522. Jonathan Kung on Cutting Through the Noise on Food and Climate

Interactive Transcript

spk_0 Hey Foodtakers, this is Foodtalk's executive producer Rob Perra.

spk_0 On today's episode, Danny sits down with Jonathan Cung, a chef, cookbook author, and influential

spk_0 content creator known for his vibrant third culture cooking, blending cultural traditions,

spk_0 flavors, and ingredients that hold personal meaning.

spk_0 They talk about what it means to be a third culture cook, how to combat misinformation

spk_0 around nutrition and health, and the local grassroots communities that he hopes to see

spk_0 more people plug into to drive change.

spk_0 Enjoy.

spk_0 Hey everyone, today I get to talk with Jonathan Cung, who is a third culture cook and content

spk_0 creator known for their very engaging and informative presence on social media, especially

spk_0 TikTok and Instagram.

spk_0 Cung's work bridges the gap between culinary arts, cultural exploration, and food policy

spk_0 awareness, and he really tries to reach out to younger audiences around critical issues,

spk_0 including the climate crisis, farmers, and in our food and agriculture systems.

spk_0 He is, like I said, very popular.

spk_0 I'm excited to talk to him today, get his advice on how sort of we handle the politics of

spk_0 the day and how he's dealing with, you know, what many people feel isolated.

spk_0 They don't feel like they're connected to their communities, and how social media can

spk_0 be used to help that.

spk_0 But also, you know, how he uses his platform as a cook to talk about some uncomfortable

spk_0 issues and get folks to understand the link between what we eat and the environment we live

spk_0 in.

spk_0 So I'm excited to talk to him and look forward to hearing what he has to say.

spk_0 Jonathan, what a pleasure to have you.

spk_0 Thank you so much.

spk_0 Thank you so much for having me.

spk_0 I want to ask you a question.

spk_0 Do you not like the term chef?

spk_0 For me, chef has always been just an administrative role.

spk_0 I know because of television and, you know, a lot of romanticization around the name.

spk_0 And I understand that it can be a very meaningful title to some people.

spk_0 But for me, it was very much just the difference between a chef and a cook was like the chef

spk_0 had to be in the office doing all the paperwork and the ordering, the firing, like all of the

spk_0 books do make the food.

spk_0 The chef's kind of like, is it admin?

spk_0 So I don't do that anymore.

spk_0 And so I don't feel one way or another attached to the role now some for some other people.

spk_0 Once a chef always a chef and I'm fine with them calling me that, especially if it's

spk_0 other in the food and beverage industry.

spk_0 But otherwise, I don't introduce myself as such.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 I got it.

spk_0 So you identify it as I said as a third culture cook.

spk_0 Can you explain to our listeners and viewers what that means to you?

spk_0 Sure.

spk_0 Being a person of cathartic culture is a very specific lived experience where you grew up

spk_0 on the precipice of two very distinct cultures.

spk_0 The one that like inhabited the home where you lived and a completely separate one that

spk_0 kind of like operates outside, directly outside of the world where your home was.

spk_0 So in my case, I grew up in a very Chinese household and in that case and that same case,

spk_0 that household was in North America, whether it be Canada or the United States.

spk_0 So I crossed in my daily life from young childhood to adulthood, I crossed a cultural threshold

spk_0 every day and had to dance, communicate, laugh, eat, drink.

spk_0 The differences between the two on a daily basis and experience that my parents didn't

spk_0 really have as like people who came as adults and an experience that a lot of my peers

spk_0 didn't have as like natives to a country.

spk_0 So yeah, it's not a good or bad thing.

spk_0 I use it as like a creative outlet and I express that through my food.

spk_0 We have some some like wonderful nuances and have this ability to combine our experiences

spk_0 in both worlds into something that I think is completely unique and it's not, you know,

spk_0 it's not unique to just my Chinese experience.

spk_0 There are culture in United States, there are third culture of Mexicans, there are third culture

spk_0 Nigerians, there are third culture French, like there are many, many people that share

spk_0 this experience and a lot of us though our cultures are completely different, the ones

spk_0 that we came from, it is found that our experiences in the way we see the world, the way we understand

spk_0 humor, the way we communicate, the way we have an increased levels of empathy because

spk_0 we have to learn how to communicate with different people day on a daily basis and just

spk_0 switch that immediately.

