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The Ship of Theseus or why Pakistan cricket never really changes - Episode 83
In Episode 83, the podcast delves into the enduring nature of Pakistan cricket, drawing parallels to the philosophical thought experiment, the Ship of Theseus. The hosts discuss the consistency of iss...
The Ship of Theseus or why Pakistan cricket never really changes - Episode 83
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اگر سوکی ہم ایک جزل کی WOODRUFF
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اور تھو 39 جوسٹی بھ submar Compare
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حshaped کرتے سکو لڑھا
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إلا مطلب ان بیشت لقت ایگằو
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اب finance
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بہت کچھ دنے پہلے سمن شیرد this video about Jared Kimberner لگائیتی اپنے سوشل میڈیا پہ اور اس پہ بات کہتا کہ اس نے بھی پاکسان Men's team کو ایشاکہ پہ میں دیکھا اور پھرے مین's team کو
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وولکپ میں دیکھ سایا اور دونوں ٹیمہ میں ایک ہی جو اشو جو اس کو نظر آ رہا تھا کہ جب بیٹرس کھیل رہیں تو وہ Strik to Tate نہیں کر رہے باولرس کے پر باپس پرشر نہیں دال رہیں
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او اس و جس پر پر پرشر بڑھتا رہتا ہے اور اس نے بات کی کے پہلے ایسے کافی کلاڈی ہیں جو رہتا کل سکتے ہیں جا سکتلاڈی ہیں جو جل دی تیس دیس کل سکتے ہیں
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but اس طریقے کسے نہیں ہے جو ایسے لامینگ's kailsاکیں اور Strik to Tate کر رہے باولر پر پرشر دارنے ویرہ ہے
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Jared Kim video I think that was a great point جہاں پہ میں اختلاف تھا کہ اس نے مسال دی کے پہلے آپ کے پاکسان کے پاہ سکتلاڈی ہوتے تھے جیسے کے شویب ملک
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اور یہ بیسکلی یہ video تھی جس کے ویدہ سے this whole thing that you're watching came about
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اور میں اس کا لنگ دالنگہ نہیں چے آپ دیکھلی جے کا Jared کیا کہ رہتا ہے
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but because the first thing I feel that I felt that I was a little bit lonely in the first place
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and I don't know maybe early 2000s a little bit but I didn't feel that a little bit is a great example of this or in fact
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ایک طریقے سے مطلب میں یہ سوچ رہتا ہے کہ کون ساگر میں سوچنگ پاکسانی بیٹر ہے
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who is very good at rotating strike and putting pressure back at the bowlers
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تو I'll be honest you really have to go all the way back to javed miyadad
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اور I know ki miyadad ki khab stop at millennials میں ویک میمت جو کائی سنگل دبللو
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فلوغر اینا وغرر اوجد that infamous video
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but and I only saw the real end of miyadad's career
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میں اس کے باوجود بھی this was really really obvious
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that what a high IQ batting approach particularly chasing
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or even just in like any kind of white ball cricket looks like
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in the sense that the white ball was not there but اس کے باوجود بھی کے پوجو
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I think jagbadi iconic ہے کہ نیا took kar kaap na na na na na na na na
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miyadad was amazing at that
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making the field have to change because he was exploiting something
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and
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و ایک کسم کی مدباکہ نظر آتا تھا کہ there is this expectation
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that the batter in that position can really dictate
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ki وہ بولرز or fielding side اس کو کس طرف سے کھیل رئے
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جو جیانت جبات کرتے کہ آپ نے bowling side ve wap is pressure dala
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اور in fact
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ایک تفہ میں نے تعارے کالم کنتریو گیا تو جس فواد االم کے والے دے ہیں
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اور
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ہی تاکت میں about the cricket culture of Karachi in the early 80s, late 70s
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جب تک ابھی تک تیب بال کر اجھان اتنا نہیں تھا
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اور یہ شام کے وقت you know does be so over a match or a lot of time
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یا 20-50 so over a couple not quite does over not that truncated
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but still he is like limited over games
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اور اس میں وہ بات کر ذہیتے کہ فینشر کا روال کتنا اہم تھا
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وہ جو ایک ایک ایک مدل آرڈر اپر not the openers but like the middle
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order batter is expected to be able to navigate both spin and base and the pressure
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and the required rate and what he was explaining was that he was not the finisher
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just as you can see that he would have to go up and get a shot of him and then he would have to
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but somebody who can really get on top of the chase
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اور وہ جو ارٹیکل تھا وہ اینڈیتہ I was trying to talk about Karachi
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اور ایتھنگ کے میں نے لکھا تھا تو میں نے صرف راز ایمان دوار مونخان
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اور ایک دول نوں کی مصال دیتی
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but really the archetype which he was talking about was really after meadah
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you don't see a lot of fin in 5 سانگ رگے
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اور پیز سپیس پچھم لگی رسکتے دی چیمان نے ذکر کیا تنا اگری
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بھتھم کہ درریدی اذر گئے in the modern era just keep both high cricket iq
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کے ساتھو باتیں کرل آتطا اور جو اس بھی ایمل دو پل it off was in the mom
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think in the mom in the mom my analysis is that in the mom spent a lot of his genius figuring out ways
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to be lazy on the feet because I think if you are not sorry
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because I think if you have followed the casual level so the thing you know about in the mom
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his ke arwa jee beokuf tari ke sa outo tata and most notoriously he had the worst runouts
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his runout is what made johnny famous his runouts happen throughout his career
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but that I think that part of his game came out when in he was being a bit lazy or just you
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he was never ready somebody ke wathlaba chaquik singles there I repeatedly or you know doing
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things that for purely in the service of making you know okay this is the best possible
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opportunity to take right now I think in Z had a lot of confidence in his skill and in his ability
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and he didn't maybe need to do certain things but he also wasn't going to do certain things
