Technology
Trish Seidel: "My approach to SEO has completely changed!" Tales from Scaling Content Production at Springly & Moving to Djust
In this episode, Trish Seidel shares her transformative journey in SEO and content production, detailing her experiences at Springly and her new role at Djust. She discusses the strategic shift from q...
Trish Seidel: "My approach to SEO has completely changed!" Tales from Scaling Content Production at Springly & Moving to Djust
Technology •
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Interactive Transcript
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Hi, Trish. Welcome to the podcast.
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Hi. Thanks.
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Yeah, how are you doing?
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I'm good. I'm so good. It's the first sunny day in Paris in
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months. It feels like. So it's giving me energy.
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That's normally good thing. Like it starts in Paris and then we get a sunny day as well.
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I'm hoping that it comes up to you. I'm sending it your way.
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Thanks so much.
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Anyway, so the podcast has been on pause. I feel like I should address that.
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This would be the first one that comes out after like two months or something.
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Yeah, been busy.
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Oh, yeah.
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Been like really getting trying to get back on the horse.
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Is that the right metaphor?
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I think so. Yeah. Sounds good to me.
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Yeah. But anyway, also, something else we should address is that we've done this podcast
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before. We sure have.
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No one heard the first one because I didn't release it because I took so long to release it,
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it came a little bit outdated, which is it is cool because we get another stab at it.
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Yeah, totally.
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Yeah, but so thanks so much for coming on and for doing this twice.
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Always.
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One of the good things about that also is that you change companies and change like environments
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and you're now head of content at just.
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Yeah.
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And it's very confusing how to say it.
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Yeah, it's about DJ UST for anyone listening.
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So this is a perfect opportunity actually to like look at the difference in
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ways of approaching SEO in different companies.
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So like, spring Lee, the company where we did the first interview was like product led,
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right? It was like, you could sign up for yourself and then pay like more like $45
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month or something, whereas things are a little different adjust so we can kind of discuss
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the nuances in different SEO strategies and things like that, which is
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absolutely.
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It's actually such an important topic because there's one strategy that doesn't work for everyone
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and there's a lot to learn.
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It's an extremely educational, so really happy to be able to like compare and contrast
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and have the opportunity to do all that learning for sure.
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Yeah, yeah, that's so cool.
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And I also thought like we can look back now like when we first started talking about spring Lee,
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like you were in the weeds and also working there.
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So you kind of, you know, it's easy to like smooth over like the bad learnings or the things
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you wish you were doing differently and maybe yeah, I'm hoping now looking back you're not in
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the weeds. There might be like learnings that you would not do again if you did it.
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Absolutely. 100%.
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Perfect. Exciting.
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So why don't we start with spring Lee?
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Could you like tell us a story of what you did there?
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And like, I guess the results and what you were trying to do and that kind of background.
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Yeah, so spring Lee is actually an American branch of a French startup called Asso Connect
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and it's an ERP for nonprofit organizations.
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So it's basically to help people who help people.
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That's kind of the tagline and I was there for four years and when I started in 2019,
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we were right about to hit COVID.
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Like you were a month away, right?
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Or like the month or two before.
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And so when I was brought on, they had just opened the US market.
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I would buy just opened.
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I mean, had a landing page in English and the product had been translated in English.
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And so I was responsible for helping the company expand to the United States in all ways.
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So I started off with helping with the product, started off with helping the sales.
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And then I niched down into marketing and we found that not just during the pandemic,
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but in general, opening a new market, we were basically mainly focusing on growth tactics,
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like growth marketing tactics, lots of ads, lots of cold mailing, kind of growth hacking
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and trying to get like quick wins and it wasn't working.
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It was impossible.
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We were hemorrhaging cash.
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The pandemic wasn't a full swing in that we were just making mistake after mistake.
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And so we kind of sat down and we're just like,
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didn't know what to do.
