Culture
Electric Bookaloo: A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms Round Table
In this episode of Electric Bookaloo, the hosts delve into the intricacies of 'A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms' with a focus on the 'Mystery Night' tale. They explore themes of cons...
Electric Bookaloo: A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms Round Table
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Interactive Transcript
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Welcome back to Game of Thrones 2 Electric!
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This week we tie a bow on the mystery night with Carol Parrish Jamison, Philip
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Haberkerne and Valerie Garver. This will be my last podcast on this feed for a
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while. Hope to come back to cover a storm of swords at some point. Can't say when
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that will be. Of course, Stephen I will continue to cover movies over at
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properly Howard. This week we covered a big trouble in little China, which is
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one of Steve's favorites. As always you can reach me at bookatballedmove.com.
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All right, without further ado, here is Val and Carol and Phil.
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All right, so with me today, Phil will Haberkerne, Valerie Garver, Carol Parrish Jamison.
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And I'd like my listeners to associate your names, so I just going to have you introduce
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yourselves. Let's start with you Phil. Hi listeners, I'm Phil coming to you from Boston today.
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Hi, I'm Carol coming to you from Savannah, Georgia. And hi, I'm Val Garver and I'm coming to you
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from Decalbe, Illinois. All right, well we're going to be covering the mystery night today,
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but I do want to start with the end of this one sort. I got a call from my sister
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and Tara was adamant that I was reading the end of the story wrong. And then I got an
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email from Jennifer, who's a listener and Jennifer takes the view that my sister takes.
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And that is that at the end of this one sword, dunk receives the lock of the braid from Rohan.
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I guess he receives it from her instead of taking it from her. So if you don't mind, I'm going
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to read this section and you tell me what you think about this. All right, so this is, I've got
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the Bantam books hardback. This is a page 231. He learned more about kissing in a moment than he
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had ever known from watching. But when they finally broke apart, he drew his dagger. I know what I
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want to remember you by, my lady. Full stop. Egg was waiting for him at the gatehouse mounted on
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the handsome new sorrow, pal, free and holding Mastra's lead. When dunk trotted up to them on thunder,
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the boy looked surprised and she said she wanted to give you a new horse, sir.
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Even high-born ladies don't get all they want. Dunk said as they rode out across the drawbridge,
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it wasn't a horse I wanted. The moat was so high, it was threatening to overflow its banks.
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I took something else to remember her by instead. A lock of that red hair, he reached under his cloak
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and brought out the braid and smiled. All right, so here's my question to you. Did Dunk take the braid?
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Without her consent or did he off-page, we didn't hear part of this conversation,
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this is what Tara and Jennifer both think. He asked for the braid and she gave it willingly.
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I think it's ambiguous. I really do. Thank you, Professor.
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You know. Isn't that like the charm of literature, right?
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I guess. I mean, you're right. It's off-page and so it leads to the question, but how are you
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reading this, Val? I read it as he took it. I think because I think that's what we agreed
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in the last podcast, right? When you and I discussed it. My impression is, but because he says he
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took it, he doesn't say it was she gave it to me. So I guess I would take him at his word,
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because Dunk doesn't usually misrepresent himself. Interesting. Okay. So when he says, I
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took something else to remember her by, that's what he says. I took something else to remember her
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by and then he says a lock of that red hair. He goes out of his way to say that she doesn't get
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what she wants in the end. She wanted to give the horse, but instead she gave the braid,
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gave in and scare quotes. Sorry. Phil, I'm just going to, I know we talked about this before. I'm
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curious what you think about this question. So I think the fact that he says she didn't get what
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she wanted. I think the fact that again, I took something and then in the illustrated version,
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which is the one I have, if you look at the picture, they're going in for the kiss and he's got one
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hand around her back and a really firm grip on her braid. So that to me suggests an element of
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of taking, not asking. So while it is ultimately probably ambiguous, I'm going to still stick with,
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this was not an ask, this was a take. Okay. You read the illustrated one. So I do wonder if that
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also affected me. Interesting. Because I agree with you. You and I have the same edition. I can see
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your cover. All right. Carol, when we were emailing, you mentioned something that I thought was
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very interesting, a story by Alexander Pope. And I'm wondering if you could help us with that.
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Yeah, I have a little different perspective on this. I, um, I don't know, I don't know that she
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willingly offered it to him, but I do not think she objected. I don't think it was a rape of the
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lock kind of moment or a personal moment when Kratian detties, first of all, takes the ring from a lady.
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Lady Rohen is spicy and she had slapped, uh, done earlier. So I think he would have a fat lip or
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something if she objected. So I did, he may have taken it, but I don't think she objected.
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Oh, okay. Good. All right. I'm curious why, why this particular moment
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called that story to mind the, the Pope's story. The thought that maybe he did take it because it
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is ambiguous. And so I was thinking of that poem and all of the chaos that arose when, you know,
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the hair, you know, is something very precious to the woman for Lady Rohen. This is something
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that's very distinctive to her. Yeah. So I think if she had been really upset about it, she would have
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acted like, isn't it think it's Belinda in that, in that poem. Okay. Well, this was a point, my
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sister, Tara made. She said, if he took it by force, she probably doesn't allow him to leave or
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she sends men after her, after him or something like that. I, the way that I'm looking at is,
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I think she knows that she's wronged him in a number of ways. And maybe she thinks,
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you know, maybe I deserve that. I'm not sure. I don't know. This is all kind of speculation.
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But I told my sister I would ask you all. And, and I did. And I appreciate your candid responses.
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So thank you very much. I don't know if I'm changing my mind on this. I think,
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I think that he stole the kiss, right? It stole the kiss is kind of antiquated language, right?
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But in the, in sort of like antiquated language, he didn't ask for the kiss. He just took the kiss,
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right? And she kissed him back. And I think in the context of him taking the kiss, maybe he does
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do the same with the braid. But anyway, that's just my reading on this.
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We're here to talk about the mystery night. And so I think I should do a synopsis of the mystery
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night as a story. I tried to do a summary of the entire story. So I'm probably going to leave a
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lot out, but I'll just read my synopsis.
