The Lizard Man of Scape Ore Swamp

Interactive Transcript

Speaker A What if the truth about our reality has been hidden in plain sight? What if aliens, consciousness and ancient spiritual wisdom are all connected? I'm Rob and this is Unveiled, a podcast that dives headfirst into the biggest mysteries of our time. Each episode, I sit down with thought leaders, insiders, experiencers, and visionaries to explore the unknown. From the UAP phenomenon and government coverups to alien abductions, remote viewing, and the metaphysics of consciousness. This is not your average UFO podcast on Unveiled is about peeling back the layers of reality, of belief, of ourselves. So if you're ready to challenge the mainstream narrative, expand your mind and discover what lies beyond the veil, hit follow and join me on this journey into the unknown.

Speaker B Have you ever felt like you were being watched from the shadows late at night? What would you do if a creature jumped on your car as you were trying to escape? What entity is lurking near Lee County, South Carolina? Today we test the believability of the lizard man of scape or swamp.

Speaker C Welcome to Believing the Bizarre, where we.

Speaker B Dive into the unknown and the unusual.

Speaker C And tell you whether or not we find it believable.

Speaker B You're yelling at me again. Back to back weeks. Thank you everybody for joining us on this episode. We're back in cryptid territory and we're going to the low country down south.

Speaker C Where they got the good food.

Speaker B Big ass ribeye is what they call it in Savannah. There's a. There's a restaurant in Savannah where they have a big ass.

Speaker C I was thinking specifically fried chicken. I do like fried chicken.

Speaker B Well, I want to shout out Harry Brown, the lawyer from South Carolina, but I'm also gonna do that.

Speaker C I think Stephen Colbert is from South Carolina. I know he is, actually. Yeah.

Speaker B But I hope everyone's having a great week. Reminder, our live Halloween special episode is coming up. It is October 18th, which is Saturday at 9:30pm Eastern. It's gonna be live on YouTube, which means it is Friday free. You just have to be on YouTube and you can watch it. It'll be a scary story presented by Charlie will be on site. Ish. There'll be games, trivia. You can win some BTV merch. It's always a good time.

Speaker C Yeah, YouTube's also free. Free account. So lots of free stuff.

Speaker B That's what I meant. Free. It's all.

Speaker C I was on the same page.

Speaker B I mean, Twitch is free too, but it's. There's.

Speaker C It's less free.

Speaker B There's no pay to play here. It's just show up and we're going to tell you about some Spooky stuff.

Speaker C Excited to talk to you.

Speaker B And it's a great haunting. Right. I assume I don't know anything about it. Purposefully.

Speaker C That is a fantastic haunted. Yeah, it's a good haunting story. And also, this is being recorded before we go to this Bigfoot Jamboree. If we've met you there. It was a pleasure to meet you.

Speaker B That's right. We'll be able to speak more to it when we're physically there afterwards, when we record the next episode.

Speaker C Yes.

Speaker B But we're looking forward to the Bigfoot Ohio. The Ohio Bigfoot Jamboree. But it hasn't happened yet, but I assume it'll be great. So today we're talking about the lizard man. The lizard man of scape or swamp.

Speaker C Scape or swamp. Sounds like escape or swamp.

Speaker B Die. Escape or swamp.

Speaker C I assume we'll talk about this in the episode. But it's in South Carolina, which is the lower Carolina, obviously.

Speaker B It's kind of like the southern Carolina.

Speaker C It's. Yeah, there's North Carolina.

Speaker B Not gonna lie. I mean, we're North Carolina at heart, boys. We are Ohio. But we've both agreed if we were ever to move together. Together and continue the podcast that aren't like, everyone's got a favorite state that they would move to if they could. And coincidentally, Charlie and I both have chosen North Carolina.

Speaker C I love North Carolina.

Speaker B I think it's amazing. It's so convenient that we both chose the same.

Speaker C I do like Florida, too. I do like Florida.

Speaker B Yes. You're not going to Florida. We're not going for it. You wouldn't be able to. You wouldn't be able to vacation in Florida. You know, I mean, like, if you lived in Florida, going to Disney every year would just feel like you're going up the street. Like, if you're in South. If you're in North Carolina, then it's like it's still a trip.

Speaker C There are. But there's also still benefits. It's fine. Logistics of me going to Florida versus.

Speaker B Did you have a question, though?

Speaker C No, I didn't have a question.

Speaker B You were like, you're probably going to cover this in the episode. Whether it's in South Carolina.

Speaker C Where in South Carolina specifically.

Speaker B It's like if. If you look at south. If south. If you put your hand up.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B And you pretend that South Carolina is your hand, depending on, I guess, how you have it tilted. It's kind of like your middle stars and across. I don't know, your middle knuckle. It's like middle northern part of South Carolina. Sources for today's episode include City of Bishopville, sc dot com. That's Cryptids of Cryptids fandom. Discover South Carolina Swamp, Pay per View, Vice, mpd, Huffington Post, Monster Hunt fandom, Basement of the Bazaar, A Little Closer. Daily Mail. And I actually bought the book the Lizard man, the True Story of the Bishop Velmont.

Speaker C Oh, boy. Is South Carolina. Is South Carolina.

Speaker B You could ask another question. Is this really South Carolina?

Speaker C Are they like, hey, you should visit because we have this monster here.

Speaker B I mean, it's not as popular probably, as Mothman in West Virginia, but, yeah, people visit here because of this creature.

Speaker C Wow. Okay. I didn't know that.

Speaker B I mean, we haven't.

Speaker C Put me in my place, I guess.

Speaker B All right, so what is a Lizard man of skateboard Swamp Lizard man, also known as the Lizard man of Lee county or the Bishopville Monster. He's got many monikers for my fellow nerds.

Speaker C I do want to point this out. There are two. Like I said this in the quiz. There are two.

Speaker B Oh, yeah, I did quiz Charlie on this episode. It's over on Patreon, if you remember. Go check it out. If that's enough to convince you to join our Patreon. It is. There.

Speaker C There are two IPs that have prominent lizard men. Right. There's Spider Man, I think. Was it Amazing Spider man with Andrew Garfield. Andrew Garfield. Thank you, Andrew Garfield. And the second movie is about the Lizard man specifically. Right. I love. I always love that in, like, the. The video game. So, like, that's one of my favorite Lizard Men's. And then the other is Dungeons and Dragons, of course, has a race specifically called Lizard Men. And they're not the same as a Dragonborn, because Dragonborn are, like, tall, like six foot, seven foot, eight foot, huge monsters. Lizard Men are height about four or five.

Speaker B Well, we're not four or not four or five. We are five foot seven. Ish. Eight. I'm just saying they're close to our, like, two Daniel. They're like five feet tall for Dylan Gabriel. Yeah, but they're Dylan Gabriel.

Speaker C More like almost like. Like you would look like it's more like a lizard on two legs versus, like, the Dragonborn. They're giant monster men who have dragon heads. So those are D and D lizard men.

Speaker B Well, this one's not like those. Well, probably more like the Amazing Spider man in my mind.

Speaker C Okay.

Speaker B But you can be the judge of that.

Speaker C Did he just relocate to South Carolina?

Speaker B Yeah, he's like, I'm more of a Tobey Maguire fan.

Speaker C I'm Going to retire down here.

Speaker B So he's a cryptid. He's said to inhabit the swamplands surrounding Bishopville and Lee County, South Carolina. The legend gained notoriety in 1988, which is also the year my sister was born. Shout out, Kayla. And it became folklore. It became a thing where it recurring like people will see signs in the next decades and like, oh, maybe the lizard man is back. And 88 is not when it officially started. That's just when the most prominent story happened and it really kicked off because you know when something happens and it's popular, everyone's like, oh yeah, you know, I think I did that or I saw that thing.

Speaker C It's like also the moth. Big mothman sighting was not when he was first seen either.

Speaker B Yeah, it's always the second time. So what does the lizard man look like? It is this towering 7 or 8 foot tall bipedal creature, muscular build. Dude lifts in his free time.

Speaker C What's he lifting? Rocks?

Speaker B Trees. Barrels.

Speaker C Barrels.

Speaker B Big barrels. Let's talk about some of his distinctive features. Allegedly. This is all alleged. This is multiple people saying, I think I saw this or maybe I saw this green scaly skin with a wet appearance.

