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Ryder Cup fallout: Unruly fans, the "Envelope Rule", future captains!
In this episode of the Gopjup Podcast, Rex and Lav dive into the aftermath of the 45th Ryder Cup, discussing fan behavior, the controversial 'Envelope Rule', and the future of Ryder Cup capt...
Ryder Cup fallout: Unruly fans, the "Envelope Rule", future captains!
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Interactive Transcript
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Hello and welcome into this edition of Gopjup Podcast with Rex and Lav.
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Well, we're back again, folks, because quite frankly, there is just too much to unpack
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from the 45th Ryder Cup.
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The fallout, the envelope rule, future captains for the Ryder Cup, but also the fan behavior
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in Rex, you had an opportunity earlier this week to speak with Derek Sprague, the CEO
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of the PGA of America, who talks about what went so wrong at Beth Page Black, made crowd
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control of perspective, and why we should be confident that this won't happen again.
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Here's that conversation now.
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All right, we're joined now by the CEO of the PGA of America, Derek Sprague.
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Derek, thank you so much for joining us.
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And let's get straight to it.
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I spoke with a member of the PGA of America this morning who said he was, quote, disgusted
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in some of the fan behavior last week at Beth Page, what would be your message to your
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membership about what happened last week?
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Well, certainly, it's not the values of the PGA of America or 30 plus thousand PGA golf
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professionals that that work every day in this game to bring joy and laughter and fun to
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golf.
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And certainly we did not witness that last year.
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There's no place for it in the Ryder Cup, no place for it in the game of golf.
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And we certainly are not happy what happened last week.
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What was your plan to PGA of America's plan for crowd control and how did that evolve
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as the week went by?
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Yeah, I mean, what we've been planning for a number of years going into this event, like
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we do all our major championships of planning with the law enforcement and other security
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agencies.
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And we certainly did that here for Beth Page, we knew the Ryder Cup is the biggest event
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in golf and transcends many sports.
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And we worked closely with the New York State Police.
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They were the lead agencies and then we had several layers of security, including private
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security companies, to deal with the amount of fans, which is typical of a Ryder Cup.
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It's not like we had any large increase in numbers or not.
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And we worked with them and with a plan.
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Like any live sporting event, we made sure we adjusted as the days went on and we reacted
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to fan behavior, including removing a number of fans from the event or moving them away
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from the players that they were being abusive to and heckling.
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So we dealt with it swiftly and efficiently as it was made known to us, right?
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As a big golf course out there and we had plenty of law enforcement with the players,
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both sides of the fairways.
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And when you're looking at a large crowd, it can be challenging to identify, but when
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they were identified, they were dealt with very quickly.
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Seems like the worst of it, Derek, happened on Saturday afternoon with Roy McAroy and
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that football pairing.
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Specifically, when was the call may to increase security around Roy?
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And what was your level of concern when you started hearing reports from the golf course?
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He and I, of course, as the CEO, I let our team deal with that.
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In the moment, let them do their job.
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I have an incredible amount of trust and confidence with our security consultant and team.
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He was working very closely with our ops team and our New York State police and all the
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agencies.
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And that's an example, right?
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When we heard those things going on in Saturday, we immediately redirected more of the
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security forces to those matches that, whether it's Roy's match or other matches or fan
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behavior in parts of the golf course and then certainly going into Sunday, we made sure
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that we kept that amount of security in place.
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I'm going to make sure that it was, you know, what we felt and our security consultants felt
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was the right amount of people to make sure that one, the players were safe and the fans
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would be dealt with swiftly if they got out of line.
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Now, Beth Page is set to host the 2033 PGA Championship as well as the KPMG Women's PGA in the
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Fuse to Future based on what happened last week.
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Is there any thought right now?
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I know it's still fresh, but of moving those championships because of crowd concerns.
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No, there's no fun in that.
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Beth Page Black is just a great championship layout.
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You know, we have our 28 women's PGA Championship there, KPMG Women's PGA in 28 and then certainly
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as you reference the 33 PGA Championship, we will take all our debris from this week,
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everything from logistics.