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And what is what is everyone do when they don't know what to do in marketing is that you kind of go
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back to the foundational aspects of good quality marketing, which ends up being content and ends
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up being SEO and kind of realizing that maybe the quick wins, there are no quick wins,
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especially you in tackling a market as big as the United States and to maybe just do it a little
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bit slower. And so what we decided to do was based off of a French strategy that we had been
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successful in but much slower, they had, you know, they were very well referenced and a really good
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website. Their articles are ranking well. So we basically were able to adapt the strategy
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and scale it. And so we started off with producing, we were producing one or two articles a week
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in house and then we scaled eventually within a year to producing 25 articles a week and we
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ended up growing by 1800 percent in 18 months. Nice. Yeah, it was crazy. Yeah, it was wild.
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25 a week is a lot, isn't it? It was. And thankfully we had an army of freelancers that were behind us,
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helping us. We had created a really, really sophisticated yet simple content machine that was able
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to help us give us visibility on the entire process. And then we were able to hire a full-time
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content manager who was there to manage the day today so I could focus on other things. But,
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you know, it's a full-time job and a half just creating that much content, especially this is in the
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era before Chad GPT and before AI. So everything was completely human-written, all the griefs were
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human-written. And so as you can imagine, it was a huge time investment. I think you're probably a
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good thing you missed the AI thing. Yeah, probably also a lot of ways to streamline your processes when
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you'd like that high volume as well. Yeah, it's that in parts. So just to go back to the results,
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what was the traffic growth before? What was the before and after? Before we were basically starting
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from zero, right? So we were like, I even wanted to say like a thousand visits a month at one
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point and then we scaled to about a hundred thousand. I can't remember the exact numbers now that's
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been a while since I've left, but we were at a very quite stable growth of around a hundred
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thousand visits, organic visits per month in the end. So you know, fluctuating around there.
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Yeah, massive. Cool. And so how did you get by and is a question I want to know for like
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scaling content like that? Like you said, you're doing two a week. Like, were you seeing results
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from that and thought, let's scale it up? Not really. See, we're not releasing any results in the
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beginning because we weren't doing it strategically. Like, we were just kind of, you know, it was a
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team of me and my French colleagues. And at that point in my career, I knew very little about
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SEO, new, what good content was, but I didn't know really much about SEO. And so we were
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with the very limited time I had from my, the help of my French colleagues because they were
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focused on their market, which is completely normal. I was pulling keywords from Sam Russian,
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just kind of creating content, Willie Nile, I guess you could call it. And we weren't doing it
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strategically. There was not a lot of linking in even our way our website was structured,
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wasn't great because again, we were dedicating stuff to little time to this new market,
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etc. And once we started taking it seriously and decided that we wanted to scale, we put all of
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our time, money and effort into doing that. So we built out the website. We got off a subdomain,
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we run a HubSpot subdomain for our blog. We migrated onto a single domain, which was one of the
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biggest elements of success. That's when we really started seeing results. So we had started
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creating the content massively before that. But once we migrated off the subdomain, that's when
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we really started seeing great results. And then, yeah, so we started taking it seriously,
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honestly, we were seeing results very, very, very quickly. Nice. But yeah, and that fuels your
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fire, I suppose it's like you get the winds, create more buy-in and so on. Yeah. Exactly. And so we
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were planning on doing it for like a quarter, right? So for an entire quarter, I mean, it basically
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took us a whole month to migrate off the subdomain, because we wanted to do it well. We had experts come
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in, we had technical SEO experts come in and help us do this in a safe and secure way.
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I'm so that we weren't killing any success that we had already had. And so once we started
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creating the content massively for the quarter after that, that was when we're like, we're just
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going to test it and see if it works. And if not, we'll scale back. And if not, if it works,
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it'll scale up. And that's how we got the internal buy-in to add more budget, add more time, etc.
