STL351: Woodworking From UK to the USA

Interactive Transcript

spk_0 Welcome to Shop Talk Live episode number 351.

spk_0 Today I'm joined by Mike Peckvitch and Phil Hubert and we get to hear all about their

spk_0 woodworking tour of England.

spk_0 Mike and Phil wandered over across the pond to Great Britain and did basically a woodworking

spk_0 vacation tour with 25 woodworkers checking out museums and woodworking schools and all

spk_0 sorts of interesting things.

spk_0 It was honestly really great to hear about this from them and how much fun they had and

spk_0 it was just an eye-opening experience for them and honestly for me to hear about their

spk_0 trip.

spk_0 So I think you're going to enjoy it.

spk_0 Of course we talk a little bit about the upcoming woodworking in America and if you

spk_0 don't have tickets to woodworking in America there's still time.

spk_0 It's coming up next week in Des Moines, Iowa and if you don't want to sit in on the classes

spk_0 and everything there are vendor area tickets available.

spk_0 I think it's like $25 a day.

spk_0 You can check out all of the great vendors that are in the vendor area and their demonstrations

spk_0 and products and you know we'll all be hanging out in their throughout the day as well.

spk_0 So stop by, say hey and have a good time.

spk_0 All right we'll see you in Des Moines.

spk_0 Now on with the show.

spk_0 That's stupid crooked picture bothers me every Zoom meeting but I don't notice it until

spk_0 I see it on the camera.

spk_0 You really we just so I think this is how the episode starts and been strung a fashion.

spk_0 We get ready to start recording and Mike was holding a second like it was something very

spk_0 serious and got up and straightened out of picture behind him.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 Are you feeling better now Mike?

spk_0 I'm feeling so much better.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 I totally thought he was adjusting the thermostat or something or close the door or actually

spk_0 none of those.

spk_0 I thought there was an embarrassing picture like on the picture and he was going to he

spk_0 was moving it because it was like oh that was a little that's a little too.

spk_0 Two out there.

spk_0 I was scared yeah.

spk_0 For a podcast and woodworking in my living room.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 What was that?

spk_0 It was just a picture of a gappy joint on a drawer.

spk_0 No evidence.

spk_0 Gentlemen, gentlemen.

spk_0 Has the jet lag wore off?

spk_0 Are we back?

spk_0 No, not really.

spk_0 Phil?

spk_0 Are you also?

spk_0 It was a lot easier for me to come back than it was to go out.

spk_0 Oh really?

spk_0 I think maybe because I was super tired coming back from having just a full week of activities.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 Or just my body is at peace in the central time zone.

spk_0 But so you flew out to I did you fly into Heathrow to London?

spk_0 Yes.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 And so you've got this where like where does everyone on this woodworking tour mean?

spk_0 I'm just I'm picturing Phil running around Heathrow are part looking for people in flannel.

spk_0 That's fair.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 No, we had there are several hotels that are loosely attached to one of the terminals

spk_0 at Heathrow.

spk_0 You walk down a long skywalk and then branching off of that skywalk are three or four hotels.

spk_0 And they had everybody meeting at a specific hotel.

spk_0 So then we met for an opening dinner in the lobby of one of those hotels.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 How many people were on the trip?

spk_0 We had 24 and then was Mike and I and then a tour manager, which I learned is different

spk_0 than a tour guide.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 But there you go.

spk_0 And a bus driver who was freaking awesome.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 And they the tour company has their own coach as they call it.

spk_0 They're based out of the Netherlands.

spk_0 And then in the Netherlands they drive on the right.

spk_0 So they brought the bus over on a ferry and you drive on the left.

spk_0 So she's on the left side of the vehicle in the left lane and her name is Alice and she

spk_0 could weave that bus through what I thought was pretty congested London streets.

spk_0 Like just she was an artist with a coach driving.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 It was amazing.

spk_0 First two days we were in London.

spk_0 There was a subway strike.

spk_0 So there was millions of bikes in the middle of the road and disgruntled people all over

spk_0 the place and traffic jams everywhere.

spk_0 So that was like, yeah.

spk_0 So Alice handled all of that amazingly well.

spk_0 And it just reinforced my hesitation to ever get in a car and drive in England at all.

spk_0

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 Was that bad?

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 It was horrible.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 So I take, are you getting, you have dinner and then chill for a minute, right?

spk_0 And then like what was the first stop?

spk_0 The first stop was the next morning.

spk_0 We went to a place called the Building Crafts College, which is over on the east side of

spk_0 London, kind of near where the 2012 Olympics were.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 So, and this college is in an area that used to be owned by the, like, Carpentry Guild.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 So, like, there's a, there's like a Carpenters, Arms Pub, just a couple of blocks away and all

spk_0 the roads have joinery related names to it in that area.

spk_0 Really?