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Dunk and Egg follow knights and hedge knights to the better well-weddinged for a chance to joust and
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earn a bit of money. Dunk learns that the event is a front for treason, and overhears two men
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scheming against the king. He is befriended by a knight called the Fiddler who has lordly qualities
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and promises Dunk a white cloak. Dunk is knocked out in his first joust and learns that someone has
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paid to kill him. He discovers that the Fiddler is Damon Blackfire who has designs on the iron
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throne. He also learns that Egg has been kidnapped. After another failed attempt to kill him from
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Alan Coxha, Sird Manor Plum helps Dunk fight Egg. This leads to a fight in the septward Egg has
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cowed butterwell and has received his confession. Then Dunk demands justice for Sir Glendon who has
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been framed for theft and murder. After a trial by combat, Damon is unhorst and Glendon is vindicated.
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The hand of the king arrives with an army and puts down the new rebellion,
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lord blood or even enterrogates, Dunk, but allows Egg to remain a squire to our
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hedge knight hero. Let's start with you observation question about the story.
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So I was thinking a lot about the character of Damon and sort of entering the tournament under false
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pretenses and with false heraldry and sort of why he might have done that. This got made down a
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rabbit hole and I came up on King Edward III who used to do this in the context of the Hundred
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Years War was either enter battles or also sometimes tournaments again in incognito fashion because
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he wanted people to actually try against him. So I was fascinated by this but I'm just curious
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what we think about what other people would have to say about Damon's sort of strategy for this
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elaborate subterfuge and why he's committed to it and how other people are managing this performance
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of prowess in the context of the tournament. That's interesting. I thought of the same example actually
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because I mean it's like a famous story right from the middle ages of him doing that.
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I guess the question is I don't know like I don't know how common that is but it's a great call
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out. I have to think Martin was thinking of that right when he did that but I don't know maybe
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our literature expert here. Some good examples of this. I would imagine in literature it's more
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common yeah. Yeah it's a very common device in literature and in the tournament I went down a rabbit
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hole with all of this as well because the tournament is one thing that and Jowls were literature
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and history influenced each other a lot that you know that real life tournaments tried to
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mimic literature vice versa. So in literature it's a very common device. I've just finished
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teaching Malaries with Mort d'Orther and time and time again Lance a lot shows up in incognito
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to it gives him a chance to prove his prowess without people knowing who he is. So really common
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device in literature. So I was really interested to ask all of you about his occurrence in history.
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Yeah and I mean I think the story is I'm going to have to remember this is about the French
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are trying to retake the city of Calais and Jafoît de Charnée is the French commander and he is
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actually renowned for his chivalry but actually it attempts to bribe his way into the city. Edward
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III hears about this and comes to the city and sort of has the commander of the city guards sort of
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you know openly accept the bribe but then betray Charnée and then there's a sort of pitched battle
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and Edward III is again not in not marked as a royal figure in this and they go through the combat
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and eventually I think he actually recognizes somebody on the losing side is the most chivalric
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fighter of the day. So again it's hard to know how much of this is real in terms of actual
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historical events but there are other moments where Edward also appears to have participated in
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these kind of feats of arms again in disguise and so I would say naturally he is inspired by this
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romantic literature right to sort of take this on and I vowed did you find any other instances this
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was the one again it kind of immediately popped up and I was like oh this is so fun. Yeah this
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is the one that also popped up for me and I thought of it immediately I did not go down the the
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deep hole of research on figuring as the early medieval so I might be slightly off the hook but
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the one thing I would say is like I do talk a lot with my students and kind of point out just how
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much like for example chroniclers like Jean Fosar who wrote about the hundred years more in a
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lot of events like this how influenced he was by romance right and that there are definitely
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scholars who have argued that almost the presentation of history is shaped by literature and vice
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versus it's really sometimes I think quite difficult to know where one ends and one begins so yes
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I don't know like I just I have this I'm not sure I would want to say how common it was I but
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it's such a great example I think it's the one that everyone would think of first at least historians
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so yeah and for this story in particular the disguise almost serves two purposes it's like one we get to
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actually see this guy see his martial feats without having to worry about like are people pulling
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punches you know are people taking spills up from their horses because they know who's on the other
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side so I think there's that but the other part of it is we know that this guy wants to start a new
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rebellion and so traveling in cognito is probably advantageous to him he's not ready to reveal his army
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in full force yet he's got to gather the troops under the guys at this wedding and by the end of
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the story he is willing to reveal himself but when he first meets Dung he's not quite ready to do that
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yet and I think also though there's this element that if he can enter into this tournament which it
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seems is pretty second-rate like compared to what we saw in the first novella you know they're not
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great champions there particularly and yet if he can win and if he can get the dragon's egg
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that partially makes up for his lack of black fire the sword and and it's a performance of a certain
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kind of you know martial valor and prowess that that clearly the sitting king people don't think
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he has right so this is a way for him to gain status that he can then say well I am a true king
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because I am a true knight because I have won these you know because I've entered the tournament
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and been victorious so there's a part of it that I see the strategy of this is how you unveil
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arrival claimants of the throne even if he gets completely housed you know by a 16 year old
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baseborn character when it when the chips are down so it's an interesting it's like a high risk move
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in some ways and we see people trying to manage it but it still ultimately does not work out
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so I guess my observation is is also about Damon and that is that he's a very interesting
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pretender and he reminded me of a pretender I can't really imagine George R. Martin knew much about
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and that is a good devolved who from 532 to 535 kind of shows up in the mayor of ingene kingdoms
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claiming to be a prince right and this is a time a little bit similar to the novella we see here
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where you know there's just a lack of really clear good heirs right one king is childless and then
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there are two child kings within these kingdoms these allied mayor of ingene kingdoms and so in
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some senses he's you can imagine like he's showing up and it's awfully convenient like so people I
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mean historians really don't know for sure right is he legit was he a legit member of that family
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was he related to them was he legitimately born like what is the story here um but so many elements
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of the stories reminded me of each other not least the fact that I will say in this novella for
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whatever reason I had so much trouble sometimes keeping track of the character yeah like it was really
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there's a lot of characters in this particular one and just to kind of keep track weight which night
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is which um was a little challenging and I know when students read the the source for this is
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Gregory of Tours histories um which is a long text but then it only makes up a short part of it
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but um this particular tale is often as you imagine really appealing to students and you have
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them read it and they just are like oh my gosh we cannot keep track of all these people it's similar
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in that way very complex and I kind of appreciated that like in terms of um it's kind of parallels
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to history so I thought this was like a really good pretender story like not just like that he's
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hidden but also that he's not really hidden like you know um you can talk about his clothes too
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eventually but like I think he doesn't know a good job of hiding who he is at all actually in a sense
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like dunk you know as the protagonist it's quite good because you know he's always presenting
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himself as oh you know I'm thick I'm not smart and so that lets the reader kind of feel smarter
