Tom Emrich, Director of Product AR Platforms at Niantic

Interactive Transcript

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spk_0 Live from the DC studios. Welcome to the VR and AR podcast.

spk_0 Welcome to the VR and AR association podcast. This week we sit down with our

spk_0 good friend Tom Emrick. Tom is the AR product director at Niantic. Niantic as many of you

spk_0 all know is leading the world in sort of world building in augmented reality and in

spk_0 web based augmented reality. Niantic has been building these tool systems for many years

spk_0 now really allowing anyone and everyone to get involved in augmented reality. Really

spk_0 there are these two very useful tool systems that help you get involved in web based augmented

spk_0 reality through eighth wall and then world based, world scale based augmented reality

spk_0 through Niantic lightship. We're really excited about the product release around lightship

spk_0 coming up here and as well as just really all of the advancements that Niantic has made

spk_0 in the space of augmented reality over the years. We'll talk with Tom about the advancements

spk_0 in artificial intelligence, in generative AI, and the impact that these types of things

spk_0 have on anyone and everyone being involved in the creation of augmented reality.

spk_0 Well Tom it's great to have you back on the podcast. Welcome. Thank you for having me back.

spk_0 I'm excited to be talking to you again. I know we're saying it's been a couple of years

spk_0 and there's a lot has happened for you personally and for what you've been involved in and it's

spk_0 just really exciting work that's moved beyond this original niche realm and into really

spk_0 broadly applicable across the board. It's been really exciting to see that happen. I would

spk_0 love it if we could just start with, let's kick this off with for those who have not heard

spk_0 your background story and how you got involved in and have been shaping the augmented reality

spk_0 of the landscape over the last decade or so. Fill us in. How did you get plugged in originally

spk_0 in this realm of technology and what kind of brought you to where you are now?

spk_0 Sure. How did I get plugged into the matrix? Exactly. I guess where it all started was I was

spk_0 working in media and I had this vision that at the time the world was going to be all screens.

spk_0 The reason why I thought about that was because if you recall when the tablet came on the stage,

spk_0 the iPad, there was a lot of talk around the third screen. You were watching TV, you had your phone

spk_0 or your laptop and you also had your tablet and there was this interaction between those screens

spk_0 as we were watching media and engaging with brands. It got me thinking about the future and I was

spk_0 thinking about how the world would be filled with screens. That may seem absurd but at the time,

spk_0 Microsoft was actually working on this large table that was a display if you recall.

spk_0 Minority report was showing a world of screens as well that you manipulated with your hands.

spk_0 I was really excited about that and I actually started a blog called ScreenGeek. It's the worst

spk_0 name ever and people thought that I was actually writing about television and reviewing television

spk_0 shows. Actually, what it was was really thinking about the different screens that we had in our life

spk_0 and how they were being utilized. Of course, as I was writing, I discovered wearable technology

spk_0 and it was a ha ha moment where I said, oh, the world's not going to be screens. We're going to be

spk_0 wearable technology. I actually renamed that blog to future tech report, another horrible name,

spk_0 but more straightforward. I dedicated my time doing a lot of research and a lot of writing on

spk_0 wearable technology, the Internet of Things, robotics. I got quite a following. It was very early

spk_0 days. This was I think like 2012, I think 2011. It felt like the wearable technology space I could

spk_0 hold in my hand. It was that small. If you recall, back around that time was the height of kickstarter

spk_0 Indiegogo. There was a lot of experimentation in wearable technology, wearable tech, like LED

spk_0 addresses or new ways to use heart monitors and also like the beginnings of heads up displays,

spk_0 including Google Glass. I was really excited about wearable technology, extremely fascinated,

spk_0 especially fascinated about how this technology is going to change who we are as humans.

spk_0 I think that has remained consistent, those two things. My fascination with wearable technology

spk_0 as the next wave of computing and more so thinking about it less from a technology perspective,

spk_0 although that's important, but more about how it's going to change the fabric of who we are

spk_0 as humans, as we think about work, life and play. It really, you started this off by saying you

spk_0 sort of had this vision for it and you really have been effectively executing on that vision and

spk_0 really sort of believing in yourself in these ways because in those early days, there wasn't

spk_0 as much belief. There wasn't as much natural awareness because there wasn't as much context for how

spk_0 wearable technology would impact the way that you can interact with the world. It's seen as like,

spk_0 you have, we humans, we sort of have this fascination with believing that whatever we've created,

spk_0 we've completed all of creation. It's like, in all we're doing is adding or upgrading to what

spk_0 we've already made. In fact, there is a lot of life and reality that we don't know yet. We don't

spk_0 have the ability to understand or compute or interact with. We get the opportunity through these

spk_0 mechanisms that we generate to be able to discover new ways of interacting. But it takes this

spk_0 sort of visionary mindset in the early days to kind of see it and then say, okay, I'm going to

spk_0 commit myself to this effort. How did that get from wearable technology to sort of more of the

spk_0 software delivery side of like, okay, augmented reality is a mechanism for content delivery that's,

spk_0 that can be broadly applied to wearables and beyond. Well, I'll get to that, but I just love what

spk_0 you said about exploring the human experience. It's exactly one of the things that I think about

spk_0 when I think about wearable technology and how technology is our exploration of ourselves.

