Anti-Mormonism and Kirtland Blessings - John Turner Pt. 16 | Ep. 2067

Interactive Transcript

spk_0 Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast Joseph Smith edition or

spk_0 The Joseph Smith podcast as I like to call it my name is John Delin. It is September 23rd

spk_0 2025 and today we are now 16 episodes in

spk_0 to our series with scholar John Turner about his new groundbreaking

spk_0 I call it a groundbreaking book Joseph Smith the rise and fall of an American prophet

spk_0 This is published by Yale University Press many of you have been loving loving loving this series and the purpose of this series

spk_0 If you are new to this series is to just have a super reputable

spk_0 thoughtful

spk_0 scholar who has never been Mormon is not ex-mormon

spk_0 Calling what I like to say balls and strikes

spk_0 regarding

spk_0 Joseph Smith in his history but also

spk_0 digging deeper than we've ever dug before on Mormon stories

spk_0 into Joseph Smith's history and I'm learning a ton and that's after reading you know roughstone rolling

spk_0 That's after reading Fon Brody's no men as a history now twice. I'm learning stuff every chapter that I've never learned before

spk_0 So I highly recommend this book please buy it. We're you know getting no endorsements from anyone

spk_0 It's just a really good read really worthwhile read. Please make it

spk_0 International bestseller and we also appreciate your feedback and comments

spk_0 I just want to quickly thank our donors who make this show show possible. We don't

spk_0 Live and die by our Google ads or our YouTube ads or sponsorships. We don't really do sponsorships

spk_0 We rely on our donors through our nonprofit to make all this possible

spk_0 So thanks if you donate to Mormon stories generally and for those of you who've donated specifically

spk_0 To the Joseph Smith podcast project with John Turner

spk_0 You've helped us be able to make sure that we can fund at least all the episodes we want for this book all the way through

spk_0 If you value this series with John Turner and you want to see it continue in however way

spk_0 We decide to continue it if we continue it you can go to donorbox.org slash Joseph Smith

spk_0 and donate to the continuation of this partnership and project today we are going to be covering chapter 15

spk_0 Of this book the dates are 1834 to 1835 the title of the chapter is a blessings

spk_0 We're going to be talking a lot about patriarchal blessings about other types of blessings

spk_0 We're also going to be talking about anti-mormonism

spk_0 specifically

spk_0 ED

spk_0 House book Mormonism unveiled how that affected the church

spk_0 We're going to talk about the dr. Incovenants section dr. Incovenants 1835 edition

spk_0 The lectures on faith

spk_0 We're also going to be talking about the formation of the quorum of the 12 apostles the 70

spk_0 And the office of patriarch within the church patriarchal blessings

spk_0 Even going to be talking about the quorum of the 70

spk_0 And many other things

spk_0 So without any further ado

spk_0 John Turner welcome back to Mormon stories podcast

spk_0 Thanks john dillan great to be back since I was last with you. I had a quick trip to

spk_0 the Zion

spk_0 Independence Jackson County Missouri for the John Whitmer Historical Association meeting that was a lot of fun made

spk_0 It just it was it was particularly exciting to me to be there right after

spk_0 We had recorded our science camp episode

spk_0 Fortunately there was no hail storm

spk_0 To interrupt the the conference all went well

spk_0 Comments what about a comet shower no comet showers although it would have been harder to see from my best western hotel room

spk_0 But I'm excited to be back with you and

spk_0 We are almost almost halfway through

spk_0 um just get the rise and fall of an American prophet and I'm grateful

spk_0 To everyone who's been listening and supporting this podcast

spk_0 Yeah, man 16 episodes that's no small feet. We're about to surpass our

spk_0 Our number with Matt Harris. So that's that's no small feet. Okay. Well you can have him back when he has this hubi brown

spk_0 Bography out if he wants he knows he's welcome um

spk_0 John Whitmer

spk_0 Conference is

spk_0 Like the second of two of the biggest

spk_0 Mormon history annual conferences, right? It's the Mormon History Association then John Whitmer. Is that right?

spk_0 Yes, so name for John Whitmer who

spk_0 Joseph tasked Joseph Smith tasked uh in i think

spk_0 uh

spk_0 1831 with keeping a history of the church and yeah, I'd say it's

spk_0 You know an organization that has a particular relationship with community of

spk_0 But also attracts all sorts of people who are interested in restoration studies

spk_0 And it was a lot of fun a lot of great people there

spk_0 Well, one of these days I want to go to both

spk_0 MHA and John Whitmer maybe 2026 will be my year for that so

spk_0 All right, well, what's that? I said you should do it. Uh MHA's in Vegas

spk_0 Uh this coming June which all right

spk_0 Thank you. That's a pretty crazy place for a Mormon History Association meeting

spk_0 I'm sold. I'm sold. Most people don't know that Vegas has a pretty

spk_0 formidable Mormon

spk_0 Founding the the city of Las Vegas

spk_0 Mormons are heavily involved in its founding

spk_0 Very much so uh part of the string of Mormon settlements that stretch to San Bernardino, California

spk_0 Right

spk_0 Right all right. Well, yeah, we did uh Zines camp last time. I I learned a lot

spk_0 And uh I'm excited to dig in today, but before we do

spk_0 We got one comment that I think it'd be fun to address. We really welcome

spk_0 Comments either through email at mormastoresagema.com or on our YouTube channel

spk_0 We try to read them all I think we do read them all and this one touches on

spk_0 There are a lot of faithful Mormons that are uncomfortable with the stone in the hat narrative

spk_0 It kind of that they're similar

spk_0 They're similar latter-day Saints who are also concerned

spk_0 About the claim that Joseph Smith practice polygamy

spk_0 There are also sometimes the ones that believe that Joseph Smith

spk_0 Was assassinated through an inside job. There's kind of these groups that

spk_0 Are faithful Mormons? They're more on the prepper side sometimes and

spk_0 They're there's sometimes more on the conspiracy theory side

spk_0 Um, not to label them or disparage them

spk_0 But that's kind of the context for why we're going to be reading

spk_0 This longer comment and just letting

spk_0 John Turner respond to it and it's because we've covered

spk_0 The peepstone in the hat the translation multiple times

spk_0 In past episodes and so this is giving John Turner a chance to respond

spk_0 To a common claim

spk_0 Around the Irmum Thumum versus the this your stone in the hat

spk_0 narratives um

spk_0 You know

spk_0 That are prevalent in these days. So should we jump in John go for it any pre any disclaimer you want to give or or context before I jump in

spk_0 Well, I think the only if people aren't familiar what you're referring to is the

spk_0 Sources that suggest that at least some of the time during the book of Mormon translation

spk_0 Joseph placed one of his sear stones or peepstones in a hat blocked out the light and

spk_0 looked into it as he

spk_0 Dictated the text of the book of Mormon. Yeah, and for and for those who are just joining us blindly

spk_0 I'm you know for the 45 years. I was an active faithful Mormon give or take

spk_0 Uh, I was taught one narrative which is the Joseph Smith got you know this year

spk_0 A month umum which were these spectacles with glasses and a breastplate and some type of attachment

spk_0 And he would put the plates down on the table put on the Irmum Thumum and translate word for word

spk_0 The golden plates into English and that's all most of us ever heard of for

spk_0 All of our lives as members. We never even heard of a steer sear stone in a hat at all

spk_0 um and um and we've covered that in depth. So

spk_0 Um a lot of people these days are just going to be disturbed number one that

spk_0 The idea of a stone in a hat means something was hid from them

spk_0 And then the idea of a stone in a hat sounds weird

spk_0 Uh, and then also uh the stone in the hat

spk_0 Was used in treasure digging. So if he was a treasure digger

spk_0 And he is a stone in a hat for that and then he used the stone in the hat

spk_0 For trans you know lady in the book of Mormon to some that infects the book of Mormon with a cult or folk magic

spk_0 Behaviors and these are all the reasons if if there's motivated reasoning in the comment. I'm about to read

spk_0 It could be based in at least those three concerns. Did I get them john turner? Do you think?

spk_0 I think that's fair

spk_0 We're speculating on people's you know motives, but

spk_0 I think context matters

spk_0 But we'll just now what what historians do is they just rely on the documents and that's

spk_0 That's why we love history and that's why we love having you on the show john turner

spk_0 All right, so I'm gonna start reading you pause me and and you jump in whenever you want is that okay?

spk_0 You got it. I might let you go all the way and then and then comment okay

spk_0 comprehensively, but we'll see totally up to you. So

spk_0 four Zion 1894 wrote the following

spk_0 Uh, I know most viewers will not like this

spk_0 But it myths the bias and misinformation rampant throughout this video and it's referring to one of our videos

spk_0 john asks a reasonable question at around the 40 minute 30 second point

spk_0 The question is what was said about the translation in the early year?

spk_0 So that's the question we're gonna address right now

spk_0 Here's the actual information. So here they're they're laying it down now john turner

spk_0 Here's the actual information

spk_0 aside from a confused non-LDS newspaper account

spk_0 That the writer himself acknowledged was third-hand hearsay. So let's pause

spk_0 So they're already like taking an early source and discrediting it and not actually mentioning it

spk_0 So what is the do you know what the confused non-LDS newspaper account that the writer himself acknowledged was third-hand hearsay

spk_0 What is that source? They're already trying to poison the well

spk_0 with

spk_0 Okay, well first of all, I'm just I am gonna just

spk_0 Back up slightly and say

spk_0 It's never a bad thing to and they're they're complimenting you for it john Dylan

spk_0 To ask for the sources to ask for the information you know the I guess at one point you had said what was said about the translation in the early years

spk_0 Which is a fine question. I think also

spk_0 Question alongside it would be what did people who were in the no say about it in the later years? That would be fine too

spk_0 um and

spk_0 You know, I actually think whether the subject is

spk_0 polygamy or book of Mormon translation or book of Abraham

spk_0 You know oftentimes

spk_0 Historians and sometimes church authorities will declare something settled and you know

spk_0 There's no need for further discussion. I actually think it's totally fine to always be going back to to some of these questions and to

spk_0 To take a new look at

spk_0 evidence, but

spk_0 specifically in terms of the early newspaper account

spk_0 I don't know

spk_0 Which source the commenter is referring to but it might be in

spk_0 1829 account from the palmyra

spk_0 Freeman

spk_0 And it's editor Jonathan Hadley

spk_0 There's a very interesting

spk_0 um

spk_0 Report there

spk_0 uh

spk_0 Which suggests that by placing the spectacles in a hat and looking into it

spk_0 Smith could

spk_0 Interpret these characters

spk_0 I think that's a good clue and there are there are quite a few

spk_0 Other sources along those lines that suggest that whatever

spk_0 Uh Smith used whether we want to call it spectacles director or emin thumem

spk_0 um

spk_0 searstone

spk_0 blocking out light by putting um

spk_0 The object in a hat does seem to have been part of the method

spk_0 So I think from the start that's important whether or not it's or emin thumem or searstone

spk_0 um

spk_0 Smith did

spk_0 Uh put this object in a hat at least some of the time block out the light and dictate

spk_0 And again, what's so you're saying 1829

spk_0 Who's the witness that's reporting that information

spk_0 So it's a palmyra

spk_0 Uh newspaper editor named Jonathan Hadley now

spk_0 Claiming who is the source of that information

spk_0 I'm not sure so I think it's not unfair to say that it's hearsay um

spk_0 You know, I'm not sure if you've heard it from margin hairist

spk_0 The fact that it's corroborated later by Emma

spk_0 By Whitmer by Caldrey by Harris right that that bolsters its credibility right right so Joseph night for instance

spk_0 stalwart supporter of Joseph Smith

spk_0 uh said now the way he translated was he put the urm and thumem into his hat and darkened his eyes

