Trump's War on Blue America

Interactive Transcript

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spk_0 Welcome to PlotSafe America. I'm John Favre.

spk_0 I'm John Loveett. I'm Tommy Gertor.

spk_0 On today's show, the shutdown continues with no end in sight.

spk_0 The November elections are a month away and this week we're gonna talk about Gavin Newsom's ballot measure

spk_0 here in California to neutralize Republican gerrymandering.

spk_0 And then you'll hear Tommy's interview with Ben Smith at SEMIFOR

spk_0 about the impact of Barry Weiss taking over at CBS News,

spk_0 how Donald Trump's media filter may be impacting his decisions

spk_0 and whether the ABC News Jimmy Kimmel saga has changed corporate media.

spk_0 But let's start with the president's war against blue America,

spk_0 which has now come to Chicago and Portland.

spk_0 I'll just quickly go through the facts of what's been happening on the ground

spk_0 and then you guys can respond.

spk_0 In Chicago, armed federal agents have been engaged in military style immigration raids.

spk_0 They're calling Operation Midway Blitz.

spk_0 Last week, Black Hawk helicopters landed on a south side apartment building in the middle of the night,

spk_0 where about 100 agents in tactical gear used flashbang grenades to bust through the residents' doors,

spk_0 dragged them outside, including legal residents and US citizens,

spk_0 including children, some naked, and zip tied them together for hours.

spk_0 No warrants, no lawyers, kids crying, separated from their families.

spk_0 They have also deployed tear gas outside schools and on streets,

spk_0 not just against peaceful protesters, but people who were just passing by.

spk_0 They arrested a city council member in a hospital who had merely asked to see a warrant.

spk_0 They've shot rubber bullets and pepperballs at multiple journalists who just filed a lawsuit.

spk_0 They shot lethal bullets at a woman in a vehicle they said was trying to ram them.

spk_0 Just before we started recording, I said that the body cam footage shows that maybe they rammed her

spk_0 as they're going through the court proceeding.

spk_0 So of course you can't trust anything they say.

spk_0 Some of the raids they filmed for social media, so Kristinaum could tweet them out.

spk_0 She was there in person last week in Chicago, whining after local officials in one building

spk_0 didn't let her use the potty.

spk_0 Then promising that Trump would be sending in the Department of War, which he did.

spk_0 On Saturday, the president announced he'd be deploying 300 troops from the Illinois National Guard

spk_0 over the objections of Governor Pritzker.

spk_0 And then on Sunday, he decided to send 200 troops from the Texas National Guard to Chicago as well.

spk_0 Governor JB Pritzker and the city of Chicago are suing to stop the deployments

spk_0 and the judge scheduled a hearing for later this week.

spk_0 Here's Donald Trump,

spk_0 crowing about his progress on Monday afternoon in the Oval Office,

spk_0 followed by Pritzker's response to the takeover.

spk_0 We're going to make Chicago really great again,

spk_0 and we're going to stop this crime.

spk_0 Then we're going to go to another one.

spk_0 And we're going to go city by city.

spk_0 We're going to have safe cities.

spk_0 I believe that Pritzker and this mayor of Chicago

spk_0 that like to say about we have it under control.

spk_0 Not only is it not under control, it's the opposite.

spk_0 And I believe they're afraid they're scared for their lives.

spk_0 I think they can fool us all into thinking that the way to get out of this crisis,

spk_0 that they created, is to give them free reign.

spk_0 Well, that plan will only work if we let it.

spk_0 The state of Illinois is going to use every lever at our disposal

spk_0 to resist this power grab and get gnomes, thugs, the hell out of Chicago.

spk_0 I'm not afraid. I am not afraid. And I won't back down.

spk_0 So last week, we had Trump telling an audience of generals

spk_0 that they're now fighting, quote, an enemy within,

spk_0 urge them to use America's cities as quote, training grounds.

spk_0 Looks like we're seeing that now.

spk_0 We'll get to what's happening in Portland in a second.

spk_0 But what do you guys make of the situation in Chicago,

spk_0 which is Trump said, is not only not under control, but the opposite.

spk_0 Which I guess is out of control.

spk_0 Right. It's the opposite of under control.

spk_0 Over control, that's not right.

spk_0 That's not right.

spk_0 Even the terminology is kind of chilling.

spk_0 Operation Midway Blitz.

spk_0 The Blitz was when the Germans bombed the shed out of London for about a year.

spk_0 Yeah, I thought that was for like foreign military operations.

spk_0 We give names to.

spk_0 Yeah, like just even, you know, you're claiming you're doing this on behalf of the people of Chicago.

spk_0 Call it something like safe, safe dish.

spk_0 Deep dish, deep hot dish, deep safety, different style safety.

spk_0 Do you see like videos of the Chicago cops who are tear gaspies too?

spk_0 Oh, yeah. I forgot about that.

spk_0 There are so many of these videos that I've like forgot to include them all.

spk_0 Like look, I just think that the political take-home is this to me as the fight Trump wants.

spk_0 He wants to cause a week on both immigration and soft on crime.

spk_0 And I think he wants these images on TV of like what looks like violent and chaotic.

spk_0 And so he sends ice into these communities in the most inflammatory way possible to try to make that happen.

spk_0 And like these ice raids, like that black hawk helicopters kicking down doors at night

spk_0 with flashbangs, that is like what the special forces did for two decades in Afghanistan or Iraq.

spk_0 And they have their social media teams like filming it all and releasing it.

spk_0 The hype video they did released, or remind me of the video Bukhale released when we first sent all the Venezuelan men to secote.

spk_0 And so it's like clearly a strategy.

spk_0 I don't think it's a smart strategy.

spk_0 We'll get into some of the polling later, but like 58% of voters in the CBS poll.

spk_0 So they disapprove of national guard deployments.

spk_0 I'm not sure like they want to see people getting brutalized in these communities, but Stephen Miller does.

spk_0 Yeah, to the point of not being able to believe the word they said.

spk_0 So they were pelling into the roof at to what end for what purpose?

spk_0 Like they're trying to get out of a bottle of the bag of the Pakistanis behind us.

spk_0 It's filled with trendy aragua.

spk_0 Well, that's the other thing.

spk_0 We were actually doing this to get gang members.

spk_0 They've released no information about that. They can't be trusted.

spk_0 They said a bunch of people who were innocent were gang members when they shipped them off to El Salvador.

spk_0 So we can't take their word for it.

spk_0 All we do see are images of Americans and legal residents being bound up and complaining about this happening in their building.

spk_0 It's a completely ridiculous outside show of force, which they're doing for the cameras to make their fascists agi-prope.

spk_0 And you know, the defense, they're gonna release information at some point saying,

spk_0 look at all these people that Democrats wish for still in these buildings as if it is not possible for our laws to be enforced without a black cock helicopter of an American city and people repelling down onto the roof.

spk_0 Yeah, I mean, imagine if let's take their word for it that they're were trendy aragua, you know, gang members in that building and get a warrant from a judge.

spk_0 You can, there's a million ways that you can go into the building and, you know, and arrest these people without them running away or knowing that you're coming.

spk_0 Stairs, right? Like not black cock helicopters.

spk_0 There's a five story building, by the way, this isn't, this isn't, this isn't, this isn't, you know, this isn't a part of a building.

spk_0 Right, this isn't a part of a serious tower.

spk_0 But also like there's a lot of people in there. They took all the residents out and they're definitely lying at least about some of the people because a lot of citizens and legal residents were already,

spk_0 have already been released because they didn't do anything, but they were out in the cold for hours.

spk_0 These kids are screaming like little kid, this eyewitness is talking to like a local television channel there and just said it was like horrifying.

spk_0 These kids who are like some of them were naked, some of them weren't like fully clothed and they're crying and they're separated from their parents.

spk_0 And one of the ice agents is saying fuck them kids and like they just don't care.

spk_0 This is also the war on terror coming over Roost because like the cops now have M-Raps because there's all this leftover military equipment from a rocket Afghanistan.

spk_0 Ice has a black cock helicopter and Chicago for some reason. What are we doing here? We completely militarized policing in this country.

spk_0 And the ice agents now are acting with impunity because they have good reason to believe they're not going to be held accountable.

spk_0 And because they are trying to meet Stephen Miller's quota of 3,000 arrests per day and I guess a million deportations a year.

spk_0 And so they're going to just arrest everyone who they see. And like this is what we're getting.

spk_0 So your point about strategy Tommy like it's definitely it's interesting like their strategy for sure is they want people to see that this is a militarized operation and that they are happy to use force.

spk_0 Yeah. The difference is like the lies about who it's directed towards right. So they want to put out keep putting out videos that tell you yes they're using it's a militarized operation.

spk_0 Yes, they're using force but it's against the worst or the worst these terrible crimes again and Democrats are against it.

spk_0 And the videos that we're actually seeing are them using force against not the videos they're putting out but the videos that we're seeing otherwise are them using force against cops, kids innocent people, American citizens, peaceful protest.

spk_0 Right, they drive a tank through the wall and they pull out on tree the hairdresser from the other side.

spk_0 Right. Come on guys, this is bullshit.

spk_0 Yeah, it's the other thing too is it's like it's all as predicated like they do have a siege mentality now, right.

spk_0 These ice officers themselves feel like they're under siege. They've been made they've been they've been they've been internalized that Stephen Miller's whole like there's a country under siege our side is under siege.

spk_0 And so they respond with siege like tactics and who does that work for well it works for people that are like it works fully for people that are only in by being information in their ecosystem, right.

spk_0 Because they see the reports about how these cities are in turmoil and in crisis and they see positive reports from Christina and all these people defending what they're doing.

spk_0 If you're outside of that bubble you see a mix, right. You see what these guys are claiming you see the local leader saying that this is ridiculous.

spk_0 You see footage of Portland and Chicago being normal places. Yes, there are areas where there have been like a few blocks of protests even unruly and protest that have turned chaotic and even violent.

spk_0 But for the most part of course this is ridiculous. And so then you end up with like the the Vigmast majority of Americans in these polling saying look, I don't support this.

spk_0 I certainly wouldn't want it in my city, right. They may not trust Democrats to enforce either immigration laws or to be strong on crime right they see Democrats as weak.

spk_0 That's in the CBS poll, but they certainly don't want this correction.