spk_0 And when we think about the early days of wearable technology, it really was about

spk_0 holding up a data mirror to ourselves and run our biometrics. That's kind of where it started

spk_0 with sensors and the ability to understand your heart rate and a lot of fitness metrics. And

spk_0 you know, we saw a big boom in fitness wearables, sports wearables and a better understanding of who we

spk_0 are as biometric machines as biological machines. And that's a continued journey that we're having

spk_0 with this technology, of course, with the Apple Watch. But it's interesting how technology reminded

spk_0 us that we're actually machines that have heartbeats. And you know, we were able to measure our

spk_0 ECG and, you know, our blood oxygen. And there was a democratization of that through sensors,

spk_0 like that's a common thing. And so then you fast forward through to augmented reality. And now we

spk_0 are replicating with technology again, thanks to sensors, our spatial perception of the world.

spk_0 Right. And so this is another aspect of humanity where we are essentially trying to

spk_0 match our ability to see the world through computer vision, leveraging sensors and machine

spk_0 learning and artificial intelligence. And it will give us a new perspective of who we are as

spk_0 humans by seeing the world as we see it through machines ironically. And we'll continue on this

spk_0 journey. I was asked while back on a podcast, like where do you see yourselves or where you see yourself?

spk_0 Sorry. You know, 30 years from now, 40 years from now. And I said, I'm probably still going to be

spk_0 in wearable technology or like sensor based technology. But I hope by that time we'd move past,

spk_0 you know, spatial awareness through to emotional awareness, which is on the horizon, through to

spk_0 perceptual awareness, which is the ultimate. And perhaps, you know, our technology, literally

spk_0 rolling back the onion layers of who we are to better understand what our soul is, like what

spk_0 our human essence is. So it seems a little esoteric. But if you think about how sensors and

spk_0 technology are really allowing for us to replicate human experience and how that could unveil and

spk_0 allow for us to see ourselves in new ways, it's quite exciting. And that's kind of what keeps me

spk_0 excited about this space. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I'm sure that that is how that's

spk_0 that's probably sets up the transition into AR. But it's really, I'd like this. I mean, we're

spk_0 already here we are, Tom, we're already into the deep stuff. But I love, I love this idea. I

spk_0 think this is what's what's happening a lot, especially because of especially because of augmented

spk_0 reality. But it's true. I mean, you mentioned it in the in the in the realm of wearable technology.

spk_0 It's like as soon as as soon as we allow ourselves to experience like sensor integration to our,

spk_0 let's call it the wearable experience. As soon as we allow for that, we we turn the human

spk_0 experience or the human being basically like in a in a really unique capacity, we turn ourselves

spk_0 into an abstraction, which can be really valuable then for being able to express and experience

spk_0 a variety of sort of things that maybe you wouldn't have been able to experience before,

spk_0 before you could express yourself as an abstraction. And what I mean by that is like we've already

spk_0 experienced that in terms of you know, you get into a virtual reality environment, you want to be

spk_0 an avatar, those sorts of things, you want to sort of turn yourself your own experience into

spk_0 another experience. And in what's really valuable about the fact that you know, people can be

spk_0 abstractions because the technology allows us to represent reality in different formats in

spk_0 different kinds of ways. And that then allows for you know, you know, the way that you, you know,

spk_0 it's like here's a relevant example, you know, there was, I think it was Nickelodeon that did it

spk_0 last week, but they did the, the sort of the real-time graphic overlay of the NFL game, you know,

spk_0 because all those players are wearing the sensors in their jersey kit. And so we can just pull

spk_0 the real-time movement of the players and then just abstract the real-time movement of the players

spk_0 onto cartoon players playing on a cartoon field. And so you're watching the entire live NFL game,

spk_0 but instead of watching the actual NFL players, you're watching cartoon players doing the exact

spk_0 same body mechanics, which you know, it's, it's fascinating as an idea, but you can see, we can see

spk_0 where the players on the football field in reality, in physical reality are just abstractions.

spk_0 For now, this augmented game experience that you can have overlaid on top of the real world in

spk_0 ways that are way more meaningful than just restricting football to being on a screen on a field.

spk_0 Right. You know, exactly. It really is like your, your, your use, you saw in the early stages that

spk_0 the way that people are going to be able to experience this content is by being able to be a,

spk_0 be a part of it themselves with their own body. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And that's what I like about

spk_0 augmented reality, right, is being able to see the world through new eyes, like being able to see the

spk_0 world in an extraordinary way that only the combination of the real world, us as a human and technology

spk_0 can provide, right. It's the combination of that. And in, in many ways, and this is very, you know,

spk_0 niontic as we're very passionate about the real world metaverse, augmented reality requires the

spk_0 world in order to augment it. And so as you're pointing out, you know, it required the real, you know,

spk_0 NFL players to play in order to make that an even more magical experience for children in particular

spk_0 or young adults through the lens of Nicolodian. And so that, that, that, that play with perception is

spk_0 what's really exciting about both AR and VR. And, you know, I've always described augmented reality

spk_0 in particular as, you know, giving computers their own sense of the world through senses in order to

spk_0 edit our sense of the world. And that's, that is like really magical. And also as a company that,

spk_0 you know, we're creating tools to enable developers to, to allow for this new lens to be put on by

spk_0 users, we take it really seriously as well. And in both unlocking that, but doing that in a very

spk_0 responsible way as well. Yeah. So, so explain then, Tom, because we, you know, we have what we love