Speaker C Okay.

Speaker B Covered in snake like scales. Reptilian.

Speaker C Does he wear jorts?

Speaker B No.

Speaker C I feel like he should wear jorts. Like we're short.

Speaker B We're not in the alien world where they don't have to wear clothes.

Speaker C I just want him. I don't know, I feel like he's.

Speaker B It's the low country. He's letting it all hang out. He's naked. Dude. You think you've never questioned Bigfoot wearing jeans?

Speaker C No. I don't know. He's got hair to cover it.

Speaker B Glowing red or orange eyes pierce through the darkness like lasers. Three fingers on each hand with long black claws. Three toes on each foot leaving very distinct tracks that are allegedly 14 inches in length.

Speaker C That's big.

Speaker B Got them shack feet.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B A stride that's roughly. Now this is just like when they see UFOs and they're like. It's about 40 meters a stride. That's roughly 40 inches when walking. I guess if you find enough footprint footprints. Yeah. It sounds less ridiculous now that I'm saying it out loud. Could you imagine seeing him walk? I mean like those are 40 inch strides. I swear to God. They're 40 inch strides.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B Write it down, Jeremy.

Speaker C Definitely more along the lines of like I see that thing. The sky is about 60 yards.

Speaker B Yeah. And I guess if it crash landed three times, you'd be able to measure it. So That's.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B And webbed hands suggesting amphibious capabilities. But he's a swamp dude. So. He's a swamp boy.

Speaker C He's a swimmer.

Speaker B Just some big iguana. Chilling. Just chilling.

Speaker C God damn it. I'm trying to think of the line from water boy.

Speaker B Okay. H2O. Mama said it's a lizard man. Football devil. It's just.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B All right, so let's talk about some of the sightings. So we're gonna start. These are gonna be out of order, but these are gonna be the way that they were produced. So an encounter happens and then someone's like, oh, yeah, you know what? This happened to me. So this is the order it is revealed.

Speaker C The day has happened.

Speaker B No, this is chronological in terms of revelation, man. It's not chronological in terms of date. It's chronological in terms of revelation, dad.

Speaker C Nab it.

Speaker B You didn't always have reasoning. Why you would.

Speaker C I would argue. I said I never had reasoning. I just did what I.

Speaker B You don't have to argue with me on that one. All right, so July 14, 1988, we're gonna go with Tom and Mary Wayne. W A Y E. The E is silent.

Speaker C My brain just works different. That's why I did that.

Speaker B And you're still on that?

Speaker C I'm still thinking about it. So Way Mary Way.

Speaker B And Tom.

Speaker C And Tom.

Speaker B So the Way family call the police and let them know that their 1985 Ford Ltd had been mauled the previous night. Not the car. And sheriff put a new transmission. Sheriff said, no, it's just Ford. That's just a Ford. It happens. Just kidding. He didn't say that. So the car was parked under a metal carport and had extensive damage to the hood, the molding, and the side of the car. There were claw and teeth marks all over it, leading the family to believe that there was some animal that was responsible for it.

Speaker C He's like, damn it, Mary. You let rip her out again.

Speaker B He's.

Speaker C No, there's going to be a lot of this.

Speaker B It's a little like Lake Placid, where it's like somebody had this like, weird big lizard that just kept growing and growing and growing and they're. We're going to have to let him go.

Speaker C I hate doing this again, but I've never seen Le Placid.

Speaker B Okay. It's a big alligator.

Speaker C Oh, I got it.

Speaker B It's like. Well, they. She didn't take him inside, but she was. The lady was feeding the alligators. Cuz they imagine someone just has this big lizard and they're like, we got to let Button go. Go on, get button buttons.

Speaker C Just giant, giant man flying around.

Speaker B The neighbor keeps wondering where their chickens and cows went. We can't keep stealing this family stealing cows at night. Checking him twice, neighbor's like, did you see where my cows were? There's just like hooves.

Speaker C Just a hand.

Speaker B So this car got roughed up.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B So deputies arrive, they're like, we're gonna check out this car. Because they called and they said it's all broken and whatever. So they confirmed that it was true, that all the damage was as reported, along with the antenna being bent back when cars had antennas and wires were actually ripped out of the motor.

Speaker C Jesus Christ.

Speaker B Kind of crazy. Lizard man's like this for Chevy for life, baby.

Speaker C Wow. I'm actually more of a Volvo guy.

Speaker B They also found strange three toed footprints at the scene. So when sheriff Truesdale arrived to investigate, locals had gathered and this was the first time he had heard about it. But there were people talking about this thing called the lizard man. And this was. So this was the first time the sheriff had ever heard anything about the lizard Man. But at the same time, there was like a journalist riding with him who heard that. It was like, I don't know why the journalist was with the officer or the sheriff doing some kind of cop story, I guess. But at the same time the sheriff heard Lizard man, the writer journalist heard it as well. So they were like they were writing their keyboard. And then that started the whole lizard man theory in the newspapers.

Speaker C He's like, bishopville lizard boy man.

Speaker B So when that, when. So when the story of this lizard man got out, based on this car mauling is when the main person who experiences the lizard man came forward, which. So we got a teenager named Christopher Davis.

Speaker C Very trustworthy.

Speaker B Very trustworthy. And him and his father saw the newspaper reporting on the lizard man. And his father encouraged him to go to the sheriff and explain what he had seen and what he had encountered a couple weeks prior. Because up until this point, the father did not believe him.

Speaker C Oh, shit.

Speaker B Father's like, you're a lying sacrifice, son.

Speaker C What's his name?

Speaker B Christopher.

Speaker C Chris Prius Reyes.

Speaker B Topher. That's how tofu crazy. Yeah. He's like, it just. He heard his son's story.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B And I'm, I'm. I'm embellishing. I think he. You'll hear the story. And I think his father was like.

Speaker C Okay, and how much you have to drink with that, Topher?

Speaker B Yeah, I think it's. I think this validated to the father. That something strange is happening out there. And he's like, you got to get your story out there. Because before he was like, I'm just gonna hold it in. So this is the defining encounter. This is Christopher Davis's lizard man encounter. Took place on June 29, 1988 in the early morning hours. 17 year old Christopher Davis experience will become very iconic in the most dramatic encounter with the lizard man. Davis, who is working the night shift at the local McDonald's making them McDoubles and mcnuggies, was driving home in his 1976 Toyota Celica. Is that.

Speaker C I don't know.

Speaker B That's Toyota.

Speaker B I've never heard of. I've probably heard of a Toyota Selkie Celica.

Speaker C See the seal? Seal car. You take it off, becomes a beautiful woman.

Speaker B What?

Speaker C Why do they stop making that model? I wonder how much money.

Speaker B If you can't afford a car from McDonald's, you gotta get a seal. I'll take the water way, dad. Just ride in the swamps in a seal.

Speaker C Just, just gruntle after a shift on a seal.

Speaker B It's dark, it's very humid, There are no street lights. It's a very rural part of the road. Very rural area. He's driving in, no one else around. And as he's driving bordering the skateboard swamp in browntown near bishopville, his tire blew out. Terrible timing. Like you're on your way home from work. It's super late. It's rural, no cell phones. Oh, yeah. You can't ig live it and be like, guys, this is the worst.

Speaker C Yeah, you. So you said it.

Speaker B You didn't.

Speaker C It didn't hit me until just then. I was like, oh, that's really bad.

Speaker B Yeah, you have to do it yourself. Like you have to change your tire.

Speaker C I'd be in so much trouble.

Speaker B Do you have you. Do you have this stuff?

Speaker C I don't think I even have a spare.

Speaker B I think I just have a donut. No, it's got a pump. Yeah, keep pumping up.

Speaker C Pump the broken tire full of like whatever.

Speaker B The goop air.

Speaker C No, no, no. You pump it like full of foam.

Speaker B Okay.

Speaker C Yeah, I have triple A, I got cell phones.

