Trains on Trial

Interactive Transcript

spk_0 Hello and welcome to Rare Earth, your weekly check-in on the biggest and most interesting

spk_0 issues for our planet.

spk_0 I'm Helen Charsky.

spk_0 And I'm Tom Heap and today we're talking trains.

spk_0 Environmentalists tend to love trains.

spk_0 I'm pretty partial to a train myself and making a journey by rail can be up to 80% greener

spk_0 in terms of carbon emissions than doing it by car.

spk_0 This month we are celebrating 200 years of passenger rail travel.

spk_0 But it's not all backward looking there is a lot to get excited about in the future as

spk_0 well, exciting new inventions and innovations to make the railways even greener.

spk_0 Although there are perhaps some bits of history where maybe part of the blame for global warming

spk_0 can be pinned on the invention of the railways.

spk_0 But before we get there, Tom, both of us like trains a lot.

spk_0 They come along with a lot of romance.

spk_0 So let's start with a bit of romance, what's your most memorable train journey?

spk_0 Well, I'm going to go straight to the Caledonian sleeper going up Scotland.

spk_0 There is something about sleepers that are just inevitably romantic.

spk_0 And I'll have to say that sometimes the service on the Caledonian sleeper has been pretty poor.

spk_0 But nevertheless, it still feels extraordinary to have a dinner and a whiskey in

spk_0 Houston and wake up in Fort William.

spk_0 And also for people like me, it's a little bit James Bondy, a lot of things happened

spk_0 in trains on Bond movies.

spk_0 And so that's a pretty good one.

spk_0 On the kind of other end of the spectral reviews now, this time last year pretty much,

spk_0 I was in Japan.

spk_0 And just the quality of their trains is exceptional.

spk_0 There is a Japanese detective story where the key moment is that the fact that the person

spk_0 couldn't have seen across the platform because the two trains would have been blocking the

spk_0 view.

spk_0 It's that precise.

spk_0 And I just, that was extraordinary.

spk_0 I agree with you about the sleeper trains.

spk_0 I came back from Vienna on the sleeper train recently and it does feel like you're properly

spk_0 travelling.

spk_0 I really like that.

spk_0 And actually my favourite train I've ever been on was, I don't think it runs anymore,

spk_0 but it was a train to Copenhagen from Hamburg and the train went on a ferry.

spk_0 So it let little short train left Hamburg station and then it just rolled onto the ferry

spk_0 and then you got off and were on the ferry while it crossed the water and then you got back

spk_0 on the train and it was brilliant.

spk_0 I love that.

spk_0 The very fact that we kind of ask this question about trains, I think, is interesting.

spk_0 Because I mean, yeah, sure, for a lot of people, I think yourself, they're often just

spk_0 means of getting from me to be a fairly worker day.

spk_0 But there is something about this little mobile world that you're moving about on that

spk_0 encourages experience and stories and enjoying the journey as well as the destination.

spk_0 And of course, as you say, there's all this culture that's, you know, films and books

spk_0 and famous scenes and the orient express and all of that kind of stuff.

spk_0 And so we're carrying a lot of history into this.

spk_0 But as you said, I mean, when I was thinking about this before I trained just how I get

spk_0 around, I've never owned a car in the UK.

spk_0 I get about by train and bike.

spk_0 I live in cities.

spk_0 I've always lived in cities in the UK.

spk_0 And that's why I can do it.

spk_0 They're just a part of my life.

spk_0 But I do like the fact that they make you slow down in a world where the world is always

spk_0 pushing you to be faster and to do things instantly.

spk_0 And they offer you a moment where even though they can get places actually much more quickly

spk_0 than the none of forms of transport sometimes, you have to sit and see what's going on out

spk_0 of the window.

spk_0 And those moments are becoming increasingly rare in modern life.

spk_0 So I do like that.

spk_0 Keeping us on track today are director of policy and campaigns at the campaign for Better

spk_0 Transport, Sylvia Barrett, the journalist author and all-round rail expert.

spk_0 I was tempted to say guru, Christian Walmar and curator of the railway futures gallery

spk_0 at the National Railway Museum.

spk_0 And that's Rob Skargel.

spk_0 OK, well, let's get started on your favourite rail journeys.

spk_0 So Rob, you can go first.

spk_0 Tell us about your favourite rail journey.

spk_0 Yeah, last year my friend and I, there were six of us, we travelled to the Euros to watch

spk_0 England play in Germany.

spk_0 And we went from Leeds on the Azuma, then we went on the Eurostar, and then we went on

spk_0 the sleep train.

spk_0 So we went from Brussels all the way to Berlin and then travelled up to Hamburg and to

spk_0 Leipzig as well.

spk_0 And yeah, just had the best time.

spk_0 And a real advocate for that slow travel.

spk_0 I don't think we'd have had anywhere near the experience just hopping on a plane.

spk_0 So, yeah, it was fantastic.

spk_0 So, yeah, how about you?

spk_0 My favourite is any journey that I have taken on the train during our annual Better Transport

spk_0 Week.

spk_0 It's a campaign where we celebrate everything that's brilliant about public transport.

spk_0 And we have events all over the country and we travel by train invariably.

spk_0 We have a competition about the best scenic picture on the train.

spk_0 So we raise each other to make the best picture we can on a moving train, which can be quite

spk_0 difficult.

spk_0 Christian, you have many to choose from.

spk_0 I have a lot to choose from and I'm going to choose, I'm going to cheat and choose

spk_0 to.

spk_0 So in terms of scenery, undoubtedly the glacier express, which goes up from Kua in the

spk_0 plains of Switzerland up into the mountains and then through to Italy, is the most beautiful

spk_0 train journey in the world.

spk_0 It's very difficult to beat it.

spk_0 Whatever season you go, you go past lakes, which are completely still and the mountains

spk_0 are reflected in them.

spk_0 So you think there's a mountain up there and a mountain down there as well.

spk_0 So that's kind of definitely the most beautiful.

spk_0 But my most memorable is that as a child, I used to get taken from London to the south of

spk_0 France by train and we would get on at Kalle after taking the ferry.

spk_0 And we'd get on this train that would go around Paris and eventually by the next morning

spk_0 take us to Cannes and Nice.

spk_0 And waking up past Marseille and seeing the kind of red rocks of the Esterel mountains

spk_0 and the Mediterranean, it's a particularly beautiful journey.

spk_0 And as a child, that was just amazing.