spk_0 about this industry is that it's expanding every day. And so we have people that join our community

spk_0 all the time who, you know, maybe they, they didn't, they don't know the history of niontic and sort of

spk_0 how niontic has been shaping real world, you know, augmented, I mean, augmented reality across the

spk_0 world, across the board, but really specifically in some pretty magical ways, been supporting, being

spk_0 able to do that by ingesting the real world. Because as you just said, I mean, that's, that's

spk_0 really the value here is, I think it's interesting, you know, as, as we've been on this journey, you know,

spk_0 for 10 or 15 years together here, you know, it's, it's interesting how the, there's been an evolution

spk_0 of the understanding of what augmented reality is of, of how, you know, initially it's just sort of

spk_0 this like siloed layer of an app experience. But, you know, now it's more of a fluid layer of being

spk_0 able to truly augment your real time reality in ways that then are being able to add things to that

spk_0 reality that aren't just like, you know, Yelp reviews and looking down, looking down the street,

spk_0 you know, in those early days of Google Glass, but it's like, no, I mean, truly being able to

spk_0 spatially compute on top of reality and then provide enhancements to it that use it to, to make

spk_0 things more beautiful or more unique in the ways that the individual user would like and without

spk_0 needing to affect or change the actual physical reality. And so there are, there are lots of value

spk_0 propositions for people to be able to do this. It just tends to start in these smaller pockets

spk_0 of communities. But now we've seen serious expanse. And maybe if you could, maybe provide a little

spk_0 bit of the sort of background on niantic and really even broader on sort of the real world augmented

spk_0 reality. Right. Well, you know, going back to the example about the football players and how the

spk_0 football players were needed in order to be augmented, you know, niantic's roots is in mapping. And so

spk_0 I'm thinking about the map and how the map is actually documenting the real world. And having captured

spk_0 that map, you're then able to augment that map. And so I think that's a good place to start.

spk_0 You know, I really loved my experience with niantic way back when I was a Google Glass Explorer

spk_0 actually. They had an app called field trip. And it was one of my favorite apps on the Google Glass.

spk_0 And the reason was is because it was very contextual in its experience. And so I was walking around

spk_0 Toronto. And then I was able to get more information about what I saw in the real world. And again,

spk_0 I think like, you know, not to spell it out for the listener, but the common ingredients here that

spk_0 we're talking about is see real world augmented real world. And so you're going to be hearing this time

spk_0 and time again. And so like fast forward to Pokemon Go 2016. I mean, this was a big milestone.

spk_0 There were a lot of things that were happening, right? We had more powerful smartphones. We had

spk_0 an air kit, air core coming online around that time. So augmented reality, especially smartphone,

spk_0 augmented reality was really coming into play. And we have a really exciting game that was location

spk_0 based that allowed for you to go around the world and see the world through the story of Pokemon.

spk_0 And be able to find Pokemon in your real world on a map, but also use the camera to see Pokemon

spk_0 in your real world at the same time. And so perhaps that's the way that listeners right now

spk_0 know. Niantic best is through the publisher of Pokemon Go. And certainly that captured the

spk_0 attention of the world and continues to be a very successful game. And with our follow up now,

spk_0 our latest game Monster Hunter now, which is in a very similar vein of being able to find and

spk_0 hunt monsters within your real world. Again, leveraging map technology, finding monsters, and then

spk_0 opening the camera to be able to place those monsters in your space and take photos of them.

spk_0 Again, really changing your perception of the world and giving you a new reason to go outside

spk_0 and walk around and explore neighborhoods that you perhaps have been in time and time again.

spk_0 And that's really the magic of augmented reality is adding new excitement and new reasons to

spk_0 explore the world to see the world from a new perspective. And then in doing so, being able to

spk_0 connect with restaurants and shops and people that are walking about and have a social experience.

spk_0 So Niantic has always been very passionate about that real world metaverse view where

spk_0 the combining of the real world as the fundamental ingredient and adding on that technological

spk_0 there can create something extremely magical. And we wanted to make sure we can bring that to more

spk_0 users and to do that, we also have a platform part of our business. And that's where I sit. And so

spk_0 the platform side, of course, has a nice synergy and relationship with our gaming side and

spk_0 providing them with technologies and tools to create these experiences that I just talked about.

spk_0 But furthermore, we open up our tool set to the developer ecosystem so that developers can

spk_0 leverage these real world AR tools to build similar experiences and new experiences beyond

spk_0 what Niantic is focusing on. And we're really excited about doing that.

spk_0 Yeah, I mean, and I'll say too, just from my own company and experience with April all over

spk_0 the years, you know, with with the platform over the years is that, you know, it is effectively

spk_0 that, you know, simply put, it's really the way that you deploy augmented reality to the web.