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spk_0 All right, let's turn to Warravaged Portland where Trump announced at the end of September he was deploying troops to use quote full force if necessary against protests outside a single ice facility that haven't involved more than 20 people since June.

spk_0 There been about 20 people outside this one ice facility since the end of June, like a couple weeks in June it was pretty unruly but and I know that because it's in the court document.

spk_0 It's in the ruling that we're going to talk about.

spk_0 So like governor Pritzker, governor Tina Koteck opposed the deployment of the Oregon National Guard and sued the Trump administration on Saturday.

spk_0 A federal judge agreed to block the deployment at least temporarily saying the Trump's claims about violent unrest in the city are quote simply untethered to the facts and that quote.

spk_0 The plaintiffs are likely to succeed on their claim that the president exceeded his constitutional authority and violated the 10th amendment.

spk_0 The 10th amendment for those who don't know is if it's not explicitly spelled out in the constitution as a power and authority that the federal government has those authorities are they go to the states the states have.

spk_0 And the people, John, the people and the fucking people that's us.

spk_0 Yeah, the judge also said quote, this is a nation of constitutional law, not martial law should note here that this radical left Marxist judge Karen Imurgat was appointed in 2019 by Donald Trump.

spk_0 The White House then tried to get around the ruling by sending troops from California to Oregon instead.

spk_0 Texas is also trying to send troops to Portland. Judge Imurgat didn't think this move was all that clever. She wasn't too happy about this and she held a second emergency hearing on Sunday night where she clarified that no guard troops from any state could be deployed to Portland for the time being.

spk_0 The administration appealed that ruling to the ninth circuit as of this recording we are waiting for them to rule.

spk_0 Trump had some choice words about Portland and the judge.

spk_0 Let's listen. Portland is is on fire. Portland has been on fire for years and that's so much saving it.

spk_0 We have to save something else because I think that's all insurrection.

spk_0 You look at what's happened with Portland over the years. It's it's a burning hell hall and then you have a judge that lost her way that tries to pretend that like there's no problem.

spk_0 She lost her way. She lost her way. Trump also said on Sunday that he only nominated Imurgat in his first term because he got bad advice.

spk_0 What did you guys make of her ruling and Trump's reaction?

spk_0 He doesn't know why he nominated her. He doesn't mean he's like whatever.

spk_0 I'll list he approved the came across his dad.

spk_0 Yeah. Leo Littman did a great video breaking down what happened in Portland with this ruling on the strict scrutiny YouTube. I highly highly recommend it.

spk_0 But in that video she made the point that sending one state's national guard to another state is basically an administration orchestrated civil war.

spk_0 And I think that's how we should see this. And you know as you mentioned like the judge in this case could not have been more scathing.

spk_0 You can see these protesters their videos are all over Twitter. It is like 20 people.

spk_0 A lot of them are old. People are in Halloween costumes.

spk_0 There's a chicken suit. There's a dude dressed like like a Yoshi or something like it's it's look that the monitors are involved.

spk_0 Right. Right. Right. Back in June some shit went down. But like when people are violent they should be arrested. But like the idea that the Portland cops couldn't handle that is crazy.

spk_0 If people say mean things, guess what? That's protected speech. And that's how it goes. I talked to Ben Smith about this.

spk_0 I do wonder if like comments like what we just saw do stem from his information bubble because in Trump's world on true social it's all adulation.

spk_0 And like Antifa videos from 2020 of people throwing you know bricks through Starbucks windows.

spk_0 And the reality is very different. And but like either way the suggestion that ice can't do their jobs in Portland without a national guard deployment is ludicrous on its face.

spk_0 The Trump judge said as much. And like it's I can't even believe we're talking about this.

spk_0 I also think that it was in Ben's piece on this on Trump's media filter bubble. It's the people around him too. Right. And so they know what his media diet is.

spk_0 And so Stephen Miller is telling him things are so much worse than they are. And you know Ben brought up that quote that Trump told organs governor in late September.

spk_0 Am I watching things on television that are different from what's happening? My people tell me different. Which I kind of believe.

spk_0 There is there is a moment to where where in one press conference code talks about talking to Trump and Trump's like well we'll just keep talking right. He's very kind of like convivial on the phone.

spk_0 The ruling by the way like it's like just I recommend reading at least excerpts of it. It's like a beautiful piece of logic. And it's actually pretty conservative.

spk_0 It goes through the case methodically and not with any kind of grand hyperbole. But it just starts from principle. And what I appreciate about it is two things.

spk_0 One uses these exact kind of words from Trump against him where she she basically says this is not a good faith. Look at how he's describing Portland.

spk_0 That is not accurate. That is not what's happening on the ground. And the other part of it is you know there's been a lot of question about how deferential courts have to be to trump these words.

spk_0 They're not to find insurrection rebellion right. And she's very careful of saying yes the president gets a great deal of difference. Of course.

spk_0 But difference is not equivalent to ignoring the facts on the ground. And I do think that's really important because even if you are being deferential to the president.

spk_0 No like you do not to be so open-minded that your brain falls out of your head. There's no invasion. There's no rebellion. There's no insurrection. The laws are still operating. The courts are still operating.

spk_0 This is ridiculous on its face. And you can be deferential to the executive on these matters without giving into that. It's just a very careful argument including asking us to whether or not this fits into a permitted range of honest judgment.

spk_0 Which by the way is not just about this law. It's also about the insurrection act, which I know we're going to talk about, but I do think is important.

spk_0 Well, clearly this is all like the brainchild of Stephen Miller who by all accounts is the person actually running the federal government.

spk_0 He went a bit further than Trump in a series of tweets over the weekend that sound like a fascist chatbot. He used the term quote legal insurrection called the decision one of the most egregious and thunderous,

spk_0 thunderous violations of the constitutional order we have ever seen. And an attempt to quote nullify the 2024 election by Fiat. He also claimed that there's a large organized movement of quote left wing terrorism being shielded by far left Democrat judges, prosecutors and attorneys general.

spk_0 The only remedy is to use legitimate state power to dismantle terrorism and terror networks. He just he was on a fucking tear. He called Sam Stein repugnant.

spk_0 Sam Stein like the least repugnant who just basically quotes we did the legal insurrection quote was like what a thing to say on a Saturday night. He's like you are repugnant or a fucking representative dangoldman broken clock.

spk_0 We were we were all watching in our office, Stephen Miller on doing this CNN interview earlier today. And he does every interview from the kind of a weird angle.

spk_0 He has this shrieking shrill like a grieved tone. It's just like so clearly a performance. And it's remarkable to watch Stephen Miller rant and rave about domestic terrorism and nullifying the result of an election when like the clearest act of domestic terrorism in his country's recent history with January 6th and he defends that like I assume this is the continuation of the post Charlie Kirk rhetoric where they are trying to build a conspiracy that will allow them to pull in like funders and progressive groups and say that they're somehow providing material support for terrorists.

spk_0 And you know go after like the Soros foundation, the Ford foundation or like center for American progress or whatever groups that they decide are their enemies, but it's it's it's reasonable. It's laughable.

spk_0 After all of those tweets from Stephen Miller and the interview that we saw today in the office. He tweeted something just now that he accused Democrats of raving histrionics.

spk_0 Okay. It's yeah, that it's unbelievable, right? Like that that if you refer if you refer to any of this as fascist, you're inciting violence. Meanwhile, the left is an organized terror movement.

spk_0 Our opponents are in enemy within the cities are war zones and a training ground for the military judges who are against us are legal insurrectionists. And by the way, these are just facts. And if you don't see that, you're the one that's being emotional. Yeah, it's like it like I can't tell what to make of like Steve look.

spk_0 There are all kinds of members of the administration that are saying, you know, Kristinaum kind of is extreme.

spk_0 There's all different versions of this, but see the Miller does stand apart. I think in the rhetoric that he's using in the extremism and the language he's using.

spk_0 And I really can't tell like is he like going to is he the boy who cried terrorism, right? Is he like making this all feel less real even to his own side, right? Like is it all feel like it's not going to lead to anything or is this or or and or is this just a preview of things to come that now it all feels so crazy.

spk_0 And then all of a sudden they start treating these as facts and go from there, including insure like calling the judges insurrectionists is not an accident.

spk_0 The language apart from being extreme and and very fascia sounding is also like there's a lot of legal lease in there in that he is I think what when you say is it a sign of things to come. It's what he wants to have happen.

spk_0 And he is the one who continues to push the envelope in within the administration, I think, right?

spk_0 So remember, he floated that getting rid of habeas corpus and then sort of like he keeps he keeps pushing and pushing and pushing.

spk_0 And I think that's what this is about, right, which is every time a judge rules against them, even if it's a Trump judge. Now it's legal insurrection. We got to go after the judges.

spk_0 Every time a Democrat says every time there's a protest out there, it's Democrat violence, it's left wing terrorism, all this kind of stuff. So he's he's trying to set the predicate for much more extreme action.

spk_0 Right. But then and he knows the bounds of what he it is rhetorical because he knows the bounds of where he's not getting ahead of Trump because actually one of these interviews.

spk_0 He's responding to a question about whether he should be if the president should be ignoring or breaking the the rulings that judges say and he goes, no, I'm just saying factually accurate things.

spk_0 I'm just saying I'm just saying what the facts are and these are legal insurrections, but that know is pretty important, right? But he's not getting ahead of the president on that.

spk_0 Well, notably in the oval on Monday, Trump called what's happening in Portland insurrection. And when asked said he would invoke the insurrection act if quote,

spk_0 people were being killed and courts were holding us up or governors or mayors were holding us up.

spk_0 That's quite a range of activities that was I know I know anyone explain like what's going on with the insurrection act and how it's different than what's been happening so far.

spk_0 I mean, look, there's the legal scholars for a long time have said the insurrection act is ridiculously broad and needs to be reformed.

spk_0 Just missed it.

spk_0 Yeah, that's a real bummer again, can't even the government is closed right now. So couldn't do that.

spk_0 Yeah, let alone reforming the insurrection.

spk_0 Not not our biggest obstacle, but that's like when I was when gay marriage wasn't legal, like that wasn't my obstacle to marriage in the same way.

spk_0 But they're multiple parts of the insurrection act. Some of them require state bias. Some of them don't. Some of them are broader than others. Some of them are not.

spk_0 I don't want to like play down the dangers of the president of looking at the insurrection act. At the same time, if you go back and look at the warnings of how president could use the insurrection act warnings from 2022, 2021, right?

spk_0 What you find is a description of what Trump is already doing. And it seems like what they like is the idea of signaling the insurrection act to some like final boss for the lips.

spk_0 Yeah, right. But it's not. And the other part of this in Brandon Center talks about this legal scholars talk about this.

spk_0 There is no martial law in this country, even if there's military in our streets, you still have your constitutional rights. Those do not go away.

spk_0 And the court has helped that. The idea that the insurrection act is sort of beyond traditional views. It's not true.

spk_0 Like I'm not saying it's a great day. But the as I said, the ruling from that judge on the president deploying national guard references the ruling that says there are limits on the invocation of the insurrection act as well.

spk_0 So it's scary, but like it's not some get out of court free card for them.

spk_0 Yeah, no, they're just so horny to declare martial law like Elon Musk was tweeting over the weekend that we need to bouquet lay the court system here and what that means is basically throw out any independent judges pack the courts with loyalists.

spk_0 And then declare what bouquet they called a state of exception of you called a state of emergency here where they just suspended due process and through people indiscriminately in jail with no charges some for life.

spk_0 So that's what Elon Musk is advocating for on Twitter.

spk_0 There is a difference between what Trump has already been doing with the troops and what he could do theoretically with the insurrection act is you remember when the troops were here in LA.

spk_0 They were only guarding the federal buildings. And if you listen to Miller and some people in the administration, they're saying, well, we're just saying them into guard the ice facilities to guard the ice facilities protect the ice facilities because they're federal buildings.

spk_0 And so what he's trying to do now is basically say he's deploying troops to defend federal buildings and only to be on to defend things.

spk_0 And it's not offensive. They're not supposed to be able to do law enforcement activities.

spk_0 The insurrection act theoretically allows them to do law enforcement activities.

spk_0 So that would be the difference. But like you said, while there may not be much courts can do to review the invocation of the insurrection act, the manner in which it is carried out is definitely reviewable.

spk_0 Meaning that like they can't you can't just suddenly have troops in the streets arresting Americans and throwing their rights out.

spk_0 I also would just say like I've seen that distinction and maybe that could turn out to be very important. But if you look at the way in which Stephen Miller and others are describing what they're already allowed to do, they've actually left behind the idea that they're just guarding buildings because now they can be there in support of law enforcement operations.

spk_0 But they're defending the federal agents. And they get attacked.

spk_0 Yes, of course.

spk_0 That's the that's the finery that they're hanging it.

spk_0 Yes, but even still it's like, okay, they are they are hiring vast numbers of new ice agents. That will be the vanguard for all of this.

spk_0 We're talking about a distinction. Okay, the insurrection act invoked you have troops, but without the radicalized ice agents with them is that better? Is that worse?

spk_0 Like I do think they think they probably think that the the political impact of saying insurrection act is probably worse for them.

