, if all goes according to plan, here's what will happen. But you can only actually account for so much, which is how you still do potentially. And in this case, literally, you know, end up with a Desmond heart.
Speaker D
Right. It's not a perfect system. You can never tamp it all down.
Speaker A
Mm.
Speaker C
I think it's also interesting that Tula sees Desmond as a victim. As soon as he fig, like, this has been done to me, we see also that he is a victim for sure. And that surgery looks horrible. Thank you for letting me see that. You feel bad for him, you know, like, you really. He's been doing a lot of horrible stuff, but you feel really awful for him. And Tula clocks it right away. She says we should help him.
Speaker D
And I think, you know, there's a bit of a. In some ways between Valya and Tula, like, their reckoning of, like, younger sister, older sister who's calling the shots, whose plan are we following? And, you know, up until this point, it's always been Valya. And this is the first time in the finale where Tula is like, I want to do it my way.
Speaker B
It's also who's keeping secrets. Right. Cause we haven't seen Tula do that. Like, that's the big reveal there, too.
Speaker D
Absolutely. Yeah. The tool is the best liar of everyone.
Speaker B
Yep.
Speaker A
You lied to me all this time. It was for his protection. From what? You think I'm a monster sister? All the carnage and deception, all by your orders. But your hold on the sisterhood wasn't fixed. I could have broken it at any time. Why didn't I? Why? Because we're the same, you and I. Two wolves born to feed with no care for the cost. If my son had the potential that Aneril promised, he deserved a better fate than us.
Speaker E
You can make the argument, you know, a lot of Valya's life, unbeknownst to her, has been controlled by this lie. You know what I mean?
Speaker B
Ooh, that's cool.
Speaker E
Valya and Desmond, who have seemed like the free agents, are now, like, you know, not so free. And, you know, and everyone else is sort of bursting out of their chains, and it's, you know, Totally. That's also part of the emotional reckoning of this whole episode. You know what I mean?
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker E
It just gets exponentially worse and worse.
Speaker C
The show is so good, guys. I mean, it's so good. Desmond, like, you feel like he's so free, and it's totally. You're Totally. Right. That at the end you're like, this guy seems to have multiple levels of no choice. And he's searching for a certain level of. I don't know what he's searching for, but anything that we might be searching for, meaning, you know, connection, like, you know, purpose. And obviously he does horrible things, but.
Speaker E
Well, he's not wielding the sword. He is the sword. I mean, and. And that.
Speaker C
Right, right, yeah, that's the irony, right? He becomes the tool that his mom was trying to stop him from being.
Speaker E
This is the tragic fate of the guy, I think. He walks in and in the first episode actually thinking that he has these abilities. Like, this is true. Like, you know, I mean. You know, I mean, like, this is a thing that's happened to him. And I don't know how much of it is true. You know what I mean? I mean, that's gotta blow your stack when you understand that.
Speaker D
And what does it mean for this child to feel chosen? Like, chosen by Shai Hulud? Like, why does that story work on him? You know, like somebody who felt rejected, abandoned, not good enough, not worthy. You know, like, having a life he doesn't understand. And, you know, I hope we get to peel back more layers on that. But, like, the idea that he would believe his own myth, you know, on some level, only to realize, like, oh, my God, like, it's not a gift from God, it's a thinking machine. It's a.
Speaker B
He is what he's been trying to destroy.
Speaker D
He is what he's been trying to destroy. It's like, how do you metabolize that? You know, for him, I think it's gonna be a very powerful journey he's on, because that's a lot to reckon with, I think.
Speaker B
Yeah, totally. There are so many reveals in this episode, and I would actually love to know at what point you conceived of, like, all of them. But anyway, the one I think we should focus on is about Desmond either being a thinking machine or at least having elements of thinking machine inside of him. At what point did you realize that that was gonna be part of this story? I mean, it really adds so many layers.