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We were not perfect on logistics either and we will be looking at that as well for the next two
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championships over the next eight years there as well as making sure that we have the right plans
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in place.
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And that's one thing I think that we do well is that we will just learn from this event,
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like we learned from all of our events, we try to make the next PGA Championship or the next
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rider cup the best it's ever been.
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And that's what we intend to do here and carry from what we learned this past week into
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those championships going forward.
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Does the PGA take any responsibility for the pre-event messaging that crowds were going
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to be large and loud and difficult for the European team?
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Well, I think we take responsibility for the fan behavior, but the New York fans, we
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knew going on going into this that they're passionate, right?
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They love their sports teams here.
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And I think, you know, and that's what sort of makes the rider cup special is that they're
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passionate on both sides.
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Rex, I've been to, this was my ninth rider cup.
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So I've been to a number of Moversees as well as here.
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And, you know, they are passionate on both sides.
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And certainly we had a small number of fans that crossed the line here this past week.
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So I don't think it's indicative of every fan there.
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I've received emails and text messages.
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Fans had great experiences this week and sending thank yous.
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And so whether they weren't in the heat of the battle with those particular matches that
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may have had some people cross the line.
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So it's been mixed, but certainly we want to improve and we do know that the fans are
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very passionate in that market.
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And but there are no plans to change the event.
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It's just a great venue.
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Well, and to be fair and to weigh both sides here, why is Betpage Black as a venue for
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the PGA America, whether if that's for the women's championship or the PGA or even
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maybe a future rider cup?
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Why is it important enough to maybe offset some of those and you pointed out it was a
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pretty small minority of the crowd who was over the top.
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But how do you weigh that?
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Well, as far as selecting Betpage as a venue.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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Again, that's a great example when we announce 28 and 33 major championships.
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You know, it's just a great example of a private and public partnership.
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And having five great golf courses at Betpage and Betpage Black, obviously standing out
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as a great championship venue.
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You know, it has a lot of space there.
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Has a lot of space for our vendors and corporate hospitality and this past week, we had,
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you know, a helicopter pads on one of the golf courses and the Polo field was the
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stage in area.
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I mean, it just has a.
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And that's one thing that when we select sites, Rex, when people ask me, you know,
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privately or publicly in this form is that the golf courses just one, one check box,
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if you will, we want to make sure it's a championship golf course, but we also have to
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look outside the ropes and we need a lot of space today for TV compounds or vendors,
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corporate hospitality.
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I think you saw the layout there.
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And that was just on one side of the golf course, right?
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I mean, where ground swamp road was, we had a lot of a lot of infrastructure and we just
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need a lot of space.
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So that's why Betpage Black lends itself so well to a major championship like the PGA
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to KPMG women's or like last week's Ryder Cup.
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Looking ahead a little bit, why should fan on both sides, Europe and on the United States
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be confident that there won't be similar episodes in Hazel team in 2029?
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Well, I think in a championship that we want run Rex, whether it's the Ryder Cup or any
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of our other majors on all the tours and with our partners at Ryder Cup Europe and talking
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to their leadership there, there is no place for this type of behavior that crosses the line.
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Our discussions will leading into a dare manor and two years time.
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We will be talking to the leadership as we did this year, right?
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Of how are we, they had some, you know, they, we had meetings in advance.
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What are we going to do about the crowds if they get and we explained all the protocols we
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had in place in the New York State police and they had a level of confidence that it would
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be dealt with and we'll do the same thing going into 2027 in Ireland to make sure that,
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you know, we uphold the integrity of the, in the sportsmanship of the Ryder Cup, right?
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That's when it started in 1927.
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It was about sportsmanship and the integrity of the game and the, and that's what we want it
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to be and continue to be and it's unfortunate that people crossed the line last week and I hope
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it doesn't take away from the brilliant play of both teams that we witnessed last week.
