The Early Career Perspective

Interactive Transcript

spk_0 Periodically, it's back for season two. We are still going to be talking to you about

spk_0 all things periods and chemistry, but this time we have a twist. This year we are very

spk_0 grateful to welcome guests onto the podcast from all over the UK. In our next six episodes,

spk_0 our guests will be talking to us about their experiences with menstrual and reproductive

spk_0 health, where we take a deep dive into topics ranging from endometriosis, pregnancy and the

spk_0 menopause to name a few. Our guests represent a wide range of experiences and are at different

spk_0 points in their career, and we hope this will shed light on the impact that menstruation

spk_0 can have at all points in our lives. We still continue our quest to find out and talk

spk_0 about how menstruation can sometimes just get in the bloody way. This year we'd like to thank

spk_0 the RSC Inclusion and Diversity Fund, the University of Oxford Chemistry Department and the

spk_0 EPSRC funded Ox ICFM CDT for supporting the podcast. Hi everyone and thanks for joining us for

spk_0 another episode of Periodically Season Two. My name is Monami and I will be one of your hosts today.

spk_0 And hi, I'm Charlie, your other host for today's episode. We are really excited to be joined here

spk_0 with Dr Jenny Monde from the University of Durham. So without further ado, Jenny would you like

spk_0 to introduce yourself and a bit about what you do? Hi, thank you for having me. I'm a physical

spk_0 chemistry-based lecturer and most of my job so far has been kind of lab demonstrating and lab

spk_0 leading, but I do do a bit of lecturing and tutorials and stuff as well at the University of Durham.

spk_0 I do have slightly less fun facty about chemistry, but this is a bit of a full circle moment for me.

spk_0 I'm from Newcastle and I don't have much of an accent, but I was actually born in Oxford,

spk_0 not been back since I was born really, but it's really nice to be here and kind of see the place

spk_0 of my birth. That's kind of a brief history of me. Thank you so much, Jenny. And today,

spk_0 Jenny is going to be talking about her life as an early career's academic who has just recently

spk_0 finished her PhD and Jenny will be discussing how menstruation has impacted her career and the

spk_0 struggles she has faced. As a teaching following chemistry, Jenny sees the opposite side of what we

spk_0 focused on in the first season, where we investigated labs, tutorials and just the general workload.

spk_0 Also, as an early career's academic in chemistry, there is a bottleneck to reaching a permanent

spk_0 position and according to some research, only 3.5% of chemistry PhD students go into a permanent

spk_0 position within a research institution. In terms of the gender imbalance, at higher levels,

spk_0 there is only 9% of professors in chemistry who are women. Trying to get more women through

spk_0 the bottleneck and supporting them in their early career means that in the future, hopefully,

spk_0 this gender imbalance will become more balanced. Jenny is going to talk about her experience and how

spk_0 she has got to where she has today and how that has been impacted by menstruation and systemic

spk_0 gender imbalances. Thank you, Jenny, for coming all the way down from Durham or even Newcastle, I guess.

spk_0 It's quite a way and we're really excited to have you here. Just to start with, it would be great

spk_0 if you could tell us a bit about your experience with menstruation. Have you felt like your career

spk_0 has been different to your peers who do not have a period? I would call myself fairly fortunate of

spk_0 the period having people in that I'm fairly regular, so it's quite predictable. But I do have a

spk_0 weird kind of one month will be super light and everything's fine and one month will be the month

spk_0 from hell, where often it's a day if I can work from home I will because it's hard to get out of

spk_0 bed and it's really hurts and all that wonderful thing. So at least I can predict when that's going

spk_0 to happen, but it does make, I guess, an extra level of complexity onto what is already quite a

spk_0 difficult kind of influx time of life. You just feel like you've got something to prove you

spk_0 constantly kind of working towards something, whether it's an exit of exams or doing your PhD thesis

spk_0 or applying for jobs, that may or may not have all come at the same time for me and that has been

spk_0 really difficult. And again, I would call myself fairly fortunate in the department I'm in.

spk_0 I've had a massive support network of wonderful women who have supported me and I would feel

spk_0 very comfortable talking about this too, but as a particularly more physical chemist, the area

spk_0 is dominated quite heavily by men that are older than me or people that don't have periods.

spk_0 And while it might be quite an internalised problem and I haven't talked about it with them,

spk_0 so I don't know how they would react, but it's almost the safer option to just not bring it up

spk_0 and deal with it yourself because you don't know how they're going to react to it. So trying to

spk_0 navigate that mentally and physically is quite taxing when you're already worried about all the other

spk_0 things of what's the next step coming on. And when you're early careers in academia, you are on short

spk_0 term contracts. You do know your time is limited. You do feel like you've got something to prove in

spk_0 order for your contract to be renewed and it's just something that kind of has to go to the back of

spk_0 your mind and you do have to get half that. Right, back up, you've just got to get on with it,

spk_0 it happens to everybody, you'll be fine. But yeah, that's I guess the main issue I've faced and

spk_0 I haven't gone on birth control a lot of people say, oh, it might make things easier

spk_0 being able to plan a bit more, but it doesn't really suit me. My grandma passed away of a blood

spk_0 plot very shortly after she went on a hormone replacement therapy for the menopause and this was

spk_0 all before I was born, but it has induced that sort of fear in my family of messing with your hormones.

spk_0 So I've always been advised, just stay away from it. You've got a family history of that.

spk_0 So it hasn't really suited me to be able to do all of that, which on the plus side,

spk_0 I'm super regular and it doesn't really matter, but that's not an option for me. So having

spk_0 knowing that I'm always going to have to deal with that is quite a daunting task.

spk_0 Yeah. Thank you for telling us about that. I think this is also one of the kind of things we

spk_0 talked about a bit in season one is that often the pill is seen as you know a cure roll kind of

spk_0 thing. It's not just giving to us for contraceptive. It's given to us if we've got heavy periods,

spk_0 if we've got mood disorders, if we've got basically I feel like anything that is female health,

spk_0 they're like, oh yeah, we'll just we'll just put you on some hormone replacement and see what

spk_0 that does. And sometimes it works and it's great and for some people it works like the best thing

spk_0 you can imagine. But again, as you said, it's not an option for some people and also the options are

spk_0 quite limited for quite a lot of people. As you say with the transfer blood clots in your family,

spk_0 there's also things like increased chances of stroke if you have. So I can't have the

spk_0 Eastern pill because I have migraines with aura which you can't have if you've got that. So that

spk_0 really limited my options. And it's also why I'm not on the pill because the progesterone only

spk_0 pill was one that made me feel really grumpy and sad all the time. So I just didn't want to have that.