spk_0 You'd kind of go to bed and allow to go to Paris and you'd wake up with the sea and the

spk_0 scenery and the possibility of going to the beach that afternoon, it was wonderful.

spk_0 It's a magic world changing machine.

spk_0 You close the curtains and it's one world and you open them again and there's a completely

spk_0 different world outside your window.

spk_0 Fabulous.

spk_0 There are plenty of programs marking this anniversary telling the story of the first

spk_0 200 years of train.

spk_0 So we want to do something a little bit different.

spk_0 Pick up the gavel and sort of historically at least put trains a little bit on trial.

spk_0 Given they were so linked to Kalle, have they been a net good or net bad thing for the

spk_0 environment?

spk_0 Well, let's start off with the obvious question.

spk_0 How good are trains for the environment today?

spk_0 Christian, I'll start that one with you.

spk_0 You can have a 7-800 people on the train which would replace a couple of hundred cars.

spk_0 So I think that we tend to underestimate just how important it is to get more people

spk_0 moving by train rather than car.

spk_0 And Sylvia, why do you think trains are so good for the environment today?

spk_0 Trains are already the most environmental surface transport mode.

spk_0 They only produce 1% of transport climate emissions and the research that we have done

spk_0 shows that if one person is traveling in the average car that produces five times as

spk_0 much carbon than if they were traveling on a train.

spk_0 And if the train is electrified, it's even greater, it's 10 times more carbon.

spk_0 Just to say that rail is an extremely efficient way of moving things.

spk_0 It was when there were no roads and it still is now even other railroads.

spk_0 We often compare the idea of driving a train to the idea of driving a car, but it's

spk_0 nothing like that because you've got way more friction with road travel.

spk_0 That's the thing with the railways.

spk_0 They can carry heavy loads with steel wheels on steel track because they have so little

spk_0 friction.

spk_0 And that's the beauty of the minute nutshell.

spk_0 So the idea here is that once you get it moving, I mean kind of like a billiard ball,

spk_0 it'll just keep rolling.

spk_0 And of course there is a bit of friction, but more or less it's just going to keep going.

spk_0 I've spoken with train drivers as a say it's very easy to get them started.

spk_0 It's making them stop for you and your money.

spk_0 Okay, the 200th anniversary we've been talking about is the Stockton and Darlington railway.

spk_0 And although it's a passenger anniversary, that railway is there because of coal, right?

spk_0 So coal is right in there at the start of this story.

spk_0 Christine, can you just set out how that works?

spk_0 Essentially one could see the Stockton and Darlington as part of a continuum, which maybe

spk_0 started some couple of hundred years before when you started getting wagonways, which

spk_0 were basically out of mines, you'd get the coal or the mineral, whatever, and either horses

spk_0 or people would push it up and then they would go on rails to the nearest waterway, maybe

spk_0 a mile or two, maybe sometimes a bit longer eventually there was a whole system of wagonways.

spk_0 And the Stockton and Darlington was, I mean, I think controversially because lots of train

spk_0 spotters will disagree with it, but I think it was the last of the wagonways because it's

spk_0 principle purpose.

spk_0 The questioning the birthday.

spk_0 I'm sort of, I would argue the Liverpool and Manchester, which comes five years later is more

spk_0 important, but we're the whole basis of this programme, so I better not kind of undermine that.

spk_0 But the Stockton and Darlington was really the last of the wagonways because it's main

spk_0 function was taking coal to a waterway where it's obviously much easier to transport.

spk_0 It did carry some people, it did have a locomotive hauling passengers, but most of all it was

spk_0 actually horses pulling wagons along it.

spk_0 The date itself, the bicentenary is celebrating the first modern railway journey because it was a

spk_0 steam-hold journey on a public railway that had fair paying passengers on it, but it was only one day

spk_0 and the next day locomotives were taking coal again.

spk_0 And that's why Christine said that the 1830s the day because that's when regular

spk_0 time-tailed services with steam-hold locomotives started to take place.

spk_0 Christine, we talked about the start of the railways, but there's been a lot of decades since then.

spk_0 Just give us a quick picture on how the railways developed and how and when they took off.

spk_0 Well, I think it's impossible to exaggerate the impact of the railways.

spk_0 They went faster than anything else before and they kept on getting more efficient as they

spk_0 went on. So within 20 years, we have 5,000 miles of railway.

spk_0 Wow. And that's, you know, if you think...

spk_0 I'm not really like 10,000 miles today or something.

spk_0 Well, we have about 11,000 now, but we went up to nearly 20,000 and we've cut back quite a

spk_0 lot of that. But the fact that they built this amount of railways so quickly, and remember,

spk_0 we don't have much power at the time. There's not kind of electric drills or anything else,

spk_0 they're building this massive amount of railways. And essentially, within kind of 20 years,

spk_0 they have much of the network that we have today. So it's transformational, not only in the way that

spk_0 it carries people and goods around so much quicker. So you could get from between London and New York

spk_0 in a few hours, rather than a few days. But also, it enables so much else to happen. So on the one hand,

spk_0 you get the creation of big railway companies, right? And they are the biggest companies that

spk_0 are the day and they have to have accounting systems and management systems and human resources systems,

spk_0 all of which didn't happen before. So they create really the preconditions for the spread of capitalism.

spk_0 But it's also the case that they were an enabler of burning fossil fuels. I mean, looking back at the

spk_0 consequences of the industrial revolution for the environment, if you're going to burn something,

spk_0 you've got to get that something to where it's needed to be. Not just in their own engines,

spk_0 but shipping it around. But shipping it around, OK?

spk_0 Your determined to give them a kicking. Well, I mean, yeah, of course, if nobody moved around at all

spk_0 and we didn't have any railways, we'd burn less fuel. But since it's an efficient way of getting

spk_0 people around, and since coal was there, the only way, yes, of course, railways contributed towards

spk_0 the climate change that we have today. But that's because they enabled capitalism and they

spk_0 enabled all these things to happen. It wasn't, you can't blame it on the railways,

spk_0 to blame it on the kind of political and economic system that they help create. Rob, what do you think?

spk_0 Yeah, I actually disagree. I think they are one of the root causes of the climate crisis.

spk_0 I think you're transporting lots and lots of coal from Newcastle, from County Durham,

spk_0 and you're transporting it eventually on the river sign, on the river where, taking it to London via

spk_0 the North Sea and then London becomes one of the biggest economies in the world because of coal.