spk_0 Yeah, all I'm saying is that like we've already gone so far. I don't think anyone knows what would mean for the president to invoke the insurrection act, but we already have troops on the ground, not just to defend federal buildings, but anywhere there's ice, which is everywhere.

spk_0 Well, let's talk politics because back when it was L A and D C, you know, there were all these warnings. This could be good politics for Trump. I remember there was a D C.

spk_0 There was a lot of like Democrats are walking into Donald Trump's trap. He wants to make everything about crime. And here we go.

spk_0 New CBS pull over the weekend shows 58% of voters disapprove of the guard deployments. They also asked, you know, do you support sending active military to cities?

spk_0 Only 39% said yes, 61% know, including 70% of independent said no, even one in five Republican said no.

spk_0 What do you guys think about the politics of all this?

spk_0 Yeah, the immigration handling was only at 45 approved, 55 disapprove, and the deploying National Guard was 4258.

spk_0 Overall, his polling is just around this 42% approval number. It hasn't really budged for like a decade now.

spk_0 You know what I mean? I'm a little skeptical. We'll get to this in the shutdown too. I'm a little skeptical of some of these under the hood numbers.

spk_0 I just like think most people aren't paying attention. I don't think this is necessarily like I don't think the images of what we're seeing in Chicago of like tear gas and cops and brutalizing kids and random people is like a good political message for them.

spk_0 I don't. I guess there was another number there, which is like they did most important issue. And crime was only at 9%.

spk_0 And it was fought, you know, ahead of crime was immigration, then health care, then inflation, then economy, the most important.

spk_0 So his whole goal of making this about fighting crime, which he started to do at least a little bit in DC, it just hasn't worked. That's not what people think this is.

spk_0 Yeah, and I do think to Tommy's point, he's kind of been stuck in the same place for a long time.

spk_0 You look at this CBS poll and most people, if you were Republicans as extreme and strong and Democrats as weak.

spk_0 Number one word number one word is weak. And so maybe they don't like this, but they don't trust us.

spk_0 And so we think it's bad for him, but maybe it reflects a weakness on us as well.

spk_0 By the same token, every image of Trump and talking about how we're going to liberate the city of Chicago and Christine Ohm saying they wouldn't let me do a deployment of a facility that I needed to get into.

spk_0 Is another moment where Trump is not talking about any issue that people cared about this poll had 75% of people saying Trump is not focusing on lowering prices enough, which is correct.

spk_0 And like a pretty devastating problem for him that is not solved by more attention on these issues, even if this issue is better for him than others.

spk_0 Yeah, it's in some sense they may they might not care. The least they're acting like they don't care, right? That the politics are bad. They're just like forging right ahead.

spk_0 I mean, we're still you know, it's important to debate politics in regard to like what Democrats should do. I think in the Trump administration's mind they're like, you know, somewhat concerned about the politics.

spk_0 Clearly, when they win the midterms, but when you get to people like Stephen Miller, he's like, no, I just want to just deploy force.

spk_0 Yeah, scare people like I don't give a fuck about the politics. I really think that's for some of them. That's what they think.

spk_0 I also honestly think that they have a kind of deeper and smarter relationship to like polling than a lot of Democrats do because they understand that you can lose on specific issues and specific questions for a long time while building up credibility in a broader way in a deeper way that's harder to measure.

spk_0 And like I just how have they not been validated by that over the years. So that's that's what I think is part of this.

spk_0 Yeah, it's going to take an election or two for them to at least some of them to register that this is not popular.

spk_0 Last thing before we got to the shutdown, no, I took the time on Friday to join Magas war against bad bunny as the Super Bowl halftime show saying ice will be quote all over the Super Bowl and not necessarily seeming to know that people from Puerto Rico, which bad bunny is from Puerto Rico, are American.

spk_0 And she shares that with many, many Trump supporters of Trump influencers, they seem to not know that Puerto Rico is part of America and they think that bad bunny is not US citizen.

spk_0 It's like on some level like they know it intellectually, but they can't feel it in their bones. Right? They know it every time. It's in there. That's stupid. They know it. They don't feel it. Feel true.

spk_0 There's also a very funny Shane Gillis comedian, his reaction to this, this whole latest culture or thing around bad bunny. The Super Bowl is quite funny.

spk_0 I'll tell you what I'm at about bad bunnies doing the halftime show. That's good. Pissing me though. Of course, of course, who gives a. It's very funny to me that people were upset about that.

spk_0 Everyone said the right, the right gets it so wrong with what they're outraged. Everybody's outraged about everything. Obviously, but when it's like, you don't lose on this one.

spk_0 Why are you having a bad? I think it's because he doesn't speak any speak English.

spk_0 We're trying to laugh at football. You.

spk_0 It's like, who does Kristi know and think attends the Super Bowl? She think it's a bunch of Venezuelan migrants who left everything behind and just like made his United States.

spk_0 They're like 10 grand sitting around to buy a ticket to go to go to Santa Clara to leave by stadium to go to the game.

spk_0 This is all because of a question from that Bozo Benny Johnson at TPUSA to Kristi Nome. Kind of like kicked off this manufactured culture war thing.

spk_0 Benny suggested that the selection of bad bunny was clearly a shot at MAGA. It was a disrespect to MAGA and not the obvious answer, which is money.

spk_0 The NFL wants to grow the audience. So they had a big artist who might expand the number of people who watched the Super Bowl perform at the Super Bowl.

spk_0 It's so clearly what's happening here. And like bigger picture though, it's hard to imagine a more MAGA crowd than those who physically attend the Super Bowl.

spk_0 It's like football fans. Rich people like if you're worried about crimes in that crowd like get some dogs that can smell cocaine and then go bust people for solicitations.

spk_0 Hey, hey, nice rate. Let's not let's not say things will regret. I'm not going to be a little bit here too is clearly a lot of xenophobia and racism in this.

spk_0 I don't know if you guys know that,

spk_0 but I will also say there are plenty of,

spk_0 especially after 24, like prominent Latino Trump supporters now.

spk_0 And if the person performing at the Super Bowl

spk_0 was Latino and speak Spanish,

spk_0 but was like a big Trump fan,

spk_0 it would have been, you wouldn't hear anything.

spk_0 Bad Bunny has criticized eyes, has criticized Trump,

spk_0 I specifically, and so it is,

spk_0 it's like if you are disloyal in any way,

spk_0 if they cannot broach any criticism, any dissent whatsoever.

spk_0 And if there is, and it's a prominent person,

spk_0 then it is full war against those,

spk_0 they talk to, no about this,

spk_0 and I think Benny Johnson asked like,

spk_0 well what do you think about the NFL's decision?

spk_0 She says they suck and will win.

spk_0 God will bless us and we'll stand

spk_0 and be proud of ourselves at the end of the day,

spk_0 and they won't be able to sleep at night

spk_0 because they don't know what to believe.

spk_0 Jesus.

spk_0 They're so weak, we will win and fix it.

spk_0 This is about the NFL.

spk_0 We're talking about that.

spk_0 It's also like, there's something like,

spk_0 what are you fucking, it's just a performer?

spk_0 I just, these people cannot, God will bless us.

spk_0 They cannot internalize the fact that they're winners.

spk_0 They're winners because it's grievance politics.

spk_0 And so they, that's, you know.

spk_0 They can't actually just, like imagine,

spk_0 Christy, you know what I'm saying?

spk_0 I'm not a fan, he said some stuff I don't agree with,

spk_0 but the NFL is free to do what it wants.

spk_0 It's like, it's inconceivable for them at this point

spk_0 to like, brook any kind of dissent.

spk_0 Like, you say, you, you go, say, all right,

spk_0 like the media is, look,

spk_0 you just got, you got CBS, you know, CBS belongs to you.

spk_0 You have Twitter, you have social media, you have a lot of,

spk_0 you have a lot of the NFL's fucking fans.

spk_0 There's a, there's a halftime show.

spk_0 Is there not one thing for the fucking gays and days?

spk_0 Just muted.

spk_0 It's not Gaga, you know?

spk_0 You realize, you realize, yeah, there's gonna be

spk_0 an alternative halftime show on fucking rumble or something.

spk_0 No, it's a PSA, there's some pitch

spk_0 that was going around of like, TBOA having to creed.

spk_0 Yeah, well, I didn't see that.

spk_0 I thought Benny Johnson was gonna do something

spk_0 for only the fans.

spk_0 He's gonna do an only, something for only America fans.

spk_0 Something like that, only fans of America.

spk_0 Something like that.

spk_0 Yeah, I'm out.

spk_0 I'm out.

spk_0 I don't know, I don't get it.

spk_0 Oh.

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spk_0 So the federal government's still closed,

spk_0 which is somehow only the second biggest story right now,

spk_0 because of everything we just talked about.

spk_0 Since Alex and Dan covered it on the Friday pod,

spk_0 Republicans and Democrats in Congress have made no progress

spk_0 on negotiations to open the government,

spk_0 with Republicans maintaining their refusal

spk_0 to discuss affordable care act subsidies

spk_0 until the government reopens.

spk_0 The White House has been trying to put pressure on Democrats

spk_0 by continuing to threaten mass layoffs of federal employees

spk_0 that it's unclear,

spk_0 wonder if that will actually happen.

spk_0 They're also trying to cut funding for blue areas

spk_0 of the country, whether it's apparently,

spk_0 did you see the thing with a lot,

spk_0 they cut law enforcement in New York City?

spk_0 And then,

spk_0 I was not aware of this.

spk_0 Yeah, and then Hokel, governor Hokel called Trump,

spk_0 and he was like, again, the filter bug was like,

spk_0 oh, I didn't know this.

spk_0 And then he reversed it.

spk_0 So they're trying to cause all this trouble,

spk_0 hurt all these people.

spk_0 It's also unclear though whether Trump is not only

spk_0 on the same page as his staff,

spk_0 but on the same page as Republicans in terms of

spk_0 whether they should negotiate with Democrats

spk_0 or are negotiating with Democrats.

spk_0 Here's what Trump said in the oval on Monday

spk_0 about the shutdown.

spk_0 If the vote today fails in the Senate,

spk_0 will that trigger layoffs?

spk_0 It could at some point it will.

spk_0 Would you make a deal with them on the ACA subsidies?

spk_0 If we made the right deal, I'd make a deal, should.

spk_0 To see a deal made for great health care.

spk_0 Yeah, I want to see great health,

spk_0 I'm a Republican, but I want to see healthcare

spk_0 much more so than the Democrats.

spk_0 Are you speaking with Democrats?

spk_0 I don't know if they're speaking with Democrats.

spk_0 Well, I don't want to say that.

spk_0 I don't want to say that,

spk_0 but we are speaking with the Democrats

spk_0 and some very good things could happen

spk_0 with respect to healthcare.

spk_0 What do you want to bet?

spk_0 He was thinking about Hamas.

spk_0 I'm just confused with him.

spk_0 Just like he's the GOG.

spk_0 To be a fly on the wall and doons office

spk_0 or Johnson's office when they saw that clip.

spk_0 Yeah, it's a guy's.

spk_0 Oh my God, fucking dammit.

spk_0 Oh.

spk_0 Schumer responded by saying,

spk_0 it isn't true the Democrats have been talking to Trump.

spk_0 Jeffrey said the same thing,

spk_0 but Schumer said that if the president is,

spk_0 quote, finally ready to work with Democrats,

spk_0 we'll be at the table.

spk_0 What do you think Trump was doing there?

spk_0 Typical stream of consciousness moment, nonsense.

spk_0 Or do you think he might want to negotiate on healthcare

spk_0 more than Republicans in Congress?

spk_0 So first of all, it's funny to be like,

spk_0 what page is he on?

spk_0 He's not on a pitch.

spk_0 That's the first.

spk_0 He's all over the place.

spk_0 I will say like that.