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Cool. I think one of the things that you're getting out there is one thing, it's a conversation I
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often have with clients around like before you scale content, like you want to make sure
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that you have these like strong foundations in place, like the website solid, like the blog solid,
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like the technical side is you're not building on something like shaky. Exactly. And this is the first
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conversation I had in my current position at just is that there was no SEO person, there was no
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content person before. And so again, same issue with subdomain on a blog on a subdomain. So the
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first thing that I did before even starting to create an SEO strategy or a content strategy was
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get ourselves audited technically, right? Because those technical SEO wizards, they're like
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magicians, they see things that I don't see as like an on-page SEO person, right? And so we got
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ourselves migrated off. We did a huge audit, fixed everything that we have a nice clean foundation
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to build on top of. Because like you said, otherwise, it should stay waste of time and money.
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Yeah, it really is an uphill battle if you don't have like the basics in place. So what kind of
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content did you create? Did you prioritize like certain types of content first? Did you do you
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know in clusters? Did you choose only top of funnel or only bought my funnel? Like, yeah, how did
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you approach like types of content? I'm a content cluster queen. I love a content cluster. And so we
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actually like most SaaS companies, we actually built our content clusters first before
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starting to produce content. And we built them based off of each feature of the software, right?
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So kind of a typical SaaS product-led SaaS strategies that your clusters can navigate around each
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major feature in your software. So that is what we did. And we started off with our primary cluster,
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which was our major feature, our best selling feature, the feature where we are most legitimate.
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And we did all the bottom of funnel content, then all the middle, then all the top.
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Amazing. Yeah, exactly. It's been being able to link them all together in a really logical way.
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And the linking came as much as it could in the moment. But obviously, if you're producing content
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in regards to how many good processes you have put in place, if the other content is created,
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you can't link it, right? So the linking, we would kind of constantly go back in and do all of
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the re-linking. And that again was a huge success factor for us.
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I mean, yeah, in terms of linking, so important. I think one thing would be good just to connect
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the dots even more for people listening, because that's actually very, very similar to how I would
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create a software company's content strategy. Well, you're really smart of me.
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Yeah, I might be put it back to you. Like, why is it that you would build a cluster around
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a feature? Like, what is the growth mechanism that you're kind of playing into there?
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Well, the funnel, all the content trickles down into something that is highly convertible, right?
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So the idea is to generate not just traffic, but to generate conversion, to generate revenue,
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to generate something called create a concrete metric, not just a vanity metric,
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that gives us business results. That is the goal of good, at least in my opinion, good marketing,
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good content marketing, so it drives revenue, right? And so, when all that top of funnel
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dribbles down to the bottom of funnel, which dribbles down to in theory, obviously, this is a much
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more complex thing in theory, but it's very simplified versus that it all trickles down to that
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really bottom of funnel article, blog article, or landing page that's going to help push that
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conversion through. Yeah, exactly. And it's like, if you target topics related to your feature,
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you're bringing in traffic with people from people who are searching something relevant,
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like the ability to kind of authentically teach them about your product or draw them into your funnel.
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Exactly. And they're primed by that topic.
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Absolutely. And it's not just like pure product pushing, is that you're giving them something
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that's relatable and you're able to put your products in front of an audience that's ready to
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hear about it, but not in a way that is not just like spammy, I guess. Exactly. And I think
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it works especially well with more like product led, especially if you have a free trial because
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they are the barrier to someone signing up, even on top of funnel content, like they could go from
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like, what is a keyword research to going like, oh, this company, HF does keyword research,
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I'm going to test that out, you know, there's actually a kind of shorter funnel, I think.
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So you built clusters around, you know, like the core functionality, the platform, then the features,
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and then you went from why, so why did you choose to do the bottom of funnel content first and then
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move up? Longer time to rank, I guess it was like the first priority of us being like, this is our
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most important content, we want to give it the longest possible to do really well. It's also the
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content that was the hardest to produce. And it's really wanted to get, I feel like once we could
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nail down the positioning and because again, don't forget that we were going into a new market,
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right? So the US market is much more tech mature than European markets or even the French market.