spk_0 So, yes, we think of them as these coal-guzling steam machines, but actually they were transporting coal

spk_0 and then that developed the economy. I think we've acknowledged back in the day, especially railways

spk_0 were using a lot of fossil fuels to get around and indeed transporting them. Let's have a listen

spk_0 to this clip from 1936 when they were already looking back at a long rail history.

spk_0 The Royal Scott, which for over 70 years has left Houston for Scotland at 10am.

spk_0 My job is to keep a full head of steam in the boiler. This means shoving about six tons of coal

spk_0 into the fire between Houston and Carlisle. To show you how large this firebox is, I can tell you

spk_0 that the area of the Great Alone is 45 square feet. Just measure your greater

spk_0 tone and see what a different set is. Coal isn't the only thing that makes an engine go.

spk_0 This engine of ours will start out from Houston with 4000 gallons of water in a tender.

spk_0 Under the time she reaches Glasgow, she'll have used all that and another 15,000 gallons of

spk_0 so that we shall pick up well going at full speed. You'll have to take the microphone down on

spk_0 a flat form now if you don't want it to be carried to Carlisle with us.

spk_0 Feel all the rail infuse, yes, to the sign, which is a pleasure to bring that better archive.

spk_0 That was lovely and of course, to remind you of just how resource intensive these were.

spk_0 When does electrification come along?

spk_0 Well, actually the first electric train is in the early 20th century or even the late 19th century.

spk_0 The electric and diesel come along pretty much at the same sort of time, yes, and they then become

spk_0 alternatives and they have different advantages. So the electric trains, you need to create the

spk_0 infrastructure to deliver the electricity to the train and so that's kind of quite expensive,

spk_0 where diesel you just need the locomotives, but of course they're smellier and kind of not

spk_0 environmentally friendly. So we get electric for occasion, growing around the world,

spk_0 particularly in the post-war period, but it takes quite a long time to get rid of steam people,

spk_0 particularly railway managers like steam engines, they kind of attached to the very idea of them.

spk_0 So there are some places, particularly in the UK unfortunately, quite reluctant to get rid of steam.

spk_0 And then lo and behold, suddenly they realise that electric is more efficient, it's kind of more

spk_0 pleasant for the passengers and so some places get lots of electrification, whereas I'm afraid

spk_0 that UK has only 38% of its lines are electrified and that's very low in comparison with other places.

spk_0 We like our big steel dragons at Rob. There are so many opportunities, missed opportunities

spk_0 historically for electrification to have happened earlier. As Christine says, the history shows that

spk_0 you've got the first electric train, it's actually 1879 with Vernon von Seymans at the Berlin

spk_0 Trade exhibition and you've even got a batch of train developed by a Scottish chemist in the 1830s.

spk_0 We don't know what happened to it, but there is rumours that it was sabotaged and destroyed by

spk_0 people with invested interest in steam and there's lots of opportunities throughout where we should

spk_0 electrify earlier. We had this technology, we had it in Liverpool in 1904, so we always think of

spk_0 it as steam, diesel, then electric and that just isn't the case at all.

spk_0 Well, let's bring it up to the present and Sylvia, it's widely acknowledged now that railway

spk_0 is a more environmental way of getting around certainly than car, possibly not the coach, but we

spk_0 can park that for a minute. Why is it proving so difficult to sort of turn this desire for

spk_0 greener transport into actually expanding and developing and getting more people on the railway?

spk_0 We saw big cuts in the 1960s that are still plaguing Britain. Today we have many left behind

spk_0 neighborhoods that were completely cut out from the rail network in those years and they're still

spk_0 cut out today as a result that has really slowed down economic development, it has left people

spk_0 unable to reach economic opportunities. But on the other hand, we have seen some reversals of those cuts.

spk_0 The Dartmo and the Northumberland line, which have been recently opened up, actually faster past

spk_0 the expected demand on the railways, about five times as many people are using those railways

spk_0 within the first couple of years compared to what was projected. So that just demonstrates the

spk_0 latent demand there is there for rail. So to my question of why it isn't being realised, you'd say,

spk_0 well, governments need to be bolder and actually do it or what? Exactly, then it needs to be more

spk_0 services, more frequency to more communities to be able to get on the train. It's also a matter of

spk_0 cost. So some people are unable to afford train travel. We need to see much more focus on affordability

spk_0 of travel as well as the simplicity of the fair system. So one recent report says that we need to see

spk_0 a 40% growth in rail use by 2035 to achieve the UK's net zero target. So Christian, what's the

spk_0 situation when it comes to growth of the railways at the moment? Well, I think we've had a disaster

spk_0 in this country in terms of that because we've got the HS2 project, which was supposed to be the

spk_0 emblematic thing that would then have gone from London to Birmingham and to Manchester and also

spk_0 gone to Leeds. And instead, we've spent an awful lot of money on it and it really isn't going

spk_0 to be coming on stream until 2036 or possibly 2039. And that would have been a way.

spk_0 I'm only going to Birmingham. And I mean, I was being journeyed. The hospital rail only goes,

spk_0 please Tom, this is almost it's almost painfully personally painful for me because of my love

spk_0 of the railways. And so, you know, that would have been the engine of growth as it were of the

spk_0 railway network. It would have attracted a lot more people. So that's not going to happen.

spk_0 What we are suggesting is that Great British Railways, the new body that will coordinate the

spk_0 railways going forward. I'm packed. Great British railways for us a bit. Great British railways

spk_0 will be a new body created by the government to deliver and strategize the railways in the

spk_0 future. It will unite train and track. So it will look after the infrastructure and the services

spk_0 as a whole, which in the past has been fragmented. So arguably, it will deliver much better clarity

spk_0 and consistency for services going forward. This is a big opportunity over the next few years to

spk_0 really transform the passenger offer. At the moment, we are not seeing necessarily big levels of

spk_0 ambition to grow demand. But if we have to meet those 90 row targets, we need to really grow

spk_0 passenger demand and the potential is that. I mean, there was a big dip after COVID, I guess in

spk_0 use. You know, there was subsidies came along to keep the railways in business then. But we sort

spk_0 of passed that period now. Are there reasons Christian why rail is more expensive? And particularly,

spk_0 and this one drives me nuts, often more expensive than flights. Like, I want to take trains and I do

spk_0 as much as I can. But there are times when a flight is just a fraction of the price. And it's,

spk_0 there's no way I cannot believe it's less expensive to run that plane. I don't know, you know,

