“Standoff”

Interactive Transcript

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spk_0 The New York court system is totally corrupt.

spk_0 They use the state and the city to go after me.

spk_0 They take top people in the Department of Justice and put them in the attorney general,

spk_0 Leticia James, a fascist and racist attorney general of New York State, Leticia James.

spk_0 I call her peekaboo James.

spk_0 We have a very bad attorney general there.

spk_0 She's a political hack who got elected to say, I will get Trump.

spk_0 I will get Trump.

spk_0 We have an attorney general who's a total stone-cold crook

spk_0 in New York State, Leticia James, a total crook.

spk_0 Hi again, everybody.

spk_0 It's Beverly Gagnio-Hark.

spk_0 Besides former FBI director Jim Comey, there is pretty much no one more frequently attacked

spk_0 and aligned and feared, disliked by Donald Trump,

spk_0 the New York attorney general, Leticia James.

spk_0 The New York AG brought a successful civil suit against Trump and his businesses

spk_0 with the judge last year finding that Trump and his company knowingly committed fraud for years.

spk_0 Trump has maintained her case was a politically motivated attack against him.

spk_0 This May, an ally of Donald Trump's accused James of mortgage fraud,

spk_0 the same claim that has been made against other perceived enemies of Donald Trump.

spk_0 But now, according to new reporting by NBC, MSNBC,

spk_0 we're learning this, quote, a top prosecutor in Virginia has informed colleagues

spk_0 that she plans to decline to seek charges against New York attorney general,

spk_0 Tish James, resisting intense pressure from President Donald Trump,

spk_0 that's according to two people familiar with her discussions.

spk_0 Elizabeth UC, who oversees major criminal prosecutions in the Norfolk office

spk_0 of the Eastern District of Virginia, has confided to co-workers

spk_0 that she sees no probable cause to believe that James engaged in mortgage fraud.

spk_0 The two sources told MSNBC, UC plans to present her conclusions

spk_0 to the president's new acting US attorney, Lindsey Halligan,

spk_0 in the coming weeks they said.

spk_0 Halligan, keep in mind, is new to her position because her predecessor,

spk_0 Eric Sebert, followed a similar path he resigned after he refused

spk_0 about to Trump's pressure campaign to crumly indict Jim Comey,

spk_0 and James, despite knowing that there wasn't enough evidence

spk_0 to bring successful cases against either of them.

spk_0 So Halligan, the insurance lawyer, goes in there to do what Eric Sebert would not do.

spk_0 She did go on to get a grand jury to indict Jim Comey on two charges.

spk_0 And according to new reporting and Reuters,

spk_0 there was another individual who lost their job due to standing up to Trump's wishes,

spk_0 defying Trump's wishes, to perp-walk Jim Comey.

spk_0 Quote, an FBI agent was relieved of duty for declining to arrange a perp-walk

spk_0 of the Bureau's former director, Jim Comey,

spk_0 in front of news media cameras after Comey was federally charged last month.

spk_0 That's according to four people brief on the matter.

spk_0 Those were, we begin the hour, some of our favorite reporters and friends.

spk_0 MSNBC senior investigative correspondent, Carol Lenning is here.

spk_0 She and our colleague, Kendall Laning, were first to report

spk_0 on this new prosecutor resisting bringing charges against Latisha James,

spk_0 also joining us former acting assistant attorney general for national security,

spk_0 the Department of Justice, Mary McCord.

spk_0 And with me at the table, retired FBI agent, MSNBC national security and intelligence analyst,

spk_0 Chris Alaria's back. Carol Lenning, take me through what you're reporting.

spk_0 Well, what we heard Nicole over the last couple of, I guess, days and hours is that a prosecutor,

spk_0 who's a supervisor, had a job like Mary McCord's was many years ago,

spk_0 overseeing criminal prosecutions for her US attorney's office.

spk_0 She concluded that there's just not probable cause to bring the case of mortgage fraud or bank fraud

spk_0 or any kind of fraud against Latisha James, based on the documentation and the evidence before her.

spk_0 We're also hearing that in the grand jury, material has been brought forward, witnesses have been

spk_0 asked questions and her conclusion is the same as Eric Seibert, the former, her former boss,

spk_0 the US attorney of the Eastern District who said, there's just not a sufficient basis to bring this case.

spk_0 And you know, Nicole, I want to emphasize things, something for people at home who aren't lawyers

spk_0 or don't follow this the way you and I do. It is a prosecutor's job and almost their solemn vow

spk_0 to bring cases where they believe they have a very high likelihood of sustaining and

spk_0 convicting on the charges they bring. And in this instance, now multiple people have concluded,

spk_0 career prosecutors, supervisors, Trump appointees have said, we don't have a basis to do this.