spk_0 There's been a lot of debate about like,

spk_0 are Democrats doing better in the shutdown

spk_0 than people expect?

spk_0 There's reasons for optimism,

spk_0 reason not to be optimism.

spk_0 This was the best reason for optimism I've seen

spk_0 because whatever he's thinking,

spk_0 whatever's going on,

spk_0 he is feeling the politics around a shutdown

spk_0 that is now over healthcare

spk_0 and he's really helping making that true.

spk_0 He's acknowledging that.

spk_0 He said it because I think it's about healthcare.

spk_0 And like that was part of it.

spk_0 We didn't get through that part,

spk_0 but they first asked him.

spk_0 What do you think the shutdown's about healthcare?

spk_0 Pretty valuable, pretty great.

spk_0 And it's also a reminder that like Trump

spk_0 is interested in Trump.

spk_0 When that means standing shoulder to shoulder

spk_0 with Republicans in Congress,

spk_0 he will do that if he views his interests

spk_0 as being different.

spk_0 He will throw, he will ignore them,

spk_0 the damage their position.

spk_0 He doesn't give a fuck.

spk_0 He doesn't have ideological commitments.

spk_0 He just wants a good deal and to seem like a winner

spk_0 and to have as many people behind him as possible.

spk_0 So that's what I took from that.

spk_0 What it could it lead to anything?

spk_0 Well, immediately you have, you know,

spk_0 Johnson and Thune figuring out how to get out

spk_0 of this leading to anything.

spk_0 And then you have Schumer and Jeffrey saying,

spk_0 no, we're not talking to Trump,

spk_0 but saying they're open to it.

spk_0 So I assume once this conversation,

spk_0 once Trump was done talking, the phone was already on,

spk_0 was already wrong and they're already been

spk_0 walked back internally at least.

spk_0 Yeah, I, I, I sort of the same reaction you did is like,

spk_0 he wants to be the hero of every story.

spk_0 Yeah, he wants, he does not want a huge cut

spk_0 to ACA subsidies that he thinks would hurt him

spk_0 politically in the midterm.

spk_0 He's not Paul Ryan.

spk_0 Like this guy hasn't been dreaming

spk_0 of cutting the social safety nets

spk_0 since he was at the keg party,

spk_0 whatever that weird quote was from 2012.

spk_0 And so like if Schumer and Jeffries could just

spk_0 talk to him directly and try to cut a deal,

spk_0 that I, he would ice out speaker Johnson in a heartbeat,

spk_0 which is, but to our earlier conversation

spk_0 about his filter bubble and the people around him,

spk_0 the reason I think it's less likely to lead to anything

spk_0 is at what other point is he going to get information

spk_0 that Schumer and Jeffries want to make a deal

spk_0 that the polling is really bad on health care,

spk_0 that it's time for him to do so.

spk_0 Like there, you know, Stephen Miller's going to walk in there

spk_0 and all the rest of them and a bright bar online poll

spk_0 of like Twitter users on Twitter.

spk_0 I mean, Jeffries and Schumer are going to have to do a paper drop

spk_0 like it's North Korea.

spk_0 Like they're trying to get information to peon.

spk_0 So the giant speakers, that's not a lot.

spk_0 You mentioned all the, you know, the back and forth

spk_0 by like who's winning this?

spk_0 What did you guys make of the polling so far?

spk_0 There were some of these questions in the CBS poll.

spk_0 I would characterize the CBS poll as like mixed to positive

spk_0 for Democrats.

spk_0 I think I characterize all the polling like that,

spk_0 but I don't know, what do you guys think?

spk_0 I, here's what I think.

spk_0 I think the polling is good.

spk_0 If you thought Democrats were going to be blamed,

spk_0 the way Republicans were blamed in a previous shutdown.

spk_0 If you didn't come to it with that knowledge,

spk_0 I don't know, you'd feel super great about a poll that says,

spk_0 Trump congressional Republicans and congressional Dems

spk_0 all are around 30% in their approval

spk_0 for other handling a government shutdown.

spk_0 Like a poll where half the country thinks

spk_0 they're making a mistake.

spk_0 And by the way, only half of Democrats think your position

spk_0 is worth a shutdown.

spk_0 Like I think that's better than it could be.

spk_0 And I think we're in a better position than we should be.

spk_0 And then Republicans should be at, but it's not like great.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 I mean, the big takeaway is people don't like the shutdown.

spk_0 They're worried it will hurt the economy.

spk_0 A big majority is worried.

spk_0 It'll hurt the economy.

spk_0 I'm a little skeptical when you start comparing

spk_0 like under the hood numbers, like who do you blame?

spk_0 Because I just think most people don't have an opinion on it,

spk_0 but it's a little better.

spk_0 Like the Democratic Party's rationale is a little better

spk_0 than Republicans.

spk_0 Nine points, by about nine points,

spk_0 people blame Republicans over Democrats.

spk_0 So that's good.

spk_0 But then the thing that, like in that poll

spk_0 that would worry me if I was Trump is 75% of voters

spk_0 say you're not focused enough on lowering prices.

spk_0 Like that's bad.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 We know there are probably a handful,

spk_0 if not more Senate Democrats who were worried

spk_0 about making this decision kind of thought they had to do it

spk_0 because the base was mad.

spk_0 I think if you're looking at the polling now,

spk_0 you'd say at the very least it was right to say,

spk_0 I'm not voting for this funding bill.

spk_0 And now that we're in it, now you got to stick.

spk_0 Now you got to stick to it.

spk_0

spk_0 So there's definitely nothing this polling

spk_0 that would tell me if I was a Senate Democrat to like cave.

spk_0 Anytime soon.

spk_0 So it is, I think, going well for them.

spk_0 I still, and look, good thing if premiums don't go up.

spk_0 For sure, right?

spk_0 I think at best you're not going to get a permanent extension.

spk_0 You're going to get an extension that is qualified

spk_0 with, he's probably not as generous as it was.

spk_0 And then surely for the time,

spk_0 we'll probably like take them right past the midterms.

spk_0 I do have this fear that Democrats will have done the right thing,

spk_0 stand up, help people with health care,

spk_0 and then help Trump take it off the table.

spk_0

spk_0 You know, honestly, we've tried losing on issues for a while.

spk_0 Maybe we try winning for one.

spk_0 It's better than losing.

spk_0 The other thing I would say, I would go further than just to say,

spk_0 like, oh, Democrats should and cave.

spk_0 I like, you look at this and we talked about briefly earlier,

spk_0 but like, if you ask people, 64% think Democrats are weak

spk_0 and 59% think Republicans are extreme.

spk_0 Health care is an issue right now where if you hold the line,

spk_0 like we are painting Republicans as extreme.

spk_0 And if we cave, we are giving into the idea that we are weak.

spk_0 If we hold the line, there's an issue

spk_0 where we can prove our bonafida, say that we fought for something.

spk_0 Maybe we win, maybe we don't.

spk_0 But I would risk, the benefits on policy,

spk_0 plus like proving to people that we're willing to fight,

spk_0 take a stand and actually get something for people.

spk_0 Like, I think that is worth taking an issue off the table.

spk_0 Maybe that's bad politics.

spk_0 I don't think anybody knows, but given that nobody knows,

spk_0 wouldn't we rather like have a win than not?

spk_0 Am I wrong?

spk_0 I know, I agree with you.

spk_0 Yeah, I just don't see a path,

spk_0 like, I don't see a path to getting a win in this negotiation.

spk_0 I think that's the hard part.

spk_0 There's no end game that's clear here.

spk_0 And like nut cutting time is coming on October 15th,

spk_0 1.3 million members of the US military will miss a paycheck.

spk_0 And November 1st is open enrollment for Obamacare.

spk_0 So there's a bunch of like challenging moments

spk_0 where like this could really go from a thing

spk_0 that's like, maybe you heard about on the news or saw on your TikTok

spk_0 to a thing that's like messing up your life

spk_0 and making you really mad.

spk_0 Coming from the other direction,

spk_0 there's also the fact that these notices

spk_0 from insurance companies are going out too.

spk_0 So it could be, and you're sort of seeing this in the polling

spk_0 that if you talk to the average person

spk_0 about who's faulted is like all of them.

spk_0 They're not stuck.

spk_0 And now the premium increases to the quote

spk_0 and now the troops aren't getting paid.

spk_0 And the feeling in the public could be,

spk_0 they have to negotiate and figure something out.

spk_0 Which is probably good for Democrats getting something

spk_0 at that point, as opposed to just caving.

spk_0 And then maybe the Republicans,

spk_0 if they're getting some of the blame too,

spk_0 then maybe Trump's like, you know what guys?

spk_0 Just figure it out.

spk_0 Just give them some kind of short extension.

spk_0 And let's just call it because we don't want to get blamed.

spk_0 They're getting blamed.

spk_0 It's not helping anyone.

spk_0 Yeah, I also like, there's a lot.

spk_0 So that's the only, that's like my optimistic case.

spk_0 But I also take it, take your point.

spk_0 Yeah, I don't think we know what's going to,

spk_0 what the world's going to feel like a week from now.

spk_0 I was like, right now, like there's a lot of alarms

spk_0 not going off.

spk_0 Like I am a, like Democrats feel like they're on offense

spk_0 or Republicans feel like they're on defense.

spk_0 That is like the feeling when you look at like the stories

spk_0 coming out of the lack of negotiation.

spk_0 You have Mike Johnson saying, if a,

spk_0 if a deal comes from the Senate side,

spk_0 we won't take it up, which is something you have to say

spk_0 to kind of like guard your flank

spk_0 against something coming out of the Senate.

spk_0 Like there's just a Trump taking these questions

spk_0 and saying he's open to a deal.

spk_0 So all of that puts Thune and Johnson on defense

spk_0 in a way that like, I think is like, you know,

spk_0 shows Democrats playing a pretty weak hand

spk_0 better than you would have thought a week ago.

spk_0 So where will we a week?

spk_0 I have no idea.

spk_0 I think, I think they should ask for more at this point.

spk_0 Oh, I mean, it's, having seen, I know I've made this point

spk_0 before, but it's just driving me nuts.

spk_0 Having seen, and maybe it's, I'm just crazy,

spk_0 but like having seen the last weekend unfold, like,

spk_0 there is a way, I wouldn't even do it with the troops,

spk_0 but it's just like, ice should be able to go about

spk_0 and do their jobs and do immigration enforcement,

spk_0 but like, you need warrants, no more,

spk_0 just like rating fucking apartment buildings,

spk_0 no flashbang grenades and militarized assaults.

spk_0 Like you could put all this stuff,

spk_0 that there's plenty of ice reform proposals out there.

spk_0 You could make, you could put it in a bill

spk_0 and demand that shit.

spk_0 And I get why they have not done that,

spk_0 but it is still really off to me that this is happening

spk_0 and then the funding fight is about healthcare.

spk_0 Yeah, I like, I go, we've gone back up

spk_0 over a million times, but I like, I look at this

spk_0 and it's like, it's a core question, right?

spk_0 Do you want to pick a fight?

spk_0 You have a possibility of winning

spk_0 or are you trying to pick a fight?

spk_0 You cannot win because you think it's important

spk_0 for the long term.

spk_0 And right now, we've, the Democrats chose, right?

spk_0 They chose the other, they chose the fight

spk_0 over something they could win.

spk_0 I, my view right now, is play that to the end.

spk_0 Try to get a win on healthcare.

spk_0 Let's prove to people we can fight and win.

spk_0 Like, you look at what happens with Kimmel, right?

spk_0 There's all these, there was a kind of almost organic protest

spk_0 and had a simple demand.

spk_0 Put Kimmel back, we'll get Disney plus again, right?

spk_0 And it's a win and it shows people

spk_0 that we're a political force.

spk_0 We got Kimmel.

spk_0 Well, it's small.