Speaker D
I mean, I think that was, like, very baked into his character from early on, because I think that there had to be an explanatory mechanism on the table for this power that he was gonna be manifesting. And I think self consciously decided that, like, he would, you know, arrive with a mystery and arrive with a story and a story that was kind of mythic. He was almost like a prophet, almost like A Rasputin figure coming, you know, a sense of some kind of a mystical Arrakis power we don't understand. But I think as that was being constructed, what was also right underneath it was like the understanding that there was, yes, another mystery, but a more insidious mystery, and that the sisterhood would uncover that layer.
Speaker C
Does he know that he has that thing in his eye after that moment, did he also see that vision?
Speaker D
In my mind, I think that he is only in a position now where he's gonna start reckoning with that component. I think he believed.
Speaker B
So he did not know up until now.
Speaker D
Yeah, like a little more like that.
Speaker B
Yeah, that's right. I would love to talk a little bit about Velya and Desmond and what Valya sees when she is having her moment of. Can we call it infection. That tracks, right?
Speaker D
Yeah.
Speaker B
Which is when she goes back to this moment that was referred to kind of obliquely a couple times in episode three. And at the time, I was a little bummed that we didn't actually get to see it, but we get to see it here. And it is the origin of the voice, which is also pretty profound. Of course. It also has to deal with her brother, Griffin, about whom she has a lot of very complicated feelings, including some sense of guilt, I would say. Why there and then?
Speaker D
Well, we were dying to see it, too. I mean, like, you know, and I mean, if this is activating Valya's fear and what is her primal fear? Losing Griffin. Seeing him, you know, under the ice and just felt so powerful.
Speaker E
I would also say that the other cool thing that Alison and I were talking about. Alison, you could probably talk about this more eloquently than I can, but just this idea of, like, you know, obviously it being, you know, Griffin falling through the ice is, you know, kind of a foundational fear, a thing of panic. But also being back in that place and being lost in that place, I also think is an equally horrifying fate for Valya. Cause it's lack of opportunity. That's what she was looking at on the bluff when she had her conversation with Griffin about, like, there's nothing out here for us. And am I stuck on this planet? Like, am I not gonna. You know, when Dorothea threatens her, if you don't get with the sisterhood, you're gonna go back to your. I mean, just that. That fate alone is also terrifying to her, and it feeds into these fears. Her ambition.
Speaker D
I think that's so well put. I mean, yes. I think her fear that she will amount to nothing that it is just Lankaveil, that is nothingness. Nothingness. Nothingness is definitely activated. I think her guilt over. Did she cause Griffin's death? You know, which is what she basically killed Evgeny for. Kind of insinuating like, you know, that sense of like, you know, she can't, she can't allow herself to really let that in. And it has to be the Atreides. She can't internalize that. But here it is in her kind of most intimate, sort of peeling back of her fears. You see that her guilt is there too. And then she has to become nothing. She has to let it pass through her. She has to. She has to let that fear go. She has to, you know, in some ways, and it's a little like a woo woo, I guess, but like just that idea of like, she has to kind of like erase herself, like so that there's nothing for the virus to latch onto as fear. And that I think is what she always. It's like the opposite of her ambition is her annihilation. And she does it.
Speaker E
Not yet.
Speaker A
It's okay.
Speaker B
I saved you.
Speaker C
You have to let go.
Speaker A
You have to let go of your fears. That's it. That's it. Not yet. Not yet.
Speaker B
Not yet.
Speaker C
You did this.
Speaker A
You killed me.
Speaker B
You killed us all.
Speaker C
I love. It's not like there's one fear.
Speaker D
So cool.
Speaker C
So good. The last scene of the season is Valya Kiran. Inez. We haven't spent as much talking about them, but, you know, lots of stuff happening there too. They land on Arrakis. Why end here?