spk_0 So I think this is it as well. It's like, you know, there are options there, but sometimes they're

spk_0 just not good enough. And as you say, getting to use your body and trying to deal with it. And

spk_0 you know, when there isn't the kind of medical support, there needs to be some kind of societal

spk_0 support to be like, okay, yeah, we understand that you can't actually go through some of these

spk_0 things that makes it easier like taking pills. But now how can we make it easier at work and things

spk_0 like that? So yeah, I think that was really important what you were talking about.

spk_0 Yeah, and just on what you were saying, not just the kind of physical pain of back pain and cramps

spk_0 and all of that fatigue, there's also the the mental instability, I guess. Instability makes it sound

spk_0 like it's you're about to snap. I guess sometimes I am a little bit like that. But I would say I have

spk_0 fairly high energy teaching style, which most days of the month absolutely fine. And it is how I

spk_0 prefer to teach. I kind of slip into it. I'm not doing it on purpose, but I become very aware of

spk_0 that teaching style on my period. And it's almost like I have to put on a facade. And I can only

spk_0 imagine having to deal with the pill and stuff like that and hormone changes if you are feeling grumpy

spk_0 because my partner will tell you I get a bit grumpy at that time of the month. But it's hard

spk_0 to keep that up while you're also feeling unwell. And I don't want my students to be affected by

spk_0 differences in teaching style across the month. Say I've got four tutorials that I give a month

spk_0 once a week. I don't want one tutorial group to be disadvantaged because they always seem to fall

spk_0 on that time of the month, for example. Not that I think it does change, but there's always that

spk_0 internal battle in your head, isn't there of am I acting different? Am I doing it right? What if

spk_0 I'm doing it wrong? What if I'm letting people down? And there's no way of knowing that because you're

spk_0 not the student, you're not seeing what you're doing. So it's hard mentally to make sure you're doing

spk_0 the right thing and not questioning yourself too much. Yeah. Yeah, it can be really hard because

spk_0 you can't see yourself because you are yourself. And what you mentioned about your energy when you

spk_0 teach is really interesting. And it really does make a difference when you have an energetic lecturer

spk_0 or demonstrator can make it a lot more enjoyable, especially in a long lab day. Do you feel the pressure

spk_0 to maintain this? And what do you think causes this pressure? I guess early careers academic,

spk_0 I briefly mentioned, it does feel like you have to prove yourself a little bit. Sometimes you're

spk_0 kind of competing with what's happening with your body and you just feel like you have to get on

spk_0 with it. It can sometimes feel like you're a little bit of a disadvantage compared to people who

spk_0 maybe don't have periods and you're kind of fighting the curve a little bit. But again, this pressure

spk_0 is super internal. I think there isn't an atmosphere at the moment of being super open about it and

spk_0 it just being something that you might drop into conversation. You're like, hey, I'm on my period

spk_0 today. Life's a bit rubbish today, isn't it? It's not comfy to say that whether it's totally

spk_0 acceptable and every single person in the department might be absolutely fine with that being a conversation.

spk_0 It's not a comfy thing to be the first person to start doing. So yeah, I do feel pressure to then

spk_0 maintain that, especially like I said, I'm quite lab based as a demonstrator. So I do spend super long

spk_0 hours in the lab. So this year, I've been mostly in the third year teaching lab. So that's six hours

spk_0 a day with a break for lunch, two days a week next year. I'm going to be taking on the second year

spk_0 lab as well. So that'll be Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday. I won't be in all of that time. It's

spk_0 usually three to six hours a week, but sometimes it can be more if you have to cover people. But

spk_0 feeling that pressure to have to, if it's a bad day, if you'll say the module leader for that course

spk_0 in the staff members not well or that has had to reschedule and you haven't realized that's

spk_0 going to be a heavy period day, sometimes you can be in there all day on your feet and keeping

spk_0 keeping that energy up and feeling like you don't want to sit down because I'm quite an active

spk_0 teacher. I don't feel like demonstrators should just be sat doing something else while the students

spk_0 are all working. You should be on your feet. You should be talking to people. You should be

spk_0 encouraging conversations while you're in the lab. It's a really good opportunity for people to

spk_0 actively learn and that's where we can capture them the most. So I want to be on my feet. I want

spk_0 to be talking to them and sometimes you just need to find that little, that little lull to lean on

spk_0 a basketball and take a break. But again, that internalises it for you and I'm sure statistically

spk_0 in that lab, there will be somebody else on their period at the same time. And I don't notice

spk_0 people having to take breaks and things like that. So I feel like they can't notice me doing that

spk_0 so whether it's, I don't know if you have thoughts on this, but almost like if I was more open

spk_0 to even the students, not just talking about staff members of that, if I need a break just to sit

spk_0 down and be like, oh, I'll pull up a chair while we chat because I need to sit down whether

spk_0 that would then encourage students to feel like they can do the same thing because well, we don't

spk_0 encourage students to sit down all the time because it can be dangerous working with chemicals,

spk_0 whether there's an area they can go sit down in while we have a chat, it might be something

spk_0 that we could do. Yeah, I think that sounds great. And when you see kind of a demonstrator doing that,

spk_0 you kind of know you can do it too as a student. So I think that would really make students who are

spk_0 going through periods or whatever health issues really feel more comfortable in that situation.

spk_0 And I think we can often forget that these lecturers, supervisors and staff members are going through

spk_0 this too and are equally having a rough time in the lab sometimes. So do you have any specific

spk_0 situations where your period has affected you in a negative way that isn't in a teaching setting?