spk_0 how does that work? That's the case. We're talking of two completely different systems. Aviation

spk_0 is private and it's very much market-led. And they pay tax on fuel. And they pay tax on fuel, but

spk_0 they're not they're not subsidised overtly with money, but they are subsidised inherently, as you

spk_0 say, by not paying a tax on fuel. Isn't there an unfortunate economic fact that railways get

spk_0 billions from the taxpayer in subsidy, whereas car drivers are actually subsidising the government

spk_0 with fuel and vehicle tax. I can understand the Treasury saying, why should I give more to the

spk_0 big bubbles than railways? That's on the basis. I mean, you're not including the cost for car drivers

spk_0 of the whole roads program, for example, it's spent billions on roads. And I wish you weren't

spk_0 paying if you if you count in the proper cost of cars, which is the environmental dispensifits,

spk_0 hospitalisation for people who get injured, people who get killed and so on, if you actually

spk_0 cost to it. But let me just let me just let me just let me just look at money and money out. Let me

spk_0 let me take a lot of money out. Let me make a point that I think is the whole problem with the way

spk_0 that we look at transport, which is that we think that railways are subsidised. But as Sylvia

spk_0 was giving some examples where lines have been reopened completely transformed the economies of

spk_0 those areas, those left behind areas. And if you actually look at it in that way, what's called

spk_0 externalities by economists for railways are enormously positive, because they allow people to

spk_0 get to jobs. They enable people to travel more sustainably and so on. And we don't count that

spk_0 in the numbers. The Treasury doesn't count that. And that's what's wrong with our whole transport

spk_0 system. Is there a fact that we look at those headlines figures without understanding how transport

spk_0 impacts on people? But I mean Sylvia, it sounds like the problem here is that the payment point,

spk_0 the pain point is very obvious, but actually the benefits as Christian is saying are very

spk_0 dispersed and very diffuse. So yes, the numbers are that for every pound invested in the rail system,

spk_0 you get to pound 50 back as a return in terms of economic, social and environmental benefit.

spk_0 Whereas if you look at roads, for example, roads investment, frequently the benefit can be

spk_0 negative even. Okay, well let's come back to the climate environment aspects of this, because although

spk_0 we have said, and it's clearly true that the railways have a much lower carbon footprint,

spk_0 it's clearly not zero. So there is more work to do to decarbonise the railways. There's a lot

spk_0 of them, Stolburn diesel, that's still creating emissions. So what does this challenge look like for

spk_0 decarbonise future? What do we need to do? Yeah, I'm really glad you've asked that. So I suppose

spk_0 there's basically three things that the railways can do in response to the climate crisis. One of

spk_0 them's increased mode shift, which is getting more people and more goods onto the railways.

spk_0 One of them's decarbonised and the other one is build a climate resilient railways. So on

spk_0 decarbonisation, railway traction accounts for the greatest proportion of emissions within rail.

spk_0 That's the way that you power trains. So what we need to do is electrify. And when you can't

spk_0 electrify, because it costs a heck of a lot of money to electrify. And maybe on branch lines,

spk_0 you don't want to do that, because the passenger numbers aren't great enough. Then you've got to

spk_0 look at other ways of doing that, like battery, like maybe even solar, like hydrogen or something.

spk_0 But electrification is the answer to decarbonise interaction. And then beyond that, there's so many

spk_0 different ways that you can decarbonise when you start to think about the railways sort of in

spk_0 there in kind of the bigger sense of what they are. But the first and foremost thing that you need

spk_0 to be looking at is how do you power the trains and decarbonise from there?

spk_0 So I think the situation at the moment is that 40%. So by electrification, we mean wires,

spk_0 basically trains running along tracks that have wires running over or below them that the train

spk_0 is taking its energy from. About 40% of rail journeys in the UK are already electric. So there's a 60%

spk_0 gap, basically 60% of it is currently running on diesel. And if we want to decarbonise it,

spk_0 that's going to be the target. Another thing to add is that rail is a much easier way to reduce

spk_0 your carbon footprint than other common green behaviours. So it can be, if every driver in

spk_0 Gradbritten switch just one journey a year from driving to train, you would save the same electricity

spk_0 as it takes to power streetlights in the UK for half a year. So it's very significant.

spk_0 Great stat, I love that. Well this is Rare Earth, your weekly debate on the big issues in wildlife

spk_0 and the environment. Well today we're talking all things trains with Sylvia Barrett from the

spk_0 campaign for better transport, the journalist and author Christian Walmar and Rob Skargel from the

spk_0 National Railways. Well now most of us, when we're whizzing along on the train, probably don't think

spk_0 much about what's happening directly either side of the track. But there is a whole world in there

spk_0 and to tell us a bit more about that network rails by a diversity strategy manager. What a great

spk_0 job title. That's Neil Strong, he's joined us. All right Neil, first of all, why is there a

spk_0 biodiversity strategy manager? We have an estate that's about one and a half times the size of the

spk_0 Isle of White. It's 51,000 hectares. We go through every country in Britain, England, Scotland

spk_0 and Wales and we have that land, we have that opportunity, we are green corridor through

spk_0 the whole of Britain. So we've got lots of biodiversity already. These are literally the

spk_0 cuttings and embankments on either side of the train where you often do actually see quite a lot of

spk_0 nature and sometimes wildlife and occasionally leaves on the line. Exactly, yes. Lots of vegetation,

spk_0 lots of habitat for many protective species across the whole of Britain. I mean there's two

spk_0 immediate, like I can think of two very good things about this habitat. One is that it's relatively

spk_0 undisturbed because we assume you know when he goes there. And the other one is that it's all connected

spk_0 up. We spend a lot of time when we talk about biodiversity habitat of animals being kind of

spk_0 trapped in little islands with humanity all around, but this is kind of, it's not just travel

spk_0 ways for humans, it's travel ways for animals as well. So what sort of things happen in this

spk_0 weird space on either side of the railways? I mean that is that travel. The loss of a few years ago,

spk_0 bigger, better, more joined up. We can't get bigger. We're only the average width from the rail

spk_0 to the fence. There's only 12 metres. There's not a lot of space, but we join everything up. We go

spk_0 through every national park. We go through every local authority and as I said every country.