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and figuring things out before he does right um and you just think how did he how does he not
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figure this out sooner right because I feel like like he's not great at hiding who he is um but
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good enough all this it's kind of much more out in the open um and not necessarily like oh I'm
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waiting to read a rebellion it's not quite the same thing but it's this issue of identity how do you
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prove who you are and I think that also relates to um the son of fireball the alleged son of fireball
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right um how do you prove who you are because that tale also reminded me of good devolved if someone
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showing up and saying but no really I'm this person's son and therefore I deserve the following
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things and not everyone believing it and so I thought this was a really great case of thinking
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about how do you prove who you are in a world where you don't have things like passports or
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kind of a paper trail to in a sense to prove a photos or something and even now I mean even in a
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world where we have those things you can still have people who can pretend to be someone else right
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so I was recently reading that New York Times story about how the Soviet Union cultivated spies
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in Brazil right like so this is like a good example um you can have your right passport
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writer a legit birth certificate and not be who you are too so I just thought that was kind of an
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interesting aspect of the story Carol I want to go back to the to the notion of the tournament
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because I was thinking about in the world of romance the tournament is such a flower event that
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that displays prowess and there might be nights who are cowardly who don't obey the rules
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but I began wondering you know Martin presents this world where there's gambling and all that
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this kind of a city underside of the tournament the world of the tournament and so I began
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wondering you know how much did that actually happen historically and so I want I want to ask you
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guys but I did a little searching through literature first and I can find really nothing other than
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cowardly nights except interestingly in chance there's a night's tale when the two when the two
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teams that are opposing each other there there's two cousins are fighting each other they have
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large teams that they brought together and in that work the audience is looking at the two sides
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and they're kind of summing them up like oh some people went with the guy with the ball head and
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some of them went with the guy with the broad shoulders and the word that Chaucer used is
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divining and I wonder you can't help imagining that maybe someone would place a bat here and there
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as well and so I was wondering to what extent that might that might actually happen and I look back
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at William Marshall the biography of William Marshall and I found a an obscure herald named Henry
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De Leon who had written a little bit about cheating internaments and how he thought that that
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was such a terrible thing but I was just fascinated that that Martin is presenting this underbelly
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of the tournament and I love your thoughts on that I know do you want to take this one Phil?
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So it's one of those things where I was like well of course people must have gambled on tournaments
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yeah for sure but I don't have any I don't have any any sources that I can immediately be like oh
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yes here's where it's being discussed but the idea of it is like as an economy and so here you
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think of Uthor right what's Uthor underleaf is that his last name? Yeah right in this idea of like a
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professional turning night like that we certainly know is real and you have people who sort of travel
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around and are either looking to game patronage or actually receiving sort of monetary prizes and
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there are some really famous ones that I'm aware of from the 14th and 15th century but I'm trying to
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think if I've ever actually seen any sort of discussion if like the actual exchange of money
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that's taking place around these events? I've got a question about tournament nights here all right so
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I'm assuming that these are folks who are just great athletes who've decided that they're going to use
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this this office of knighthood to become champions of tournaments but that here's my question
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maybe they don't have any kind of battlefield prowess or they don't have any reputation for
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actually being good when it counts or something and I'm wondering if that's the case number one and
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number two is it frowned upon? So most of the ones that I'm aware of the battlefield accomplishments
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actually proceed the more like spectacular or sort for higher kind of things because if you have
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somebody who's using this again as a form of social mobility so maybe someone from the lower
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nobility who comes to the attention of a more powerful noble because of actual battle and then
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they sort of parlay that recognition into kind of higher and more visible roles within the
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context of an actual army and then they sort of spin that out into a career as again like a celebrity
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so the person I'm thinking of is a guy named Jacques de la Longue who's a mid 15th century
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Burgundy and knight and fights famous battles everywhere from Scotland to Italy to the Iberian
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peninsula all through France and England and famously had one I can only compare it to like a
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Vegas residency where per year on the first day of every month he would fight anyone who came to
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challenge him and you know they've had all these sorts of different rules and he really
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established himself as like the greatest kind of champion but he had had a career before that
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like in actual military service to the Duke's of Burgundy and the Kings of France and this is
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you know the Hundred Years War so he's kind of bouncing between sides of this frontier area between
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the English and the French so there's that's the one you know what I'm more familiar with as a sort
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of this is the second stage of his career and the goal then is ultimately parlay that reputation
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into like a political office like to then gain sort of become like a a biair something in the
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French government so so it's a back and forth so it's sort of like what we were saying earlier about
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the literature and the history being in such close conversation that I think the idea of William
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Marshall who Carol mentioned earlier again both a great tournament night but also a military
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commander so the reputation goes both ways and I wonder I mean you may know more Phil but my impression
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would be it would be extremely difficult for someone who was quite humble to make their way into
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one of these tournaments in the late Middle Ages it would be really tough not least because they
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need the equipment I mean that's a nice touch I think that Martin always has about how expensive
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the equipment and especially the horses like I think that's he does that really well but my
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impression would be you'd already have to have gained some renown and or wealth in order to be able
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to do that right I think that's 100% right so like largely just to have been equipped by a lord as his
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soldier is what kind of gets you in and you know there would be I'm sure there were someone can
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come up with exceptions to this but no I think you're you're totally right that's a much more
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likely path into this kind of Carol Carol I'm wondering in the literature do we have any examples
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of someone being shamed because maybe they're great at the showmanship part of it but not great
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on the battlefield I cannot think of an example I think they go they seem to go hand in hand in
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the literature so that if there is a cowardly character on the battlefield when he then meets up
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with the champion in a joust or at a tournament that cowardice comes through as well so yeah they
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seem fairly close to such a net way that's interesting I've got a question about fabrics and I feel like
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I mean Val I'm gonna lean on you a little bit here but I'm I'm wondering at some point there was
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a sort of legal enforcement of who could wear what color and and the kinds of fabrics and I'm
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wondering when that comes in to be and when that gets enforced yeah so yeah so how would that
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gets enforced that's a great great issue so it's called sumptuary law and we do not have clear
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sumptuary law until the late middle ages and again the exact time it kind of crops up depends on
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the time and place but it's much more something one would associate with the 14th and 15th centuries
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than necessarily earlier although there are there are cases of things that are either
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sumptuary law like sumptuary law a little earlier but earlier in some senses maybe they didn't
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need as much sumptuary law because in the ancient world and early medieval world and kind of
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into the central middle ages it was just so expensive to get certain things that automatically
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just having them was like a sign of your status so silk would be a good example of this silk was
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so hard to get a hold of and was such a luxury product that having it at all was just a sign that