spk_0 so

spk_0 I think we have sufficient evidence

spk_0 Uh to conclude that Joseph put something in a hat and blocked out the light during the translation process

spk_0 Okay, okay, and julie is julie has found a reference to that so she'll include it

spk_0 In the show notes. Okay, so that's interesting

spk_0 now that now the the commenter wants to just

spk_0 assuming that this is the source

spk_0 They're referring to they just want to dismiss it out of hand

spk_0 And I guess you would say it's not a source that in your opinion

spk_0 would be just something

spk_0 worthy of dismissing out of hand

spk_0 well correct because

spk_0 um at least

spk_0 Much of the information in the sources corroborated from

spk_0 less hostile sources you could say

spk_0 Okay, it certainly is early you don't get much earlier than 1829 right? It's really early. Yeah, I totally agree

spk_0 Okay

spk_0 Um, okay, they go under right the earliest account is an article in a Boston newspaper in early 1832

spk_0 Of an interview with orson hide and say mill smith

spk_0 Who is one of his brother's scribes and later one of the witnesses

spk_0 um now is that true that there's nothing between 1829 and this 1832 Boston newspaper account or do you

spk_0 You may that may be asking you um

spk_0 On the spot

spk_0 Yeah, so

spk_0 I'm less certain now we do have

spk_0 We do have some comments from

spk_0 Joseph smith i think in 1831

spk_0 In which he states that he doesn't want to go into the particulars of the translation

spk_0 So he's kind of avoiding he's avoiding addressing a subject that may be

spk_0 sensitive or awkward may correct um or

spk_0 We could just say you know, we don't know exactly why he chooses not to go into it

spk_0 But he doesn't want to go into it and it doesn't choose to say much in

spk_0 The formatter to the book of Mormon itself either

spk_0 Yeah, okay

spk_0 But but if he you know, let's just say there's two theories one is that it's

spk_0 You know stonin stonin a hat or objects in a hat

spk_0 versus like

spk_0 pristine year-imum thumbum from the Old Testament

spk_0 It that the Joseph smith not wanting to talk about it

spk_0 might favor the the stonin the hat

spk_0 For the reasons that it's uh an awkward thing to talk about maybe

spk_0 could be um and

spk_0 Yeah, I think I think I you know, he just doesn't give us much to go on he

spk_0 You know, I think that's he does have some later references to having used the euro m and thumbum

spk_0 I think I think one other key point is that term does not

spk_0 Really enter the conversation until I think the mid 1830s

spk_0 I don't remember the exact year the earlier references for instance in

spk_0 Joseph's 1832 history

spk_0 I believe they simply refer to either spectacles or

spk_0 interpreters

spk_0 So your m and thumbum doesn't come on the scene until mid 1830s correct

spk_0 I am wasn't wasn't he doing a co-vision with somebody else and it was the other person that mentioned

spk_0 Spectacles or seeing something that kind of forced Joseph into

spk_0 Introducing that into the narrative

spk_0 Samuel Lawrence julias reminding me

spk_0 Yeah, I'm not entirely sure and I should check the exact date, but the the earliest um

spk_0 The earliest sources produced by jesus smith himself. They don't use the term or m and thumbum

spk_0 Um, it's it's a bit later

spk_0 Okay

spk_0 Yeah, all right

spk_0 So while maybe joseph doesn't introduce that term until the mid 1830s

spk_0 We've got is it is it accurate that this boss of newspaper is introducing the year m and thumbum

spk_0 Uh, you know artifact in the 1832 time print

spk_0 I'm gonna trust the commenter on that I'd have to go back and take a look at the article. I do think you start seeing it in

spk_0 um

spk_0 church

spk_0 Church sources um by late 1832

spk_0 Maybe early 1833. I'm pretty sure joseph doesn't use the term in his earliest history

spk_0 Okay, so I wonder where the boss of newspaper would be getting this claim about the ear m and thumb

spk_0 Maybe it was becoming maybe it was entering

spk_0 uh circulation among church members. It's that's definitely possible

spk_0 But there's no there's no like marona gave me a year m and thumbum

spk_0 prior to 1832 by joseph

spk_0 So

spk_0 Yeah, and well, and if you think about what is described in the book of Mormon

spk_0 So it's that an ancient prophet mosaia

spk_0 uh translates using interpreters two stones

spk_0 attached to the two rims of a bow

spk_0 and

spk_0 possessing these interpreters is what

spk_0 Essentially makes someone a seer

spk_0 and then joseph reports

spk_0 finding

spk_0 That interpretive device alongside the gold plates

spk_0 um

spk_0 Now

spk_0 This is another you know, it's that reports that when

spk_0 I think right from from the get go

spk_0 Okay, so he is reporting finding the ear m and thumbum along with the term or a m and thumbum is not used

spk_0 uh, it's simply

spk_0 stones attached to the two rims of a bow something and sometimes the term spectacles is used

spk_0 Lucy Max Smith as as far as I know is

spk_0 um

spk_0 At least one of maybe the only uh or at least one of a very few

spk_0 um

spk_0 First hand sources about this object which she reports having felt under a cloth

spk_0 so

spk_0 This discussion is a little bit akin to our discussion of the gold plates

spk_0 It's clear that joseph has some sort of special object

spk_0 And he doesn't make it accessible to anybody else for cooperation in an ordinary way

spk_0 Yeah, it's like it's it's this pattern of like having objects

spk_0 But not wanting to show them to people

spk_0 Click claiming to have objects

spk_0 Not wanting to show them to people covering them with some type of cloth

spk_0 And then it begs a question of whether he

spk_0 produces some type of artifact

spk_0 to feel

spk_0 By the hand as if it's the thing he's claiming to possess

spk_0 But not wanting to actually show people the actual

spk_0 Objects exactly it's a pattern. It's a pattern right no. I think I think that's totally fair and

spk_0 You know the so I would I would sort of back up and and say two other things is you know

spk_0 Number one um, I think

spk_0 We can feel confident that

spk_0 One way or another joseph used

spk_0 Uh, stones as part of the translation process

spk_0 Now whether we want to think about them as new stones

spk_0 Connected to the rims of a bow

spk_0 Or whether we want to simply think about them as josephs

spk_0 Sear stones already in his possession

spk_0 You know one way or another he's he's he's using special stones

spk_0 You could say and then again. Yes. He's not he's not allowing

spk_0 Others to examine them and then what I think makes this

spk_0 Discussion complicated is there are only so many people who have some

spk_0 Uh first-hand sense of what

spk_0 Joseph's doing so Joseph himself of course

spk_0 His scribes Martin Harris Oliver Cowdery

spk_0 Uh, Emma Smith who also perhaps

spk_0 Scribed a little bit for him as well

spk_0 Maybe some other family members maybe some of the whipmers

spk_0 Now most of those individuals uh, Harris

spk_0 Cowdery I think John and David Whipmer

spk_0 In their later recollections they used

spk_0 They both referred to Joseph using uraman thumam

spk_0 And also referred to Joseph translating

spk_0 By placing a sear stone in a hat and blocking out the light

spk_0 I don't know that we necessarily

spk_0 You know, we don't have a lot of first we don't have much first-hand evidence from Joseph himself

spk_0 I don't think we know

spk_0 Whether he used the same translation method the whole time

spk_0 I actually find it a little bit um

spk_0 I don't know amusing or hard to believe that

spk_0 Joseph for

spk_0 Weeks on end would have had his head in a hat

spk_0 I would have thought think he would end it up with an extremely stiff neck

spk_0 um

spk_0 But it's it seems like he did use that method some of the time

spk_0 Um, and I think we have to say we don't know exactly what he put in the hat

spk_0 Uh, whether they were new stones whether they were the stones he already had

spk_0 whether it was a mix of both um

spk_0 Uh, and I think

spk_0 What's also interesting here is for the most part this is an intra faithful Mormon argument

spk_0 Uh, because the church's more recent statements on the book of Mormon translation

spk_0 both discuss uraman thumam and Joseph putting a sear stone in a hat

spk_0 And there are some faithful Mormons who think

spk_0 I think this is my interpretation who believe the church has ceded too much ground

spk_0 Uh to its critics by acknowledging

spk_0 Uh, that stone in the hat may at least have been part of the method

spk_0 Okay, and just to kind of cut to the chase

spk_0 Well, it sounds like Joseph

spk_0 Didn't want to um, I mean, I think what what some might suspect is that

spk_0 Joseph did make

spk_0 claims about spectacles and or uraman thumam

spk_0 Or along various different um parts of the time frame

spk_0 Joseph clearly likely did use a hat and potentially his sear stone and or some sort of spectacles in the hat

spk_0 But that

spk_0 Joseph just

spk_0 Didn't want to ever really fess up to that

spk_0 And so he

spk_0 He just decided that he wanted to try and just

spk_0 Change the narrative so that it was always a uraman thumam and not ever a hat

spk_0 With the stone

spk_0 Maybe because it's associated with treasure digging maybe because it's less

spk_0 respectable maybe because it's less biblical

spk_0 And there was just an attempt to maybe

spk_0 rewrite history a little bit and um

spk_0 And I think over time it seems like what the church did is they they actually did it in reverse in a way and started

spk_0 Being comfortable calling the sear stone a uraman thumam

spk_0 Um

spk_0 In a way to just sort of

spk_0 Try to get rid of the hat and or the sear stone altogether for a long period of time

spk_0 Isn't that true that the church has called

spk_0 His his treasure digging sear stone a uraman thumam at different points

spk_0 I think you're right, but I'd have to go back and look at the sources and then I think but what I think is

spk_0 Perhaps driving the conversation now is that over the last couple of decades

spk_0 Uh the church

spk_0 Has been far more open to

spk_0 These I I don't know whether you would call them contradictory or supplemental accounts of the translation process that talk about the sear stone and

spk_0 You know is is putting those sources out there for for people to uh examine

spk_0 and

spk_0 I think that new information

spk_0 Makes what some people want to defend

spk_0 The more traditional narrative. I think that's what's what's going on

spk_0 Okay

spk_0 All right because again not not to drag this out too too much longer

spk_0 Eventually

spk_0 Can you name all the witnesses that are claiming a stone in the hat?