spk_0 And it's, you know, it's how, I mean, there's a lot more obviously in the tool system and we can

spk_0 go into that. But it's like for those who are trying to think, you know, how do I get augmented reality

spk_0 out, you know, how do I use this in the most simplified capacity where it can affect the most

spk_0 amount of people? We know that the most effective deployment currently is over the web in terms

spk_0 of accessibility and those capacities. And so those in that way in terms of getting, and I'm not

spk_0 talking necessarily about, you know, gaming experiences and those sorts of things. But in terms of

spk_0 anyone being able to get access to using augmented reality and then being able to deploy it easily

spk_0 it would be done over the web and what you all have done in terms of platform development is

spk_0 obviously focused like I said on other formats of platforms, but always a really heavy focus on

spk_0 sort of democratization of the of the of the technology of the mechanisms. It's like if more people

spk_0 can get access to the mechanism, then more people will just inherently understand the value of it and

spk_0 they'll start to apply it in their own circumstance so that AR isn't, you know, augmented reality isn't

spk_0 enough to stay in the in the niche of gaming, you know, obviously it's a big niche, but it can

spk_0 be applied to really your your experience of the real world and all of these different capacities.

spk_0 And it's a great way to introduce that experience through gaming. I mean, Pokemon Go is certainly in,

spk_0 you know, and the the the wizarding world of, you know, the Harry Potter experience and all of that.

spk_0 I mean, those sort of back to back really sort of set up this location-based understanding of

spk_0 hey, AR content doesn't have to be spawned from your phone and that's to me, I think, was like a big

spk_0 moment there for Pokemon Go and really for the whole industry was augmented reality. Most people

spk_0 up until that point saw augmented maybe whether they recognize it or not. They sort of

spk_0 knew that augmented reality was was a was basically an effect of somebody having their holding their

spk_0 phone up. But in the case of Niantic and you know Pokemon Go, it's really the content actually

spk_0 exists on a network and then is displayed if you go up to it, right? It's not it's there all the time

spk_0 and it's just whether or not you can see it, you know, and it sort of is like that introduces an

spk_0 entirely different mechanic to human interaction with augmented reality. It no longer is it just this

spk_0 one to one experience on the phone. It's now this basically many to many experience. It's not even

spk_0 one to many. It's truly just a global experience that anyone can be involved in because it's

spk_0 overlaid on top of the real world. Yeah, really sort of set up this new era of I mean people

spk_0 would say location based AR, but it's really beyond that. It's it's it's really this the notion that

spk_0 augmented reality can live on a network instead of you know necessarily on a phone. And so it's

spk_0 you know, being able to then deploy augmented reality over the network of the worldwide web is

spk_0 then extremely valuable 100%. Yeah, I love that. I think we can talk about two things there. One is

spk_0 this network is the map and that's how we're seeing this right and being able to deploy and have

spk_0 you know persistent augmented reality experiences that can be multiplayer that can be social at these

spk_0 locations is what we're passionate about through our 3d map of the world. And you know our our

spk_0 ARDK which is our unity based SDK that enables soon the air foundation developers on unity to

spk_0 more easily create real world air experiences using our visual positioning system which is also

spk_0 known as vps is really aimed at enabling games and other content in a very similar way that you

spk_0 talk about where you can you know for example walk up to one of the vps waste spots one of

spk_0 thousands of vps waste spots that have already been scanned and are on our map to instantly

spk_0 collocalize together meaning like if you and me and a couple of friends are all there opening up

spk_0 our phone playing a game we can all play that game together. It's extremely magical or we

spk_0 can go to that same location and find content that looks more realistic within that space.

spk_0 And so being able to leverage a 3d map of the world it really takes you know augmented reality

spk_0 to the next level and certainly on the platform side we're really excited about our light

spk_0 chip unity SDK enabling that for app developers and in fact we're like we're gearing up for

spk_0 for that general release later this month so we're really excited about that. And on the flip side

spk_0 as you mentioned we also have our web based augmented reality platform which is leveraging that

spk_0 one app that we often take for granted which is the browser the one app that we use on a regular

spk_0 basis and allowing for very quick and easy access to augmented reality by just scanning a QR code

spk_0 or clicking a link and that accessibility and ease is a real good gateway to get users to engage

spk_0 with augmented reality. It's also a really great way to allow for developers to rapidly develop

spk_0 experiences distribute and publish experiences and make use of a lot of the same technologies that

spk_0 I just described on the air decayside with visual positioning system for example multiplayer.

spk_0 And so we really believe that within the AR space you know the app social and web

spk_0 discovery points which end users are engaging with on a regular basis need to all be

spk_0 active with augmented reality for augmented reality to become that next wave of computing.

spk_0 And that's why we're really excited about having a powerful platform that caters both to

spk_0 you need to developers and web developers alike. Yeah I mean it really is I think that there's so

spk_0 it's almost unfortunate because I want to get to sort of I want to be able to talk about some of

spk_0 the sort of future stuff and not necessarily future but really kind of what why what you're doing

spk_0 matters so much for the industry and just sort of for for what's happening but but also there's

spk_0 so much to sort of unpack in terms of how people can use these tool systems. I mean you just said you

spk_0 the the the the lightship announcement and sort of integration being able to build on light

spk_0 ship you know that's we've been I know that internally again we've been waiting for this for

spk_0 this for for a couple of years now I'm excited about it because the notion of this again it's

spk_0 it's that you have like you just very clearly laid out you have democratized access to augmented

spk_0 reality and deployments over the web and then you have this very high-end capability to be able

spk_0 to deploy augmented reality on top of the real world using real world atmospheric and the real

spk_0 world data and these sorts of things that turn the experience of augmented reality which is turn it

spk_0 into this really a circumstance where it is I believe it's appropriate at this point to start to

spk_0 talk about why it matters so much that people decipher between physical reality and augmented reality

spk_0 when it in fact what we're really talking about and you talk about this two time when you say

