Episode 240: Otto Aerospace CEO Paul Touw talks teardrop, laminar flow, and Phantom 3500

Interactive Transcript

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spk_0 pistons now at txtav.com. That's txtav.com. This week on Hangar Talk, the NTSB releases a

spk_0 Learjet gear detachment urgent recommendation.

spk_0 And textron dispans eAviation, beginning a new era for pipistral.

spk_0 The UAVionics APRT tower system is approved by the FAA.

spk_0 Congress advances a bill that would require the use of ADSB in for many aircraft.

spk_0 And the ATC Academy and FAA controllers are feeling the funding crisis pinch.

spk_0 David, are you ready to do some Hangar Talk?

spk_0 Let's do it, Jay.

spk_0 From AOPA, you're free to fly.

spk_0 This is Hangar Talk.

spk_0 With your host, David Toulis and Alicia Heron.

spk_0 This is Hangar Talk.

spk_0 Welcome to Hangar Talk, everybody. I'm David Toulis.

spk_0 And I'm Jay Wilde sitting in for Alicia Heron this episode.

spk_0 And Jay, I'm really glad you're with us this week. We hear from you from time to time.

spk_0 You've been providing the mosaic minute, which we appreciate.

spk_0 But you're going to fill us in a little bit more on what's happening downtown DC,

spk_0 amid this funding crunch and put some fine tooth points on some of the activity that we've

spk_0 been hearing so much about, right?

spk_0 Yeah, absolutely. And you know, there's a potential for impact to GA pilots too.

spk_0 So definitely important to talk about those.

spk_0 Exactly.

spk_0 All right. So later on, we're going to hear from auto aerospace,

spk_0 Pilar Wolfsteller, who works for us in ASI. She's a writer. You've probably read some of her

spk_0 articles so far. She's going to interview the Chief Executive Officer for the Business Jet

spk_0 Startup manufacturer. And we're going to get briefed on the super mid-size Phantom 3500 airframe

spk_0 that has laminar flow technology and a teardrop shape. But no passenger windows.

spk_0 It is really interesting. I'm looking forward to that a lot.

spk_0 All right. Well, David, let's go ahead and jump into this week's mosaic minute.

spk_0 One thing that I want to just mention before we get into it is we've gotten so many great questions

spk_0 into AOPA's pilot information center. I sent them a note a few weeks ago and,

spk_0 you know, David, you've worked with them for a long time too. They are the real experts.

spk_0 They are a wealth of knowledge that every pilot really needs.

spk_0 Absolutely. They're cockpit resource management in your back pocket.

spk_0 Exactly. And I sent them a note a few weeks ago. I'm like, hey, like one of the most

spk_0 common questions you guys are getting on mosaic and the email I got back was dozens of bullet points.

spk_0 So we've got mosaic minute covered for quite some time here just with those questions.

spk_0 Yes, bad. But the one I want to get into today is does my aircraft or which aircraft qualify

spk_0 to be flown by a sport pilot since mosaic went into effect? First, let's go ahead and look back

spk_0 at the previous rules before mosaic sport pilots could only fly light sport aircraft or LSAs.

spk_0 And that was pretty limiting. They had a max weight and a max airspeed both of which are gone

spk_0 and the previous LSA stall speed and seating requirements. Those have been relaxed with the new rules.

spk_0 Now sport pilots can fly aircraft whether they're LSAs the traditional LSAs are not.

spk_0 They can fly aircraft with up to four seats, but they're still limited to only carrying one passenger.

spk_0 And they can fly just about any aircraft with the stall speed of up to 59 knots calibrated air speed

spk_0 with flaps retracted. So the question then is where can I find this stall speed? It's like the

spk_0 holy grail what you're looking for. So the answer is it's usually located in your pilot's operating

spk_0 handbook your POH. But for some aircraft it's not going to be there. So we've told a lot of members

spk_0 to contact your aircraft's manufacturer to find that information. You know David something that a

spk_0 lot of people have asked for is a full list of aircraft that sport pilots can fly because there

spk_0 are lists of the old LSAs out there. But when you look at the list of aircraft that now qualify,

spk_0 I mean you could write in one point font and you would have a book you know by the end of that list.

spk_0 So there's so many in other words. There's just so many. There are so many aircraft. It's just

spk_0 hard to put together. But I will say we are in the process of reaching out to all of the type

spk_0 certificate holders, think Piper and and Textron, etc. Oh good. Because we want to ask them for lists

spk_0 of aircraft that qualify. We're just starting to get some of that information back. But once we do

spk_0 get it we'll be sure to put it at aopa.org slash mosaic. So definitely check there for updates whenever

spk_0 that comes in. Okay so you mentioned two things that are really interesting. We're crowdsourcing

spk_0 this a little bit with a type certificate clubs. That's great. Yeah. AirCoup owners,

spk_0 the Sesson 12140 owners, the shortwing Piper club owners and on and on and on. Speaking of which

spk_0 a lot of these older aircrafts, Jay have very thin POHs or flight manuals with hardly any

spk_0 information in it at all whatsoever. So maybe finding some of that 59 knots calibrated airspeed

spk_0 might be difficult. Plus a lot of the aircraft, the older ones, it was listed in miles per hour.

spk_0 So you're going to have to do a little conversion there. So some work has yet to be done. But it

spk_0 sounds like we're getting to the bottom of that and you're right. The list would be very, very long.