spk_0 You know, it's an amazing opportunity for those species, the isolated communities that are

spk_0 struggling with the land use outside the fence. We've got that undisturbed area. Nobody can go

spk_0 there unless you're trespassing. And you know, we're managing that and allowing things to be on our

spk_0 side of the fence as well as the trains, which is obviously the important bit. Give us some

spk_0 examples of unusual things that dwell there. We have, I mean we've got rare plant species. There's

spk_0 a little flower called the Depford Pink. It's a little carnation. It's not in Depford anymore,

spk_0 but we've got two of the 20 odd populations in Britain, one's down in Saltash, in Cornwall,

spk_0 and the other one's in just outside Melbourne. And it's a beautiful little flower. It thrives in

spk_0 an area that's where you get the disturbance. And we get that from the colleagues who are working

spk_0 on the trackside vehicles at access points. That disturbance keeps the competition down and the

spk_0 Depford Pink can grow in that area. And how about animals? Animals, I mean every protective species in

spk_0 Britain, frankly, will use the railway. Lots of dormice, lots of bats. And all the normal things as

spk_0 well, foxes will use it badges, otters, deer will cross the railway. And it's all over that.

spk_0 Can burrowing things on would be troublesome. I've here particularly the possibility of beavers

spk_0 causing your pain in the neck in Scotland. They can, I mean they burrow really well as do badges.

spk_0 But the beavers at the moment haven't caused us any problems. We've been able to work with them,

spk_0 persuade them to move their down from where they want to. They can do some of the treefelling for you.

spk_0 Exactly, they can do that. But yeah, they've created a dam under a culvert under the

spk_0 Harlan mainline. And we just had to work with the local estate and beaver experts to make sure

spk_0 that we can persuade them to move their dam somewhere else. So what does your job actually

spk_0 involve? Because I mean, obviously the railways are going to run beavers, notwithstanding.

spk_0 Are you studying what's there? Are you trying to encourage some things? Are you trying to stop

spk_0 other things? Like how do you make your strategy work? So we obviously have to run trains safely

spk_0 and efficiently for the people and the goods that we're moving around as you've already talked

spk_0 to do that. We need to manage that line side estate. That's two thirds of our network is the

spk_0 interesting, the green stuff at the side. The railways bits the other third in the middle. And we

spk_0 have to manage that to make sure those trains can run safely and efficiently. That means managing

spk_0 the vegetation and the habitats. So like, you know, mowing the grass occasion and things like that.

spk_0 Cutting trees down, you mentioned leaves on line, big issue during the autumn. And we need to

spk_0 manage that vegetation to stop it blocking signals, blocking level crossing sighting, things like that.

spk_0 So whilst we're doing that work, we need to be aware of what species are living in those habitats.

spk_0 And that's where I come in in terms of the strategy to make sure that colleagues can still do

spk_0 the railway stuff, but we are managing it so that we're creating the right habitat, which works

spk_0 both for the trains and for those protective species. So you think it's pretty good now? How are you

spk_0 going to make it better? It's a case of carrying on doing what we're doing because we've already got

spk_0 those protective species. They make use of our habitats already. So this is, I mean, you didn't try and

spk_0 put them there. They just kind of turned up and then you thought, okay, well, let's make them at home.

spk_0 We have six million trees on our side of the fence and we haven't, we've hardly planted any of those.

spk_0 They have turned up after you've talked about the steam and the diesel transition. Exactly.

spk_0 And we have been rewilding for the last 60, 70 years. So there are other particular things you'd like to see

spk_0 in relation to the nature of wildlife next to trains? I guess it's about balancing the sort of

spk_0 benefits of having a driving by the university with new infrastructure and the upgrades that

spk_0 are required. There was a big outcry about a batten associated with HSTO, wasn't it? So how do we

spk_0 sort of communicate better what actually the reality of that is and the benefits and costs of

spk_0 sort of managing that infrastructure alongside the environment? And Christian, I mean, what happens

spk_0 around the rest of the world? A lot of countries proud of the biodiversity around their railways.

spk_0 Is this a topic that's taught about? Well, a lot of countries don't fence in their railways in the way

spk_0 we do. So it's more open, which is both in some ways positive for the wildlife because they can get

spk_0 around better, but also you can end up with kind of deers being slammed into at 125 miles an hour.

spk_0 So I mean, it's obviously an issue for everywhere across the world, although somehow in my travels

spk_0 around the world, I've never heard of people complaining so much about leaves on the liners here.

spk_0 I wonder why that is. We probably don't want to revisit that too much here, Neil, but just one

spk_0 thing before we let you go, I had heard of this idea of putting solar panels on the

spk_0 embankments on either side of trains because they often either side of the railways, excuse me,

spk_0 because they often tilt and face in the right way. The was talk about the estate being used a bit

spk_0 for that, is that a reality or is that just a driver dazzler? If we need to put solar panels down,

spk_0 we need to cut the trees down, which then has them with the implications. It's a bit like electrification.

spk_0 If you want to electrify lines, you need to remove trees. And so there's a balance between

spk_0 the biodiversity and the opportunities we have providing that estate for the biodiversity and running

spk_0 trains. Expand on that point a little bit, that electrification obviously involves putting

spk_0 pylons up and then having wires running overhead. So there's a direct competition there,

spk_0 is there between electrification and the biodiversity around the track? Where you don't already have

spk_0 the wires, then the trees can be a bit closer, a bit taller. We need to make sure that there's

spk_0 enough space around the wire so they don't short out the wires if the trees are there. So,

spk_0 but in order to build and put up those stanchions and the wires, you would need to move the trees.

spk_0 You could allow them to regrow. You wouldn't allow them to get as high as they were,

spk_0 but there's still that change in habitat type. Manil, strong. Thank you very much indeed. One

spk_0 thing I've wondered as a driver of an electric car, which has become a reality thanks to the

spk_0 improvement really of battery technology, is could some of that, some of those advances apply

spk_0 to trains as well? Well, in August, a great Western railway battery-powered train broke a world

spk_0 record by travelling 200 miles on a single charge and apparently it still had a bit left in the

spk_0 battery at the end of all of that. And this morning I went to West London to meet Judean Fletcher,

spk_0 who is the Technology Development Manager for GWR, and he's one of the engineers who led the trials.

spk_0 That was the shoot gate going up, the charging system. Oh, so that's it, the trains moving.