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I haven't had a chance to look at the scores but I'm hearing some just incredible scores like
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eight and nine under and four sums and, you know, five under after six holes or six under after five
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holes. I can't wait to do a deep dive and look at how and I hope it doesn't because these were
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the 24 best players in the world and I think they gave golf fans around the globe just an incredible
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event to tune into and we saw that with the ratings when the Americans were making a run on
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Sunday afternoon that people were tuning in and that's what the Ryder Cup should be remembered by
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and unfortunately some people are going to, they had a bad experience, you're going to remember it
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for the fan behavior or the long bust lines or the traffic jams but let's not take away from
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the great play that they had. Now, and you go specifically to someone that probably didn't enjoy
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the process very much was Roy McAroy, he was clearly on the wrong end of a lot of comments coming
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from the crowd. I'm not sure if you've had a chance to talk with Roy or anyone from the European
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team but if you did, what would your messaging be? Did him? Yeah, I talked a little bit to you, Paul
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McGinley last night. I was at an event with him and some of your colleagues last evening but
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look, I know Rory and Erica, Erica used to work for the PJ of America. She's from Rochester, New
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York, I'm from Malone, New York. I feel like I have this New York bond with them, although it's not
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New York City or Long Island, we're in the more, you know, we grew up in the rural areas of New York
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and we didn't have any big sports teams near us to get passionate, too passionate about anyway.
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No, I haven't spoken to Rory or Erica. I do plan on sending them an email with my heartfelt
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apologies of what occurred. There's no place for that in the Ryder Cup or in the Game of Golf.
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I think Rory said it, I heard it snip rate. We're better than that in golf and that's one thing
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that our game has always sort of portrayed right around the world when you compare to other sports.
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Is that golf is a great game and people enjoy the game because of the values that the game of golf
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has and I can't wait to reach out to Rory and Erica and really quite frankly the entire European team,
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although they, as you mentioned, they might have been a target because of how good he is,
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but the whole European team should not have been subjected to that and because of that,
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I feel badly and I plan on apologizing to them.
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Now looking ahead and this probably isn't quite a fair question, you're still in New York City,
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you're still unpacking what happened last week, but how do you keep something like this from
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happening again in the future? Well, Rex, as you probably recall, I was the co-chair of the Ryder
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Cup Task Force back in 2014 after Glenn Eagles and Pete Bavoc with the CEO then was the other
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co-chair and we talked about really the team and the captain's season, the vice captains and
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sort of asked more on the competition side, but certainly we will be doing a debrief internally
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from our ops team and all our incredible employees at the PGA of America.
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And then the Ryder Cup Committee will also talk about, I'm sure, they'll be reflecting on this
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and how we need to build that task force was designed to how we can put the team in the best
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position to be successful and to have wins. And I think we did that in 2014, we won in 16, we won in
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2021. So I think it showed some success coming out of that. And like I haven't been involved in the
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last number of years, but I look forward to as a new CEO getting back on that task force or that
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Ryder Cup Committee and seeing what we can do to not only make the competition to reflect the values
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of the Ryder Cup, but also to give the American team, I got to put my American head on here for a
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second to give our team the best chance of success and I look forward to doing that in the near future.
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Well, I really appreciate you taking the time. I know it was a crazy week last week, so thank you
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very much, Derek. Thank you, Rex, and thanks for everything you guys are doing to promote the game.
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And many thanks to Derek Sprig for joining us. I believe Rex, that's the first time he's done an
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interview since the Ryder Cup and hopefully that was instructive for all of you who are watching
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and listening. You conducted the interview. What was your biggest takeaway from that conversation?
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I think first and foremost, everybody just not in the PG of America, but everybody in the universe
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of professional golf is, it was pretty mortified by what happened. And I don't think you can overstate
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this enough. The idea that this should not have happened, not at Ryder Cup, not at a major sporting
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event, just in society in general. That's no way to treat another human being. Certainly,
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Roy McAroy endured the worst of it. His wife endured enough as well. So that's the starting point.