spk_0 Yeah, so on the kind of careers track, so I was finishing up my PhD last year, writing up,

spk_0 submitted, did my Viva in December, all the while I was having to apply for my current role as

spk_0 a lecturer. So I was a teaching fellow starting last year in January and around the same time

spk_0 that I was having to submit all my thesis and everything. I was also applying for this job because I

spk_0 knew my current position was coming to an end. Those two things you'd think would be stressful enough,

spk_0 but the day of my interview, super important interview for keeping going at Durham because

spk_0 I'm based in Newcastle. I don't really want to have to travel much further than that. I get my period.

spk_0 And it was a bad one. So I said I have one month on one month off. It was there with some fury.

spk_0 And the first day of my period is always the worst. It's always the one that I try to avoid if I

spk_0 if I can because it's super painful. And as part of this application process, it was a two-day

spk_0 long application process. The first day was doing a lecture and a tutorial and then kind of

spk_0 tours of the department and things like that and socialising with the other candidates going

spk_0 out for dinner at the end of the day and then the next day would be kind of interviews, formal

spk_0 interviews. And so the first day was the day that I had to be on my feet doing this lecture

spk_0 and on my feet doing the tutorial and on my feet doing a tour of the department all the while

spk_0 all the other candidates were male. Luckily for me, it was in Durham and I have perhaps a little bit

spk_0 of nepotism through the fact I didn't really need a tour of the department because I did my undergrad

spk_0 there. I did my PhD there. I have my office there. So they kind of nudged me and said, do you want to

spk_0 just stay in your office while we do the tour with the other people? But it turned out because of my

spk_0 period, I was just in so much pain. I'd just done my lecture and like I said, I'm quiet enough,

spk_0 beat lecturing style. So I was on my feet. I talked with my hands and I move. And at the end of that,

spk_0 I was being punished for it. So I went up to my office. I made a little bench out of the

spk_0 chairs I use for my tutorials. I curled up in a ball, took some painkillers and just set a time

spk_0 of a when I had to do my tutorial and tried to rock the pain away in the fetal position on this

spk_0 bench of chairs. And that's the kind of behind the scenes that you might not see happening. But

spk_0 I'm just sure I'm not the only one that's had to go take a break and sit in the toilets and just

spk_0 curl up in a ball because it's more comfortable to be curled hunched up than it is to be

spk_0 straightened on your feet. So I thought that was quite resourceful, made a bet instead of lying on

spk_0 the floor, which has happened before. But yeah, it's not something that you necessarily think of as

spk_0 happening. And I'm sure when you're planning interviews and stuff, I've seen the other side of it

spk_0 now of planning for upcoming interviews in the department. And that is stressful enough trying

spk_0 to balance time-tabelling versus what you need to cover during the interviews. And it is

spk_0 unavoidable that you have to do all of that during the day. But I was so lucky that it was at

spk_0 Durham and I did have an office that I could go and I always keep a kit of period stuff in there

spk_0 with painkillers and pads and tampons and things. So if anybody was in that position, including myself,

spk_0 it's there. But if I was visiting Oxford to apply for a position, I wouldn't have anywhere to

spk_0 go really other than the toilets and I would have to break away and I'd be worried that I'd be

spk_0 gone for a little bit too long and I would have to put on a brave face and keep going. And then

spk_0 having to go and do the tutorial and I'd had this whole thing planned where I was going to be super

spk_0 interactive and run around and I ended up being slightly more on the spot than I had planned. But

spk_0 yeah, it's really hard to just do the basic things like walk around the department. And I know

spk_0 it's my job, give a lecture. It doesn't feel like that's something that hard standing. And I guess

spk_0 people think the worst bit is standing and talking in front of a bunch of people and it's not

spk_0 it's sometimes the physical aspect of it as well and that's not just having periods. It's any sort

spk_0 of disability or anything that requires you to have to stand for too long. You also have that

spk_0 again, in post-acindrom, not worrying, you're not going to be yourself but then is yourself good

spk_0 enough is all that, there's extra anxiety during my period and it's just not a simple thing.

spk_0 It's not just the anxiety of the interview, the anxiety of the interview and am I leaking?

spk_0 Can people see? It's super heavy today and I've got my emergency kit with me but I haven't got

spk_0 all the other stuff that I brought with me and can I sneak away to go get some painkillers

spk_0 and all that. So yeah, but luckily I did get the job. So it can't have been as bad as I thought it

spk_0 was in my head but yeah, it was tough. Yeah, I think what you were saying about kind of the unseen

spk_0 side of things, how you could kind of, you had the opportunity to go into your office and just kind of

spk_0 almost like do a bit of self-care, look after yourself. I think that that is something that

spk_0 is not even just useful for those who have like really painful periods but for anybody who has

spk_0 kind of a disability who needs a bit of time, you know, when they're going through the interview

spk_0 process to take some time for themselves to sit down and also maybe just to process what they're

spk_0 doing and you know what they're going through because I have had some of these infused days where

spk_0 they're like full on days, you know, and they've got the timepables for everything and you kind of

spk_0 think, oh, even just as, you know, maybe not having a sick day, you kind of think, oh well,

spk_0 it would be good just to have five minutes to myself to sit down and process it but when you're

spk_0 ill and you need some way to sit down and kind of medicate and look after yourself for a bit,

spk_0 as you say, also I've done it so many times in the toilet as well, like it's just not a nice place

spk_0 to sit down is it really? It's like not exactly what you want to be doing but as I said, I've done it before

spk_0 so I think this kind of idea of bringing in a space that is, you know, can be private but is also

spk_0 accessible for people so that when they're having their interviews they can take some time out.

spk_0 I think that would be really good and as you said as well, you know, it's not something that you'd

spk_0 want to maybe bring up even at an interview and it's not something that you should want, should have

spk_0 to bring up but it might be good that if the interviewers already are aware of and they might say

spk_0 at the beginning of the day, you know, we're understanding that some people have some

spk_0 and different requirements and accessibility needs, you don't have to tell us what that is but

spk_0 here's me signposting you to things in this brand new department that you've never been to before

spk_0 so that you know where things are, I think that could be quite a useful thing for you to have.