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 So that was a pretty cool place because they do, how did you describe it, Mike?

spk_0 It was like a real trade focused program that they were running there.

spk_0 Very much.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 So, what were the different disciplines?

spk_0 There was woodworking, I think, primarily focused towards like architectural mill work, restoration.

spk_0 One guy gave a quick demo of like kind of a traditional exterior door, which you think

spk_0 is, oh, rails and styles, tenants and panels.

spk_0 It's like, no, this thing was subtly elegant in its joinery.

spk_0 It was like really smart and really amazing and I wish we could have gotten like an hour

spk_0 long demo on just like laying out door joinery.

spk_0 And the really cool thing is like stone mason's, like, that's a really important thing in

spk_0 terms of new construction and stone and renovation and repair.

spk_0 So they have a whole thing on stone masonry just hitting blocks of granite with the hammer

spk_0 and a chisel.

spk_0 That was amazing.

spk_0 And I think if that would have hit me at the right point in my life, I'd be a stone mason.

spk_0 Like, right on, this would be really cool.

spk_0 So that was neat.

spk_0 I wish we would have gotten a demo there.

spk_0 So this was kind of one of the two schools we saw.

spk_0 The other school was definitely more geared towards kind of high-end studio furniture-ish kind

spk_0 of stuff.

spk_0 And this was geared more towards the trades and it was really nice to see that juxtaposition

spk_0 in terms of training and what the end result is.

spk_0 But no, they're like super serious.

spk_0 We're going to get people jobs.

spk_0 They're going to make decent money.

spk_0 So that was, yeah, really cool to see.

spk_0 Was the school, so the school wasn't owned by the guild or the union or, right?

spk_0 I don't think owned by it, but definitely supported by it.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 And then because the stone mason's or stonework guild was also involved with the school for

spk_0 that part of the program, they would donate Portland stone for the students to work with

spk_0 on their projects and they work with a bunch of other employers, I think, in the area,

spk_0 too, that the employers can hire folk and then send them to the school for, it's like

spk_0 a two-year program.

spk_0 So kind of like a tech college course here, but really immersive in doing stuff.

spk_0 Was the furniture school tied to a program, too?

spk_0 Or was that more like what you would find here that's just like a nonprofit kind of deal?

spk_0 That one, no, it's like tied into King Charles is like a, yeah, it's like, I don't get it.

spk_0 I'm, you know, in terms of how everything is kind of hooked together, but no, the other

spk_0 woodworking school, Snowden school, woodworking run by Nick.

spk_0 What's Nick's last name?

spk_0 Nick right.

spk_0 Nick right, who was really awesome and gave a great tour of the school.

spk_0 So he's spent a lot of time in really high-end kind of studio furniture production shops,

spk_0 and I think a lot of the students coming through here are either have ambitions to go out

spk_0 on their own and set up their own shop or to get placement into more higher-end fine

spk_0 furniture places.

spk_0 And it's kind of cool to see that there is a niche of the population that has an appreciation

spk_0 for that level of work and also the means to be able to afford it.

spk_0 One thing that they were super conscientious of is the origin of the lumber that they were

spk_0 working with and how they're really trying to work with domestic woods.

spk_0 And that seemed to be like a really big part of their mission and what they're doing.

spk_0 And Nick was just assuming that the students already have background in CNC.

spk_0 They're already sort of getting computer training and stuff.

spk_0 So when you come to the school, it's strictly, it isn't just like there is hand-work-envolved

spk_0 hand tools, but it's not just about, hey, let's get all old-timey with old tools.

spk_0 It's like complementary skills to what other people are learning.

spk_0 Mainly, it's like they do a shorter program where the focus is on cutting-hand cut dub

spk_0 tails and doing marketery, which seems to sort of be an odd combination, but it makes sense.

spk_0 And then the longer-form programs they go into furniture design and making original pieces.

spk_0 And very neat.

spk_0 I mean, I would definitely, I could see myself going to that school, but Nick was saying

spk_0 it's really pretty tough to get into.

spk_0 And I was talking to Nick on the phone before we went and he said, now we're really kind

spk_0 of aiming for people who are getting into the trade.

spk_0 Basically, younger people establishing career as opposed to the US.

spk_0 A lot of folks getting involved in woodworking and so on.

spk_0 Free retirement, post-retirement kind of enjoyable thing.

spk_0 And he said, no, that's not really kind of the type of student they're looking for.

spk_0 They want to get someone up and running and making living at it.

spk_0 So I was, he didn't say I was too old, but I kind of got a sense.

spk_0 That's what he implied.

spk_0 So Phil, which one of them was the site of Mike's mind-blowing table saw usage?

spk_0 That was at the Snowden School.

spk_0 Because they had, the school is set up in like an old farmhouse and then a couple of farm

spk_0 buildings nearby.

spk_0 So one building is just a bench room where each of the students in the program has a space,

spk_0 wall rack of hand tools.

spk_0 They do kind of their design work there and some of the tutorial things.

spk_0 And then they had a separate building, which was just a machine room.

spk_0 And kind of had your basic complement of all the machines.

spk_0 Joyner planer, a big table saw, shaper, drill press, bandsaw, miter saw.

spk_0 We're going along and we were standing there.

spk_0 Nick was kind of talking about it and there were a couple of students he was talking about.

spk_0 Because they try to get these students who usually don't have any power tool experience,

spk_0 like using tools right away, just to start to build that comfort and those safe practices.

spk_0 Then Mike asked a question about joinery or jigs or something like that.

spk_0 And Nick kind of looked at us like we had two heads a little bit.

spk_0 He's like, no, this is just a table saw for ripping.

spk_0 Yeah, they have a table saw set up and I think someone said, why don't you have a soft stop?

spk_0 And they said, no.

spk_0 And it was kind of like in a conversation, got around to the fact that no, they're table

spk_0 slots, a single use tool.

spk_0 Like it is literally there to rip boards to width.

spk_0 That's all like they don't do any cross cuts.

spk_0 And there was no cross cut sleds to speak of.

spk_0 And you know, in my brains, like I wrote a book on what I thought was just standard

spk_0 fundamental woodworking techniques and 80% of everything I'm showing is done on the table saw.

spk_0 And it's like zero of that was being done there, but they were turning out super high quality

spk_0 work.

spk_0 It's like, wow, this is a whole parallel universe.

spk_0 So I had just had Nick is like, well, how do you cut a tenant?

