Technology
The Symbolism of the Flying Tigers: Peking University's Wang Dong on the American Volunteer Group and its Historical and Diplomatic Usages
In this episode of the Seneca Podcast, Kaiser Guo interviews Professor Wang Dong from Peking University about the historical and diplomatic significance of the Flying Tigers, the American Volunteer Gr...
The Symbolism of the Flying Tigers: Peking University's Wang Dong on the American Volunteer Group and its Historical and Diplomatic Usages
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Welcome to the Seneca Podcast with the discussion of current affairs in China.
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In this program, we'll look at books, ideas, new research, intellectual currents, and cultural trends that can help us better understand what's happening in China's politics, foreign relations, economics, and society.
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Join me each week for in-depth conversations that shed more light and bring less heat to how we think and talk about China.
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I'm Kaiser Guo coming to you this week from Beidah, Peeking University in Beijing, my favorite city in the world.
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Seneca is supported this year by the Center for East Asian Studies at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, a National Resource Center for the Study of East Asia.
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We're going to turn today to a story from, well, the darkest days of the Second World War, one that has echoed three generations of both Chinese and Americans.
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The story of the flying tigers, the fake-wool-due, the American volunteer group of pilots who came to China even before the United States entered the war after Pearl Harbor.
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And who became legends for their exploits in the skies over Burma, over Yunnan, and beyond.
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Their shark toothed P40s and their daring tactics not only gave badly needed help to China's defenses, but also gave symbolic proof that China was not alone in its struggle.
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Now, for decades, of course, the flying tigers have been invoked as a touchstone in US-China relations, a reminder of a time when our countries were allies bound by a common purpose.
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From wartime propaganda to contemporary statecraft, their story has been retold, memorialized, and sometimes mythologized.
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My own father, who spent his childhood in Chongqing, insisted to me that as a boy he watched dog fights between what he called the flying tigers and Japanese planes over the skies of Chongqing.
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I never quite had the heart to tell him that actually the flying tigers themselves never fought in Chongqing, but there were a lot of Douglas planes that had the flying tiger sort of sharks tooth emblem painted on their nose.
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So you can see how quickly this whole idea became mythologized.
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Beyond the legend, of course, lies a fascinating question.
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How does this memory matter today? What does it mean when Chinese and American leaders or civic groups speak of the flying tigers spirit and how might we understand this legacy in the context of present-day US-China relations, which are obviously very different now from where they were during the war?
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I am delighted to have with me someone who has thought and written extensively about precisely this question.
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My guest today is Professor Wang Dong, who earned his PhD from UCLA and is a professor at the School of International Studies at Peaking University, where he also serves as Deputy Director and Executive Director of the Office for Humanities and Social Sciences and the Institute for Global Cooperation and Understanding.
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Professor Wang's scholarship and public commentary focus on US-China relations, Cold War history, and the uses of historical memory in diplomacy.
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He has been in a specially thoughtful voice in connecting the flying tigers legacy with today's efforts to stabilize and strengthen the people that people ties between the two countries.
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Professor Wang, welcome to Sinika.
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Thank you.
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Thank you, Kaizen.
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So with the anniversary of the Japanese Center just passed, having done the parade and everything, tell us how the flying tigers have been used as an emblem in public diplomacy and in civil society exchange.
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What makes this particular story so resonant among so many other stories of China and American wartime connections as a vehicle for normative outreach or even for soft power?
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The flying tigers remain one of the most potent symbols of the South American friendship.
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The story is commemorated through ceremonies, museum partnerships, and official speeches that highlight the sacrifices made on both sides and cooperation against one common enemy.
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But the story is so resonant not because it exists not only in official exchanges and memorials, but also exists on a level of civil engagement that has lasting cultural outreach.
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It exists in children's books, movies, novels, and so on.
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Our tourism, personal sacrifice, and perseverance as well as the daring aerial battles you just mentioned.
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Some of that lent cinematic force to the town.
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And the Chinese peoples' genuine gratitude toward this friendship, this wartime memory into an emotional engagement.
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And this story also delivered deeply connects with individuals through a clear good versus evil moral, you know, frame of that both nations can celebrate, enabling public diplomacy and civil society exchanges.
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That resonate far beyond the anniversary of Japan's surrender.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Tell me, I mean, you see, it's got this resonant emotional appeal.