spk_0 that's what's so valuable about these experiences that they're social and what to me what's so valuable

spk_0 about reality is that we all agree on it we all agree that you know I'm looking out and seeing

spk_0 a green tree right we all agree on that right and that's and that's really valuable that we all

spk_0 find common agreement and that's what makes physical reality when we spend time together in physical

spk_0 reality so valuable is that we all find ways to have agreement when we're hanging out with each other

spk_0 and when we're engaging you know when we're interacting physically but it's like when we're

spk_0 interacting physically but also with virtualized content with digital content if we're all

spk_0 in agreement that that content exists and that it exists inside our reality then it is allowed

spk_0 to sort of blend shade into our format of reality in a way that allows it to be less of augmented reality

spk_0 and more of just another layer of our experience of reality and it's that's exciting to me that we

spk_0 don't have to see things with such stark segmentation and definition that we can actually see them

spk_0 start to blend together in ways that become a little bit more intuitive like I can just I just

spk_0 know and understand that there's going there's there are ways for me to enhance this circumstance

spk_0 that I'm in or to know more about it or to know every variation of time that has passed through it

spk_0 you know all of these sorts of things that I can understand my physical reality in ways that are

spk_0 well beyond what I could understand by just being me but that if I have augmented reality that I

spk_0 can understand even more about my physical reality by allowing myself to augment it you know and I

spk_0 can expand it beyond what I thought I could turn you know I just I just got my quest three and I

spk_0 played the you know the encounters game you know and I've had totally my room is totally taken over

spk_0 by aliens you know by a little pom pom aliens at the end but I totally believed in that experience

spk_0 through video pass through that I it didn't matter so much to me whether or not I was in VR or

spk_0 AR I was totally in my room but also fighting aliens inside this you know sort of like biodome

spk_0 environment that my room was crumbling into and so I was really actually blending these realities

spk_0 in a way that didn't make me feel like I needed to define it so heavily yeah I love that and it

spk_0 gives new meaning to your space I mean you'll have memories now of that space and I know once in a while

spk_0 remember that you know the red pom pom alien broke through your wall I mean I remember in virtual

spk_0 reality during the pandemic having a lot of really visceral memories of alt space and beating up with

spk_0 folks in alt space and having meetups and alt space and so there's a lot of meaning in this new

spk_0 technology that we're enabling developers to create content with and I think that's a really good

spk_0 word to refer back to is just giving new meaning giving new meaning to a place giving new meaning to

spk_0 relationships with people giving meaning to life giving new perspective on life like they're you

spk_0 know it sounds really really big but it really is what technology can do and it's not too far fetched

spk_0 because we're doing that already we're just not collapsing it to the point where it feels like

spk_0 it's a part of us there's like the separation gap between us and technology we're holding it in our

spk_0 hand we can put it down at any time and so it you know but we're doing that with Google we're doing

spk_0 that with the internet where we are already augmenting the human experience we're just taking this

spk_0 up a notch to the to a point where it feels much more natural it feels much more like how we do

spk_0 things today and in that way then we're going to be able to do that more rapidly and it will also

spk_0 allow for us to not have to choose between a digital moment and a physical moment as you pointed out

spk_0 but that digital and physical moment are now a new moment it's an augmented moment and that's the

spk_0 promise of augmented reality and when I talk to folks one of the big draws of augmented reality is

spk_0 that reinforcing of the real world and still being here in the real world and again it goes back to

spk_0 what we talked about which is like you can't have an augmented reality without reality and I think

spk_0 people you know once we get more acclimated to it I think that will be the big draw is that you

spk_0 still get to enjoy the house that you purchased or the neighborhood that you chose to live in or the

spk_0 people around you but now you also get the benefit of the wonder the awe and the extraordinary

spk_0 nature of technology whether it be informational or otherwise and how you know the pizza that you

spk_0 you eat every Sunday now becomes a brand new experience because the pizza comes to life or the

spk_0 book that you already read has new meaning because the pages have you know visualizations that pop

spk_0 out of the out of the text I mean the the sky's really going to be the limit and it's it's you know

spk_0 I find that fascinating and exciting and especially being in the tools business where you know we're

spk_0 building a platform one of the favorite things that I have the pleasure of waking up to is is you

spk_0 know going on to X or or Instagram or LinkedIn and seeing what developers are doing with the tools and

spk_0 what they're doing in augmented reality and it's extraordinary and we're just getting started that's

spk_0 what's amazing all the same time yeah yeah I mean and I love this thought I mean you mentioned this

spk_0 this this relationship that we have with technology it's kind of I feel like a lot of times humans

spk_0 humanity has this like tendency to just forget anything sort of like beyond 50 years in the past but

spk_0 it's it really is like I mean for three centuries effectively we operated as as humanity by

spk_0 defining humanity by defining our human experience around the limitations of our own brain it's like

spk_0 everything was just defined around like as compared to the human brain to the human you know experience

spk_0 of computing basically but then once we realized that we had you know we used basically logic and

spk_0 reason in all these formats of you know of human concoction to then understand that we have limitations

spk_0 that there are limits to the human brain and then based on those limits we started to devise

spk_0 tool systems to adapt those to those limitations so that we could extend beyond the limits of the

spk_0 human brain and start to apply you know to larger more corporate you know more sort of collective

