Culture
Art Without Borders - RAJIV MENON'S Vision for South Asian Art
In this episode of 'Art Without Borders,' gallerist and curator Rajiv Menon shares his vision for South Asian art, emphasizing its cultural significance beyond individual artists and galleri...
Art Without Borders - RAJIV MENON'S Vision for South Asian Art
Culture •
0:00 / 0:00
Interactive Transcript
spk_0
One, two, three, four.
spk_0
I want people to understand South Asian art as bigger than a single gallery or a single
spk_0
artist, but as a larger cultural movement.
spk_0
I want people to be in coloring art in all parts of their lives, and I'm constantly thinking
spk_0
about new ways to go about that.
spk_0
Because I was very aware as someone launching a South Asia-focused gallery, that was the
spk_0
cultural dynamic that had undergirded the way that most people in the West were thinking
spk_0
about art from the region.
spk_0
And so taking that on directly and inviting artists to work with that theme was a really
spk_0
important grounds for setting the ethos of the gallery and the types of critical questions
spk_0
we wanted to take on with the work we were doing.
spk_0
My guest today is Rajiv Menon, a gallerist and curator who is carving out a distinctive
spk_0
space in the contemporary art world.
spk_0
Based in Los Angeles, Rajiv holds a PhD from NYU where he studied global media and visual
spk_0
culture, and he's also a passionate collector of South Asian art.
spk_0
He founded Rajiv Menon Contemporary with a clear mission to bring artists from South Asia
spk_0
and its diaspora to a wider audience and to cultivate a new generation of art collectors
spk_0
within these communities.
spk_0
His exhibitions have tackled fascinating themes from the exuberant and sometimes overwhelming
spk_0
world of the Indian wedding through Verajkana's intricate textile art in its current exhibition,
spk_0
why did I say yes?
spk_0
To a deep dive into the creativity of Kerala in three steps of land and a compelling look
spk_0
at how artists transform nostalgia into an aesthetic movement in the past as a country.
spk_0
His work resonates far beyond the gallery walls aiming to shift our collective culture.
spk_0
He's also recently been honored by the city of Los Angeles for his contributions to the
spk_0
arts.
spk_0
Rajiv Menon, welcome to the creative process.
spk_0
Thank you so much for having me.
spk_0
Really excited to chat.
spk_0
And talk about bringing exhibitions beyond the gallery walls.
spk_0
I believe you're preparing if you can talk a little bit about that.
spk_0
You're bringing your first Indian American exhibition to India to the gyper palace.
spk_0
Just tell us a little bit about that.
spk_0
Yeah, we will be the first individual gallery to curate at the J-PRO Center for Eric,
spk_0
which is a new platform built out of the city palace in J-PRO.
spk_0
It's a really significant opportunity, not only because it's this major platform in
spk_0
the city palace that's able to really showcase Indian art for a global audience, but it's
spk_0
also an opportunity to bridge conversations between the diaspora and the homeland.
spk_0
And that was very much the spirit I went into this exhibition with.
spk_0
The exhibition is entitled Non-Residency, which is all about the aesthetics of diaspora.
spk_0
An Indian who lives abroad is called a non-resident Indian or NRI.
spk_0
And I wanted to think about that category of non-residency, not just as a social one,
spk_0
but as an aesthetic one.
spk_0
And think about how that experience of migration, immigration, displacement, exile,
spk_0
feels through artwork once the emotional sort of texture of those types of experiences.
spk_0
And how are artists sort of encountering the homeland from the position of the diaspora?
spk_0
And so it all kind of centers around the idea of non-residency as an experience of the uncanny,
spk_0
and how the experience between the homeland and the diaspora is often one of the distortion
spk_0
of familiarity of a sense of doubling, all things that feel very strongly aligned with the uncanny.
spk_0
I also want to use the exhibition as an opportunity to announce a really significant cohort of artists
spk_0
who are working through singular practices, but also in concert to create a larger movement.
spk_0
And I'm calling that the non-resident school.
spk_0
I wanted to announce that there is this body of work and this group of artists that is working
spk_0
to shift the culture in a very meaningful way and present them in that codified way
spk_0
for the first time through this incredible platform.
spk_0
That's so interesting that term non-resident, because I think about the living between two worlds
spk_0
or sometimes the departed or those in exile or the immigrant is kind of dealing with ghosts.
spk_0
Like they kind of get lower. You know this. I know this as a second generation,
spk_0
not of South Asian, but of Asian, East Asian, or a born in America, but I'm now in Europe.
spk_0
And you know, you're dealing with the ghosts of people you've never met in a way.
spk_0
And if you're raised by a few different generations, because if you have the grandparents and the
spk_0
parents, then they've preserved their memories and it kind of lives on when you, but you'd never
spk_0
get the full story. So it's a very interesting kind of perspective to unpack and understand.
spk_0
Absolutely. I think so much about how when you grow up abroad, away from India or whatever the
spk_0
country of origin is, you're having to sort of construct identity through the materials you have
spk_0
and through those residues of what's been left behind. And it makes complete sense to me that for
spk_0
those in the motherland, in this case in India, when they see that culture, they feel that it's
spk_0
odd and distorted and different than what they're used to by nature it's going to be.