spk_0 Yeah, we have those things in common so we get it even though we might not speak the

spk_0 same language.

spk_0 Right, right, like literally.

spk_0 I want to come back to the empathy point a moment but crossing a cultural threshold every

spk_0 day, you know, you have, you've had to do that.

spk_0 It can be traumatizing for some people, right?

spk_0 And I'm wondering what advice you have, especially for young people like yourself, who have

spk_0 had a similar experience but it's, you know, it's more difficult for them.

spk_0 Mm-hmm.

spk_0 It is, it is more difficult but I've always found that nothing is a few things that are

spk_0 worth it are ever really easy.

spk_0 Yes.

spk_0 Growing up is hard and doing growing up in this way can be isolating but there is a whole

spk_0 world of people out there and as your world gets bigger as you grow up, you will find

spk_0 these people.

spk_0 I did, I found these people through TikTok.

spk_0 I didn't even know that people didn't know what the term third culture was.

spk_0 This is something that I was privileged to just grow up with.

spk_0 So, since high school and I just thought everybody knew what this term was, I thought

spk_0 everybody understood what this experience was but there are so many people out there that

spk_0 were like when I was talking about this stuff in my videos was like, oh my gosh, this is,

spk_0 this is who I am and I didn't even know there was a word for it.

spk_0 So yes, it is, it can be alone in that life.

spk_0 Being insightful in different ways can be very lonely.

spk_0 I mean, it is pride month like that is another level in which people have this, can have

spk_0 this like a possibility for loneliness because we are different but again, your world will

spk_0 get bigger and you will meet other people who are like you and you will bounce ideas off

spk_0 each other and hopefully you will create some delicious and beautiful things as a result.

spk_0 Absolutely.

spk_0 What I like about you is you have been able to use your life experiences to really become

spk_0 this great advocate and really help raise issues for folks like you said that they don't

spk_0 know about.

spk_0 When we talk about empathy and also sort of the epidemic of loneliness in this country,

spk_0 I feel like there is so much of all lack of empathy.

spk_0 We are seeing more of it grow.

spk_0 I think again in the culinary world there was that time when chefs were like, you know,

spk_0 we are throwing their pants.

spk_0 Now there is more awareness of mental health and all the challenges that people face working

spk_0 those long hours.

spk_0 How do you sort of look at those two things, the epidemic of loneliness and the need for

spk_0 more empathy especially right now?

spk_0 I think when it comes to this epidemic of loneliness, a lot of it has to do with a younger

spk_0 generation just growing up isolated through COVID and that is what they knew.

spk_0 The fact that we communicate with each other more through screens now than we do on just

spk_0 an in person basis unless we still have to go to work and like our human interactions

spk_0 that we have like for the most part our obligatory or force, there is nowhere for us to hang

spk_0 out anymore.

spk_0 Third places are gone, rents are so high, like these places very, especially in cities

spk_0 don't really exist.

spk_0 This, I want to say like loneliness in this day and age seems to be inflicted on us by

spk_0 through so many different like sources, whether it is like a lack of public spaces, free

spk_0 spaces, whether it is disagreements politically speaking, whether it is simply just an inability

spk_0 to be uncomfortable around people that don't exactly agree the same way that you do.

spk_0 I think we're not as used to being as uncomfortable as we once were and it makes us a lot less

spk_0 tolerant to like, and I'm not saying like you know somebody who is just completely morally

spk_0 opposed to you but even people within our own political and moral camps like one person

spk_0 can say the wrong thing or not know the right thing at the right time and that so easily

spk_0 just basis first for that person to get shunned and it's not even through an intent, it's

spk_0 just through the moment and what they did or did not know at the time.

spk_0 Yeah, and I think in that way a lot of that loneliness can be self-inflicted.

spk_0 Yeah, yeah, that really resonates with me this idea of sort of digging into the uncomfortable

spk_0 and you know, understanding that they're going to be people you disagree with but maybe they'll

spk_0 also change your mind hopefully for good and not for some of the bad things we see.

spk_0 Yeah, yeah, I mean like that definitely swings both ways.

spk_0 Yeah, well what is it like that sort is definitely double edged as it were.