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So we positioned our product was a little bit different as well. And so nailing down that positioning
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and the way we talk about it and the features and like all of that really good concrete stuff made
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that top of funnel, those top of funnel topics that much easier to produce. First of all,
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getting this difficult stuff out of the way first, making sure that we had longer time to rank
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in that, you know, we were getting all of that good juice, SEO juice prepared.
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Yeah, it makes so much sense. Like, yeah, absolutely right. It's like the highest conversion rate
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potential. So you want to give it the most time to rank and like to start building some authority.
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But you're building everything else on top of it, like you're driving traffic to those blogs and
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also every writer wants to know about the product and like it just has a lot of benefits. Yeah,
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that lay afest. Yeah. Okay, let's talk a bit about the process. People love scaling content,
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such a hard thing to do, especially with writers and like there's a lot of process to it. I would
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love to know how you dealt with quality of content. What was your approach to making sure in your
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process there was quality? Did you have a very high buff quality where you more like a ship it and
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see what happens? No, yeah, I'm a stickler. I'm a big stickler and I think it maybe also could be one
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of my disadvantages and it as being a content creator. So we can get kind of in our own way sometimes.
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But we were producing the 25 articles a week. Obviously quality was a big question.
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Right. So again, this was before the AI era where now we think about quality very differently now
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and we did then. Right. But for us, when we were, it was about relationship, a relationship with
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our agency and our freelancers. So in the beginning, while we were scaling up to this 25 a week,
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we were writing all the briefs ourselves. Right. So we had myself, we had a few interns,
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we had some of my French colleagues, we were all writing like two or three briefs a week to build up,
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you know, first of all, our own skills and brief writing and making sure that we were controlling
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the narrative around the product and as well as defining the tone and giving our business expertise.
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Right. Because nonprofits are very particular, right. And their problems are very special and
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unique and we wanted to make sure that we give them the business context as well as the human
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context that they need, which obviously the writers don't have their not experts in nonprofits.
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That's okay. Like, that's not their job. Their job is to write. So that was the beginning. And
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then once we built that relationship out with our agency, they were able to, they had learned so much
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that they were able to produce a lot of the briefs themselves. And we were just kind of
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glossing over in the end, especially when we were moving towards the middle on top of funnel content,
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they were more glossing over it, making sure that we add in a point here or point there or whatever.
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But it was building that relationship was really essential to getting the briefs off our hands
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to make sure that quality was still very, very high. But I would determine every all the quality
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aspects to good quality brief writing for sure. So you mentioned there like about having to
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teach the writers about nonprofits and your products and stuff. Like, how did you approach that?
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Did you do it per brief? So in this content machine, we created incredibly detailed documentation.
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So we were able to give them all of the business context. We were able to have them read some
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of the really key articles about like the nonprofit statuses in the United States. They were able to
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give them industry reports. And I summarized a lot of those in the video so that it was a little
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bit easier to digest. They all had a very specific onboarding process. But it was kind of essential
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to making sure that they got onboarded quickly and efficiently. And there was not a lot of back and forth
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again because when we were doing 25 articles a week, you don't have the time to face to face in-depth
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onboarding, which is something that I'd like to do when I just it's something that we're doing
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is a much slower, much more in-depth onboarding for our freelancers. Again, it's not like a week long.
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It's an hour or two, you know, and you mean to face with agency. But yeah, so is there anything?