Speaker B We're living in 2025 over here. So he's kind of like this sucks. He exhales. He goes around the trunk to get the jack and the donut tire. He's prepared. Kudos to him. But while he's getting everything out of the car, he's got this feeling that he can't shake. This feeling that something from the darkness is watching him. Something is out there. So as he stands up, he wipes his hand clean, he hears this sound, like a rhythmic thumping of feet on pavement, getting closer and closer and louder and louder with each passing second. And when he looks towards the swamp, he sees this eerie shadow emerge from the wetland, moving towards him. The shape is tall and upright, walking on two legs in a manner that seemed almost human, but just fundamentally wrong. Just like you can tell this is not a person, this is something else. And as the figure approached, Davis could make out more details. In the darkness. Approximately 25ft away from him, he sees his two very brilliant red eyes, glowing like lasers, positioned about 7ft off the ground. So this thing is Yao Minging it. Yao Ming with red eyes in the swamps. And his blood just runs cold. He throws his tools in the car, jumps back behind the steering wheel, hands trembling, and just punches the gas. He's like, I gotta get out of here. But the car doesn't move much. It, like, sputters. I don't know if it's like you hit the gas so hard that the wheel starts spinning or if there's like switch womp sludge out there and it's just like turning. It's like. I don't know. But this thing, it's. It's like horror movie. It's like it gives, you know? The lizard man cracks his knuckles. He's like meat and good. I'm so sick of cow. Like, I finally get to eat something besides the neighbor cow.

Speaker C McDonald's. A teenage boy.

Speaker B He smells like onions. So his car is barely moving. This thing is running at him full speed, and it catches up to him. It, like, lunges forward and leaps onto the top of his car. And so this teenager swerving back and forth across this empty rural road, trying to shake this creature on his car loose. And through the front windshield, Davis could see the creature's fingers. These three long, long, long fingers with black claws curled around the edge of the roof, which would just. It's giving me Jeepers Creepers vibe. Have you.

Speaker C No, I haven't seen Jeepers Creepers. I feel like we talked about this before. I've not seen it.

Speaker B Okay, okay. It's on the roof, too, but that's all good. So his car is going side to side. This creature's claws are scraping, and he's like, I'm just trying to eat you.

Speaker C Just hold still so you could die.

Speaker B And the scratches are going to the fender and the sides, and he's just like. He's holding on And Davis later describes what he could see of the creature during this moment. And from the neck down, he observed three long fingers with black nails, green rough skin that appeared wet and scaly, and just a face that was just rageful. Just rage.

Speaker C Angry.

Speaker B Anger. Hungry, probably.

Speaker C He's angry.

Speaker B And after what felt like an attorney, which is probably only minutes, the creature finally lost its grip, tumbled to the ground, sliding off the back of the car before disappearing behind him in the swamp.

Speaker C Decided that was too much.

Speaker B He's like, I order a door dash. That's fine. So when Davis finally gets home, he's shaken and understandably traumatized. It took hours for his parents to console him.

Speaker C Still wear the paper hat from McDonald's. Yeah.

Speaker B The side view mirror of his car had been badly damaged. There were deep scratches and gouges on the roof and the sides of the vehicle. However, fearing ridicule and disbelief, Davis and his family decided prior to all the other accounts happening, to just not report it to authorities. They just. They chose to keep quiet about the encounter, dismissing it as too bizarre to share publicly. Now, this may or may not matter. I'm. I'm throwing it in for context in case. In case there's racial undertones that I'm not acknowledging now, it being 2025 and this taking place in the 80s. But he was a black teen and it was a black family. And I don't know if in the 80s it was like, I don't want to bring this attention. I don't. I know it's not like the 60s or the 50s.

Speaker C No, I think.

Speaker B But it's just. Yeah. Like we're. Let's just not. Let's just not say anything.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B I was getting those vibes. So I at least want to acknowledge it for that reason.

Speaker C Yeah, Yeah, I definitely. I feel that too.

Speaker B So fast forward to the mauling happened with the Way's car. So Chris's dad. Christopher's dad brings him in and is like, tell him about the crazy guy on your way home from McDonald's with the Nuggies. And so. So he tells him everything that we just said. And the sheriff didn't think he was crazy. He's like, all right, can you draw? You know, what you saw?

Speaker C So because everyone in the 80s had.

Speaker B An incredible talent, they were very honest that Christopher was not a. He wasn't a great artist, really. They. They called it crude drawing.

Speaker C Damn.

Speaker B But it was good enough. I got the point across.

Speaker C That's what I'll be able to do.

Speaker B And Christopher was even like, give me a Polygraph test.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B Like, let's do it.

Speaker C Like, I mean, those are debate. Those are widely debunked.

Speaker B Well, this is in the 80s.

Speaker C Yeah. So they still use those that sworn.

Speaker B That's, that's the law. Truth. And so he's like, okay, I've never had anyone ask me for that before. So the Lee county polygraph test showed that Davis was being truthful. And those results and the whole story was publicly shared, lending to a lot of credibility to his account. But also this article.

Speaker C Oh yeah, the whole.

Speaker B Everything written about his story is out there. And everyone's like, I have a story too, of course.

Speaker C Oh, yeah, you open the floodgates and.

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Speaker A What if the truth about our reality has been hidden in plain sight? What if aliens, consciousness and ancient spiritual wisdom are all connected? I'm Rob and this is Unveiled, a podcast that dives headfirst into the biggest mysteries of our time. Each episode I sit down with thought leaders, insiders, experiencers and visionaries to explore the unknown. From the UAP phenomenon and government cover ups to alien abductions, remote viewing and the metaphysics of consciousness. This is not your average UFO podcast. Unveiled is about peeling back the layers of reality, of belief, of ourselves. So if you're ready to challenge the mainstream narrative, expand your mind and discover what lies beyond the veil, hit follow and join me on this journey into the unknown.

Speaker B So as Davis's story got out, more stories started to come in.

Speaker C Sally, Sally's sweetheart, Grandma goes, well, I saw a big lizard. He was eating my dog. And then there's like another person. Sounds like, well, I was out drinking with Tobob. And we saw a big lizard too.

Speaker B He was trying to get us 15% off our car insurance. That mother.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B News outlets from all around started coming into Bishopville.

Speaker C Who came? Cnn.

Speaker B I mean, Good Morning America did an event.

Speaker C Oh, no way.

Speaker B In the swamp.

Speaker C In the swamp?

Speaker B Yeah.

Speaker C Get in the water. Well, I'm out here in the swamp. Back to you. That's crazy.

Speaker B This fucking suck, Jeff. And here's Jethro with the weather. Oh yeah, no, there was major publications, Washington Post write headlines. Wow, like lizard man claims casualty. Sunday Times. Yeah, I mean it was, it was.

Speaker C Wow, that's crazy.

Speaker B Pretty popular. So the next encounter comes from George Holloman Jr. And this is another one that took place before Christopher's. This is somebody coming after the fact saying something happened before the main encounter. He claims that he had an encounter potentially with the lizard man in 1987. So a year prior, 10 months, I think nine or 10 months. But the year prior. And it was Christopher's story. He acknowledges that Christopher's story led him to come forward. Yeah, so he was a 31 year old construction worker who had a creepy run in with something near the scape or bridge. On that evening, George was riding his bicycle on the back roads of town. And around midnight he Found himself on the south side of this bridge. So he did what everyone did in the 80s. He got off the bike and smoked a cigarette.

Speaker C Sure.

Speaker B Just looking off the swamp, looking at the bridge, smoking a cigarette.

Speaker C Ah, the health benefits of this cigarette.

Speaker B One day I could afford a selkie, but until then, I'm riding my bicycle. And so as he's smoking, he's looking around, he's looking at the swamp. Something catches his eye. And he thought initially. Do you remember what he initially thought it was?

Speaker C Oh, yeah, Yeah, I do, actually. Do you want me to say it?

Speaker B Yeah.

Speaker C He thought initially what he saw was actually the charred remains of a lightning struck tree.

Speaker B A dead tree. Right. A tree that maybe had been struck by lightning. Maybe it wasn't a cigarette he was smoking. I don't. I don't know.

Speaker C Well, those jazz cigarettes.

Speaker B But then this dead tree stood up and he's like. That's probably what he said. He's like, wait a minute.

Speaker C Oh, I gotta go.

Speaker B I've seen a lot of trees here before. Yeah. You realize this is something else. This is something that took the shape of a man, but also, like, doesn't quite look like a man. It was 7, 8ft tall. It was dark in color, but it's also nighttime.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B All of George's hair stood up on his neck. And he said he could feel his muscles tightening.