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now here because man nahi hai to a kisman has a much better memory than me and b
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usman is always I feel like able to remember facts and incidents
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jameerie hai hai aif aiding ke pher tho rha sala ghaap dee tain but abu nahi hai to let's have to
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live with it but if I'm getting something really wrong please feel free to let me know in the comments
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but yeah like I think in zimam ke baad agarab gejo jo jajadid jiske sam ki vaatikar lah tha ka
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ab smart batting kar rehan you're putting pressure back and then you're rotating the strike
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their players who've had that ability or that skill and definitely a
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hi iq players to khali hai iq paag kistan ke liye and I'm sure that some of the people who
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nikal dee is asi si us asi, the people are running so much and the people are running so much and the people are
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running so much but I'm basing this and I'm basing almost all my cricket analysis on the vibes and I
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think I'm not wrong in saying that ab me agar baal is sal ki my ruhu biya patis chattis al
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sa zadha se my cricket dik taar aam to paag kistan cricket agar ek movie aay to hardda
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waas movie ka aur alas gohi script oot iye. Chaibo mard khal rayon aur te khal rayon
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bhaj khal rayon bhoode khal rayon paag kistan mi khal rayon aur khal rayon
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dee is generally like you know it's harsh to say it's exact same script but 3-4 kas am is
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script same jo amisha oot iye. And obviously if you look at the highest highs 92
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2009-0700 they happen across 25 years but 3-0 kis kripp kitt ni se mila ray ki
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completely down and out net run rate calculation wo s ko hra hai tu s ko hra hai me as ko maru
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and then all of a sudden you're you're playing really great cricket in only the few matches when
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it matters and you end up winning against all the odds but agar ye highs ento the lows ki jo script he
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bobe you nekhi ka aur roodaf hadek liye rayon aur abhi jo asha ka up je se khatam wa
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to usme khaas tord pe jo pehle do matches in India se haare yaa peh jo patches you know mangla
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deesh kaha raashi langkao ba raayos supe schlewa di svees mein agar hain sahn ko ha raayon
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to all of like you know dee that script felt very very similar to abagat ditees ma bhi dee
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kirao dee baak saatke matches sure maybe the the the teams change or whatever or you know
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steaks change etc but the script to me feels very very similar aur iske jo moje pata agar beh
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bhaap sa aayon about that high IQ part you're wanting to talk about kuh meh geh
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bilkul bhi ni kena chala ki asa niye kabhaa kisan kurgut maghaa IQ players ni aayin ni aayon ni aayin
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sab sim pehle moje pata hai ki fiddain imis ba mere gargivam har parar dhalla shudu kaatenghe so
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let me acknowledge that yes there have been smart cricketers but jab meske baari meh kmeh liss
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banarata oke peepal dee rai thot for like high IQ critters in recent times like like misbao gaa
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apka saflazaa maa shadaa ahm riswan aayin moalto say hummeh jas a misba phaamne most of my cricket writing
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career was spent legislating this ke there's no doubt about misbao's cricket acumen but he also had
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a tendency to get dogmatic and he has a tendency to definitely get conservative or waita ke jahanpe
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misba ki kui zawadha sainsighto ki to dhuzi dhalla bho bhi insist kalega ki you know like austriey
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ame jasar Shah ko 3 6 field kya saat moalinkar aning sa aayin like you know he would get that way
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and particularly he has approached towards constructing white ball cheeses was very controversial
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abwo ab dal dhenge aur oge hulpeetikiske whatever the hell the end result was the same
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i thot with riswan kabe aay masla tha ke ziz very smart cricketer be tense to be very conservative
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and then you get people like sir for asan shadaa which i feel
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but generally speaking kya nki up in the performances often were the main reason that their place
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in the side was an issue because as tacticians or rada they were definitely on top of it
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and were very very proactive but is sub kib baavujud bikyukir ke kya bi apiyam setif baat ka rean ka
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apni chayis bhin you know white ball me batting kya sa ka rean but we talk about game awareness
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or cricket bike you or jubis kwaap kya na chayin to obviously it applies in lots of different places
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right or
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madhab mjhe iska je jared wali jab yabathuriti to usip jo ekor cheese ka khayala rata waske
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2015 ra mein paaksan ja boel kap kya rata so they had surfras in the squad but they would play
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omarakmal as the keeper and overakmal and bat him at six i think or
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nahi yes but i was a complete i remember getting very upset about this
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apir finely allah kya kya nes surfras emat kusawd aafra hai khilap match milaay and i think
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it was batting up the order as well i may be open rata hai kya ta but he played really well
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bachas marius niyon mebara akshaatit ta or twit shuit kata ta and then someone like an
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indian non-pagestani basically twitted kyaar bhai kya akshaatit or hai and
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ematum lumme doso bees se do badaan hai aur jahi wo
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usip ke baavujud wai doso bees badeh and there was a great match paaksan one but
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that really stayed with me right aur wo uske baad bhi i think uska mjhe abhi khayala akshaatit as
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ashaat ke waak krikinfo pe danial rasul great article with great just headline as well ke
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ke kyaar baad baaksan say what paaksan do and the things in between or something like that and