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Yeah, it does make sense. And I can reflect on that this because at the moment I'm bringing in new
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writers to my content operation. And for a while, I've relied on like a few very good writers who
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know everything about the client. They've been onboarded for a while. And I recently
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haven't boarded it. Well, I gave a writer an article and they weren't properly onboarded because
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I'd sort of assumed they could pick up the documentation and run with it. And so I can
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properly invest in the onboarding and get the first couple of drafts were like, oh, this is way
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of what's happening. But I realized after a little while it's like not that they're terrible
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writers. Actually, they just don't know anything about the industry. They spent way too much
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time stuck in technical detail. They didn't know anything about like the onboarding process,
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like so incredibly important. So when you have one client, like you're working in-house
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somewhere, you can make like you know everything. You have really detailed, you can make one really
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detailed package. But when you have like five, six, like 10, 20 clients, it's yeah, that onboarding
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documentation process becomes recently important as well. And I imagine all of like your clients
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onboard people differently if they even think about doing it, right? And so it's like I can imagine
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as someone who works with many clients at one time, like you coming up with your own onboarding
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process is essential. Yeah, for me, my clients expect the content and everything from me. So they
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don't do the onboarding. I do the onboarding. Okay. It's particularly one like that was just like a
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little gap that went wrong in the process because it was a new right. You have an onboarded new
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writers in a while. But it's always great. You know, yeah, exactly. It's great when you have these
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issues come up when you're like imagine if you're producing 25 hours, it was a week when an issue
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comes up. It's like, oh, yeah, you need a patchwork and then better for it. Yeah, like and I even
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to this day ask our freelancers and our account managers and whatever for regular feedback
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on the process. What's working for them? What's not working for them? What they're struggling with?
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What's taking them too long? Like by working with us so that we know what we need to improve.
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Because obviously, you know, they're thinking about our content all the time. Well, in theory,
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all the time, they have multiple clients, of course. But you know, we I'm doing a thousand other
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things. And so of course, having them push me to improve the process is really essential. And
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having people that you can do that with is great. Yeah, 100%. So maybe to wrap up springy, like
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it's like so many avenues that we could go down. But like looking back at like, you know,
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scaling so many articles in their short space of time and like building that up, like, what's
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your honest take? Like was it worth it? Why or why not? And if you could do things differently to get
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kind of a better return up investment, what would you do? So I think it's definitely worth it.
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I think it was a fantastic way to prove the efficiency and power of SEO. And again, it's not just
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like I know I spoke about the organic traffic metric behind it, like the 1800% growth in 18 months,
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but the conversion followed, right? So we were generating free trials out the wazoo. We were,
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you know, it really allowed us to put our sales time and other things, right? So to absolutely
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worth it, what mistake is like the biggest mistake that we made that I, if wow, we're to do the
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same thing again, is that we produce, produce, and set, we set and forget, right? There was a one
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point where we had kind of gone through majority of the keywords in our sector. We had like 700
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articles at one point. And at one point you saturate your market, like you can't, there's not much else
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you can be doing, right? In terms of keyword, then keyword research. So then we found ourselves
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going back and optimizing all these 700 articles. And it was incredibly painful. You know what
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it means? You weren't just optimizing the content. We were realizing that like some of the formats were
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different. A lot of the alt tags were missing. The images were far too heavy because we weren't really
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focused on that at that point. Like we didn't care. We're just like fix it later, right? We have to
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produce as much content as we can. We'll fix it later. And the kind of fix it later mentality is not
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necessarily sustainable in the long run. Like it will be great for this really micro, like this,
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the high high-per-speed growth. But you will plateau at one point, which is totally normal. It's how
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life works. It's how you know, search works. And so going back and optimizing them was a little
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bit, was a lot of it painful. I think I like to have really like strict standards on stuff like
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that because you're right. Like if you make the same short cut 700 times, you have to fix it 700 times
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at some point. Oh yes. And there's no way to automate it. No way. None. Yeah, it's crazy. Okay, cool.