spk_0 But that's a good thing. We can fly many, many more aircraft now than we used to. Exactly. Exactly.

spk_0 Al Stany. Well you know we've been talking a little bit about member benefits for the past few

spk_0 episodes here. Let's give another look at some exclusive AOPA member benefits. I might save

spk_0 some people money. I'm going to start with one that we haven't talked about in a while. The King

spk_0 Schools has an AOPA student pilot special that includes five single subject online takeoff courses

spk_0 and the King Schools online aviation library. If you purchase a private pilot flight training

spk_0 combo, which is a pretty good deal. Absolutely. Yeah. It's good to have all that stuff in one place.

spk_0 One we haven't mentioned before, David, especially that would benefit listeners outside the US

spk_0 or if you ever live outside the US, anyone holding an FAA certificate that lives outside the US,

spk_0 you may be aware that the FAA has new rules that require pilots and other airmen to designate a

spk_0 US agent for service. So you need a registered agent. Well, AOPA has a registered agent service

spk_0 that launched earlier this year. And as an AOPA member, you get a $20 discount on using that

spk_0 registered agent service and it'll do everything from will send any scans of FAA correspondence to

spk_0 your email. And if you are an AOPA member, whether it's in the US or of another IAOPA affiliate,

spk_0 there are discounts there as well. That's good to know if you're listening to us outside of the USA.

spk_0 These are regs and things that you might need some help with if you're flying an FAA registered

spk_0 in numbered aircraft or if you have an FAA certificate that you want to maintain. Thank you, Jay,

spk_0 for explaining that. That is something new. I'm glad you mentioned it. As always, you can find

spk_0 this and all of our member benefits online at aapa.org slash membership. So Jay, I'm talking to you from

spk_0 Frederick. It's raining today, but the weekend flying weather on these coasts has actually been

spk_0 really nice the past few weeks. And unfortunately, the trustee tripasers temporarily down for a minor

spk_0 maintenance issue. Oh, no. Yeah. I had a no-strut issue that's that's been solved in ace mechanic and

spk_0 airplane whisper Carlos Illures and I've been working through a little bit of a fabric covering

spk_0 inspection hole snaffoo that will get fixed real, real sin. Meanwhile, I took off last weekend in

spk_0 a SESTA 172 and went up to Pennsylvania. I visited Grimes Airport. It's eight November one for those

spk_0 who have been there or not been there. It was the annual great pumpkin drop. So oh, that sounds

spk_0 like a 2700 foot long grass landing strip is near Bethel, Pennsylvania, just north of Harrisburgs,

spk_0 recently upgraded class C airspace. Oh, that's right. Yeah.

spk_0 And I talked to the control. In fact, I talked to the controllers coming and going and I made a

spk_0 mention to thank them for working, which at that point we were assuming at that point they weren't

spk_0 going to get paid. And we'll talk about this a little bit later. But in fact, as of Tuesday this

spk_0 week, they did miss a paycheck. And they were very appreciative. They were as professional as

spk_0 always. And just a moment here on hangar talk to thank ATC for keeping us safe. We all really

spk_0 appreciate that. Meanwhile, over at Grimes, it's a great place to go. Satabria's cubs, all kinds of

spk_0 rag-wing airplanes were flying an inside pattern to lob those pumpkins toward a boat. There's a boat

spk_0 right there near the grass strip. And it really takes some skill. You got to, you know, not only navigate

spk_0 correctly, but you got to think about the airplane speed and the wind direction. I kind of like a

spk_0 picture on a pitching mound. Yeah. And of course, you're lobbing technique depending on the aircraft

spk_0 you're in. It was a lot of fun. Colossagnitos is going to write a little bit about that in a future

spk_0 AOPA pilot magazine story. And if folks have not been there to that airfield, the golden age of aviation

spk_0 museum is located there at Grimes. The airfield is home to several music festivals throughout the

spk_0 year. And a lot of other community events. It is a lot of fun. Yeah, that's great. So Jay, Jay,

spk_0 what's the latest in year? And I heard you were getting ready to get up in the airplane last week.

spk_0 I was. And then so I'm down in Austin, Texas. And out of like the last couple of months, the one

spk_0 day that we had rain was the day I was going to go flying. So my plans were thwarted. You know,

spk_0 I have two young kids and the plan was to I was going to go flying with a friend. And I've never flown

spk_0 over my house before. And the plan was to, you know, wave at the kids that they wave, wave from the

spk_0 ground. I don't know, just have fun with it. But oh, well, we'll we'll make it happen soon enough.

spk_0 I think that'd be a lot of fun. And in fact, that reminds me when I was much, much younger and I was

spk_0 at sleep away camp in North Georgia. My dad had an aircoup. You know, this is way before cell phones

spk_0 and all. But he got word to me that he was going to fly over the sleep away camp on a certain day

spk_0 in the aircoup and waggle his wings. So indeed, he did. He flew over the camp and we ran out

spk_0 to this field, you know, the ball field to look up. And there he was circling the camp. It was a

spk_0 lot of fun. That's good memories. And it is. That's that's the kind of thing that really makes you

spk_0 enjoy general aviation even more. All right. But now we actually need to move on to the news.

spk_0 Well, some of one start out with there was a runway excursion and a subsequent collision with a

spk_0 parked airplane out in Arizona via Learjet back in February this year. And it was a Lear 35A. It

spk_0 was damaged quite a lot when it was involved in this accident near Scottsdale, Arizona. Unfortunately,

spk_0 the captain was killed in that. And the first officer and one passenger were seriously injured.