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you you were elite for sure and in particular the most expensive form of silk would have been purple
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right and that you see right he only puts on purple at the end Damon does and so that is very
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significant because purple was generally reserved for rulers and even the Romans were using it right
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so that like the stripe on atoga it's some like it's a sign of senatorial class so the elite
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and then as you move into a kind of later Roman world to the Byzantine world right the Byzantine
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rulers were purple and of course some Western rulers would also wear purple in imitation of this
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now is it the case that they would absolutely forbid someone else from wearing purple we don't
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exact we don't have sumptuary law that says something like that but it would just probably have
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been so incredibly expensive and we at least have better records from the Byzantine world to show
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that there were efforts to control access to certain kinds of silk and so in that sense there's
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not necessarily like laws throughout the entire middle ages but there's definitely laws by the end
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of the middle ages and into the early modern period and that I think is because you're starting to
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see more new wealth right by that period and so there are people like say rich merchants or
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something like that who might have been able to afford these things and then the rulers want to
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make sure that they're still distinguished from those people and so maybe putting some
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sheree law into practice but yeah I mean I could go on and on about the fabrics in this I loved
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loved it especially I will say I'll just leave it with this for the moment I love the use of silk
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in terms of treating his wound of treating dunks wound right that was I thought a really lovely
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touch like his horror first of all at the silk being torn up to treat his wound but like that would
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have been the most effective thing and so I thought that was that was great because there are
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definitely scholars who've noted that silk is mentioned in terms of treating wounds and sewing
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up wounds and things like that that is very effective and works well now is the idea that you're
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wrapping with the silk or that you're using it to stitch both I think in this case they're wrapping
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but there are there is a case of a scholar who pointed out you know using various sort of medical
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texts and tracks on different herbs you might use to treat wounds that it does appear that silk
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thread seems to have been a preferred form of the thread you would want to use to kind of sew
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something up on the human body so which makes I think makes sense it's quite strong right and so
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I can see that being preferable to something that might be weaker and could therefore maybe snap
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if the person you know because like dunks wound reep opens right when he's fighting in the sept
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and so like that's a good example of like the stitching just might not hold right and so you want
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the strongest kind of thread possible so yeah that's just one of many examples in here of like
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the really good use of I thought the very apt use of textiles and clothing to kind of signal
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things to the readers or to provide just really rich detail all right this is going to lead me to
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something else that I just learned very recently and I almost feel a little bit sheepish about
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admitting this I was talking with my friend Alicia about this story and she said do you think that
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made her plum is blood raven in disguise and it hadn't occurred to me to look at it all right
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but here is she pointed out this particular line which I'll read it's so this is um
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dunk after the exchange with Alan Cochcha or Cochcha winds up in the well through the rain all he
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could make out was the hooded shape with a single pale white eye was only when the man came forward
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the shadowed face beneath the cowl took on a familiar the familiar features of
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surmainered plum the pale eye no more than the moonstone brooch that pinned his cloak at the shoulder
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so there's some question about like the face not being recognizable and the one eye suggesting
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you know maybe blood raven and if you go back to when he first meets manored plum
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manored plum is wearing purple now that does not necessarily mean that he is royalt here whatever
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but in a story where no one is what they seem I wonder if there's a little literary motif happening
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here where you're supposed to wonder oh wait he's wearing a plum colored clothing should this
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alert me to you know his his true identity and then I went back and listened to the story again
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and everything that manored plum says it just gets really hilarious if indeed it is blood raven
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and I'm wondering did you any of you clock any of that because this is totally new to me
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I I did um I found him at first just very mysterious and then um actually I was I was looking on the
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the game of thrones wiki to try to keep track of characters as we talked about
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yeah and and I found a reference to manored plum and apparently some some in fan fiction some people
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have thought this or maybe it wouldn't have occurred to me but then I too look back and um there
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are a lot of hint that there is something very strange about manored he shows up in odd places
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you're right the color of purple the moon stone that reference so I think it's a distinct
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possibility so in that case though would he be have some sort of magic because I mean there's the
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issue of the birth the birth mark and the fact that he has one eye um both of those are fairly
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distinctive features so is the idea that this is his magic that he is able to sort of conceal or
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disguise himself that's right and what Alicia suggested is that he's a faceless man
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among his many you know magical qualities he's all he's sort of a trained faceless man
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and and so he's disguised this is I mean a soft version of his theory is that he's a spy for
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you know blood raven or something like that because you know he's got this vast network of
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spies of course but looking back on it I was thinking I wonder if this purple choice of clothing
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is meant to be an early indicator of his true identity or something like that yeah I mean I took him
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for being someone in disguise but I had a hard time deciding if I thought his blood raven or
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someone else or spy and I I mean I took it like I kept thinking well who exactly is the mystery
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night because there's a lot of candidate right in terms of the title and obviously I think
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there's meant to be multiple mystery nights um but I think he's the most mysterious night of all and I
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mean it's I think this is an interesting idea about the purple raven but I feel like it could be
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anyone and I do wonder right because there's supposed to be more novellas if eventually we're meant
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to find out who the mystery night is I don't know but um yeah I thought that was one of the things I
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thought this is the like I they would definitely reward rereading right like you were saying you
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listened to it again um I had a hard time deciding I thought I have to read it again and maybe even
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read the other two novellas again to try to figure it out see if there's clues somewhere
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there's another passage I can't find it I couldn't find it just now where
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Dunk is looking at it and says he sees less and less if do you recall that um yes let's say it
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it was like he was looking at his face and he said closer he looked at his face the less he felt he
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saw so there's a couple little instances of this there's another line where
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Maynard Plum calls the gathering a den of atters and that's the exact line that blood raven uses
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later when he's holding court so there's a lot of little things like this that there's the scene where
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you know Glendon pours out his wine at the toast when blood raven is toast and Maynard Plum's
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like that's a waste of good wine you know so there's a couple little things like that if you
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if you just reread it even if the theory is totally you know unwarranted it is a fun way to reread
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the story I've got a question about bastards all right there's so much is made of so much is made
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poor Glendon who's I don't know what 17 years old or something like this um Glendon who's claiming to be
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the bastard son of a famous knight fireball but then when he's accused of stealing this dragon egg
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everyone kind of gets onto this narrative well of course you know bastards you know you can
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never trust these bastards but I'm wondering like sure maybe that's where you came from but once
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knighted and this guy has a lot of witnesses to his dubbing once knighted doesn't that supersede the
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the previous accusation of bastardry I just I'm curious what that what knighthood actually does
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for your social status if if people are always going to be pointing back to your you know question
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belinean I think bloodline is still is still very important and in this case um Glendon's father
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didn't legitimize him or didn't claim him because he died before he was born so he really has nothing