spk_0 So that is why it's so stunning that yet another person is still pushing for this, Donald Trump.

spk_0 And it's also stunning that another person weighed down in a small tiny office of the Eastern

spk_0 District of Virginia is willing to put her neck out there and say, this case still doesn't fly.

spk_0 Carol, let me read a little bit more of your reporting and then ask you what the response has

spk_0 been to your reporting. You write this quote on Friday, the top national security prosecutor

spk_0 in Virginia's Eastern District, railed against Justice Department political appointees for

spk_0 carrying out Trump's directives rather than fulfilling their oaths to quote, follow the facts

spk_0 and the law wherever they lead, free from fear of favor and unhindered by political interference.

spk_0 The prosecutor, Michael Ben Ari, had been fired after a Trump ally questioned his loyalty to Trump

spk_0 in a social media post. Ben Ari wrote, in a letter, quote, in recent months, the political leadership

spk_0 of the department have violated these principles jeopardizing our national security and making

spk_0 American citizens less safe. I wonder, Carol, if you can just speak to how extraordinary all the

spk_0 calls from inside the house are. These are all people that did not leave after last November when

spk_0 Trump won. They're not people who left after January 20th when he was inaugurated and went to the

spk_0 Department of Justice and gave a speech which is extraordinarily rare, exceedingly rare,

spk_0 to leave unprecedented where he called out people like Mark Elias for prosecution. They didn't leave

spk_0 when he started tweeting at Pam. I mean, they have stayed there to do whatever they could do to

spk_0 protect the institution. They love. Most people have these jobs for a very, very long time. A lot of

spk_0 career people don't go there to jump to law firm to make more money. They are true public servants,

spk_0 especially on the national security side. What do all of these calls? I just want to put up a list.

spk_0 Danielle Cessoon, former acting US attorney for the Southern District of New York, resigned. Hagen's

spk_0 gotten Cessoon's deputy resigned. Eric Seibert, the former attorney for the Eastern District of

spk_0 Virginia, who refused to charge Jim Coman, Tish James, resigned, Elizabeth Oyer, former pardon

spk_0 lawyer who refused to reinstate Mel Gibson's gun rights fired. Michael Feinberg, now a contributor

spk_0 here, former FBI assistant special agent who was targeted for being friends with Pete Struck,

spk_0 resigned. Brian Driscoll, Steve Jensen, Spencer Evans, former senior FBI leadership who filed a

spk_0 lawsuit saying they were dismissed in a campaign of retribution fired. And the stories we're talking

spk_0 about today, FBI agent who refused to arrange the perp block for Kami fired. What does it say that

spk_0 all these calls are from inside? And by the way, Nicole, when you list all those names, it's kind of

spk_0 devastating, right? But I could add about 25 more that are critical to the metaphorical

spk_0 security blanket that is wrapped around America. And now those people are no longer inside.

spk_0 You know, you said something so important. And it's about the mission that people have sworn

spk_0 themselves and their lives and their free time to. The mission is so important and

spk_0 and motivating for so many of the individuals that you've described, but also thousands more

spk_0 who stay in the Department of Justice despite this amazing, and I won't it's not even a tilt,

spk_0 despite this amazing effort to use the power of this institution to basically avenge Donald Trump's

spk_0 anger and his desire for retribution and to meet his specific whims at that time, his political

spk_0 gain, his personal gain. So many of these people remain there hoping, and I've talked to many of them,

spk_0 hoping that they will be a bulwark against exactly that, that they will put their bodies

spk_0 essentially in front of the bulldozer as it's coming their way. And as you have reported, as we have

spk_0 reported, as my colleague Ken and I have tried to document, the bulldozer is coming for more and more

spk_0 of them every day. Well, let's keep the bulldozer going. I mean, is this prosecutor who says there's

spk_0 no case against Latisha James, Mr. Jobsafe, is she still working there today?

spk_0 She is. There are people bracing for her presentation to the U.S. at the acting U.S. attorney,

spk_0 Lindsey Halligan, to have consequences. We don't speculate about what's going to happen. We know

spk_0 what's happened in the rear view to the former U.S. attorney who said there was insufficient evidence

spk_0 to bring this case, and there's a perfectly good reason for her peers and colleagues to be worried

spk_0 about her future. I will remind you that in the Southern District, you mentioned Danielle Sassoon,

spk_0 the former U.S. attorney, a Republican, a federal society member chosen specifically for that

spk_0 acting position when Trump first got into office because she was believed to be somebody so

spk_0 called on the team. And, you know, there are a lot of people who are in the Justice Department