spk_0 Another passenger sustained minor injuries and an occupant inside a park airplane also sustained

spk_0 serious injuries. There were a lot of questions about this like what happened with a Learjet landing

spk_0 on the runway and sliding off the runway into a parked airplane. Well, interestingly, the NTSB did

spk_0 some crowdsourcing with that investigation and came to the conclusion that looking at security

spk_0 camera footage, numerous videos from personal cell phone cameras and witness statements from a golf

spk_0 course near the final approach path, which captured the airplane for a full 11 seconds. It can

spk_0 be seen on final approach with the left landing gear trailing aft from its normal position. So aft. So

spk_0 it wasn't fully locked down is what it looks like. And it was twisted. And then they looked at some

spk_0 of this forensic visual evidence and noted that there was a circular bright spot seen above the

spk_0 landing gear strut consistent with the landing gear light illuminating the bottom of the wing flap

spk_0 and the landing gear strut position facing it. So these clues led to a determination that there

spk_0 was a serious problem with maintenance on this landing gear of this aircraft. And as the NTSB dug into

spk_0 a little further, they noted that there was actually a retention bolt that goes through a

spk_0 trunnion. And it was not lined up and essentially wasn't making full 100% contact and it allowed

spk_0 that gear to swing a little bit for lack of a better term. So that apparently was not the first

spk_0 incidence of this type of maintenance question coming up. And actually the same flight crew had a

spk_0 landing mishap in June of last year. VDM revealed that the airplane landed hard just short of the runway

spk_0 and abounced a few times. So as a result, the landing gear was all taken apart. Basically,

spk_0 mechanics were pouring over the aircraft and rotating the landing gear and making it go up and down.

spk_0 There was some concern about this pin in the trunnion and a grease hole that could be seen with

spk_0 grease coming out of it, which kind of led investigators to wonder what could have happened back

spk_0 then the grease is supposed to stay in not go out. So the bottom line was that as a result of this

spk_0 investigation, which was, you know, months long investigation that as a condition of continued

spk_0 airworthiness, operators and owners of applicable lear jet models are to comply with a bomb BARDA

spk_0 service bulletin, which there are several listed. And there are, I'm going by memory here, but I

spk_0 want to say there were about 1800 lear jets that might be affected by this particular urgent service

spk_0 request. Yeah, I'm looking at some notes from a press release, the NTSB, and 1883 airplanes that are

spk_0 in service. You know something that caught my eye on this, David, is BABARDA sent out a service

spk_0 bulletin after this accident and asking them to perform a one time check on the landing gear.

spk_0 And they said this week that only 12% of the airplanes that this applies to had been

spk_0 inspected according to BABARDA. Oh, man, that's not hardly any. Yeah. So there's a lot of

spk_0 a lot of inspections that still need to still need to happen as a result. Bottom line here is that

spk_0 BABARDA was to revise the maintenance procedures for these applicable lear jet models

spk_0 to include a check of this position of the after landing gear, trunion pin, and the retaining bolt

spk_0 following maintenance. So folks who are the other 88% who haven't done it yet, get with your

spk_0 mechanic and make sure that that maintenance gets performed ASAP. Yeah, absolutely. Moving on.

spk_0 All right. Next we're talking about Textron. They have disbanded their eAviation business,

spk_0 which was really comprised of Pipistral, which you may remember they acquired that company in 2022.

spk_0 Yeah. So what this has done, I was reading a couple of articles about this both from

spk_0 AvBreef and one from Arrow Time, talking about how this is going to shift the business for Pipistral.

spk_0 You know, as EVTOL becomes closer to reality for the industry, this is going to let

spk_0 Cessna Beachcraft, these long standing, incredibly powerful businesses also use some of those

spk_0 resources for Pipistral. And I just thought that was really interesting and definitely worth

spk_0 mentioning that they are now side by side in Textron with Cessna and with Beachcraft.

spk_0 Well, you know, back it was back in March of 2022 when Textron, you know, absorbed the

spk_0 Pipistral line and then the Velis Electro. They put that, you know, into the Textron household.

spk_0 Raised a lot of eyebrows back then. So they've had the company for about three years.

spk_0 And we've all been wondering what they're going to do with it. You know, the main thing that we

spk_0 still have yet to determine is what's going to happen to some of the numerous projects that were

spk_0 already a go for the electric manufacturer. And they were looking at hybrid and electric drones

spk_0 and other aircraft. So it's not clear what the demise of that EAVAsian division and it's a

spk_0 simulation into the larger corporation will will mean for those projects. Yeah, well, hopefully it

spk_0 means that there's there are streamlined things, you know, that it that it only means good things.

spk_0 Yeah, that's interesting news to think about Textron and absorb in that EAVAsian division.

spk_0 We don't know what's going to happen to the jobs. That's still kind of a question mark. So

spk_0 yeah, we'll be right back. This podcast is brought to you by Pilot Insurance Center.