spk_0 problems and so we started to industrialize and then we started the printing press and the various

spk_0 revolutions you know around the ways to distribute information and then we institutionalized

spk_0 information and all of that even starting with 300,000 years ago you know the 250,000 years ago or so

spk_0 I would say the development of language to collectively gather people's understanding together to be able

spk_0 to have common understanding around formed language I would argue that language is a technology

spk_0 and what we basically have been doing is co-opting interaction with one another but then once we

spk_0 realize that we could actually start to co-op our interactions with machines in various ways to

spk_0 move beyond our own limitations and once that began I mean that started effectively in various

spk_0 capacities with mechanisms but I would say digitally speaking maybe you know in this some may argue

spk_0 with me on this but I would say potentially you know in 1967 when Texas Entremons made the first

spk_0 sort of digital calculator and we started to actually start computing you know in various capacities

spk_0 that set up the age of computing effectively and it's just we really I think that humanity has

spk_0 a tendency to just forget that it's we think that we have this sort of you know we think that we

spk_0 have this this sort of clearly defined reality it's like this is our reality because this is what

spk_0 it is right now but we we forget that you know just even a hundred years ago that that same reality

spk_0 was really just defined that way by the technologies that were available at the time and as the technology's

spk_0 advance we then are able to advance our understanding of reality and reality is progressive and reality

spk_0 and how we define it is basically right now experiencing a major progressive boom you know a major

spk_0 expansion and I believe that you know what what you all are doing principally again the the extensions

spk_0 over web and all of that is it's so important for democratization but specifically with light

spk_0 ship and with real world mapping it really is introducing this notion of spatial computing of

spk_0 being able to compute on top of the real world so that you can potentially enhance the real world

spk_0 for the sake of people's understanding of the real world people's ability to sort of use the real

spk_0 world for reasons that maybe it wasn't it was never able to be used for in the past I mean you talk

spk_0 about making things new we're we're talking about moving the information layer from tiny little

spk_0 containers that cost a lot and are really hard to reproduce and removing that information layer

spk_0 on top of the real world in everyone's phone yeah exactly I mean I love everything you're saying

spk_0 you know I do believe that nothing is more human than augmenting ourselves with tools we've

spk_0 been doing this since as you mentioned like fire and so on so we do have to remember our history

spk_0 I think it's really important and and yeah I think that we're 3D creatures that have actually

spk_0 been working a lot in 2D and so it'll be really refreshing but absolutely new for us to now do a lot

spk_0 of things in 3D that's not to say everything is going to be 3D I mean if you look also at our

spk_0 history we're hoarders of media and we're not we're not usually wholly replacing one new thing for

spk_0 the other and what I mean by that is like look around you still have paper and books you have

spk_0 your TV you have your your iPad you have your iPhone you know so when when we think about glasses

spk_0 in particular and and air headsets of which you know huge milestone with the medacres 3 making

spk_0 you know a consumer grade air head more device available with a real path to volume of users for

spk_0 developers we need to not think of this as replacing all of what I just mentioned but more be additive

spk_0 and and so while there will be a lot of things that we do in 3D there there will still be you know

spk_0 2D books that we read and perhaps even 2D books in in virtual reality and mixed reality

spk_0 but it's going to take up a big shift in our thinking just across the board to understand

spk_0 what the opportunities are in in digital in 3D and so these early days of developers exploring

spk_0 things in the browser and in applications are really fundamental and they're going to set the

spk_0 tone and create a new UX language and you know set some of the guidelines that we're going to

spk_0 continue to use for years to come I have no doubt so it's a it's a really exciting time within

spk_0 within the space and I think in particular thinking about the myriad of devices really inspired

spk_0 one of the eighth wall platforms powerful features which we call met a virtual deployment

spk_0 which was really this rethinking about the the responsive web and understanding the need to

spk_0 bring into the fold you know ARVR headsets where you hit a web page and that web page can be

spk_0 experienced across you know smartphones tablets computers and now headsets and what does that mean

spk_0 and I think that's just like one example of like how we're going to need to like rethink

spk_0 things that we're already doing and from a brand new dimension the third dimension and so there's

spk_0 lots of opportunities there across the board for brands for developers for entrepreneurs and I'm

spk_0 excited to watch it all happen and I'm very humbled to be part of it by contributing technology

spk_0 and tools to help accelerate and supercharge that shift yeah I mean and you guys have seen

spk_0 you've you've seen some serious growth I mean just even to the developer platform I mean you

spk_0 mentioned there are obviously some advantageous aspects that happen in the market with air core

spk_0 air kit and stuff like that coming to the phone and light our sensors and things like that so that

spk_0 there can be more of a depth of field experience and all that kind of stuff so all of that set up

spk_0 nicely but obviously you have to maintain a platform and maintain a set of tools to basically enable

spk_0 you know it's it's not necessarily easy as again as as we know for from many years in the space to

spk_0 to maintain the standards of the worldwide web and also of a of a common tool system that adapts

spk_0 with ever changing capabilities and cameras and sensors and things like that it's this constant

spk_0 you know it's a constant balance you know balancing act that you all do on on behalf of the industry

spk_0 and so what how are you in terms of just in terms of that sort of developer store in people you know

spk_0 people joining the platform using in different capacities are you how are you seeing the developer

spk_0 experience shift now with just nuanced tools where you know generative AI tools and things like