spk_0 For real, for real. So you're not only someone who cares deeply about the culinary world and

spk_0 creating and really reaching people but you care about sort of the whole world of sustainability

spk_0 in our food and agriculture systems and I'm wondering if you can share you know some of your

spk_0 thoughts on what you're seeing and hearing. Up until I guess this current administration there seem

spk_0 to have been a positive trend towards a desire to live sustainably. I'm not really sure how things

spk_0 are going now but it seems like the zeitgeist really just does follow the way that the country

spk_0 just goes based on its leadership in a such a weird way or maybe we're just in a hierarchy of

spk_0 need situation where it was like before we could think about things like that now a lot of people

spk_0 are just trying to survive and I'm not you can't blame anyone for or for like having to worry about

spk_0 those things but there was such an interest leading up to the election of sustainable living

spk_0 of things that because you know climate change is still very real it is at this point a train

spk_0 that we cannot stop and we had in a way the luxury of worrying about something like that.

spk_0 A lot of us do but not enough of us do I would say so I can still try to lead by example

spk_0 in my content and try to like you know one thing I would love to do and I one thing I do love to do

spk_0 is hide sustainable practices within like economic response and under the veil of economic like

spk_0 responsibility saving money, reusing things as much as possible which is just simply tactics of

spk_0 trying of things that I learned in the restaurant working in restaurants just trying to profit.

spk_0 All of these things are line step within each other and is are very easily passed on through video

spk_0 as little tidbits of knowledge. Yeah that's so creative and that I feel like that kind of thing

spk_0 really reaches young people who are you know they they might not be as worried about the climate

spk_0 crisis as they were six months ago but I think they do care about you know like you said how to

spk_0 save money, how to you know reuse things this is a generation that I feel like gets it you know

spk_0 that they're not so focused on consumerism but at the same time young folks lack a lot of

spk_0 representation when it comes to decision making or policy making folks of color folks of different

spk_0 ethnicities they they lack the same sort of representation and I wonder how that is shaping some

spk_0 of what we're seeing around food and agriculture policy. I think young people in general do care

spk_0 especially from the basis of health and well being where our food comes from what is used on our food

spk_0 and that is more likely to incite some kind of willingness to vote and policy making unfortunately

spk_0 within that space itself especially within like the short form media space there are so many there's

spk_0 so much misinformation that drives passion. Yeah out there and yes it can get them engaged but

spk_0 unfortunately a lot of their actions are not informed by science. I mean climate it's very climate

spk_0 it seems like in general we are very well educated and what is good and what is bad for the planet it

spk_0 is but when it comes to our own health and wellness a lot of people are just willing to believe

spk_0 anything. Right right and as we can see now you know it's not just young people who believe these

spk_0 things in fact it's it's a lot of the people who are in positions of power as well so yeah it's

spk_0 it does inform their desire to take action but unfortunately it's not always the right thing. Yeah

spk_0 no I see that a lot especially in the food as medicine space and the nutrition space I have a

spk_0 meeting later today to talk about how we fight that misinformation but I think one of the things

spk_0 that you do really well is use your culinary creativity to fight that misinformation and you know

spk_0 is there a particular experience that you want to share you know that you've you've found is useful

spk_0 or practical for people you talked about you know sort of the economical side of that this you know

spk_0 inserting that into your content but are there other ways that have been useful for you.

spk_0 Shame to say getting people angry is very is very effective which is which is something that I

spk_0 use very sparingly short for media has gotten to the point where people have realized that attention

spk_0 and retention of attention is much more successful when you are bringing discourse and rage as opposed

spk_0 to joy. I think a lot of people now get into like these habits of what they call like doom scrolling

spk_0 and just like just falling down the spirals of like bad news and hot takes and stuff so I don't like

spk_0 to get people angry in my content too much in fact I like to like save I like to like in this time

spk_0 at least exude as much peace as I can. So I was I put out there but you know there are still things

spk_0 that are worth getting angry over and when it comes to misinformation I'm very passionate about

spk_0 topics I can get pretty like heated up and so it's my passion my passion shows through it when

spk_0 it comes to these topics and I think people do respond to that. Absolutely absolutely I get fired