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and baat wo ka rata salman aliyaga and mike hesson and all that they talked about playing
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aggressive doing this doing that and i think jo kaafisari cheeseon baat dan ki dkarsakne
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but that decision to have whos antaleth in the squad instead of navas and then and from what i
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hair shayat i believe the player himself was not ready to play but you get who say talethin jo at
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this point i think most of us know what he plays like aur wo usko dhwadi keem in into that match against
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india the second match against india and the way he played and everything up here
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nyo danial i linked that as well wai danial nebhaa daak shitari kya se samab kya tha ki
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jo salman aur hesson jo baatain kar reita and the context here is ke salman aliyaga in particular
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basin as a high IQ player and was also a pretty controversial choisers captain
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but what was ki usp aiti ke adi bada reliable and smart and guy who can like you know go testman
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particular he's he's like this this absolutely insane numbers have been for pagistan and and
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soaks up a lot of pressure place of red innings aur aara to ushi tali kya se yahi
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sochi ki kya you know he offers something different but if you remember the
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kaptency was being thrown around quite unfairly taken away from Shaheen Shah Fri
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the given back to bawa raazam and for bawa raazam team maine to wessay dos superstar
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aske dalmi anka tani ka jha kada tha jaskye beach ma salman aliyaga ka ki jablaya gya
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tha so do thinking was ki ok this guys a smart captain right and then you pair him up with
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اس پیسہل کوچھ اور میں پہسن کی خود کی بہت زبر دست سیوی ہے وہ زبر دست رزیوی ہے
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اف لائک ورال ہیز چیفت اتنہی ہی ہی had all these great ideas
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ان پروجیز او گیلہ او گیلہ او گیلہ او
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اور اتنے آرسہ بطل پاکسانٹ رکٹ پیل لکتے وی اور رپورٹ کرتے ویے بغیلہ او گیلہ او
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او او او او very much aware کی صرف قفت اغنہ رکھوچ پے علظام تہرانا
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تیمیز جس طریقی سے بات کرتی ہیں این ایک ریلی ودلاؤس جیس آل اگر آپ اتاکہ دیکھنے تو اُس میں
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کوئی وازے فارک نہیں آیا ہے دے ویسنٹ any time that I feel and again this is where
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Osman might have challenged me but I don't think I have seen anything and so
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جب یہ ایسن اور آگا پے خاصتا پے میرے قائد شوی بلیٹریدی بہت اپستا گئی آر
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it's one thing to lose but it's one thing for these guys to be putting out the same kind of
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performances that more conservative or less tactically aware you know more dogmatic coaches and
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captains had done or اسی کے بارے میں جب میں سوش رہا تھا تو I was like I mean if you
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go back to it to again a foreign coaches to deflead you to Bob Wulmer مرحوم at least I
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think 21st century may yeah in fact all of cricket کی طاری ایک مصلاح one of the greatest
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coaches of all time just based on his simple resume other than the fact that all of those
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innovations and the kind of education it about coaching and techniques and all that
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and Bob Wulmer is Pakistan team had an amazing run some amazing results particularly in
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test match cricket but you know Wulmer was not able to prevent Pakistanism right and obviously
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unfortunate the last match that that he was coached for is a great example of it but
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اسی پہلے بھی ویو you know the fact that when I first thought that big games but
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اکسل پاکسان بھی game بھی نہیں ہوتا ہے مطلب دیسا بھی امریکہ سے ہار گیاتا ہے
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this is a video menos ape menos ape loves me but you know to a less experienced team
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سے بھی ہارتے ہیں تو اس وقت بھی یہی ہوتا ہے کہ وہ اپنے اپنے
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پر انہیں پر اشردالا ہوتا ہے right and so that was something that was true in
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that Ireland game in 2007 and then you had me key Arthur coming again another coach with a lot
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of success outside of Pakistan so that for a good father in the series GTI
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وقت ایک ایک ایک برش سے سب کو نہیں پینٹرنا چا رہاہ and you know
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if you go to the sea then obviously there are things are different about each era
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and each captain sea and coaches or some high is uchete and some low is not
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a lot of things but what I am trying to keep coming back at is that have things really
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substantially changed or just three kese but the reason I am giving you the reason
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that I remember this feeling before as well anytime some big change happens
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in the world or the game or domestic system but the other PSL
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started or international cricket was also a guy whatever you want to say like we had
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these false norms before or or anything but I don't know in fact you know
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abhi mayi sotsadakiju dohazar satala ka chaapin trophy final that like I think when
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enough time passes that in particular is such a crazy anomaly it's almost like
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just in 96 the world cup final because 96 the world cup final minutes in
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lanka na Australia kwa raata and in the 30 years since we've realized that
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literally quick kiamat atiyat abhi jake Australia
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world cup mehartar final meh to kui bhi ni halapakao ni achi satchi team leo
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apni
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ushi tariqa se dohazar satra ki final me pakistan ne apni batting ke baadala
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tik maad jita and I know like the ballers had were amazing and and everything
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but like the batting clicked and performed really well and I remember