spk_0 leadership right now, political appointees, who are trying to avoid the bloodblath that followed

spk_0 Danielle Sassoon, resigning rather than dismiss the charges, the corruption charges against Mayor

spk_0 Eric Adams in New York. And one after the another, a bulldozer came for those individuals,

spk_0 and they resigned rather than give Trump what he wanted. Mary McCord, your reaction to Carol

spk_0 and Ken's reporting? Well, you know, I mean, I can't say it's not, I can't say it's a surprise,

spk_0 given everything the trajectory we've been on for so long, and like Carol, I can name additional

spk_0 sort of fallout from what's been happening. My old office, the U.S. attorney's office in D.C.,

spk_0 the criminal chief there had to resign when she was asked to do something that she simply couldn't

spk_0 do, and she was basically told she would be removed or she would resign, and she resigned.

spk_0 So this is happening all over. I think it really reflects, I think, well on the career

spk_0 prosecutors in U.S. attorney's offices across the country, and some of them who are actually

spk_0 were political appointees. Now, I will note people like Eric Seibert and Danielle Sassoon, who were

spk_0 then holding these political positions, they had been career prosecutors, right? Who they grew up

spk_0 with the ethos of you do not misuse your powers. You follow the facts in the law where they lead,

spk_0 if you think you have a prosecutable case, and it has a strong federal interest, and you can

spk_0 meet your burden, not just by probable cause in the grand jury, but beyond the reasonable doubt,

spk_0 when you get to trial, you have the admissible evidence to meet that burden, then you go forward,

spk_0 and if you don't, you do not. And so I think you made a good point. Nicole, when you said,

spk_0 some of the people who stayed, like a lot of people left already, right? And some who stayed,

spk_0 obviously could stay through a certain amount of things that they might not have been that

spk_0 comfortable with, but they all have a red line. And I applaud the prosecutors are saying,

spk_0 this is my red line, and I am not going to go in and seek an indictment when I know the evidence

spk_0 is insufficient. It's not just that they know the evidence is insufficient. It could well be,

spk_0 at least based on Carol and Ken's amazing reporting about the investigation of test James,

spk_0 that they actually, it's not just insufficient. Like, they probably don't think that she did

spk_0 anything wrong because the evidence is so weak there. And so you're talking about people that

spk_0 would otherwise be asked to bring a case against somebody who their just is no case against.

spk_0 So what will be interesting here to see is what happens next, you know, back a long time ago,

spk_0 I think you and I even talked to Nicole about what are the safeguards against misuse of the

spk_0 justice department for political purposes. And the first one I've always mentioned was,

spk_0 is there a prosecutor who would be willing to present a case to the grand jury? At some point,

spk_0 the case just can fall out when there's no prosecutor willing to do it. After that, you do

spk_0 have the grand jury. And we know with respect to James Comey, at least one count they refused to

spk_0 indict on. And the other two, the vote was very, very low. And it's probably because probable cause

spk_0 is not a high burden. But that doesn't mean that the prosecutor Lindsey Halligan is likely to get

spk_0 a conviction after trial. The next hurdle would be a judge who will have to hear motions to dismiss

spk_0 if it looks like a vindictive or selective prosecution that violates due process. And I expect

spk_0 we'll see that in the Comey case. And then ultimately of the jury themselves. So there are different

spk_0 safeguards. And we're seeing at step one, right, the first hurdle we're seeing prosecutors say no.

spk_0 So we will see, well, Lindsey Halligan then put this one in the grand jury herself,

spk_0 like she did with Comey. And is she going to try all these cases? Like what is then going to happen

spk_0 if the only person willing to go forward is the person who's willing to do Donald Trump's bidding?

spk_0 Speaking of red lines, another person who found a red line was an agent according to Reuters

spk_0 asked to arrange a perp block for Jim Comey. Another million things that are wrong with that one in

spk_0 white color cases. It's not the practice. But that agents, or at least this agent refused to be a prop.

spk_0 I think is two things. One, good for this agent, but two, really ominous about the ease and

spk_0 cavalier nature of casting agents as characters in Donald Trump's sort of sick, you know, fetishized

spk_0 political prosecution of Jim Comey. Yeah, it's really alarming. And, you know, certainly credit to

spk_0 use the supervisory special agent on a violent crime squad at Washington Field Office. I don't know

spk_0 him personally, but I know many people who worked with him, worked with him and worked for him,

spk_0 studies an outstanding agent and really a model for what the FBI is supposed to be. But he just

spk_0 conducted himself with the kind of courage and integrity and trustworthiness that you would

spk_0 expect that of an FBI agent and that you're also seeing demonstrated by the prosecutors in DOJ.