spk_0 up about these things too especially when it comes to RFK and I've been very vocal about that and

spk_0 you know food tank prize itself and being sort of a center organization I wonder what you know what

spk_0 I imagine I know what your thoughts from watching some of your content are on RFK but the

spk_0 misinformation that's coming out of the health and the office of health and human services is

spk_0 very extreme right now. A lot of people believe it and how do we counteract that whether we're

spk_0 cooks or advocates or you know regular consumers. I have not yet figured out whether people believe

spk_0 him because they actually believe him or whether they believe him because he is on their side of

spk_0 the political side. One thing that I have not figured out and it's something that I've been working

spk_0 on because you know at the end of the day I work in the food industry them of the food

spk_0 and beverage industry I care what happens to farmers and there are not very many farmers

spk_0 in the state of Michigan who see eye to eye with me politically but I still at my core just want

spk_0 them to do well and want them to survive I want them to thrive but with so with that being said like

spk_0 people just act against their own interests all the time for that say they see politics almost like

spk_0 a sports team yeah no matter what no matter what they do to us no matter how much they just

spk_0 appoint us no matter how much they break our hearts we will always vote this way

spk_0 and I don't understand like if RFK were somebody that was you know spewing these things from the

spk_0 other side of the aisle would they still think the same things like would they still would they

spk_0 still so readily believe him I mean like I think giving him the time to even speak all on a so

spk_0 net letter on like you know appoint people beneath him and appoint people into offices or like

spk_0 alongside him like would people be as willing to follow if it if it wasn't if he wasn't a

spk_0 Republican to begin with like right right I hadn't figured that out and so I can you know debunk

spk_0 and reshare videos from other scientists other actual doctors and people who are in researchers

spk_0 in the fields of vaccine study and whatnot like I don't know where that I don't know where that

spk_0 disbelief is coming from or how to have it or like where the seed was planted that eventually

spk_0 grew into this fanatical belief right right one thing that strikes me and that I have talked about

spk_0 frequently is that there are so many of people I love people I admire in the food nutrition health

spk_0 agriculture space who are so excited about RFK junior and you know his role now at health and

spk_0 human services and I've been so surprised by that because I I don't know how to counteract

spk_0 that because this is a man who I feel doesn't have the qualifications as you've just pointed out to be

spk_0 running this office I wonder if the same things happening happening to you because you're a food person

spk_0 I think there is I think it starts off with people who are willing to agree to listen to the things

spk_0 that he says and he starts off with quite mild things that are really understandable generally accepted

spk_0 um there is this purveying thought within like I guess our population that the food that we consume

spk_0 by and large is unhealthy and the food like that pesticides are not good for us that um the scary

spk_0 word du jour chemicals and unnatural chemicals which you know literally the world is chemicals

spk_0 like that that that seems to be something that that is where things begin and then things spiral

spk_0 out of control from there yeah and that isn't to say that we have a perfect food system we have a

spk_0 very consumer driven pleasure driven diet because we are a we are a country that just has like

spk_0 we're a country of plenty in that way we have a lot of like you know hedonistic snacks that are

spk_0 very easy and very um and and very cheap and then we also have a lot of processed foods which also

spk_0 is a word that people are terrified but really has no actual meaning in the world of actually I can

spk_0 cut a carrot in that process right I was like okay what about ultra processed and everybody thinks

spk_0 ultra processed only means potato chips and french fries and I only think of potato products

spk_0 right now when I think of ultra processed but that also means your protein powders and that also

spk_0 means vital like these and I think it's when when we like focus on these buzzwords which they

spk_0 oftentimes really do and only for and then they correlate those buzzwords with things that are not

spk_0 that they know are not good for them but completely bring the fact that like we know what to do

spk_0 like we know we're supposed to eat fruits and right and like yes there are pesticides on these things

spk_0 but you know you can wash them off um I think though the the right thing to do is oftentimes in front

spk_0 of us but so easily just like overshadowed by like oh but this is so much more fun and easy and

spk_0 obviously this is not talking about like we have to take on the issues of access because not a lot

spk_0 of people have access to like food or not not everybody has access to like fresh fruit and vegetables

spk_0 and nutritious meals um but that's a completely different like that's a completely different sector