spk_0 It was this enormous clunk and we're off. And we are on a train very quickly. It's almost like

spk_0 an exclusive experience because we're the only ones on it, apart from the two guys in the middle of

spk_0 laptops, what is this train what are you doing today? So we're doing a fairly routine test run

spk_0 just back and forward on the branch line, which it runs between Greenford and Westeeling,

spk_0 which is where we normally operate it. And we've been testing for a little over a year,

spk_0 just doing a test program, which has had two halves to it really. One half has been to really

spk_0 thoroughly test the charging system itself, just thrash it through all extremes of weather and

spk_0 testing configuration, fail lots of bits on purpose, switched lots of stuff off, and just find out

spk_0 what the limits are. The other aspect has been that we've got some in-house software that tells you

spk_0 how far a battery train will go, which is kind of everybody's question. So I've got batteries on

spk_0 my train, but is it 50 miles? Is it 100? What will it do? And as you might expect that varies,

spk_0 depending on the weather, your air conditioning, your heating system, how far to drive. I mean,

spk_0 all these factors affect that, which is fine in theory, but the best thing to do is get a real

spk_0 train, test it for real, and then validate it for one. So that's the other one.

spk_0 So tell me about, I'm just, there's definitely got all the proper train noise,

spk_0 it's a huge noise, it's just, it's just, that's what you're going to be thinking.

spk_0 Okay, so the question, especially when it comes to cars on the road, the second question

spk_0 everyone's got after how long does the battery last is, how do you charge it? So how do you charge

spk_0 a train battery? Well, that is the special aspect of this trial. We have a charging system at

spk_0 Westeeling where we've come from, designed to charge the battery in about three to four minutes,

spk_0 which is the, that's the timetable for the train. That's how long the driver's got to get from

spk_0 one end to the other. And we do that with what we call shoe gear, so there's two big lumps of

spk_0 carbon copper composite that come down underneath the train. They're on air-powered sort of cylinders.

spk_0 As the train approaches, there's various communications between the train and the charging system.

spk_0 There's shoe gear comes down and then it rides up some charging rails. So they're similar,

spk_0 physically to like a third rail that you would see on the underground, but they're electrically

spk_0 disconnected almost all the time. And you wait until the train is fully in position, it's had a little

spk_0 sort of conversation with the charging system, everything's agreed that it's safe and then

spk_0 the charging rails go live. It checks that it's got a safe amount of current. I mean in brutal terms,

spk_0 it says, I'm putting so many kilowatts in, are you receiving the same number of kilowatts,

spk_0 or is any of it going somewhere else? And if it's going somewhere else, it switches off.

spk_0 So I saw this coming into the platform. So instead of having a great big plug, you've got,

spk_0 there were just two sort of bits of metal that were perhaps two or three meters long sitting

spk_0 in between the rails. Once the train is in position on top of them, they come up underneath,

spk_0 and that's kind of where your plug is. That's where the connection is made.

spk_0 Yes, they just stay stationary, but the shoes come down and press quite hard.

spk_0 I think I'm down from the train, not up from the bottom.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 So we are wandering down the middle of the train now, where there are two gentlemen sitting at a

spk_0 desk, two laptops, two screens, lots of data. Hello, do you want to introduce yourselves very quickly?

spk_0 Hi, I'm Pavel Yorkevich, I'm an electric engineering working from Greatquets and Race.

spk_0 I'm John Harris, I'm a controls engineer.

spk_0 And you're clearly monitoring lots of things. What's the data we got on the screen here?

spk_0 So on this screen over here, we have our RCM data. When you can see the state of the train,

spk_0 so you can see the state of charge of the individual batteries. You can see the general state of

spk_0 charge where we are location-wise. What is our speed and the graph of state of charge over the day

spk_0 today? What power we use or what covering? This screen showing us the more in-detail data from

spk_0 the train and what power we're using, what currents are. So basically you're watching everything

spk_0 the train does. And presumably this varies quite a lot depending on the journey, so you're just

spk_0 collecting data to learn. So all of this is being recorded on the server, so we can go back to it

spk_0 and analyze it and see how we can improve it, or if there's something going wrong, trying to

spk_0 figure out what is that's going wrong. Yes. Is the aim here to have, at some point, a battery train

spk_0 that just runs on a battery, or is the point that they will always effectively be filling in the gaps

spk_0 where the track isn't electrified? It's a bit of both, so it depends on the line you're running on.

spk_0 So little branches like this are perfect for battery with a short charging system, which could

spk_0 be from the overhead line or it could be the Schubert system we use. For other lines elsewhere

spk_0 through the network, you certainly could have a longer faster route where you have bits of electrification,

spk_0 and that's the way the batteries charged. And recently you broke a world record. Tell me about that.

spk_0 There was a sort of a fortunate result from some of the efficiency work we'd done, and we spent

spk_0 about a week trying different styles of driving and realised that actually that there was a lot of

spk_0 efficiency to be gained by changing the way the train is driven. So some of our routine runs

spk_0 back from here, a west dealing over to Reading Depot where the big maintenance is done. We said,

spk_0 well, let's use that opportunity to experiment with different driving techniques. They gave us such

spk_0 spectacular efficiency improvements that we hadn't really even optimised in it expected. We started

spk_0 projecting out, well, if we tried these a little bit more, if we started using bits of the battery

spk_0 capacity that we don't normally use, what does it all work out at? And that was comfortably an

spk_0 excess of 200 miles. So that- On a single charge? Yeah, on a single charge. And that's what gave rise

spk_0 to us going through the world record attempt. Well, the train is slowing to a halt back at the west

spk_0 Ealing Depot, so I think our train journey is over. We're going to leave the train through the

spk_0 train driver's cabin, which is quite exciting because I've never been in one of them. Oh, it's

spk_0 bit the tight fit though. A bit of clambering is about to ensue. Okay, we are down onto the platform.

spk_0 Oh, so we're actually- Oh, this is brilliant because we're in the depot, we can sort of see

spk_0 underneath the train, which you can't see in a platform. So, can you point out a battery? Yeah,

spk_0 that's not what we can see. Okay, this is the traction converter unit. So this takes the DC

spk_0 current from the batteries. Yep. And that turns it into AC current to drive the motors. That's

spk_0 the main function. Okay, such as underneath the train carriages here and then carrying on,

spk_0 what else have we got some massive things here? Yeah, so these three boxes you can see here.

spk_0 These are the traction batteries. So inside here are lithium-ion batteries. So they're big battery

spk_0 boxes here. So they're more or less the same width as the train and about three feet long. So a

spk_0 meter long and there's three of these on each carriage, are they? Or just on the front one?