spk_0 Like it's like, I need my table saw for a tenant.

spk_0 So they make a lot of use.

spk_0 They have a fast tool, Miter saw, sliding compound Miter saw, which is set up super accurately

spk_0 and it sounds like they do a lot of their cross cuts, a lot of their like 10 inch shoulders

spk_0 and that kind of stuff on that sort of thing.

spk_0 And then maybe go to the bandsaw to cut the 10 inch cheeks, which is cool.

spk_0 So it's just, you know, it kind of goes to show how the way you look at a single machine

spk_0 in the shop, dictates how you're looking at everything else in the shop.

spk_0 So I would say that while a lot of us myself included, I see my chop saw as just a rough

spk_0 cross cutting thing and it's within a degree or two of square, but I'm not counting on

spk_0 square joinery out of it.

spk_0 Whereas if that's how you are set up to do joinery, you're going to make sure that is

spk_0 dead on.

spk_0 And so yeah, very, very eye opening.

spk_0 I'm not giving up my table saw, but I have an appreciation for doing without one.

spk_0 So now every time I'm in the shop, well, how would I do this now?

spk_0 And I would think like five minutes like, not never mind.

spk_0 I'm just, I don't know, I wouldn't do it.

spk_0 All right.

spk_0 So, okay.

spk_0 But Phil, you are not a table saw centric person.

spk_0 So did you not, did you feel at home?

spk_0 Yes, and no, because I know what it's like to not have a table saw to do 10 inch with.

spk_0 And that's even just kind of my personal preference, even when I have a table saw available

spk_0 to me.

spk_0 But it was also just the like Michael alluded to there.

spk_0 You make a tool, you make a choice either in tooling or design.

spk_0 And it was just interesting to see how though that one choice starts to spread out into

spk_0 a web of other choices that either are made for you or you need to make in order to accomplish

spk_0 something.

spk_0 You know, because like for example, when Mike was talking about the use the sliding

spk_0 miter saw to do the 10 inch shoulders, and they take the time to set the depth stop on

spk_0 the chop saw.

spk_0 And it's like every chop saw in the world has a depth stop on it.

spk_0 And I think there's probably four people listening to this podcast that either A, know that

spk_0 it's there or B, have ever tried to use it.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 You know, and to them it was like, yeah, that's just what you do.

spk_0 Like why wouldn't you do that?

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 And then Mike was saying to us, you know, when you look at tooling choices, so maybe the

spk_0 traditional mortis and tenon in a power tool setting like that just isn't necessarily

spk_0 this super pillar fundamental joint in the sense that maybe you're doing loose tenon joinery

spk_0 because you have a dedicated machine that does that festival domino or whatever, you know,

spk_0 because he was saying Nick was saying and talking about it.

spk_0 Like that's how we would do it here because we're kind of constrained on space.

spk_0 These students are going to go out to a shop and when they're there, that shop is going

spk_0 to have a tenon.

spk_0 That's what he said.

spk_0 How do you cut tenons?

spk_0 Well, on a tenon or tenon.

spk_0 Tenon is like a full size piece of equipment that cuts the shoulders and the cheeks and

spk_0 with probably two huge blades, right?

spk_0 Two huge blades, probably sliding table or something.

spk_0 Yeah, there's a sliding table down.

spk_0 Yes.

spk_0 They had a they had a old Watkins one at the building crafts college.

spk_0 I took a photo of a consent to you.

spk_0 They had been, but yeah, it's just, you know, they had like a monster mortising machine,

spk_0 you know, which is familiar to a lot of us.

spk_0 But this tenon or yeah, it was basically a sliding table and looked like two shaper

spk_0 cutters on top of each other that just buzzed both cheeks at the same time as you just

spk_0 pass the piece across.

spk_0

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 Huh.

spk_0 All right.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 So, so you went to the school or both of them.

spk_0 Yep.

spk_0 What else was was a part of this trip?

spk_0 We did a tour of the national arboretum called the Weston Bert Arboretum, which on the

spk_0 face of it might seem a little bit odd, but I think it's really, especially after being

spk_0 at the Snowden School where they were talking about, you know, woodworkers being at the

spk_0 tail end of a 105 year process of, you know, you have like a hundred years of this tree

spk_0 growing, you know, four years of this tree getting cut and then air dried and then you're

spk_0 at the end of this, you're at the tail end of this long chain of responsibility for

spk_0 making something out of this tree.

spk_0 And, you know, for me, it was just really cool to be familiar with our lumber on the hoof,

spk_0 so to speak, rather than just as boards.

spk_0 Uh-huh.

spk_0 And that there's a kind of a cultural history surrounding how specific materials were

spk_0 used, how they were grown, why they were grown this way, all that kind of stuff that was

spk_0 in there.

spk_0 Were they, well, first off, so what are the domestic hardwoods that you would find?

spk_0 They were dealing primarily in oak, beach, sycamore was a pretty heavily used one there.

spk_0 I think there was that film.

spk_0 Yeah, yeah.

spk_0 Ash as well.

spk_0 And I was going to say then we visited, we didn't actually get to see it.

spk_0 I turned into a really cool accidental demos.

spk_0 We went to see a box wood plantation, which was really neat.

spk_0 We didn't get to see the trees themselves, but across the way there was this church built

spk_0 in the 1200s and a guy was there who was a professional oboe recorder player playing

spk_0 traditional instruments.

spk_0 And he also makes his own instruments and he uses box wood.

spk_0 So it was really cool to get kind of a really cool deep dive into a single wood species

spk_0 by a guy who uses the wood specifically for the sound qualities of the instrumentations.