spk_0 I know.

spk_0 But in the face of kind of like, kind of a more,

spk_0 I know, I just sort of like, we have to be a political force

spk_0 that has power and leverage and that does mean like,

spk_0 we're not just casting about for a kind of a year's long fight.

spk_0 Like, we're gonna find a hinge and we're gonna use it.

spk_0 And like, to me, we've chosen that already,

spk_0 so let's play it out.

spk_0 Yeah, yeah, that's true.

spk_0 The other way this could end that I feel like

spk_0 as being under-discussed is if it keeps going,

spk_0 and going, and going, they just,

spk_0 they change the rules and get rid of the filibuster.

spk_0 Wait, I think I could do that.

spk_0 Again, make my day, yeah.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 Yeah. Go for it.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 Because, you know what, we're never getting 60 votes

spk_0 in the Senate as long as we're living.

spk_0 Well, they've already, they've already voted.

spk_0 So if we ever wanna, if we ever take power again,

spk_0 we ever wanna pass anything we're gonna need

spk_0 to get rid of the filibuster, so might as well do a force.

spk_0 They're already eroding a bit by bit

spk_0 while claiming it's still there anyway.

spk_0 For sure.

spk_0 So the only way to start making real progress here

spk_0 is winning the House back in 2026.

spk_0 That's at least the start of progress.

spk_0 And the first chance we get to help make that happen

spk_0 is actually just a month from now,

spk_0 because here in California, we'll be voting

spk_0 on only one ballot measure in the 2025

spk_0 off-year elections, Prop 50,

spk_0 which is Governor Newsom's initiative

spk_0 to temporarily suspend our nonpartisan congressional map

spk_0 so that Democrats can partially neutralize

spk_0 the partisan gerrymandering Trump ordered

spk_0 in states like Texas and Missouri

spk_0 to pick up more Republican seats.

spk_0 Ballots are already in the mail.

spk_0 Some of you, if you're in California,

spk_0 may have gotten yours already,

spk_0 or if you're a registered voter in California.

spk_0 And the drop boxes to return those ballots open today,

spk_0 October 7th, when you're hearing this podcast,

spk_0 early in-person voting starts on October 25th.

spk_0 What do you guys been seeing?

spk_0 How optimistic are you feeling?

spk_0 I mean, the Democrats, you've talked at the kind of

spk_0 Gavin Orbit, they feel like they're winning the argument

spk_0 and that they're up, but they're very worried

spk_0 about voter suppression.

spk_0 That could be like Trump messing

spk_0 with the Postmaster General about mail and ballot

spk_0 to be timidation of the voting booths.

spk_0 The real like X-Factor is there's a lawsuit

spk_0 in court right now challenging Texas's plan

spk_0 to redraw the maps, which is the reason

spk_0 Gavin is doing this in the first place.

spk_0 The thing, there's a scenario where the plaintiffs

spk_0 win a first judgment in that lawsuit

spk_0 that will almost certainly be overturned,

spk_0 but kind of complicates the argument

spk_0 because it looks like maybe Texas won't go forward

spk_0 during the period where Californians are voting.

spk_0 So that's always the way the tension of that ruling is.

spk_0 Well, yeah, it's just a way of saying,

spk_0 it's called my bluff, that happens.

spk_0 Just know that it's almost certainly,

spk_0 Texas is gonna happen, it's gonna happen.

spk_0 We might win one step in the process,

spk_0 but we're gonna lose long term,

spk_0 so we need to do this in California.

spk_0 So everyone vote yes on prop 50,

spk_0 get your ballots and do it soon.

spk_0 Yeah, and I would, yes, the polling has been reassuring,

spk_0 but also California's a big place that's hard to poll.

spk_0 And I like just worry about money coming in at the end.

spk_0 A bunch of like a dark money scare.

spk_0 A ton of mailers coming in.

spk_0 So I just saw a new coefficient poll,

spk_0 54% of California voters support the prop 50,

spk_0 36% opposed, and all the ad spending

spk_0 is having an effect to 51%

spk_0 so they were very familiar with prop 50,

spk_0 and obviously Democrats currently have a big spending edge.

spk_0 So that's good news, but also, again, it is a,

spk_0 talk about not being able to model an electorate,

spk_0 an off-year election where there's no statewide races,

spk_0 where there's candidates running for stuff.

spk_0 So you just have, and not even other ballot measures,

spk_0 so you have one ballot measure.

spk_0 So you have to remember, okay, the ballot's coming,

spk_0 I gotta fill it out, what is prop 50?

spk_0 It's just, tell your friends if you're living California,

spk_0 tell your friends, make sure you do it,

spk_0 put on your calendar, and tell at least five people

spk_0 in your life who live in California that this is coming,

spk_0 because I think it's really, really important.

spk_0 One more thing, the big focus of the prop 50 campaign

spk_0 is relational organizing,

spk_0 basically just talking to friends and people

spk_0 in your network about the issue,

spk_0 why they need to get out and vote for it,

spk_0 you can get all the info you need on that

spk_0 at votesaveamerica.com slash prop 50,

spk_0 Tommy, you understand that you're hosting a VSA event,

spk_0 next Wednesday the 15th,

spk_0 where everyone's gonna get together

spk_0 and reach out to their networks together.

spk_0 And that's in the action hub, you know?

spk_0 We're all gonna have relations with people.

spk_0 That's right, that's right.

spk_0 Stick around, you know what they end, you'll understand.

spk_0 So you're gonna get together and reach out to your networks.

spk_0 We're gonna get together and talk about it.

spk_0 What a cool way to talk about it.

spk_0 What a cool, that's cool.

spk_0 That's all ready?

spk_0 On the count of three, we're gonna reach out to our networks.

spk_0 So what we're gonna do, we're gonna hop on a live stream.

spk_0 We're gonna have some fun, hang out.

spk_0 We're gonna make it a good time.

spk_0 We're gonna text our friends in California

spk_0 to make sure they're voting against our prop 50.

spk_0 We know that friends, family, the best messengers.

spk_0 And you're doing this for the fans?

spk_0 Yeah, and then only the fans.

spk_0 Only the fans.

spk_0 And the cam will be on.

spk_0 We're going to make sure everyone understands

spk_0 the stakes involved here.

spk_0 It'll be important.

spk_0 What are you gonna wear on your feet, you think?

spk_0 Sandals?

spk_0 Oh, okay.

spk_0 Shoes.

spk_0 That's exciting.

spk_0 Can I quickly plug my Riyadh comedy festival first?

spk_0 Oh yeah.

spk_0 Hell yeah.

spk_0 Good show, you guys.

spk_0 It's good money.

spk_0 It's good money at the, well, yet, it's anniversary.

spk_0 Anyway, jump on the prop 50 live stream.

spk_0 It will be vote to america.com slash prop 50.

spk_0 It's really important.

spk_0 We gotta do this.

spk_0 So reach out to your friends.

spk_0 Where are we on whether we have the chance

spk_0 to sort of counter Texas and other states?

spk_0 Yes.

spk_0 So I talked to our buddy Brian Tyler Cohen about all this

spk_0 because he is way deep on all things redistricting

spk_0 and subscribe to Brian's YouTube if you want to learn more.

spk_0 So the states that are screwing us right now,

spk_0 Texas and Missouri, if California redistricts to Indiana,

spk_0 Ohio and Florida are preparing to screw us.

spk_0 So get excited for that.

spk_0 We then Democrats could retaliate in Illinois

spk_0 in Maryland and in longer term New York

spk_0 could make some changes, but that wouldn't go into place

spk_0 until 2028.

spk_0 Then if we win the governor's seats in Virginia and New Jersey,

spk_0 maybe we can do make some gains there.

spk_0 And then there's the states that are kind of hoping

spk_0 this conversation goes away are Colorado or again

spk_0 in Washington, the DEM governors there just like won't step up

spk_0 seemingly.

spk_0 So that's the state of play.

spk_0 I don't think it's a net benefit for us

spk_0 if all those Republican states go though.

spk_0 Also one issue that's having California too

spk_0 is look redistricting is great,

spk_0 but also states like California have been losing population

spk_0 to Texas and Florida and others.

spk_0 And we can't redistrict our way out of California

spk_0 not building enough affordable housing.

spk_0 And so I'm very glad Gavin is pursuing Prop 50.

spk_0 He has not yet signed as of this recording

spk_0 on Monday night, SB 79, which allow people

spk_0 to build more housing near transit

spk_0 and help address our housing crisis.

spk_0 So if you were hearing this and you think

spk_0 I have a new system should sign it,

spk_0 I would suggest posting about it or giving him a call

spk_0 because I do think it matters here in the home stretch.

spk_0 What's going on there?

spk_0 I haven't been following why he, there's been a pause

spk_0 and he hasn't signed it.

spk_0 So there's a lot of pressure especially from LA,

spk_0 especially from our mayor Karen Bass,

spk_0 who wants new system to veto it.

spk_0 She claims she's for affordable housing

spk_0 and we've got to build more housing,

spk_0 but this law will go too far

spk_0 and it doesn't allow for historical buildings

spk_0 in all these exceptions.

spk_0 Los Angeles currently is not even on track

spk_0 to build half of the housing we've promised to build.

spk_0 The state's actually about a third.

spk_0 We said we'd built 456,000 units, we are nowhere near that.

spk_0 We are just completely failing.

spk_0 I'll get the stat slightly wrong,

spk_0 but we've seen the lowest number of housing starts

spk_0 and construction in Los Angeles in more than a decade.

spk_0 We're just, the city is failing

spk_0 and does not deserve the trust.

spk_0 And, but he's under a lot of pressure.

spk_0 Look, I think Prop 50 fighting Trump,

spk_0 those are unifying and galvanizing issues.

spk_0 This is a slightly divided issue

spk_0 because this is about taking on parts of your own coalition

spk_0 and saying, you know what, I get that there are problems.

spk_0 It's not a perfect law, but we've got it.

spk_0 It's not a client, Derek Thompson.

spk_0 Yeah, all the abundance.

spk_0 It's gonna fight them.

spk_0 All the fascists.

spk_0 But like, yeah, there are democratic interests

spk_0 that want this to be vetoed.

spk_0 And so the goal is not just from to sign it.

spk_0 I believe people sign it is to sign it unequivocally

spk_0 without any kind of using bureaucracy to limit it anyway.

spk_0 And that to me is what is important.

spk_0 And it's actually, I think, an important test for him

spk_0 because like, oh great, you're tough when you're fighting Trump.

spk_0 Like, we need somebody that doesn't just want to fight Trump

spk_0 but understands that Democrats have to be willing to take

spk_0 on our own to actually do hard governing.

spk_0 You might think it's progressive

spk_0 to make sure that every person can have a roof

spk_0 over their head in this country.

spk_0 But I think it's progressive to keep those historic buildings

spk_0 preserved just right and maybe have just a little bit bigger yard.

spk_0 First they came for the historic ones.

spk_0 And to make sure just, you know, a little extra yard

spk_0 and I don't want to tall building next to my train tracks

spk_0 because then it's just too much.

spk_0 Historic fighting youth.

spk_0 You got to preserve these historic buildings.

spk_0 You know what's progressive?

spk_0 A beautiful view.

spk_0 It's progressive.

spk_0 It's been infuriating and like, and Karen Bass.

spk_0 Fucking nimbis.

spk_0 Karen Bass who has like, I would say like a mixed record

spk_0 on housing, she signed some good eos,

spk_0 then she watered them down.

spk_0 Like she's done some stuff.

spk_0 Some of the best, some of the building that is happening

spk_0 on San Jose is beyond some of these affordable housing.

spk_0 Executive order she signed, but still like this is such an

spk_0 abdication.

spk_0 The city council, most of them, Nithia and others

spk_0 did vote against the city council, which was great.