spk_0 There's a standard that's been carried out by people who believe in service over self, believe in

spk_0 the rule of law, and believe in doing the right thing, not cutting corners. But this was intended

spk_0 to be just some more political theater at the expense of these agents and the report was that they

spk_0 wanted beefy agents wearing all their tactical kit. And I can tell you I was on, you know,

spk_0 tactical team, FBI SWAT and the FBI. I also deployed overseas with military special operations. And,

spk_0 you know, I wore that kit quite often against high-profile terrorists or when there was an elevated

spk_0 threat going against armed and dangerous individuals, trying to demonstrate that level of

spk_0 militarization or, you know, tactical, you know, optic to go arrest the former director of the

spk_0 FBI is inappropriate. It's not needed. There's no justification for it. And I can't think of an

spk_0 any agent that would be worked their salt that would follow through with it. Just for the non-sort

spk_0 of FBI fluent, just explain what that means, what the kit is, what is it? So it's your, what,

spk_0 you actually see all the people from DHS wearing regrily because it's been championed by the DHS

spk_0 secretary. I mean, it's, by the way, I'm also a former US Marine. It's what I wore in Fallujah.

spk_0 It's a tactical plate carrier. It's got all of your ammunition. You're carrying your M4,

spk_0 your ballistic helmet, your Ops Core helmet. This is to defeat a really heavily armed adversary.

spk_0 And the reason for the plate carrier is somebody is carrying a long gun that has certain

spk_0 capabilities that will penetrate a normal police level vest, which is only for handguns.

spk_0 Most FBI agents would never have to wear that on a daily basis. And, you know, really,

spk_0 they all get issued it, but really only high threat special occasions would you break that out.

spk_0 And going back to ICE and other DHS members, in my career, and I work closely with ICE over the

spk_0 years and had a terrific partnership with the FEMM, seeing them deployed in that every day and

spk_0 every corner of the country is just unusual. It's also, I would argue, inappropriate. And I've heard

spk_0 from many former ICE agents who I never saw in a single time where any of that. There are times

spk_0 where they absolutely should be justified wearing that going against a high threat target.

spk_0 Somebody who's considered armed and dangerous. It's not the routine. And it's, you know,

spk_0 if you look at the totality of it, the militarization of federal law enforcement should concern people.

spk_0 But you combine that with the deployment of actually military troops to US cities, fundamentally

spk_0 un-American. It's not who we're supposed to be. And it's not carrying out the rule of law.

spk_0 It's not what you would wear to Jim Comey's house. It was not what you would wear to Jim Comey.

spk_0 And it's also the standard would be Jim Comey's attorney, Pat Fitzgerald, would arrange for his

spk_0 surrender, which is done in most high-profile cases, certainly most white collar cases. And whether

spk_0 you like Jim Comey or not, he's trustworthy enough that you believe that he's actually going to

spk_0 surrender himself the day that he's supposed to on one's doing. Of course he is. Of course he is.

spk_0 All right, no one's going anywhere. There's much more in this bucket of news to tell you about.

spk_0 The legal fight to keep Donald Trump from sending national guard troops to Portland is ahead for

spk_0 us. Local officials say they're not wanted there and they're not needed there. The organ attorney

spk_0 general will be our guest this hour. And later what we are learning about the fire that destroyed

spk_0 the home of a South Carolina judge who just happened to have ruled against the Trump administration.

spk_0 The blame White House continues after quick breaks don't go anywhere.

spk_0 From executive producer Rachel Maddo, MSNBC films presents Andrew Young, The Dirty Work.

spk_0 The inside story of Martin Luther King's trusted friend and advisor.

spk_0 If I had to take old few kicks and legs together civil rights act, I'd do it any day of the week.

spk_0 And how he carried the dream forward onto the world stage.

spk_0 We had to take the movement in the politics.

spk_0 And who young The Dirty Work. Friday, October 17th at 9 p.m. Eastern on MSNBC.

spk_0 We're back with Carol and Mary and Chris. I mean, Carol, let me come back to you on

spk_0 the Comey indictment. I mean, that was certainly a rubicon crossing moment. And we were talking

spk_0 the break about how so many of my sources and I'm sure yours felt like US intelligence, US

spk_0 Department of Justice norms, all the things that were strain the military, the relationship

spk_0 between the military and civilian leaders, that all those things could strain for four years and

spk_0 not break, but not eight. And you're sort of seeing that analysis from 1.0 come true in that

spk_0 a lot of those people used to tell me we could handle four years, not eight.

spk_0 You're seeing less than one year into a second term some of these things break.