spk_0 Well, I'd have to go back and and take a look at the detail

spk_0 So there's uh, let me just say for readers who are interested

spk_0 Um, right jack Welch put together a compilation of

spk_0 Um all of these sources a number of years ago

spk_0 um

spk_0 Jeff Lindsay in the interpreter

spk_0 um has

spk_0 Um a rather long piece going through a lot of these sources that's that's also

spk_0 useful but at a minimum modern Harris

spk_0 uh, Emma Emma Smith bit him in

spk_0 Um, I think Oliver Cowdery. I think John and David Whitmer

spk_0 I think you know one one reason why people question those accounts is that on balance

spk_0 they are

spk_0 You know, they are later retrospective accounts

spk_0 But they are from all of the principles and we do have very early accounts

spk_0 um, attesting to the fact that Joseph put

spk_0 Some sort of object in a hat

spk_0 So if you put those things together um it

spk_0 It seems a reasonable conclusion that at least part of the time um, he translated

spk_0 By putting a sear stone in the hat and dictating

spk_0 It seems like what what this writer is trying to do is say that because

spk_0 A stone in the hat was mentioned in Mormonism unveiled which we're going to be talking about later

spk_0 That that um

spk_0 That that makes the claim not credible that there was ever a stone in the hat actually used because it's tainted

spk_0 By an anti-mormon which is a really good setup for the chapter we're about to go into

spk_0 Um, but yeah, that's a professional

spk_0 Segway John Dillon

spk_0 Right, but but really quickly they also want to say that you can't believe David Whitmer

spk_0 Because she says what here she says Whitmer was never a scribe and there's no evidence that he actually

spk_0 Uh saw the translation process. What do you think about discrediting Whitmer

spk_0 By the claim that he he was never a scribe

spk_0 Well, no, I mean

spk_0 so

spk_0 obviously

spk_0 Joseph made it difficult for us to know the details. I think

spk_0 All along the way

spk_0 he didn't show

spk_0 These special objects plates and interpreters to anyone in an ordinary way

spk_0 And at least some of the time he separated himself

spk_0 Uh from his scribe during the actual translation process

spk_0 So with the exception of Joseph himself

spk_0 um

spk_0 You know almost any information is by definition secondhand

spk_0 Now Martin Harris who's there with Joseph is at the outset as his scribe um he does refer to

spk_0 Stone in the hat on some later occasions at least according

spk_0 To people who are reporting his comments

spk_0 So I think I think there's plenty of evidence

spk_0 Uh for Joseph's use of a searstone

spk_0 There's even more overwhelming evidence for Joseph's use of the hat

spk_0 Um, you know, we we know I think um as much as we could know anything about the translation process that at least

spk_0 Um some of the time Joseph was

spk_0 Bearing his face in a hat

spk_0 Okay

spk_0 Okay, and then they also trying to discredit uh

spk_0 Emma's account

spk_0 saying um

spk_0 The plates were covered all the time

spk_0 So Emma's account is secondhand so it's not reliable and it's not reliable also because she

spk_0 She denied Joseph's polygamy practice in the same document

spk_0 So that's why Emma's account of the stone in the hat shouldn't be believed

spk_0 All right, well, I think this points to a larger issue with um

spk_0 early Mormon history and that it's often possible to

spk_0 raise

spk_0 Douts sometimes legitimate doubts about any single source

spk_0 but if you look at the

spk_0 Um if you look at the

spk_0 Overall evidence all the pieces of evidence that we have

spk_0 I think there's enough to go on to suggest that at least some of the time

spk_0 Joseph was using a searstone that he already possessed

spk_0 For the book of Mormon translation in a way that resembled

spk_0 um the method that he had used to find buried treasures

spk_0 Right

spk_0 Yeah, okay

spk_0 All right, well um

spk_0 So I guess that maybe we've covered this enough

spk_0 I think I think we can leave it there for now. It's a fun subject um yeah, and I think there's always

spk_0 You know, there's always a lot of gris for discussion because

spk_0 We have all of this evidence. We have all of these different sources, but my goodness wouldn't we want to know more?

spk_0 Yeah

spk_0 Okay, well, you know, it it there's this weird phenomenon popping up

spk_0 normally

spk_0 historically when the church speaks

spk_0 the conversations over and

spk_0 historically there was this official narrative which was problematic

spk_0 but all the apologists would just

spk_0 Usually just support the church's narrative

spk_0 There's a weird thing happening on the internet in the past few years

spk_0 where the church will come out and say Joseph Smith was a pligumist or

spk_0 Joseph Smith did use a stone in the hat and they'll be these sort of

spk_0 more ultra conservative

spk_0 faithful Mormons that are just willing to say the church is getting this part wrong

spk_0 But they're you know, and then that's something that we haven't really seen before we've always seen critics

spk_0 willing to contradict the church

spk_0 But it's it's kind of weird to see faithful Mormons

spk_0 saying for whatever reason whether it's their moles in the church or the church is becoming corrupt or the church history department

spk_0 Is becoming corrupt

spk_0 You know, we're getting faithful Mormons who are actively attending church who are saying

spk_0 Joseph never church practice pligumist the church has it wrong Joseph never used the stone in the hat the church has it wrong

spk_0 And I'm just waiting for the day where the church feels like they have to crack down on those people

spk_0 Because historically you get in a trouble when you contradict the church's narrative and you're an active faithful member

spk_0 It is a really interesting dynamic

spk_0 I think it probably points to the

spk_0 larger difficulty that any institution or movement faces in

spk_0 2025 in terms of

spk_0 You know controlling or shaping a narrative and

spk_0 the fact that

spk_0 You know, there's just less control

spk_0 You can see the same thing in in our politics as well

spk_0 um

spk_0 I will say you know, it's a it's very much a

spk_0 Joseph Smith-like attitude though

spk_0 To you know, we talked about in episode one

spk_0 Joseph came from a family

spk_0 That didn't like other people telling them what to think

spk_0 Uh, whether that was doctors or ministers or social

spk_0 superiors alleged social superiors the Smiths

spk_0 They always wanted to trust their own instincts

spk_0 They were skeptical of received

spk_0 authority

spk_0 Um, they didn't like being told what to think or to do and

spk_0 Does seem that some of Joseph Smith's ecclesiastical descendants they might have the same attitude

spk_0 Yeah

spk_0 Yeah, and and just like when the church finally cracked down and killed polygamy

spk_0 Let's just say in 1915-ish

spk_0 1910-1915

spk_0 there were 10-20 years of

spk_0 uh, you know

spk_0 Problems with faithful members who

spk_0 We're struggling to adjust to the change

spk_0 And if the churches get have one official narrative for a long time, which is your mumbum no stone in the hat

spk_0 It just makes perfect sense that there's going to be struggling faithful members that are like wait

spk_0 You changed the narrative or wait this sounds bad or wait this makes me uncomfortable

spk_0 It seems like that that might be what's going on. Yeah, no absolutely

spk_0 Okay, well, that's fun

spk_0 Thanks thanks for covering that john Turner and viewers and listeners you let us know if you felt like that was a worthwhile exchange or if we

spk_0 Wasted your time, but I think it was um, I think it's a fun and interesting topic to kind of at least um

spk_0 Broach so thanks john Turner for weighing in

spk_0 You got always

spk_0 Okay, so uh

spk_0 Joseph Smith returns the chapter begins with Joseph Smith returning

spk_0 To uh curtlin from zion's camp um and uh, you know and you start setting the stage for what he returns to should we start there

spk_0 Sure, so this is a little bit of a counterpoint to the end of the prior chapter

spk_0 Because Joseph does

spk_0 return to a share of

spk_0 criticism

spk_0 uh, namely from sylvester smith no relation who

spk_0 impugned

spk_0 uh, Joseph for his behavior

spk_0 Uh during the march

spk_0 And there's also a lot of questions about the fact that the march did not uh, redeem zion and

spk_0 Joseph has now

spk_0 Uh, suggested that it's going to be

spk_0 Another two years until zion is redeemed in september of 1836

spk_0 So a lot of what uh, we're talking about today uh in this chapter is

spk_0 At least in a in a sense it's Joseph's

spk_0 Uh, steadying of ecclesiastical affairs

spk_0 uh in curtland

spk_0 after

spk_0 What at least on the face of it is a unsuccessful or even

spk_0 uh disastrous string of events in mazuri

spk_0 um

spk_0 Uncharacteristically for Joseph he stays in and around

spk_0 um curtlin for the next two and a half years

spk_0 He and emma finally have um a house of their own

spk_0 uh in curtland something they they hadn't had since they left harmony

spk_0 back in

spk_0 um

spk_0 1830 for the final time

spk_0 And Joseph has a lot of his close family and associates uh, living in his

spk_0 vicinity

spk_0 um, so one of it one of his goals is to really i think lean into that lean into those who are close to him

spk_0 find ways of

spk_0 um

spk_0 enhancing

spk_0 the church's cohesion and and unity um in northeastern ohio

spk_0 um i was surprised at that number two and a half years because like he still got saints

spk_0 who were struggling

spk_0 you know as almost refugees kicked out of Jackson county

spk_0 and yet he's gonna stay in curtland for a full two and a half years basically

spk_0 like how does he get away with all those refugees whose homes were burned, whose property was lost

spk_0 just it would almost seem like neglect but that's a that's a

spk_0 bias that i'm introducing only out of like curiosity

spk_0 but but does that even make sense that question of is that neglects to not visit those

spk_0 Missouri saints for two and a half years who were refugees?

spk_0 well i i i don't know whether it constitutes neglect or not i think just have doesn't return to

spk_0 Missouri until 1837 it's before the final collapse of things in curtland when things are beginning

spk_0 to unravel there he does undertake a trip to Missouri but you're right we might have expected him

spk_0 to visit the refugees in clay county which he he's been there briefly um in um

spk_0 June of 1834 on science camp but yeah he doesn't he doesn't go back his his energies

spk_0 and efforts they're focused on a ferrison curtland ultimately completing the curtland temple

spk_0 he's promised you know in in the revelation that ended the science camp expedition he's promised

spk_0 his elders an endowment of power and blessing in curtland and he suggested that Zion won't be

spk_0 redeemed for a couple additional years right okay that makes sense so the next we kind of

spk_0 introduce the idea of maybe a second genuine anti-mormon we covered uh in a prior episode um

spk_0 who uh falastis uh doctor falastis hurlbit right and so maybe this is the emergence of the second

spk_0 key anti-mormon of the first you know four or five years of the church do you want to talk about

spk_0 eber de how and give some background on him sure um yeah so eber de how is it's a fascinating

spk_0 character um he uh is bit older than Joseph he's been essentially a newspaper publisher

spk_0 uh first elsewhere and then in nearby panesville ohio um how is also an abolitionist um i think he plays

spk_0 some role in the underground railroad um in later years another interesting uh element to this

spk_0 story is that for how the issue of Mormonism is personal he has a wife uh a mother-in-law

spk_0 and a sister who belonged to the church in the in the book um i believe i have a minor error i say

spk_0 that how has two sisters in the church somebody pointed out to me it was just one sister uh thank you

spk_0 to careful readers out there um and so how understands uh Mormonism as a delusion um as something that is

spk_0 dangerous in that it induces people to commit their lives and money uh to a deception um

spk_0 house own wife contributed money to Zion's camp um not a ton of their money uh but um you know how

spk_0 how how it wants to knock uh Joseph Smith and Mormonism down uh to try to prevent

spk_0 um other americans from falling victim to what he sees as uh nonsense deception and fraud

spk_0 so the church that let's just have you talk about this term anti-mormon you probably know that

spk_0 that i'm i'm referred to in many parts in 2025 as an anti-mormon i think many of us who

spk_0 have expressed concerns about the church or even discuss i mean you could argue that there was a time

spk_0 where anyone who told spoke honest open history was labeled an anti-mormon so it certainly can be used

spk_0 by the church or by faithful members as a pejorative um as a way to dismiss or demean somebody

spk_0 but there's also probably truly people that are trying to destroy the church and sometimes

spk_0 in really unethical ways so do you have any just general framing commentary about the use of this

spk_0 term as a outside historian before we actually decide whether or not it fairly applies to

spk_0 ebrede how in this case that's a fun question um i've never really thought about it in those terms

spk_0 john so i do in the book refer to philastis hurlboot as um sort of the world's first professional

spk_0 anti-mormon in the sense of um people were funding his work so he sort of was a paid

spk_0 paid opponent of the church i you know i think there are you know almost from the start there are some

spk_0 opponents of jesus smith abner coal back in palmyra there are certainly people who

spk_0 apostatize from the church who leave the church and then become fierce opponents as her booth

spk_0 is certainly in that category and hurlboot has a brief period of church membership so he's

spk_0 sort of in that category as well i think then there are other you know and for how as i mentioned

spk_0 you know on some level this is personal as well because he has a number of family members involved

spk_0 there are other individuals during jesus smith's lifetime who i think you'd be fair to say

spk_0 are more outside observers who are simply alarmed at what they see they think jesus smith

spk_0 this is often i think a lot of hyperbole they they see jesus as a clear and present danger to the

spk_0 nation so you can find you know you can find publications along those lines i think all of that is to say

spk_0 um you know that that term anti-mormon probably during jesus smith's lifetime down to the present day

spk_0 probably encompasses a wide range of people with different goals and motivations right i think that