spk_0 But they are just completely abdicating their responsibility

spk_0 and hoping somebody else solves it.

spk_0 This is the way to solve it.

spk_0 He has to fucking sign the thing.

spk_0 So that and also prop 50.

spk_0 And if you want more info about prop 50,

spk_0 vote saveamerica.com slash prop 50.

spk_0 You go get all kinds of information.

spk_0 That'll help you go, you know,

spk_0 try to get as many friends as possible,

spk_0 vote in the same way.

spk_0 Okay, after the break, you'll hear Tommy's conversation

spk_0 with Ben Smith about Barry Weiss taking over CBS news

spk_0 and lots more.

spk_0 Two things before we get to that.

spk_0 You may have heard that Cric and Con sold out faster

spk_0 than we ever expected.

spk_0 So big news.

spk_0 We decided to move to a bigger location.

spk_0 That means more panels, more guests and more tickets.

spk_0 The new venue is the Ronald Reagan building.

spk_0 You know, I don't think that.

spk_0 It's honestly a dream for me to be in the Reagan building.

spk_0 I feel like it would have been funnier 10 years ago

spk_0 to have us in the Reagan building.

spk_0 Now the Reagan building seems like a potential natural ally.

spk_0 Yeah, for this movement, you know, an important storm.

spk_0 Yeah, we went through the Gipper.

spk_0 The most scorching opinion about Trump so far

spk_0 just came from a Reagan judge,

spk_0 a judge appointed by Reagan last week.

spk_0 So yeah, of course, make sense.

spk_0 Your favorite Cric and podcast host will be there

spk_0 plus Ruben Gallagher, Andy Beshear,

spk_0 Janelle Bynum, Sarah McBride, Yassamon and Sari,

spk_0 Anderson Clayton, Sarah Longwell, Hassan Pike

spk_0 or Maurice Mitchell, lots more.

spk_0 The full list is up at Cric and dot com.

spk_0 We'll be announcing even more great guest soon.

spk_0 We're adding a votes, I have America Action Hub,

spk_0 a space where our partner groups will be hanging out

spk_0 and focusing on activism.

spk_0 So you can leave with the tools you need.

spk_0 Action Hub, what kind of action?

spk_0 Doing karate?

spk_0 I don't think it's anything to be.

spk_0 What are you thinking?

spk_0 I was talking about intercourse, Tommy.

spk_0 I was talking about fucking.

spk_0 You know where the action hub's gonna be?

spk_0 Here's our telegram.

spk_0 Yeah, those pants.

spk_0 That's really the action hub.

spk_0 That's the end.

spk_0 You know where it's what says right now.

spk_0 It's really these panels.

spk_0 It says right now.

spk_0 You can leave with the tools you need to fight democracy.

spk_0 That's right.

spk_0 There you go.

spk_0 Head to Cric and con dot com before this last batch

spk_0 of tickets disappears.

spk_0 And we'll see you at the action hub on November 7th in DC.

spk_0 Also, become a friend of the pod.

spk_0 It's important.

spk_0 It's fun.

spk_0 Independent media is more important than ever right now.

spk_0 You know where Tommy's talking to Ben Smith about

spk_0 Barry Weiss and CBS and all the ways

spk_0 the corporate media has let us down.

spk_0 Here we are, independent media, who support us.

spk_0 For the month of October only, you'll get 20% off

spk_0 when you subscribe for a full year.

spk_0 Is that a spooky sale?

spk_0 What's the price of $25?

spk_0 Ideal so good.

spk_0 It's spooky.

spk_0 Good.

spk_0 That's good one.

spk_0 Check out Love or Leave It.

spk_0 Add free.

spk_0 Imagine all the extra jockchial here.

spk_0 Monthly subscribers can upgrade.

spk_0 An annual subscribers can renew at the discounted rate.

spk_0 You've got all your crooked pods, add free,

spk_0 access to our discord community, bonus content,

spk_0 like polar coaster with Dan Fyfer designed to help you

spk_0 make sense of the midterms.

spk_0 The 20% discount is this month only.

spk_0 Head to Cric and dot com slash friends

spk_0 to sign up or upgrade now.

spk_0 You play polar coaster at the action hub, you know?

spk_0 Yeah, hey.

spk_0 I love it.

spk_0 You have an announcement?

spk_0 Yes, there is a new series that just launched today

spk_0 on the Love or Leave It feed.

spk_0 It is called for legal reasons.

spk_0 Love or Leave It presents Colin Bravo America.

spk_0 I'm interviewing some of the biggest icons in reality TV.

spk_0 That starts with Dr. Terry Dubrow of botched

spk_0 and the swan and real housewives of Orange County.

spk_0 Obviously, been turning off my brain at night

spk_0 and watching Bravo and other reality shows.

spk_0 And I do think you really can't understand politics

spk_0 in this moment unless you understand the world

spk_0 of these shows and why it is more important

spk_0 to be interesting and hated than boring and good.

spk_0 And don't directions.

spk_0 None so far.

spk_0 But so Dubrow is really interesting

spk_0 and talks about how the parts of filming Bravo shows,

spk_0 including real housewives that he's fucking hates.

spk_0 And he's pretty shockingly honest

spk_0 about his take on some of the real housewives,

spk_0 which was interesting.

spk_0 But more than that, this series is about figuring out

spk_0 reality TV, how it changed TV,

spk_0 and then how it changed our culture

spk_0 and then how it changed politics.

spk_0 It actually one of the reasons I wanted to do it is

spk_0 because when we talk to Sarah McBride,

spk_0 remember she talked about feeling as though

spk_0 these Republicans want to be on a Bravo show.

spk_0 And obviously Trump is a reality star.

spk_0 I'm also one as well famously.

spk_0 Of course.

spk_0 Shine bright stars.

spk_0 So I'm stretching the term.

spk_0 Some stars.

spk_0 Yes, star.

spk_0 Also featuring.

spk_0 We have Terry Dubrow, who's great.

spk_0 I talked to Durinda Medley.

spk_0 I talked to Parvati Shallow, who gave me some tips

spk_0 about how to do better on survivor.

spk_0 For next time, bad tips.

spk_0 And there'll be many others.

spk_0 We have some we have it announced.

spk_0 Well, I can't do worse.

spk_0 I can't do fucking worse.

spk_0 It's on the love of relief at feed right now.

spk_0 I am very excited about these conversations.

spk_0 They were every single time we finish one.

spk_0 Like the producer and I has been like amazed

spk_0 by what we've been hearing from some of these people

spk_0 about what it's like to be on these shows

spk_0 and what they've learned.

spk_0 And so please check it out.

spk_0 Cool.

spk_0 This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.

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spk_0 My guest today is the editor-in-chief

spk_0 of SEMIFOR in the co-host of the excellent

spk_0 Mixed Signals podcast.

spk_0 He's also a man who tends to be on the bleeding edge

spk_0 of changes in the media business.

spk_0 Ben Smith, great to see you.

spk_0 Thank you for having me, Tommy.

spk_0 So on Monday, Barry Weiss was named

spk_0 the new editor-in-chief of CBS News

spk_0 and Paramount, CBS's parent company,

spk_0 bought her startup, The Free Press,

spk_0 for $150 million in cash and stock.

spk_0 My first question to you is the question

spk_0 that everyone is asking Ben,

spk_0 which was how much do we think Barry cleared off this deal?

spk_0 Do you know what her ownership stake was by the end here?

spk_0 You know, I don't, but I would say

spk_0 that the nature of these deals is usually

spk_0 they don't just say, here's a pile of money by.

spk_0 They say, if you work really hard for us

spk_0 for a period of four or five, 10 years,

spk_0 we will compensate you gradually in stock.

spk_0 So like I would say whatever the actual terms of the deal,

spk_0 I would think this is a pretty long-term arrangement.

spk_0 Like, I think Barry Weiss will be there for a long time.

spk_0 Yeah, it struck me as an aqua hire,

spk_0 which is basically they're purchasing her entire company

spk_0 to get her to work there.

spk_0 You should probably do it have a long urn out,

spk_0 but I bet she did okay off it.

spk_0 Yes, I bet we're thinking next time you see her.

spk_0 You should make her buy dinner.

spk_0 Okay, that's what I'll do.

spk_0 I've never met her, but I'll do that.

spk_0 So help me understand why this hire makes sense for CBS.

spk_0 As far as I know, Barry Weiss says no TV news experience,

spk_0 her print experience was more on the opinion side.

spk_0 I find CBS news to be kind of like the textbook example

spk_0 of the Just the Fax ma'am kind of old school journalism,

spk_0 but she has been better known, I think recently at least,

spk_0 for more activism for being kind of anti-whats she views as woke

spk_0 for being a full-thirth of defender

spk_0 of Israeli government policies.

spk_0 So why do you think CBS decided she's the person we need?

spk_0 Well, I would say there's a couple of different things here.

spk_0 One is that I don't know if you are a regular viewer

spk_0 of the CBS evening news.

spk_0 If you are, you are very unusual for our age group.

spk_0 But CBS is a broadcast television network

spk_0 that for complicated reasons kind of missed out on cable

spk_0 and then kind of also missed out on digital.

spk_0 So this is the Titanic well after it is at the iceberg

spk_0 and a place that has been in a kind of state of real crisis

spk_0 and decline for many, many years.

spk_0 So it's not like, I mean, so I don't really,

spk_0 the idea that these guys were just doing fine

spk_0 and these maniacs are coming and changing everything.

spk_0 What are they doing? It's ridiculous.

spk_0 I mean, I think CBS is sort of a poster child

spk_0 for a company that really failed to figure out

spk_0 the digital transition lost most of its value

spk_0 and is getting swallowed by some billionaires kid,

spk_0 which is at a discount as a result.

spk_0 And that's true of CBS, which is news,

spk_0 which is a tiny, tiny portion of a bigger company

spk_0 that is now called Paramount.

spk_0 That includes all sorts of other things

spk_0 that used to have a lot of value

spk_0 and Sherry Redstone who owned it,

spk_0 managed it gradually downward over a period of years.

spk_0 And so in the new ownership, David Ellison,

spk_0 who's dad is one of the richest guys in the world,

spk_0 Larry Ellison, I think both seem authentically

spk_0 to share various politics, which are,

spk_0 I don't know if you'd call them center right there,

spk_0 a clectic, they're very pro-Israel,

spk_0 very upset about the direction the media took

spk_0 in the last few years.

spk_0 And I think Ellison obviously kind of shares those

spk_0 to some degree.

spk_0 And CBS News, by the way,

spk_0 is a single digit percentage of the business of CBS,

spk_0 which is mostly the movie business.

spk_0 And Ellison has spent his career in the movie business.

spk_0 And then people say the news is like 4% of the revenue

spk_0 and 95% of the headaches of these businesses.

spk_0 But, sure, this is one of the first big splashy things

spk_0 he's doing is bringing in,

spk_0 as the editor-in-chief, not the president,

spk_0 a new title as editor-in-chief of CBS News

spk_0 to direct the editorial back to the center,

spk_0 that probably is what the owners want

spk_0 in terms of their own political views,

spk_0 although that's not gonna rescue a dying broadcast operation.

spk_0 It also comes at a time, Donald Trump loves to rage

spk_0 against these networks,

spk_0 is very focused on CBS and others and feels

spk_0 that they've treated him unfairly,

spk_0 already extracted a big settlement for them.

spk_0 And I think this is a company that's looking

spk_0 for another wave of regulatory approval to buy Warner Media

spk_0 and doing things that Donald Trump likes

spk_0 seems like a pretty good way to get regulatory approval.

spk_0 And honestly, I think if you told one of these companies

spk_0 they could pay $150 million to make a big deal

spk_0 go through faster, they probably would.