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uswakmanik tweet kya tha ki o this is what 90s tournaments were like you bat
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when the toss bat first part of a big total blow away the Indian side but
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farkus meh yet aki tews 90s kisi biyuz 90s team ne ae
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dos want icc tournaments but it is a bit of an apples or in just comparison
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with 90s mun kitti ae miyat nae te but none of the 90s teams were inheriting
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like multiple decades of failing against India in every major event right
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or ush pressure ke baadwaju daap ki team ne jis tariqa se kheela taos meh
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maybe that fakar zaban no ball switched it or whatever but that particular match
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is such a huge huge huge huge anamali because even apki jau I would argue
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that 92 2009 kye final zi te te at the batting definitely did well but it was
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it didn't go crazy and the bowling was crucial but it's qualifier am aapni
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bohz badi misaldi but I'm emphasizing that final only because it is in star
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contrast to everything that came before and after aki jubi buddy wins ae
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like you know for agar ka ord misal ne dos ae ikkis ke world t20 meh
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jub india gotas fikto sa raayata so you might say oh that's a great performance
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but I feel that is much closer to the script because again your bowlers had
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done an excellent job or exo baaban exo kaaban ka tardgatna which was the platonic ideal
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for rizwan and baabar is a t20 batting to again I feel all of those scripts are
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about the bowlers doing really really well and batting not doing anything
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incredible and apart from that 2017 final but just batpea vaapis dharae
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jalao aur vaapis sam kaadni ko lalao bu yehi hai ke gik tis saal se am buhi
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match dik te aare right and so many different ways and ispe jo ik
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ik philosophical ik cha kye te allegory hai ha man is called the ship of
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thesis aur mujhe yeh se reisliyat ki ki meh ne ik mouvi deki teel
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zan indian movie which like an art house film jis ka nam ship of thesis ta
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and I remember being really really impacted by that film abhi
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jub meh rekord ka na lagatan i looked it up again i realized ki mujhe
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I just remember like maybe one third of its plot and I had my memory had
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confused it with another plot which was actually from an ad for organ donation
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or men and dono go joh to the other plethora man point is you can go watch it
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I thought I really loved the movie but I have looked it up I realized I
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didn't remember most of it but what stayed with me this was the first time I was
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introduced to this concept of ship of thesis which goes back to
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pre-times because he philosophy everything yada but savala sae yada gik tis
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tis tiye to you know ske aap repair karta tan maybe you change like one part of it
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like the master something you put a new one in then you repair the roof or
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sko hata ki nae lagadetan aur pit joh halu ta yos kunikah and at some point
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ki uski jobi original purze parts or aadathe wo sub replace ho chukin
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but not all at the same time right and so like you kept using it the ship was
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till the same was name the same was being used for the same functions but it kept
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changing and saval ye yota ay ke agar bu sub ko chus ka jo original
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o badaal bi chukai is it still the same ship or not and
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agari aapko baat nahi saam ajai or ya azadah confusing aay whatever I think
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sports teams are the best examples of proving the ship of thesis
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wala thesis correct because sports teams are in the same
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asar aayah ii ma mi saal paakstahan team ke baad miin deyara
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chahar aam ke agar 35 aal sae tali saal sa me saakko diktar aam toos
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me bhoord ke tamam dog badaal gaay khalari badaal gaay kochis badaal gaay
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keel khud badaal gaay aapura like cricket didn't even have another format
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that it does now didn't have franchises and these huge
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these are it does now and uske elaha metla just just just
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mahal mei just society mei gheli jari ti deki jari ti
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follow ki jari ti o naayi sae badaal ki aapot cricket ka kirdar
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i biu society mei bhaat aag badaal chukai
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everything is changed but the pakstahan team still plays the same way
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and that really fascinates me right because like
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ki ye teamu ka that's the easiest way i think the sports teams to kind of see
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this ki unka kirdar aaxa ni maadal taan aap
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like a football ki masalut haagdik ni right
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to taught nim ki team ke baad miin maatab 90 se mashuray ki
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tige stylish while is khalingay but you know they'll bottle it or they'll lose
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in the big games they'll never win anything and has been kind of true for them
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since then there's like you know a lot of like
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ke Dortmund ke bil Aapyade mei biakshur ye hi ka haja
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there are lots of teams actually that were like kind of play really well
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but they end up losing or other teams like Madrid that were you know
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really dominant and they'll always win the final wakar aap
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to ab is maybe aapshayat ye bhees kare kinei diki hai
