True Crime
The Doomsday Murders
In this episode of The Doomsday Murders, host Janice Morgan revisits the chilling case of Lori and Chad Daybell, whose lives spiraled into a web of conspiracy, cult beliefs, and tragedy. As Lori faces...
The Doomsday Murders
True Crime •
0:00 / 0:00
Interactive Transcript
spk_0
Hey listeners, Chelsea here. I'm a producer on this show and I'm in your ears today to share some exciting changes coming to the feed.
spk_0
Rest assured, you're still going to hear the most interesting true crime stories from all around the world, backed by the research you've come to expect.
spk_0
But very soon we'll be introducing a new host to all of you. It's someone who shares our obsession with true crime in the criminal mind, a dynamic storyteller with a perspective we think you're really going to love.
spk_0
And before we launch into this next evolution, we wanted to take a beat and revisit some of your favorite stories from the past eight years.
spk_0
Episodes that reflect the journey this show has taken while we get ready for something new.
spk_0
Today we're returning to the case of Chad and Lori Daybell.
spk_0
Every once in a while a story we covered collided directly with headlines.
spk_0
And as we were recording this episode, Lori herself was about to stand trial.
spk_0
Enjoy.
spk_0
This episode includes discussions of gun violence, dismemberment, child death and murder. Consider this when deciding how and when you'll listen.
spk_0
It's January 2020 and newlywed's Lori and Chad Daybell lounge by a tranquil pool in swimsuits.
spk_0
After months of planning, they've treated snowy Idaho for the sunny Hawaii and island of Kauai.
spk_0
It would almost be the portrait of Marital Bliss, except for a few details.
spk_0
One, Chad's first wife Tammy died in her sleep two weeks before he married Lori.
spk_0
Two, Lori's previous husband Charles was shot under mysterious circumstances in her home last summer.
spk_0
Three, her youngest children, 16-year-old Tiley and seven-year-old JJ have been missing for four months.
spk_0
And authorities say Lori refuses to help them with their search.
spk_0
Believing the children's lives are in danger, an Idaho judge orders Lori to bring them to the Department of Health and Welfare and prove they're safe.
spk_0
When she's served with these court documents, poolside, she seems unbothered and she never shows up with Tiley or JJ.
spk_0
From that point on, the case explodes. Tiley and JJ's disappearance hits national news.
spk_0
The public learns about several mysterious attacks and deaths connected to Lori and Chad and strange buzzwords start to pop up in the media, like reincarnation, cult,
spk_0
possessions, zombies, all things Lori and Chad Debel allegedly believe in that led them to be found guilty of an unthinkable crime.
spk_0
Welcome to Serial Killers, a Spotify podcast. Every Monday we bring you the true crime stories that stand out.
spk_0
I'm Janice Morgan. You might recognize me as the voice behind the investigative docuseries broken and the true crime podcast Fear Thy Neighbor.
spk_0
I'll be your host for the next few weeks and I am thrilled to be here. Be sure to check us out on Instagram at Serial Killers Podcast because we'd love to hear from you.
spk_0
If you're listening on the Spotify app, swipe up and give us your thoughts.
spk_0
Today we'll be talking to author and retired criminal defense attorney Lori Hellis, who spent years researching the case for her new book Children of Darkness and Light, Lori Valo and Chad Debel, a story of murderous faith.
spk_0
We're so thrilled she could join us today.
spk_0
As Lori Debel heads into her first of two trials in Arizona, it's important to note that she pleaded not guilty to all charges.
spk_0
Stay with us.
spk_0
If you're obsessed with true crime, cults, or conspiracy theories, I've got the perfect show for you.
spk_0
Conspiracy theories, cults, and crimes is a new weekly podcast from Crime House and Pave Studios that dives into the darkest corners of human behavior.
spk_0
Every Wednesday we uncover the true stories behind the world's most shocking crimes, deadly ideologies, and secret plots.
spk_0
Follow conspiracy theories, cults, and crimes on Spotify.
spk_0
In 2013, Lori is years away from meeting Chad Debel.
spk_0
She lives in Arizona with her fourth husband Charles Valo, and after nine years together, he seems like the rock Lori's been looking for.
spk_0
He's a financial planner, successful enough to support Lori and her two children from previous marriages, including her daughter, Tiley.