spk_0
And so that felt like a really exciting grounds to investigate through hard, to actually look at
spk_0
that perceived gulf between the motherland and the diaspora and actually see it not as a barrier
spk_0
but as a rich place of cultural creation. And I wanted to turn our position of loss. I love the
spk_0
way that you describe the culture as ghosts. So much of our experience growing up in the west is
spk_0
defined by the loss of that source of origin. And to take that experience of loss and turn it into
spk_0
something very fertile and productive and challenging felt like a really exciting opportunity. And I
spk_0
think the artist that I'm getting to exhibit absolutely exemplify that dynamic.
spk_0
And it's also interesting about the children of immigrants or the grandchildren of immigrants
spk_0
because it's often a multi-generational family. At the one point, they are the teachers of their
spk_0
parent. They're the cultural translators in some ways. I mean, they're being, you know, their
spk_0
parents are taking care of them. But in other ways, they can only explain, you know, as made born
spk_0
into the American culture or whatever country that they may have immigrated to,
spk_0
their things that their parents or grandparents will never really understand in the same way. So
spk_0
it's a kind of interesting, like, cultural translators and then how that, how the artists
spk_0
grew up with these experiences then go on to become kind of cultural translators in their artistic
spk_0
career. Translation is exactly the language I use to think not only about the artist's work,
spk_0
but about my own work. I think even though we're working with individual mediums, I feel like
spk_0
I'm constantly having to translate the context in which the artists are creating. I feel that the
spk_0
artists themselves are translating deep emotional and psychological experiences into visual and
spk_0
aesthetic ones. And now in the show between the diaspora and the homeland, I feel like I'm translating
spk_0
between those two spaces and helping India understand diasporic perspectives better as well.
spk_0
But also allowing diasporic artists to understand the rich cultural context of contemporary India.
spk_0
I think one of the biggest critiques that diasporic creatives receive is that they're responding to
spk_0
a version of India that exists within the past. And that is a very valid criticism. I think that
spk_0
in my lifetime, I've seen the critique of the diaspora within India shift from this idea that
spk_0
we're overly westernized and that we've lost touch with India to almost the opposite, that we'd
spk_0
become too fixated on an India of the past and that we're old fashioned and out of touch with
spk_0
Indian modernity. And I wanted to understand how there's always this present critique of the
spk_0
diaspora within the homeland. And no matter what position is being taken, it always places the
spk_0
diaspora into a position of subordination or derivation in relation to the modern land. I wanted to
spk_0
intervene with that and show that actually diasporic work is very much thinking in the present tense.
spk_0
And the same kind of emotional experiences that might lead to someone being a more old fashioned
spk_0
or backward spacing can also be the grounds for a tremendous innovation. And I think the artists
spk_0
within this exhibition really are just that. They're taking their position within the diaspora
spk_0
and using it as a grounds to create forms of peeing, to create forms of aesthetics that are fully
spk_0
new and wholly original. Yeah, it's so interesting because I don't want to say it can become fossilized,
spk_0
but it becomes the culture that gets passed on to can be static in that moment at time that your
spk_0
parents or grandparents came. They have a version of, it's not necessarily the first or second
spk_0
generations fault, but that's just how the conversation is. And they probably also feel, I know that
spk_0
you were, as you're going up or going back and forth, I mean, being raised in America in Houston,
spk_0
but going back and forth to India so you would get a contemporary experience of it, but you still,
spk_0
you know, it's not totally static, but it's natural that that would happen if like some immigrants
spk_0
don't go back, you know. Completely. And I was born in 1988. So my early childhood in India,
spk_0
when we were going, was in the early 90s when the country was liberalizing. And all of a sudden,
spk_0
the India I was encountering through my lifetime was fundamentally different than the one my parents
spk_0
had seen because they grew up pre-liberalization. They left in the 70s. And so I was definitely cognizant
spk_0
of this massive change that was happening in India and the impossibility of treating it as a sort
spk_0
of static cultural space. And I think that's been kind of a mission of mine as someone who's
spk_0
regularly going back, especially with my peers in the diaspora. It's not think of India as this
spk_0
imagined source of cultural purity and authenticity in our past, but actually looking to it for our
spk_0
future. One of the things I found so inspiring as an Indian American creative when working in India,
spk_0
was that it allowed me to take on these questions of what it meant to be an Indian person in a globalized
spk_0
world in a way that fundamentally centered our perspective. We didn't have to sort of think of
spk_0
ourselves as minoritized because we were back in India and able to have creative discussions that
spk_0
centered us. And that was so small, but revolutionary for the way that I wanted to present Indian
spk_0
work for a global stage. And I'm constantly thinking about how my exhibitions can challenge the way
spk_0
the folks in the diaspora are thinking about their own cultural positioning because that sense of
spk_0
fossilization that you just gesture towards is very present. Yeah, of course, it's a thrive now,
spk_0
it's a thriving digital hub. I mean so many things. And such leading economy and it's diverse,
spk_0
the variety of experience that maybe wasn't the one that your parents or grandparents experienced.
spk_0
So one of going to some of your exhibitions that deal on this very subject, the past is a country.
spk_0
And I really asked that question. I think about it's not an Indian word, but I always think about that.
spk_0
So that, the Portuguese word means a longing for something that does not and cannot exist.
spk_0
And so this exhibition examines nostalgia as an aesthetic movement. What does it really mean?