spk_0 And the Comey indictment seems to represent that absolute break of the rule of law inside the

spk_0 Department of Justice. How do you see the desired sort of casting of this from the reporting,

spk_0 quote, beefy agents to where their combat gear to dress, the way Chris did in Fallujah and

spk_0 Perp Block, the former director of the FBI? You know, I really enjoyed in a sad way Chris's

spk_0 description because it was so crisp and and detailed. And I was thinking with some irony about

spk_0 how my reporting back in 2023 and 2022, how careful the FBI were when they decided that they

spk_0 had probable cause and a judge agreed that they had good reason to go and search Donald Trump's

spk_0 home at Mar-a-Lago for possible classified records. Indeed, not only did they have probable

spk_0 cause when they searched it, they found hundreds of documents and pages of records that are among

spk_0 the country's most carefully guarded secrets. And the reason Chris's description of that,

spk_0 description of the Perp Block and the tech gear now being used is how different that was in the

spk_0 prior administration. I'm not saying, wow, the the other guys were so much better. I'm just saying,

spk_0 wow, they were so careful to not even wear their FBI rain jackets. They're sort of iconic outfit

spk_0 that they wear on a surprise search and unannounced search. They decided to wear khakis and white polo

spk_0 shirts. So as not to appear as if they were coming in heavy into a former president's home,

spk_0 they wanted to be to the degree they could be deferential. And Donald Trump has really flipped

spk_0 the script on that using Fallujah-like tactics or proposing them for collecting the former FBI

spk_0 director. His list, his target list, the people that are on it, in his view, they're all as to

spk_0 quote Donald Trump, guilty as hell and they deserve whatever they get. The problem is the facts don't

spk_0 stack up to to prosecute Jim Comey. I know the details of that allegation very well. I know they've

spk_0 been investigated before by the Department of Justice's Office of Inspector General. That is

spk_0 well documented what happened and what Comey said and it's in conflict with the indictment.

spk_0 There are no facts that have been presented to the grand jury yet according to my sources

spk_0 that suggest Latisha James engaged in any fraud and certainly not knowingly or intentionally

spk_0 engaged in any fraud. So this pressure to decide that they are guilty as hell as Donald Trump says

spk_0 means they deserve anything that he wants to throw at them and it's quite a turnabout from a couple

spk_0 of years ago when the Department was so gingerly investigating ample evidence of a crime involving

spk_0 Donald Trump. It's such a good point. It's such a good lens. I want to stay on that with you, Mary.

spk_0 I mean in terms of the affiliation of those who have attested to what Carol just said

spk_0 that in addition to Eric Sebert who's a sort of a Republican and good standing with MAGA with

spk_0 the Republican governor Virginia with the Trump appointees at the Department of Justice,

spk_0 John Durham who was you know you you talk to sort of the Trump 1.0 folks and you ask a question

spk_0 about Mueller and the answer was a noun of urban John Durham. You know this was going to be the

spk_0 answer to everything they feared that Robert Mueller was going to uncover. Here's what John Durham

spk_0 found about Jim Comey who he spent more than three years and seven million dollars looking at

spk_0 quote John Durham's just from ABC John Durham the former special counsel who spent nearly four years

spk_0 examining the origins of the FBI investigation into Trump's 16 presidential campaign and it's

spk_0 alleged ties to Russia. To the federal prosecutors investigating Jim Comey that he was unable to

spk_0 uncover evidence that would support false statements or obstruction charges against the former FBI

spk_0 director. Federal prosecutors in Virginia met remotely with Durham in August of this year

spk_0 to understand the findings of his investigation according to sources familiar with the meeting

spk_0 and Durham's conclusions raised the prospect that Durham who was once elevated by Donald Trump

spk_0 and other Republicans believing he would prosecute high-level officials involved in the investigation

spk_0 of the president's 2016 campaign could now become a key figure aiding Jim Comey's defense.

spk_0 You know who else so there was nothing bill bar he writes in I think his book is called I don't know

spk_0 all the damn things or something said quote everyone at DOJ agreed there was nothing there to charge

spk_0 Jim Comey so all of Trump's old friends looked at this because Trump made them look at this and found

spk_0 nothing. Yeah and you know I mean kudos to the prosecutors who were asked to look at this again that

spk_0 they said well let's go talk to John Durham right and let's by the way talk to the US Attorney's

spk_0 Office in DC because they looked into this too right so they did their own investigation and they

spk_0 looked to see what other prosecutors had found when they put resources into this and John Durham

spk_0 talk about resources three and a half years versus the two months apparently according to reporting

spk_0 that Comey was investigated by the Eastern District of Virginia so these are the things that you