spk_0
And because Lori is a devout member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Charles has converted to Mormonism.
spk_0
From the outside, Lori looks like the perfect wife and mom.
spk_0
It's the reason Kay Woodcock trusts the Valos to take good care of her grandson.
spk_0
You see, Kay is Charles's sister. She's been doing her best to look after the baby, a child with special needs, but she believes he'll thrive in Lori and Charles's home.
spk_0
And for a long time, she's right.
spk_0
So the Valos formally adopt him and name him Joshua Jackson or JJ.
spk_0
Over the next six years, something changes in Lori.
spk_0
It's gradual, almost unnoticeable at first, but she grows more interested in neo-fundamentalist beliefs.
spk_0
Most people, when they think about fundamentalist Mormons, think about the FLDS, the community that's up on the Utah Arizona border.
spk_0
And they're the group that you see wearing the prairie skirts and the very stylized hairdos and practicing polygamy.
spk_0
That's Lori Hallis, author of Children of Darkness and Light, a book that tracks Lori and Chad Debel's relationship, crimes and belief system.
spk_0
We're going to refer to Lori Hallis by her last name, so things don't get confusing between the two Lori's.
spk_0
So when people think about the fundamentalist LDS church, that's really what their picture is.
spk_0
But there is another faction. And I always sort of describe it as like Russian nesting dolls, kind of one inside the other.
spk_0
Because there is definitely a core group of fundamentalists who are really embedded in the mainstream church.
spk_0
And those are the Chad Debel's.
spk_0
And what they're attempting to do is to really undo a lot of the liberalization and modernization of the LDS church over the years.
spk_0
About a year before adopting JJ, Lori became engrossed in subjects like near-death experiences in Doomsday.
spk_0
She gets more interested in the quote end times, which as Hallis explains, isn't unheard of given Lori's Mormon upbringing.
spk_0
I mean, it's in their name. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day sayings.
spk_0
They believe that we are in the latter days that Jesus Christ is going to come back, that the book of revelations is going to be fulfilled.
spk_0
But Lori tends to take things a step further. By 2018, she's attending survivalist classes and listening to Doomsday podcasts because she wants to be ready for the end times, physically and spiritually.
spk_0
Then she meets an author named Chad Debel.
spk_0
In October 2018, Lori goes to a Doomsday Prepper conference where Chad is one of the speakers.
spk_0
She already knows who he is. She's read his books and one friend considers Lori a Chad Debel superfan.
spk_0
Like Lori, Chad is a devout member of the mainstream LDS church who harbors not so mainstream neo-fundamentalist ideas.
spk_0
He will those beliefs throughout his books, some of which he marketed as fiction and others nonfiction.
spk_0
But all of his writing, he claims, is based on his life and his visions because he says he can communicate beyond the veil.
spk_0
The LDS Church preaches the idea of pre-mortal life, that people existed with God before being born here on earth.
spk_0
But they say, most people can't recall this time before they were born thanks to the veil, a gift bestowed by God that causes them to forget their pre-existence.
spk_0
Chad tends to take mainstream ideas and put his own spin on them. In his autobiography, he says that he had near-death experiences that tore through his veil.
spk_0
Chad claimed that he was a visionary, that he could see beyond the veil, that he could talk to people in heaven, and that he had this line of communication.
spk_0
And so he was communicating with everyone else with the direction he was getting from heaven.
spk_0
At the Prepper conference, Chad is hawking his books at a booth when he locks eyes with Lori, a bubbly, outgoing former cheerleader who adores his work.
spk_0
Once they got to talking, he thinks he's heard this woman's voice and even seen her face before. He even feels like they've been in love before.
spk_0
That night, he can't sleep. He's too smitten with Lori, and he can't ignore the attraction between them, which he later describes as, quote, the scientific phenomenon known as loinfire.
spk_0
To Chad, it can only mean one thing. He tells Lori they knew each other in a previous life.
spk_0
So initially, Chad told Lori that they had been married to one another in the time of Jesus, and that they had been friends and followers of Jesus, and that Chad had been James the Just.
spk_0
Biblical scholars describe James as a brother or cousin of Jesus. Whether it's a vision or a pickup line, it works.
spk_0
Lori shares Chad's views on the type of reincarnation they call multiple mortal probations, the idea that a soul can make several trips between heaven and earth.