spk_0 Yeah, like I'm with you on the problem

spk_0 and certainly wasn't suggesting

spk_0 that like CBS everything was going perfectly.

spk_0 I guess I'm just still not there on the solution.

spk_0 Like is Barry Weiss viewed as like a Trump whisperer

spk_0 that can get deals through the FCC or whatever, right?

spk_0 Like a lot of the reporting is focused on kind of coverage

spk_0 about Israel generally being a big point of tension

spk_0 between the new ownership and let's say 60 minutes,

spk_0 but I can't tell how central this is

spk_0 to the acquisition itself.

spk_0 Yeah, there's a lot of,

spk_0 there are a lot of different things going on here.

spk_0 And I think that's what you're seeing,

spk_0 which is CBS has one problem,

spk_0 which is its business is collapsing.

spk_0 That's not because of where it stands on Israel.

spk_0 There's CBS news.

spk_0 And in fact, isn't going to be fixed

spk_0 by tweaking their political stance

spk_0 because it has to do with the fact

spk_0 that there are broadcast television network

spk_0 with a massive cost structure.

spk_0 The, there's also people, you know,

spk_0 and I think there is also a sense of like,

spk_0 it will please Donald Trump to stick it to the old,

spk_0 the people at CBS whoever they are.

spk_0 And like that probably is a good way to,

spk_0 good like if it seems like they're giving some kind of human

spk_0 sacrifice to Donald Trump in order to get regulatory approval.

spk_0 Like that doesn't, I don't know,

spk_0 in the cynical world of big media,

spk_0 that seems like a decent idea.

spk_0 Yeah. Do you have a prediction for how it's going to go?

spk_0 Any sense of like what this is,

spk_0 how is it being received internally?

spk_0 I mean, you know, CBS,

spk_0 it's like, I don't know if you've ever worked

spk_0 at one of these institutions where like,

spk_0 which has been like rocked by scandal after scandal

spk_0 and leak after leak for longer than you've been alive.

spk_0 But everything always goes badly there.

spk_0 The only story so, and I think people underestimate

spk_0 the extent to which like, yeah, like she,

spk_0 she is being given the job,

spk_0 maybe not as captain of the Titanic,

spk_0 but as first mate post iceberg.

spk_0 And like, that's a very, very challenging situation.

spk_0 And I don't know, we should all be rooting for them to succeed.

spk_0 Because I think the most natural thing here

spk_0 is that they see us to exist.

spk_0 Like just, that's the course that they've been on for a long time.

spk_0 Yeah, no, I look, I want CBS news to succeed generally.

spk_0 I really had not thought of it that way.

spk_0 This is being first made or captain on an iceberg

spk_0 that they're in a ship hitting an iceberg that does suck.

spk_0 When Barry Weiss quit the New York Times,

spk_0 she cited bullying by colleagues.

spk_0 She said the New York Times would become an illiberal environment.

spk_0 She said there was a quote,

spk_0 civil war inside the New York Times

spk_0 between the mostly young wokes

spk_0 and the mostly 40 plus liberals.

spk_0 You worked the New York Times from 2020 to 2022.

spk_0 Was it illiberal?

spk_0 Was Michael Barbaro bullying you in the lunchroom?

spk_0 Like, what was the scene there?

spk_0 So it was, look, there was no lunchroom.

spk_0 It was all slack, which did make it certainly totally insane.

spk_0 And you know, I guess I, you know,

spk_0 Newberry there at the time.

spk_0 And I think didn't, maybe I didn't take these things as personally.

spk_0 Like I think, you know, people react to things differently.

spk_0 But I do think if, you know,

spk_0 this slack became some rough equivalent of Twitter.

spk_0 And I do think the culture was more dominated by younger people

spk_0 who were more comfortable in social media.

spk_0 And sometimes really did take on

spk_0 some of the crazier features of social media.

spk_0 Like there was a 2000 person.

spk_0 I wasn't allowed in most of the slack

spk_0 because I wrote about the New York Times.

spk_0 Right. Right.

spk_0 So like I got tossed out of slacks

spk_0 and tell her the rents created a slack called Ben Chat

spk_0 where people could talk to me.

spk_0 But there was one giant slack with everybody in it.

spk_0 And that was the one where when James Bennett,

spk_0 there was a controversy that I feel like we don't need to revisit

spk_0 involving the opinion editor.

spk_0 But people were reacting, you can react with emojis

spk_0 and people were reacting with guillotine.

spk_0 Oh, boy.

spk_0 Like intended ironically, perhaps,

spk_0 but not, I would not say that is collegial.

spk_0 And when I, at some point,

spk_0 somebody complained to the executive or Dean Becae

spk_0 that my being in the slack made people unsafe

spk_0 because I might write about it.

spk_0 OK.

spk_0 And he, I thought quite reasonably.

spk_0 And this is a sense of like, I don't think

spk_0 it was not totally homogenous culture.

spk_0 He told them that's ridiculous.

spk_0 This is a slack with 2000 people in it.

spk_0 Of course, it's going to leak.

spk_0 But yeah, I mean, I guess I think that maybe I don't have

spk_0 as I think it was quite that straightforward.

spk_0 But certainly there was the kind of like left wing

spk_0 political waves and social waves swept through there,

spk_0 swept through all of society.

spk_0 And I do think it was pretty.

spk_0 And yeah, I think it was, I think the management

spk_0 has spent the last couple of years pushing that back.

spk_0 It's interesting.

spk_0 I mean, look, what I'm taking, what I'm inferring

spk_0 from your very delicate answer is that you saw some

spk_0 illiberalness.

spk_0 You saw some cruelty maybe in the slack.

spk_0 It's just interesting.

spk_0 With some people that radicalizes them.

spk_0 And then there's people like Matthew Eglaceus over at Vox

spk_0 who kind of just tweets through the most vicious attacks

spk_0 on a daily basis.

spk_0 It seems impervious to it.

spk_0 Doesn't kind of just like does this thing regardless

spk_0 and just has a very different reaction.

spk_0 Yeah, I think you're probably,

spk_0 I think if you've spent a lot of your career

spk_0 being attacked by strangers on the internet,

spk_0 as I have, you develop like a kind of pathologically

spk_0 thick skin to it.

spk_0 But I don't think you can actually expect

spk_0 other people to act that way.

spk_0 Like that's not normal.

spk_0 If your colleagues are being mean to you,

spk_0 like probably you hate it and you're going to quit.

spk_0 Yeah, I don't think that's an unreasonable reaction.

spk_0 No, I don't think it was either.

spk_0 I'm a huge baby and I've had exchanges on Twitter

spk_0 ruined an entire weekend.

spk_0 And my wife looking at me like,

spk_0 why aren't you parenting our children right now?

spk_0 Or are you really in a fight about the JCPOA

spk_0 with someone with like a Twitter egg?

spk_0 And I'm like, yeah, that's actually who I am.

spk_0 That's who you married.

spk_0 So I'm sorry about that.

spk_0 But I do think like the question is for like what is,

spk_0 like what is the, I think what this means,

spk_0 like what is Barry's role to be as me is like very,

spk_0 I don't think it's decided.

spk_0 I think it's very open to interpretation.

spk_0 I think it a lot depends.

spk_0 You know, in particular on how they decide

spk_0 to cover Donald Trump because I mean,

spk_0 I talked to somebody who was involved in the deal

spk_0 and who was very aware that like they're just now

spk_0 dealing with this shadow of this sense that well,

spk_0 like oh, they've made some secret corrupt deal

spk_0 with the president in exchange for,

spk_0 you know, get regulatory approval for their real business,

spk_0 which is the movie business,

spk_0 the entertainment business in exchange for favorable coverage

spk_0 on this tiny little, you know, news thing

spk_0 that they have to own.

spk_0 And how do you deal, like how do I ask them?

spk_0 Like, well, how do you, how do you deal with that impression?

spk_0 And they said, well, we're just gonna have to cover Trump,

spk_0 really, we're really tough and adversarial

spk_0 and do great journalism that the White House doesn't like.

spk_0 When that's fair.

spk_0 And I think that, you know, that is ultimately the test.

spk_0 Yeah, well, you're right.

spk_0 And we should not prejudge.

spk_0 Her tenure there, it is challenging,

spk_0 though, because it comes in the wake of some major departures

spk_0 at 60 minutes and a pretty high profile dust up over,

spk_0 you know, that show feeling like they were being censored

spk_0 by corporate execs and then the lawsuit

spk_0 and caving to Trump.

spk_0 So a tough challenging time to go into that job,

spk_0 like you said earlier, you have a great column out this week

spk_0 in semifor about Donald Trump's information filter

spk_0 and sort of information bubble.

spk_0 Can you explain how Trump's information diet has changed

spk_0 from the first term to today?

spk_0 And then why that might have some of the supporters

spk_0 a little worried?

spk_0 Yeah, I mean, one thing about the White House

spk_0 and you worked there and you know this is that,

spk_0 you just inevitably the president is a little bit

spk_0 a prisoner of the building, a prisoner of what kind

spk_0 of information he's getting who's talking to him.

spk_0 Like Eisenhower, Nixon's AIDS,

spk_0 referred to as the Berlin Wall,

spk_0 because they were German,

spk_0 hold him in our Lickman and they wouldn't let nobody through.

spk_0 But in any case, Trump in his first term,

spk_0 like almost uniquely among presidents,

spk_0 like totally busted out of that

spk_0 and was just on Twitter, engaging everyone.

spk_0 He was like reading like the rage bait from you.

spk_0 He was like soaking up the adulation from his fans,

spk_0 but he was just seeing the same stuff

spk_0 everybody else was on Twitter.

spk_0 And now I think actually sort of like everybody else,

spk_0 he's retreated into much more comfortable spaces

spk_0 in his case, truth, social,

spk_0 where he sometimes goes on these sprees

spk_0 of like retrooping really weird memes

spk_0 and where he posts stuff and where he sees adulation.

spk_0 But and he's also, he does watch TV, mostly Fox,

spk_0 Fox's more pro Trump, more sort of consistently pro Trump

spk_0 than it was in his first term.

spk_0 He, what and there's also these other right wing networks

spk_0 he can watch, he does, you know,

spk_0 he reads the papers, he reads the New York Post

spk_0 and other papers, but but I think people around him,

spk_0 but both people who like him and don't like him

spk_0 have started to think like, oh, maybe he's not seeing everything.

spk_0 There was this odd instance where he talked

spk_0 to the governor of Oregon and he got off the phone and said,

spk_0 yeah, you know, she said one thing to me

spk_0 and I've been seeing this other thing on TV

spk_0 and hearing things from my staff.

spk_0 I'm like, I'm not really sure what's going on.

spk_0 And then I've said the other day,

spk_0 but Kathy Hocal, the governor of New York,

spk_0 I guess told him that the federal government

spk_0 had cut off funding to New York and that was news to him.

spk_0 And it just, and I think in some sense,

spk_0 the biggest question is like, what is he hearing about the economy

spk_0 and like how good is the information he's getting?

spk_0 And I think that's, I mean, I didn't like,

spk_0 I don't really know, but they're basically the core

spk_0 of this situation is that there's a A in the Natalie Harp

spk_0 who follows him around with an iPad

spk_0 and that people who really, really, really want to get his attention

spk_0 particularly in the conservative movement

spk_0 have her number and text her things

spk_0 and hope that she will go then play the video to him.

spk_0 And that's like the key, key, gatekeeping function.

spk_0 God help us all.

spk_0 I mean, yeah, he tweeted this video the other weekend

spk_0 or the week about med beds.

spk_0 I don't know if you tracked this controversy.

spk_0 It's just like Q and on thing.

spk_0 It's the mid-up check.

spk_0 Yeah, I was assuming that's why you look so ageless, Tom.

spk_0 Yeah, it's a filter.