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It obviously does. I mean, there were a lot of sort of, you know, heroics, dogfights.
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There have been television shows and movies about them in the United States.
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I'm more curious in China how they've been depicted.
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You mentioned children's books and things like that.
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What are some examples of the way that the flying tigers are talked about in Chinese popular culture?
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I think there is the flying tigers spirit has been celebrated also in the Chinese historical narrative about a ABGs.
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So the flying tigers spirit, I think, functions more as a moral narrative of trans-specific solidarity.
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Historically, it is a small, you know, sort of mercenary unit contracted by the Chinese nationalist government plagued by logistical constraints on even training and complicated politics.
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The narrative, however, highlights voluntary sacrifice across cultural friendship and a sense of shared destiny long before the United States formally entered the war.
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So in Chinese discourses, it becomes proof that foreigners recognize Chinese struggle against aggression and chose to help.
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In US rhetoric, it becomes a parable of individual freedom and humanitarian duty.
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However, I do not think there is also some people would describe discrepancy between historical facts and narrative.
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But I don't think such discrepancy is in a way negative because real sacrifice and made and real friendship is built.
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It embodies part of some cooperation without touching present flash points at the same time.
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Such abstraction is powerful and helpful.
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It is a precedent for constructive relations that could be sincerely recognized by Chinese and Americans and mobilized whenever the two sides seek common ground.
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So, Professor Wong, when people invoke the flying tigers today, especially when China brings up the flying tigers, who tends to be the primary audience?
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Is it domestic Chinese audiences? Is it the Chinese diaspora maybe? Is it US civic groups or, you know, is it the American state?
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Is it the US government? I mean, who is the, what's the intended messaging for the intended audience?
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Well, I think this is a very interesting question. I think even though different people, diplomats or heritage groups could adjust the framing accordingly to a different audience to deliver different messages.
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I think the implication of flying tigers, in hearing actually carries multiple layers of meanings to different audiences.
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For instance, for domestic Chinese, the story, rainforests, national resilience and international friendship, demonstrating that China's anti-Germany's war has won genuine admiration abroad.
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And for the Chinese diaspora, you also mentioned that it is a reminder that overseas Chinese communities can embody both patriotic, pride and global connectedness.
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And for US civic groups and veteran organizations, the message could be shared, sacrifice, and grassroots goodwill, keeping alive a tradition of altruism that transcends current partics.
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And of course, there is also the broader international audiences. And for them, I think the narrative showcases that Washington and Beijing have a history of pragmatic cooperation, even during turbulent times.
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So in China today, there is deliberate effort to preserve all sorts of legacy from the Second World War and museums and things like that.
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When it comes to the AVG, how does China seek to preserve it? Are there museums dedicated to it? Are there other memorials? Are there conferences that are held, academic centers? Is it the local governments?
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And how much of this is driven by central leadership as opposed to grassroots initiatives or local government initiatives?
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I would say the China's AVG memory infrastructure is quite diverse and actually layered. For instance, we have museums and memorial parks in various local provinces such as Yunnan, Guangxi, and Tongqing city.
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These are often built around former air fields, crash sites, and the key supply routes used during the war.
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Local governments usually play a very important role in taking charge of those projects by providing land, construction, and helping and organizing exhibits.
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They usually team up with some joes, private donors, and descendants, associations to gather artifacts and personal stories.
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And in addition to that, I think universities and local research centers usually also come in and help by digitizing documents, holding, you know, you measure conferences, and training tool guides to share this history.
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And indeed, I think my own issue is for global cooperation and understanding. A few years ago, we also partnered with the local institutes in Tongqing to help, I think, many of those events.
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And of course, the central leadership, you know, also serve for anniversary or significant events, how boost funding and media coverage.
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But the everyday operation of those museum and memorials are generally driven by local efforts. So curators, the Thai teachers and local historians keep things going with limited budget and partnership.
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The result is, of course, an ecosystem where I think the center amplifies rather than macro managers.
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Okay. Good. Good.
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I'm curious though, you know, since the 1990s, we've had a patriotic education push in China. And I'm sure the flying tiger story features in that.
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I'm curious because, you know, sitting alongside it, our other narratives about the US and its involvement in Chinese history that aren't so positive.
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So how do these two kinds of stories, one very, very positive, all about, as you say, altruism and sacrifice and the other, you know, about American bullying, American interference in Chinese affairs.