spk_0
Yeah, that was a very special exhibition because it was my opportunity to really take on something
spk_0
that I had felt so deeply in my life as well as showcase the way that nostalgia can be thought
spk_0
of in different ways. It doesn't necessarily have to be something that bogs us down,
spk_0
holds us to the past, but instead can be this creative spark that gives us a new framework to
spk_0
think about the future. And what I was interested in with the artist I was seeing is the translation
spk_0
of the feeling of memory in nostalgia from a sensory one into an aesthetic one. And I think
spk_0
all of them were grappling with this question. What does memory feel like? What does it actually look
spk_0
like? What is that experience of hovering in memory in your head? Translate to through artistic
spk_0
practice. And from there, they were able to create these very innovative ways of making. And I think
spk_0
techniques of mark making to its storytell and so much that felt fundamentally fresh and exciting
spk_0
while rooted in contending with the past. And I think the goal of that show was to show that we
spk_0
grapple with our sense of loss and the past while also steadfastly working towards the future in
spk_0
innovation. And that was a combination of diasporic artists and artists based in South Asia. And I
spk_0
think each artist brought something really special to the exhibition that created a whole different
spk_0
language for how we can think about it. And I wanted to think about nostalgia as a grounds for
spk_0
creation, ultimately, which I think came across really beautifully. Yeah, and it also engaged with,
spk_0
you know, to complex the history, the colonial legacies. I mean, so many things that there are
spk_0
quite difficult to understand just on it to the visual arts. I mean, it's a history that we're
spk_0
only really kind of grappling with now. Absolutely. And I think, you know, not only thinking about
spk_0
the legacy of colonialism, but also the legacy of partition, the legacy of all these moments of
spk_0
evil within South Asian history and then the history of immigration. Indians in America are a
spk_0
relatively new immigrant group. We've only been able to immigrate after 1965 in large numbers.
spk_0
And so I think our own kind of contending with that experience of loss and rupture that comes
spk_0
with that experience of immigrating was a big theme of that as well. But it was really exciting
spk_0
because I think we got to take on a swath of experiences and engagements with history in the past
spk_0
that really came together in beautiful concert. Yeah, and also escaping that colonial gaze. I mean,
spk_0
what, you know, separating out from, I mean, what I feel is a shameful history of Britain in the
spk_0
region and around the world. I mean, America has its own, American seems to have taken the reins,
spk_0
you know, after British lost its empire. Now we have the, you know, we don't have to go into that,
spk_0
but it's because so often the arts coming from South Asia or other parts of Asia or, you know,
spk_0
different parts of the world have this exoticism put on it. And that is a theme I have been so
spk_0
fixated on since launching our first ever pop up exhibition was called item number, which is a
spk_0
reference to a type of song in Bollywood, but the theme of the show was really about exoticism.
spk_0
And how artists, especially in the diaspora challenge reimagine, playfully, reinterpret, tropes of
spk_0
exoticism, because I was very aware as someone launching a South Asia focus gallery that that was
spk_0
the cultural dynamic that had undergirded the way that most people in the West were thinking about
spk_0
art from the region. And so taking that on directly and inviting artists to work with that theme
spk_0
was a really important grounds for setting the ethos of the gallery and the types of critical
spk_0
questions we wanted to take on with the work we were doing. Yeah, and so what if, you know, I think
spk_0
that you've been working hard to get your artists into museum collections and really, you know,
spk_0
for this, really that legacy building. And now we're, you know, you're a new-ish gallery, you know,
spk_0
entering the global art market, you know, what specific strategies are you using to not only promote
spk_0
emerging artists, but also build those kind of enduring relationships with museums and collectors
spk_0
to ensure that long-term support. That's really, you know, important for the art ecosystem.
spk_0
I want people to understand South Asian artists bigger than a single gallery or a single artist,
spk_0
but as a larger cultural movement. And I want museums, collectors, spaces all over culture to feel
spk_0
like they're participating in something big that's happening in the global landscape right now,
spk_0
which I truly believe is true of this moment for South Asian visual culture broadly. So it's
spk_0
very important for me to not only be in constant communication with museums, so bring in curators,
spk_0
to introduce them to new artists, which has been going really well. We've been able to place
spk_0
quite a few works in museums in our first year and a half, which is something I'm very proud of.
spk_0
But I also want to think about the way that South Asian artists entering the wider culture broadly.
spk_0
And so we've had a partnership with the restaurant Dishoom in London. They launched a new restaurant
spk_0
with a lodging space above it called Dishoom Permter Room and Dishoom lodgings. And I curated a
spk_0
selection of prints for the lodgings where guests will stay and be immersed with South Asian art.
spk_0
That was a great example of the way that we wanted to take art above and beyond the gallery walls.
spk_0
I'm similarly thinking about how we can engage with the world of fashion. We're in Los Angeles,
spk_0
so it's very important for me to be in dialogue with the world of film and television, because these
spk_0
are the visual mediums through which South Asian work is largely entering the cultural mainstream.
spk_0
And so I think really being attuned to other nodal points within culture and how we can create
spk_0
not just one exciting gallery, but a larger movement that is shifting the culture from all
spk_0
directions is very much my philosophy. And I want people to be in coloring art and all parts of
spk_0
their lives. And I'm constantly thinking about new ways to go about that. Yes. And of course you've
spk_0
worked in film and television for over 10 years. And of course, you're still in Los Angeles,
spk_0
so you must be looking at scripts and have a foothold in that even as you're working on your gallery.
spk_0
So how just tells us a little bit about that experience?