spk_0 on its own those are people that have no choice as opposed to folks that do yeah I wonder in your

spk_0 content if this lack of access the lack of affordability for healthy foods comes up and and what

spk_0 your your listeners think about it uh it depends the people that know that I'm pretty that understand

spk_0 that I'm pretty no nonsense in the like in the advice that I give and the content that I make

spk_0 like they like it is very very simple health and nutrition focused stuff because I don't really

spk_0 know enough to get all that complicated about it not a nutritionist I'm very very happy to say that

spk_0 but you know I pay attention to more than most when it comes to tracking macro nutrients vitamins

spk_0 and making sure that I get everything that I need I mean you know I've made it my very secret

spk_0 not until now life's goal to get more Americans to eat fiber because 95% of let's do not get

spk_0 enough fiber in our foods right right and so and but we're all obsessed with protein as if like

spk_0 pooping is difficult enough but yeah that's that that's but that's been what what my focus has been

spk_0 on just like the the basic things and I always seem I always look out to make sure that I have like the

spk_0 comment in the comments to make sure that I have the okay from my the doctors that I follow from

spk_0 the nutritionist that I follow that's very essential feedback that I actively look for and if they

spk_0 sign off on it then I feel good about the the advice that I give but I won't give any time to

spk_0 somebody who says but you use the seed oil John and I love you more I love you more than I thought I

spk_0 would but this is great this is great I knew I was going to love you but this is even better than

spk_0 I could have imagined I so glad the this responsibility that you feel as somebody putting out

spk_0 information not all of your your colleagues on tiktok feel the same way right we talked about

spk_0 misinformation before is because you're so popular do you think you know other tiktokers and other

spk_0 social media influencers can you know look at you and follow your lead is that something you

spk_0 you feel like you're studying sort of the standard for uh oh at the risk of sounding a little jade

spk_0 is like I am popular I'm not as popular as people that don't care it is short form media is at the end

spk_0 of the day like the potato chips of yeah it is something that people turn to for quick fix of

spk_0 entertainment and like it can be at times depending on the platform depending on the time of day

spk_0 it can be a place where people still go to like learn something or discover something but it has the

spk_0 the the medium has very very rapidly devolved or or like yes I will say that um into like on the

spk_0 most harmless end of the spectrum you cat and pitpole videos which I love um and on the other hand

spk_0 it is like you know complete like misinformation whether it be from any topic that you already have

spk_0 maybe something that you might be inclined to agree with yeah it's very good at finding your

spk_0 lowest common denominator for attention that's what it's designed for and unfortunately

spk_0 um learning and education is like much higher than there so I think when I think when the community

spk_0 was much smaller and there were less options I had the like to speak frankly I had the advantage of

spk_0 being one of the first and I grew very quickly in that way because of that and I just have not allowed

spk_0 my beliefs to falter and I didn't want to change my content style as a result and I'm really

spk_0 grateful for the people that have stuck with me and the people that are in because now you're now

spk_0 it's there's so many other options there um but I feel like the more time goes by I'm becoming more

spk_0 different by staying the same that I was started that smart it's been smart for you sort of going

spk_0 back to policy I wonder what advice you have for young folks we at food tank we call uh voter citizen

spk_0 eaters people you know who vote with their their forex obviously but also vote you know for the

spk_0 kinds of food and agriculture systems they want to see what advice do you have for young people who

spk_0 want to get involved but don't always understand the connections between food nutrition climate etc um

spk_0 I think the best thing that you can do is like look for a physical community in your area farmers

spk_0 markets I would say though it might be a little bit of a cliche to find somebody with a note

spk_0 like a no pet in a writing board out of farmers market but I think there's that is still like a good spot

spk_0 comes to community like not only is are you do you have the opportunity to like you know get

spk_0 politically involved but you can like meet your farmers and do community supported agriculture see

spk_0 what they're doing find out the message boards that they're a part of and those grassroots

spk_0 communities are still very very active and very passionate and it is very easy to like fall into

spk_0 now you probably have to live in a bigger city to do that for maybe even more liberal city that is

spk_0 smaller like an arbor but they are out there um as a poet and like for people in smaller communities

spk_0 then I think you know the internet is still a very good resource that you content creators that