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How do these two sit next to each other?
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I think the most Chinese people, many Chinese people likely learn about the story of flying tigers outside of formal education.
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Oh, okay.
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Primarily through popular culture, novels and films, I can give you one notable example from the film called Forever Young, shot in 2018, which tells the story of a student from Qinghua University named Shen Guangyao,
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who is inspired by a real person and a giant self-flighting tigers, ultimately sacrificing himself in the battle against the Japanese.
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So while the film definitely convinced Sanso-Picciodism, but outside the film, I think the over-or message across the board emphasizes a sense of friendship.
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So foreigners who you ate, China's just a struggle, villagers who rescue airmen and sign American cooperation.
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So this cultural does not, I think, you know, does not clash with the broader narrative taught in Chinese school career career.
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So in most, therefore, in most educational contexts, US history is not treated as an isolated subject.
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Rather, it is, I think, an integrated into the study of world history, particularly during high school.
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So this curriculum spans significant events from the founding of the US up to World War II and beyond.
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Okay. Okay.
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So Professor Wang, you did your PhD in the United States in Los Angeles.
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On the US side, from talking to Americans, from even talking to people, you know, you were working with at UCLA,
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did you sense that there was a lot of awareness about the AVG and their role in China among the general public, among maybe veteran groups, even in the US Air Force?
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And is that leveraged on the US side in US China exchange at all?
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I think it was just a very interesting question. I think the awareness internationally actually, I think, is stratified.
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Frankly, I think among the general public, I think there is a lack of knowledge about the AVG,
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while limited recognition could happen around annuities and films and then fail.
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Variance organizations and air museum communities sustain higher literacy because the host lectures and exhibits.
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You mentioned US Air Force. I think within the US Air Force, my understanding is that AVG sits in the broader heritage of air power and collusion war fair.
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Practitioners leveraged this awareness through targeted programming rather than mass campaigns.
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Sister partnership with AVG sites, a museum to the museum exchanges and public ceremonies featuring both American descendants and Chinese counterparts.
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I think this effort actually worked because the convert nostalgia into real contact between peoples.
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So I think that's my understanding.
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Yeah, I mean, I'm a very big believer in people, people contacted and anything else that is great.
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But you know, the narrative is diverged. You were talking about how in China, there's a particular framing of them.
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US maybe when they do know anything about the AVG at all, there is sort of this America as liberator narrative, the story of freedom and the spread of liberal values.
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Whereas in China, it emphasizes anti-Japanese solidarity, emphasizes Chinese gratitude for American volunteers and things like that.
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Is there a way to bridge these narratives or do they cause problems with the divergence?
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Sure, of course, they are, you know, as you mentioned, divergent narratives surrounding the flying tigers.
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And I think these divergent narratives with flying tigers, they exist stem from distinct national contacts and historical memories.
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The American framing center on freedom and liberal values reflect is supposed to be identity, right?
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It's a defender of such ideals, highlighting the volunteer choice to fight tyranny, allowing with America's self-image as a champion of global freedom.
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China's focus on anti-Japanese solidarity and gratitude rises from its suffering during the anti-Japanese war.
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So the flying tiger support was a critical lifeline, symbolizing international aid in its fight for survival.
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So I think these narratives are not inherently contradictory and I believe they actually can be breached.
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At their core, both celebrate the flying tigers, courage and the lines against fascism.
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Emphasizing shared goals, defeating a common aggressor and honoring the mutual sacrifice, American pilots, as well as Chinese ground support, can unify these stories together.
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So I think a balanced perspective that acknowledge each nation's historical lengths while highlighting the common value of wartime cooperation,
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will help foster understanding, turning divergence into a richer collective memory of the flying tiger's legacy.
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So a 20-year-old pilot flying back then with Clare Chanel in 1940, he's 100 years old if he's still alive today.
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I mean, I think they're pretty much all gone now.
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All the pilots, probably the crewmen who flew with them.
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How are we going to preserve the memory of that beyond the deaths of them?
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Because are there enough sort of US civic organizations and Chinese civic organizations, the heritage groups, the sister cities,
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these friendships, societies that have been keeping it alive?
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Are they going to continue to be able to keep this alive now that there really are no more survivors of that time?
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You're right. I think this is quite a challenge. I think veteran associations, US civic groups and their Chinese counterparts have turned the flying tigers' memory into living exchange by centering shared storytelling, cross-cultural events, and intergenerational engagement.