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spk_0 Let's move on to something else we're going to talk about some more new technology for folks who

spk_0 fly out of towered fields that are contract towers of which Frederick is one to be honest with you.

spk_0 This is a pretty interesting news for you. The general aviation news. I had a little story on the

spk_0 fact that the FAA approved UAVionics's tower surveillance system. They received the FAA

spk_0 system design approval for its flight line airborne position reference tool. Let's go with a new

spk_0 abbreviation APRT. It's in deployment right now. Glacier Park out in Montana near Calispell.

spk_0 And so you have Vionics is the first provider of a situational awareness display for

spk_0 contract air control towers like we said. And it's really interesting. These towers, these

spk_0 contract towers of which there are 91 air traffic control towers that are not equipped with any

spk_0 form of surveillance. It provides real-time aircraft position information based on ADSB data.

spk_0 I think this is a good thing. Definitely. Yes, I understand not every aircraft has ADSB in it.

spk_0 We might hear more about that later with electronic and security devices that we've mentioned

spk_0 on the show a few times. And you're actually going to have a little bit of update on that in just

spk_0 a few minutes for us too. But I think this is helpful. Situational awareness for air traffic

spk_0 controllers will help improve their overall service. Number one, identify aircraft non-communication

spk_0 with the tower. Number two, quickly validate possible transponder concerns. Number three,

spk_0 improve the ability to assist distressed aircraft. Number four, as well as provide traffic

spk_0 and terrain information. Those are five good reasons to have this new technology in a tower near you.

spk_0 That's a contract tower. Exactly. You know, there have been several of these new tools that have

spk_0 been implemented in different towers across the country. And I can't remember which one it was in

spk_0 San Diego, but one of these tools that isn't that old ended up averting a collision between two

spk_0 aircraft that could have cost a lot of lives. So yeah, use technology to its advantage. And more

spk_0 eyes on the field of aircraft that are out there, the more the better, I think. Exactly.

spk_0 I'm okay with ADSB. Now, I understand there's still some concerns about it. And you'll tell

spk_0 us a little bit about that in a minute. But nonetheless, anything that would help a controller

spk_0 separate traffic and potentially avoid a mid-air, which is what we all fear would be a good thing.

spk_0 Yeah. And again, there are some issues with that. There's some technology that still needs to

spk_0 come on board to make this all solid. But anyway, historically, controlling without

spk_0 surveillance tool, particularly in regions with challenging terrain, a low visibility like the

spk_0 mountain west makes perfect sense for Glisha Park. Yeah. There's limitations out there that would

spk_0 help you avoid some of that. So I think this will be interesting. I'm not sure of the timeline

spk_0 that this technology will be rolled out in. But UAVionics is a company that's on the move. They do a

spk_0 lot of other things that we do not talk about because they have their hand in a lot of government

spk_0 ops that we're not privy to. Yeah. I do know that they have a big hand in the drone world. So

spk_0 it's not a bad idea that they're seeing it from a couple of different standpoints, really,

spk_0 and seeing how how technology can help us out. So keep your eyes peeled for flight line, airborne

spk_0 position reference tools, APRT at contract towers across the United States. And speaking of ADSB,

spk_0 bring us into the next one. Yeah, absolutely. So let's let's take a little trip down to Washington.

spk_0 So the US Senate Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation, it has that has the

spk_0 jurisdiction over aviation. I'm, you know, we've talked about this committee multiple times in the

spk_0 past. They have passed the rotor act and that stands for rotorcraft operations, transparency,

spk_0 and oversight reform. The biggest reason that this bill has been in the news is because it's the

spk_0 first one that directly addresses some of the issues that came up after the mid air and DC

spk_0 between the PSA flight and the military helicopter back in January, just so tragic. Right. So what

spk_0 this bill does is it does a couple of things that the biggest headline you've probably seen outside

spk_0 of general aviation industry news is it ends the military's exception to not use ADSB except in

spk_0 very rare circumstances. So if you're on a training flight, you're going to be using ADSB.

spk_0 Now, the biggest impact for GA, though, another big part of this bill is that it would mandate the

spk_0 use of ADSB in for any aircraft flying where ADSB out is already required. So what does that mean?

spk_0 If you fly in class A, B, or C airspace, you already have to have ADSB out. That was part of the

spk_0 mandate five years ago. That was the mandate five years ago. Now you would be required to use ADSB in.

spk_0 Now ADSB out has to be installed on your aircraft. There can be a significant cost to that.

spk_0 What's significant about this is that AOPA advocated strongly for and there's language in this

spk_0 bill to this effect. If you fly an aircraft that weighs less than 12,500 pounds and you're operating

spk_0 under part 91, which most of us probably are, you can use a portable ADSB in device to comply with

spk_0 this mandate. So if you've got your iPad and you've got a stratus or a century on the window,

spk_0 that would be compliant. It seems under this bill. Okay. David, this is just a big win for GA.

spk_0 And you know, the bill is only passed the Senate committee. So it still has to go to the full Senate.

spk_0 We may see changes there. It has to go to the house. We may see changes there. But as it stands

spk_0 right now, there would not be a significant impact to GA under this bill because many of us are

spk_0 already flying with these devices to begin with. I see what you're saying. Perhaps some of the

spk_0 devices that we have now would be grandfathered in. Maybe there be some newer lower cost devices

spk_0 that folks can use in, say, gliders or aircraft without electrical systems because there have already

spk_0 been exceptions for non-electrical system aircraft operating within some of these class B air spaces

spk_0 where you need that kind of ADSB out. Yeah, exactly. So, um, they'd be good if we had a new device.