spk_0
Yeah, I feel very fortunate to have the very specific and odd combination of skills.
spk_0
Former academic, I did my PhD at NYU and went through very rigorous traditional
spk_0
humanistic training in terms of how to think about culture, how to think about literature,
spk_0
how to think about film, and also how to think about contemporary art.
spk_0
I am so grateful for having that kind of intense training because I think fundamentally
spk_0
shifted the way I saw the world and it gave me just a critical framework to be able to take on
spk_0
the challenge of art in general. So I'm very grateful for having a very rigorous academic training
spk_0
through my PhD. I think I was able to just immerse myself in theory and in critical writing that
spk_0
gave me such an important framework for how to talk about culture and how to see culture.
spk_0
And then I went from that to almost the exact opposite to where I was working in development and
spk_0
marketing and production for television. And all of a sudden, I had to learn how to communicate
spk_0
in a very accessible way. I had to learn how to speak to a wide audience. And I had to bolster
spk_0
a lot of the skills I developed at academia with a lot more practical skills for the world of
spk_0
entertainment and advertising and marketing. And I think those two skills together,
spk_0
splitting the difference between them has been so helpful within the art world because I'm not
spk_0
only able to speak curatorially about the nature of the work, but then I'm also able to translate
spk_0
it in an accessible way for a wide audience. And I think one of the points of pride of the gallery
spk_0
is that we really want to be a space of accessibility, not in terms of the artwork. I want to show
spk_0
challenging, interesting work, but in terms of kind of research. I want people to come in and feel
spk_0
comfortable asking questions and improving their own palette and feeling more comfortable in a
spk_0
gallery setting. And I hope that through that experience, they can just engage with art even more
spk_0
broadly. And I think art is for everyone. It is something that everyone should be able to access
spk_0
if they're able to engage with what they're looking at. And I'm very deliberate in being very
spk_0
present in the gallery. I will give walkthroughs to almost anyone who comes in and make them feel
spk_0
welcome and make them feel comfortable and make them feel fluent in the artwork itself. I think
spk_0
my own experience through my twenties going to galleries, I often felt intimidated. I often
spk_0
didn't feel welcome. These were spaces where I didn't necessarily know people and you're all
spk_0
of a sudden coming into worlds that feel extremely rarefied. And while wanting to preserve the
spk_0
preciousness and the importance and significance of the work, I also wanted to infuse the gallery
spk_0
with a sense of hospitality and approachability. Yeah, that's something that I think that we could
spk_0
all learn more about. It seems like a great grounds for preparing you because you can't communicate
spk_0
in a very high-handed or academic way to people who are collectors or just want to appreciate the art.
spk_0
It's about emotions ultimately, but it's also about learning and expanding your consciousness.
spk_0
But it's about engaging their feelings with a hook that you would have that's a great experience
spk_0
to have that from the marketing end of film and television where you have to hook people quickly. If
spk_0
you lost them in the first two seconds or something, then they just move on. So I think that's great
spk_0
to find that midway because I feel like when I appreciate art, it's not that I always want to be
spk_0
learning something, but I think it's always great to have some kind of story behind it.
spk_0
So you're such as the immediate, you need those layers. And so I think that that's great that you
spk_0
learn those different storytelling modes. Absolutely. And I love the way you describe it as
spk_0
consciousness racing because that ultimately is the goal of art. I want people to not only have
spk_0
an intellectual experience, but a spiritual experience. I want them to be moved really deeply
spk_0
and to understand their capacity to discover new forms of meaning. With that first step of the
spk_0
hook and getting them in and engaged, they might leave the gallery with it, shifted understanding
spk_0
of the world. And if I can facilitate that, it is just an absolute honor and a privilege.
spk_0
And I think that South Asians, broadly or Indians in particular are great storytellers and they're
spk_0
often drawing upon so many centuries of mythologies that are, you know, and it's living with the
spk_0
ghosts, it's living with all these traditions. But in a very everyday way that I don't fully understand,
spk_0
but this is what has been communicated to me, you know, in a way that may be in the West that we
spk_0
forgotten a lot of our mythologies. We don't think about it so much. And I think that that, I don't
spk_0
know how you illuminated our illuminating that in different exhibitions. I am very interested in
spk_0
neomithology. I mean, for South Asian artists, it's impossible to stay away from mythology because
spk_0
that he is one of the biggest art historical and just visual reference were surrounded by. And so I
spk_0
love bringing artists who are reimagining mythology, especially as a grounds for personal storytelling.
spk_0
One artist I love working with who will have a solo with in the fall and who will also be in the
spk_0
Jipere exhibition is named Sahana Rana Krishnan. Sahana combines, you know, personal storytelling and
spk_0
personal writing, which will incorporate into the canvases with mythological references from
spk_0
not only Hindu and Himalayan mythology, but also European mythological traditions. And through
spk_0
that blending and syncretism of all these different traditions of the macro and the micro of the
spk_0
personal of the grandiose, she finds this beautiful language not only to think about storytelling
spk_0
broadly, but also to think about herself. And I'm personally on the lookout for mythological
spk_0
storytellers who are pushing boundaries and pushing that genre further in ways that I haven't seen.