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wo peise ki wa jase ralmadir baasun naagye teama bheet aayi
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or shai you know just etlite ko ki wa masal dein wala ta ki
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you know they're always unlucky and losing to
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Real Madrid etc etc all etlite ko ki burid in biai
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wo relegade biho gaaap yap yap yap yap yap yap yap
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onke pisladuz bhi saalb bode achi din biai wae
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ba you know they still keep losing them with
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red in the finals even though like players and coaches and everything
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if change at Dortmund ke baad mii jake na wahara jad
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aur you may giazak ki tige kya ka paise kya baat karye
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ta american sports mi ajanja bhaat unka struktur
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is a lot more equitable but even there you look at teams
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like Cleveland Browns og ae you know there's New York
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Jets within the NFL the NBA ben Charlotte
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ke team New Orleans ke teama kare kare kare kare kare
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there are these like teams that have been terrible
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even though the system there keeps has a salary cap
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and everyone gets drafts and palanakalana ae wo
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us ke baad joud bhi
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there are teams that remain the way that they have been
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for a very very long time and as a nige ga baad el niqsak te
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wath lab kya sa kya Arsenal ki jo
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pre-Arsen Wenger jake ek image he was the complete polar
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opposite of what it became afterwards
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you know he was able to change that completely in his image
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you you see that in other situations as well
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again like Barcelona before let's sit like you
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on the guard you lie also peli rikear sa peli bhi
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aap chale jai ae te just had one European trophy
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you champion zik in all those years and you know
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again for very inconsistent parayatu
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teams can still change
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sometimes but more often than not given that everything
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is changing the coach is changing the sports is changing
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the times are changing the players are changing the tactics are changing
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the fact that they remain the same I think is really really crazy to me
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and I think abu su ke saat abu
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PSL ek bhaat interesting cheeser right
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because if you say that you are a very good team
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that this is a problem and we interview
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bashim akram and we asked him
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that this is the hard defa
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that he is doing at run rate or I have
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the cliches I hope I don't have explain them to you
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and he said well you know this is what the country is like
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and what the country has been like for so many years
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so the team is also going to be like that
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and and
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ye he am ke te te ke ham national team ke to be issues
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and ke board ke maslein government ke maslein
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kus ke maslein mus ke maslein
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the PSL gave you this opportunity to see
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okay what are these Pakistani players doing in different environments
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right or ab das sal hooch
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okay
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it has given us enough data points
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and some kind of you know ups and downs
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to kind of understand things
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and again like
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again PSL my ownership hasn't changed that much
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but a lot of other things have changed
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but you look and you can see those teams
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also have pretty clear identities right
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ke ab ke pas
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Karachi gang says always been steady in giving
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the least amount of effort and are the least successful team
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in 10 years
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I think
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Multan and Islamabad both you know
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very give you those
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bubbic shawargar vibes
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at chitu shud pijat thai
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at chis kud mapar thai
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but you know
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Aksal
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in the big moments
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don't have the best record
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Islamabad had this like terrible playoff record for a while
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Multan has lost his whole bunch of finals
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I think with Pishawar and Quetta
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again
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really good teams
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but teams that have also shown
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tendency to value loyalty for maybe too long
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and hold on to big names
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or people that they're close to for longer
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than they need to causing these slums to happen
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and then you have Lahore
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which I find the hardest to understand