Speaker D
Well, it just felt very fitting as a place because Arrakis has haunted kind of the show. It's been exerting its pull from a distance. It's, you know, very alive and people's in the world of our show, but it's not present. We're not on Arrakis really. I mean, except through Desmond's subjectivity briefly and the idea that Vollywood now armed with the knowledge that there's more to Desmond's story, kind of go back to where his story started, you know, or at least maybe not started, but where this power started. Or, you know, what is this story of he was swallowed by a worm. And she's now gonna go and figure out a little bit more about that. And so Boots on the Ground in Arrakis just felt like a really exciting thematically, like a cool place to see, to have Valya sort of touched down on. It feels like it's promises a lot. Like, I think that we. This show is very much committed to being in the wider imperium and taking you to other places. But I do think there is story to tell there.
Speaker E
All the potential.
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker E
What stories we can tell.
Speaker C
We are very excited. We really are looking forward to it being more in this world and your particular take on it. It has been such an amazing season. Thank you both for joining us.
Speaker B
Thank you so much for taking your time.
Speaker D
It's been really fun.
Speaker B
And now we're going to hear a conversation I got to have with Olivia Williams, who is phenomenal. She plays Tula Harkonnen.
Speaker C
All right, let's listen to.
Speaker B
Olivia. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Speaker A
Thank you. I'm excited to be here.
Speaker B
Excited to talk with you. I'd love to hear what your relationship was like with Dune before you took on this project.
Speaker A
I'm afraid I was one of the ignorant ones. My introduction to how significant it is to people all over the world is now a bit of a legend. An amazing man called who put in all my TV and Wi fi and sound in my house. When I told him I was playing Tula Harkonnen, he knelt at my feet. So I realized that I needed to do a bit more homework about what I was taking on when I took the job. And he was my education. Oh, my God.
Speaker B
That's so perfect. Charlie informing you of how real.
Speaker A
Here's Charlie. And I want the word to go out because I've said I will name check him. Charlie was my Dune education. Oh, my God, that's so funny.
Speaker B
So, yeah. At what point did you realize, I mean, there's the Dune of it all, but then there's also the Harkonnen of it all. And the fact that you are taking on a very significant name in a very significant franchise.
Speaker A
Yeah. I was quite pleased that we didn't have to do the ball cap thing. That our poor, our descendants have a. A pretty rough ride in the makeup chair. No, I was lucky. We got to have hair. But also tell the story of how we became so angry and embittered. And I think there is a serious point to be made about society's outcasts and why they have been cast out. And what happens if you alienate people because of their surname.
Speaker B
Well, yeah. What has it been like to watch the show? I imagine it's gotta be really fascinating, partly because there is the Tula that you play and then there is young Tula. And getting to actually see those scenes now has to be really interesting, too, right?
Speaker A
Absolutely. I mean, it's almost Sort of shaming. Hats off to Emma, because she. She and Jess, they have watched us and taken mannerisms and habits and things that we do, and it's so beautifully observed. So I haven't had a chance to thank her for her extraordinary performance and to make me look good, in a way, because if you haven't got the backstory, and if the backstory isn't emotional and truthful, then to play the embittered older woman who's inherited this story counts for nothing. So she really gave me a beautiful kind of propulsion into the future. She was cold as ice and yet passionate and loving and stuck, you know, literally sort of stuck upon the horns of a dilemma. You see her absolutely torn in two by her emotions and her loyalty. And she's no less angry than Valya.
Speaker B
No.
Speaker A
As so often happens in families, one person shows anger, you know, with full of sound of fury, and the other person doesn't show their anger at all, but they're no less angry.
Speaker B
I think we should also obviously discuss the reveal here that Tula is Desmond's mother. Yes. At what point did you realize that that was the case?
Speaker A
I think it was one of the breadcrumbs that led me to take the role. It was up there very early on.
Speaker B
I mean, that's an enticing breadcrumb.