spk_0 It was all about working properties, sound, tonal qualities.

spk_0 And he whipped out a couple of his obos and played some tunes on it as well.

spk_0 So sitting in this church in the, made in the 1200s with furniture, which couldn't

spk_0 have been a whole lot newer, you know, a lot of like kind of gothic pierce carving heavy

spk_0 benches and altars and that kind of stuff was just very cool.

spk_0 So I think that Arboretum kind of spoke to, you know, a appreciation for native timbers

spk_0 and just a sense of place, a sense of culture, a connection between the wood, the materials,

spk_0 the woodworking, the style, the manner of things being built and how it relates to this very

spk_0 mature culture as well.

spk_0 So which was super inspiring.

spk_0 I think we think of that.

spk_0 And a lot of those terms here, you know, being a Connecticut looking at the wood that's

spk_0 going in my backyard made me more focused on working with local woods, swears in California,

spk_0 because everything came from somewhere else.

spk_0 It didn't matter if you were working with Paduk or Mahogany or Oak.

spk_0 It was all from somewhere else.

spk_0 It was just what color did you want to make your thing out of?

spk_0 So it just kind of took that kind of connection to place and culture and history up to the

spk_0 next level.

spk_0 It's like, oh, I'm just dipping my toe into this.

spk_0 You people have this figured out.

spk_0 So yeah, hugely inspiring.

spk_0 It never reminds me of driving down the road with Logan from popular woodworking and he'll

spk_0 be talking about, oh, there's some great like pinnocks back there or whatever.

spk_0 There's some great.

spk_0 And using phrases that we don't use because by the time it comes to the board state, you

spk_0 can't prove it was a pinnock or whatever.

spk_0 You know, it's like you have to have the flower or whatever.

spk_0 You have to have more information on the tree for all of those things.

spk_0 And I mean, I would assume Phil, you're getting some lumber every now and then from Logan.

spk_0 And he's he remembers cutting the tree down.

spk_0 Oh, yeah.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 So having that connection between where the tree grew, you know, what was the circumstances

spk_0 as to why it needed to come down, you know, all that.

spk_0 That can sound kind of fru-fru from the outside.

spk_0 But after hearing that oboist Joel talk about his very deep enthusiasm for boxwoods

spk_0 and what would it take for a woodworker to just just be super passionate about the material

spk_0 and wanting to figure out like what are the best ways to explore it as a material that

spk_0 shows off all of its capabilities in one way or another.

spk_0 You know, it doesn't have to be boxwood.

spk_0 Certainly boxwood was amazing after that.

spk_0 I don't think there was anybody in our tour group that by the time of Joel's presentation

spk_0 got over was like, I kind of want to make something out of boxwood right now.

spk_0 I don't know why.

spk_0 I have either of you worked boxwood.

spk_0 No, while while back kind of a friend colleague gave me a stack of shrink wrapped half inch thick

spk_0 maybe four by 12 or 14 inch pieces of boxwood.

spk_0 There's like 20 of 20 pieces and I never got around to do anything with it.

spk_0 And I'm kind of glad I didn't because I had really no idea about what it was and what

spk_0 its value was.

spk_0 And it's super heavy, super dense.

spk_0 It's almost, what do you say?

spk_0 It's almost as dense as like Ebony.

spk_0 But yeah, it has dense or a little bit more than Ebony.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 Yeah, it really takes a super hard shine.

spk_0 It's very heavy.

spk_0 It's got that sort of clink to it when you bang it together.

spk_0 You know, like there's just a really awesome aspect to it.

spk_0 So I went home and I looked at my boxwood and then I went online to see how much it was

spk_0 worth.

spk_0 And it's like, oh, okay.

spk_0 And I think it's nice older.

spk_0 And I'm hoarding it.

spk_0 So, um, all right.

spk_0 So he made Phil, you were sharing some videos earlier.

spk_0 This gentleman made a curved oboe?

spk_0 Yes, it was.

spk_0 First of all, I didn't realize that the oboe family was larger than an oboe.

spk_0 But he had like a regular, a broke style oboe.

spk_0 And then he had one that had a much more ball shaped bell on the end of it, which was

spk_0 I guess an even older style.

spk_0 I would have I would think of that as an English oboe, but there they probably call it

spk_0 something else.

spk_0 They just call it oboe.

spk_0

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 And then the curved one he had was called an oboe of the hunt.

spk_0 And it was this big sea shaped instrument.

spk_0 And he was asking us, I feel like he was setting us up because he's like, how would

spk_0 you make a curved oboe?

spk_0 And everybody's like steam bending, steam bending, that's how you do it.

spk_0 And he's like, yeah, that can kind of help.

spk_0 Boxwood doesn't really steam bend that well.

spk_0 Instead, it's kerf bent.

spk_0 So you turn the oboe and drill some of the holes.

spk_0 And then you curve it just like kerf bending.

spk_0 And then I think that's where you could use a little steam to bend it to its shape.

spk_0 But now you have all these holes in it from the curves.

spk_0 So then he has to wrap it in leather that seals up all the holes.

spk_0 And then a brass bell gets, you know, like a small, almost like a trumpet sized bell.

spk_0 It's put on the end of it.

spk_0 And then the rest of the keys and there you go.

spk_0 So is the whole thing like when you look at it, look like like like leather, like a basket handle?

spk_0 It did.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 Yeah, it had a, the leather he had was a real dark brown probably died or something like that.

spk_0 But it didn't look like, you know, it wasn't like, it was really fine.

spk_0 Wrap it was a tightly wrapped, it didn't look like it was like buckskin or something like

spk_0 that that was, that was put on.