spk_0
Yes. And so I mean, it must also be complex to bring because it's a large region with so many
spk_0
different traditions who just mentioned some of them. And of course, languages and the calligraphy
spk_0
and the, you know, so how do you you're going between different? How do you prioritize or how do
spk_0
you balance that because it's like we don't necessarily think of a bit like creating a gallery that's
spk_0
called the Western art gallery. You know, I mean, it's like a lot of traditions. Completely. And I
spk_0
took on that challenge almost immediately. I don't want to try and define South Asia through
spk_0
our through the gallery. Instead, I want to demonstrate the impossibility of defining South Asia through
spk_0
a single body of work because it is infinite and so multivariate and heterogeneous. All these
spk_0
group shows just start to scratch the surface of the multiplicity of perspectives that exist
spk_0
within the region. And I'm constantly looking to show perspectives that I haven't before and to
spk_0
demonstrate how many different cultures exist within the very broad umbrella of South Asia.
spk_0
I did an exhibition on Kerala last year and we'll be doing a similar one kind of as an annual return
spk_0
to that theme. And I grew up with a family from Kerala in a wider milieu of the South Asian
spk_0
diaspora where we were a linguistic minority comparatively to other folks who were
spk_0
Hindi, Gujarati or Punjabi speaking as the majority were. I quickly was attuned to the fact that
spk_0
Indian could mean very many different things. And so that mindset always sort of sunk in. And I want
spk_0
to stress there is no stable notion of what South Asian art is. It's simply an umbrella for
spk_0
infinite types of perspectives. I hope as people come into the gallery they leave with that perspective.
spk_0
Yes. And how it's very interesting. I mean, there's the arts of the everyday are there's the
spk_0
high art or the fine art, but I know there's so many traditions within textiles or calligraphy.
spk_0
You know, how are you honoring that? Those aspects of creativity and exhibitions.
spk_0
Absolutely. I think it is so important for contemporary South Asian art to think about
spk_0
living heritage because you have these craft traditions that are very much forms of contemporary art.
spk_0
They are made by living practitioners and they're often dismissed as less than or low art while
spk_0
being very rooted in lineages of making and really sharp perspectives about the culture.
spk_0
So I'm very interested in artists who bridge those gaps. Veraj Kanna is an artist who we work with
spk_0
quite a bit and who just launched this very exciting solo with the gallery and his work is in
spk_0
collaboration with CardiGars or traditional artisans who work in embroidery. And he was very much
spk_0
thinking about how contemporary art can also be a platform for showcasing India's living traditions.
spk_0
And I think I'm increasingly interested in practices that make those types of collaborative leaps
spk_0
because I do think living traditions are a very important part of the contemporary art world
spk_0
and should be in dialogue. They shouldn't be skewed in favor of more traditionally understood
spk_0
contemporary art. And that's something that is an ongoing conversation. Textile art is very
spk_0
important to me. We'll be showing another textile artist named Lakshmi Madhavan next month and she's
spk_0
working with the Balram Purim Weaving community in Kerala. It's one of the last communities that
spk_0
makes Kosovo, which is a heritage fabric from Kerala. And she again wanted to think about her own
spk_0
conceptual practice could be a means to highlight and preserve a craft form that is under threat
spk_0
of absolute disappearance. And so I'm very cognizant of the need to engage with craft traditions and
spk_0
to show that they belong within this dialogue. Oh yeah, I think we actually have an environmental
spk_0
channel as well. And so I think about the way the current contemporary textile industry,
spk_0
which is not, you know, it felt the dies. And this is another subject, but it's poisoning
spk_0
rivers and things like that. So I think it's good that we return in honor of these older traditions
spk_0
that I think are kinder to the environment, to our rivers and our soil. And I find that so many
spk_0
of the textile artists that I work with are very attuned to that question of sustainability
spk_0
and understanding that you can't really talk about the textile as a material without this
spk_0
immediate pressing concern of how it's affecting our natural world. Exactly. And thinking also about
spk_0
that broader range of the traditional, that everyday arts, I mean, you also think about culinary
spk_0
arts or music. There are all these ways in the classic gateways into a culture like before you
spk_0
get to know culture. These are like ways that are immediate. Absolutely. And these are, you know,
spk_0
kind of conversations we want to facilitate through the gallery work currently in the process of
spk_0
planning a very special culinary event with a chef here in LA. I'll hopefully have more details
spk_0
on that soon. And we're also bringing music into the gallery. In the past, we've worked with the
spk_0
artist, Sid Shredan, who someone I really admire and I think really captures the spirit of the
spk_0
gallery through his own musical practice. Hopefully we'll have some more to announce soon. So I do want
spk_0
to think about interdisciplinary and how different mediums can be in dialogue through the gallery.
spk_0
Yes. And there's of course a spiritual dimension to all arts, but I think particularly so in
spk_0
South Asia. Do you have some exhibitions down the line that are focusing on this?
spk_0
There are themes I want to explore. I think there's been a really beautiful
spk_0
resurgence of Neo-Tamphric art and thinking about Tampra as an artistic practice. And this is
spk_0
something that's very much on my radar and something I'd love to explore in a deeper way.