Speaker A
Yeah, exactly. And that was an extraordinary piece of plotting. You know, again, what a subtext to have to keep covering in your life. There's an amazing podcast on the BBC at the moment exploring the consequences of these genetic tests that you can do that people quite often give each other as Christmas presents. And what a Christmas present when two months later, you find out that your father isn't your father and your brothers and sisters aren't your brothers and sisters. And as a source for what this show does to people's lives, it's an amazing piece of real life reference as a thing to carry around in your life that so many women have had to keep secret. And a machine in the basement, like anaerool or the present of a small pot into which you spit and send off to an enormous thinking machine. Yes.
Speaker B
Yeah. The thinking machine piece is there too, right?
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, that's what's causing these interesting revelations about genetics. What a thing.
Speaker B
What a thing. Yeah. I would love to hear your reaction to the flashback scene after baby Desmond is born. This is just before Tula gives him up. Let's take a listen.
Speaker A
My sweet boy.
Speaker B
Barely in the world and already, you.
Speaker A
Know, so much sadness. You are so special. You deserve the chance to find your own path, not banish for the Harkins, the sisterhood, not mine. That's the gift I give you.
Speaker D
Be free.
Speaker B
It's a heartbreaking scene. It's also oddly hopeful. Right. I mean, it's interesting thinking about. We had a conversation with Jordan recently, and he was like, well, yeah, baby's a fresh start. Right. And then he was like, just kidding. I have two children. That's. It's never actually the case. Right. So much of the story that we're working with here is about grief and guilt and the burdens you bring along. And, you know, as you said earlier, like, the carrying around a surname. And in so many ways, this is Tula's attempt for this baby to have a fresh start, to be free from all of these things.
Speaker A
Yes. There was a man in British history called Nicholas Winton who was called the British Schindler. And he. He took many children out of Eastern Europe on trains just before the Nazis closed the borders. And he would say to parents, give me your child, and I will put them on a train and find them a home in the uk. And what kind of choice is that again? There's a famous film called Sophie's Choice. But I was thinking about, and I'm sure Emma was, too, about what kind of danger would there be that would be so dreadful that you would hand over your child to a stranger and know that their life would be better with the stranger than it would be with you?
Speaker B
It's devastating.
Speaker A
And what is the added sort of shovelful of misery on this is that danger is your name and your big sister who goes, this is gonna be great. You're having a baby. We can do this together. We can fuck up this kid as a family. And there's some elements of Handmaid's Tale, that idea, you know, that the sisterhood has. The sisterhood, this is supposed to be a piece of sort of, you know, feminist. But the sisterhood takes kids away from their mothers. Dodgy anyway, so I can see why you might want to spare your child that.
Speaker B
Do you think Tula would have been a good mother?
Speaker A
Oh, that's a good one.
Speaker B
It's tough, right? I mean, I think her intentions are good.
Speaker A
Yeah, I do. I mean, I played her as having a heart in there.
Speaker B
Yeah, well. And she has maternal instincts for Lila. You see that?
Speaker A
You know, again, I have to go back to Emma's performance. She was in the. In the domestic situation, and we had amazing Polly Walker playing our mum. Yeah. It didn't look like a very happy Home. But my husband had a very tricky upbringing. There was love and chaos in there, and he's become the most extraordinary father. Sometimes you become a parent by watching what to do from your parents, and sometimes you become a parent by watching not to do and choosing to break a cycle. So maybe. Maybe she'd have broken the cycle. Yeah. I feel excited. If there is more to come.
Speaker B
Yes.
Speaker A
If. If Travis ever gives me a chance to give him a hug.
Speaker B
What do you think about. I mean, something I found myself wondering about, too, is clearly Tula believes the sisterhood is not a good place to raise a child. Do you think she ever considers just leaving herself? Like, why is she still there? Is she just that intertwined with Valya at this point that she can't possibly conceive of a life without her?