spk_0
Things move quickly as they text and talk constantly. The following month, they meet in secret at a temple where Chad uses his authority to perform a ceiling ceremony, cementing their relationship for all of eternity, even though they're both legally married to other people.
spk_0
Lori is still with Charles, and Chad has been married to his wife Tammy for 29 years.
spk_0
But Chad becomes more than Lori's spiritual partner. He becomes her prophet. He tells her she's a literal goddess and announces he's had a new vision of the future.
spk_0
The end times are coming, he says, soon, and it's up to the two of them to gather 144,000 faithful chosen followers and lead them to salvation together.
spk_0
He convinced her that they had this mission that they needed to fulfill. So throughout the time that they're espousing this information, they're going to people that they know and say, we think you're part of the 144,000.
spk_0
Lori reaches out to friends and family members. She thinks they're among the chosen and tells them about Chad's visions.
spk_0
She also claims new powers of her own telling one of her brothers that she no longer needs food or sleep.
spk_0
Well, they were very charismatic, but they looked for people who had certain vulnerabilities.
spk_0
And so when they were reaching out to people, they were looking for people who felt like they were on the fringes and reaching out to them and saying, you're special.
spk_0
And you're not on the fringes because you're odd. You're on the fringes because you're more enlightened than everybody else around you. You're special.
spk_0
And that was the way that they manipulated people.
spk_0
Even as they gather a small group of followers who support their mission, Lori and Chad run into a problem.
spk_0
According to Chad, an evil spirit has taken over the body of someone in Lori's family, her real husband, Charles Valo.
spk_0
By early 2019, Lori's marriage to her actual husband, Charles is strained.
spk_0
He has noticed her growing interest in fringe ideas for some time, but for the most part, they were still happy until Lori met Chad Daybell.
spk_0
On January 31, Charles is in Houston finishing up a work trip and preparing to head home to Arizona.
spk_0
At the airport, he learns someone has canceled his plane ticket.
spk_0
He manages to fly back anyway, only to discover his truck isn't in the airport parking lot where he left it.
spk_0
When he finally makes it home, Lori is nowhere to be found and won't answer her phone.
spk_0
Despite the rough patch and his marriage, Charles still seems shocked by this turn of events, but considering the bizarre things his wife has been saying lately,
spk_0
including allegedly threatening to murder him, he decides to call the police.
spk_0
After all, Tiley and JJ are also gone.
spk_0
It's night time when officers respond to Charles and Lori's house.
spk_0
Charles tells them he fears for his children's safety because of Lori's religious beliefs.
spk_0
He says Lori claimed she was a god, and that Doomsday would arrive on July 21, 2020.
spk_0
She also accused him of being somebody called Nick or Ned Schneider and reportedly gave him a warning.
spk_0
According to paperwork later filed by Charles, Lori said he was, quote, in her way, and he claimed she threatened to murder him if he interfered with her plans.
spk_0
Charles asks the officers to serve Lori with a court-ordered mental health evaluation.
spk_0
When she arrives at the police station, she disarms everyone with her characteristic smile and charm.
spk_0
She agrees to a cursory screening at the local mental health clinic, which determines she's not in need of further holding or assessment.
spk_0
This puts even more strain on their marriage.
spk_0
Charles files for divorce and takes JJ to Houston for a while.
spk_0
They briefly attempt a reconciliation that spring.
spk_0
Later, a local news outlet obtains emails from Charles's account to his live insurance company.
spk_0
In them, he accuses Lori of attempting to change the password to his account during this time.
spk_0
Ultimately, it doesn't work out between the vallows and they remain estranged, but they don't divorce.
spk_0
Keep in mind, Lori says this man isn't really Charles anymore.
spk_0
That he's some kind of dark entity who's taken over his body.
spk_0
Friends later say Lori was likely told these things by Chad Debel.
spk_0
The idea of Satan or evil spirit sent to derail mankind exists within the mainstream LDS church and in other religions.
spk_0
But as Hellis points out, Chad takes these ideas a step further.
spk_0
So what would happen is Chad would say, oh, this person has been taken over by one of those evil demons.
spk_0
What he told people was when a demon takes over a body, it forces that person's soul out into limbo.