spk_0 So it's inexpensive. You can charge it up, put it in there, help people see each other,

spk_0 and that would begin. Help the last story, the UAVionics, the new contract tower technology that

spk_0 can help that out too. All these things are linked in some way or another. Yeah, we'll have to see how

spk_0 this comes together moving forward. Definitely. By speaking of moving forward, we do have some bad

spk_0 news about some things that we thought were going to move forward. Right now, as we record this,

spk_0 a government shutdown, you know, is closing the FAA, Academy, and Oklahoma City, some aspects of it.

spk_0 Halting the pipeline of new air traffic controllers because of some technology specialists that are

spk_0 not working or not getting paid. Controllers and technicians, they're going unpaid right now,

spk_0 prompting new legislation to ensure that the FAA remains operational during funding lapses.

spk_0 And the looming shortage and financial instability does threaten to disrupt GA operations nationwide

spk_0 in addition to commercial operations, which we have already seen strain under the continued shutdown.

spk_0 So even though a bumble through some of that, let me explain what is happening right now because

spk_0 the FAA Academy, this is where all air traffic controllers, almost all air traffic controllers go

spk_0 there. We've recently talked about some specific aviation schools that can train air traffic

spk_0 controllers among their programs, but the majority of ATC personnel coming up through the ranks go

spk_0 to Oklahoma City. What's happening right now is the professional aviation safety specialists.

spk_0 This is the union, which represents about 11,000 FAA and Department of Defense employees who

spk_0 install, maintain and certify air traffic control systems. They said that the ongoing government

spk_0 shutdown is threatening the agency's modernization plans and straining its workforce. These are the

spk_0 technicians that are keeping the equipment alive. And we've talked in the past about a patchwork

spk_0 of different technology that we are running right now and how new technology will be integrated into

spk_0 old technology so that the system stays running. So we're concerned that some of the technicians right

spk_0 now are feeling the pinch already. By the way, just a reminder, Jay, it can take three to five years

spk_0 to fully train a technician, just like it could take a number of years to fully train an air

spk_0 traffic controller. Any lapse in that training can push the clock back as what happened during

spk_0 the pandemic. That's something to think about right there. Exactly. A couple of things that TSA folks,

spk_0 if you're traveling commercially, they are going without a paycheck. More than 8,000 U.S. flights

spk_0 were delayed a week ago because of air traffic control absences. That's got that domino effect.

spk_0 We've talked about that a little bit on hangar talk already. Transportation Secretary Sean

spk_0 Duffy said the FAA experienced air traffic control staffing issues at 22 locations last week and added

spk_0 that additional shortage might be expected with more flight delays and cancellations in the days

spk_0 ahead. And that's without even thinking about weather cancellation. So that's an issue. Yeah,

spk_0 exactly. And as I mentioned a little while ago when I went flying last weekend, I know you're

spk_0 supposed to be very brief on the frequencies. I get it, you know, but I'm sorry. I cannot help

spk_0 but not thank the folks who are working for us and they're working for free right now. Jay,

spk_0 they missed their paycheck this past Tuesday. They are. And they don't know when they're going to

spk_0 get their next one too. I can't imagine feeling that in the midst of everything happening right now.

spk_0 You know, something I did, David, I went back and looked at the DOT's shutdown plan the day before

spk_0 the shutdown, they put out a 33 page PDF on all the different agencies and the impact that the

spk_0 government shutdown would have there. About 75% of the FAA is still working. That's good. Yeah,

spk_0 it is. It is if only they could get paid. Well, you're right. That's a good point. They're

spk_0 working by they're not getting paid right? Exactly. And so air traffic control still working,

spk_0 obviously like we've talked about the plan says that air traffic control hiring is actually still

spk_0 continuing, even if the academy shuts the hiring would continue field training for controllers would

spk_0 continue. Airman medical certifications, which we've seen with a lot of AOPA members reaching out,

spk_0 that we know that the medical certification staff is still working along with aircraft and airman

spk_0 registries. There hasn't been a slowdown in the medical certifications that we can tell exactly.

spk_0 We haven't we haven't seen anything like that. And you know, something else too is on the big

spk_0 ATC modernization efforts that we've talked about. Those being funded from a different bill earlier

spk_0 this year, those are actually still continuing. That is a funded project. So that is also good.

spk_0 One thing I was going to say, Jay, I do remember that bids were supposed to be coming in as we speak

spk_0 now as of about a month ago. The FAA has sent out a notice. They wanted bids for new technology.

spk_0 So you would hope that that would continue. And you said that the money is coming from a different

spk_0 pool. So it sounds like it is. Exactly. I don't know, you know, of anything that's coming down the

spk_0 pike. But if the schedule from before the shutdown continues, if these modernization efforts really

spk_0 aren't affected, the submittal that the companies were able to submit their contracts to be the lead

spk_0 integrator of this entire project up through I think it was September 21st or so. And the FAA and DOT

spk_0 said that they would likely name the company that wins that bid around the end of October,

spk_0 the start of November. So we may be seeing it here in the coming days. That's interesting.

spk_0 But it is nice to know that certain safety protocols are still in place. Safety mechanisms.