spk_0 that sort of have made the the computing experience more human you know this must be exciting for

spk_0 the nature of sort of like bringing augmented reality to web and real world you know now that

spk_0 computing is more human we can speak and I can speak into GPT-4 you know and have a full-on

spk_0 conversation and create from there how does that how does that play into the sort of style of

spk_0 thinking that you are applying to sort of world building the tools yeah we're really excited

spk_0 about generative AI it's kind of like a peanut butter jelly relationship for I think immersive

spk_0 technology in general including nianctic platforms I mean on the eighth wall side we launched our

spk_0 genie i modules which I really allow for developers to more easily use open a i's dali to and

spk_0 chat GPT as well as a startup called in-brewed intelligent NPCs and so you know we're thinking

spk_0 about generative AI from a couple of angles one is really enabling developers to add generative AI

spk_0 to their AR experiences which in turn gives the user even more agency and more creative control

spk_0 and so you know by putting it a prompt for example in the a web AR sky effect project you can allow

spk_0 your user to be able to draw on the sky and then change the sky with the combination of genie i

spk_0 and and web AR and so you know this this would have been like a very complex project to put together

spk_0 that can now be easily created using the combination of the advancements in these technologies

spk_0 and so we're excited about watching developers add generative AI as a tool for users to use within

spk_0 experiences but of course we're also thinking about how generative AI can be used to accelerate

spk_0 asset creation you know we don't talk enough about 3d when we talk about AR VR and 3d content creation

spk_0 like 3d asset creation 3d asset optimization 3d animation rigging like all of this is very

spk_0 specialized skills and can take a you know a significant amount of time to generate and it can

spk_0 also be quite costly and so we're seeing early solutions in generative AI to accelerate the

spk_0 creation of 3d assets and so on and then the third area that we're really excited about is using

spk_0 generative AI as like a co-pilot and so how can generative AI really help the developer be super

spk_0 charged so they can more easily get to their hello world or to their launch projects so this could

spk_0 be you know anything from a generating code like fully on having a conversation like you said with

spk_0 chat gpt and chat gpt creates code through to like code completion like you know next level and

spk_0 tell a sense better ability to hunt through documentation and forums all the way through to really

spk_0 facilitating the the generation of metadata such as cover images or like marketing language and so

spk_0 definitely keep an eye on how niantic you know is using generative AI within the platform space but

spk_0 I think as a whole it's a really exciting time to see generative AI especially generative AI and how

spk_0 it is going to play a major role in AR and VR and I think to that point like one of the one of the more

spk_0 controversial terms that we've had in recent years as metaverse so I won't you know go into

spk_0 too much detail about whether or not you love metaverse or don't as a term but what I've always

spk_0 enjoyed about the idea of metaverse is that it really signals the coming together of emerging

spk_0 technologies for this next wave of computing and this is what we're seeing with the combination of

spk_0 geniei with AR and VR and so it means that we're getting to this maturing point within the

spk_0 emerging technology camps where we're able to see how they can not only add value on their own but

spk_0 more so how they can come together to really be this next wave of computing and that the folks

spk_0 working on generative AI and the folks working on AR are actually working on the same thing we're

spk_0 working on the future together and that really excites me so I think it's a it's a great time to

spk_0 see that happen and we're all going to benefit from it. I I agree I totally agree I love the

spk_0 peanut butter and jelly analogy but it's it really is you know it it it's a lot of times when

spk_0 you know the the technology kitchen sink sort of you know gets another new addition to it oftentimes

spk_0 it's just there's for some reason there tends to be the sort of like competitive nature and the

spk_0 way people talk about things but it's so additive it's so complimentary you know it's it's not sort

spk_0 of like is it this or is it that you know is it VR is it AR is it you know upper is it down is

spk_0 it left or is it right it's really it's really both all the time you know I I'm a firm believer in

spk_0 superposition and quantum entanglement and it's it is real in fact and so you know there is more

spk_0 connection than than what we think and so it's we need to divide things in in order to understand

spk_0 things but they're you know I really do think that the the ability to the ability to experience

spk_0 augmented reality at at the same time as your real world space you know you what you're doing what

spk_0 we're doing to the human experience is allowing it to expand and allowing us you know we're

spk_0 teaching ourselves new ways to understand ourselves and that was one of my favorite things about

spk_0 you know putting on the very first Oculus you know the rift you know the the very first the DK1

spk_0 you know it's just as like I got this sense of like I you know I'm going to be able to expand

spk_0 and understand more about myself than I knew before through this mechanism and that was just

spk_0 the beginning and now we're at this stage and phase that is yes so exciting because these tool systems

spk_0 basically allow us to compress the previous workflows exponentially and then it allows us to you know

spk_0 that's again sort of I find myself you know doing a lot of this work obviously when I'm not

spk_0 podcasting is you're doing this work of building these tool systems that support the ability to

spk_0 deliver you know content and it that those tool systems really is sort of like um you know are you

spk_0 going to pass out shovels at the gold rush you know it really is being able to the more the more

spk_0 people the more people can follow the example of niontik and others out there and and really generating

spk_0 meaningful tool systems the more we can actually expand the industry I mean the faster we can expand it

spk_0 instead of needing to flood with content as much and as and really more focus on the expansive

spk_0 tool systems that's what I'm excited about with the generative AI addition to immersive