spk_0
I also am very moved by meditation as a practice. It's a very big part of my life. And it's
spk_0
something that I'm really interested in exploring in relation to art making and thinking about how
spk_0
not only the culture of meditation and yoga and all these different entry points for South Asian
spk_0
culture of the US have shaped the cultural consciousness, but specifically how meditative practices
spk_0
find their way into art making. Definitely something top of mind and something I have for
spk_0
in the next year or so. And could you tell us, I mean I know it's a bit tough to single out particular
spk_0
artworks or artists that have moved you or really made you think, but when you're approaching
spk_0
an artwork or an artist for the first time, what draws you in? And if you'd like to talk about
spk_0
particular works in our broader exhibitions, that would be great too. Yeah, I think of the
spk_0
magic moment happening at the intersection of intellect and spirit. I think when I am both
spk_0
deeply moved by a work of art, but also very intellectually stimulated, that's where I feel like
spk_0
something magic is happening. And I think the spiritual part of it can often be difficult to
spk_0
articulate. And the intellectual part can often be purely articulated, but often not felt.
spk_0
And when I'm able to blend those two experiences, I feel like that's the magic that Arkney
spk_0
create for me. There are a few really big moments I've had that I've really spoken to that.
spk_0
Many of the last few years, having in the pandemic, seeing Salmon Thor's exhibition at the Whitney
spk_0
Museum was a real breakthrough for me. I think I was just not only struck by his engagement with
spk_0
our history, just the vibrant use of color, the mark making, but also the deep feeling of longing
spk_0
and alienation and connection that he was able to communicate through his canvases and met exhibition.
spk_0
It was really a life-changing event for me because I walked out with a different understanding of
spk_0
the world and how feeling could be expressed visually. I had a really similar experience
spk_0
pollution-foyed retrospective at the National Gallery in London, where I had seen many
spk_0
pollution-foyed works throughout my life in different museum collections, but to see such a sweeping
spk_0
retrospective and to really understand his genius and the power of his manipulation of oil,
spk_0
I think it felt changed. I felt like something within me had shifted from my experience of
spk_0
incaltering one of the greats in that capacity. And there are many, many artists that I work with
spk_0
who have given me very similar feelings. Basha Chakrabarty is an artist who I love working with,
spk_0
and when I encountered her work for the first time in Los Angeles, I was so struck by the
spk_0
academic and scholarly rigor she brought to the work while also having this incredible sense of
spk_0
aesthetic groundedness and heart to the work as well. I left and I was just blown away by the
spk_0
number of ideas and the synthesis of scholarship she was able to bring into it, but I also was so
spk_0
struck by her construction of figures by her actual methods of making. She was using, you know,
spk_0
used clothing and indigo dye and all these different materials that were reimagined in such a
spk_0
powerful way. And so anytime I feel that intersection of head and heart and spirit, I know I'm onto
spk_0
something special. Yes, and you spoke about scholarship there and of course there are so many great
spk_0
writers from the region and the diaspora. I wonder are you engaging them in writing catalogs or,
spk_0
you know, doing a little bit of that intellectual excavation that you discussed?
spk_0
I really hope to. We haven't yet so far. I've been this sort of driving curatorial force up to
spk_0
this moment, but this is exactly something I want to take on because literature really is my first
spk_0
cultural love. If not film, I think the awakening I have that led me on the path to this career
spk_0
really started in my teenage years when I started really reading very seriously. I will never
spk_0
forget the experience of reading Jambalari for the first time and finding not only that she was
spk_0
depicting experiences that I found really accessible and familiar, but just aesthetically the
spk_0
sparseness of her prose, the way that she took that experience and immigrant alienation and
spk_0
transformative into aesthetic, I feel that there was like no looking back from that moment. I knew
spk_0
I needed to dedicate myself to the culture and pretty much every step I've taken in my life and my
spk_0
career since then has really been towards hopefully where I am now and where I'm going because I saw
spk_0
the power that great creativity can have to change lives. I'm always thinking about that initial
spk_0
kind of engagement with literature. I was an English major in undergrad. I was really interested
spk_0
in not only Jambalari's works, but also Salman Rushdie and Karen Desai. I was really fascinated with
spk_0
how literature was purchased as expanding and also bridging cultures across the world. I think
spk_0
that really was an important stepping stone towards coming to art. Yeah, some of those writers you
spk_0
mentioned, they really shape our thinking and I think of we mentioned now in Datti Roy or they
spk_0
haven't tried away from saying harsh truths and I mean she's as much an activist scholar as she is
spk_0
a fiction writer. So yeah, they're very powerful. I look forward to more of that because I love
spk_0
this kind of dialogue. Me too, I'm a painter but my first love and I still do write, but my first
spk_0
love is writing, but it was all writers and filmmakers. I didn't even think about inviting the artist
spk_0
to first, even though I'm an artist. But yeah, I think it all begins with story. I think that's
spk_0
the constant, right? Or with music too, which is even beyond words, but it's the most
spk_0
immediate thing and accessible thing if you're trying to explain the complexity of our
spk_0
interlives. I'm not going to paint a painting to talk about contemporary politics. That's not,
spk_0
I mean, it's not as quick as to say what I'm thinking, what I'm experiencing in this moment.
spk_0
And so it's always important to honor that, though sometimes writers get pushed off to the side,
spk_0
you know, fiction writers. The humanities in general we see a kind of, I mean, it's sad to say,
spk_0
because it doesn't get as many, you know, it's not rage-ging age. And so I feel we have to do all we can
spk_0
to champion it because I think, you know, particularly now, I mean, I would like to know your views
spk_0
on, you know, AI and how that's changing us and the arts and how we communicate with each other
spk_0
and the stories we tell. I mean, is there a place for, is there a place for slow artists and writers
spk_0
and filmmakers because it's, it's moving really fast? I think there's absolutely a place for
spk_0
traditional forms of art making and I think AI will only make them more rarefied and special.