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It's a kind of finish up our conversation overall. Let's go to like just and what's different about
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just works for you and like as a company, compared to Springley. And like how is it forcing you to
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approach SEO differently? So just is a very complex software. We are a B2B to be e-commerce. And so
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it's a SaaS product, but it's not like a product led, free trial generated product, right? So
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it's we do enterprise sales. The sales cycle is extremely long between you know, six to 12 months
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we're working with high profile clients, Fortune 500 companies. And so as you can imagine, the
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approach to SEO is vastly different, wildly different. And it's not big. And it's because we're not using
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SEO as like our primary growth tactic, right? And so when you're not using it as like the
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major channel acquisition, it takes a different lens. And so what we're doing is that I've built out
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an entire strategy. We didn't have an inbound funnel up until recently. Again, because enterprise
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sales mostly outbound sales, mostly events, mostly like thought leadership in a lot of
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sensitive the word. And so I'm focusing on being very intentional about the content that we create.
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And we're creating content in a much lower, slower rate. So we're creating about eight articles a
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month. So as you can imagine going from 25 a week, which is like 100 a month to eight a month,
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the scale looks very different. And the content is much more complex. And it's very research focused.
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So we're taking information from McKinsey, from Gartner, from you know, these really research
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specific organizations. And that's what a lot of our content, our bottom funnel content, is
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based off of and the scale and amount of keywords that we have found that are really, really
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intentional for us is much lower. We're not talking about 700 keywords anymore. We're talking
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about 150, you know, so very different. I've had this experience for sure, in the tech companies
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that I worked in, the target audience is maybe more senior, the buying cycle is longer,
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the product is more of a hard sell. At that point, those kind of people tend to not be searching
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very top of funnel stuff. At least not stuff that you can do in a basic way. They want you to bring
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the content that resonates has like much more needs, much more debts kind of thing.
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Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so we're targeting a C-suite level executives, again,
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of these Fortune 500 companies. So search and behavior is so different. And exactly. Yeah,
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so the top of funnel content, top of funnel is like what I would consider bottom of funnel for
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things like springy, you know. And so it's been extremely educational and a great lesson for me
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as like an SEO person who is mainly focused on product-led SaaS. And this like hyper grow through
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SEO, this is like a really good step back for me. And being like, okay, we can do things in a
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different way. And it still be quite as effective. And we're using AI to help us. So it's not AI,
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like it's not all AI generated content. But we're testing and learning with AI to help obviously
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reduce cost and increase, you know, article time and whatever. And but it's been super, super
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interesting learning. So what are you doing with AI? So we are using AI to help produce our
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top of funnel and middle of funnel keywords. And we're doing it in a very specific way where that
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we're not just like inserting a keyword into chat to be tea and having it built an article for us.
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We're actually building out the brief, a human brief. And then we're using very specific prompts to
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generate like section by section. So we're doing custom prompts per section per article. And then
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we're having it edited by a human. And so it doesn't look like chat to be content or it doesn't
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look like AI content when it's done, but it's fluid if it's fluidified. Is that a word in English?
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It's streamlined.
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Dream like. Thank you. Streamline the process. And we have a wonderful agency that is helping us do this.
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So so yeah. Interesting. So for me, like to challenge you that maybe like see sweet level content
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that needs expert insight and research and data and all this stuff. Is it not just taking you
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a lot longer than writing it to get AI to write that quality? Like how? You know, so it's taking me
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the same time to make a brief. So like the human generated our human articles, that's funny to say
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human articles versus the articles. The human 100% human, the bottom of funnel really important
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information is all human produced and it takes me the same time to write a brief for that or for an AI
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article. Then I'm finding all the reports and you know, highlighting sections that our agency can
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then go in and chat to be to or AI whatever AI I think is chat to be for to summarize it and just
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like, you know, clean it up. So you can them two hours. It's taking me my brief. It takes me the
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same time. Interesting. Cool. Well, we come into the end of our time. I'd love to keep going. But
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I think yeah, it's been brilliant. Thanks so much for coming on. Is there anything you want to
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shout out or like say to everyone before you go? Just follow me on LinkedIn, marketing big
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sisters, my brand and I'd love to get to know you and be your big sister if you give me that
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opportunity. So yeah, Trisha is an excellent person to follow on LinkedIn.