spk_0 But it had a really cool shape to it.

spk_0 It had an amazing sound.

spk_0 Cool.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 Well, because he had several obos.

spk_0 He's a professional recorder player, which who knew that was a legit instrument.

spk_0 But it is.

spk_0 And then a couple of boxwood flutes that he had as well.

spk_0 Oh, really?

spk_0 So they, so I mean, he's really just making the most out of every piece of boxwood he could possibly.

spk_0 So, yeah, totally.

spk_0 It's, I guess it makes sense, you know, it's like Ebony, which is an instrument wood many

spk_0 times.

spk_0 So this is, huh.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 We need to snack some boxwood.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 That was really fun.

spk_0 One can be a piece.

spk_0 All right.

spk_0 I'll take that.

spk_0 You know, when you're working on a project in the shop, putting in hours of effort, measuring,

spk_0 cutting, sanding, the last thing you want is for your project to come apart because the

spk_0 glue didn't hold.

spk_0 Trust me.

spk_0 I've had it happen.

spk_0 That's why you should keep a bottle of gorilla wood glue on the bench.

spk_0 It's non-foaming, cleans up with water and dries a natural color.

spk_0 And of course, there's the reliable gorilla strength you can always trust.

spk_0 The bond is actually stronger than the wood itself.

spk_0 Also, look for gorilla wood filler for strong durable repairs with high performance,

spk_0 stainability, paintability and sandability.

spk_0 You're left with a professional looking finish project every time.

spk_0 Gorilla is strong enough for the pro and easy enough for the beginner.

spk_0 Regardless of the user or the job, every bond is built by you, backed by gorilla.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 So where did, where, oh, you went to a museum, right?

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 There were several museums that we went to.

spk_0

spk_0 The first half of the trip was in London.

spk_0 Second half of the trip, we were staying in the Cotswold region.

spk_0 While we were in London is, is the Victoria and Albert museum.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 And I had heard about it, but I'm not sure what I was expecting other than museum.

spk_0 But they had a, one floor, one big, long hall was entirely devoted to furniture.

spk_0 I guess the, the back, the origin story of this museum was that it was set up as a way

spk_0 to have like this clearing house of design ideas to promote the education

spk_0 of British designers and, and builders to give them, you know, bring in all this stuff

spk_0 so that people could be exposed to all that the world had to offer, so to speak.

spk_0 And just turn it into a, you know, a fountain head of, of an idea, like a scrapbook, so to speak.

spk_0 And, and so they had a whole section on furniture, which Mike pointed out just how well curated

spk_0 it was as an exhibit.

spk_0 Yeah, it wasn't based on chronology or necessarily even furniture type.

spk_0 A lot of it had to do with techniques where if it were something carved,

spk_0 they would have a piece from the 1400s that was carved and then a contemporary piece that was carved.

spk_0 So you're kind of seeing a juxtaposition of old versus new traditional versus modern takes.

spk_0 But so it's on a theme.

spk_0 So whether it was marketery or I don't know, I'm going to make stuff up turning.

spk_0 Inlay, carving, it was these different explorations.

spk_0 It's done really, really well.

spk_0 A lot of interaction, little touch screens at every exhibit.

spk_0 So you can click on a piece of furniture that you're looking at and it tells you all about it

spk_0 and interactive stuff in terms of wood and what the wood was made for traditionally.

spk_0 So I thought it was like a really nice entryway into furniture appreciation in a much different

spk_0 way than I've seen before.

spk_0 The main feeling you have coming out of it is just other depression at

spk_0 now just the high level of craftsmanship where some of these pieces where the entire thing was

spk_0 inlaid with small pieces of mother a pearl, the entire thing.

spk_0 It looked like Elvis's belt buckle times the high boy and you just realized it's like, wow,

spk_0 this is like someone's entire career was focused on this one aspect of craftsmanship in order

spk_0 to get to this level and it was just like, oh my gosh.

spk_0 So it was, you know, it was very inspiring but at the same time it was just so far beyond.

spk_0 I think what any normal modern person with a day job is capable of doing.

spk_0 But it was still cool and they had like a arts and crafts room which was super.

spk_0 What I really loved is that the type of arts and crafts furniture I like is that where it's

spk_0 kind of inspired by kind of gothic furniture, 1400s and they had like 1400s architecture and carving

spk_0 and furniture along with like arts and crafts furniture. So you're kind of going back and forth

spk_0 and that was really exciting. You know, it was kind of like just getting a much deeper appreciation

spk_0 for where these design forms are coming from and yeah, that was really cool and that kind of tied

spk_0 into later when we visited the Rod Martin Manor which was designed by one of the Barnes Lees.

spk_0 There's a dad and two sons plus another son and one of those sons I don't, but so Barnes Lees sort

spk_0 of known collectively as sort of a English arts and crafts maker architect shop and so this

spk_0 mansion was designed by Barnes Lees and all the furniture inside was designed made by the Barnes

spk_0 Lees shop Ernest Gibson who's another contemporary who worked with Barnes Lees was a part of that as well.

spk_0 And it was I guess the equivalent of going to the Gamble House in Pasadena where it's this home,

spk_0 the architecture and everything inside was all designed of a piece and I think the so I got to see

spk_0 a lot of pieces I'd only seen them in books they're super frustrated because they wouldn't let you

spk_0 take pictures of anything and I was I'm still a little bit upset about it but that's okay.