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There is no apology apologizing for the fans in New York. I think what I go back to when we sort of
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left New York and Monday morning, I reached out to Ted Bishop, who was the president of the PG of
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America in 2013 when they decided to take not just the Ryder Cup, but obviously the PG-H
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Championship in 2019 to Beth Page Black. And they knew what was going to happen. They decided
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to go to Beth Page Black because of the crowds, because of the atmosphere. This didn't come out of
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left field. This was not a secret. We all knew this was coming from the day it was announced on 2013
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until Sunday afternoon when it sort of sunk in. The idea that this is sort of mainstream sports.
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And I guess the question going forward in Derek sort of touched on it a little bit. They
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PG of America has two more championships scheduled to be played at Beth Page, the KPMG
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Women's PGA and the PGA Championship in 2033. And I asked them point of light. Do you intend to
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just still go there? Is there any thought maybe of not going back? And it's clearly it's not. And
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it's always going to be a trade off with this specific venue. Because if you want to have the
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highest profile Ryder Cup you possibly can in the United States, I'm not quite sure you could find
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another venue between the crowds, between the location, between in proximity to New York City.
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Everything that goes into it makes it the perfect venue. And it also makes it the imperfect venue.
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So the question now is are we okay with what happened over the last three days of the Ryder Cup?
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Or is it time to sort of reassess? Or is this just the status quo now that we're going to move
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forward with this sort of raucous, rowdy atmosphere? Yeah, you kind of know what you're getting with
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Beth Page, right? Like Sergio got heckled at the death in 2002. Who knows what would happen with
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Luke's looks with Luke's glove or if it wasn't such a day loose of rain, having the Monday finish
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of the US open in 2009. Remember Brooks Keppga a runaway winner at the PGA in 2019. But he even
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he said when he was walking down the hill at 2019, fans were literally screaming in his face like
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you're choking as Dustin Johnson among others was making a charge. And so it sort of comes with
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a territory. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but the PGA willfully knew that this was the case
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and they still opted to go to that venue. It's pretty clear listening to Derek Sprig though,
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right? So like he feels badly about what happened. It was a it was a terrible experience for the European
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Ryder Cup team. It was a terrible experience for those who were on site who wanted to watch and
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appreciate great golf. Like I would have been mortified if I brought my six year old to that venue.
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Just wanting to watch the 24 best players in the world and all of a sudden he was being inundated
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by vulgar, crude, disrespectful chance. Like that is no example that you should be setting,
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particularly the first T announcer, the the comedian who was brought in by the PGA. Like that's just
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absolutely insane to start a chant of FU Rory to kick off the day. It was a terrible experience.
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I had a bunch of friends who went terrible experience from many spectators with the viewing options.
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They couldn't really see anything. That's not a typical for a Ryder Cup. I think it was exacerbated
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at a golf course like Beth Page Black, which was spread out over such a large property. So many
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uphill greens. There was long lines. There was traffic. It was a little bit of a mess logistically
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as well. I think all of that goes to say and again, it was a 13 minute conversation with Derek
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Sprig and you guys covered a lot of ground. It does make you wonder if the Ryder Cup has gotten so
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big, so powerful and so important that it's essentially outstretched the capabilities of the PGA
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of America who keep in mind their sole mission is not to put on a major championship or a Ryder
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Cup every four years at home. Their primary mission, Rex, is to look after the 31,000 PGA professionals
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around the world who are doing Yomans work and really trying to improve the game for at a grass
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roots level. There was a viral clip not from Derek Sprig, but of the president Don Ray who said
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that he somehow had not heard the abuse lobbied at Roy McRoy and he said that quote, golf
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is the engine of good. It just makes it sound so out of touch with reality and what's actually
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happening on the ground. When you sort of fast forward to what could potentially, how could you
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improve the situation? Quite frankly, the PGA tour has billions of investment dollars to spend.
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And you wonder if they'd want to make a play for these Ryder Cups at home, maybe for the PGA
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championship as well, even in like a revenue sharing sort of agreement just seizing operational
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control of the Ryder Cup. They know how to run events. They run events almost every single week
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of the calendar year, big events as well as well as the president's cup and the players' championship.