spk_0 are activists are more on the activist side there are a lot of content creators that are farmers now

spk_0 and are spread all over farmer Nick who just recently moved to michigan is one example

spk_0 and uh not a farmer but black for roger Alexis Nicole is also a very good person yeah

spk_0 love her I know I've been trying to steal her from Ohio

spk_0 like you'd be so much happier and Detroit come to Detroit but he's at least he's a she's a

spk_0 stalwart midwesterner we can find a solace in that but there are there are many there are many

spk_0 people who are entertaining to watch an extremely educational and will like happily hand out of resource

spk_0 um but still I think like the trend will be moving towards in person I think we're I think we're

spk_0 kind of over the virtual at this point and we need human connection yeah it goes back to the

spk_0 loneliness epidemic I think so many of us crave that that community I mean one of the reasons I go

spk_0 to my farmers market is to talk to my farmers you know because I'm friends with them now you know

spk_0 a conversation ask them how they're how they're doing like I don't think people really have these

spk_0 conversations anymore we need to it's gotten so bad that I think that we need to bring back small talk

spk_0 I always like I grew up my entire life thinking that this stuff was so fearless it was like

spk_0 and I would love the opportunity to talk about this weather to somebody right right absolutely I

spk_0 couldn't agree more um I have two more questions for you one is you have a new cookbook do you

spk_0 want to talk about it a little a cookbook is called kung food um by john cung and uh it is yeah it's

spk_0 just third culture recipes from like things that I that are informed by my Chinese culinary

spk_0 background specifically Cantonese which are with a little bit of like szechuan influences here

spk_0 in there because I just love that cuisine so much and then like things that were informed by my

spk_0 childhood in the in Canada in the United States so like like a dandong lasagna that was both like

spk_0 szechuan cooking but also informed by the stofers lasagna that I used to love as a kid um even broccoli

spk_0 pot pie uh hankong chicken and waffles that kind of thing lots of fun creative dishes

spk_0 that are just based on both worlds I love it I wonder what your friends and family think about

spk_0 this work that you do oh I don't I don't I don't know if they get it um but like any

spk_0 traditional Chinese family I'm sure they're fine just knowing that I'm fine

spk_0 that's good that's good call the action for the audience that has been listening to you oh um well

spk_0 obviously get involved please please don't lose hope and don't let's not fall into like a pit of

spk_0 nihilism with everything that's happening um stay active stay positive and um I guess you could

spk_0 follow me on my socials you want to give those out real quick that was my next and final one

spk_0 k o k you and g at everything but most importantly you know don't lose hope that's a great point to end

spk_0 on Jonathan what a pleasure thank you for taking the time to talk to us I really really appreciate it

spk_0 thank you so much so I just got to chat with johnson kung uh what a delight um we talked about a lot of

spk_0 things including meeting the amphitheatre to come back um the epidemic of loneliness in the

spk_0 country and how you know he encouraged uh his call to action was encouraging people to get off

spk_0 social media for the most part and go to farmers markets go to places where you can meet others

spk_0 bring back small hog what he's doing with food is is crossing cultures and and and having that

spk_0 that sort of third culture cook um mentality that brings so many people together and delights so

spk_0 many people because it's delicious um he you know talked a uh a little bit about you know sort of its

spk_0 own epidemic uh of misinformation online and and you know we we tried to figure out why people

spk_0 listen to folks who are not experts who are not basing things on science based evidence um he

spk_0 talked about politics being like a team and like you know you stay with your team no matter what

spk_0 and how that's not a a really good sort of way to to think about how policy is made and and what kind

spk_0 of a country and what kind of world we we want so you know uh I think he has a huge responsibility

spk_0 because he is so popular on social media and I think he takes that really seriously so it was a

spk_0 pleasure to talk to him I hope you'll follow him on instagram at john congeo and k-u-n-g

spk_0 tiktok at john con youtube with john con and blue sky john con dot bsk y dot social um it was

spk_0 really fun to talk to him thanks everyone for listening thanks for listening as always if you're

spk_0 not a food tank member yet what are you waiting for go to foodtank dot com slash join to become a

spk_0 member today there's a membership level that's just right for you

522. Jonathan Kung on Cutting Through the Noise on Food and Climate

Interactive Transcript

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