Speaker A
Well, that is the dilemma, the oxymoron, to use a really pretentious word, of Tula. Because let's not forget, she went off and hung out with the Atreides and slaughtered them all. As I said, she shows her anger in different ways. She's not raging against the machine. You know, she is someone who thinks and plots and works. So I think her taking second place and putting up with being second in command isn't necessarily submission.
Speaker B
Yes.
Speaker A
And just because she doesn't say it out loud and slit people's throats, she injects them with poison instead.
Speaker B
Something that keeps coming up over the course of the interviews in this season is, and I think the finale exemplifies it so perfectly, is that Tula is perhaps the best liar in this universe.
Speaker A
Don't you think? Yes, I want to. I'm very competitive. If it's a competition, I want to win it.
Speaker D
So.
Speaker A
Yes. Can I take that prize home, please? The best liar. Yes. Yes. Yes, you can. Thank.
Speaker B
So let's talk about the final showdown between Valya and Tula and Desmond. I would love to hear what it was like to film that scene. Tula kind of once again comes to Valya's rescue, which is really interesting.
Speaker A
Yeah. There's the humorous version, which was. Emily and I found the set very like the underground parking lot of the National Theater, which is a place we both know very well because we both worked there and both lost our cars spending hours wandering around having done a play. So even the texture of the ground and the sort of oily puddles were very like an underground car park we know very well. So that was the most striking thing. It was like, oh, God, we've got to go back to the National Theater car Park and shoot that scene again. Cause we actually shot it twice. It was extraordinary. It's an extraordinary moment. And I had to really kind of. I took poor Jordan and Alison to task. I was like, so I've got in a spaceship and I've gone to another planet and I'm looking for my sister and I come down into the National Theater car park and there is the body of my son and my sister who've just had a kind of face off where, you know, one has infected the other with a deadly virus and one's dying from the effort of giving the virus to the other and the other's dying of the virus. You know, who do you run to? It's like the worst. You know, this awful thing that you put a dog in the middle of a field and say, okay, which one? Which one do you prefer? Um, yeah. So I go to my sister. Interesting. First and try and pull her back from the brink of death. And then I stop my sister from stabbing my son in the eye with her special dagger. You know, I went through all the podcasts and real life events I could muster and I couldn't find a precedent for that one.
Speaker B
So further on in that scene, we have a hug, which is intense and tender and there are so many layers to that one. Speaking of subtext, what were you and weren't you trying to convey in that moment?
Speaker A
It was interesting. It was a collaborative. Everybody had put their subtext on the table before we shot it. Travis was very much. He's not. He wasn't. Didn't want to. He's too angry and too embittered. And I was really happy to go for trying to go in for the long lost baby hug and it to be rejected. And, you know, I think there's a pain that only a mother can experience when the first time your child bats away your turns away from Give mummy a hug. And I speak as a mother of teenagers, so. Yeah, you know, not all reunions are happy.
Speaker B
It does seem like there's some reverse Oedipus stuff happening in that scene too, you know.
Speaker A
Oh, good, I'm glad you picked up on that. That. I mean, listen, what would you do if you found out Travis fmel was your son? You know, it's a problem if you've been following his career with interest and then you find out that he is of your loins. Oh my.
Speaker B
I mean, that is a. That is a really complicated one.
Speaker A
Yeah, but it's that thing. It's, you know, it's like he's misunderstood my boy yeah, he just killed a bunch of our people and with his crazy virus. But he's a victim. He's a victim.
Speaker B
I mean, he is. Lord knows what happened to him. Right? I mean, that's another huge question mark now.
Speaker A
Yes. Yeah. Someone really nasty in a big cloak and a hood put something horrible in his eye. It's not his fault he did that.
Speaker B
It's so empathetic. I think, too, the element of that that's so fascinating is to be reminded once again that Valya literally would not have been able to survive without Tula. Like, they are that intertwined.