spk_0
To determine if a person is aligned with God or Satan, Chad had devised his own convoluted rubric.
spk_0
He categorized people as either light or dark, basically good or bad.
spk_0
From there, he rated people on a sliding scale from 0 to 6 based on how light or how dark they were.
spk_0
For example, Lori's parents were 3's on the light scale and Lori was a 4.3.
spk_0
Meanwhile, two of Lori's axes were 2's or higher on the dark scale.
spk_0
Charles started out as a 3 light, but according to Chad, everyone's ratings could change if something happened, like if they were taken over by a demon or another dark entity.
spk_0
Very slowly people moved from the light to the dark as they lost favorability with Chad.
spk_0
But he did this whole thing where he assigned them numbers because it sounded kind of scientific.
spk_0
It was absolutely his own made up out of thin air.
spk_0
That whole philosophy had absolutely nothing to do with LDS teachings.
spk_0
When Charles was supposedly possessed, he became a dark being, or as some people involved in this story would say, a zombie.
spk_0
Remember when he told police Lori accused him of being someone named Nick or Ned Schneider?
spk_0
That's because Chad gives these dark entities names like Ned or Garrett or Hillary.
spk_0
After Chad claims Charles is possessed, Lori invites a few like-minded friends to an intense prayer circle she hopes will cast the darkness out.
spk_0
Once finished, Chad tells her it worked, but a new, more powerful entity moves in.
spk_0
By July 2019, Lori lives in a new house about 30 minutes outside of Phoenix that Charles rents for her and the kids.
spk_0
He stays in Houston, but makes trips back and forth to visit and care for JJ.
spk_0
That's what he's doing on July 11th when he arrives at Lori's house to drive JJ to school.
spk_0
He's also planning an intervention for Lori and is flying in one of her brothers Adam is back up.
spk_0
But at some point, another member of Lori's family finds out and tips are off.
spk_0
When Charles arrives to pick up JJ, he's met by Lori's other brother Alex Cox.
spk_0
He's an aspiring stand-up comedian and he's always been protective of his little sister.
spk_0
Now that he's one of Chad and Lori's followers, that's especially true.
spk_0
Chad even tells Alex it's his personal mission to protect her.
spk_0
Alex Cox had an auto accident at age 16 and had a traumatic brain injury.
spk_0
And a lot of the family always described him as never having grown beyond that age 16.
spk_0
Didn't have a lot of impulse control.
spk_0
I mean, he certainly was their soldier throughout the entire time that Lori knew Chad David.
spk_0
It's Alex who dials 911 that morning and reports, quote, I got in a fight with my brother-in-law and I shot him in self-defense.
spk_0
The dispatcher instructs Alex to perform CPR until help arrives, but Charles dies.
spk_0
Alex tells investigators that earlier that morning, Lori and Charles got into a heated argument.
spk_0
Tiley came into the room holding a bat as if to back up her mom, but Charles snatched it from her hands.
spk_0
That's when Alex says Charles took a swing hitting him in the back of his head as Lori fled with Tiley and JJ.
spk_0
Alex grabbed his pistol from the room where he was staying, but Charles when it stopped advancing on him.
spk_0
So Alex shot twice in self-defense, he says.
spk_0
Then he called 911 just minutes later.
spk_0
There is a lack of clarity surrounding what happened that morning.
spk_0
Before we get into it, it's important to note that as of this recording, Lori is still facing charges of conspiracy and Charles is shooting.
spk_0
She has pled not guilty.
spk_0
One conflicting report has to do with where Lori was when Charles was shot.
spk_0
Alex tells police Lori had already left before he shot Charles, but Lori tells police she was still inside the house.
spk_0
She just didn't see it happen.
spk_0
She then leaves the house. She's in Charles's rental car.
spk_0
She drives away. She has Charles's phone with her.
spk_0
According to evidence released by the Chandler Police Department, 43 minutes passed between the time Alex shot Charles and the time he called 911.
spk_0
Phone records indicate that Alex's first call wasn't to emergency services. It was to Lori.
spk_0
They're talking and texting, and of course the medical examiners report that the second shot when Alex shot, he shot Charles, Charles fell down.
spk_0
And then the second shot he was standing at Charles's feet and fired kind of execution style right into his heart.