spk_0 But it was it was really cool so everything from the details on the furniture to the details on a

spk_0 hand rail of a stair rail to the front edges of these steps going up you see these these details

spk_0 which are repeated throughout the house and the idea how you can have kind of a central design

spk_0 theme yet still worked really creatively within that construct to create a nice variety of pieces

spk_0 of furniture which all kind of hang together not just in and of themselves but you get a sense that

spk_0 this furniture was being made over decades so there's definitely newer more cleaner modern-ish

spk_0 furniture but when you start to look at the details it was there was still a very strong connection

spk_0 even between the stuff that looked like it may have come out of an old castle to something that

spk_0 may look like it came out of more of a mid-century apartment or something but yeah that was

spk_0 that was tremendously inspiring because it's again a kind of dealt with themes that I think a lot of

spk_0 us try to wrestle with in making our own furniture like how do we make stuff that ties together how

spk_0 can we still be creative within working within a quote unquote style how do you make something new

spk_0 without having it be completely divorced from everything else you're doing as opposed to a logical

spk_0 evolution of your work so things I struggle with a lot it was just nice to kind of see that

spk_0 working out in real life so yeah inside of a giant stone

spk_0 manner which had been added on to over decades amidst the English countryside with the

spk_0 rock walls and the rolling hills and everything you can imagine when you think of you know the

spk_0 cotswolds yep it was yeah yeah because I kind of pictured I have pictured in my head the cotswolds

spk_0 from English period dramas on the BBC and then thinking that it's probably been turned into

spk_0 some kitschy name your local tourist kind of you know door county Cape Cod you know all that kind of

spk_0 stuff some place that used to be cool but now it's just touristy and it's not it's it's still sheep

spk_0 and hedgerows and all that kind of stuff I'm sure those elements exist somewhere but there's still

spk_0 plenty of places driving along where it's like yep I totally expect

spk_0 Father Brown to solve some sort of a murder here oh Father Brown yeah so going back to what

spk_0 what Mike said it was kind of interesting for me was two little lessons one is as he was talking

spk_0 about all these different pieces that held together even though they had similar elements

spk_0 and how there's like a fuzzy line at least in my own woodworking development where you say like

spk_0 I'm going to design something or I'm going to build something in the green and green style

spk_0 and you have this box and then you get the like green and green stickers and you just put the little

spk_0 elements on and you just kind of put them on all over the place look green and green you know

spk_0 cloud lifts and you know all the eggs and we're there yeah yeah but no there are there is a it's

spk_0 this these elements that are like the grammar and then you got to put it together into something that

spk_0 that really fits and then the other thing we were talking about is you know there's a way to go

spk_0 to a place like that and see things in real life and then think man I really want to build something

spk_0 that's in the barnsley style is like no maybe that's not the right lesson it could be but maybe

spk_0 the right lesson is like look at what the barnsley's did using this design elements and they're trying

spk_0 to take this really bulky piece because it needs to fill this space but they don't want these pieces

spk_0 you know the individual furniture components to look super heavy so how do we have the mass where

spk_0 we need it but then we make it look lighter you know are we adding a chamfer here or like a double

spk_0 set of chamfer so it looks like the pieces twisted and lightens up you know does it step back or

spk_0 tapers or you know so then applying those lessons to like a piece that I would make then is

spk_0 you know I need to make I want to make myself a desk so I wanted to be stout enough to

spk_0 be a desk and not feel frail but I also don't want it to look like a timber framed barn you know

spk_0 and it's you know thinking about all of those elements as as the way to

spk_0 apply the lessons that you see for something like that yeah I would I would think that Mike you

spk_0 would be just I guess if you couldn't take pictures but you've you've mentioned pierced carving

spk_0 multiple times and I know that that's like one of your sidebar obsessions maybe yeah definitely

spk_0 yeah as it was was this trip did it fill the bag yeah very much um

spk_0 I was absolutely again like being in this church from the 1200 seeing these pierced carved

spk_0 you know wooden structures part of the architecture um yeah I mean just to see the real stuff was

spk_0 was really cool and something fill alluded to is I'm a big fan of the chamfer I like to think I've

spk_0 gotten a lot of mileage out of the chamfer in my work but yeah like in the Rod Martin manner they

spk_0 are the masters of the chamfer and making it work and how heavy of it what's its visual effect how

spk_0 is it terminating into other parts and that was um yeah it's like I thought I was up to pierced

spk_0 carving no I'm still on chamfer it's like I'm still at this right uh it was it's sort of like the

spk_0 the level of detail and the mindfulness um that was a really inspiring thing is I really focus on

spk_0 form and proportion which is hard enough and it like that's plenty to focus on but then to get

spk_0 that right and then like move on to the details within a piece um and how they all relate to each

spk_0 other I feel like that to me was super exciting to see like oh there's a whole path forward

spk_0 in the work I'm doing to now start to focus down to a little bit more of a granular granular level

spk_0 and super exciting to see so and I think that the same kind of carry through we went to another town

spk_0 Broadway which is another uh Cotswold spillage um and there's a Gordon Russell museum there where

spk_0 a lot of uh Gordon Russell was a designer ran a shop and kind of started a contemporary a little

spk_0 bit later than the barn sleeves but still super heavy English arts and crafts to begin with and

spk_0 then moving on to more of a uh modern look through the 20th century but it was still really inspiring

spk_0 really neat stuff to look at and the person um at the front counter museum we asked if we could take

spk_0 picture she said of course I have one favor to ask you please feel free to open the doors and drawers

spk_0 and touch everything and it was the site wow oh lady you have no idea the wrath you have just brought

spk_0 29 woodworkers wandering around inspecting drawers oh yeah I mean there were pieces where I mean