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but also the closest to what
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the Pakistan national team is extremely mercurial
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first your last at the HMH are really believe
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and like talent
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really don't get caught up too much
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and like
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you know
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doing things a certain way
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etc etc but
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Ghenega Meena
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Bama Samaksa Diya Itaq
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in team home maybe
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you know
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they may have been not as many changes as we've seen
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in the national team for all those years
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but as enough time has passed
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as a decade has passed
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and lots of things have changed
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Jeebi Chekhi Chek Franchises
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Jaiha have like kind of found this identity
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and they're kind of staying around that identity
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and changing that identity
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can be quite difficult
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I think one of the most compelling things about Lahore
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was that while they definitely made changes
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and they're definitely locked out from the draft
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fundamentally they didn't change who they were
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I think that really guided them through
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that vibes on Kithini Ni Bhadali
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the same vibes took them to three titles
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and the same vibes took them to seven last place finishes
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and I think that
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Ghum Ghuma Ki Jubat
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Aati Hai ki
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it seems like you have to do a lot of analysis
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and do that
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like the identity of the teams
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and their identity
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and their thoughts
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so I'm not talking about tactics
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I'm not talking about the talent
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I'm not talking about like specific situation
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what I'm talking about is
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the identity of teams
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I think that that gets established
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and that becomes very very difficult to challenge
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and maybe you can challenge it in little ways
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etc etc but the pressure moments are not high level
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which moments are not
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teams revert back to that identity
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and that's something that really fascinates me
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because it's not like
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yeah identity
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it is all these cues
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and clues that we're taking in
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and internalizing
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and getting caught up in
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people like Vulman
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people like Hassan
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who are very ideological coaches
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when they come into the system
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how hard it gets to break out
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how hard it gets to do things differently
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and how sometimes
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if you're trying to do something different
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then you can reach that mode
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where you're going
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that you are trying to avoid
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and I think that to me
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it's a really
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challenging thing as an analyst
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it's probably a frustrating thing
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when you have to like
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if you're upset
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if you're thinking
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that you're going to be a K-log
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or you're going to be a blank down
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or you're going to be a blank down
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but as a writer
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I also find it endlessly fascinating
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and I find it so compelling
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and it really makes me question
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what is the fanhood
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and what we do and what we get
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because when it comes down to it
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when you think about
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the things that we see
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from the past few years
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so much can change
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so much can be different
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so much can be
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according to the latest trends
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or going against the latest trends
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or exposure to this
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exposure to that blah blah blah blah blah
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but anyway
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all of us
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over the last three or four decades
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have been sitting on the same ship
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and going on the same journey
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and I don't think that's going to change