spk_0 Yeah, I think it's also important to actually name menstrual issues as well say if you're having

spk_0 your period or something like that and you need a break because while it's all well and good,

spk_0 I wouldn't want to then say, hey, I'm having my period, is there somewhere that I can go to just

spk_0 have a bit of a sit down? It's almost like I would only be comfortable doing that if somebody said

spk_0 to me, if this is an issue for you, you can go here, they don't have to list every single

spk_0 disability you might have and every menstrual issue you might have but making it more obvious

spk_0 that it is okay to say that not just we are saying this to tick some EDI boxes for the university,

spk_0 this is we genuinely mean it and it's not going to affect you in any way even if everybody else

spk_0 doesn't need that is I think super important for people to create an atmosphere of kind of

spk_0 actual inclusivity. Yeah, yeah, I think that atmosphere is really important because even if people

spk_0 say it's okay, if you can't feel like it is actually okay and it won't affect your grade or

spk_0 the job or whatever, it can really have that barrier of not wanting to take those opportunities

spk_0 because it doesn't feel like an actual thing that they want to help you with. And it's heightened

spk_0 right in interviews and exams and stuff, you already feel like people are judging you,

spk_0 like you're going into that environment where you feel you are being judged. So it's just another

spk_0 thing that you feel you might be able to be judged on even though that's absolutely not going

spk_0 to be the case in nine times out of ten but what if it's the one right? So you want to match

spk_0 the people that don't have periods and be like look I can do all of that and have a period,

spk_0 look at me go but that's not how it's seen. Now and this is I think that internal barrier that you

spk_0 talk about is really important and I'm like only just thinking about it then. I like came up

spk_0 a period of the weekend and I have the same as you, I have like a kind of a chill one and then I have

spk_0 like the period from hell that just wants to like eat me up basically for a week and then that

spk_0 one started at the weekend and all I could think was like I've got to go record podcasts and I've

spk_0 got to I want to be like really excited and show people around and like have my amazing guests

spk_0 here and you know be able to talk to them and like be really happy but at the same time I was like

spk_0 but I know at this time in my period I'm not really like that I'm not I'm not my favorite self

spk_0 at this time I think that's how it is like I'm still myself but I'm not who I really like to be

spk_0 I'm a bit more like tired and all these things and I I had the same mental barrier I had this

spk_0 thing in my head where I was like well this episode is just not going to be like how I want it to be

spk_0 and all this kind of stuff and I don't think that's necessarily true I'm really like happy with the

spk_0 but I think that the internal barrier that you also get when you're thinking about peers

spk_0 is again this extra work that's hidden that nobody really equates for or thinks about in terms of

spk_0 you know it's not only that we're having periods of meddling with the physical symptoms

spk_0 we're also dealing with the mental health behind it but also preconceptions that we have

spk_0 as well and battling with ourselves in a way because we are in this society that's not really

spk_0 normalized it and I think that only by talking about it as you said we can get a bit more of a

spk_0 comfortable place with this stuff in fact it's been really nice talking to you because I thought

spk_0 I was the only one that had to take myself away and curl up in a ball in the bathroom or now I get

spk_0 an office but before when I was doing my PhD and you're in shared offices and stuff it was the

spk_0 disabled toilet and I'd never openly talked to someone about having to do that because it was

spk_0 shameful toilets a dirty right periods must be dirty and it's a taboo subject and it's really

spk_0 nice to hear that you've done the same thing and you've done the same thing and like just being able

spk_0 to say that and maybe have a little bit of a laugh about it it's not a big deal we make it sound

spk_0 like it's all big doom and gloom and being a woman's just rubbish being a woman's great in

spk_0 loads of respects but I like to find the humor in things and it's nice just to be able to chat

spk_0 and smile about it and be like oh yeah isn't this a rubbish thing that we all have to go

spk_0 through together but that would be so lovely to just be open and like in the taxi on the way here

spk_0 we were talking about all the episodes you've been doing and it was really interesting to talk about

spk_0 periods and stuff but there was a moment where I suddenly realised the taxi driver was a man

spk_0 and being like I wonder what he's thinking about all of this wow that was a thought that was in my

spk_0 head just I couldn't stop that kind of almost intrusive thought of but there's someone else here

spk_0 that isn't a period having person or that I know of and I guess that's the issue right

spk_0 and it's just constantly something that's taking in the back of your mind that you have to

spk_0 not fight against but almost marvel at the fact that there are other people listening to this

spk_0 conversation and I think that is the important thing that the taxi driver is listening to you talk

spk_0 about it and the person passing in the street is listening to you talking about it and that is what

spk_0 needs to happen more yeah I think that's exactly hitting the nail on the head there it's just this

spk_0 you know this normalisation if we start talking about it like we do I think a great example of it

spk_0 was you know when we started to really tell people we were sick when we were dealing with COVID

spk_0 and the COVID pandemic we started to actually say you know I'm not feeling very well today I'm not

spk_0 actually going to come into work because it could be you know at the time it could be COVID and that's

spk_0 why we didn't want to be contagious but that got us so like in a really good position to just start

spk_0 talking about health a bit more and about being able to go to work and that firstly not be like

spk_0 a safety issue for everybody else at work but also you know comfortable enough to be like I'm

spk_0 actually not 100% today and it could be this so I'm going to stay at home and I think that that is

spk_0 something that works really well in terms of like that got normalized very fast it was obviously

spk_0 crazy situation to be in but it shows that you know once we do start talking about stuff

spk_0 we can change it quite quickly and hopefully we can really get people to understand a bit more

spk_0 about periods and everything that comes with them so yeah I think that kind of hits on the head

spk_0 one thing that we need to consider is the balance and lifestyle and the self care taking time

spk_0 for yourself and balancing that all when you are early careers academic how do you go about this

spk_0 do you have any tips for anyone who is going through this right now yeah I'm finding it very

spk_0 rewarding I love teaching I love working with students it's can't imagine doing anything else

spk_0 right now but in the early career stage it's quite intense there aren't that many of us on the

spk_0 education track and we do have to pick up a lot of stuff we've been doing quite a lot of course

spk_0 restructuring and things like that and there have been days where I've been in eight and haven't left