Speaker A
Yes, absolutely. And Emily talks a great deal about the extraordinary connection they have, which is blood and sister and love and hate, but also the secrets they both carry and they both have. You know, if one goes down, the other goes down with her. But we do. I mean, I. Again, in families, you know, however dysfunctional the family is, they keep on going back for Sunday lunch or going back for Christmas or turning up at the ball game to have another crack at making a happy family or finding approval or finding the love that you feel. There's something that's missing from your life, trying to recreate something or to create something that's never really been there.
Speaker B
So when we had Emma and Jess Young, Valya and Tula on the podcast, we asked them who they thought was more dangerous. And I would love to know what you think, especially at this point in the end of an epic season.
Speaker A
I just want to shout out to Emily here because she plays such a beautiful game of someone. I feel like the power is kind of. I'm gonna mix some metaphors. It's kind of running through her fingers like sand, and she's trying to stop. Stop it. And then also, there's kind of nails on a blackboard. She's kind of like. You know that thing in cartoons where it's just like she's. She's trying to hold on, and she's trying to stem every kind of hole in the dike. There's another metaphor. And, yeah, she's trying to hold on to power, whereas I feel Tula, selfishly, for me, for my character, is just getting into her stride. She's like, okay, so I did this dreadful thing. I did this thing that was the biggest sacrifice I could make for the sisterhood. And then I have been dormant. I'm like one of those. Those plants that. Yes, is under the desert for 20 years, and then it rains and it blossoms.
Speaker B
I can't wait. Olivia, it is such a pleasure to watch you on the show and it has been so lovely to get to talk to you too. Thank you so much.
Speaker A
Thank you. Pleasure. Nice talking to you.
Speaker B
We are very excited to have as our final guest for the season, production designer Tom Meyer. Tom, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker F
Thank you. I'm super happy to be here.
Speaker C
Tom, we've been asking everyone this season, what was your relationship to Dune prior to coming onto the show?
Speaker F
I think, like, probably everybody who's been speaking on these podcasts and that you've interviewed, we all read the book in some form at some point. And I definitely tackled it in high school. And so I backed up and I read both trilogies for this series. And it was kind of an amazing mind expanding experience to see the thought and the history that had been put into the series that really backs up all the worlds that you get to when you finally get 10,000 years later to Paul Atreides. You have all this groundwork and foundation. So as kind of starting at points to have these thousands of pages of kind of text to kind of draw from gave us this kind of real firm, you know, as I say, foundation to kind of build upon and expand and to experiment from.
Speaker B
Tom, one thing we have talked about over the course of the season that we have really admired with this show is that you can tell the sets were built out very elaborately. This isn't a lot of like standing around in front of a green screen stuff.
Speaker F
Right.
Speaker B
And I think you can tell that, especially with Zalusa Secundus. And we heard you say in an interview that it took 400 people to build the palace. Is that right?
Speaker F
Yeah, we actually had between the carpenters, the furniture makers, painters, plasters, all the different craftspeople, including the art departments and all the departments that actually had to design and think up all of these ideas, there were in excess of 8 or 900 people.
Speaker B
Oh my God.
Speaker F
And then when you add in your outside vendors and your freelance vendors, that probably goes up to over 1000, 1200 people.
Speaker B
That's amazing.
Speaker F
I think of it in many respects of like, when you're building a city of any sort, a world of any sort, it's not just one person or one idea that creates it. I always say it's not one architect who designs a city, it's many architects, it's many generations of people. And so it was important to bring in a lot of artists, a lot of talent and visions, all kind of working and laboring to create one unified world under one unified idea. It does on some level, have, I think, an impact, hopefully on the actors as well, that they feel that they're not spending any excess time having to imagine their space or imagine what they're looking at. They can concentrate on telling the story.
Speaker C
There's so many inspirations you could take. I think Salusa is an especially interesting planet because it's an imperial planet. It's the head of an empire. And are there any specific things, especially things we made now that we're at the finale here and you can spoil things for us. Any specific touches or references in there that you could tell us about? In the production design of Seleucus Secundus, that was like a reference from something real or from the books?