spk_0 i think that i think that'd be fair to say uh there are some people who are just implacable

spk_0 and forceful opponents of the church so you know for instance the anti-mormons on the ground in

spk_0 places like jackson county and later in hankot county i mean that they they are fierce

spk_0 you know fierce political and sometimes military opponents um then there are other people who

spk_0 you know critique the church like Alexander Campbell um and then there are people who you know have

spk_0 have personal concerns and and grudges against jesus smith so it's a it's a real spectrum

spk_0 yeah and i guess and i if i'm going to be introspective i could i could think of

spk_0 instances where i'm guilty of this too like i label can be used almost like dog whistling to get

spk_0 your side to dismiss uh someone else's position is not credible so an example is if if a critic of

spk_0 the church says well Richard bushman or toe give his there apologists right that could be viewed as a

spk_0 dog whistle saying you can't really believe or trust what they have to say right because it implies

spk_0 what they're they're faithful to the church or they're paid by the church uh in some way and so

spk_0 don't listen to them right the term anti-mormon can serve the same purpose to basically say you can't

spk_0 trust ed how right and mormon is mumbail because he's an anti-mormon and so i guess a better question is

spk_0 it you know do you view ed how uh calling balls and strikes as someone who is credible

spk_0 is basically a person of a credible reputation and or someone who has either legitimate concerns

spk_0 or legitimate critiques and or sincere motives when he is publishing things about the church

spk_0 hmm fun question i totally agree with what you're saying about um you know the dog whistle dismissal

spk_0 of people based on labels which i think is really unfortunate and that that is um you know that's a

spk_0 real issue within the field of uh mormon story excuse mormon stories mormon studies uh mormon history

spk_0 um there's this sense that people are in different camps so to speak ideological camps and if

spk_0 you're not in that camp well then you shouldn't trust the other camps um i think that's really unfortunate

spk_0 in terms of mormonism unveiled so it's actually a tricky question because this is not information

spk_0 that is coming from um ed how as an investigative journalist on his own so mormonism unveiled

spk_0 is a bit of a compendium so um it contains azure booths uh critical letters of the church

spk_0 it's much easier to find them there than to look them up in uh the local newspaper uh it has uh

spk_0 hurlboots affidavits from um some of joseph smiths former neighbors and associates uh those are

spk_0 valuable sources uh whether you know you you certainly can take um issue with people having

spk_0 access to grind but they're they're still valuable sources we'd be worse off if we didn't have them

spk_0 um i think how also publishes some of joseph's revelations this is before the publication of

spk_0 the 1835 doctrine and covenants um and then how has you know some of his own commentary

spk_0 and so some of this information is just more reliable and trustworthy than others so for instance

spk_0 we've talked about the solemn and spalding um hypothesis the hypothesis that a solemn and

spk_0 spalding novel was the source for the book of mormon that's in mormonism unveiled i don't think

spk_0 about joseph smith's activities in 1831 that's corroborated that's corroborated by the evidence

spk_0 basically at least some of it yeah yeah you know we talked about uh joseph's summer 1831

spk_0 trip to jaxon county well booth has some information about that um you know hurlboots affidavits

spk_0 you know we've talked about some of them before um i don't think they can be dismissed

spk_0 out of hand um so yeah so i guess in this case it's complicated because mormonism unveiled

spk_0 is a complicated book that that has a few different components to it okay yeah and so

spk_0 azirbooth sletters are useful because the first hand accounts of someone that had a bad experience

spk_0 on zians camp and wanted to share is that right not not science camp but the earlier trip in misery

spk_0 you're right exactly so it's it's so azirbooth travels with joseph smith doesn't have good experiences

spk_0 and wants to share that and its first hand and early so i mean that's what makes those credible right

spk_0 correct certainly sharing joseph smith's own revelations can't be viewed as anti-mormon right

spk_0 correct if anything is problematic if they change later then it shows revelations changing

spk_0 or if they don't come to pass then they show that joseph smith revelations don't come to pass so it

spk_0 could be viewed as problematic but it's not fair to dismiss them as anti-mormon correct correct

spk_0 and then the hurlbooth affidavits we've talked about that's mostly just uh doctor hurlboot

spk_0 interviewing a bunch of people who were neighbors and first hand witnesses of joseph and his

spk_0 families behavior in new yorkin eltsware um and that's just people's opinions there's probably

spk_0 accurate and inaccurate stuff there but we're certainly better off trying to piece together

spk_0 joseph's early life with the hurlbooth affidavits them without absolutely no totally that includes

spk_0 Solomon like um Lucy's dad his his experiences with joseph i be sorry

spk_0 Emma's dad correct and and i think Emma's dad's you know experiences with joseph specifically with

spk_0 the silver silver mine expedition that's all good stuff right correct now like i said i i think

spk_0 the way you put it is really good John we're much better off with those affidavits than not having

spk_0 their important pieces of evidence um i think that doesn't that doesn't mean we shouldn't question

spk_0 elements of them i think um i think Emma has a sister if i'm not mistaken who has a sort of just

spk_0 negative commentary about the death of their first child or something along those lines well

spk_0 you know there's there's an important significant rift right between Emma and her family

spk_0 because of her marriage to joseph and you know subsequent move away um and so we would expect that to

spk_0 color um those affidavits but the recognizing where a source is coming from and evaluating it

spk_0 accordingly that doesn't mean just dismissing it okay yeah yeah so overall um i think you'd

spk_0 probably agree that ed house morninism unveiled provides important information for people trying to

spk_0 piece together joseph's early life correct absolutely and and it would be a disservice to dismiss it

spk_0 and ignore it as anti-mormon drivel correct i think that's i think that's fair uh dan vogel

spk_0 published a annotated uh edition of morninism unveiled a few years ago if i'm remembering correctly so

spk_0 you can you know if listeners are interested they can find you know a pdf of the original

spk_0 very easily on google books or they could check out uh dan's edited volume okay and then you you

spk_0 you talked about if you had to assess ed house motives which is always hard to do but do you think

spk_0 by by what you understand about him and what his concerns were and uh you know what he did

spk_0 well did he have reasonable or credible concerns that he was or was he just a hater do you know what i'm saying

spk_0 yeah so i you know my own sense and i only know so much about eber de how but my own sense is he's

spk_0 a bit like um apner coal in palmyra he's a religious skeptic and free thinker uh he dislikes um

spk_0 what he sees as fraud and spiritual access um i don't know the extent to which his family members

spk_0 um association with the church colored his thinking i do also think you know there is still

spk_0 you know i understand why um church members at the time and since you know they certainly are not

spk_0 gonna appreciate uh the work of eber de how i do think there's a difference between his approach

spk_0 and what the church's opponents in mizuri and later in hankock county took um you know how did express

spk_0 sympathy for the victims of the mobs uh in mizuri um you know he took note of the violence

spk_0 and expulsions uh that they had suffered i think he didn't want to inflame um you know that level of

spk_0 activity against the church i think he hoped to simply be able to show in print that more

spk_0 monism was nonsensical um and to warn other people um against it now he didn't ultimately really

spk_0 succeed in that respect um you know the church the church continued to grow um but it was uh

spk_0 it was nevertheless an influential critique right yeah i mean it i just in in an observation today

spk_0 i think i think many of us could probably agree that for example

spk_0 Scientology or Jova's witnesses have some practices that are problematic legally or otherwise

spk_0 and we're grateful for people that kind of either whistleblowers to that effect or who speak up

spk_0 publicly and say you know these types of practices are fine religious you know protection faith whatever

spk_0 but these other practices seem to be harmful um and so i so i guess i just like i'm sad when people

spk_0 get dismissed unfairly and i i also want to just kind of acknowledge that just like journalism

spk_0 historically in the united states can play an important role in holding the government to account

spk_0 i think journalists and even whistleblowers can play an important role in holding churches and

spk_0 especially early religions or early religious movements accountable for behavior that's either

spk_0 fraudulent or harmful or deceptive and in that sense i guess i want to have us be a little bit more

spk_0 thoughtful about you know dismissing people with labels like uh anti-mormon you know yeah now i

spk_0 think that's i think that's totally fair um i agree with what you say about um journalism

spk_0 you know more more broadly i you know and i you know in contemporary terms i i both admire

spk_0 well i love religion journalists generally you know some of the best in the country live in Utah

spk_0 so uh you all are lucky uh but i admire both journalists who help outsiders understand

spk_0 what makes a movement tick who can really um explain something um that helps outsiders make sense

spk_0 of religious experience and i also agree um you know i also love investigative journalism that

spk_0 takes a critical look at um religious institutions both the the small and the large ones uh so

spk_0 i couldn't agree more okay all right cool so uh how how damaging was ed house book more

spk_0 than one failed to the church during that curland time period and maybe more importantly

spk_0 how much on how much did he get under Joseph Smith's skin and uh the skin of early church members

spk_0 in curland yeah so that's a great question um i think i'm actually not exactly sure how how

spk_0 alarmed uh Joseph was i'd say longer term this is significant um you know simply for

spk_0 the spulding theory that hurlbutt and eberdee how put into circulation down to the present day

spk_0 you know that remains uh influential i happen to think it's not correct uh but certainly influential

spk_0 i do think um that uh more monism unveiled did reinforce uh Joseph sense that he and the church

spk_0 needed to do more to control um their own narrative so i don't think it's a coincidence i mean

spk_0 there already been plans in place partly because of uh prior critics but you know

spk_0 Joseph in 1834 1835 moves ahead with plans to publish uh the doctrine and covenants and early or

spk_0 attempt to publish a book of commandments um ultimately was disrupted um and destroyed by

spk_0 that it's urgent to get this volume into print uh because the church was spoken

spk_0 was evil spoken of in many places uh you can see that in some of Joseph's other writings in the

spk_0 1830s there's a concern about what other people are saying about the church and a perceived need

spk_0 to get his own message out there yeah i i've um just like i'm realizing that and we're going to

spk_0 talk about this in this chapter how Joseph's miss failed revelations did not seem to harm him overall

spk_0 in fact he always seemed to emerge stronger after failed revelations it almost seems like the role

spk_0 of the critic of Mormonism in specific and maybe even cults or religious groups larger is

spk_0 it ends up strengthening them because number one they end up making changes to act better or more

spk_0 ethically and they just become more resilient strong over time realizing that they can withstand

spk_0 difficult things so i mean i think it's worth it's worth thinking a bit about whether critics really

spk_0 do harm Mormonism specifically or culture religions generally or whether they just end up

spk_0 strengthening them by helping them improve does that make sense make sense such a huge question

spk_0 i'm sure it's really particular i think i mean i i'm sure i i would feel confident that in the case

spk_0 of Mormonism over the course of the 19th century i mean nobody likes any kind of persecution right

spk_0 whether verbal criticism or on the ground persecution um i do think a strong sense of

spk_0 having critics and opponents i do definitely think that it furthered on some level church

spk_0 unity and cohesion in in the sense of a common identity as a persecuted people i do think that

spk_0 was significant yeah so we talked about the book of commandments um you know being printed in

spk_0 Missouri or at least attempted to be printed but then that printing press what was destroyed

spk_0 are there there are are there complete um versions or manuscripts of the book of commandments

spk_0 as it was originally printed do you know i i think so john i but i'm not positive if they are

spk_0 complete or mostly complete i'll have to check okay um oh i do have one side question uh going

spk_0 back to um the solemn and spawning theory and i think we've touched on this previously but

spk_0 when i i i thought when edie how puts forth the solemn and spawning manuscript it's it's sort of

spk_0 done under the assumption that the book of Mormon tell me if i'm wrong that the book of Mormon

spk_0 is so amazing that joseph couldn't have written it so we've got to figure out who wrote it