spk_0 until the department closes it but seven and then commute an hour to get home and then I get home at

spk_0 eight o'clock at night have some food and then it's pretty much time for bed to repeat so they are

spk_0 quite long hours and while that's not encouraged sorry Durham I'm not meant to be working that long

spk_0 contractually but sometimes you just have to because otherwise it doesn't get done and like I said

spk_0 it's super rewarding I feel I owe a lot to the students and I don't want to let them down

spk_0 but then you don't get to balance the lifestyle quite as much as you might want to so

spk_0 bring it back to menstruation I find that when I exercise when I have a healthy diet and stuff like

spk_0 that my periods are a lot more manageable I would say I have led a fairly sedentary lifestyle

spk_0 but during covid actually that was a good thing that came out of covid I did the couch to 5K

spk_0 program and it was the first time that I've actually exercised regularly and I wasn't expecting it

spk_0 but the main side effect of doing the couch to 5K was not just getting a little bit fitter but it's

spk_0 actually my periods were a bit lighter there were a bit more manageable my cramps were less intense

spk_0 and that was magic and it was one of the main driving forces for me keeping going really it wasn't

spk_0 so much the fitness because I hate exercise but that was such a big eye opener in terms of being

spk_0 able to exercise and having that balance during covid was kind of okay and that was good but as

spk_0 soon as I got back into kind of now normal hours I can't do that anymore there's also the being a

spk_0 female where I live I'm in the kind of city centre of Newcastle there are some not super safe

spk_0 after dark areas quite near where I live super safe during the day fine but if you're not getting

spk_0 back until after it's dark I don't really want to go trek out to the gym a bit intimidating when

spk_0 I'm not really an exerciseer I feel a bit like a fraud so I just want to go run in the park during

spk_0 the daytime that's not going to happen with my current lifestyle I've still got really long hours

spk_0 I don't want to go off and use my lunch break to go for a run and then come back sweaty for the

spk_0 rest of the day and on my period so that has fallen by the way side a little bit I am trying to pick it

spk_0 up a bit more now it's coming towards the summer and there's longer days and I can get out for maybe

spk_0 half an hour as soon as I get back from work but sometimes you just knackered if you're on your

spk_0 feet all day after being in the lab I just want to come home sticking another pizza watch some

spk_0 rubbish TV and then go to bed especially if you're on your period it's always the joke that my

spk_0 partner will bring a milkshake the day before my period and be like I know it's coming and I

spk_0 won't even realise and he knows way before I do that it's happening because my mood will change

spk_0 or something like that and that's all that I want when I'm on my period is a chocolate milkshake

spk_0 so that's not the healthiest and that makes the cramps worse which makes the cravings worse

spk_0 and it's just a vicious cycle so there isn't that facility for me right now while I'm still quite

spk_0 again internally forcing myself to do kind of longer hours and maybe work in the evening because

spk_0 I've got a lot of time to catch up on or things like that which again isn't encouraged but it's

spk_0 kind of the norm to then fit exercise around that at the moment is a no which is making the menstruation

spk_0 worse and he said some tips for people I'm not sure I figured it out yet but there is definitely

spk_0 a lifestyle balance that I think is super important that becomes a conversation that I know

spk_0 employers try to support healthy lifestyles and stuff like that but it's not always given with

spk_0 the same recognition that the healthy lifestyle leaves to fitness and it's better heart health

spk_0 and you're less likely to have a heart attack and stuff like that but they don't think about the

spk_0 benefits of healthy lifestyles towards menstruation and actually it can make it a lot easier if I had

spk_0 lighter periods I'd be much happier demonstrating for the day versus the heavy period where thank goodness

spk_0 the physical chemistry lab have bright red lab coats but if I had to wear white lab coat all day I would

spk_0 be absolutely mortified and as a senior demonstrator I can't leave the lab so we don't have to senior

spk_0 demonstrators and that I need to be there as safety cover so my junior demonstrators can go

spk_0 and come in and out if they need to go quickly and get to the toilet but I have to be there

spk_0 for the entire session unless I can somehow like team's message someone else to come in and

spk_0 be that safety cover while I nap out so I know I'm in there for three hours minimum so I need to

spk_0 make sure that I'm set before I start and things like that and it's just yeah I'm not sure I figured

spk_0 out the whole lifestyle thing yet but I know it's a problem and I know it's something that

spk_0 I need to maybe schedule my time a little bit better I think this is something as well I think

spk_0 that comes with academia in general and I also like at different points is that I also have the

spk_0 same thing when I exercise I actually find I get really bad back it but by exercising I go swimming

spk_0 and it really helps my back pain but also I don't like going swimming when I'm on my period

spk_0 so there's like a lot of issues because that's like how I like exercise I can't run I will never be

spk_0 able to run I tried the couch 5k during COVID that did not go very well I only did it on my second attempt

spk_0 yeah that's that is very good though um but yeah so I think this is a thing about like exercising

spk_0 also trying to find the time to go and do the exercise is hard with the kind of long hours you're

spk_0 expected I guess it could be at any point in any kind of career but especially when you're trying

spk_0 to style as a career and it feels like oh actually you know like oh I shouldn't be spending my time

spk_0 on that because I should be right in this or I should be right in that but as you said it actually

spk_0 makes things easier and as long and trying to find ways that departments and institutions can

spk_0 be supported in this whether they are like put out a run club because I know that Edinburgh

spk_0 needs to have like a run club or they put on five aside football or something like that it's

spk_0 like a really nice way because then you can do it and you go straight from department with people

spk_0 who are in the same situation as you and then it becomes like maybe more normalized or even if you

spk_0 don't want to do that but you can see that they're doing doing it and people are talking about it

spk_0 that gives you the motivation to be like maybe I'm not a team sports person because I'm a little

spk_0 embarrassed or I've got this or or I've got to get home for if you've got family that you got to

spk_0 get back to or anything like that but just seeing that other the university is allowing it to happen

spk_0 kind of gives you the motivation to be like right I can do it once you get started it's less daunting

spk_0 but it's the idea of then having to like oh I've got to go to the gym this evening and it's already

spk_0 negative it needs to be a positive thing yeah I was just going to take it back as well to when you