spk_0
The medical examiner determines where Alex was standing when the second shot was fired based on the trajectory of the bullet.
spk_0
And when paramedics arrive at the scene and begin chest compressions, it's clear from the blood and Charles's lungs that Alex never attempted CPR.
spk_0
Now Charles is gone and Lori is sealed to Chad for all eternity.
spk_0
But as Lori will remind Chad many times, they still can't be together in the mortal realm.
spk_0
Chad is still married to Tammy.
spk_0
Lori seems to be waiting in the wings, relocating from Arizona to Rexburg, Idaho, where Chad and Tammy live.
spk_0
I think Tammy Debel sometimes is the overlooked victim in this case.
spk_0
Now there is every indication that she bought into Chad's belief system.
spk_0
But she was a devoted mother. She was a devoted librarian at the school.
spk_0
She was very involved in her community, very involved in her church.
spk_0
She was in every way a kind motherly presence in the community and a good neighbor.
spk_0
And she certainly did not deserve what happened to her.
spk_0
In text messages, Chad laments this separation between he and Lori.
spk_0
He even likened his ordeal to that of another powerful and misunderstood person.
spk_0
Harry Potter. He tells her, quote, every few weeks I get to escape and have amazing adventures with my goddess lover.
spk_0
But then I have to return to my place under the stairs feeling trapped.
spk_0
Chad isn't the only one getting caught up in fantastical books.
spk_0
Before she met Chad, she was totally taken by Stephanie Myers Twilight series.
spk_0
I mean, they're young adult books. But to her, it completely played in to her really naive idea of romantic love.
spk_0
And I think Chad was very much the same.
spk_0
That's a tumble Chad urges Tammy to visit her family in Utah, which may or may not be because he's had another premonition.
spk_0
That Tammy will die in a car accident.
spk_0
But Tammy survives the trip.
spk_0
The following month on October 5, Chad messages Lori to say he's figured out Tammy has been taken over by a level three demon he calls Viola.
spk_0
Because Chad says he can communicate beyond the veil, he adds that he's reached out to the real Tammy.
spk_0
And she's instructed him to get Viola out. And according to Chad, when a demon takes over a body, it forces that person's soul out into limbo.
spk_0
And the only way to get rid of the demon is to kill the body is to remove the ability of the demon to have this vessel to live in.
spk_0
On the morning of October 19, it's Chad's turn to call 911.
spk_0
He reports that when he woke up that morning, Tammy had fallen halfway off the bed.
spk_0
And as he tried to pick her up, he realized she'd passed away in her sleep.
spk_0
He adds she'd been feeling sick the night before.
spk_0
He requests to forego an autopsy. And Tammy is buried just three days later.
spk_0
Then exactly two weeks after that, Chad and Lori exchange wedding rings on a beach in Hawaii.
spk_0
Rings they had ordered from Amazon while Tammy was still alive.
spk_0
Lori's brother Alex also gets married to a woman named Zulema he'd recently met through Lori and Chad.
spk_0
But Alex's wedded bliss is short lived.
spk_0
The LDS Church believes that you cannot be exalted to the highest level of heaven if you're not married.
spk_0
And so he started making sure that everybody was married off.
spk_0
But they all had to be married off to people who shared their beliefs.
spk_0
And so he convinced Zulema pastanas to marry Lori's brother Alex.
spk_0
And they were married about two weeks before Alex died.
spk_0
The medical examiner later rules that Alex died of natural causes, a blood clot in his lungs.
spk_0
But before that official ruling is released, some people are suspicious about the timing of Alex's death.
spk_0
For one thing, it occurs the day after an order comes down to exume Tammy's body so an autopsy can be performed.
spk_0
Zulema asks Alex if he was involved in Tammy's death and he assures her no.
spk_0
But he also says he thinks he's becoming Lori and Chad's fall guy.
spk_0
She presses for more information, but Alex doesn't answer.
spk_0
Then investigators come to realize that both JJ and his older sister Tyley are missing.
spk_0
And they have been missing for a while.
spk_0
Tyley was last seen on September 8th on a family trip to Yellowstone.
spk_0
And JJ hasn't been seen since September 22nd when Lori's friend Melanie saw him at his house.
spk_0
As the search for Tyley and JJ wears on for several months, Melanie tells investigators something that's been troubling her, something that happened the day before JJ disappeared.