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So thanks to the efforts, I think we are now days in a much better position in preserving those memories.
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The US veteran groups such as the Flying Tigers Association and the Chinese Heritage Organizations lead oral history projects, for instance.
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The record of veterans' accounts and shares them via museums, online platforms, preserving personal narratives, the transcend politics.
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They also co-host commemorative events such as annual ceremonies, marking key World War II battles or exhibitions such as displaying vintage aircraft or pilots, letters, etc.
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That through both countries, letting the public connect with history more tangibly.
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And I think sister cities and friendship societies also play a very important role here. They help expand these two daily exchanges.
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For example, US Chinese cities linked to flying tigers' history such as Kwamein and Tucson, round-student programs, US exchanges, joint research on the flying tigers or cultural workshops, that help teach younger generations about the story.
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So civic groups also facilities that people do people bounce, organizing visits for veterans' families to China or supporting community projects such as scholarships, named after the flying tigers.
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So altogether, I think these efforts from various different organizations, groups, they help keep the legacy from fading, turning historical partnership into an ongoing friendship.
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So Professor Wong, the flying tigers were not the only Americans in China's skies in those years. Actually, they weren't the only foreign.
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I mean, I was just reminded in a conversation I had with Ron Amitter about actually there were Soviet fighters who also were flying, but for another podcast.
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There's also the story, of course, of the Dulittle Raiders who bombed Tokyo in 1942, and many of whom landed in just young, actually you're from just young, right?
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Where Chinese villagers risked their lives to shelter the pilots. There was a show that I actually did with the daughter of one of those villagers, a very well known journalist here, who's been, she actually opened the New Sweep Bureau here in the early 1980s.
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Melinda Liu, her father was one of these people who helped the Dulittle Raiders, and she's done quite a bit of work on that.
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And so we talked about that on a show, and I'll put a link to that. But anyway, how do you see the Dulittle Raiders, and especially the Chinese who helped those airmen, complimenting how does that, you know, sort of work in complementarity with the flying tigers narrative in the political memory of the Sino-American relationship?
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I think I think you're right. I think the Dulittle Raiders and the Chinese villagers heroic aid, they compliment the flying tigers narrative, because it helped deepen the Sino-American memory politics, highlighting share, sacrifice at different stages of World War II.
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So while the flying tigers focused on sustained aerial battle between 1941 to 1942, defending China skies while I think the 1942 Dulittle Raiders was a bold one-time mission, devolly entirely on Chinese civilians, religious risk tortured or deaths to hide down to airmen, god is them to safety,
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and smuggled them to government forces. So this story echoes a flying tiger's theme of cross-national solidarity, but adds a grassroots layer, right, emphasizing that American Sino-American cooperation wasn't just between militaries, but also between ordinary people.
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So together I think this narrative actually paint a fuller picture together. The flying tigers organized our lives, the Dulittle rescuers, civilian heroes for memory politics, this brass, I think actually strengthened the message that by a lot of friendship is rooted in mutual courage, whether by pilots or villages.
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So you mentioned your show with Mr. Melinda Liu, for example, I think it helped amplify this by centering personal intergenerational stories, making both histories reliable and reinforcing their shared role in shaping Sino-American ties.
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Let's pivot now from history and memory to policy today, because the flying tiger story doesn't just live in museums, it's very much invoked at the very highest levels of diplomacy.
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So in the weeks, for example, before the Woodside Summit, that was just south of San Francisco, Xi Jinping actually signed his name to a piece that was in the People's Daily above the fold invoking the flying tiger spirit and the memory of the flying tigers.
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For somebody like me, it's obvious what that means. Every time if you're in China and suddenly all the turn on the TV, you see a lot of Korean war movies, maybe that sends a particular signal, but another signal sent entirely when you suddenly see the Chinese president writing positively about the flying tigers.
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So from your perspective, what was the message that Beijing was sending by emphasizing the legacy at that particular moment?
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And President Xi's reference to the flying tigers in his People's Daily's article just before the Woodside Summit, I think served several layers of purposes.
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First, domestically, it is signal to the Chinese audiences that Beijing's six stable, great-powered relations grounded in historical friendship, even when our relationship is going through strategic tensions.