spk_0 were talking about being in the lab so as a demonstrator and the lecturer is there anything that

spk_0 you would like to kind of standardize to make sure that staff are kind of all in the same boat

spk_0 when they're dealing with things so that the whole situation is easier for both students and staff

spk_0 who menstruate yeah I guess it's kind of a two-sided thing especially when you're kind of education

spk_0 focused is that you've got to talk to the students and you've got to talk to the staff and they're

spk_0 kind of actually three you've got to talk to the undergraduate students you've got to take to the

spk_0 postgraduate students and to the staff because they will all have different responsibilities that they

spk_0 work with you about so the undergraduates you are teaching you are helping them you need to make

spk_0 it a supportive environment for them to be able to come and talk to you about it and I'm very proud

spk_0 of being a female and I would hope that I'm a fairly approachable one through being trying to be

spk_0 high energy and trying to talk to them and and make them feel like people rather than statistics

spk_0 but I can imagine I mean I did my undergrad there and in the physical chemistry teaching lab

spk_0 there was maybe one female demonstrator but wasn't there all the time it was mostly male and I certainly

spk_0 would not have been comfortable saying at that point I mean I would call myself fairly

spk_0 confident speaking now but at the time I was incredibly quiet and anxious people used to have

spk_0 pick on me to ask me questions because I wouldn't offer information even if I knew it because what if

spk_0 it's wrong or something like that I was much more of an independent learner so it didn't feel like

spk_0 the environment and then now being staff there I'm super conscious that I want to be that person

spk_0 because there wasn't anybody like me at the time that was young and or young looking and clearly

spk_0 has a period but there isn't an official kind of pastoral care support network that I knew of

spk_0 at the time and there is much more in place now like free sanitary products in the toilets and

spk_0 we have talk regular talks in fact we've got menopause awareness talks coming up in the next couple

spk_0 of weeks which will be really good but that all seems to happen in the holidays because that's when

spk_0 on that sometimes so having more student focused stuff like that and an actual avenue's in place

spk_0 where people think they're not going to be disadvantaged I know I did have a student the other day

spk_0 that I could tell there was something wrong and they were sitting down a lot and they looked like

spk_0 they were struggling a bit so it just went over and said she was having cramps and I know all that

spk_0 means there's nobody says I'm on my period because somebody might hear you say you're on your period

spk_0 but you use code words like I've got stomach ache or cramps or something like that that doesn't

spk_0 sound quite so much as a to-be word and then you like right that's fine and that's fine

spk_0 but students don't know that that's absolutely fine that that's okay and I checked in on the

spk_0 matter within it was absolutely fine but knowing that it's okay isn't always an official thing

spk_0 it's have you found the right staff member that you're okay talking to about that and we need to

spk_0 make sure that it's every staff member and not just the right one in the right place at the right

spk_0 time to be able to do that which is where conversations with staff comes in I guess so you've got

spk_0 to talk to the underguards and make them feel safe you have to make sure the post-grads feel safe

spk_0 they're your junior demonstrators you're working with them as colleagues at my stage because I've only

spk_0 just started I mean I'm 27 just about to be 28 so there will be PhD students that are the same

spk_0 ages me that I am responsible for their safety and need to make sure that they feel like they can

spk_0 say something if they're not well that day either and it all comes back to having open conversations

spk_0 with all the staff members and making sure everybody is aware that this isn't just something that

spk_0 is on the student to have to deal with and while primarily it might fall to that and yes we do

spk_0 have a responsibility to make sure that we're okay there is also a responsibility of all the staff

spk_0 you don't even have to do much you don't even have to go up and be like hey you on your period are

spk_0 you okay we don't want that but it's that awareness of what to look for in students that might

spk_0 be struggling so I knew something was wrong because she was sitting down a lot and was quieter than

spk_0 I'd seen her be before and that's comes back to the I don't want to just be sitting doing other

spk_0 work while I'm in the lab I don't know my students that way so I can't tell if something's wrong

spk_0 but I know my students now I know that they were quieter and I could look out for that without having

spk_0 to make it a big deal and I think that is the important bit of it is that you have to look for the

spk_0 signs and if you don't have a period I can sympathise that might be quite difficult because you

spk_0 can't really understand it until you've had it so there's some sort of sensitivity thing that

spk_0 needs to go on there as an as an official training almost at it hesitate to say training

spk_0 because it just feels like it should be something that is there but it does need

spk_0 addressing when people are being trained to be demonstrators and often you have demonstrated

spk_0 training before you start the year and that's mostly focused at junior demonstrators because they

spk_0 might have been doing it for a year two years three years but on the grand scheme of things are

spk_0 fairly new to it researchers who have been doing it for decades don't feel all the time like they

spk_0 need to be trained because it's been running successfully for this many years and it needs to be a

spk_0 refresher maybe of what to look out for as it becomes more visible I think is super important.

spk_0 When you talk about you know of the refresher training for you know people that are maybe

spk_0 been doing it for a long time I think that would be really good because we've talked about in

spk_0 like series one about demonstrator training and they've actually started to put it into

spk_0 demonstrating training here which is really nice because the staff in our teaching laboratory have

spk_0 really been super receptive to things that we've been saying on the podcast which is great.