spk_0 We had heard all along that anything that affected safety would still be going on and folks would

spk_0 still be on the job. But we want to get everyone else paid meanwhile though. Absolutely. I was just

spk_0 going to mention the couple of other key takeaways I had is with the Academy shutting down,

spk_0 assuming it happens, that would expand the list of functions that have closed there. And there

spk_0 are some, you know, that we've heard of before the aviation rulemaking that has not happened

spk_0 since the shutdown air traffic performance analysis looking at the overall status of the

spk_0 national airspace system. That's not happening. Law enforcement assistance support that has stopped

spk_0 as well as continuity of operations planning. So you mentioned a minute ago rulemaking is not

spk_0 happening right now. Jay, I'm just going to ask, what if there was some kind of a mandatory AD

spk_0 that was coming down the pike? Is that mechanism on hold right now? I'm unclear.

spk_0 Good question. So that airworthiness directives are slotted separately in the shutdown plan.

spk_0 Airworthiness directives are still also good to go that they are still happening.

spk_0 Moving ahead. Moving ahead. Yes. Exactly. Even though the workers there may not be getting a paycheck.

spk_0 All right. Might be something like, something like airspace or other concerns. There might be a

spk_0 halt to that. One of the big buzzwords lately is the Beyond Visual Line of Site rulemaking. I know

spk_0 that Alicia and I on the last episode we talked about the fact that there were more than a million

spk_0 responses to that proposition. And then the due date I want to say was October 6th, but then

spk_0 the shutdown occurred on October 1st. So we don't know if there were even more responses to NPRM

spk_0 that we haven't heard about. Yeah. And you know, I'm sure you guys talked about it last time,

spk_0 but if you haven't seen the story on AOPA.org about AOPA's comments, there are some significant

spk_0 concerns for GA as part of the part 108 NPRM. So feel free to take a look at that.

spk_0 Well, keep us posted on that, Jay. We'll do. Meanwhile, that's a lot of news to go over in this

spk_0 a short amount of time. Let's go ahead and throw it over to Pilar Wolfstiller and the auto fandom

spk_0 3500 mockup.

spk_0 So can you start off with your name and your position and your company? Yep. Paul Tao,

spk_0 my position is CEO for auto aviation. And what does auto aviation do? We are an OEM,

spk_0 original equipment manufacturer of a brand new type of aircraft designed in a kind of a

spk_0 revolutionary new aerodynamic technology, otherwise known as laminar flow. Most all aircraft have

spk_0 been designed in turbulent flow. OERS is designed in laminar flow to take advantage of laminar flow.

spk_0 And as a result, it dramatically reduces the fuel consumption by 60%. So it's a kind of a huge

spk_0 breakthrough. It takes both very advanced computation fluid dynamics to be able to optimize the

spk_0 shapes to be able to maintain laminar flow. And then it takes entirely new manufacturing techniques

spk_0 out of carbon fiber that are very, very smooth, very precise to throw in 1,000th of an inch

spk_0 waviness standards to be able to manufacture and are playing a maintain laminar flow.

spk_0 We're doing both. It's a super midget with great performance.

spk_0 And it looks a little different from the jets that we see on the market today.

spk_0 What kind of a timeline are you looking at? What kind of a market are you talking about?

spk_0 So we have been developing laminar flow for almost a decade and a half. So it's taken a long time

spk_0 to not only build our own custom proprietary algorithms on top of computational fluid dynamics

spk_0 systems to be able to predict laminar flow, but also all the wind tunnel testing that we've done

spk_0 to make sure that it actually achieves laminar flow. We started back in 2014, we built first a

spk_0 technology prototype to test that we could actually operationalize the laminar flow airplane

spk_0 and fly it for two years. We did that between 2017 and 19 and then we started work right after

spk_0 the pandemic in 22 on a new commercial aircraft. A super mid aircraft seats nine passengers, it

spk_0 goes 3,500 nautical miles, flies at 51,000 feet. That's its normal cruise altitude, not it's maximum.

spk_0 It's its typical cruise altitude and it's a .8 Mach aircraft, transonic aircraft.

spk_0 And that aircraft is finishing design now. We're really launching it at the Paris Air Show.

spk_0 We have ordered all of the major systems and components which will be manufactured and come

spk_0 together next year and first flight tests will be in 2027. And what market are you talking?

spk_0 We're talking the business aviation market, the super mid sector, which I call the sweet spot

spk_0 of the business aviation market. It is the intercontinental intercontinental aircraft or coast to

spk_0 coast aircraft across the United States. It can also go transcontinental over to Europe and back.

spk_0 So the range is going to be about 3,500 nautical miles? I was speaking to your colleague just now and

spk_0 he was saying that all of your components are FAA certified already. So you're taking those and

spk_0 just putting it to the ground. A lot of the internal systems are already FAA certified like our engine.

spk_0 Our engine has 13 million hours on it. It's the Williams International FJ-44 engine and that

spk_0 is certified. A lot of our avionics are already certified. Our landing gear is a derivative,

spk_0 another set of landing gear. So it's very environmental systems and deicing and flight control systems

spk_0 are already certified. They have to be re-certified on air aircraft. But you have a huge leg up

spk_0 when you're using what we call commercial off the shelf or coasts systems internally. We did that

spk_0 on purpose because the one miracle on our project is the outer mold line, the outer shape of the

spk_0 aircraft. And we want to get through certification with that. We want everything else to kind of be a

spk_0 cakewalk. And so that's why most of the systems we select have already been pre-certified on

spk_0 other aircraft. So it's part 23. Part 23 airplane? 19,000 pounds. Maximum takeoff weight.