spk_0 would expect prosecutors to do particularly if you're going to be doing something so unusual as

spk_0 kind of dredge back up something old that had been pretty much put to bed and said there's nothing

spk_0 to see here if you don't have some sort of new revelatory evidence what are you even why are you

spk_0 even re-investigating well you were doing it here because Donald Trump told you to and wanted you to

spk_0 and so good on them to talk to those who had done even more thorough investigations but it also just

spk_0 totally you know rips off any type of shield or curtain uh and we're seeing the wizard right is not

spk_0 a wizard because there's no there there and yet there was a prosecution that is being brought

spk_0 an indictment that is uh that is being brought and a man who is now charged who's going to have to

spk_0 defend himself in court and that could happen to others and Donald Trump is saying that it will

spk_0 happen to others know again i'm going to go back to having confidence that many prosecutors will

spk_0 say no and of course that's what happened here until we head Lindsey Helligan i'm hoping more grand

spk_0 juries if the evidence is not there will say no and that the safeguards will work but no one should

spk_0 have to go through that process because i mean Jim Comey has lots of resources he has lots of

spk_0 friends he let lots of associates he even has people who are not his friends who are sticking up

spk_0 for him right now but not everybody has that and it is expensive and it is psychologically damaging

spk_0 and it is just very harmful to people not only to be targeted by the president but then have the

spk_0 vast power of the Department of Justice mobilized against you Carolinig and Chris Lary thank you

spk_0 so much for this conversation and for starting us off today Mary will be back later in the hour when

spk_0 we come back the Attorney General of Oregon will be our guest he is fighting the Trump administration

spk_0 and its plans to send troops to the city of Portland that's next

spk_0 a legal standoff over the weekend of course having to do with Donald Trump's wish to send

spk_0 federal troops into states and cities led by elected democrats that resulted in as we've been

spk_0 covering the late night Sunday ruling by a Trump appointed judge which temporarily blocks the

spk_0 Trump administration from sending any national guard units into Oregon at all yesterday's order

spk_0 expanded on the judges Saturday ruling that prevented Trump from sending organs national guard

spk_0 into Portland the administration tried to sidestep that by sending the California and Texas national

spk_0 guard in but the judge took the administration to task and accused the Trump administration of

spk_0 quote direct contravention of her Saturday order Trump has asked an appeals court to lift her

spk_0 order by today because he claims the troops are needed in Portland to quell violence but here's

spk_0 her reality the facts on the ground if you will in Portland Oregon this is not war torn this is

spk_0 Portland we don't need help we got it under control take a look the thing that's harming us is

spk_0 the escalation tactics that Trump's trying to to use to create a narrative that you know Portland

spk_0 is this this boogie man that requires further militarization and we just don't I'm hopeful

spk_0 that the courts and I'm hopeful that ultimately common sense prevails and you know we continue

spk_0 to be peaceful and and not allow these things to happen in our cities and states

spk_0 doing our coverage organs attorney general Dan Rayfield thank you so much for being here

spk_0 absolutely thanks for having me take me inside what is happening right now legally in your

spk_0 efforts to stop Trump from sending in the national guard well this all starts when you have a

spk_0 president that bases his impressions of the world on social media gossip and trolling and so

spk_0 last Sunday we got an order that said hey they're going to bring in or federalize the organ

spk_0 national guard we were in court within six hours filed a lawsuit and then thought what we

spk_0 call a temporary restraining order which effectively would just pause the president's actions

spk_0 on Saturday we were successful 4 30 4 30 pm we get this order this is hey president you got to stop

spk_0 within hours we hear that the president is now trying to bring the national guard from California

spk_0 into Oregon we filed another temporary restraining order several hours later the next day we

spk_0 hear that he's trying to bring the national guard from Texas into Oregon and ultimately yesterday

spk_0 you had an exasperated judge who effectively said hey you can't do this there's no justification for

spk_0 using the US military and Oregon in the very stringent standards that Congress outlined and gave

spk_0 power to the president so that's kind of where we are federal government has appealed this

spk_0 and we're waiting to hear back to see whether the night circuit court of appeals is even going to

spk_0 listen um let me show you what Trump said is happening in Portland and I'll give you a chance to

spk_0 fact check him on the other side what is burning to the ground you have agitated its insurrectioners

spk_0 all you have to do is look at that look at the television you turn on your television

spk_0 region newspapers it's burning to the ground the governor the mayor the politicians are petrified

spk_0 for their lives so these are the facts that we haven't just I just want to give some police data

spk_0 to arrests were made at protests over the weekend and 36 arrests that protest in four months what

spk_0 what do you I think a judge theorize that maybe he was looking at some old newsreels I mean what