spk_0 It's just really nice to see yeah and it is it shows you that once you start talking about this and

spk_0 you start asking for things like people are willing to listen most of the time and are willing to

spk_0 help as much as they can but as you say I think this is something that we hadn't really thought about

spk_0 some refresher training maybe for some of the senior demonstrators or I know that in other universities

spk_0 where they just have researchers that come in and do a lab stint for a few hours it would be good

spk_0 for them to also have this kind of maybe not training but you know just a mention when you do tell

spk_0 them that you know these are things look for you know we're looking for things that might be kind of

spk_0 you know some some orange red flags of how they are acting and this could be you know it could be

spk_0 that they're with they're having a really bad period but it might just mean that they've got like

spk_0 really bad stomach ache or you know all these other things so we have something going on at home

spk_0 yeah it's just good things to be able to pick upon and just you know that pastoral pair being

spk_0 are you okay and even if they say I don't want to tell you why but you still ask them and say you

spk_0 know you can take five minutes awesome things really nice and like we both kind of said I think that

spk_0 would be received really positively it sounds like oh there's going to be loads of grumpy academics

spk_0 who aren't up for that and that's why we need the training that's not what I'm saying it's it's

spk_0 that everybody will be game for this I think and it might actually be quite a nice thing for people

spk_0 just to remind themselves it feels like when you offer people training it's because they're lacking

spk_0 in some skill in something in fact everybody has that skill and it's just being reminded that's

spk_0 the time that you need to use it and things like that and I'm sure people do already without even

spk_0 having to be told but it would make I think the junior demonstrators feel that they're in safer

spk_0 hands it would make the undergraduates feel like they're in safer hands and as a young woman

spk_0 starting her career it would make me feel like I'm in safer hands if I know the colleagues that

spk_0 if I'm a module leader now I am often having to coordinate men that are older than me

spk_0 and were my lecturers and it's intimidating and if I knew that they specifically had to do that

spk_0 they might have done it a few years ago but knowing that they've done it now would make me feel

spk_0 a lot safer in talking to them about it and being like oh that student just keep an eye on them

spk_0 whereas at the moment it feels like if I had it's a little bit more cagey but yeah it would stop

spk_0 there being sometimes you know there are academics that maybe might be more receptive to talking about

spk_0 it and some that are less receptive but they might be if you have a conversation with them but

spk_0 it's knowing who to talk to and you need to kind of target conversations that I talk to a lot of

spk_0 my colleagues that are of a similar age to me whether that be period having or not I'm comfortable

spk_0 talking it's generally if they're kind of a similar age or their female they're the people that

spk_0 I've had these conversations with I haven't really broached the topic with anybody I work with

spk_0 who is kind of on the Venn diagram furthest away from me demographically and again not because of

spk_0 them but because they are probably the people that I see as being less open to talking about it

spk_0 because they won't have experienced it or have same life experiences as me most different to me

spk_0 so much of this could just be integrated into other trainings as well you know when you're doing

spk_0 your support in your students training be like here are some other things you can think about that

spk_0 maybe we haven't put in the training before like menstrual health or you know if they're struggling

spk_0 with some other things I think that that it can also go into stuff that's already there and it could

spk_0 just be a slide or two and it doesn't have to be much but it's just making them aware that that

spk_0 is something they could just slip in there so we do have some things in place so things like we have

spk_0 learning modules that staff have to do compulsory we have a data protection which happens we have

spk_0 it once a year you have to do your data protection quizzes and read all the information and you have

spk_0 to score above 80 whatever percent to pass and we have it for I recently did one on kind of

spk_0 suicide prevention and mental health and things like that which is really good to see that sort of

spk_0 conversation becoming more visible for staff members but so far I might be wrong but I don't

spk_0 think I've got a compulsory one about mental health specifically so it would be really nice to see

spk_0 some sort of compulsory training for anybody that is student facing on specifically menstrual health

spk_0 at any stage of your career so what is it like for an undergraduate experiencing this what is

spk_0 it like for a postgraduate experiences and what is it like for a staff member experience this because

spk_0 students don't always see it in reverse of oh my lecturer does this too so it is important to be

spk_0 aware of all of those aspects and I think there is a lot of complexity as you've discovered through

spk_0 doing this many podcast episodes everybody has a different experience with it which means

spk_0 training is all the more important and it might have an optional training module somewhere that

spk_0 people that are so inclined can go and do but making that compulsory before you start teaching

spk_0 I think would be really valuable and it's not just menstrual health there's all sorts of different

spk_0 things that might be suggested but it's making I guess people aware that they could suggest things

spk_0 as required learning I I'm sure there's someone I could talk to and be like can we have this please

spk_0 and they would say yes absolutely this is a really good idea but until this moment even I hadn't

spk_0 even had that as a thought pop into my head I'm just like oh there there must be older people with

spk_0 more experience that no better than me and they've already deemed this as not a good I like

spk_0 not a thing that's required and therefore why should I suggest it but then maybe needs to be a

spk_0 do you have any suggestions for things that people might need upcoming to people in the right

spk_0 place it's like education track people who know what students are going slightly more student

spk_0 facing and having that open if you've got anything to suggest as required learning suggest it now

spk_0 yeah and I feel like the experience is so different for everyone and even just listening to the

spk_0 other episodes about people talking about endometriosis I personally have a period but I don't

spk_0 know about certain things and I would really benefit from just learning more about it because you just

spk_0 and about the men and poor and things you just don't hear about it enough and it should be

spk_0 you know bought up more and we could be our own worst enemies I mean it sounds really kind of

spk_0 virtuous talking about it like I'm an expert in having a period through virtue of having a period but

spk_0 that is not the case and sometimes you can come across people that are like oh well I deal with it too

spk_0 so you should be fine but like you say it's it's it's so particular to a certain person that

spk_0 sensitivity training for even people that have periods is important it shouldn't just be aimed at

spk_0 the people that don't have that experience it should be just as targeted towards people that do

spk_0 because knowledge is power right Jenny do you have any questions that you would like to ask us

spk_0 for me I'm always second-guessing myself at this stage in my career because I want to be

spk_0 there's always feels like there's the right thing to do I always want to be doing the right thing

spk_0 but it's hard to know now because it's so different to when I was an undergrad even though that

spk_0 wasn't really that long ago in the grand scheme of things from a student perspective as a teacher

spk_0 as a senior demonstrator that they want to trust and talk to how do I make myself more visible and

spk_0 approachable for that respect what how do students really want to be treated post-grad and undergrads

spk_0 what language is it is there some sort of buzz words like you know how this code words for

spk_0 if you're not feeling safe and stuff like that is there a code word that would be more comfortable

spk_0 or would it just be better to be able to just say I'm on my period I don't know how to broach

spk_0 that subject I guess yeah I think personally just making it not a taboo topic being able to say

spk_0 I'm on my period so people don't think oh they're on their period and kind of see that as a slightly

spk_0 not dirty but unsanitary thing and just for the demonstrators as you said earlier to for you to