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to go on except his prowess which is impressive I think of him in kind of along the lines of a natural
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or a chosen one or a fair unknown who comes who comes up and has all this natural talent if we can
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believe him he not commands teeth out before he lost his own teeth so he has remarkable prowess
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but he has no way of proving any kind of lenia he doesn't even have the right hair color which is
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big for martin right right of course I would also say like a knight is basically anyone with some
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arms and a horse the horse is really essential right and then because student you know students
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especially will say me what is knight was knight and they they really want you know a clear definition
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and kind of like oh it'll elevate you or something it's just some degree of course I think depending
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on the time and place it did but a lot of it is just there's a huge variation among knights right
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there are going to be knights who are so powerful like will you marshal for example eventually becomes
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incredibly powerful person individual but you can also have knights who you know they they don't
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have much and you see that I think both in historical texts and in literature that there's just a
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wide variation and I would say I don't think being made a knight historically would mean that
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you're a lineage would not matter also the circumstances of the dubbing right because I know
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throughout these novellas you've been sort of wondering about um Duncan's sort of Duncan the
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Tolls you know Doug was he ever actually made a knight and here you know that clouds people's
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judgment of of Donk now here we see the opposite which is that everyone agrees that he was knighted
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but in the most dishonorable way possible like you know whether he chose it or not he is selling his
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sister's virginity for his knight like that's this that story is going to keep right like that is
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yeah one that is told and retold and so you wonder again going back to Carol's point maybe over
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10 years if he keeps proving himself a valiant warrior and he you know wins in tournaments or serves
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a great lord and rises in rank like maybe you could start to sort of put that behind you
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but that's a tough that's a tough story to carry with you um and you know even when he's announced
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uh you you see how it's twisted both by you know both calling him flowers but then also
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of the pussy when I mean it's it's tough so so I could see that sticking with him for a long time
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in a way that even being a great a great uh powerful uh valorous knight might make it hard for people
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to forget hmm although they do say about him um this issue if you know bastard's blood will show
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or and all that but they also people know it will know he may well be the fireballs bastard because
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as a blood will tell and he's so good on the field right so there's that aspect of it too
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yeah he definitely proves his uh his prowess and in the world of romance that's how you would
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establish your lineage if a fear unknown comes into the court they prove themselves through prowess
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and here he unhorses Damon uh pretty easily
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hmm
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all right so one of the major conceits of the story is that some lord who's in line for the throne
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allows his fourth son to galvant around the seven kingdoms with a man of low birth to kind of
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adventures and I'm wondering uh this just seems crazy this this seems crazy to me and so I'm
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wondering if some sort of insight into the life of children helps us or is this just something look
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you just kind of have to buy into that because otherwise this story is just not going to be entertaining
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um I'm curious what if if you have any insight on this bow well I would say um
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no I think this I mean I think it's mainly it's a great literary conceit it works really well
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although I think it is essential if it has to be a fourth son it might have worked better even if
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he was like a sixth or seventh son you know like like a like a total spare except that I think in this
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world where um as we see with the spring sickness right children can die even adults can just die
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you want as many possible errors as you can and you want to protect them so in that sense it seems
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a bit unbelievable yeah but in the sense that yes children often did go to other households
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to learn things and they were squired and they did um you know even uh less elite people then say
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you know royalty obviously they they they would also be apprentice right they might go to a workshop
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or something like that and be with another family and there is a sense in which um you get enough
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tales especially from things like coroner's roles for example in England you get enough tales that
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this is a pretty precarious position to be in that sometimes this just came to a bad end for the kids
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either because they were in a situation that we might we might now call abusive that was probably
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not called that um it might have been perceived that way but they didn't use those terms but
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something bad could happen to them right or they were subject to danger at that for sure
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I think is part of it but the idea that someone would do this I guess you I guess part of
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me is like I can accept it logically as a reader mostly because when this starts he's the fourth
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son of the third son I think I have that right and so quite far removed but by the time we get to
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the mystery night novella we've already lost some of those errors which to me makes me wonder like
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why isn't someone like calling him back in and I find it fascinating that um that it's not like at
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the end of this that they're like no no egg you're done right like we've lost enough people you
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were in so much danger here except that of course um he's so clever right and he gets him he knows
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what to do um with Lord butterwell right to get him back off so I don't know like I think it's a
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great literary conceit and it I think it feels believable because it does rest on things that happened
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and historically but it is you just sort of I think have to accept that it's kind of an extraordinary
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special thing right and yeah because otherwise it doesn't seem quite believable I love it though as
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a literary device because it also kind of toys with the role of mentorship because who's mentoring
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zoom here right that um right egg has knowledge like of heraldry and he is so has so much more
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common sense at times like you are not ready to jowl and yet on the other hand uh you know
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Duncan's the one who's supposed to have egg under his wing to show him the rope so I find it a delightful
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literary device well you also do get the characters throughout who sort of recognize that Duncan is the
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embodiment of what a knight is actually supposed to be so even if he is not the smartest and not the
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best jowster there is a sort of moral education that's going on and I think you're right it's the
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complementarity of the two characters physically intellectually morally uh that that makes them such a
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compelling duo um but at the same time you know Duncan is he does the right thing more often than not
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um more often lady right lady remains braid aside um it's a little bit um it's a little bit
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Arthurian that isn't this because it's sort of like you know the true here's the true king
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and you know he's not like uh he doesn't pull a sword from a rock or something like that
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but he's he's hiding you know he's hiding and he's you know he's in servitude and of course the
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differences you know agnose who he is but there is something about maybe the best king is someone
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who has the right lineage but has a training that's other than courtly or something like that I
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don't know if that's just something that's sort of like more romantic or or if there's actually
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you know historical conversations about this I'm not sure what to do with that information
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I would think it probably touches on something true to history which is that the commoners do have
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you know some sway um ultimately even after Arthur pulls the sword from the stone and Mallory
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it's uh it's really when the commoners is set to him being king that uh that he's able to
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to take the throne and so I'm wondering if this gives egg an edge on I don't know what happens
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what he becomes king but that he uh has this I don't know folks equality about him maybe uh
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interesting I see a lot of like the mirror for princess literature from the later middle
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ages where this idea that a good ruler is intimately familiar with his lands and his people now it
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doesn't say go around and disguises an eight year old and service to a hedge knight um but this idea of
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like you that kind of experience and familiarity will make you more acceptable a girl to your point
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to the people but it will also make you a better ruler because you actually understand what the
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people need so there's something in the prescriptive literature to it I just I'm not sure it would
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it would look quite this way um but again it makes for a wonderful story so and it also makes me think