spk_0
I think a lot about just the relationship between technology and creativity and look at the
spk_0
fashion world. Mass manufacturing didn't eliminate the desire for couture fashion. It actually just
spk_0
made it more valuable, more special, more rarefied. I do think that we are going to live a world with
spk_0
a lot of AI kind of slop, you know, filling our phones, filling our feeds. But I think the real
spk_0
life experience of seeing painting that comes from the human spirit on the human hand will retain
spk_0
its value. If not become more valuable in the wake of all that other work coming out. And I think
spk_0
the human ability to create is something we have to be socially invested in. I don't think this is
spk_0
about sticking our head in the sand and ignoring AI and pretending like it's not there. It is
spk_0
advancing technology, advances through human history that is part of the arc of humanity.
spk_0
I think it's important for us to celebrate the human in the wake of the non-humans rise.
spk_0
And so I will always stress the importance of coming in and seeing paintings in person
spk_0
of celebrating the artists themselves and understanding their practice because I think humanity
spk_0
something very worthy of preservation and celebration. Increasingly when people talk about AI
spk_0
and these very utopian terms, I find it a little bit scary to think that we can so quickly replace
spk_0
the human spirit. I don't want to deny it. I do think there are artists who are going to use it
spk_0
in very interesting and compelling ways and it'll be their medium and their tool. And I'm very
spk_0
open to that and I'm starting to see it already. But at the end of the day, I do want to put
spk_0
a stake in the ground for the importance of traditional forms of making and I want to show how
spk_0
they're increasingly threatened. I think that there will be a lot of costs. There are already a lot
spk_0
of cost savings in terms of those blockbuster films that already maybe seemed synthetic to me.
spk_0
In some ways, we have to protect our jobs and obviously you've seen that with the different
spk_0
strikes in LA from the entertainment industry. But the human two or three people talking in a room,
spk_0
I mean why would you even do that in AI? That's where it's digging up an old actor or something.
spk_0
But it wouldn't even make sense because it's just not going to move you. So I think that we really
spk_0
stake our claim to maybe the independent films and all these things that really is better done,
spk_0
you know, human to human, you know, is little artificiality as possible. So I'm not against the
spk_0
kind of, I can see that it can make sense, the cost savings. I've even seen some interesting things.
spk_0
I mean, they talk about fake news, but I've even seen some interesting sort of documentary
spk_0
visualizations of places that you can't go now. Like say we can't go into Israel, Gaza. You know,
spk_0
the journalists aren't allowed. So you put in the Doddy, put in some kind of reporter. And then this
spk_0
is what it kind of, it is here's an imagining or this would just be, and they're really impressive
spk_0
kind of visualizations on the level. I saw one or it was like on the level of like Spielberg,
spk_0
one like showing the situation in Iran at the moment. We have to make sure that we're not,
spk_0
you know, taking the AI for the real if it's not found out of fact. But I think that that can
spk_0
be helpful in terms of empathy building. But the other things I think we do have to protect ourselves
spk_0
because sadly this generation coming up, they may experience more of the fake before they get
spk_0
the real and they'll just lose all sense of, they'll just lose their bullshit, the textures.
spk_0
Yeah, my biggest concern is what's going to happen to the audience itself. And will there be an
spk_0
audience that even wants humanistic expression? I think a lot about social media that came before AI
spk_0
and how it fundamentally did shift, especially generationally the way people were experiencing
spk_0
things like fame and talent and visibility. And it did create a shift in terms of what,
spk_0
you know, audiences were looking for from pieces of art. People all of a sudden valued
spk_0
relatability above all else because that was the aesthetic category that social media was pushing
spk_0
above all else. So all of a sudden you'll hear audiences respond negatively to film and literature
spk_0
saying it wasn't relatable. I couldn't see myself in it because that's how social media trained them
spk_0
to engage with content. And I think there might be a very similar kind of shift that happens with AI
spk_0
where all of a sudden there's this expectation of on demand or sort of consumer driven perspectives
spk_0
because I do think there will come a time where you can type in what movie you want to watch and the
spk_0
AI will generate it for you. I think we're definitely headed towards that track. And I think
spk_0
what I want to preserve is the notion that actually the artist's perspective is really fundamental
spk_0
and you should engage and grapple with perspectives that are not like your own that are not already
spk_0
within your consciousness because that's how you expand your perspective. And so I think this is
spk_0
just sort of like a stake we have to make as AI rises and we have to sort of name it and call it
spk_0
without again being afraid of AI itself. Yeah I didn't mean to go so far into it but I think
spk_0
it's something that we have to in one thing that is interesting I have to say about it is that
spk_0
I mean you've seen the rise in the popularity of philosophers trying to understand this moment
spk_0
like philosophers are often well they were being neglected. Now I see all these philosophers even
spk_0
you know and neurosciences were they were even being employed by these technology companies
spk_0
I guess they have to like they have an ethics you know I don't know if they get to make the
spk_0
decisions right but they're there as a sort of watchdog whether they're effective or not so
spk_0
that's interesting because when you're confronted with another being another culture all these things
spk_0
you do ask then what what's important to me what is what is my perspective because this is obviously
spk_0
coming from someplace so different and so I think it's good that we question what our values are
spk_0
but I am concerned that in America they've pulled back on some of the legislation that Biden put
spk_0
in place those guardrails and regulations that even they were not adequate in a way but now I guess
spk_0
they've been repealed so that's concerning to me. Definitely and I think this is going to require