spk_0 And I'm looking at pictures now with the interior. You can talk a little bit about what's special

spk_0 about the interior of your aircraft. The interior is unusual. So our aircraft, particularly the

spk_0 fuselage is also unusual. It's a very prescribed teardrop curvature shape. It's not your typical tube

spk_0 style fuselage. And that is to maximize the effect of laminar flow. It's also produces a larger

spk_0 cabin. Our cabin is six foot five inches tall. That's actually taller than a G650 at a,

spk_0 at its widest point. And to be able to maximize that flow up of 51,000 feet, we also have no

spk_0 external windows. Now we have lots of cameras around the aircraft that are piping in very high

spk_0 fidelity digital into a internal graphics processing system that then displays the outer world

spk_0 on displays inside the aircraft. So you actually get a much more vivid view of the outside world

spk_0 with much larger screens and ones that don't convey the glare of the sun. So you get a much

spk_0 more beautiful, highly optimized image. And then of course at night or in the clouds, we put on a

spk_0 synthetic image automatically. So you get a view of the world that is synthetically generated

spk_0 or augmented reality generated. And then of course we can use all those displays for other purposes.

spk_0 So we call it an infotainment system. So it will pipe in zoom calls. We have cameras on the inside

spk_0 of the plane. We also piping in all of the streaming services from Netflix to Hulu to you name it.

spk_0 So these panorama windows style things that I'm seeing in your video here. They're actually screens.

spk_0 They're actually screen broadcasting what's outside. Yes, that's exactly right. Yeah, they're

spk_0 also stabilizing the image. So it's a much cleaner, more beautiful image that has no glare,

spk_0 no radiation. So you have no need to close your screens and limit a dark little tube throughout your

spk_0 flight. It's also somewhat required because we fly very high at 51,000 feet. The glare is much

spk_0 greater at that altitude. It's like being on the top of Mount Everest and then add five more miles.

spk_0 Very glary up at that altitude. So most people would be closing their shades anyway.

spk_0 What's your timeline? When are we going to see what it is on the market? Flight test vehicle

spk_0 one will be very exciting. That's in 2027. We're also building four more. So those will go into certification

spk_0 in 2027. And then we will actually begin to mark start marketing delivery positions after flight

spk_0 test vehicle one. And then we expect certification at the end of 2029 beginning of 2030. And then

spk_0 we can start shipping aircraft. Do you have any pre-orders or MOUs or? We do. We plan to build 1600

spk_0 aircraft between 2030 and 2040. And roughly a third of those are already spoken for with some very

spk_0 large orders that we will announce in September. Very excited about that. But the aircraft

spk_0 has a 60% lower fuel burn than its competition. 50% less maintenance costs because the engine is

spk_0 half the size. And it's also because the aircraft is lighter. It's less expensive to manufacture than

spk_0 the competition. So we can lower the price by about 30%. So it's a very very competitive aircraft

spk_0 against its competition. We expect to sell a lot of them. And who is your main competition?

spk_0 The main competition is the Bombardia Challenge or 350 or 3500 as they call it now. The

spk_0 Creator 500 600 series of aircraft. And then the Cessna Latitude Longitude series of aircraft. We

spk_0 fit in all those classes as a super mid aircraft. But we also can sell a version of it where we might

spk_0 concatenate the range to a shorter distance. So it would be more of a mid. And then we also plan

spk_0 a derivative. After the first aircraft, the 3500 certified, we also have a second aircraft coming

spk_0 online, which will have center body fuel tanks. We'll allow it to go 4,000 nautical miles. So we'll

spk_0 have out of this platform a range of aircraft from 3,000 all the way to 4,000 nautical miles.

spk_0 Can you speak a little bit about the company? How large are you? How many employees? Where are you

spk_0 located? We just announced that we're moving to Florida. Jacksonville, Florida. We obtained and

spk_0 incredible incentive package to go to Florida of about 515 million. We have 250 acres that they've

spk_0 given us on Cecil Airfield. So very excited about that. We'll be building our production

spk_0 facility there. And we have about 120 direct employees and about 100 non-direct or full-time

spk_0 equivalent employees. So a little over 200 employees right now in the company growing quite a bit.

spk_0 We're doubling almost every year at this stage. So rapidly going into the stage of production here.

spk_0 So we're starting to build our factory, which is going to be a big effort. So we're spilling

spk_0 up for that. And when do you expect that factory to be complete? We are breaking ground next year.

spk_0 We just signed all the leases literally last week and we announced the agreement with Florida

spk_0 actually yesterday at the Paris Air Show. We break ground next year. On the factory, it will be

spk_0 about an 850,000 square foot facility sitting across 250 acres. Some of our supply chain around the

spk_0 world will also be building what we call dedicated and integrated supply chain factory on our

spk_0 facility. So some of our components will be built actually on our aerospace campus.

spk_0 How did you personally come to this project? Very interesting. This was the brainchild of a guy named

spk_0 Bill Otto, senior. He's a physicist and his life-long pursuit has been laminar flow both

spk_0 in the ocean as well as in water, in fluids, and in the air. He began working on this in the 2000

spk_0 period of time and really perfected laminar flow. I got involved in 2022 when they needed a CEO to

spk_0 really take it to the next level from a production customer and build a factory out of it.

spk_0 And so we're very excited about that. Progression into creating a production ready company that

spk_0 can ship product. You obviously have to have a passion for aviation to take on a project like this.

spk_0 Yes, I do. I am also a physicist but also spent much of my time as an aerospace engineer.