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of like if you think of early medieval rulers who were itinerant they moved around they wouldn't have
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really needed to do this right because they're constantly on the move and part of the idea is
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then people are seeing them I mean it's also a very practical they're spreading out the
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costs of kind of maintaining the court because the court was not fixed the court is the group of
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people moving the cost of that would be borne by different people throughout the kingdom um and you
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could move where the hunting was good and things like that um but you see this I think in like
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period or like talking about at that time about the early middle ages so this is like a period like
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especially I'd say like seventh eighth ninth a little bit into the 10th century um courts are
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moving around the Carolinjian rulers are good example of this they move from place to place
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their main seat is Ahin and they have some favorite places they like to go uh but they move around
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and it lets them see things and let's them have a kind of finger on what's going on in a way that
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if you have a completely fixed spot which is what takes place later you might need to have the
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person kind of go out and do things but you also see in those same Carolinjian texts like rulers
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will take their young son to some place that's dangerous like a hunt or up right up to the brink
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of war and then they send them back like there's also the sense of who can be too young and you
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shouldn't be in too much danger especially if you're in error um and so in that sense it's like okay
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there's something there that makes sense historically but not but only up to a point
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interesting I think back to like to the first uh um the earlier you know the original books
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and you get this huge contrast in how uh atterd Stark is raising his children you know to meet the
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stewards to meet the master of the stables to be in these conversations to go out and witness
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the execution this idea of again like experience as teacher versus what we probably imagined
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about jafri's education um which is just being sort of sequestered away and we have the contrast here
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with eras who's whoever says oh he's just with his books in king's landing you know he's not
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visible he's not a presence he's not knowing and known so I think we see that contrast kind of playing
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out here of what how is a king supposed to act interesting all right so there's a couple instances
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in this story where the lords are really worried about the opinions of those around them
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there's this one moment when butterwell thinks oh no the gig is up we got to get out of here
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um Damon has more friends around here than I do and he thinks let's let's sneak out the northern
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gate it's his property it's his it's his it's his residence and so I'm wondering like okay so
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is the power really with the lord or is the power with like whoever's army is a little bit bigger
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in that moment and then there's this second minute when Damon decides let's let's go against this
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much larger army that's at the gates and the soldiery decides I'd rather live and you get this
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one little line from this old grizzled squire who says I don't think I'm gonna die for you today
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so I'm wondering that makes me think like how much of these lords and kings and and you know
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courtly figures how much do they actually care about the opinions of these people that are of lower rank
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I mean I think you could like those those particular instances when I think about them and
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especially the soldiers saying you know actually clearly this is a death wish if we follow
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follow you into this conflict is you know the idea of martin trying to give some sort of
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agency control to all of his characters and recognizing that there's a rationality you know in the
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the sort of stories we tell ourselves about feudal bonds and and obligation and obedience you know
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there are lots and lots of times where we see people surrendering because it's the smart thing to do
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and so I do think that there is something about maybe not even so much
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whether or not but a while cares about the opinion of these people beneath him and the social pyramid
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so much as recognizing that they are making decisions in the moment for themselves within constraints
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obviously but even when they go into the sept and but a while has why like three soldiers who
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we think sort of loyal to him as opposed to the captain of his cards is son of law like there
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again we see like people are making choices they're shifting their allegiances based on some kind
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of calculation and that supersedes honor and that's a that feels like a sort of light motif for a
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lot of martins writing and then so someone like Duncan stands out by way of contrast of not thinking
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in that kind of instrumental manner so that's how I would read that of just you know again trying to
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farm out agency and responsibility to all of the characters despite rank when I think of like the
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ideal night it's like that guy is going to fight and die for his king
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regardless of his own well-being right but that's certainly not the picture that we're getting in
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this story like there are nights and there are nights there's going to be different people who
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have different motives and and a lot of them will be self-serving so I'm not I'm not sure
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if this is sort of like martins thinking well mutt there must have been nights who gambled right
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we don't have evidence but there must have been those who gambled or whether it's uh if he's actually
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borrowing this from somewhere well I feel like it's also again a call out to the I mean this
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seems to be through all of his work that there is no true night like it's almost like calling out
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this idea of nighthood and like kind of showing that I mean it's a it gives you a certain station
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or certain status in in this world right but that almost no one is living up to it right it's so
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exceptional like Brianna of Tarth maybe does Duncan maybe does or but it's just and Brianna of course
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isn't even a night but she definitely sort of embodies those ideals and I feel like it's a sense
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of which Martin is recognizing that we can have these ideals and in the real world right we know
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that people don't always live up to those uh but he's making a world in which it seems real because
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there's this thing that people are allegedly supposed to be aiming for and yet he's very good at
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showing that people may have ulterior motives or bad motives that mean they don't live up to it at
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all or they abuse it but also people who have other things that they're much more concerned about
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than that so I think it's much more sort of like fits his literary world I guess I would say
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and if we look at Stubblery is an ethical code also then I get I love that Martin's his best
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nights usually aren't it's like Brianna of Tarth as you said or Doc who you know who we don't even
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know if he's truly been dubbed and I'm thinking in the world of romance again just coming off a
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course where I taught Mallory that's true in a lot of the literature as well that in Mallory's
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with Mort d'Orther it's Gauane is extremely pigheaded in many ways he leads to the downfall
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of the round table by being so stubborn we have someone like Kay who serves Arthur and yet does
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some pretty dastardly things even Lance a lot is the perfect earthly night that he fails on the
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doesn't do so well with women because he's so devoted so there is no perfect night and I
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I like the way that Martin captures that and kind of plays that out because Martin's world is sort
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of this this sea of ethical gray where maybe there is no true night or perfect night or something
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like that but what I'm hearing from you Carol is that this has kind of been stories of nights have
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always kind of had this element to them I think so because the chevalet code is sets ideals so if
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we're looking at a night if we define a night by that code that it's someone who lives up to those
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ideals I think it would be impossible for any human to live up to those ideals so in the world of
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literature it seems they always fall short I think if you if you all can think of a perfect night
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let me know
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well and even if the code of chivalry is unattainable the idea is still really powerful because it
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shapes social expectations and it does give people away either through fulfilling it or
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convincing people that you're fulfilling it or manipulating it like that it still has power
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even if it doesn't perfectly correspond to the to the lived reality and again I feel like in
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these novellas particularly where we're seeing how that ethos trickles down to the lower ranks
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of knighthood we get a very different image of it than like you know the torture the torture
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tragic Jamie Lannister looks really different than the knights were meeting in these novellas and yet
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you know the same codes or the same ideas or ideals are shaping their behavior and expectations