spk_0
like really concerted attention and will we have to want it I think that's why it's so essential
spk_0
that we're highlighting artists and emphasizing the importance of the human because the audience needs
spk_0
to want these protections in place. Yeah and I saw other things I mean under the Trump presidency
spk_0
I actually didn't realize that he withdrawn from UNESCO before but then he repeated this now he's
spk_0
just done it again so we see the rise of the importance of galleries of private foundations because
spk_0
these other government funded projects just aren't there MPR is no longer funded by the guy you
spk_0
know these things I thought there were sort of like guaranteed to have support because they're
spk_0
for the public good it's disparaging but it also speaks to the importance of individuals and
spk_0
companies and like yourself doing the good work. Yeah I just want to share my passion for art and
spk_0
if I can make that even a little bit contagious I hope that we can build you know audiences that
spk_0
really want to see this preserved and want to think about how they can contribute. I think one of
spk_0
the most exciting things about the galleries we've gotten a lot of young folks involved in museum
spk_0
philanthropy and making donations to museums of artworks and thinking about what responsibility
spk_0
and agency they have in protecting preserving culture and that is very much part of the gallery
spk_0
mission and something that I hope to really promote and scale. Yeah and you were speaking about
spk_0
the spiritual dimension you're talking about different places around South Asia I mean could you
spk_0
tell us a little bit you know about your memories the beauty and wonder of the natural world how
spk_0
the you know through your travels or even in America how did how is that landscape part of your
spk_0
practice. For me it is most clear in carolah where my family is from I even just recently it was just
spk_0
before the pandemic in 2020 I was in carola with some friends who had never been there in the
spk_0
other four and I took them on a trip on the backwaters and I myself was just struck by this sense of
spk_0
awe of the incredible landscape but also knowing my own connection to it but this is where my
spk_0
family was from this is where all my ancestors were this was our place and feeling this really
spk_0
deep sense of like not only wonder but connection to that wonder. Carola is such an important place
spk_0
to me in my family I think part of why I wanted to do the exhibition on carola and bring carola
spk_0
to LA in a specific way is I think I was very conscious of the loss of my parents' experience
spk_0
leaving carolah and moving to the US because they had such a close attachment to this place my
spk_0
dad's family was in the shipping industry for generations and there was this strong connection to
spk_0
the sea and sort of carolah is this point of connection to the wider world my mom's out of the
spk_0
family were civil servants and felt very invested in the preservation and protection of the state
spk_0
and so through all of that I think it was just absolutely encapsulated by that experience
spk_0
of the backwaters which I know often gets treated as this purely terristic experience but one
spk_0
that I think is so emblematic of the natural beauty of carola and also just the magic of the place
spk_0
when you're traveling on the backwaters you also see this incredible sense of humanity you see
spk_0
this incredible sense of coexistence between Hinduism and Christianity and Islam that's so unique
spk_0
in carola you see the kind of political revolutionaries that have shaped the landscape through the
spk_0
types of sloganiering throughout the state it's not only a glimpse of an unbelievable landscape but
spk_0
also a beautiful vibrant topistry of humanity and I think I carry that with me all the time yeah that's
spk_0
a really strong message for hope and I think that that's what the arts can do I mean we also touched
spk_0
upon some I mean we're living definitely an interesting times everything's moving so quickly so
spk_0
as you think about the future maybe some of those life lessons that were passed on to you by
spk_0
potent teachers or parents you know what would you like young people to know preserve and remember
spk_0
I want people to believe in the capacity for art to change lives I don't want art to simply be
spk_0
something to consume or maybe to passively share online but something to deeply grapple and engage
spk_0
with knowing that art can completely shift the way you see the world and I think that treating it
spk_0
both with that seriousness but also again thinking about ways to make it more accessible is such a big
spk_0
part of my mission because I do want to believe in a world where artists celebrate by a wide audience
spk_0
I want to believe in a world where artists I work with come household names that they could have
spk_0
that kind of impact on the culture that people know them widely that is true of since select artists
spk_0
and I want to make that even more possible it's a utopian dream but it's one that I want to still
spk_0
work towards nonetheless with the belief that it could be possible because I do see the artists I
spk_0
work with as culture changers and I just want to spread that message well thank you for your
spk_0
sincerity and passion we believe that strongly the art can change the world can shift perspectives
spk_0
can open our minds so thank you Rajiv Menon for sharing your vision and creating a unique space
spk_0
in the contemporary art world which honors artists past and present and their unique contributions
spk_0
to art and society and increasing understanding and connection in the divided world thank you
spk_0
for adding your voice to the creative process thank you so much for having me I love this conversation
spk_0
the creative process podcast is supported by the Jan Mishowsky Foundation this interview was
spk_0
conducted by Mia Funk with the participation of collaborating universities and students the
spk_0
associate interview producers on this episode were Sophie Garnier and Jamie Lammer's the creative
spk_0
process is produced by Mia Funk with additional production support by Katie Foster winter time was
spk_0
composed by Nicholas Anadolus and performed by the Athenian trio we hope you enjoy listening to
spk_0
this podcast if you'd like to get involved with our creative community exhibitions or our podcasts
spk_0
or submit your creative works for review just follow us on Instagram at creative process podcast
spk_0
and send us a DM thank you for listening