spk_0
Lori told her the little boy was no longer her son.
spk_0
Like Tammy and Charles before her, JJ had been possessed by a dark entity.
spk_0
By now, authorities know Tyley and JJ were last seen alive in September.
spk_0
At the beginning of this episode, we talked about Lori's unnervingly cool attitude during the time her children are missing.
spk_0
As police investigate, there's also growing concern over Lori's attitude in the weeks leading up to their disappearances.
spk_0
I understood that Tyley had been sort of Lori's mini-me.
spk_0
Tyley and Lori had a close mother-daughter relationship until Tyley hit her teenage years.
spk_0
And I think it was very difficult for Lori to allow Tyley to become her own person.
spk_0
And Tyley became sort of a outspoken kind of teenager.
spk_0
And I think that was really hard for Lori to stomach because the little mini-me that she had been for so long suddenly was her own person.
spk_0
I think that was very difficult.
spk_0
But you know, the people who knew Tyley, her friends, her girlfriends, had such a different picture of her.
spk_0
She was such a dynamic person.
spk_0
She loved to sing. She was very outgoing. She was fun.
spk_0
It's not uncommon for people to change as we leave childhood behind.
spk_0
But Lori Debel believes there's a supernatural explanation for Tyley's behavior.
spk_0
Suddenly, Tyley was possessed by a demon because she was hard to handle as a teenager and she didn't like Chad and she didn't like what her mom was doing.
spk_0
So then suddenly she was taken over by a demon named Hillary.
spk_0
Tyley disappears shortly after that family trip to Yellowstone National Park we mentioned.
spk_0
Photo show her smiling, holding her brother in her arms.
spk_0
Investigators believe she returned to Rexburg with her family on the evening of September 8th and that she was dead by the following day.
spk_0
Detectives are able to use cell phone data to track Lori Chad and Alex's movements over the next few weeks.
spk_0
On the night of the 8th after their trip, Alex returns to Lori's twice.
spk_0
Once he makes a quick trip to a gas station and stays at Lori's until 11.44pm.
spk_0
He then drives home and comes back to her place in the early hours of September 9th.
spk_0
He's there from 242 to 3.37am.
spk_0
Later that morning, Alex goes to the Debel property after Tammy leaves for work and he's there for a little over two hours.
spk_0
That same day, Chad texts Tammy to tell her he burned some debris in their fire pit and buried a raccoon in their yard.
spk_0
JJ, who is still alive remains with Lori.
spk_0
There's no question that JJ was a challenging kid.
spk_0
I mean, he had some disabilities, but anybody who knew him also said that he was the most loving,
spk_0
very loving, joyful kind of a kid.
spk_0
There's no question raising him was a challenge, but everybody who knew Lori said she was really good at it.
spk_0
I think she finally just the mask cracked.
spk_0
And when she came to believe that she had this higher mission, then that was justification for her to just say, I'm done with him.
spk_0
Alex returns to Chad's property in the morning of September 23rd, the day after JJ was last seen alive.
spk_0
This time, he doesn't stay very long, but Chad is there too.
spk_0
Detectives later use cell phone data to confirm that much.
spk_0
About five months later, police arrest Lori and Hawaii on February 20th, 2020.
spk_0
They extradite her to Idaho and charge her on multiple counts, including abandonment, but they still don't know where her children are.
spk_0
Chad also leaves Hawaii, moving back into the home he once shared with Tammy.
spk_0
He's still there on June 9th when authorities show up at his door with a search warrant.
spk_0
In one area of his property in the shade of what will become known as JJ's tree, they uncovered the boy's body wrapped in a garbage bag.
spk_0
And another part of the yard, they locate Tiley's burned and dismembered remains.
spk_0
Her DNA is found on tools still hanging in a shed.
spk_0
Chad makes an attempt to flee in his vehicle, but he doesn't get far before he stopped and taken into custody.
spk_0
In Idaho, Lori and Chad face multiple murder charges in connection to Tiley, JJ and Tammy's deaths.
spk_0
Tammy's autopsy revealed that she hadn't died of natural causes. She was asphyxicated.
spk_0
Lori's case moves ahead first, but before opening arguments are made, she spends 10 months in a state psychiatric hospital to ensure she's competent to stand trial.