spk_0 But I've also started various companies taking to public and so I've got a lot of experience

spk_0 growing from a startup into a publicly traded company. And I'm also pilot and I also started

spk_0 a company called ExoJet which was one of the second and third largest business aviation

spk_0 operators in the country. So I've got a lot of experience in the space. What do you fly?

spk_0 I fly a king air B200, my favorite plane. So what are you looking to gain from coming here to

spk_0 the Paris air show? What's your what's your we had a number of big announcements. One was the

spk_0 Florida arrangement where we're moving our headquarters to Florida. We're also announcing that

spk_0 we will be meeting only meeting the Paris IKO agreement. That's the agreement to hit carbon

spk_0 neutral by 2050. We kind of modify this because there are really two components to global warming

spk_0 forces produced by aviation. One is CO2. The second is the formation of induced clouds by aircraft or

spk_0 otherwise known as contrails. So there are about 50% of the global warming forces come from fuel.

spk_0 The other 50% come from contrails. Because of the altitude we fly at we produce no contrails. So

spk_0 we're automatically half half the contrails. And then if because our fuel consumption is so much

spk_0 lower you can actually afford to put staff in our aircraft and the CO2 emissions are down by 92%.

spk_0 And yet your cost per hour is still 43% burning staff over our competition that's burning the old

spk_0 fashion JETA. So we're also announcing that we are exceeding the goals of the Paris IKO 2050

spk_0 carbon neutral objectives. We're doing that with the launch of our aircraft in 2030 or almost 20 years

spk_0 sooner. And so it can run 100% staff. Absolutely. Yeah our engines are already certified to run on

spk_0 staff. Great. So it's the first time you're at the Paris Air Show? No I've been here quite a few

spk_0 times before. And in your personal capacity or as part of you? In other business capacities.

spk_0 What do you like about it? It's exciting to be in Paris. The weather is fantastic. It's a great

spk_0 venue with a lot of different organizations and companies and great to see aviation get together

spk_0 in such a big way. So it's fun. Is there anything about auto aviation I should know or about your

spk_0 aircraft that I should know that I have not asked? I would say that when flight test vehicle flies

spk_0 that the the performance you don't come across performance gains this dramatic even in a decade or

spk_0 over across a couple of decades. This is a 50% gain in efficiency in aviation and that is something

spk_0 that happens once and a half century maybe once in a century. Big performance gains like 787 it

spk_0 is 18% gain. The max with the with various different gear tober fan and other engine technologies

spk_0 over the last 20 years has been roughly a 15 to 17 to 20% gain. This is a 50% gain in all coming

spk_0 out of the aerodynamics switching from turbulent flow to laminar flow and switching to a new type

spk_0 of material system manufacturing system which is carbon fiber and resin transfer molding. And I

spk_0 this all aircraft over the next 70 years are going to be built this way so we're really excited to

spk_0 get this airplane to the market. We were obviously going to be using this technology going forward

spk_0 but like electric cars we think other manufacturers will follow suit. Well we can't wait to see it. Thank

spk_0 you very much. I really appreciate your time today. Thank you.

spk_0 Okay Jay you're at the NB AA show just a few weeks ago you had a chance to view

spk_0 the auto Phantom 3500 mockup without windows. What did you think about it and what's the buzz?

spk_0 So I you know that was my first time at that show and there's different aircraft throughout

spk_0 you know there's some EV tools there is a there was a serious vision jet there were a lot of

spk_0 different aircraft that you know I'd seen before I hadn't seen the auto Phantom 3500 before the event

spk_0 maybe one picture or something but when I was walking to another booth and I kind of saw as I turn

spk_0 the corner and I was like what in the world oh and it clicked what it was and I go up there and you

spk_0 would not imagine the number of people that were standing there taking pictures in front of it

spk_0 all of us were just kind of enamored by the fact that this is it just looks so different but it

spk_0 looks really sleek I thought it was really cool well it's interesting the fact that it has we've

spk_0 mentioned a few times already that it doesn't have windows well what it does have it has video cameras

spk_0 that relay what's outside the aircraft to the passengers inside the aircraft you know that

spk_0 aircraft is supposed to have a range of 3500 miles and flight of 51,000 feet mock 0.8 schedule for

spk_0 2027 the first flight yeah we'll have to see how that shakes down I mean but that's interesting use

spk_0 of technology and we appreciate Pilar for tracking them down over at the Paris airshow what an

spk_0 assignment that's the one I want next time yeah same here all right Jay well we appreciate you

spk_0 sitting in today with us that's all the time we have sadly yeah our audio engineer is Austin

spk_0 and don't forget you can find us at apa.org slash hangar talk or wherever you get your podcast

spk_0 Dave I will see you next time see you next time Jay I want a full report of your next flight

spk_0 when we get together again sounds great hangar talk from a OPA your freedom to fly

spk_0 hey listeners if you're enjoying this podcast consider checking out another podcast from AOPA

spk_0 called there I was we talk with general aviation pilots who have encountered unpredictable scenarios

spk_0 in flight and we learn from the knowledge and skills they use to fly safely out of them join me

spk_0 David O'Leary your host as I interview pilots about engine failures airframe icing flight control

spk_0 malfunctions and everything in between find there I was at aopa.org Apple podcasts spotify

spk_0 or wherever you get your podcasts

Episode 240: Otto Aerospace CEO Paul Touw talks teardrop, laminar flow, and Phantom 3500

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