spk_0 what is he talking about and what is really happening who knows what he's talking about most of

spk_0 the time right I can say I'm a Michelin star chef but it doesn't make it the case uh he says things

spk_0 and that's why the courts are here because this is a president that is known for making his living on

spk_0 you know saying inflammatory things that social media impromptu uh some things they feel very unhinged

spk_0 from reality but that's why our court systems are so darn important right we're able to come in

spk_0 present real facts as you've noted um and a judge a judge it was appointed by president Trump sat

spk_0 there and said hey the facts that you're presenting in court just aren't true mr president in fact

spk_0 it's always a bad sign and I think it's actually a little bit embarrassing that the lawyers for

spk_0 the federal government came in and were actually citing the president's quotes on true social

spk_0 that's how far they've gone down the hill in the federal government in the court system

spk_0 so that's why we won the case uh as we're moving forward I should say we won the motion

spk_0 and we intend if those facts stay the same we expect that result to continue

spk_0 let me read you from the judges ruling Saturday um it's about resisting government overreach

spk_0 quote this country has a longstanding and foundational tradition of resistance to government

spk_0 overreach especially in the form of military intrusion into civil affairs this historical

spk_0 tradition boils down to a simple proposition this is a nation of constitutional law and up martial

spk_0 law defendants have made a range of arguments that have accepted risk blurring the line between

spk_0 civil and military federal power to the detriment of the nation how would you describe to people

spk_0 outside of your state the stakes of this standoff i think we all have to take a deep breath

spk_0 and then look at all of the things that are going on in our country right now the first thing that

spk_0 you should grapple with is you have a president who leads through fear right his own party can't

spk_0 even stand up to him because they're so fearful of what he's going to do to them in a primary you

spk_0 have a president that is normalizing the use of the military in our cities that's un-American and

spk_0 he's talking about doing it where he's going to be a police force in our communities with the

spk_0 United States military that's wild you haven't talking about rigging our elections like they're

spk_0 doing in Texas so that they can maintain power in congress and then a couple weeks ago he said

spk_0 and pressured the free press so much that even senator Ted Cruz was saying hey that's too much for me

spk_0 these are all hallmarks of a very effective democracy these are the things that other countries

spk_0 strive to obtain and he is attacking the core of these things and that is where i think we all

spk_0 have to be concerned and that's where does this americans we have to stop we have to push back

spk_0 draw a line in the sand and then while he's doing all that he's yet to get health care away from people

spk_0 he's passing regressive taxes including tariffs and also stripping people of food assistance

spk_0 it's a very bizarre world that this president wants to live and i think we have to look at the

spk_0 totality of what he wants america to be and say no attorney general dan rayfield thank you very

spk_0 much for joining us i hope we can call on you often as this battle goes on thank you for your time

spk_0 today absolutely thank you when we come back what we're learning about the fire that

spk_0 destroyed the home of a south carolina circuit court judge who faced criticism from trump

spk_0 officials after ruling she made against the trump administration the connection between the

spk_0 guests on the show is the show all that we do is put together people who are smart people who are

spk_0 brave people who are honest and lots of times people who've never met each other to have a

spk_0 conversation that has never happened before but on that day deepens everyone's understanding

spk_0 about the moment in which we gather deadline white house with the col wallis weekdays from four to

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spk_0 officials are investigating the cause of a massive fire that destroyed the home of a south carolina

spk_0 judge who has reportedly faced death threats after a high profile ruling against the trump administration

spk_0 the fire happened saturday afternoon about an hour south of charleston flames engulfed the home

spk_0 owned by circuit court judge dianne goodstein who according to several reports was out for a walk

spk_0 at the time but the local mbc affiliate is reporting that three people were injured and hospitalized

spk_0 including the judges husband former democratic state senator arnal goodstein and with little

spk_0 details known at this time law enforcement has been asked to provide extra security after the incident

spk_0 it comes amid a surge in hostility and threats against judges as well as criticism directly from

spk_0 the trump administration including for judge goodstein after she temporarily block the justice

spk_0 department from accessing the files of millions of registered voters in south carolina marie mcord

spk_0 is still with us marie what questions do you have based on what we're hearing so far

spk_0 well you know first and foremost is is get you know the what the investigation will reveal about

spk_0 who did this and what their motivation was i mean you know when you just put together the facts you

spk_0 showed in your intro i mean i think the first thing many of us think is was this intentionally done

spk_0 because of that ruling but we don't know that yet right that would be speculation you know could

spk_0 there be other causes for this could there i mean the the footage is devastating i mean it's just

spk_0 rarely have i seen a house just one house in such flames like that and then the the at you know