spk_0
Later, her diagnosis will be revealed to the public.
spk_0
An unspecific personality disorder with histrionic and narcissistic features, coupled with hyperreligiosity.
spk_0
In May 2023, Lori is convicted of first-degree murder and conspiracy to murder Tiley and JJ, as well as conspiracy to murder Tammy.
spk_0
Lori's attorney gets the death penalty taken off the table, and she sentenced to life imprisonment.
spk_0
The same isn't true for Chad. When he's found guilty on three counts of first-degree murder and three counts of conspiracy to murder, he sentenced to death.
spk_0
As of the recording of this episode, Lori faces more charges in Arizona across two cases. She has pleaded not guilty in both.
spk_0
First, as we mentioned, she's accused of conspiring in the death of her fourth husband, Charles Valo, and second, the attempted shooting of a man named Brandon Boudreau.
spk_0
Back in October 2019, an assailant in a green Jeep opened fire on Brandon outside his home.
spk_0
He missed and sped away, but not before Brandon registered who the person was.
spk_0
He says it was Alex Cox driving Tiley's Jeep.
spk_0
Brandon is the ex-husband of Lori and Alex's niece, who is counted among Chad's followers.
spk_0
One of the lingering questions in this story is, did Lori and Chad really believe everything they told their followers?
spk_0
Did they kill Tammy, Tiley, and JJ because they thought their victims were possessed and standing in the way of a divine mission? Or was their motive something simpler?
spk_0
One theory is that they just wanted to be together unburdened by children.
spk_0
We also know that they benefited monetarily.
spk_0
Lori collected JJ's Social Security checks after his death, and Chad received $430,000 from Tammy's life insurance policy.
spk_0
We asked Lori Hallis, who spent years researching this case, what she thinks.
spk_0
Chad had this sense of wanting to be important. He was grandiose. He was special.
spk_0
And Lori also had some of those needs as well, and so he sort of fed into her needs.
spk_0
Now, there is no question that Lori has religious delusions, and that she still, to this day right now, believes with her whole being those religious delusions.
spk_0
Before Lori was sentenced to life imprisonment, she told the court she'd spoken with Tiley and JJ since their deaths, that she too has an ability to communicate beyond the veil, and she insisted her children are happy.
spk_0
I don't think there's any one particular thing that you can say, oh, this is the thing that convinces me that they believe fully.
spk_0
But certainly Lori's allocation at her sentencing, it's very clear on her side that she believed.
spk_0
I think some of the most telling evidence that came at Chad's trial, where the prison phone calls that he had with her, where he's talking about, oh, I texted Ray today.
spk_0
Well, that was what they called Alex Cox, and Alex Cox was dead. And so he reading between the lines, you realize he's talking to her about he's communicating with Alex Cox in heaven.
spk_0
Investigators and prosecutors seem to agree money wasn't the only motive.
spk_0
Alice says those who think Lori doesn't really buy these French beliefs, see a woman who is able to carry on with her day-to-day life.
spk_0
But this treat isn't totally unheard of for someone with a delusional disorder.
spk_0
So a person can be fully functional and still be absolutely rooted in their delusion. And that's what's going on with Lori.
spk_0
She absolutely believes Chad is a prophet, she is exalted, they have been called to lead the 144,000.
spk_0
She absolutely believes that whatever this is is a trial that was sent by God, that the end days are coming and when the end days coming, she's going to, you know, like the Apostle Paul, the walls of the prison are going to fall down and she's going to be released.
spk_0
By the time this episode releases, Lori's trial in the Charles Valo case may be underway.
spk_0
She's been given the okay to represent herself. The Brandon Boudreau case will be tried later and we'll be watching both to see what happens.
spk_0
Thanks for tuning into serial killers, Spotify podcast. We'd like to thank author Lori Hallis for her time and expertise on this case.
spk_0
Please be sure to check out her book Children of Darkness and Light at the link in the show description. Her work and interview were extremely helpful to our research. She also has a YouTube channel called Children of Darkness and Light.
spk_0
Stay safe out there.
spk_0
This episode was written and produced by Mickey Taylor, edited by Connor Sanson, fact checked by Lori Siegel, sound designed by Alex Button, and video editing by Spencer Howard.
spk_0
I'm your host, Juni Smurgen.