Speaker C He's like, I played D&D, third edition. I know what this could be.

Speaker B I don't get DND vibes from George. Keep it a buck. But then a car drove by from the bridge, I assume, and it illuminated the area. And in that moment, he noticed as it lit up the creature's eyes, that they were huge and red.

Speaker C Oh.

Speaker B And the car coaxed the. The creature to go back to the swamp. It's like I've been seeing yeah. Cow again tonight. Like, cigarettes make you taste yucky.

Speaker C Yeah, that's what he said. Doesn't make you look cool at all.

Speaker B So then George jumped on his bike and said, I'm getting out of here.

Speaker C I'm a Schwinn out of here.

Speaker B And he didn't know who to tell about this experience. Man, listen. That's what the list. There's no shame. There's no shame in telling people about. Like, everyone needs a friend that you can tell the story to.

Speaker C I'd say there's no shame now, but.

Speaker B Back then, I think there was even telling a friend.

Speaker C I think people in the past were a lot more scared of judgment. With this kind of. With this kind of thing.

Speaker B I Guess, because it's all real. Like, you can say the wildest shit now and you can judge on social media, but social media is fake, where it's like everything's real.

Speaker C Then, yeah, you actually have to go have a coffee with someone and then tell them you saw a monster.

Speaker B And they're like, okay, it's not the monster sighting. He didn't want to tell people he was riding his bike at midnight in the backwoods, smoking a cigarette. Like, you got cable there, George?

Speaker C No, no, no, I don't.

Speaker B All right, so let's move on to an encounter that happened after Christopher's. Very shortly after Christopher's is July 24, 1988. More calls come in the police station around 2am Two teens rushed into the Lee County Sheriff's office saying, we saw the lizard man. We done seen the lizard man.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B And the teens, Rodney Nolf and Shane Stroke, said they were driving with their girlfriends. I'm sure they were along Highway 15 when something rushed in front of them. It appeared large and muscular, walking bipedal, only visible for a few seconds before disappearing into the woods, but not human. And reminded them of things they'd been hearing about the lizard. Yeah.

Speaker C They're like, yeah, he was wearing a black tank top and jorts and was just slamming creatine. It was crazy.

Speaker B So, of course, the officers had no idea if what they saw was connected to the lizard man sightings. But they felt that the boys were telling the truth. They felt they were being sincere. One of the officers said that they've spoken to enough people to know when somebody was truly terrified so he could pick up that these boys were sincerely scared.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B And they were willing to take that word. So, like, okay, cool, we'll go. We'll go to wherever you heard this. Or we'll go to where you saw this guy cross in front of you and we'll see. But before they even left, they got another call where somebody claimed to hear a very strange howling sound right in the same area that the boys claimed that they saw the creature.

Speaker C What is this howl? It sounded like.

Speaker B I don't. I don't have a.

Speaker C You don't have a.

Speaker B So the police officers went to investigate. And in the area where the teens had mentioned seeing this creature, they found 40 gallon drums that had been crushed along with some other garbage. I know it's the creatine. The officers got out, use their flashlights to inspect the area. And they couldn't identify how these barrels were crushed. And they also discovered broken tree limbs. So they knew that something Big was walking around here and so they decided to go ahead to see if they could maybe catch this thing or see if there were other clues. So they go ahead a little bit and they realize there's no signs of anything. It's dark out, there's nothing here. So they decided to pull a U turn. And here's the weird part though. When they get back to where the crushed barrels were, they noticed something new. Footprints. Footprints that were not there five minutes earlier when they were investigating are now there.

Speaker C They're being stalked by the lizard man. Like, what do you think they're going to do? Arrest it and put it in the back of the truck?

Speaker B Shoot it?

Speaker C Yeah, they're going to put the thing down.

Speaker B Yeah. They're going to shoot that.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B In two seconds.

Speaker C Yeah. 80s 80s. South Carolina Police. That thing so quick.

Speaker B Put its head in the station.

Speaker C Yeah, yeah. As like a mountain.

Speaker B We put it in your nearest winking lizard. I love it so much lizard lifts.

Speaker C I think that's, that's regional. That's only here.

Speaker B Good. I've never eaten at winking lizard and not had an upset stomach. And I've tried like seven menu things.

Speaker C I love.

Speaker B Okay, menu items, menu things.

Speaker C The thing about winky lizard is that every location has a live iguana. Not just like loose, there's like a pen. But they're very cool. I always like, I feel like they.

Speaker B Wipe the food on it before they serve it. I got a salad there and then I got an upset stomach.

Speaker C No man, sounds like a you thing.

Speaker B We use yesterday's oil for today's grease. I don't know. I don't know. I'm sure it's fine. It probably isn't me thing.

Speaker C I do like them a lot Anyway.

Speaker B So they go back and there's these footprints that were not there prior and they are the way they described it as large oval palm, a prominent heel and three claw like toe marks. 14 in. In length. So big.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B Three.

Speaker C I mean that's giant. You're like Shaquille O' Neal size. You were. You said before.

Speaker B Yeah, I. It's. Imagine how jarring that had to be in that moment though. Like. And I try, I try and do this. I feel like we're being a little silly today, but like putting yourself in that situation, like right here, right now with these lights on us and we're, you know, having a good time, like it's like, whoa, whoa. They found footprints. But if you imagine people are saying, I saw this entity, this seven foot tall creature that's mauling. Cars. And this kid said it tried to jump on his car and harm him. And. And yes, you're a police officer and you have a gun or whatever, but, like, you're driving, you see these crushed barrels. You come back, and it just is, like, vulnerability of, like, I was just here, and now something else was here with these footprints. Like. And it's like in a monster movie where you see bits of the monster, but you wait for the end of the movie, for the reveal. It's like seeing just the footprint makes it feel real, but it leaves it up to your imagination to fill out what this thing actually is and looks like.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B And that's scary.

Speaker C Yeah, it would be very scary if I was those cops. I'd go back to back so quick, like, I. Could you imagine, like, you get my back, brother. I got your back, brother.

Speaker B And you have to, like, go back to back to the car, back to.

Speaker C Back, because you're going to kill.

Speaker B You didn't see nothing. I didn't see nothing. You calling off tomorrow? I'm calling off.

Speaker C I'm not going in.

Speaker B So they decide to make castings of these footprints. It rained, like, shortly after this. It rained. So it's actually really convenient and lucky. But they were able to get five of the footprints and make castings out of them. And they initially planned to take these castings and give them to the FBI, but they decided that instead they were going to consult biologists.

Speaker C Sure.

Speaker B Which I guarantee is not what would happen today.

Speaker C No, I don't think so.

Speaker B No, I won't say it. Do you know who Nancy Mace is? And Nancy Mace would say, this is.

Speaker C Never mind.

Speaker B We're not gonna say what she would say. They would not give them to scientists. They would not give them to scientists. I'll say Nancy Mace is also the person that led the UAP drones thing, but she's like, South Carolina's rapping cheese.

Speaker C Oh, okay.

Speaker B Crazy. But anyway, someone right now is. Keep politics out of this goddamn episode. All right, fine. I'll stick to the lizard man. So they give him to the biologists, and according to the South Carolina Marine Resources Department spokesperson, Johnny Evans. Great name, actually. I like that name.

Speaker C Sure.

Speaker B The tracks neither match nor could be mistaken for the footprints of any recorded animal. So they didn't match any animal.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B And they couldn't be mistaken for any animal.

Speaker C That's pretty crazy.

Speaker B He's like, they're not even close, you know? It's like. He's like, oh, that's the official dino.

Speaker C I don't know. I Don't know.

Speaker B I still get paid for this. All right. Yeah. He dismissed the possibility that the prince could have been made from any sort of mutated creature, too. Well, stating that they were unclassifiable.

Speaker C Then where are they from, Johnny?

Speaker B Like, that's not my job. You should have brought him to the FBI, bro. Like, I don't know. So things kept rolling. The publicity of this entity, along with Sheriff Truesdale's public support for these encounters. More and more sightings started coming in. They're not all going to be as long as the ones we just did, but I'm going to go through a couple more sightings that we got here. So George Pliers, livestock attacks. It's the cat. That's the neighbor in the cast.

Speaker C He went live.

Speaker B No livestock attacks.

Speaker C That's how messed up my brain is right now about, like, life and stuff.