spk_0 So that's a barbell water filter.

spk_0 Med beds, like basically they think it's alien technology

spk_0 that's being hidden by elites that could cure every disease.

spk_0 All of a sudden Donald Trump tweets or truths

spk_0 this AI video that AI renders his own voice

spk_0 of a made up technology.

spk_0 And I would just kill for some deep reporting

spk_0 into how unearthed that actually happens.

spk_0 How does that go from creation to his feed to shared?

spk_0 You know, I think he's just on truth social seeing memes.

spk_0 And if you look through, he's like re-true thing

spk_0 some really terrible memes that I think he's just saying,

spk_0 like, oh, here's somebody who likes me saying something nice.

spk_0 And I assume that's what the med bed thing was.

spk_0 It seemed vaguely positive.

spk_0 It said that he was giving everybody special med bed cards.

spk_0 So like, when you were on the white test,

spk_0 did you like, how did you think about kind of controlling

spk_0 President Obama's access to information?

spk_0 Well, he famously kept his blackberry, right?

spk_0 That was sort of an early battle he won to get information.

spk_0 I think he certainly would go on at night

spk_0 and whatever, you know, I mean David Brooks column would post,

spk_0 Dan Fyfer would get an email being like,

spk_0 we need to deal with this or whatever.

spk_0 The other way he spent a lot of time

spk_0 was playing words with friends with Reggie Love

spk_0 and other people.

spk_0 So he had his own ways sort of getting around us,

spk_0 but you're right, like when you're president, I'd say,

spk_0 it's all your jokes are funny.

spk_0 Everything he says brilliant.

spk_0 People stand up when you walk in the room.

spk_0 So that's got to just kind of fuck with your thinking,

spk_0 whether you're Donald Trump or anybody else.

spk_0 Yeah, and I do, and I do think in a weird way,

spk_0 this is a return to a more traditional kind of presidency

spk_0 where he is trapped in an information bubble.

spk_0 Yeah, and probably more so than before, right?

spk_0 With given the security challenges that come from him.

spk_0 Yeah, that's true.

spk_0 Multiple assassination attempts.

spk_0 But didn't he used to hate watch TV all the time?

spk_0 I feel like he used to routinely tweet about Morning Joe.

spk_0 Yeah, he used to hate watch more

spk_0 because I think there was like, it was just Fox

spk_0 and then a bunch of stuff he hated,

spk_0 but now he's got OAN and Newsmax

spk_0 and all sorts of stuff on social that he can watch.

spk_0 And once in a while, like a Democratic Senator

spk_0 like made their way on to Fox yesterday morning

spk_0 and he freaked out about it on Truth Social

spk_0 and demanded that they not let Brian Shatz back on there

spk_0 to lie about him.

spk_0 But I think that actually almost is an indication

spk_0 of what you said, like he's not rage tweeting

spk_0 the sort of, he's not hate watching anymore.

spk_0 Which in a way, like, I mean, I guess it seems like

spk_0 he is all of us, right?

spk_0 Like in the sort of experience of the media

spk_0 between 2015 and 2020 was that this social media machines

spk_0 were so good at finding the worst thing

spk_0 that the people you dislike had said

spk_0 and just like shoving it in your face.

spk_0 And the new TikTok world is that like,

spk_0 no, you just get like pleasing stuff

spk_0 that affirms your prejudices all day.

spk_0 That's right.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 The biggest surprise in your piece, by the way,

spk_0 was seeing Laura Loomer of all people kind of

spk_0 talking about Trump's information diet

spk_0 and sounding like a voice of reason.

spk_0 She's very concerned.

spk_0 Is she really okay?

spk_0 For those who don't know Laura Loomer is,

spk_0 she's like a far right nut in my opinion.

spk_0 She once tweeted like an applauding emoji

spk_0 over an article about 2000 migrants dying,

spk_0 while trying to cross in North Africa to Europe.

spk_0 She changed herself to the Twitter office door in New York

spk_0 while wearing a Yellow Star of David

spk_0 to compare herself to the treatment of Jews in the Holocaust.

spk_0 My point being, it doesn't always,

spk_0 sometimes seems like she's got a screw loose,

spk_0 but she was seemed reasonable there.

spk_0 How did that come to be?

spk_0 I think she is somebody who thinks a lot

spk_0 about how you get information to Donald Trump

spk_0 and has seen herself boxed out a bit by White House staff,

spk_0 although she finds her ways to get to him directly.

spk_0 But one thing is it used to be that influencers,

spk_0 right wing influencers who had a really good fastball

spk_0 could just get in front of him by tweeting stuff

spk_0 and getting retweeted and going viral.

spk_0 And now you have to be the only two people

spk_0 that I think can really do it,

spk_0 just because by just absolute intensity and velocity

spk_0 and saying such intense stuff on social media,

spk_0 are her and the kind of mega legal figure, Mike Davis,

spk_0 who denounces judges very heatedly.

spk_0 And I think that stuff makes its way to him,

spk_0 but I think the rest of the sort of right wing Twitter sphere

spk_0 is like really having trouble kind of making their way

spk_0 into Trump's personal consciousness.

spk_0 Interesting.

spk_0 Bigger picture, like a couple weeks ago,

spk_0 we were all talking about ABC News and Jimmy Kimmel,

spk_0 which Kimmel got pulled off the air

spk_0 and then FCC Chairman Brendan Carr made all these threats

spk_0 that he would hurt the network.

spk_0 Or we could do the easy way or the hard way

spk_0 if Kimmel wasn't punished for comments.

spk_0 He made about Charlie Kirk.

spk_0 Kimmel's now back on the air,

spk_0 but Trump threatened to sue ABC again.

spk_0 Now that the dust has set a little bit,

spk_0 what do you think the impact was of that whole ordeal?

spk_0 Are networks rethinking things or is just, I don't know.

spk_0 I mean, I just think that the big corporate media executives

spk_0 are really wary of angering the president

spk_0 and they're thinking about it all the time.

spk_0 And it's a matter, it's not that they wouldn't ever

spk_0 do anything, you know, publish, you know,

spk_0 an accurate, important story that was,

spk_0 that didn't make the way it has happy,

spk_0 but it's there thinking about picking your battles.

spk_0 And this really is familiar to any journalist

spk_0 who's worked in complicated places.

spk_0 I mean, I think, you know, for instance,

spk_0 if you're, you know, major,

spk_0 I once talked to somebody who'd been a correspondent

spk_0 for a great newspaper in Tehran.

spk_0 And like, you kind of know at some point,

spk_0 you're going to get booted,

spk_0 because you're going to write a story that anger's the regime.

spk_0 But so you think like, all right,

spk_0 like is this one worth it?

spk_0 Like this is kind of a dumb story

spk_0 about somebody's family being corrupt.

spk_0 Like let's skip this one.

spk_0 Let's wait for the one that really, you know,

spk_0 that really gets them.

spk_0 And so in situations like this,

spk_0 you just start to pick your battles

spk_0 and decide like, look,

spk_0 we're not going to do the story about the president's family.

spk_0 It's going to annoy him.

spk_0 Let's like wait till we,

spk_0 and it does change the shape of the coverage.

spk_0 It means that there's less criticism.

spk_0 I think the other thing that happened at ABC though

spk_0 was that I think you saw that there are these other stakeholders

spk_0 in these companies who they have to deal with too.

spk_0 And in particular for ABC,

spk_0 it's it's a list actors and directors

spk_0 and there for Disney.

spk_0 And I think you saw that you saw,

spk_0 I don't think it ever really was a public protest,

spk_0 but people clearly called up by a guy and said,

spk_0 hey, we're going to start pulling movies.

spk_0 We're going to refuse.

spk_0 We're going to publicly refuse to work with you.

spk_0 And you know, these media companies are very,

spk_0 very, very dependent on talent

spk_0 and talent does have leverage.

spk_0 Yeah, you got to imagine I was getting some,

spk_0 some rude texts from some real A-listers

spk_0 over that weekend.

spk_0 It seems like intense.

spk_0 Yeah, final question for you.

spk_0 I just don't think Democrats have fully internalized

spk_0 kind of the what the new media landscape looks like.

spk_0 We have, you know, very wisely eating CBS news,

spk_0 TBD if that matters or not.

spk_0 But Elon Musk owns Twitter,

spk_0 a group of Trump allies are going to run TikTok.

spk_0 Fox News is not just the dominant cable player,

spk_0 but like the dominant news channel period.

spk_0 And then I think conservatives,

spk_0 I mean, tell me for your disagree,

spk_0 but they seem to be dominating

spk_0 the independent media world and the podcast charts.

spk_0 There's not necessarily a question there.

spk_0 It's more just like an observation

spk_0 of how grim things seem for progressives.

spk_0 Well, I actually think that,

spk_0 I mean, if you look at the sort of new media charts,

spk_0 you're starting to see left-wing voices dominate more.

spk_0 I mean, like Midas is the, I think the off

spk_0 and the biggest channel on YouTube.

spk_0 And it follows to some of you,

spk_0 where is the most engagement,

spk_0 where is the most energy?

spk_0 And, and, you know, I think a lot of these,

spk_0 particularly a lot of the really kind of independent

spk_0 podcast sphere is really built around this like

spk_0 profound suspicion of power,

spk_0 but also of government and of truth and of anything.

spk_0 And you saw with the Epstein stuff

spk_0 that there's just this like intense tendency

spk_0 to eat their own.

spk_0 But no, I think there's a real kind of like conservative

spk_0 control of the mainstream media now.

spk_0 And it's not exactly MAGA conservatives.

spk_0 I think people like David Ellison and Jeff Bezos

spk_0 are kind of, I don't really know what their politics are.

spk_0 I kind of like center,

spk_0 I guess it's what you'd call center right.

spk_0 And probably, but, you know, I don't really know.

spk_0 But I think that like the thing that is,

spk_0 actually, I think there are two things.

spk_0 One is that you have people with right of center of views,

spk_0 owning and running some of these media properties.

spk_0 But I think the much more important thing

spk_0 is you have people who are scared of the government.

spk_0 And of Trump making decisions.

spk_0 Definitely lots of scared people making decisions

spk_0 for financial reasons.

spk_0 Ben, thank you for joining the show.

spk_0 Everyone should check out Semaphore and subscribe

spk_0 to the NYX Signal podcast.

spk_0 It's excellent.

spk_0 Who do you guys have recently?

spk_0 You had the new head of MSNBC.

spk_0 Yeah, we had the new CEO of VersaNT,

spk_0 which owns MSNBC and he spent the whole time

spk_0 talking about how he wants to buy crook it.

spk_0 So watch out everybody.

spk_0 Come on in.

spk_0 I'll be your Barry, sir.

spk_0 Whatever it takes.

spk_0 Ben, thank you again.

spk_0 Great to talk to you.

spk_0 Yeah, good talking to you.

spk_0 That's our show for today.

spk_0 Thanks to Ben Smith for coming on.

spk_0 Dan and I will be back with a new show on Friday.

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spk_0 And everything we do here at Cricket.

spk_0 Potsayv America is a Cricket Media production.

spk_0 Our producers are David Toledo, Emma Ilek Frank,

spk_0 and Saul Rubin.

spk_0 Our associate producer is Farah Safari.

spk_0 Austin Fisher is our senior producer.

spk_0 Reed Churland is our executive editor.

spk_0 Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics.

spk_0 The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick.

spk_0 Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer

spk_0 with audio support from Kyle Seglund and Charlotte Landis.

spk_0 Matt DeGroat is our head of production.

spk_0 Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant.

spk_0 Thanks to our digital team, a Lajacone,

spk_0 Haley Jones, Ben Heffkoat, Mia Kelman, Carol Pellavi,

spk_0 David Tolz, and Ryan Young.

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Trump's War on Blue America

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