spk_0 On the front and the rear and nothing in the middle. So there were just six of these that are

spk_0 powering the whole train? That's right, yeah. It's not a lot, is it? Hey, how are you doing?

spk_0 Hello. I'm Helen. Lovely to meet you. John. And what has got to do with you? Yeah,

spk_0 okay. It's amazing. It's amazing. Fantastic. It's down the depot and you've been quite well

spk_0 knitted into the trial right from the off. So the number of times we've sort of phoned you up and

spk_0 said, oh, we need to check this on the train and one of the batteries doing. Can you plug in a laptop?

spk_0 You're in awesome. In the start, we're helping them, but now we're part of it now.

spk_0 The drag up thing. Getting stuck in, yes. And so how excited are you about the whole project?

spk_0 Beautiful. Because they're retesting two things. Man thing is one is how fast we can charge the

spk_0 batteries and how long the batteries last. Right? And there's tons of money because of the infrastructure

spk_0 and all that as well. Nowadays, you see the electric cars running up and down, isn't it? You charge

spk_0 at home and beautiful. So is emission free and all that? Win, win, win. Amazing.

spk_0 Well, how did it feel, Helen? Was it, could you sort of sense the novelty? Or did it just feel like

spk_0 any other train, which might be the point? No, it completely felt like any other train.

spk_0 It definitely made all the noises. And this record, it was there and back. It wasn't all downhill or

spk_0 something. I think it was a fair record. So I don't think there was any cheating going. There's

spk_0 no gravity assist on this. Okay. So Christian Walmart, to what extent are battery powered trains

spk_0 apart of our future? Well, it's probably pretty marginal actually because you're not going to get a

spk_0 battery train that's going to take you from London to Edinburgh in any sort of efficiency.

spk_0 I mean, where it's useful is and has been already been used is where you've got a electrified

spk_0 train, but there aren't any wires for the last five or ten miles or something. And so then you have

spk_0 the battery, which can then take you that last bit and then bring you back into the electrified

spk_0 system. Rob, you spend your time thinking about the future of the railways. What do you think of

spk_0 the potential for battery powered trains? I think there's huge potential for it. I think where you

spk_0 can't electrify you have to look at other solutions. So if you've got a branch line that

spk_0 there's no way that you'd electrify that because the cost is too significant for the amount of

spk_0 passengers that are on there, why not use battery trains? And the technology that you've just

spk_0 referred to, the GWR technology, it uses this fast charge system where a shoe gear goes down

spk_0 when passengers are at the station, that then charges the battery over the two minutes that it

spk_0 takes for passengers to a light. And I also saw that the the new East West rail, which is this project

spk_0 that's supposed to go from, is it Oxford to Milton Keynes to Cambridge Bedford as well. But they're

spk_0 thinking about something called discontinuous electric, which looks like a hybrid between the two

spk_0 that you'd sort of charge a battery as you as you went along because they can't find the money

spk_0 to actually make it electric. That's right. Well there's some bits of it where it would be quite

spk_0 expensive to electrify it because you'd have to dig out underneath a tunnel and that's really

spk_0 problematic. So it is going to be some sort of discontinuous system. But at the moment they're only

spk_0 building it as a diesel railway, which is shocking in 2025 to have just diesel trains rather than

spk_0 electric trains. I still be, yeah. What do you think about that? To us, it's also Mr. Pratuncid,

spk_0 something that it seems like we're going backwards and we can understand the constraints and sometimes

spk_0 it's better to deliver a new connectivity than it is to be the pursuant of the perfect

spk_0 you know system that we want to see. It's better to be pragmatic and deliver that enhanced connectivity.

spk_0 But it seemed like a Mr. Pratuncid to us. Not electrifying you. Not electrifying. Well certainly

spk_0 when I was on the train this morning they were very enthusiastic about this idea of switching

spk_0 between as you need and it lets you go anywhere. Rob, one of the things that I love about trains in

spk_0 general is that the innovation hasn't stopped. You know, there may be many, you know, maybe quite

spk_0 old as a concept, but actually we are still innovating. What else is going on apart from the sort

spk_0 of battery trials that I visited? What are the new things are coming along in the world of

spk_0 train technology? Yeah, there's loads of different things. I mean you can, you've got to think about

spk_0 railway infrastructures. There's a disused tube station that's now being used. They're using

spk_0 waste heat from the lunar and underground and caused by the breaking of the trains to power nearly

spk_0 1500 homes in Islington. There's loads of different developments that are going on in and across

spk_0 the railways and they're not just on the track as well. You know, the rail is a far more than just

spk_0 the trains on the track. Another innovation I can mention is in light rail so we have spoken

spk_0 predominantly about heavy rail in the city, but there's also light rail and tram networks across

spk_0 our cities and what they're doing in Wales, in South Wales, they have built a new depot with new

spk_0 trains that they call tram trains. So there are vehicles that can use both conventional heavy rail

spk_0 tracks and they can continue on to light rail tram networks. Well, I love a tram and this does

spk_0 actually give me the perfect opportunity to mention. Very recently online, I found you'll love this

spk_0 Tom, the tram drivers world championship. Genuinely, a thing in Vienna, they closed off a part of the

spk_0 tram network in Vienna. There were I think 30 countries sent their tram drivers to compete and they

spk_0 had a little series of tasks they had to compete. So they had to stop and start and not spill water

spk_0 in a bowl. They had tram curling where they had to push a thing through it rolled and stopped in the

spk_0 right place. Well, there was a small thing that was on rollers on the rails. The tram had to move

spk_0 up behind it and push it and then the tram stopped and the rolly thing kept going just like

spk_0 curled. It's an annual event actually and they have to, for example, have to stop the tram within a

spk_0 millimeter of where they're aiming at. Brilliant, yeah. But it does also add something, this is all

spk_0 about people as well. It's not just about automated technology. I just wanted one bit of technology.

spk_0 I think you mentioned it and something I just wanted to add in my head, Maglev, magnetic

spk_0 levitation. It was this idea that trains were sort of as I understand it sort of hover on a

spk_0 magnetic field. I heard about a lot decades ago. Where is it now? Well, there is one that operates

spk_0 in Shanghai Airport. It goes from Shanghai Airport to a suburb of Shanghai, but in the middle of nowhere.

spk_0 And that's one of the problems. The track is very expensive to build. It actually uses a lot of energy.

spk_0 Yeah, the Japanese are developing the L0 series, Maglev for use on the Ture Ocean Concern line.