Speaker B George Plier reported that the lizard man harassed and killed several of his hogs and goats, leaving the animals mutilated and in a manner that suggested something far more aggressive than just local South Carolina predators.

Speaker C I love that he harassed them first. Like he. He bullied them first. He's like, you're ugly, big old fat.

Speaker B Pig, then wampus cat. That's North Carolina, right?

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B Yeah. Okay, here's a quote from Plier. Quote. Its face was shaped like a human's. Its eyes were red around the pupils, and its arms hung like an ape. It broke and ran, parting the brush both ways. The features were more like a human than any animal I've ever seen. But the legs were long and skinny with a little body. It had a body maybe similar to a lizard, except for the head. Unquote.

Speaker C Very strange.

Speaker B And then we got Frank Mitchell's airstrip encounter. Apparently, allegedly, Mitchell, a pilot, was preparing to take off from his grassy Runway when a 8 to 9 foot tall creature walked in front of his small plane. It was almost like Jurassic Park 3 with the. The spin of. You seen.

Speaker C Yes, yes, work three.

Speaker B You know what I'm talking about. Trying to take off in the spinosaurus. It gets his legs spin. Source is like, oh, yes, I'm going to eat the cell phone. And you're going to hear it from my stomach because I got no stomach acid.

Speaker C No, he didn't.

Speaker B That's. No. Listen, the moral of the story there is before iPhones, flip phones. Indestructible. Indestructible. Yeah, that. The whole movie was just a Nokia promo. An ad like our phone can get eaten, digested, and pooped out by a dinosaur.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B And that will still ringing. No drop call. Great service.

Speaker C Very good service also. Just like you could use as a weapon. Just so.

Speaker B Yeah. So this. He. He couldn't. He couldn't fly. He had to stop. I don't know if it's because he was freaked out or just because it like affected. Could have not a pilot, but I mean then just let him. Let him go and then.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B You know, it's like when you geese are crossing the road.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B You just can't go.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B I'm so terrified that one day there's just going to be one asshole who just had such a bad day and is such a bad person that like when everyone's waiting for the geese to go, he's just like.

Speaker C That would be evil. That's evil.

Speaker B I hope no one out there has ever experienced.

Speaker C My grandma might do that. My grandma would possibly.

Speaker B She drives though.

Speaker C Thank God.

Speaker B No, but she possessed you to do that?

Speaker C Hated. She hates geese. I don't. She says it because they always messed up the golf course so she never liked them.

Speaker B Grandma golfed.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B Can we golf with your Grandma?

Speaker C No. She's 95.

Speaker B All right, next sighting. Dixie Rawson. That's a South Carolina name.

Speaker C Oh, Dixie.

Speaker B Because of Dixie Rossin.

Speaker C Yeah, it is.

Speaker B Rossin was awakened by terrible noises during the night and discovered her car completely covered in scratches and deep puncture holes that appear to be made by enormous claws. Very similar to the initial waist sighting.

Speaker C Topher.

Speaker B And the claws very similar to Davis's story and description of what the claws look like.

Speaker C Yeah. Yeah. Big old.

Speaker B I don't know why this. I wonder if it's like sound or like. Well, I guess it's not moving. What do you think it is about cars that makes heat like from an engine running?

Speaker C I imagine like an ambush predator. Like you see this thing moving, you want like a cat almost.

Speaker B But it's not moving. It's parked like. I'm wondering if it's the heat from the engine. Like, what if there's some other lizard where you can detect like can't like.

Speaker C Snakes see heat like. And see like thermo.

Speaker B I don't know.

Speaker C Thermo.

Speaker B I think lizard man just walking around. Thermal goggles.

Speaker C I mean that's a good.

Speaker B He thinks they're all cows Or a.

Speaker C Big ass car just kind of like sitting there going like it's enough to distract.

Speaker B I don't think they're. They're rev. I think they're just awful. I think they're parked off cars. Does your car keep going when you turn it off?

Speaker C I mean, Maybe.

Speaker B Your car sounds like a spaceship.

Speaker C Yeah, I know it does.

Speaker B Why?

Speaker B Why is your car. So I just signed the thing.

Speaker C I just bought it.

Speaker B What if I'm thinking that they can feel the heat or they can sense the heat, and they're just like, when do I get to the meat? Like, where is the beef? They all. They think they're just big cows.

Speaker C That's a good theory. I think it's a good theory.

Speaker B Why does no one else have a theory? All right, so what happens? What happens? You get a couple of people with valid stories, people are starting to buy in. You even got the cops on your side. That's how you know every. Everyone's on the same. Everyone's on the same team.

Speaker C Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker B You know, it's us and the cars versus the lizard man, our teenagers, the cops, all together. But then you got one person that just ruins it. One. It's like the person that does something during an event or a party, and then the next time, there's a new rule where it's like, you can't do that.

Speaker C Yeah. It's like a God. Like, there's so many movies. It's just like, oh, that guy came in here and just messed the whole thing up.

Speaker B Well, I'm trying to think. Like, it's like, anytime you ever see a sign somewhere.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B Where it's like, don't do this. And you know that they only had that because someone did it.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B Like, don't dunk your head in the hot tub and not come up for air. Like, that's a rule. And you're like, well, that means someone.

Speaker C Someone had done that.

Speaker B So now let's enter Kenneth or Hoax. So in August.

Speaker C Wait, his last name is Hoax?

Speaker B No, he's Hoax Kenneth, or. So he's like, it's on point. It's what I do.

Speaker C What a last name.

Speaker B So, Kenneth, on August 5, 1988, he was an airman stationed at Shaw Air Force Base, and he filed a police report claiming that he encountered the lizard man on Route 15, Highway 15, and shot it and wounded it as evidence. Or was like, here are these scales in some blood. Don't look too much into them. Just. We're all. We're all in agreement, right? You trust me, and I trust you. Like, I don't got to do the polygraph, Right. You just put my name up here where I sign. So it got a lot of excitement. You hit news headlines. Everyone was like, oh, my God.

Speaker C Evidence about that guy Kenneth Hoax.

Speaker B However, it quickly unraveled. Just A couple. Two days later. A couple of days later, apparently, he was arraigned for unlawfully carrying a pistol and the misdemeanor offense of filing a false police report. And he recanted his entire account. The scales turned out to be fish scales. And he admitted that he fabricated the entire thing. And in his statement, he was like, I did it just to keep the legend of the lizard man alive.

Speaker C Didn't need your help.

Speaker B He didn't need your help, Kenneth.

Speaker C Wow. What an ass. It's like. Okay, it's like one of those people who are, like, desperate. Desperate to prove the Bigfoot is real. Right. And they fake evidence just so you people believe that he might be real. Mm. It's. It's the same kind of energy.

Speaker B They go buy the best suit they can get from Spirit Halloween.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B They're like, all right.

Speaker C I can't say.

Speaker B He's like, all right, I'm gonna get my Bigfoot suit, and let's find Tommy with Parkinson's disease. And he'll be there. He'll be the one videoing. He'll be the video.

Speaker C Michael J. Fox. He's a cameraman.

Speaker B He's like, all right, I got it. And give the iPhone two. Oh, so that's a bummer. But, yeah, you're exactly right. It's. I don't want to say it was good intentions. It wasn't. It wasn't mean. It wasn't mean spirited. Yeah, he's trying. He's. She's trying to make it real because it's a. It's a unique thing. You probably. There's probably, like, kind of, like pride around it. Like, this is our thing for sure, but it's still just like, even bad things can come from good intention.

Speaker C I'd say that's. That's the. That's the. The whole. What's the word? Not analogy. Idiom. Right. Good intentions pave the road to hell.

Speaker B Yeah.

Speaker C Have you never heard that before?

Speaker B I have heard that.

Speaker C So my dad would say that that's.

Speaker B A little intense for this.

Speaker C Well. Well, it paves the road to being.

Speaker B In trouble with the law.

Speaker C Hell is figurative at this point.

Speaker B Every point.

Speaker C That's funny.

Speaker B Thank you. So when it comes to evidence we already talked about, but just to kind of confirm, at this point, during the height of this lizard mania in summer of 1988, the most compelling evidence was the. The footprints. So as we talk about other theories, just keep in mind the most compelling evidence that we have is the footprint castings and people who are knowledgeable of footprints and biology and creatures just saying we can't classify it.