spk_0 and in that way it's almost a compliment to the book of Mormon and almost bolsters the claim that

spk_0 it's a magical miraculous book if i am i on to something there a little bit and if we maybe we've

spk_0 talked about that in previous episodes this is the way i this is an irony that i sometimes point at

spk_0 and i think how is in this would be in this category and i have to i'd have to go back and look

spk_0 in general uh like a lot of other critics of the book of Mormon i think his conclusion is this is

spk_0 pretty wretched but joseph smith was still not up to it in the sense of joseph smith is even more

spk_0 wretched than this wretchedness and so we've got to have uh sort of a source for it

spk_0 yeah okay well he your book mentions that um ed how wasn't just worried about you know people's

spk_0 wives or children being sucked in he makes the argument that that Mormonism is is a threat to all

spk_0 Americans um that's kind of a real i mean some could say that's overblown or paranoid and you

spk_0 basically write that he was concerned that they're going to recruit the Indians sees power first

spk_0 in Jackson County and then Kurtland and and he makes it sound like joseph smith has the power

spk_0 ability to kind of take over the whole united states i mean is that just ridiculous that a charlatan

spk_0 and a fraud uh you know by his by his estimation could slowly gain a following uh that would that

spk_0 would at first take over counties and then states and then the entire country do you think that was

spk_0 that was reasonable or do you think that was overblown i think it's totally overblown i think i think

spk_0 it you know and look at how's language you know we're going to have Pope joseph the first i think

spk_0 there is you know a lot of americans make this this connection that joseph smith

spk_0 um this you know with this single individual at the top of this church hierarchy it's

spk_0 max of Catholicism and popery um and one of the complaints that americans commonly raise about

spk_0 Catholicism is that the Vatican doesn't accept the separation of church and state and so joseph

spk_0 as sort of a Catholic style hierarchy um is dangerous now sure if joseph's church was going to have

spk_0 10 million members by 1840 that would have been a reasonable concern but we're talking about a

spk_0 church that you know maybe by this point numbers a few thousand so the idea

spk_0 that they're on the verge of recruiting the indians and taking over the country is is just crazy

spk_0 um how's not the last one to you know a lot of people raised that alarm um in the early 1840s as well

spk_0 um you know Protestants really objected this idea of of ongoing and immediate revelation

spk_0 yeah i was gonna ask you about that yeah well it tells what that means

spk_0 immediate revelations because that's what of another one of edie house criticisms of joseph

spk_0 yeah i mean so when i see that i see echoes of the complaints that

spk_0 Massachusetts Bay authorities raised against and Hutchinson back in the 1630s that

spk_0 because she claimed to hear it directly from god that was a threat to the existing order because

spk_0 you know what can you say against a revelation from god except i don't accept it but if

spk_0 if that's a possibility then that individual has a higher authority than any other authority

spk_0 um and so it's not surprising that now how is not a traditional Protestant but just that

spk_0 that idea that somebody is claiming immediate authority from god um i think that's just

spk_0 something that other other americans find ominous um and dangerous yeah i mean if the church likes to

spk_0 say when they're wanting to tout joseph's abilities that he grew navu to be a rival of the city of

spk_0 Chicago you know at the peak of navu's power um and so i think it's i think it's i think one

spk_0 could then extrapolate well if in a very short amount of time joseph was able to grow a following

spk_0 and a city that rivaled Chicago in its day give them 20 more years and a lot could happen especially

spk_0 if growth can become exponential right sure well but i think you could say that about almost

spk_0 any fludging religious movement because by their very definition successful fludging movements

spk_0 are growing at a really rapid rate right right now i am going to say i've been i've been pretty

spk_0 dismissive of it because i do think um it's overblown and you know even if we're talking about

spk_0 navu rivaling Chicago i mean Chicago is not that big in the early to mid 1840 so it's not you know

spk_0 it's not like rivaling Boston or New York City now what i would say however is you know this this

spk_0 remains um you know moremanism becomes a real salient political issue in the united states

spk_0 really from the you know around 1850 uh through the early 1900s uh because you do have the

spk_0 establishment of a theocratic kingdom in the great basin that you know doesn't accept the

spk_0 authority of the nation or at least the you know the system of territorial and national

spk_0 um sovereignty um but even granting that um you know in 1834 you know we're not on the verge of

spk_0 Pope Joseph the first taking over the country yeah yeah okay um all right well uh i seem to remember

spk_0 Grant Palmer or maybe no maybe Michael Quinn saying that at some point Joseph commits trees and maybe

spk_0 it was with the council of 50 because there was some sort of conspiracy to team with the Indians

spk_0 and literally start taking over large amounts of territories in the west i don't know if you're

spk_0 you're familiar with that sort of idea that Joseph actually communicated an intent to team with

spk_0 Indians to commit trees in against the united states so this seems to be an early indication of

spk_0 what maybe i mean there are definitely prophecies that in some way are along those lines i think that

spk_0 the talk of trees in when people raise it against Joseph um it does tend to relate to the council

spk_0 of 50 and Joseph being um the people's prophet priest and king um but we'd better talk about that

spk_0 when we get to 1844 okay all right okay um so let's go ahead and talk about DNC uh doctor and

spk_0 covenants 1835 edition and uh i this blew my mind so go ahead and set it up and then i'll i'll

spk_0 tell you what was weird about it for me okay well if you know if listeners are not familiar with the

spk_0 early uh doctorate and covenants um the the name is uh purposeful in the sense of the covenants are

spk_0 Joseph's uh revelations um there are about a hundred in the 1835 edition the the doctrine

spk_0 is seven lectures um that stem from uh classes for the elders in kirtland in the winter of 1834

spk_0 1835 um we actually don't know a great deal about the provenance of the material uh sygney rigdon

spk_0 was probably the primary teacher at that elder school Joseph sometimes taught um as well um so

spk_0 so i think most historians have presumed that sygney rigdon is the principal author of these lectures

spk_0 on faith which and i don't think i get into this in the book but they were eventually sort of

spk_0 decanonized um i think in the early 20th century okay the the thing that kind of blew me away is

spk_0 a mormon in the 21st century later i say in the 20th century is going to think of doctrine and covenants

spk_0 as just 130 whatever sections of doctrine and covenants and pronouncements of Joseph Smith

spk_0 but we are never taught uh that i recall that that the original term meant

spk_0 basically as i understand your book the lectures on faith which was the doctrine correct

spk_0 and then the covenants which was a Joseph Smith's other revelations and were also not generally taught

spk_0 that you know which i remember hearing about the lectures on faith and being told how they're

spk_0 kind of interesting but they're not that important they're not like they're not at the level of

spk_0 canonization or scripture so so you hear about the lectures on faith you don't ever learn

spk_0 in mainstream Mormonism that the the lectures on faith were at once included in the doctrine

spk_0 and covenants they were canonized that the doctrine from the word doctrine and covenants

spk_0 was was specifically referencing the lectures on faith and then at some point that stuff that

spk_0 had been canonized in the scriptures meaning the lectures of faith lectures on faith were then

spk_0 removed and but the name remained doctrine and covenants like that's all stuff that my Mormon

spk_0 brain is like whoa i didn't really realize any of this right yeah well i if 45 years as a faithful

spk_0 Mormon you know i mean i guess at a certain point it it wouldn't have made sense to change the name

spk_0 then you just have you know book of Mormon uh covenants and pearl of great price right yeah so

spk_0 but do remind us why the lectures on faith were removed i know we'll probably talk about that later

spk_0 but since we're talking about it now why were they ever removed from the doctrine and covenants

spk_0 especially when there's no more official pronouncement of something as doctrine if it's like

spk_0 canonized and then the actual book includes a name referencing to that part which is canonized i

spk_0 can't think of a more officially canonized thing than the lectures on faith right uh someone i'm sure

spk_0 we could get in into the show notes somebody wrote a good essay on this as a case study in decanonization

spk_0 um i can't no it's it's an interesting subject right i mean something you know people you

spk_0 you know a church or a community can essentially make certain texts scripture but they can also

spk_0 decanonize them and then they lose authority so i don't remember the details of the discussions in the

spk_0 early 20th century i do think um part of the issue is there are things in the lectures of faith that

spk_0 clash with um some of Joseph's later theological developments so for instance

spk_0 um one of the lectures speaks you know essentially discusses the godhead and speaks of the father

spk_0 as god the father as a personage of spirit um and you know Joseph later taught that god the father

spk_0 has a body of flesh and bone and exalted body as a former human basically exactly um and

spk_0 the lectures of faith you know from my reading and i'm sure people could parse this in some

spk_0 different ways um i think i think it's something at least more akin to standard trinitarianism

spk_0 you know the sun um is a personage of tabernacle so has a body who possesses the same mind with the

spk_0 father um so you know Joseph Smith's thought continued to to evolve and so uh the lectures on

spk_0 faith um in a way if they remain part of the Mormon canon at the very least you can understand

spk_0 how that would have been confusing for for church members yeah yeah and so yeah and then that's

spk_0 the theory i've heard as well that because Joseph's beliefs about the godhead change

spk_0 the lectures on faith represented his earlier position which would be consistent with his 1832

spk_0 first vision account and with the book of Mormon that once he's evolved he changes the book of

spk_0 Mormon to reflect his evolving view of the godhead he changes this first vision account to uh

spk_0 be updated according to his changing view of the godhead he's got to get rid or decanonize

spk_0 lectures on faith as a way to really clean up shop as it relates to his evolving view of the godhead

spk_0 well i don't think he does but later church leaders do uh yeah and another change and i don't

spk_0 i at least don't talk about it in this chapter is there is an article on marriage that is published

spk_0 with the lectures on faith in 1835 and it declares that one man should have one wife and one woman

spk_0 but one husband except in the case of death now there's been a lot of discussion about that article

spk_0 that because it was i think approved while Joseph um uh was absent that maybe it didn't reflect his

spk_0 teaching um at the time um but it's also worth noting that prior to the general decanonization

spk_0 of the lectures on faith that article on marriage was removed um and doctrine and covenant section

spk_0 what's now 132 was was added right so the 1835 version of the DNC has a section 101 which basically

spk_0 condemns polygamy and denies its practice correct i can't remember if it's 101 but i'll there's

spk_0 an article in it um and it basically says that it's it's it's a couple of paragraphs and it lays out

spk_0 i think some procedures for marriages within the church and then it also says that in as much as the

spk_0 church of christ has been reproached with the sin of fornication and polygamy we want to declare

spk_0 you know we we practice monogamy yeah okay and just for those who are like to geek out on this stuff

spk_0 uh yeah i just made sure the lectures on faith were officially removed from the DNC in 1921

spk_0 so they stood for almost a century as canonized scripture removed in 1921

spk_0 there is an article that julie is going to link to in dialogue called the lectures on faith

spk_0 a case study in decanonization i think that Mormons and critics of Mormonism probably haven't made

spk_0 enough um of the idea that on the one hand Mormons consider scripture to be sacred and of god

spk_0 you know Mormons consider and religious people consider scripture to be authoritative

spk_0 and then large chunks of the scripture can just be decanonized and then more miraculously of all

spk_0 the everyone can forget about it within one or two generations and never remember

spk_0 that the scripture was even there in the first first place let alone know that scripture

spk_0 can be decanonized but it it does i guess technically it does take some of the shine off of

spk_0 the the sacredness of the inviolability of scripture to know that huge chunks can be decanonized

spk_0 right so two things i'd say in relation to that is despite the decanonization

spk_0 at least some church leaders continued to quote from and to value the lectures on faith i think

spk_0 i can't think of particular examples but there is a quote uh from the lectures on faith about

spk_0 something like a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things um doesn't

spk_0 you know doesn't quite capture the the power of religion or or something like that um i think

spk_0 you can find examples of church leaders quoting that in recent decades so it doesn't totally