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so I that's something I think is really great about this is the way it kind of again it gets us
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through the full spectrum of knighthood in a way that was a little bit I think a little more opaque
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in the the the first books I might as well just mention this this was just pointed out to me by
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my friend Aeron he was saying that buried as a minor detail in I think dance of dragons
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Brienne of tarth is remembering back to all the shields on her father's wall and the one that she
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likes best and she describes dung's shield suggesting that dung at one point landed in tarth and
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maybe he is an ancestor or something so there's a connection there you know so who knows maybe he
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maybe he connects at one point with tenzel two tall and you know they produce very very tall children
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together I don't know interesting little detail all right last last question all right so
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blood or even decides that he's going to bring Damon as a hostage he says this hostage will
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ornament the court well and and sort of discourage any future rebellions but with white walls
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he's going to tarot brick from brick and salt the earth which I think is a little literary
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tie to like the people at high table being referred to the salt earlier in the story
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he's going to salt the earth and he's going to make sure that there's never going to be a
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monument to this rebellion so that two things number one the role of hostages in terms of helping
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keep the peace and the almost total erasure of of a castle or a residence that seems like a massive
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undertaking and I'm wondering if this is actually something that's done well with the salt and
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the destruction what I actually thought of was not something medieval but Roman right carthage
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yeah right which they allegedly destroy and allegedly according to text at least they so
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assault them to the earth I mean I don't know if they actually still assault them to the earth but it
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is absolutely it was destroyed right and became much a hollow shell of what it was so I feel like it
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might have been something of a call out to that but like I'm having trouble thinking of a like a
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medieval example of something like that where something was just so completely obliterated
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I the other example I think of is again it's ancient is a conaton in ancient Egypt right during
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the New Kingdom like so he he introduced an unpopular new former religion and once he dies they
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destroyed his new capital destroyed him and buried it all under rubble and it's only discovered
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much much later by archaeologists right in the modern era right and for centuries no one knew about
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him so that's a good example but so fully mature memory I know like this is like to me with this
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struck me as like oh this feels ancient like you know because he's a pit it's a prestige so to me it
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fell a little more ancient but I don't I don't know what feeling you're all think I think it
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won't work because the lore carries through stories and and obviously you know I think that the
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stories about this second attempted Blackpire rebellion do carry on so he might be able to obliterate
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it so I'm not I'm not really answering the question because I don't know historically of examples
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where that happened but I think ultimately it won't work as far as erasing these events it doesn't
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work right we know because there are later references to this rebellion I think so Anthony
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actually from your your stuff didn't there are some mention of sewing salt and Jerusalem after the
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70 AD rebellion because again because again but I was without it cartridges the first place my brain
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went yeah the idea is that you want to make sure you want to make it difficult for people to
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to establish a culture there because you need crops right so and then in terms of like that kind of
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symbolic erasure or attempts the only thing I could think of was from the albedegency and crusade
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against the catharic heresy in the 13th century there are a couple of their strongholds kind of in
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the Pyrenees and southern France that fall after really hard sieges and I believe a couple of
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those are sort of symbolically destroyed like never again kind of mentality but even in that case
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a lot of the stones are actually repurposed for other kinds of fortresses but those are like it's
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not a great there's not a huge set of these so I do think it's this idea of like the the totality
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of that trying to erase this but Carol I'm curious you know you're talking about like the lore
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living on but in some ways this goes back to the other part of the question about you know making
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sure Damien's not a martyr he's just a sort of neutered public figure now and so is there
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going to be any lore about this failed rebellion or is it I mean there's nothing really that
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glamorous or glorious about it so I'm curious like in some ways the other decisions he makes seems more
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blood raven seems more sort of savvy or canny about trying to nip this in the bud you do have a
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point there and I know because of looking in the world of ice and fire that there is a third rebellion
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right and so maybe this one is only remembered because there's a third one
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okay so in worlds I think it's a little detail that I think is interesting
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Martin likes to have we're woods have really strong significance
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um and so we know from different parts of the lore that heron hall gets is haunted
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because of it was constructed with we'rewood trees all right we first meet
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Maynard Plum so this is another indication maybe he's blood raven they're sitting in a
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in a grove of failed we'rewood trees so they're just on the stumps and then later on we find out
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that white white hole has we'rewood tree rafters and so I think that there's something about
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you could look at it two ways one is this this place was always going to get torn down
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that this place was cursed from the beginning we didn't know how it was going to happen but you
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don't do that with we'rewood trees all right so that's the number one thing secondly blood raven
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sort of ends up becoming the three I crow later on so he becomes a very sort of we'rewood
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mythic creature maybe he wants maybe he wants the rafters maybe he wants to take the rafters
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with them and moreover the walls are all marble so you're not going to burn the place down maybe
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you're going to repurpose that somewhere else so this is all kind of my head cannon about
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I think that I kind of like that idea of the repurposing cuspolia were used so much in the
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you know especially in the early middle ages many different people else across where
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the places where the Romans had been would repurpose old Roman buildings turning them into churches
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or whatever I mean you can go into many churches now and Europe and see like you know a stone
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will be facing you say and you can see the Roman like road marker on it or something you know
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there's some great stuff like that but also medieval people like to reuse older things right over
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and over again right so I like this idea like of repurposing the marble and I hadn't thought of
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repurposing the weirwoods but I did notice that weirwood thing and thought oh that's not good
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like it's like a heart of your doom or something the one thing that did occur to me though of a place
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in Martin's world where I think that if they were to start is isn't the reigns of castamere but
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of course they sing that song which would speak to carols point but I guess in that case the
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Lannisters want everyone to know that they did it yeah yeah so that's an interesting case of like
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just destruction but in the sense of we want everyone to remember this but so that makes it to
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me a little interesting that the blood ribbon is saying oh let's do this in order that you not be
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remembered so I don't know like that's it could be what he just cares he just maybe he doesn't
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care whether the place is remembered or not maybe he thinks I'm not going to allow these weirwood
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rafters to be used for some other purpose I'm going to take them with me or maybe reuse the marble
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somewhere else that's another option what you guys are talking about like him about Damon being sort
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of like just this random person instead of like a martyr or something someone can rally around
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or the idea of look if we get rid of them someone also rise up it really makes me think of the
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Carolyn Jean Kings removing the mayor of engine kings because of course the last mayor of
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engine king well they don't take him to court they send him to a monastery and I always wish a
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little bit in Martin's world that he would have someone sort of takes someone who's politically
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dangerous and be like off you go you're going to become a silent sister or you're going to be
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often I don't know but they you know maybe there's no way for him to do that but that I think
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it was pretty common in the religious you have them in a religious orders and it's a kind of
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exile but the person's still alive and so that's a good way of dealing with these.