Speaker C Yeah. Like the physical evidence is the most physical.

Speaker B Yeah. I mean, Davis's experience is obviously, but intense.

Speaker C But it's analytical, though. Or not.

Speaker B It's anecdotal.

Speaker C Anecdotal.

Speaker B Thank you. Yeah. Yes. There's no. Nothing tangible from it.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B So that's kind of it. Like, after 88, the intense sightings of this creature died off, hibernated. He had too much beef and he just went, too much of that red meat lizard, man.

Speaker C Where's the beef?

Speaker B Too much red meat. And mufflers. It's a dangerous, bad diet.

Speaker C Oh, before we get into those, I feel like this is a little off the point. You said mufflers made me think of this. I feel like I told you this story when I was, like, in high school. My car was shitty. It was on the verge of being shitty. And, like, the muffler was your blue car. Yeah, yeah. Well, not that car. The Tracker.

Speaker B That was a blue car.

Speaker C Yeah, there's two.

Speaker B But what was your other blue car?

Speaker C That Cavalier that broke down.

Speaker B Oh, no, I meant the. Yeah, yeah. We're on the top of the same one.

Speaker C So the muffler would pop off. Right. And I was driving it. One time I went to go get food with my friends and I went in the back of the car, I said, oh, the muffler. The muffler's off again. And I didn't realize the mufflers got hot. So what I did was I, like I normally did, would just grab the back of the muffler and pick it up and put it back on. Oh, my God. I got second degree burns on my hands, on my hand. It was awful.

Speaker B She took your food, put on it, just.

Speaker C It was so bad. I had to call off work. It was bad, bad.

Speaker B I feel like everyone, in your defense, I feel like everyone has that really dumb moment of just grabbing something that they shouldn't have taught.

Speaker C I just didn't know. I just, like. It was just pure ignorance. I just did not know.

Speaker B Okay. There's been times where I've, like, accidentally grabbed, like, a pan.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B And the worst part is it takes me, like, a second to register what's wrong. Yeah, you, like, grab and you're like, wow, why does this suck? Oh, it's hot. And then you start getting, like, that light spot on your thumb, and it's just like a welt. And you're like, well, this is going to suck for the next four days.

Speaker C Yeah, no, I fully put my hand on it, picked it up, put it over and I was like, oh, no, it was so bad. Like my whole hand. You know that light blister you're talking about on your thumb? It's my whole palm.

Speaker B That had to be a rough week.

Speaker C It was a bad couple days. Yeah.

Speaker B Yeah. So I got two news articles that are more recent ish. About the lizard man. So the first one is not much to it, but this. So this is 2011 Huffington Post. A South Carolina couple, Leon and Ada, which I don't know if I believe this because those are the. Those are. That's Resident Evil. Four characters.

Speaker C You think they made up aliases?

Speaker B It's Leon and Ada. If you know, you know, I'm sure most of you know if you're a gamer.

Speaker B They discovered their car covered in what appear to be teeth marks that went completely through the fender. And so they were like, lizard man.

Speaker C Yeah, that's crazy. Is that the whole thing?

Speaker B Yeah. Yeah. And I guess Truesdale was. I don't know if he was still the sheriff then or if he was just in the area. Yeah, but they talked to him about it and he confirmed that it kind of was similar to probably just in the area.

Speaker C But.

Speaker B Yeah, but he kind of confirmed. He said, oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker C Sounds like the lizard just like unhinges its jaw and just goes like 90 degrees and goes.

Speaker B Well, the creepy thing is that people are like, it's got a humanish face. That means imagine a human unhinging their jaw. Yeah, that's all saying terrifying.

Speaker C It's like Beetlejuice. It just goes like back.

Speaker B Yeah. Or the. You've seen the mummy? Yes, the mummies from the mummy.

Speaker C Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker B So next one is 2015 from Daily Mail. So, you know, that's super serious. So this is Sarah Barra, which I love the name, said she took a picture outside her church showing a super muscular upright humanoid with three clawed toes on each foot and clawed fingers, red eyes, a long kangaroo like tail and a snub nose face. And she said, my hand to God, I am not making this up.

Speaker C Okay, where's the picture?

Speaker B You know, it might be.

Speaker C I Google it. What happened?

Speaker B Search Sara Barrel lizard Man. That's the Sara Barrel lizard man.

Speaker C That looks fake. Fake as hell. That looks like an actual.

Speaker B I think, I think I saw it from the article. I mean, yeah, yeah, he's like. He sucked. He's like getting my steps in this little. It'll be on Instagram or whatever.

Speaker C You'll see it go. Panthers.

Speaker B You think they're Panthers fans?

Speaker C South Carolina.

Speaker B Yeah, I Could see some of them being Falcons fans. I guess it depends.

Speaker C There's some north, though. The norther. Right. More north.

Speaker B I don't know where Georgia is compared to South. South Carolina and Georgia are pretty close.

Speaker C Just underneath it. Yeah.

Speaker B Yeah. You have. You have. Maybe you have an option. You can either be a Carol Panthers fan because it's North Carolina.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B Or you could be a Falcons fan.

Speaker C Probably college football fans.

Speaker B Yeah, they're.

Speaker C Yeah. I don't know any college football teams.

Speaker B There is Clemson.

Speaker C I could not tell you.

Speaker B Clemson. They're Clemson fans.

Speaker C Clemson fans. Go Clems.

Speaker B They produced Deshaun Watson. Oh, Ew. So anyway, you saw the picture, now you can comment on it. I appreciate that. She's like, I swear to God, I'm not making this up. I mean, she probably saw it. I don't know if it's real, but.

Speaker C Like she took like a Godzilla action figure and posed it in the woods and just a picture of it.

Speaker B It Halloween. The day after her sighting, though, another resident had a 24 second video showing a tall figure with a long tail darting into the trees. Could be the same person, the same suit. Yeah, this is. This is Kenneth. Or being like, I'm getting them back.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B I'm keeping it alive.

Speaker C Kenneth. Or AKA Kenneth Hoax, coming back.

Speaker B Kenneth Hoax, the Lizard Man. Lizard bro. So a couple other sightings. These are more recent ones. A little silly, but it's something, you know, it's something that was in the news.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B So now let's talk about some of the theories about lizard man. All right, so we're going to talk about. This is no fun. This is. No, I don't enjoy this part, but I'm going to talk about it. This is the critical analysis of Christopher Davies account.

Speaker C Yeah. Okay.

Speaker B Skeptical Investigator, which is the lamest title. And that's coming from me.

Speaker C It's pretty lame.

Speaker B Lame. Ben Radford, Debbie Downer.

Speaker C Ben Radford is a professional Debbie Downer.

Speaker B He said. Well, actually he conducted a thorough analysis of Davis's story and found numerous inconsistencies and implausibilities.

Speaker C Okay, I just want to pants this.

Speaker B Guy while the shit. While the sheriff stated that Davis's story never wavered, Radford documented that over weeks and months of repeated tellings, there were some small details that changed in his stories. The distance between Davis and the creature when he first saw it apparently varied. Based on the retellings, whether or not the creature actually attacked the car seemed to change in some retellings. And Davis's initial newspaper quote described escaping with no more than a scratch on his fender. Which contradicted the more dramatic account, which is the one we told a little bit earlier. So Radford questioned the plausibility of Davis being able to see the fine details of the creature at night. Because he's saying, it's dark out, he's in a rural area. Like, how did this kid actually see. It's a stupid.

Speaker C Good point.

Speaker B Yeah. And he said, based on that night, it's not like there wasn't a full moon or anything.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B He also noticed timing inconsistencies. Says if Davis saw the creature in shadows while closing his trunk, he saw to get back in the car and accelerate. Yet somehow the creature supposedly caught up to the car when Davis was going, like, 35, 40 miles per hour. So it's like, how do you do that? I hate this guy.

Speaker C I hate him, too.

Speaker B And he also said the lack of photographs documenting the car damage is particularly curious. I bet he did say curious.

Speaker C He probably did. What a jerk.

Speaker B So that's that.

Speaker C I guess my biggest question is, like, did they have to fix the whole car? Do they say they had to fix the whole car? We don't know.

Speaker B We don't know. We don't know.