Speaker F
Well, I think to create the planet or the city of Zimea and the world of Seleucid and the palace in particular, it's important to remember that the people that populate the planets and the galaxies of Dune are human beings. They're not space aliens that happen to look like human beings. They are human beings. So when we looked at recreating the sense of history on Seleucus Secundus, which does and is intentionally referenced as the most Earth, like, of planets, right there we have this kind of. Of warm, light, warm stone, the materials that should feel familiar to the audience as earthly materials. Then in creating the palace, what we did is, without really being tricky, we just rethought what does the periods of the Roman, the Greek, you know, Greco Roman architecture. How is that going to transform? Because it's really informed all of our modern Western civilization and architecture up until this point. How does that go forward 10,000 years from now? What does a crown molding or an architrave or a column even look like? And how does it feel again? Familiar, but yet foreign or alien or futuristic?
Speaker C
Well, I'll say one thing is just like in my reread of the books, just like the Atreides are Greek, like, they're literally Greek descendants. There's also, like, of course, the whole Greek tragedy of the whole Dune universe. So hearing you talk about, like, Greek architecture in there also is helpful, like, for.
Speaker F
Absolutely. And you contrast that to the coolness of Wallach 9, which is a planet that's written as being a dead planet that had undergone a thermonuclear war from the great machine wars, that really tells you immediately. So when the audience sees that cool, cold, gray environment of Wallock 9, you know exactly where you are.
Speaker B
Yeah. It's damp, it's dark.
Speaker C
Yeah.
Speaker F
And the idea in the books is that when they got to Wallach 9, the sisterhood is a group that's in exile. They're kind of bequeathed this series of buildings by Joseph Vanport, who precedes the Spacing Guild. Now, I'm going really deep into the deep world.
Speaker C
I love it. At the end here, we're getting the really deep lore.
Speaker F
Alison and I had some really long conversations where we would get into the deep geek, and we'd be like, well, what color was? You know, when we were talking? And we were like, well, it's one book, you know, wow.
Speaker B
Let's talk a little more about Wallach 9, because it is such a tonally different shift from Seleucus Secundus when it comes to the school in particular. What was your inspiration for that?
Speaker F
That's a good question. So the idea to give it a sense of history was to make them look like buildings that had a utilitarian future, because these buildings were industrial leftovers that had survived the Thermonuclear war. And when we first see it in the Young Sisterhood version that takes place 30 years prior to. You see that it's even a more bare, stripped down version, it's really at the beginning of Raquela's strategy to make this into a center of the sisterhood and center of the universe, and basically a controlling source for all of the universe. When we find it again 30 years later, it's warmed up a bit, you could say. Of sorts.
Speaker B
Yeah, a little.
Speaker F
Some carpets and rugs. You know, the idea that Alice and I remember speaking about when we were talking about designing this space was that this is a school. The young girls and the women that are studying here, they've been sent here by prestigious families. And so it was important to make it feel as though that it had this kind of imposing sense of character and also a sense of kind of some sort of scholastic or some sort of structured environment that they weren't just left here, for instance. Also, if we look at the great courtyard of the well, again, when we first see it in the young Sisterhood, it's barren. It's pretty stark, as we know from the great nutrients that the well has been fed with of all these dead sisters.
Speaker B
Oh, is that how we're such a polite way to.
Speaker F
I'm trying to be nice about it. You know, we have this kind of sickly, almost moldish moss that's grown up around it. So when we see it later, it looks kind of beautiful and green and it has kind of more of a light, but it is sickly at the end because we know that it's fed with all of the blood of the sisterhood.
Speaker C
And I will say, those green lines, they were very evocative. I was like, there's already hidden thinking machines on the bottom. There's something feeding this area that doesn't look good. It's natural, but it's not a good kind of natural.