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To the wall right being sent to the wall yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I think at one point
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Lancel he does sort of join the faith of the seven is sort of one of these religious adherents
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which is a way to keep them in the story can that completely remove them maybe he can still be
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dangerous but you know maybe get one less lannister out of the way I guess that could be a parallel
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all right so I sort of we're all aware of sort of the value of Martin's world and his literature
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as a platform to instruct about the ancient world or the medieval world I'm wondering if
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these novellas one or all three might be a better entry point because they are so simple and
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they're almost contain a plot that's easier to follow would this would you think that this could
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be useful for classroom instruction neither the seven kingdoms number one number two what would be
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lost and gained with using this book rather than let's say the first a game of thrones novel in the
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series I've taught a class a couple of times with the first two novels and I think this would work
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better in many ways because it is it's more more compact it's more concise for me as far as
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literature goes and the theme of chivalry it works really well the disadvantage would be that
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there is all this background and we were trying so hard to juggle characters that somehow you would
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to set that up but in many ways I it would work very well and I hope to do it soon.
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Oh good Phil you'd use the first novel right I use the first novel and I think that what would be
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missing with these would be just the sense of political stakes in like the scale and like the sort of
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I get it imaginary but the sort of consequences of the decisions that are made because these are
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on a smaller scale I also would really I think one of the best things about teaching the first novel
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are characters like Cersei and Daenerys and Calvin Stark and thinking of end Sansa and thinking about
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all the ways power is gendered in this world and Rohan you get like a tiny piece of it but it's not
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as rich and so that is the one thing I think I would miss the most at the same time though all the
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chivalry literature all of the sort of courtly culture all of the ideas of sort of military and legal
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practice you could do a lot with this so you certainly could do it I just I don't know I think I
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would I would miss I'd have a hard time teaching without Daenerys frankly I think it would depend
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on the class so I have to say I've not taught with the novels from you know Song of Ice and Fire I only
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taught having the students watch the TV show although many of the students in the class had obviously
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read the novels and I had to but what I would say is if I was going to teach the literature I would
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be tempted by the second novella especially probably partly because of what Phil is saying it touches
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on themes that are more might say like familial or domestic or kind of like how lordship works in a way
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and maybe like it's also because of the period and the kinds of things I teach about I find it would
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find that one to be especially appealing but yes in many ways I would find it easier to teach with
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these than with the novels but I have to say it's fire and blood that I would most like to teach with
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so I have a whole idea about using that one I think that would be perfect for a historiography class
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like as a way of opening it where students I think you know your average this is a class of course
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mainly for history majors most students aren't history majors don't want to take it but it's about
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the history of how history is written right and how historians craft works and I you know lots of
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students sort of dread taking the class and I say that's not really why I'm a history major but I always
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thought if I open the class with fire and blood and I say look at how difficult it is to fear what
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happened right you know in the multiple perspectives and it's not as long and it introduces a lot of
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these complex kind of ideas like his complex world in a way that you could say them if you can
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digest this and see this then you're capable of kind of imagining this historically like I always
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thought it might work for history a graphical class pretty well so I guess for me it would depend
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on the class right what what you wanted to do obviously if I was teaching medieval women I would
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probably want to go take some portion of the first couple of books of song in the ice and fire so
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I think it depends all right anything else that we forgot I didn't get earlier that you were dying
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to talk about I just had a question yeah who took the egg who got the egg is it we think one of the
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the entertainer door yeah I think we're meant to believe that yeah okay I just wondered if he
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if he if he weren't getting it for someone else but okay I almost wondered if in any way you're
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supposed to believe it's egg but then I was trying to think I thought oh I'm only going to
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ever figure that out on rereading so I don't actually know because it might be impossible for him
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to have gotten it right do you have a thought on this film I know just because it's but it's that
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funny moment of like Duncan actually having a good idea and like seeing through something
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and so like I choose to believe that they were you know spy little people in blood Ravens
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employee who stole it just because I want to give the credit to Duncan once so that's that's
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what I'll choose to believe yeah no I don't think I think we're meant to believe it the little person
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who smells like he's crawled through a privy is I think I think he's the truthief and maybe the
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true murderer the question is to what end like was he hired to do this by someone else did the plan
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go awry like I these are all questions that maybe we don't find out until later novella
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the only other thing I would just mention is I this is such a great use of the misinterpreted dream
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by john the fiddler trying to place Duncan and the idea of like
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how much magic is in the world in this particular period in the history of west roasts and how are
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these sort of lingering ideas in the misinterpretation misinterpretation of a dream that really sets
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this on a path and that's just that's always fun all the way you know as far back as classical literature
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there's nothing better than somebody who's so certain they know what a dream means and it leads into their