Speaker C Oh, that makes me mad.

Speaker B Investigator Alicia Lutz proposed an alternative explanation that what Davis encountered that night was actually a local butter bean farmer named Lucius Elmore, who may or may not be a wizard. According to this theory from Alicia, Elmore was guarding his shed that night after experiencing recent thefts. And he was racist. You know, she didn't say. She didn't say that. Elmore claimed he heard a car tire blowout, which is true. And thinking it was the thieves returning and just having a little bit of bad luck, walked out to the road to confront them. And when Davis saw Elmore approaching in the darkness, he screamed and drove away in terror. Just being freaked out, seeing something walking towards him.

Speaker C You want my bean shed?

Speaker B And the explanation would account for someone approaching Davis in the dark near the swamp. And obviously, it doesn't have anything to do with any lizard man. But that's the extent of what Davis actually saw walking towards him. Another theory is just mass hysteria and copycat reports. Some skeptics suggest that the phenomenon represents a case of mass hysteria. So you have the initial report, which may or may not be true. I don't know.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B And then once this dramatic story became public, and I think this is important, Received validation from the sheriff. I feel like that's a key detail. That definitely helps because there wasn't shame yeah, it wasn't dismissed. You had the local authority be like, I believe this kid. Which shout out Sheriff Truesdale. He was the first person interviewed in the book that I read, by the way. The Lizard man book. The True Story, whatever. Really good book got on Kindle. But he's interviewed by the author. And it's cool to get his insight into this. But he seemed like a good dude. He seemed like he was trustworthy, trusts his citizens. His country folk polygraph test, as you noted, doesn't hold a ton of weight.

Speaker C It's not missable anymore. Sort of. I was thinking of earlier.

Speaker B Yeah. And some of the lizard man encounters could just been fabricated because people like to be involved. They want to be part of something. You know what I mean? I'm sure some of you guys can currently think of things happening in the world that people are jumping in on to be a part of something possibly. So that is. It's. That it's just mass hysteria. It's just one kind of encounter and everyone's just jumping in on it. Because, like I said, it was like the first quote. First encounter was in 88. Now people are like, oh, last year. Oh, two years ago. Oh, but then you have weird things, like the things with the teens.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B Unless it's all a prank and somebody's in like a suit or they're like.

Speaker C Remember that fun thing? And let's bring that back up.

Speaker B The footprints still don't make sense, though. Like, really. Unless it's. Unless someone's walking around that suit that we saw. You know, I don't know where the footprints came from. One theory is it's alternative wildlife. So it a bear. It's just a bear. People saw the footprints. People saw this big thing.

Speaker C Yeah. Because definitely bears look scaly. Sure.

Speaker B It's bear. Mixed with misrepresentation, I guess, which is the next thing. Misidentification, but keeping it in the paranormal realm. Misidentification. They actually saw Bigfoot. Not everyone claims scale. Some people just had a dark and dark tall entity with red eyes.

Speaker C I was actually wondering about that. I was wondering if.

Speaker B Not everyone says scales. Now. Chris Davis said. Christopher Davis said scales.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B And one other guy said scales.

Speaker C Kevin.

Speaker B I don't remember. You mean Kenneth.

Speaker C Yeah, Kenneth.

Speaker B But some. Some people just saw like a tall entity. And so could it have been. And they. Somebody said, like, ape like arms, like.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B Could it have been Bigfoot? The whole marks in the.

Speaker C In the.

Speaker B He's got claws. Big old hands.

Speaker C And not lizard claws, though.

Speaker B He hates Ford. He hates a foreign.

Speaker C He's like, I'm a. I'm a Dodge man.

Speaker B And the final theory is just hoax, so not misidentification. Yeah. Not mass hysteria. Intentional hoax. Now, obviously, when you got people like Kenneth or. And his hoax, it's demonstrating that some people are willing to fabricate Lizard man encounters and evidence for notoriety, attention, publicity. Not really monetary value. Unless, I guess, you're paid to be in a documentary or something. I guess.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B But just, you know, it was. It was. It had such a positive response from the town and local media, national media, that you could see why people might try and fabricate to get their own name out there and. And get involved in this.

Speaker C Attached to this as well.

Speaker B Yeah. And just this is more of an intentional thing than the mass hysteria. It's not like leaning into it. It's like, you know, plotting, like.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B So that is the episode on the Lizard man, the scape or Swamp Lizard Man. Let's talk about it in the discussion. All right, Charlie, what are your thoughts on the Lizard Man? Are there. Let me ask you this. Are there any. I'll get three questions, which is really bad. You're not supposed to do this in, like, conversational, like, where you're supposed to do one at a time, but.

Speaker C Yep.

Speaker B You. What are your thoughts on Lizard Man? Is there an encounter that really sticks out to you, and is there a theory that really sticks out to you?

Speaker C Let me answer your second question first. So the encounters that really stick out to me is the one where the cops go out and then they. They see the barrels. Right.

Speaker B The teenagers.

Speaker C Well, the teenagers see it and then the cops go out.

Speaker B But it's that and that. Yes, yes. They say they saw it walk in front of their car.

Speaker C Yes, they.

Speaker B And they also get a call. Someone says there's something.

Speaker C Someone heard it.

Speaker B I mean, and they're like, we gotta go check it out. And then. Yes, and then. I think that's one of my favorite moments. Like, obviously, Christopher's story is the craziest.

Speaker C Yes.

Speaker B That is the heart, the most attacking kind of thing. That's the entree. But I always like the small details, so I agree with you 100%. The cops pulling a U turn, coming back and seeing footprints that weren't there.

Speaker C That's wild. That's wild because, like, it makes you feel like the Lizard man was stalking them the whole time.

Speaker B Very creepy. Or you just. Or even if he wasn't stalking them, he was still in the area when they were outside their car with their flashlights, looking. He was there.

Speaker C Like, he could have Been game over for them.

Speaker B Yeah.

Speaker C But. And then thoughts on the Lizard man himself. Right.

Speaker B And then your favorite theory.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B Yeah.

Speaker C Well, okay. So I think the Lizard Man. It's an interesting cryptid. I've never heard of it before. It's not well known outside of that area, I think. Right.

Speaker B No, I mean, people travel to see it.

Speaker C Right.

Speaker B It's just not us.

Speaker C Yeah. It doesn't. I mean, doesn't exist anywhere except for this area. A lot of specific details about it. Mostly big, hulking creature. The things that stick out to me are the claws. The claws and the large feet with the claws. So I think that's very interesting. I do think, unfortunately, Debbie Downer, what's his face Made a lot of good points.

Speaker B Radkin's or whatever.

Speaker C Yeah. Yeah. Just want to bully him.

Speaker B No, it's fair, though. It's not. There's nothing wrong with questioning. We do that. We try to do that for your career in title, to be professional skeptical investigator.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B Just like you can just.

Speaker C That's the noise he makes whenever he hears a cryptid.

Speaker B The word it's. Did you ever play La Noire?

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B It's just like. It's always doubt. Just like. That's for that friend where you're just telling him something. Really, though.

Speaker C Yeah. Did you see that?

Speaker B You're like. That's. That's why he's this job and he has all this free time because no one invites him anywhere.

Speaker C Hang out with him.

Speaker B He's like the Squawk. He's not like the Squawk. He's a downer. Like the Squawk.

Speaker C Yeah. He's not.

Speaker B He doesn't. He doesn't believe in.

Speaker C He enjoys this, though. That's the thing. He enjoys it.

Speaker B I like when people are excited and I can ruin it.

Speaker C Exactly. He's an energy vampire.

Speaker B I love the Cleveland Brown.

Speaker C I just like going to their games and soaking it in the theory that I like the best. There's a couple theories. I don't like that. It's a bit. The idea that it's a Bigfoot.

Speaker B That's because you don't like Bigfoot.

Speaker C I just think it's such a big letdown. And also, Bigfoot's not scaly. It's a whole other thing. Imagine a fight between a lizard man and a Bigfoot.

Speaker B Just like.

Speaker C It'S essentially like a mini Godzilla versus King Kong.

Speaker B That'd be cool.

Speaker C Yeah. Cool. Shit.

Speaker B There's mass hysteria. There was misidentification. There was hoax.