Speaker F
Yeah. At the core of the sisterhood, there's this kind of foulness. Right.
Speaker B
So was that courtyard a build or was it.
Speaker F
That was a build.
Speaker B
Yeah, it was. It's beautiful.
Speaker F
We used an old structure. There was a structure that had been built Pre World War II that was intended to be a church. It was never consecrated and it was abandoned Pre World War II. So we were able to use some foundational work to kind of build out the space. And it was fun to kind of have something of that scale for this kind of center kind of heart. You could see how they're always having to cross through it to get to different parts of the school. So you're always having to walk past what we find out in episode six. This is kind of. Of horrible. Secret and graveyard.
Speaker C
Well, you know, we could honestly have. We wish we had talked to you the whole season so we could ask about every setting. It feels like there's so much to cover, but, you know, as we're leaving you here, let's say these planets are real. Let's say you're daydreaming on your set thinking about what you would want to visit. Which of the planets that you helped create would you want to visit? Hmm.
Speaker F
That's a great question. Well, I like the snow, and we don't see a whole lot of Lankavel.
Speaker B
We see enough to get the sense of it, though, I think.
Speaker F
But I think creating that village for Lankavel was pretty amazing. I think that. Salusa Secundus. What's really cool about the city of Zimea there in Seleucia is so much of it. What we're seeing is at night, which I think is intentional. So there's so much more to explore and such a mess space to think about. It's a pretty tough world to live in, so. Pretty happy here.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker D
Yeah.
Speaker B
Well, that's why we're visiting and not living, because that would be.
Speaker A
That would be tough.
Speaker F
I'll be honest. They're really exciting worlds. They're all kind of unending in their abilities to kind of go down and explore. There's so much that we hinted at. That's the thing that I think is really enjoyable about science fiction is that as much as you can dream and think up, you can go and explore.
Speaker B
So, Tom, thank you so much for talking with us today.
Speaker F
Thanks for the time. I do appreciate it.
Speaker B
That's all for this week and this season. Thank you all so much for joining us on this incredible journey. You can rewatch all of Dune Prophecy on HBO or streaming exclusively on max.
Speaker C
Be sure be sure to subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss an episode. And if you like what you're hearing, don't forget to leave a rating and review on your podcast player of choice and find us on the Dune Prophecy.
Speaker B
Social Media handles the official Dune Prophecy podcast is produced by HBO in collaboration with Pineapple Street Studios. I'm Greta Johnson and you can find me on socials.
Speaker C
Gretamjohnsen and I'm Amedal Yakburn. You can find me at radbrowndads. Our executive producers for Pineapple street are Gabrielle Lewis, J.N. barry and Bari Finkel. Our lead engineer for the show is Hannis Brown. Pineapple's head of sound and engineering is Raj Makhija. Pineapple's senior audio engineers are Marina Paiz and Pedro Alvira. This episode is mixed by Hannis Brown.
Speaker B
Our editor is Darby Maloney, and our producers are Ben Goldberg and Melissa Akiko Slaughter.
Speaker C
Special thanks to Becky Rowe, Allison Cohen and Erin Kelly from the MAX podcast team. And an extra special thanks to all of our guests this season.
Speaker B
And an extra special thanks to all all the other great people who helped create this podcast. Thanks to Kelsey Llewellyn and for marketing, Emily Servodidio and Paris Ali Yazdi. Thanks to the MAX concept and design team, Lynn Kim, Brett Kraus, Tom Haskerd, Marta Duart Diaz, Ryan Cronin, Kendall Thomas, Eden McDevitt, Karen Guan and Linda Gao. And to our legal team, Nina Festa and Aliza Block. And of course, thanks to all of you for listening. Thank you for coming along with us on this wild ride.
Speaker C
Can we do the Voice one last time?
Speaker B
Yeah, Yeah, I think we probably should.
Speaker C
Sisterhood above all. I think my voice dropped out a little bit there.