spk_0 And in 2015, they did achieve 600 kilometres an hour, 375 miles per hour.

spk_0 Sylvia, when it comes to the passenger experience, maybe look 20 years ahead. What are the things that

spk_0 you're most excited about or how might there always look into or how do you hope that look in 20 years

spk_0 time? So at the moment, there's a big schedule of reform happening. Both in the rail sector with

spk_0 the transition, with nationalization, new systems being developed. But also in the transport sector,

spk_0 there's a new integration strategy coming between modes. And that will make things really exciting

spk_0 because if we can integrate better between the trains and buses and active travel, then people

spk_0 will be able to use cars much less. Christian, what do you think? 20 years time from now, what would

spk_0 you like the railways in this country to look like? What we need is first of all, a fair structure that

spk_0 is much more comparable and accessible to people. But also just an improvement in the passenger

spk_0 experience. There's a campaign called Family Friendly Trains, which I think is excellent.

spk_0 When you go bored, you sometimes get trains where there's a little play area for the kids or

spk_0 conference centre for the businessmen, where there's space to do things on to carrying your

spk_0 bike on a railway. It's impossible, very difficult in this country. So let's just think of the

spk_0 passenger. Make it a railway that is friendly and more accessible and hopefully cheaper.

spk_0 And I think that's the future. We don't need a whole new invention. We don't need mag level,

spk_0 whatever. Rob, 25-year vision? Yeah, this sounds very defeatist to me, but I would absolutely

spk_0 love it if we had something very similar to a hundred years ago, with the amount of lines that we

spk_0 had there, the trams you mentioned them earlier. If they connected us in our small towns and cities,

spk_0 like they did in a hundred small towns and cities, carrying millions of passengers, yes, admittedly,

spk_0 I would want them electrified and I would also want way cheaper fairs. I would want everybody to

spk_0 be able to access the railways. That's got to be right up there in one of the most important

spk_0 genders of the railways. You've got to make sure that people can actually travel on them first.

spk_0 And then I would remember this conversation I had with, it was somebody who's job type, was

spk_0 something along the lines of future transport planner. And he said to me, look, you can take your

spk_0 hydrogen, take your batteries, move that away. If people got a cheap train with seats that arrived

spk_0 on time, they'd be happy. And it's a simple size, isn't it? In my book Fire and Steam,

spk_0 200th, which I said to republish the 200th anniversary this year, I talk about the Agatha

spk_0 Christie railway. And that's the railway that kind of existed at the turn of the century, where

spk_0 Miss Marple or Erkule Prower would take the train to wherever the murders would take place.

spk_0 And then they'd arrive at some little village station, be taken by the butler in the horse cart,

spk_0 kind of to the two miles to the mansion where all the action was, and then be taken back at the end.

spk_0 And that was almost a perfect world, right? For you, even that feels like, you know,

spk_0 people wobble misty-eyed idealism. No, not at all. It was a comfortable way of traveling,

spk_0 and you were taken door to door, and it was environmentally sustainable, and you've got a nice

spk_0 journey in between. Come on Tom, what's up to like? I suspect the people who were looking after the

spk_0 horses probably couldn't afford quite so much. So maybe there's an inclusivity thing there.

spk_0 Anyway, that's a brilliant place to finish. So thank you very much to Sylvia Barrett, Christian

spk_0 Bulma, Neil Strong and Rob Scargill.

spk_0 Well, and I really enjoyed that. I love that love the passion. I learned a lot. The only moment

spk_0 when I felt a bit uncomfortable, whereas I'd managed to sort of cast myself as the enemy of trains,

spk_0 and I'm actually not. I'd love to see more people using them, and in some ways the network expanded.

spk_0 But I felt there was possibly a little bit of lack of realism for the people who are taking

spk_0 these decisions in government. They look at trains as something that's costing them money,

spk_0 and currently they look at roads as something that's driving, as something that's bringing in money,

spk_0 which is a real problem when we want to shift more investment to railways.

spk_0 It's true, but I don't think it's insurmountable, because government invests in things all the time

spk_0 that have diffuse benefits in the long term. Science and innovation is a good example. You put

spk_0 money into science, and you're not going to say we put money here, and we can see exactly what

spk_0 the benefit is, but we do know, because we've got evidence over decades that in general,

spk_0 the things that come out of that funding do bring an enormous boost to the economy. Governments

spk_0 can clearly can judge that, but for some reason it gets lost in the argument here.

spk_0 Especially when they're allegedly short term in their thinking, Governments.

spk_0 Yes. Well, there's always an electoral cycle to think about, isn't there?

spk_0 Just one other thing that Rob said. Absolutely. Categorically, he said, trains were the catalyst for

spk_0 the climate crisis. So while looking back, should we put them in the dock for climate change,

spk_0 did suggest that he would hit, certainly, put them there?

spk_0 Well, I guess the rebuttal to that is that they're also perhaps one of our best routes out of it.

spk_0 So, you know, the future is still bright for the train, I think.

spk_0 Well, thanks very much for joining us on Rare Earth. It was produced by Beth Segar Fenton

spk_0 in association with the Open University. To discover more about our environment,

spk_0 explore what we can do to help head to the BBC Rare Earth homepage and follow the links to the

spk_0 Open University. And that's it for this series of Rare Earth. But join us again in November,

spk_0 where we'll be journeying through Indonesia, bringing news from the big climate summit,

spk_0 COP30 this year in Brazil, and looking at Donald Trump and environmental policy one year on,

spk_0 into his presidency. Oh, and you have the small topics to come, then. See you then for the next series.

spk_0 In August 2005, Hurricane Katrina ripped through the defenses of New Orleans,

spk_0 sending a cascade of water into the city. 800,000 people were forced from their homes.

spk_0 More than $14 billion has been spent on repairing the city's dikes and levies,

spk_0 but floods are still a regular menace.

spk_0 Typically, when it rains here, when we have a good rain, a frog strangle,

spk_0 a frog strangle. A frog strangle. Right.

spk_0 Or even not. Just a normal rain, typically, the street right here in front of my house will flood.

spk_0 I'm Ocean Physicist Helen Cherisky. And for Front Yard floods on the BBC World Service,

spk_0 I'm in the birthplace of jazz, the Big Easy, to find out how local residents in some of the city's

spk_0 poorest neighborhoods are taking flood prevention into their own hands.

spk_0 We have to back up onto our front porch and look at our own front yard and look at our yard as

spk_0 the first line of defense.

Trains on Trial

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