Speaker C Yeah. Okay. I think also mass hysteria makes a lot of sense, too, because people get riled up. It's also validated by the sheriff, like, immediately. So it's like, I feel good about coming out about it.

Speaker B People like to be included in things. I totally. I totally get it.

Speaker C Those are my answers to the three questions you asked me.

Speaker B Well done. Well done. Yeah, I. I don't know. I think it's cool. I think it's a very unique cryptid to have local to you. It's cooler than the Ohio grass. I don't know. I love these stories so much. I like that. How. There's one big one. There are some littler ones that held some. Held some weight, though.

Speaker C That's true. The. The. Was the farmer that saw the. The monster with the big arms.

Speaker B The guy smoking.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B The construction worker on his midnight bike ride.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B Just me, my Bach and my pack of cigarettes.

Speaker C My marble Reds or Camels. I don't know.

Speaker B Swishers. Yeah. I don't. I don't. I don't know. It's. It's crazy. Like, sometimes, even. Even doing this podcast, it's like, sometimes it's like we've covered it, and then you hear a story like this, and it's just got so much meat to it, and you're like, I've never heard of this. You know what I mean?

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B Like, it's just a constant reminder that there's so much strange out there.

Speaker C There's a lot.

Speaker B There's so much strange out there. I agree. I think if. I think it could be mass hysteria, but it had to come from something. This wasn't. This isn't a tulpa. This isn't just randomly invented. Not a butterbean farmer, not a. But. Well, that. I can't. I don't think so. I don't think so. I think. Nice try, Alicia. Nice try. She likes. She's part. She's like a sponsorship with that butterbean, like a farm, and she's like, how do I get this in the news? I think it had to come from something. I think some weird thing did happen now. But here's the thing. If one encounter is real and the rest are fake, that doesn't take away from the one real encounter.

Speaker C That's true.

Speaker B You know what I mean?

Speaker C Something still happened.

Speaker B I think something happened here. I don't know exactly what. Okay, let me. Before we do our rating, so we have our scale. If you're a new listener. Hello. I appreciate you getting all the way here, by the way. If you're a new listener, if you're an Old listener, I expect you to be here.

Speaker C This is the assignment.

Speaker B And I can say that because you're only hearing this if you're still here. So. But we rate it believable, viable, skeptical, and unbelievable. Skeptical investigator. We should change the name to that. So let me ask. Let's talk about this one point, and then we'll do a rating. Do you believe Christopher's tale in. In full. And. And I don't mean intentionally. I mean, do you believe it's true in that there was not even a mistake? Like, not like he faked it or he lied. I mean, like, what he saw was true. It wasn't just his perspective. Like, it really was a lizard man. It really was as tall as he thought. It had the claws that he said he wasn't just scared. I'm not saying he's lying.

Speaker C So from the story that I heard. Right. It makes sense. What he saw made sense to me. So, yes.

Speaker B The only part that I get tripped up on is he got in the car before this thing came. And I. Like, I was in that moment while telling the story, trying to justify the sputtering and everything. I don't know why it didn't just. I don't know why it like. And it, like, he's driving and it catches him.

Speaker C I have a couple thoughts on that. Right. He's pulled off to the side of the road. We don't know how big the shoulder is. Maybe it's covered in dirt.

Speaker B But there's a point in time where he's literally driving and it catches him.

Speaker C Maybe there's enough time to catch. I don't know.

Speaker B It's tough. I'm not saying he couldn't do it. This thing's fast. I mean, it went in front of an airplane. That's like. That's the meat. That's the main story. So it's. I don't think it's a farmer. I don't know. There's weird things. Like, what if he did just crash his car? He's like, I need to make something.

Speaker C I mean, that sounds very teenager to do.

Speaker B But then at the same time, he comes forward, that story, and you have people being like, from the past. Like, I saw this weird thing too. That's why it seems like there was just something weird for one year. One year something was passing through here. Yeah, I'm gonna go viable. I think something was going on here. But I don't know if everyone here has seen this lizard man.

Speaker C I go skeptical.

Speaker B Skeptical investigator Charles Leopold.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B I go reporting for duty.

Speaker C That's me.

Speaker B I'm gonna shut down your dream.

Speaker C Yeah, I'm skeptical. This is a silver. There's a lot of really good points that don't all match up. And you're right. I don't really believe the kids story all the way.

Speaker B So that is our episode. The Lizard man of Scape or Swamp. I hope you enjoyed it. I realized we hadn't done a cryptid in a minute. I think it was July and I think it was mimics. I'm putting mimics on.

Speaker C I gotta get scared. I gotta get scared again. That's what it is. I gotta get scared.

Speaker B You didn't let today scare you. You determined that this is gonna be a funny one.

Speaker C I was in a good mood. I don't know.

Speaker B It's not gonna be scary. Not that this one is inherently. I had to put us in the scene for the cops one.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B But no, this is, that's the fun thing with Cryptids though. Most of the time. Most of the time Cryptids is kind of like. But I mean if you're Christopher, that would be terrifying too.

Speaker C Yeah. Oh no, that's. That'd be.

Speaker B But doesn't matter because Charlie thinks lying. So I think he was mistaken. So thank you guys so much for listening to this episode again. Reminder, mark your calendars. Listen, we were thoughtful. Could we have done our live show right around Halloween weekend? We could have but we know you guys got plans. You're social people, you're not invest, you're not skeptic investigators. You have friends and family. So we know you have Halloween parties and things physically in real life person. So we decided our virtual live show on YouTube is going to be October 18th is 9:30pm Eastern time. Again live, live stream on YouTube. There'll be scary stories on site.

Speaker C Yeah.

Speaker B There will be trivia. You can win BCB merchandise. It's gonna be a lot of fun. So that's Saturday, October 18th at 9:30pm make sure you're following us on YouTube. Yeah, you're subscribed so you don't miss out. But also if you're enjoying the podcast, you can leave a five star review on Apple with a one time thought. Just like listen to all episodes and just give us one overarching thought on what you think of the podcast. It was good. Like Tyler, Charlie or it's just five star. That's cool. But if you are listening on Spotify, which we know you are, we, we, our host, our current host shows us Spotify versus regular. Yeah, it is. It's kind of alarming. It's like a Spotify goes down. We're kind of in trouble. But you can comment on every single episode. Charlie, what was last week's episode?

Speaker C Last week's episode was Voyage. Oh, yeah. The Voynich manuscript.

Speaker B That's right. Got a couple responses to that episode. Celestial Molly said, alchemists who tended to dabble both in philosophy and chemistry often hit their notes and riddles and metaphor to make them harder to decipher. For the uninitiated, Therefore, the theory that it's coded language most resonates with me based on what we know about historical occult practices. Also, you should get an ida. IDA book bag. They have an outer layer of clear vinyl plastic to protect your pins. Because our pins kept falling off the bag. Yeah. Krueger girl said, I love this. So mysterious. I'm deaf pro alien theory for this one.

Speaker C Yeah, I. I do. I do, like, think the. The code holds a lot of weight for the Voyage.

Speaker B Yeah. And then Sarah Mellow one said, fun fact, in Italy, we still study Latin because some old books, other than the Vatican ones, they're still in Latin. There's different stages of Latin, too, because of the evolution. Just thought you guys might be interested in this fact. Love you guys. You're amazing.

Speaker C That's very cool. That's very cool. It's kind of like Old English, Middle English, like I was talking about during the episode.

Speaker B Right. So if you have a thought on this episode, you can leave that right here. I'd love to know what you guys think about the lizard man.

Speaker C So if you like this episode and you want to hear more, you can join our Patreon. We have a Patreon. If you want to support the show, there's something dropping every Wednesday and Friday if you want. If you get lucky, you could probably listen to something BTB every day of the week.

Speaker B Well, this does go back until 2021.

Speaker C Wow. What a back catalog. Tyler, that's amazing.

Speaker B There's a lot of extra stuff there. But, hey, we appreciate you so much for listening, for supporting us, for sharing with your friends. It means a lot to us. Thank you guys, as always. I'm Tyler.

Speaker C And I'm Charlie.

Speaker B And catch us next week on Believing, the Bazaar, the podcast.

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Speaker B Join three friends as they embark on an epic journey into the heart of darkness. The Void Wherever you get your podcasts.

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The Lizard Man of Scape Ore Swamp

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