spk_0 lose its influence then the second thing i'd say is that um

spk_0 yeah this it might seem strange to have scripture revised or even decanonized or i would say from a

spk_0 Protestant or Catholic perspective added to right that in and of itself is unusual if you're

spk_0 from my tribe but i think for Joseph Smith the idea that everything was subject to revision um that

spk_0 was more of a feature than a bug oh yeah yeah why well it allowed for new directions it allowed for

spk_0 responses to changing circumstances um you could say from a faithful perspective it allowed for

spk_0 ongoing revelation and new understanding yeah so a couple uh july is doing a lot of the fact

spk_0 checking here it was indeed section 101 that was the the early um section on marriage so uh she'll

spk_0 include that in the show notes she's also saying lecture six i guess in the lectures on faith had

spk_0 that quote about a religion that doesn't require the sacrifice of all things not having the power

spk_0 sufficient to uh you know save um it like if somebody wanted to say

spk_0 Mormonism is the true because big chunks of its canonized scripture were decanonized could somebody

spk_0 make a similar claim about the older New Testament um like i i could say can you imagine the

spk_0 you know Christianity saying we're taking song of Solomon out of the Old Testament or we're taking

spk_0 revelations out of the New Testament because it's taught cause too many problems i would think that

spk_0 would just cause mass defections and or riots but then i don't maybe in the past two thousand years

spk_0 the bible underwent similar additions and subtractions especially when i think about Bart Irman and

spk_0 and um Dan McLell and others i'm sure the bible had its own period of volatility in that regard

spk_0 true not true yeah i mean well i mean one um maybe somewhat put in an example is

spk_0 Protestant Christians um whittling down the Old Testament and removing books that they

spk_0 um did not believe were originally written in Hebrew or including them instead as an apocrypha

spk_0 i mean that's another example of decanonization um and in a way it's a decent parallel because

spk_0 some of those texts remained beloved and read for a while even even if they were sort of demoted

spk_0 don't Catholic Bibles include apocrypha i don't know if that's the adjective apocrypha writings

spk_0 that Protestant Bible's down correct because those were in early Greek translations

spk_0 um of the Hebrew scriptures got it okay uh the next part of your book that i think is really

spk_0 interesting it it goes on in the top of page 154 to say that all of this stuff and i i think we

spk_0 could say ed house Mormonism unveiled these criticisms about instant revelation immediate revelations

spk_0 um you know a lot of his critics um and then all this stuff with i don't know

spk_0 it basically you make the claim that Joseph's pace of producing revelations slow do you want

spk_0 to tell us more about that sure it's a great great question yeah so in the early 1830s

spk_0 there are stretches of time in which Joseph is just bringing out a torrent of revelations you can

spk_0 you can find months in which there are six revelations there are a number of really long

spk_0 theologically rich uh messages on priesthood or on um the three kingdoms of glory so

spk_0 things change in the mid 1830s uh we don't know exactly why but that pace of revelation

spk_0 slows to a trickle now you can yeah you can find some revelations uh going forward but just never

spk_0 again the torrent and flood of divine words that Joseph brought forth in the early 1830s um we don't

spk_0 know why i i lay out a couple of possibilities perhaps after the Jackson County debacle

spk_0 Joseph had lost a measure of revelatory confidence you know that's a possibility

spk_0 or perhaps he thought change circumstances required new methods or maybe after publishing

spk_0 the doctrine and covenants Joseph was a little bit more wary about um dictating large numbers

spk_0 of new revelations um and if you don't mind john i'll just read my conclusion to that section because

spk_0 i kind of like it yeah yeah it's good stuff regardless the development points to a reason for

spk_0 Joseph's resilience and success he wasn't a one trick profit he set aside his searstone he dictated

spk_0 fewer revelations but improved his rhetoric Joseph was a constant innovator

spk_0 yeah but you also so yes so there's a there's a there's kind of a bad and a good there in some degree

spk_0 you're basically saying maybe he's realizing that putting things to word putting things to revelation

spk_0 can get him into trouble so it you know and and want to talk about slowing to a trickle

spk_0 let's talk about how many DNC sections have been added since Joseph died very very few almost none

spk_0 and you could argue that maybe the maybe god just doesn't have anything more to say to his people

spk_0 because that seemed to be the value proposition of Mormonism is that god wants to speak to his people

spk_0 again through prophets um so you could say gods that's god that's all gods god for us

spk_0 so once Joseph died there's pretty much not much else or you could say that

spk_0 subsequent church leaders of the Mormon church learned from Joseph to realize that you put

spk_0 something in writing it could be wrong and then you could be held accountable maybe better not to

spk_0 put things in writing anymore so I I do want to I do want to pivot to Joseph's resilient

spk_0 innovation but let's not maybe totally lose sight of the fact that it's problematic to put

spk_0 revelations in print right it's fair enough but really would Latter-day Saints want to have a you

spk_0 this thick doctrine and covenants with 600 revelations to study that would be rough so

spk_0 I think there are some that would I think there are some like Denver Snuffer I don't know do you know

spk_0 about Denver Stuffer who we talked about him before he's produces oh dr. Nick Covenants and he's

spk_0 up to over well you know I don't know how many he's up to but community of Christ yeah they

spk_0 continue the tradition of adding sections to their doctrine and covenants and it included

spk_0 things like being more expansive with LGBT people and other types of things giving women the priesthood

spk_0 giving people of color the priesthood so I mean I guess there's trade-offs there right I mean

spk_0 the LDS church could decide to introduce at least a John Taylor insert

spk_0 what about Brigham Young yeah well you know he you know I actually think one of uh

spk_0 uh Brigham's uh genius moves in terms of establishing his own leadership was not trying to

spk_0 completely imitate an ape Joseph Smith and there's this scene I like uh I think it's I think it's

spk_0 1847 might have been the previous year where they're they're heading they're heading west things aren't

spk_0 going well and Brigham starts writing the word in the will of the Lord and I don't know I kind of

spk_0 think he gets a headache after a while like it's not easy being a revelator and he eventually just

spk_0 sets it aside and he basically decides to let his words be scripture and authoritative his spoken

spk_0 words be scripture and authoritative for the people and you know I think I think there were a lot

spk_0 of church members who were hungering for new written revelations they basically got that one

spk_0 from Brigham about the organization of the Exodus um you know I think I think they're there were

spk_0 different ways to be a prophet and I think I was actually pretty smart on Brigham's part to try

spk_0 to do it his own way yeah why didn't tell us for those who don't know how to connect the dots

spk_0 what was your joke about the John Taylor insert just so that we don't miss what you were saying there

spk_0 uh sorry for the cryptic humor so um you know there there are some revelations from John Taylor

spk_0 including one um oh right the the the polygamy right well yeah and one in particular um

spk_0 there have been a lot of arguments about its providence and whether or not it was you know

spk_0 legitimately from uh John Taylor and uh the church uh released it the church history library

spk_0 released it on its website uh earlier this summer um so the church is now acknowledging um

spk_0 right you know its providence yeah and then weirdly with with with Woodruff issue those declarations

spk_0 but they weren't actually turned into sections of the DNC they were just made official declarations

spk_0 right maybe the heavens closed back up I don't know I guess we'll have to see the church could

spk_0 always turn back to uh adding more sections of the future okay so yes Joseph is in an innovator so

spk_0 it's it's it's it's not like he just walked away with his tail between his legs and said okay

spk_0 I'm no longer a propiter and revelator he just kind of pivots and um and that's where this

spk_0 this chapter really really progresses so let's talk about the types of things he did in

spk_0 Kirtland to uh to strengthen the church I think it's fascinating yeah so you know one one thing

spk_0 he does and these two things are connected really is he um proceeds with a series of

spk_0 ordinations and blessings um so the church hierarchy is always confusing uh during these years uh

spk_0 Joseph had been ordained as president of the high priesthood back in 1832 originally signy

spk_0 rickton and jesse gouse were his counselors gouse apostatized Joseph chose Frederick G Williams

spk_0 as his replacement uh but what he does now is he makes Oliver Cowdry and assistant president

spk_0 and also adds just Smith senior his father and his brother Hiram Smith as assistant uh presidents

spk_0 um probably the most significant part of that is really clarifying that Oliver Cowdry is very

spk_0 much back uh in good graces and remains um a valuable associate um and then subsequently

spk_0 uh Joseph bestos a series of ordinations and blessings primarily on uh men who have who had

spk_0 accompanied him on the march to uh Zion so we concluded we concluded with the failure of Zion's camp

spk_0 him sort of making that promise that they would receive some big blessings you know as a result

spk_0 of the failure basically exactly and Joseph Joseph makes good on that uh starting in february of 1835

spk_0 and you know he is very explicit he tells them you know their sacrifices were not in vain they had proven

spk_0 themselves they had shown that they were willing to lay down their lives uh for his friends um he's

spk_0 ready to proceed with the ordination of 12 men as apostles um 11 out of 12 of them uh were either

spk_0 members of Zion's camp or had already been in Missouri um at the time and you know with Joseph it's

spk_0 simply a question of you know selecting men and then doing a sort of wrote business like

spk_0 ordination um there are rich blessings um on the chosen apostles their predictions that they will

spk_0 be working miracles uh that they will live until the return of Christ uh that they will be mighty

spk_0 witnesses for Christ I think there's a vision for instance of Brigham Young standing somewhere in the

spk_0 American West preaching to the to the natives and then it's not just the apostles Joseph also selects

spk_0 an additional 70 followers uh who are blessed and ordained as members of the 70 takes two days to go

spk_0 through all of the blessings um and you know Joseph is not chinsy with blessing you know even some

spk_0 men like Sylvester Smith um they you know who have had some been at odds with him in the past they

spk_0 are rewarded for their past uh faithful service um you know if you put all of this together I see this

spk_0 as indicative of Joseph's talent as an ecclesiastical leader you know that after

spk_0 after that really I would describe it as a disaster in Jackson County and after this unsuccessful

spk_0 march he finds you know both theology and ritual that respond to those difficulties

spk_0 and respond to them in a way that stitches these people more closely to each other and to him

spk_0 yeah and um is I was trying to think about this uh and I want to talk a little bit more about the

spk_0 blessings but um you know some people like to reduce you know let's just say new religious movements

spk_0 uh uh uh to the accumulation of obsex money and power right and I know that that's a

spk_0 debase to meaning way to think about things but you've got different ways to motivate people

spk_0 you can help them make money right you can give them power you can give them fame you can increase

spk_0 their reputation right um and and sometimes religious leaders dole out sexual favors

spk_0 uh you know warne jeffs could be an example maybe Joseph Smith Naboo could be an example of that

spk_0 but it looks like clearly and I think we've referenced this in past episodes

spk_0 and I and I wondered about this it almost feels like the the doctrine of hell

spk_0 and or the doctrine of salvation must create this either you could call it a false scarcity or you

spk_0 call it a genuine fear or concern that people are going to end up in a bad place or um not be with

spk_0 their family not be with their loved ones or they're going to get to go to the good place where

spk_0 they're with God or Jesus this idea of your fate in the afterlife is a real carrot that that

spk_0 rivals sex money and power as a motivator to reward and motivate people because if you want to

spk_0 just reduce people's behavior to like you know pellets sit up in a skinner box you know what I mean

spk_0 uh the bell and Pavlov Pavlov's dog what what what incentives what reinforcers do you have to

spk_0 get the behavior you want it seems like this promises of of good things in the afterlife or fear of

spk_0 bad things in the afterlife is as compelling to people as as things like sex money and power

spk_0 and or status or influence yeah well the other thing I would I mean that is operative um as a

spk_0 motivation for early church members and contemporary church members no doubt I think the other

spk_0 thing that you can see um strongly in these post science camp blessings is Joseph in addition to