spk_0 the charge remains it's just shocking how fast this happened and how many people were injured and

spk_0 and could have been killed and so it's a horrible horrible heinous crime if it was a crime and not

spk_0 something that was done by accident and i know it's looking like arson but getting to that cause and

spk_0 if it turns out that this was motivated because of a judicial ruling that went against the trump

spk_0 administration this will be another escalation of course in what we're seeing when it comes to

spk_0 political violence and i think it is bad always it's bad no matter who it's directed to but when it

spk_0 when it is a judge i mean the judges their job is to rule in in the cases in front of them based on

spk_0 the facts and the law and to do that without fear or favor to do that out with it without any

spk_0 um any notice of or any consideration of politics and so you know this is the kind again we've

spk_0 talked today already about crossing rubikans right and when you're starting to attack judges

spk_0 because of the their rulings we're in a very very dangerous position in this country and it is

spk_0 it makes judges fearful it makes prosecutors fearful as we know it makes others in positions where

spk_0 they could be critic criticised by Donald Trump fearful and he needs to know the power of his voice

spk_0 and how people respond to that we've been saying this for years Nicole but like if this is what this

spk_0 turns out to be some sort of politically motivated act of domestic terrorism um then you know the

spk_0 the importance and significance of the things that Donald Trump says about a person just again

spk_0 will be demonstrated in this instance but i want to get ahead of myself

spk_0 well i want to ask you what would be a normal response from the FBI and what if anything you've seen

spk_0 well i don't know the latest details but i think a normal response you know usually there's

spk_0 a lot of caution in the immediately aftermath of something like that and we get the arson

spk_0 investigators in there right away and and and the first thing that they can determine usually is

spk_0 was it and is there indication it was arson versus is there indication that it was you know a

spk_0 a fire that started from natural causes or for an accident or something like that and after that

spk_0 it usually gets fairly quiet while they work on the investigation and determine you know are there

spk_0 any suspects and what is the motive and you know we've seen things treated very differently um recently

spk_0 I mean if you think about the immediate statements by cash betel and the aftermath of Charlie

spk_0 Kirk's shooting i mean he came out very very early uh with us you know statement about someone

spk_0 being taken into custody that turned out to be wrong and the FBI does i i i doesn't want to make

spk_0 announcements and have them be wrong so it's reasonable to me to be um cautious and what is

spk_0 provided to the public and also to the extent that they're looking you know for suspects you don't

spk_0 want to flag that for the suspects um what you might have about them and so there's just a lot here

spk_0 hopefully we will be starting to see in the coming days okay we'll stand top of it with your help

spk_0 Mary McCord thank you for spending the hour with us when we come back voting is underway on an

spk_0 issue that could go a long way in determining who will control the house of representatives we'll

spk_0 explain next voting is now underway in California as of today where voters will decide on the newly

spk_0 redistricted map that could determine control the house of representatives it's part of the democratic

spk_0 attempt to blunt Texas's gerrymandered map fighting fire with fire it has already become more of

spk_0 the most expensive ballot measures in California history with more than 200 million dollars spent

spk_0 and still more than four weeks to go until election day in a pitch to supporters California

spk_0 governor Gavin Newsom said this quote haven't helped us if we lose this is an all hands on deck moment

spk_0 for democrats we'll keep an eye on that for you one more break we'll be right back

spk_0 if you were to seek to engineer the perfect insider to help defeat trumpism and aid the

spk_0 pro-democracy movement you'd want someone with first-hand knowledge of trump's real vulnerabilities

spk_0 the things that drive him crazy someone who is not afraid to stand up to bullies and you'd want

spk_0 someone who knows his history lucky for us as they scare emoji takes all of those boxes watch

spk_0 we have to explain to the american people how they are better off in a democracy because in the

spk_0 cold there are always going to be people that believe in oligarchy or an aristocracy can run the

spk_0 country better right because they're the elitist they think they're smarter than everybody else

spk_0 but Lincoln you know Lincoln said to Douglas into the beach he said hey you know people think the

spk_0 american people are not smart but let me tell you something they have a very good nose

spk_0 they can smell a rotting cadaver in their basement that was literally the quote and we have a

spk_0 rotting cadaver in the basement right now and thanks garamagy understands Donald trump he

spk_0 understands the economy and he's putting politicians on both sides of the aisle on blast right now

spk_0 about the urgent need to save our democracy he's my guest on this week's episode of the best

spk_0 people podcast you don't want to miss it scan the QR code to listen to our conversation right now

spk_0 or download it wherever you get your podcast let me know what you think on instagram or blue sky

spk_0 thank you for letting us into your homes we're grateful

“Standoff”

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