spk_0 technology is that it really enhances the way that we're able to to leverage tools and it also

spk_0 totally changes and this is something that we're seeing is totally changes who can use those tools

spk_0 it's like in the past it had to be the specific archetype of a particular talent but now it can

spk_0 be applied to a subject matter expert a teacher you know a somebody who is working on the flight line

spk_0 or is you know whatever the case is they can actually be using this technology meaningful ways

spk_0 anyway Tom I really you know I'm really excited about what you all are doing and what niontik is

spk_0 putting out there and and really what you've been able to do to to shape the space I would love

spk_0 to before we part here I would love to know just from you personally I mean I know that there's

spk_0 a lot of exciting things that are happening with niontik and with the products and the platforms

spk_0 and things like that I mean what makes you what makes you sort of continuously motivated and passionate

spk_0 about this space right now I mean are you what are you seeing that that makes you feel really

spk_0 connected to it or makes you feel really sort of like gives you that real sense of hope you know

spk_0 well I would say the developers you know I I'm creators as you mentioned I think we're in a time

spk_0 when everybody is a creator you know when I mean that maybe more so on the social media side but

spk_0 we're seeing with these these technologies that that this is going to expand far beyond that and so

spk_0 every day that I wake up and I see that anything from a demo to a full-on application in augmented

spk_0 reality I get very excited particularly as I mentioned before with you know Metacrest 3 with

spk_0 full color pass-through and the Apple Vision Pro now announced it's very clear that the mixed

spk_0 reality headset category is coming together I've said it before this is a PC moment for AR head

spk_0 warn and it's a milestone in a moment that we've been waiting for for a very long time and so

spk_0 you know just seeing this this device come in the mail to my house I know last week

spk_0 and unknowing that it's not just early adopters but that this is like a device that's available to

spk_0 everyone everybody is like I hope this all get we all get like a surge of energy and a renewed

spk_0 sense of opportunity for especially those that have been in the space for a while and and so with

spk_0 the combination of that and mobile with the smartphone becoming an even more powerful you know

spk_0 AR machine year after year it's really go time for augmented reality it's a really exciting time

spk_0 for us to again explore be curious and have fun while understanding that what we're doing

spk_0 and through that exploration is going to set the tone and create the foundation for years to come

spk_0 and so I'm as pumped as always as I was back in 2009 when I kind of stumbled upon it with the

spk_0 help monical so that's awesome so you know I really I really think you know Tom that you

spk_0 that what is evident in your work and it shows I mean it shows in the success that you've had but

spk_0 you know what's evident is that you care deeply about you know making experiences that really

spk_0 matter and in those experiences they can be very simple they can be very profound but they can

spk_0 matter you know in really deep kinds kinds of ways and that's something that authenticity is

spk_0 you know it can be seen in and throughout at niantic and just the sort of the the commitment to

spk_0 communities and then being able to build and expand communities and those kinds of capacities

spk_0 and so it really is far beyond bringing AR you know AR capabilities to the world it's really

spk_0 sort of helping usher in the understanding of it and you know really being able to think beyond

spk_0 just sort of pull up my phone and do a game right that I can actually experience this across

spk_0 many different facets and so I'm really I'm personally excited to see how how people adopt

spk_0 things like lightship and change their understanding of augmented reality entirely like finally sort

spk_0 of start to allow things to have less segmentation you know have more blending you know

spk_0 really appreciate the time that that you spent just chatting and catching up and sharing with

spk_0 the world you know what's what's so valuable about what you're doing right now thanks Tyler I appreciate it

spk_0 you

spk_0 it is always an absolute pleasure to be able to hear from and to talk with Tom I mean just I mean

spk_0 from the very beginning I immediately appreciate the way that he identifies with being able to

spk_0 create newness to see something new something coming into focus and then being able to

spk_0 adopt it sort of right away even though the rest of the world the rest of the industry may

spk_0 look at it as some sort of niche product but really being able to understand the impact of

spk_0 wearable technology and then the translation of that into the content side of it in augmented

spk_0 reality and in really the ways that you know Tom has been able to transition from technology to

spk_0 technology as they've really kind of enhanced the way that humans can interact with the world around

spk_0 them no it really is now we are able to enhance the world around us we're able to change it we're

spk_0 able to add to it we're able to understand it in more depth and we're able to collaborate with

spk_0 more people around the world than ever before because of the advancements that Tom and his team

spk_0 have made we really appreciate the effort that they've they've made over the over the last decade or so

spk_0 to contribute so much more than technology to this space to contribute culture and inventiveness

spk_0 and adventurousness and it really is in and throughout the entire organization and we appreciate

spk_0 them for that this has been the VRAR Association podcast and we will be back soon

spk_0 thank you for listening this has been the everything VRAR podcast brought to you by the VRAR

spk_0 Association and recorded at Brightline Interactive Studios Tyler gates is your host

spk_0 Sophia Machasha co-host music by DO double productions we hope you enjoyed today's show

spk_0 if you did drop us a review and subscribe on Apple podcasts Spotify or wherever your favorite

spk_0 podcasts are found please visit us at the vra.com forward slash podcast if it involves the latest

spk_0 trends cutting edge innovation or the advancement of the immersive tech industry you'll be sure

spk_0 to hear it here so be sure to join us on the next episode

Tom Emrich, Director of Product AR Platforms at Niantic

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