spk_0 approach us being like are you are you okay and even if it's not digging deep into what is actually

spk_0 going on just showing the kind of compassion and the care I think can make such a big difference

spk_0 because when you're feeling bad sometimes you just don't want to talk about it and you don't

spk_0 really need to do anything other than just take five minutes to just not have to stand on your

spk_0 feet so yeah I think what you've said throughout the episode is very much what we as students would

spk_0 like to see all demonstrators doing and that would make us feel really comfortable that's reassuring

spk_0 yeah I think also as well I think by the sounds of it you are one of these demonstrators that we

spk_0 would be very comfortable to come and talk to and I think that that comes across just in the way

spk_0 that you are and I think that that is something I think that is kind of I don't know how to you

spk_0 can't really teach that I don't know if you can teach it but you know having someone that is

spk_0 approachable friendly that is not just there to be like a safety warden but is someone that's

spk_0 going to first start asking you questions about the chemistry make sure you're getting on with

spk_0 your lab work and you're interested and you're engaged but I think that that comes with the fact that

spk_0 then you feel more comfortable because you have a relationship with these students to then say

spk_0 actually I'm not feeling very well today because they are comfortable with you and they have

spk_0 this nice relationship so I don't think that necessarily like you could do anything more I think

spk_0 maybe what could be more is that making sure that all the junior demonstrators are aware that this

spk_0 is how they should act and this comes with their training and that they are expected to engage and

spk_0 have conversations and you know build these relationships with the students because that's how the

spk_0 students feel comfortable to tell them about you know any variety of things it makes them tell

spk_0 you about safety things much easier because they're not embarrassed to do that because they have

spk_0 comfortable with you so it's not even just a kind of yeah something that would benefit from people

spk_0 who are in the period not feeling very well but as I said like I don't think you need to necessarily

spk_0 yeah worry about that at all when you mention how you actually try and learn more about your students

spk_0 and get to know that I think that makes such a big difference because when you see your demonstrate

spk_0 having an actual interest in you and seeing you is not just one of their students it's so important

spk_0 because then I feel more comfortable asking just silly questions as well because in chemistry it

spk_0 can be quite dangerous with chemicals and sometimes you're a bit embarrassed to ask because you feel

spk_0 like maybe I'm supposed to know this I've been doing this for two years but when someone shows

spk_0 that kind of genuine interest in you as a student I think it makes it a lot easier and I think

spk_0 Charlie did that for me when I was in my first year she actually chatted to us and got to know us

spk_0 and that's what made it really easy yeah so I feel like you're doing all the right things

spk_0 well that's reassuring to know and I hadn't actually thought about it from that perspective of

spk_0 actually building relationship with them through talking about the chemistry and making them feel

spk_0 comfortable with that being a role that is played in that even just having conversations

spk_0 and and and oh I'm not sure that's a really good question and all that sort of conversation you have

spk_0 being part of that relationship you're building and I think that's a really interesting thing

spk_0 that I'm going to take away from this conversation and in that vein I guess it's very easy to do

spk_0 that in the lab because you're there with the students and doing stuff I guess it's harder to do

spk_0 that when people are being examined or having to do their summatives and stuff like that which

spk_0 may be by themselves or I know exams are a big thing when you're on your period and then it comes

spk_0 on the day of your exam and you've got a brain fog, I've got this all going on and there isn't

spk_0 necessarily you've just got the invitulator there right so you don't have that relationship with them

spk_0 how do you tackle that what would you guys do in that situation would you come and find someone

spk_0 say like me that you know you can talk to about that and see or does there need to be I guess

spk_0 something easier yeah we were we've been talking about this a bit recently within the group

spk_0 of having some defined exam guidelines for mental health so where it says you know you you can take

spk_0 these things into the exam because we still don't know if we're allowed to take sanitary showers

spk_0 and stuff like that into the exam we would like to be able to know we know that we can probably

spk_0 go and get them from our bag but that's an extra process that sometimes that isn't even allowed

spk_0 because you can't go and get you might be getting notes out you know all this kind of thing

spk_0 and that's like important to know and medicine so can we have them on the desk like in a clear bag

spk_0 for beforehand would be good to know the good to be written out and told to us also I think having

spk_0 menstrual supplies in all the toilets so that if this is not allowed which it might not be that

spk_0 there is a kind of back up there and also we talked about this bit in series one but having

spk_0 some of this training a bit like what we've been talking about for the invigilators as well so they

spk_0 know that things to look out for because that's also really important. Monami I think has a pretty

spk_0 bad experience herself in this situation and yeah you can maybe say a bit on that. Yeah I feel like

spk_0 I was comfortable enough to just there was a female invigilator so I just went to her and said

spk_0 I kind of feel like I might faint I might I feel quite horrible so I told her if you see me like

spk_0 on the table me like can you just make sure but yeah I feel like I was lucky enough to feel like that

spk_0 but maybe if they were all male invigilators that looked a bit scary I might not have felt like

spk_0 that so maybe having someone I guess just that is approachable. Yeah I think the guidelines would

spk_0 be good and I'm gonna take that away and make sure that that's in place for us I think yeah.

spk_0 So thank you so much Jenny for coming down and for traveling all the way it's been really great

spk_0 conversation and I've really enjoyed listening to the other side of the story. In season one we had

spk_0 a lot of our experiences as students in labs and tutorials and lectures but hearing it from

spk_0 your side as someone who works in this in this area I think was great and also made us think about

spk_0 oh it's actually not us not just us that are also dealing with these problems but also staff members

spk_0 as well so thank you so much and I think that will be great to see what you can do in the future

spk_0 because I'm really excited about that. So just to bring the end of season two of periodically

spk_0 when I say a huge thank you to every one of our guests it's been involved. Thank you especially

spk_0 for Jenny for being here today but yes if you'd like to hear more about what's coming next for

spk_0 periodically then please follow us on our social media at periodically underscore OX and yeah we hope

spk_0 to see you soon. Again we'd like to thank the RSC Inclusion and Diversity Fund the University of

spk_0 Oxford Chemistry Department and the EPSRC funded Oxide CFM DCDT for supporting the podcast.

The Early Career Perspective

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