spk_0 addressing the anxieties that people have about the afterlife and their families he also excels

spk_0 at giving large numbers of people a vital place in this story that he is unfolding so I think

spk_0 the 70s a good example of that right there these there these 12 really important people these

spk_0 foretold apostles and they're going to be this traveling high council okay well

spk_0 and we all know Jesus had 12 disciples so it's like basically really really important but okay

spk_0 maybe you don't maybe you don't make it into the 12 right yeah well don't worry um there's 70

spk_0 and even Sylvester Smith who Joseph must not like right um and somebody you'd rather throw a

spk_0 French horn at you know he can this is the one complaining about Joseph's dog in the previous episode

spk_0 right yeah you know he learns he will preach two kings and have power over great men that's part of

spk_0 his blessing did you know if you ever did that did that ever come to pass I don't think so okay keep

spk_0 going keep going um and then okay if you're not chosen as one of the 70 you know Joseph makes a point

spk_0 that of giving a Zion blessing Ben Park as a as a essay on this I think um either he Joseph

spk_0 senior or other high-ranking ranking church leaders you at least get a blessing um and I just see

spk_0 this as a way of Joseph just of stitching these people more more deeply into into his story and

spk_0 honestly that's been now that there's you know there's probably there's a downside that we could talk

spk_0 about in terms of this as well but the LDS church is always I think excelled and well there is a

spk_0 calling for everybody right everybody has something really important to do um and not all religious

spk_0 movements do that um so well and that's that's a feature of the modern LDS church everybody has a

spk_0 calling whether it's librarian ward librarian Boy Scout leader I mean that's no longer a thing but

spk_0 chorister you know greeter like that that's a smart thing to do to make everybody feel like

spk_0 they're a part of it they have a job to do they have a role um and even leadership to aspire to maybe

spk_0 all that is actually probably part of the Mormon Church's success or genius that's rooted in I

spk_0 will fill in questions some of these blessings or prophecies didn't come true and you list a few

spk_0 examples do you want to talk about that just for fun not that it's condemnatory or anything

spk_0 sure well do you mind if I back up and just say a little bit about the development of patriarchal

spk_0 blessings yeah yeah yeah with Joseph senior because it pertains so um there's been some uncertainty

spk_0 among historians about when uh Joseph Smith seniors ordained as church patriarch uh

spk_0 coutury I think at one point dated it to 1833 but most historians from the Joseph Smith

spk_0 papers to Mike Markourt who's done a lot of work on the subject um and there's a great good book

spk_0 on the subject as well authors names are escaping me but maybe we can get it in the show notes

spk_0 it's probably December of 1834 um and there's a there's a fascinating I think a fascinating

spk_0 feast or gathering a few days after Joseph senior's ordination as patriarch and the

spk_0 ordination of him and other men as assistant church um uh presidents um Joseph uh Joseph's parents

spk_0 siblings and their families come to his house for a feast and Joseph senior blesses each um of his

spk_0 children and their spouses um in turn and you know I think this is you know this is this is

spk_0 modeled on precedent in both the bible um and um the book of Mormon in terms of you know Jacob

spk_0 blessing his sons Lee Hyde blessing his sons um and that seems to set the precedent for other

spk_0 church members than seeking out Joseph senior and receiving uh blessings from him um this seems to

spk_0 have been particularly significant for church members who did not have parents in the church

spk_0 who regarded themselves as sort of spiritual orphans but many other church members uh simply

spk_0 sought him out um Mike Marquard published a collection of these early patriarchal blessings

spk_0 uh a number of years ago it's a fabulous source um oh a lot of them you know the the blessings are

spk_0 are pretty wild um you know individuals will live until the return of Jesus Christ they will

spk_0 work miracles and I think I think there's some crazy promises I think there's some that promise

spk_0 that individuals will be able to fly I have to double check that I hope I'm not making it up um

spk_0 then I also just I like the sort of rough and ready nature of some of these early patriarchal

spk_0 blessings um they you know it wasn't one size fits all um Joseph senior

spk_0 once told a 61 year old church member that because she was already so aged she wouldn't

spk_0 uh remain alive until the second coming she would soon go down to the grave that's kind of

spk_0 somber um William Phelps who was a bit of a bit of an oddball and and free thinker

spk_0 um Joseph senior tells him you are a strange man and he added that he was a speckled bird

spk_0 and prone to arrogance but he he was promised that he would live until he met uh his redeemer

spk_0 on the earth um I think it's really fun reading through those those early blessings I think church

spk_0 members treasured them and then John I'll engage your question of course a lot of these promises

spk_0 didn't come true right um people weren't always working um all of the miracles promised

spk_0 none of them lived until Christ's return uh some missions were more successful

spk_0 um than others I think nevertheless I don't think most you know I'm sure maybe you could find

spk_0 accounts of church members looking back and saying well this didn't happen I feel I feel misled

spk_0 but I think for the most part uh church members treasured the blessing um sometimes for the

spk_0 particular promises but also for the more general sense of assurance and comfort amid setbacks and

spk_0 hardships they were promised that they had a glorious lineage that they had a future in Christ

spk_0 millennial reign they had a place in Christ's church um I think you know I think as far as many

spk_0 church members were concerned also um a lot of what the Joseph's Joseph Jr and Joseph

spk_0 senior a lot of what they promised did seem to be coming true um you know if they lived in

spk_0 Portland they could see the house of the Lord under construction they could certainly envision

spk_0 uh the 12 and the 70 taking the gospel uh to distant lands so you know Joseph and his followers

spk_0 they did make good on some of these promises yeah and and there have been patriarchal blessing

spk_0 analyses done in modern times uh lots of people have lots of modern Mormons have gotten patriarchal

spk_0 blessings with promises that haven't since uh come true or they died without them coming true

spk_0 and like as an old in modern times Mormons are are pretty agile at being able to just

spk_0 reinterpret what the words mean uh or maybe even assign blame to the unworthiness of the

spk_0 recipients of the blessings but clearly faithful Latter-day Saints value the fact that blessings are

spk_0 given much more than they value that the promises in the blessings actually come true

spk_0 and so critics probably are missing the boat when they like think that an unfulfilled promise in a

spk_0 patriarchal blessing somehow means something fatal to the church's credibility because in the

spk_0 eyes of the members it's a nice two but it's not a has to does that make sense?

spk_0 No that does make sense um and i don't i don't know as much about contemporary patriarchal blessings

spk_0 uh there's a joke that thousands of Mormons have been promised that they'll be one of the two

spk_0 prophets to be killed in the streets of Jerusalem at the second coming and they've all died you

spk_0 know what i mean? Right right right yeah i mean i i do think also you know especially in the 1830s

spk_0 i mean you know i mean for for Joseph this was an intensely biblical practice he started

spk_0 you know he was blessing people before his father was ordained as patriarch

spk_0 i think you know that especially that feast in which uh Joseph Sr.

spk_0 blesses the member of his family that seems like a very tender moment and i think there was a

spk_0 tenderness and sacredness uh for many of the for many individuals when they receive these blessings

spk_0 i'm sure that is still the case uh for for many church members um and i think again it speaks to

spk_0 Joseph's talent as a what i would i would say is a as a innovator in terms of ritual

spk_0 and you know we talked about this before um you know in that earlier stretch of time when there

spk_0 was disunity between Joseph and Missouri church leaders and there's this olive leaf and this

spk_0 school of the prophets Joseph introduces this ritual of footwashing it's very powerful it brings people

spk_0 together i think again here in the wake of science camp some criticism and fall out these

spk_0 rituals of of blessing and i don't know if uh Mormons would think about these as a ritual but

spk_0 i think i think that's the best way to think about it it's very again very effective for

spk_0 um building ecclesiastical unity and and cohesion yeah super important okay i want to go back and

spk_0 ask a question about Oliver before we go on to what i consider to be the beginnings of this notion of

spk_0 like ceilings and um kind of even spiritual adoption um but before we do i forgot to mention that

spk_0 one of the reasons you list Oliver Caldry uh as falling out of favor with Joseph Smith

spk_0 is because it was it was understood that he may be proposed to a woman but then jilted her

spk_0 and that was surprising to me not only knowing that fanny algebra is around the corner

spk_0 like thinking about what Joseph did with fanny and and how that ended for Joseph versus

spk_0 something that's seeming much more benign proposing and then not

spk_0 following through and that's enough to to make Oliver fall out of favor can you explain a little more

spk_0 about the history in the context because it doesn't just doesn't make sense on a lot of levels that

spk_0 one of the three witnesses to the book of Mormon and the scribe of the book of Mormon

spk_0 would fall out of favor with the prophet because he jilted a woman or just changed his mind

spk_0 without marrying a woman uh help me with that yeah so i have to go back and dig up sources to speak in

spk_0 any meaningful detail but essentially well let me see if i can do do this without garbling it too

spk_0 much so Caldry eventually marries a Whitmer daughter Elizabeth and Whitmer i believe their marriage

spk_0 is in 1832 he'd met her you know three or four years before that i think she's 17 at the time

spk_0 of their marriage he's around 25 and i forget if it may be that he had essentially

spk_0 proposed marriage to her and become betrothed prior to his mission to the laminaites in 1830 and 1831

spk_0 and then might have behaved as if he were not betrothed during that mission made you know bestowed

spk_0 attention on someone else it may may and i may be mixing it up he may have become he may have made

spk_0 promised just to somebody else and then married um Elizabeth Whitmer um so one way or one way or the

spk_0 other it essentially the the complaint had been that Caldry had made promises to marry someone

spk_0 and then acted like he was unattached i don't personally think that's the um

spk_0 main reason for uh riggins supplanting Caldry as Joseph's right hand you know prior to that mission

spk_0 Caldry had had a couple of conflicts with Joseph um i think he really wasn't

spk_0 comfortable playing second fiddle uh he'd made some criticisms of Joseph he'd wanted to also be able

spk_0 to translate so i think there were other things um i don't think his behavior toward potential

spk_0 spouses was was necessarily the main problem okay all right well some i got the

spk_0 impression um when i was reading along so um that's that's good clarification you're not there's

spk_0 no suggestion of sexual impropriety on all of her's part no i mean basically perhaps um being

spk_0 in constant um but not sexual impropriety okay all right so in addition to these um these

spk_0 blessings that are being given it seems like the beginnings of this idea of spiritual orphans

spk_0 and spiritual orphans being sealed so that they become part of an eternal celestial family

spk_0 starts to be being introduced here in the 1835 time frame do i have that right and if so

spk_0 do uh should we talk about that so that's a great question so listeners um may or may not be

spk_0 familiar with the law of adoption that was introduced um in the nov at the nov who temple after

spk_0 Joseph's death in which um church members often usually couples were richially sealed to church

spk_0 hierarchs um as a way of you know becoming part of their larger eternal families um you know my uh

spk_0 and if if listeners want to know more about that there's some there are some great

spk_0 essays by uh Jonathan Staplet uh Samuel Brown and others there's been some great scholarship

spk_0 on that in recent years i don't see evidence for those sorts of adoptive ceilings during Joseph's

spk_0 lifetime there is a sense in these patriarchal blessings that um the blessings in and of themselves

spk_0 connect recipients to sort of chains of priesthood um but i think it's uh in in a way the function

spk_0 is a bit similar but there are fewer uh real world implications whereas in the mid to late 1840s

spk_0 those adoptive ceilings um i would say created more significant this worldly bonds um between

spk_0 um recipients and the people they were sealed to yeah so it's not totally an acrid to say that this idea

spk_0 of people fretting that they would be alone in the afterlife but then but then getting reassurance

spk_0 that they'll be part of a larger spiritual family that that has its origins as early as 1835

spk_0 well through these through these blessings and prophecies that's it's a great question um i may