spk_0 it was it was a nice collection it wasn't an overly huge space we thought oh we'll get through

spk_0 this pretty quick but no pulling out drawers looking at details it's like I could literally spend

spk_0 hours looking at individual pieces in the details um yeah truly amazing again getting down to that

spk_0 that level of detail and one thing I'm super inspired by not just from a design standpoint but

spk_0 I love kind of the the English method of drawer construction it's like everything was like super

spk_0 thought out like how to keep the just even just like the the bottom edge of a drawer front how do you

spk_0 keep that from scraping on the opening you just relieve it okay I kind of do that and like how can

spk_0 you keep the back of the the top of the back edge from scraping when it tilts down you can recess

spk_0 it that's cool but all those things were taken into account in really really elegant ways and the

spk_0 biggest difference um is that it's really common to use what's called a drawer slip uh instead of

spk_0 cutting a groove into a drawer side you're adding a piece of wood to the inside bottom edge of the

spk_0 drawer that has a groove cut into it and what that means is that your drawer size can be really

spk_0 really thin and you're not compromising the strength by having to cut a groove into it you're

spk_0 actually adding a little stick of wood with a groove to the inside edge of that and it's just a really

spk_0 very very elegant way to make a drawer it's just like oh this is how I'm making drawers now

spk_0 wait explain it again I missed it so it's like you did go ahead Phil you do a better job than

spk_0 I can you're a word guy I can't get through to this one maybe Phil can yeah yeah so you have the

spk_0 so the drawer sides were probably quarter inch five sixteenths thick material okay you know if you

spk_0 were to if you were to groove that for a drawer bottom either there's just not much for a groove

spk_0 or your slice in almost all the way through the side so instead there's uh let's call it like a half

spk_0 inch thick piece on edge that has a groove in it that holds the drawer okay and that gets put

spk_0 probably into a rabbit or glued to the side yeah like Mike's got there oh oh oh so this is for

spk_0 the actual not not for the drawer carcass this is the actual construction of the drawer of the drawer

spk_0 to hold yeah so then you have these you because these pieces of furniture half blind dovetails on

spk_0 the front very tightly elegantly done you know and then to have this be like super chunky drawer

spk_0 sides just wouldn't have matched and being able to narrow those up a little bit you have this

spk_0 what feels like a very sweet well designed drawer coming out of there and I think a lot of it

spk_0 had to do is that we were just part of a larger group of woodworkers so it could provide cover a

spk_0 little bit that you could totally nerd out on a piece and not feel like a weirdo and then the

spk_0 other thing was is when you're with other woodworkers is there seeing stuff that you're not looking for

spk_0 yeah all together because there were some pieces that I had looked at thought were super cool kind

spk_0 of fixated on and then all of a sudden somebody goes oh man did you see how they did the

spk_0 and then so everybody swarms around it and then people are starting to poke you know and

spk_0 pick out other stuff that they've seen and you know maybe would have escaped your eye or

spk_0 wouldn't have been that big of a deal but yeah once it's pointed out and then put into a context

spk_0 and then wrapped up in a big piece it's all the sudden made hole in a different way

spk_0 yeah that that sounds like a true experience like like being able to inspect with other woodwell

spk_0 and I've had like hints of it at like going to the Yale furniture study with Bob and Dyke and

spk_0 you know other people and just like walking around and like pointing but

spk_0 that place is overwhelming and it's I mean hundreds of hundreds of pieces you know so

spk_0 having a nicely curated selection to really inspect with other woodworkers oh man that sounds like

spk_0 a dream yeah yeah and you know we've like Mike said we've seen a lot of these pieces in books before

spk_0 and photographs but there are also several very key details of these pieces that have never been

spk_0 explained that I've seen in photographs before or brought out that it was like oh I didn't even

spk_0 know they did that on this piece that makes this even cooler yeah or just see the same detail on

spk_0 three or four different pieces like it didn't just exist in a background in a vacuum oh I just

spk_0 thought of this for this one thing it's like no you saw they have like a whole toolkit of design

spk_0 elements you can throw at different pieces for kind of a similar effect yeah and there's one

spk_0 piece I call it like the Goldilocks piece because there was more kind of primitive looking

spk_0 work and then there was more modern more detailed inlayed work and then like right in between

spk_0 this transition there was this one piece where it was like just right in the wheelhouse of just being

spk_0 basic solid wood furniture but then with a level of thought and detail and proportion that was

spk_0 like just right and I could just like sit and stare at this one piece you know I think you could

spk_0 do like a semester long furniture class on just examining the details and proportions of this one

spk_0 piece of furniture I'm in that's awesome yeah were there any other stops of uh to talk about

spk_0 was it I mean or was it just I mean it sounds like a blast just going through museums with other

spk_0 woodworkers and like that would be it for me I think but yeah that was cool uh we had there was

spk_0 a couple of days where they had scheduled some free time where you could kind of wander around

spk_0 one day in London and then one day in one of the Cotswolds Towns one of the other ones that was

spk_0 a surprise to me is because I'm not a Turner but I can appreciate those who turn and we were meeting

spk_0 up with a guy named Paul Hanna B and I was under the impression that we were going to be going to

spk_0 his shop to have him do a turning demo for us which I would have thought yeah awesome cool

spk_0 and he had us parking at some pub social club and I thought it was just because that's a place

spk_0 where we could park the bus and then get to his shop turns out this is the better probably the

spk_0 best way to do a turning demo in my opinion so for all you turners out there who want to do a demo

spk_0 is he rented out the social hall of this pub for the demo and set up his lathe and chairs so

spk_0 everybody in the tour goes into the other room and grabs a pint or a cup of coffee comes back