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And second, internationally, it reminded the United States and its public of a time when American voluntarily defended the Chinese skies, implying that cooperation is not only possible, but also part of a shared tradition.
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And the timing is also very important. Just days before a high stakes meeting with the US President Biden, on the course, it desired to soften the atmosphere, offering a positive narrative that both sides find welcoming.
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So importantly, I think the invocation required no policy concessions while projecting goodwill. It is reminded that cooperation has president and therefore lumens imaginable.
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Therefore, I think it helps create goodwill atmosphere before the Woodside Summit, which actually turned out to be very successful.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I wonder how well these messages get received. I mean, do American policymakers hear them? Do they understand them? Do they land in the way that they're intended? I mean, I wonder whether they even are aware of the signal when it's sent, because the signal has to be understood in order to have a fact, right?
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You're right. I think I can only guess, of course, I think American foreign policy analysts, I believe they should treat the Chinese references to the flying tigers as sort of multi-dimensional.
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So simultaneously, it's a sincere outreach. And of course, there's also a bit of symbolism involved.
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So I think sincerity lies in general Chinese gratitude for wartime assistance, reinforced by robust local memorial culture. And I think Shunat, of course, dismiss American analysts.
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Shunat dismiss such gestures as mere propaganda, because flying tigers references are best read as a good way in vatation to de-askly and also explore practical cooperation, right?
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But referring back to the history of when we were friends who were fighting against our enemy.
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So it's in all of branch, obviously, but I mean, I worry though that, you know, because with the depth of the strategic rivalry today, I worry that invocations of the flying tigers legacy just become sort of hollow.
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They no longer mean as much to the Americans. I mean, they're viewed maybe even as cynical histories as sort of this kind of veneer, this sort of, what would you caution against in how we deploy history on how either side deploys it?
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Is there a danger of that at all D.C.?
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Well, this is a very important question. I think, you know, Emmett, today's Sino-American sort of tensions, I think you're right, there's real danger that flying tigers legacy become hollow, you know, reduced to rhetorical veneer to mask tensions.
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If we invoke without sincerity or respect for its co, which is mutual sacrifice and shared purpose.
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So the risk, I think, lies in quote-unquote instrumentalizing his right using the flying tigers.
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There's only for political purpose, like Token mentioning speeches without follow-up on people to people ties, or ignoring its nuances, you know, grossing over-path cooperation while fearing present just trust.
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So I think, you know, of this not only trivialize this very, very sacrifice, but also erodes public trust in such historical references.
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To mitigate such risk as a couple of things, I think, first, ground invocation in the full story of US-Chinese pilots and civilian working together.
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Second, linking rhetoric to action, if citing the flying tigers.
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It was tangible efforts, you know, such as supporting variant exchanges, funding joint, historical research, student, programming, etc.
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That reflect the legacy's spirit.
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Finally, prioritizing or sent, or senticity over symbolism.
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Let the legacy's focus on empathy and the collaboration guide engagement rather than using it as a superficial bridge without real commitment to dialogue.
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Only then does legacy retain meaning and we'll become lasting.
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So Professor Wong, if you were advising, you know, American diplomats, how would you suggest they respond to Chinese invocations of flying tigers?
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What tone and what substance would make that response more credible rather than just sort of perfunctory?
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What would you advise them?
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Well, let me think.
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I think the American diplomats probably should respond to Chinese invocation of the flying tigers with a tone that is warm but grounded.
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That means publicly recognizing the bravery of both American volunteers and the Chinese civilians and pilots who fought alongside them, right?
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Why avoiding vague, you know, plagues, tutes.
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Credibility comes from coupling words with concrete cooperation.
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So by offering specific mutually beneficial initiatives and inviting reciprocal commitments,
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US officials can turn a ceremonial reference into your platform for sustained people to people of contact and being inspired to start dialogue with our Chinese counterparts over president, disagreement rather than remain confrontational.
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Yeah.
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What are some of the other historical bridges that you would highlight?
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And we talked about the AVG of course and the Do-Lool Raiders.
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What are some of the other things in US China's sort of shared history? It doesn't even have to be just from the war.
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What are some of the other things in that portfolio between China and the US that you could draw?
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I mean, I'm thinking about stuff like, I mean, we're here in the idea and district and, you know, Shanghai University with the boxer and demnity, picking in medical college.