spk_0 i may need to give it a little bit more thought john i think what i'd say is that in 18 by 1835

spk_0 and i'm sure we'll we'll talk about this in coming episodes

spk_0 Joseph is beginning to think about um marriage as any turnal connection uh that extends beyond the grave

spk_0 um yeah you know i think he's just he's just really sharing that teaching for the first time

spk_0 um i and i think in general um Protestants by this time period there is this emerging hope that

spk_0 um loved ones will be with each other in heaven it's not an unusual idea um i don't know that

spk_0 these patriarchal blessings for spiritual orphans i don't know that there's a stated purpose of

spk_0 eternal connection that you would see later on yeah well what maybe think about this is the

spk_0 the the passage at the end of 156 to begin in 157 i'll just read in the months and years the

spk_0 followed others other saints sought out Joseph senior and received blessings at his hands

spk_0 many church members like emma were spiritual orphans their parents had died or had rejected the church

spk_0 quote thou art blessed of the lord the patriarch told john murdoch quote and shout have a parental

spk_0 blessing and you write the priesthood will remain established in his posterity quote thou may

spk_0 yes no longer be an orphan he blessed Levi jackman no one who embraced the truth would lack for

spk_0 kinship and connection that and it's implied in the afterlife so that's i think that's kind of where

spk_0 my questions start to come from it's like oh yeah these seem like seeds that might be sprouting

spk_0 well i yeah and they they sprout in the years ahead for sure yeah yeah um you know i don't think

spk_0 the thinking is that leave i jackman is nest so i'm going to spend eternity with Joseph senior

spk_0 but in a in a way right you know i think the initial one of the initial thoughts is all church members

spk_0 ideally would be able to receive a father's blessing from their father and those who don't have

spk_0 a father in the church can't do that and in that sense their spiritual orphans and Joseph

spk_0 senior can stand in for their fathers and give them a blessing i think what's a little what is maybe

spk_0 a little bit surprising is the the that office of patriarch develops to the point where

spk_0 church members who do have a father within the church they also want Joseph seniors blessing

spk_0 um but you know you can't have too much blessing

spk_0 absolutely um when Joseph promised people to endow them with power from unhigh what power did they

spk_0 think they were receiving that's a great question so i think you know especially through um the

spk_0 curtland years it's very much a new testament reference to being in doubt with the holy spirit

spk_0 um and being equipped for i would say missions and miracles

spk_0 what types of in miracles healing the sick and raising the dead and those sorts of things

spk_0 yes i would say you know sort of panacostal power of speaking in tongues visions but

spk_0 yes i mean i think the high priesthood from the start was connected also with with miracles

spk_0 but i would say the endowment of power um would also be um the power of the holy spirit to

spk_0 um preach the gospel um i think i would also connect it with the ability to work wonders

spk_0 because a modern i think a modern Mormon would think well i got to get to the holy ghost and i was

spk_0 baptized and that's what gives me the power to to you know experience the holy ghost and then

spk_0 i think men would think okay i was ordained with the priesthood at 12 and then 14 and then 16 and then

spk_0 higher priesthood and it's the priesthood that gives me the power to heal um and to do ordinances um

spk_0 you know so so it's i almost seems like those types of promises have become democratized for almost

spk_0 for all men in the church and partially for women versus getting special endowments from on high

spk_0 after you've made some big sacrifice for the church that's given by the prophet does that make sense

spk_0 now that makes sense and i think those things were also true in the 1830s but then there's also

spk_0 a couple of times jesus promises a particular endowment of power most notably connected with the

spk_0 completion and dedication of the kirtland temple and the solemn assembly that that follows it that

spk_0 you know the holy spirit is going to endow the elders with a particular power at that particular

spk_0 moment for a particular purpose yeah yeah again when i talked previously about fate in the afterlife

spk_0 as a reward or incentive or as a reinforcer for behavior it seems like promises of spiritual power

spk_0 is another almost carrot the joseph seems to offer people as a way to motivate them and

spk_0 inspire them and make them feel uh like they're getting a good a good return from their investments

spk_0 of time and money yeah well and we'll talk about the kirtland temple in a few weeks it's one of those

spk_0 instances in which joseph is very much able to make good on a promise at least as far as many church

spk_0 members are concerned yeah that's good okay why did it you wrote that joseph had the three book of

spk_0 Mormon witnesses choose the twelve apostles why did he have them do it versus just do it himself

spk_0 any idea that is a great question i just can't remember um you know there and i forget when the first

spk_0 reference to the future ordination of twelve apostles occurs it's been quite a few years earlier

spk_0 so that might have been part of the plan from the start but i just can't remember

spk_0 okay and then you write that that when there are damed there are damed literally to find you know

spk_0 to basically process the ties to people that would that would usher in the second coming and that

spk_0 so that part of it you know maybe hasn't has it turned out so well the second coming part of it but

spk_0 i think you've already referenced that previously second coming still coming okay the uh the forever

spk_0 coming second coming right okay um okay uh so um so i guess let's go ahead i think we're coming

spk_0 to the coming to kind of the end of of this section i think it's worth noting i'm curious why

spk_0 you think about this that like if we talk about innovations there really aren't many other mainstream

spk_0 Christian traditions that have said jesus had twelve apostles so archers could have twelve

spk_0 apostles and jesus had a quorum of the seven so we're gonna have a quorum of the seventy like

spk_0 what do you think is a as a as a historian and as uh you know i guess a Protestant Christian as well

spk_0 about joseph saying hey if it was good enough for jesus it's good enough for the modern church

spk_0 let's do it i mean it's kind of bold right yeah it's just fascinating um and i'm surprised other

spk_0 people didn't think of it yeah i'm just starting through my mind i'm sure there are some other

spk_0 there's got to be some other examples but perhaps not to the extent right because um yeah joseph

spk_0 he just reaches for these biblical precedents and just brings them back right footwashing

spk_0 uh apostles seventy spiritual gifts um yeah on and on and on um and petticofts and stuff yeah

spk_0 for people who profits how about profits right and so for well or even thumam right to go back to

spk_0 a prior topic um temples right all right so temples temple ordinances yeah i mean for

spk_0 you i mean it's sort of a cliche to talk about the united states of this time is a bible drenched

spk_0 society you know not everybody had memorized the bible and obviously people totally disagreed

spk_0 about its meaning but it's a powerful source of authority and um so so much of joseph's innovation

spk_0 is rooted one way or another in his innovation with the bible plural marriages another could

spk_0 example yeah exactly yeah yeah and i guess i guess tell me if i'm right that the city redin and

spk_0 and Alexander Campbell were parts of what was called a restorationist movement at the time

spk_0 well or there was a restorationist movement at the time yeah i so i don't think i think a better

spk_0 way of putting it is i don't think people necessarily refer to it as a restorationist movement

spk_0 they wanted to restore the primitive church as they understood it and by that they meant

spk_0 restore the new testament church um which you know that's a dodgy thing to try to figure out exactly

spk_0 what that was and how to restore it but um joseph is unusual in talking about the restoration of

spk_0 i'm going to get the phrase wrong now the restoration of the ancient order of all things or

spk_0 something like that whereas many other reformers want to try to figure out how did early Christianity

spk_0 function what was the early church like let's recapture that some things have been lost joseph

spk_0 simply goes a lot further partly because he thinks there is essentially one plan of salvation

spk_0 for all time and one pattern to the way uh Christians should live their life that stretches back

spk_0 to atom and things get lost in different times and places he wants to bring everything back

spk_0 and were there churches then Christian churches then or are there surviving Christian churches today

spk_0 that represent other than Joseph Smith kind of the maximum achievement of a restorationist inclined

spk_0 Protestant church does that make sense like it almost seems like Joseph out restored any of the

spk_0 restorationist and nobody's been out restored Joseph Smith with a nice way of putting it um yeah

spk_0 I don't know I mean there definitely are there are churches that would also draw on the Old

spk_0 Testament as well as the new but I would say most streams of restorationism such as the churches

spk_0 of Christ which is you know still pretty significant particularly in the American South they're

spk_0 really focused on New Testament Christianity so for instance they sing without accompaniment because

spk_0 accompaniment is not mentioned in the New Testament um so I mean probably women can't speak in the

spk_0 church you know like I'm not sure perhaps not um I can't remember um but the idea of restoring

spk_0 everything that's very Joseph Smith and it's I think it's I think we have to just admit that

spk_0 maybe as part of his brilliance because I know as a missionary is a more an missionary I'd go hey

spk_0 Jesus that's what we guess what so do we right and like that's that's like whoa to somebody that's

spk_0 like looking for power or profits right you know they're profits in the Old New Testament we have

spk_0 profits today you know that that that logic of like yeah why would God care about his people for

spk_0 six thousand years or five thousand years or four thousand years and then all of a sudden not

spk_0 want to talk to his people anymore that's a compelling line of our argument for some people and

spk_0 similarly Jesus had 12 apostles we have a profit today and guess what 12 apostles and guess what

spk_0 a 70 and you know that's pretty I think that's I think we have to give Joseph credit because that

spk_0 has to be at least part of this the secret of the Mormon Church's success yeah maybe he got a little

spk_0 little bit carried away with poor old marriage but we'll get to that John look we're not there we're

spk_0 I was there we're getting there okay um well I think just to summarize what I wrote right

spk_0 I wrote on the bottom of page 158 is Adam disaster meaning Zion's camp what does Joseph do in the

spk_0 face of disaster well he creates patriarchs patriarchal blessings the beginnings of the office of

spk_0 the patriarch he creates a core of the 12 apostles and a core of the 70 and gives a bunch of people

spk_0 and a huge missionary force and he gets everybody excited about their various roles in the community

spk_0 and their their responsibilities to help usher in the second coming of Jesus like what a fantastic pivot

spk_0 and innovate in an an example of innovation yeah springing out of Zion's camp and again that's your

spk_0 book helped me realize that that's what he did that's what he does over and over again he maps these

spk_0 bold pivots and he turns lemons into gallons of lemonade you know yeah unfortunately some

spk_0 additional lemons and lemonade the lemons keep coming right yeah so next yeah next next time

spk_0 we'll talk about mummies and papyri and tempers fraying and it's not it's no matter what it's never

spk_0 easy to maintain cohesion and unity it's not yeah so next next week you know next episode is chapter 16

spk_0 Abraham uh basically 1835 so we're going to be talking about the book of Abraham and other things

spk_0 I will look forward to it John DeLon all right John Turner well thanks so much for joining us today

spk_0 this is a great chapter um we really appreciate everything you're doing to help us learn more about

spk_0 our own people and our own history it's fun for me all right take care John we'll see you next week

spk_0 all right bye bye and thanks everyone for joining us today I'm armor stories podcast again the book is

spk_0 Joseph Smith the rise and fall of an American prophet buy it uh with benchmark books if he can

spk_0 or on amazon or from Yale directly from Yale University Press um let's make it a New York Times best

spk_0 seller thank you for those who donate to Mormon stories and or who have donated to this

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spk_0 slash Joseph Smith uh sorry go to donorbox.org slash Joseph Smith and you can donate to keep this

spk_0 project alive um and uh yeah most importantly just join us for future episodes we've got a lot to

spk_0 cover including uh lots of things with Kurtland and the in the bank scandal and the book of Abraham

spk_0 and Vanny Alger and Oliver and Oliver's punishment and we go on to uh you know so much so much more

spk_0 including uh the council of 50 and the Danites and uh and Liberty Jail and and then the formation of

spk_0 of Navu and and John C Bennett and polygamy and uh again the council of 50 and Joseph running for

spk_0 president there's so much more to to cover so please uh stick with us hope you're enjoying it we

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Anti-Mormonism and Kirtland Blessings - John Turner Pt. 16 | Ep. 2067

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