spk_0 and Paul had set up like hey I'm gonna be making this goblet in the next two hours it's got a twisted

spk_0 stem we'll talk about all this stuff ask questions as you need to push play and he just launched

spk_0 into it and it was it was fantastic that's awesome very cool very very cool well real quick

spk_0 I think that we should probably talk about the good time that we're going to have without

spk_0 mic around in Iowa because I'm heading out there in a couple weeks right yeah we have woodworking

spk_0 in America coming up very shortly that'll be a super fun time we're in the middle of all of the

spk_0 logistics and everything this is the part where once we get past this once we figure out how we're

spk_0 getting TVs in every room I think I'll be a lot happier yeah all the meetings pay off yeah yeah

spk_0 but yeah so Phil you're doing a presentation on frame and panel doors right yeah custom cabinet doors

spk_0 this is a technique that's been evolving in my head for quite some time just based on my own shop

spk_0 and work habits and experience on how you can create almost any kind of cabinet door and then

spk_0 customize it without having to invest in a lot of specialty this that or the other thing so cool

spk_0 yeah very cool and you're doing a couple I'm doing well I'm doing a presentation on parametric

spk_0 modeling with Fusion 360 and just kind of that whole like just show people because I think

spk_0 well Mike you're like this you are hesitant to learn CAD because it is a process it is a commitment right

spk_0 and yes well like you just you just like getting to work you want to draw the piece do do the model

spk_0 you know full size model and then build the piece and um I my goal with it is to just really show

spk_0 people like how uh powerful parametric modeling is where it's like all of the things that people

spk_0 have have associated with CAD programs like SketchUp or other things where it's like okay I just

spk_0 spent all of this time and now I want to change something and it it's all broken and I'm married

spk_0 to this model now whereas with with with parametric modeling it's it's really like a

spk_0 the change literally takes four seconds and um and you can see it on the screen so that's

spk_0 instead of the thing where you make a tweak to one table leg and then all the legs do the same thing

spk_0 well but even it's a thing where you can literally say I modeled this table at 32 inches tall

spk_0 but I just found out they'd rather have a coffee table so I'm going to change the height of the

spk_0 table to 18 inches and everything in the model changes and if you do it correctly your joiner

spk_0 aprons will update appropriately within the the spectrum you give it and uh even even curves will

spk_0 will update based on the new um it's it's kind of a mind-bend but that's why I really at first I was

spk_0 going to do uh Lutherie for woodworkers but I as I was digging into it I realized I was just like

spk_0 and there's not that many people who really want to wander down this road so um I thought that it

spk_0 would be better to show people fusion and and get that kind of thing going but there's uh you know

spk_0 Alexis Delise is going to be there she lit the place on fire last time so I'm siked for whatever

spk_0 she has to present and um Shay Alexander and uh Vic is going to be there uh we'll be doing a

spk_0 podcast I'm sure Vic will be on that I talked to him a little bit this morning about it so it's

spk_0 going to be a blast uh Logan will be there with a sawmill of course um Amanda she's going to be there

spk_0 Amanda is doing a presentation on uh like small-run productions which is kind of cool

spk_0 awesome of like the the mindset to get into if you if you're going to make you know

spk_0 10 of something you know right so that's because that's a totally different kind of bag you know

spk_0 so uh yeah I think it's going to be it's it's a blast it's always fun to hang out with a bunch of

spk_0 woodworkers you know it is yeah as we found out on the tour it's going to be really cool and in

spk_0 addition to the presentations and the vendor spaces there's going to be plenty of time to just

spk_0 hang out and chat with other folk and show them your projects on your phone and uh exchange some ideas

spk_0 get to get to tour the woodsmith shop studios where Phil is right now and uh yeah that was actually

spk_0 really a great way to start off last year because everybody's just hanging out as opposed to like

spk_0 being in a you know sitting there and like you know in in a stuffy environment something like that

spk_0 started it off with a very familiar tone so yeah yeah yeah come on by yeah woodworkingandamerica.com

spk_0 yep cool well thank you both always a pleasure we'll see if we do another trip I don't know

spk_0 if they were talking about another one or not and you know but I know I know Mike's trying to

spk_0 get a trip of Japanese woodworking environs going we'll see me what's weird didn't see that coming at all

spk_0 uh yeah I mean I think we're gonna be meeting and see what we want to do moving forward I think

spk_0 it was definitely a success and you know it's one of those things where it'd be cool to do a different

spk_0 place but at the same time I think going through the tour in England once and you kind of know what to

spk_0 expect and we can kind of tweak the experience a little bit yeah and um I think that would be great

spk_0 but then there's some other um low cows that had come up as well so uh yeah we'll see I think you know

spk_0 the the conservative answer is yeah I think we're we're definitely gonna look into doing it again

spk_0 and definitely kind of look at different places and doing something possibly in Japan

spk_0 is on that wish list as well so way too soon to to you know book your your plane tickets just yet but

spk_0 yeah more more coming down the pipe cool right now looking forward to it yeah yeah

spk_0 all right thank you both well that does it for this episode of Shop Talk Live thank you so much

spk_0 to Phil and Mike for sharing their adventures with us and maybe next year there'll be another trip

spk_0 and you can join in and have a great time as well if you're watching on YouTube please click that

spk_0 thumbs up button if you are listening on iTunes or Spotify or whatever if you can leave a five-star

spk_0 review and a comment that is always great for the algorithm we'll be back in two weeks with another

spk_0 episode I'm pretty sure it's going to be live from woodworking in America all right have a great one

STL351: Woodworking From UK to the USA

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