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What are some of the other things that somebody like me who tries to work hard to build these bridges should have at the ready in my back pocket to, to, to remind people of better times?
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Sure. I think the US China relations contain many stories of collaboration beyond flying tigers.
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The wartime medical corporations such as the quote-unquote China aid council filled hospital staff by Chinese and American doctors connect directly to modern public housing exchanges.
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And the United China relief which provided humanitarian aid and raised awareness for the Chinese people during the world war two is also another good example.
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So each of these histories I think carries concrete severely oriented lessons that can be translated into current cooperation and friendship.
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So looking ahead now finally, I mean, what role do you think this shared history can realistically play in at least stabilizing the relationship?
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I mean, can stories like the flying tigers shift the trajectory of a relationship that's, you know, as as complex as the one between the US and China today, especially when we have somebody like Donald Trump in office who, you know, does not exhibit particularly keen historical acuity or our memory of the street.
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Sure. You mentioned President Chomp. I think I think you watch the September sort of parade.
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He should actually in his, you know, he's on choose social media platform. He actually treats, you know, they're sort of American sort of element of American sort of recognition sort of, you know, contribution being recognized.
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Right. Actually, the flying tigers are being invited and other veterans groups have been for their families were invited to the parade.
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Yeah. So we probably should let President Chomp also know about that as well.
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Yeah.
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The shared history will not override structural competition, of course.
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But it can help keep the relationship from hardening to permanent hostility at least.
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So sorry, like the flying tigers help create this, you know, quote, quote, soft tissue right between the bombs of strategy.
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The reduced misperception by reminding both publics that cooperation is possible and has real president. They also provide ready made platforms, you know, heritage conservation disaster relief training student fellowship, etc.
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That encourage practical collaboration in now sensitive areas. These initiatives, of course, were not change the balance of power on resolve disputes over trade, you know, or security.
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But nevertheless, I think they can slow escalation that they can help build trust, you know, among public between our societies and also help preserve channels of communication.
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During, you know, times of tension. So in relationship, this complex as complex as the China US relationship, I think that layer of resilience is not, you know, cosmetic, I think.
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Yeah. It actually, it's meaningful. It's, it's real. It can be the difference between breeder risky confrontation and stable and healthy relationship.
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Excellent, excellent. Well, I want to thank you for your time. And I, at the end of the show, usually I ask my guest to recommend something. I'm going to ask you specifically to recommend a book or a movie or something in English that my audience could confine accessible about the flying tigers that you would, you would, you would really like.
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Sure. I think the movie I just mentioned forever, young. I, I'm not sure it's been sort of translated into. I'm sure there is an English subtitle of that. I think that movie is also about the history you mentioned that picking university, Qinghua University at that time, you know, the eight sort of most famous universities, they retreated to the Southwest because of invasion.
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And also against that part, historical backdrop. And of course, there's a young hero inspired by flying tigers and he actually joined the flying tigers and sacrificed himself for the nation and for, you know, fighting against fascism. So I think that's a very excellent, I think, movie. I will recommend.
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Great recommendation says the 2018 film. Yes, forever young. What's the Chinese name of it?
spk_0
Wondongxi. Okay. Okay. Fantastic. Thanks. I will definitely watch that. I haven't seen it before. I'm actually going to recommend a couple of TV shows I've been watching in tandem. Both just feature people who robbed drug dealers. Some reason they're both centered in Philadelphia and environments. One is called dope thief. It's on Apple TV. The other is called task on HBO and it starts Mark Rufalo and he's really amazing in it. Anyway.
spk_0
Thank you once again. It's been very generous of you to invite me here and to talk to me for so long about this very, very important topic. I hope that we can continue conversations about other topics in the future. Sure. Thank you for having me, Kazut. It's my pleasure.
spk_0
You've been listening to the cynical podcast. The show is produced, recorded, engineered, edited and mastered by me, Kazut.
spk_0
Support the show through substack at cynical podcast.com where you'll find a growing offering of terrific, original, China related writing and audio. Email me at cynicapodatgmail.com if you've got ideas on how you can help out with the show or just to provide feedback. Don't forget to leave a review on Apple Podcasts.
spk_0
The enormous gratitude of the University of Wisconsin-Madison Succer for East Asian Studies for supporting the show this week. Huge thanks like guests Professor Wachton.
spk_0
Thank you for listening and we'll see you next week. Take care.
spk_0
You