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Let them cook, let them do the right thing because it seems like the Ryder Cup might have gotten
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a little bit too big for the PGA. And to be fair, and Derek Sprig addressed the logistic issues
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as well. If you take the crowd out of it, you just look at the logistic issues that went into this
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Friday with the president on property, certainly complicated things. But again, you kind of knew
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what you were getting. You knew this was going to be a Ryder Cup unlike anything we've ever seen
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in the past. And you can work your way around there. I see where you're going with this. I'm not
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going to take it a step further and this might be blasphemy. Even if Augusta National was running
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that event and we can all agree that Augusta National pulls off the best event of the year more
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times than not. I'm not quite sure they could have pulled that one off seamlessly. I mean, the crowd
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was going to be what it was going to be. So I apologize for the cliche. It was always going to be
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gross because you have made that atmosphere a little bit better because you made the logistics a
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little bit better. Absolutely. But it goes back to, and again, I'll give you an anecdote that Ted
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Bishop going back to 2013 told me that the day after they made the announcement that the 2019
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PGA in this Ryder Cup was going to Beth Page, it just so happens that the PGA of America closed its
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media rights deal with NBC sports, which we all know we're a part of right now. And it was a
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multiple factor increase over what they had. The way it was explained to me by Ted Bishop is it
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was a it was a deal that they did not anticipate they could pull off. It was beyond their wildest
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dreams. And he said it was solely based on the idea that NBC realized that having two major
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championships in the New York area at Beth Page, we're going to be off the charge that this is the
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kind of content that you can only get out of sports. It's must must watch TV. You can't just put
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this on pause and circle back around to it anymore. So if you want to maximize what the PGA of
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America does for its members, and you're right, it's a member organization trying to help all 30,000
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members, you need to make sure you maximize what you get out of just not the Ryder Cup with the PGA
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championship as well. You may not have liked it. And certainly I did not like it. You did not like it.
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Rory must have not liked like any of it. But that's how the PGA can maximize whatever it is they get
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out of the Ryder Cup. It is a business. I know sometimes we want to stick our head in the sand,
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ignore that fact. But the fact of the matter is it made a lot of money. $700 general mission tickets,
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huge media rights deals. We saw it last week first hand.
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Operationally, yeah, there's certainly stuff that can be cleaned up. I'm sure Derek Sprig and the
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rest of his lieutenants will have that front of mind as they go through the debrief of what happened
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at the 2025 Ryder Cup sort of tangentially related wrecks to the crowd that we didn't get into
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on the Sunday show. But it's sort of percolated with other viral clips that have come out that a lot of
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folks including 2008 U.S. Ryder Cup captain Paul Azinger claimed that Roy McRoy was being
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hypocritical because you and I were both in that press conference. You talked afterward about how
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golf should be held to a higher standard that there's no room in this space for the vulgarity
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and just the level of the tension that we saw. But you contrast that in Roy's comments with clips of
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yelling F you to the crowd to flipping off the crowd. How do you square that with Roy McRoy
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specifically? Is he hypocritical? Is he talking out both sides of his mouth or is this more of a
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nuanced situation? As I like to tell my kids two things can be true on this front. That behavior
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from the New York crowds is unacceptable. Again, not in a sporting event just in life in general.
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Like just don't treat other people like that. I don't care what your motivation is. I don't care
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where you are in life. However, yes, Roy embraced the antagonist role to a wild degree. The way
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not just he was dropping F bounce back at the crowd but the way he was pounding his chest. It makes
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it fun. We have seen this time and time again from Roy McRoy especially in these settings where
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it's so one-sided and you have these home team crowds that just want to lean into it. I'll go back
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to the idea and we did touch on this on Sunday nights podcast. Tommy Fleetwood didn't suffer
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that level of slings and arrows. I'm sure he heard his share of bad things said from the crowd but
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it's because Tommy Fleetwood does bring stuff on the golf course may fist pump but no he's not
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engaging with the crowd. I would say the same thing about Justin Rose. There are plenty of players
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on the European team that played brilliantly that didn't do what Roy did. That's not justifying
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what the crowd did and I don't know what the tipping point is here. How much abuse should one
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person take before they snap before they start pushing back? We saw that first hand with Shane
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Laury. I'm not even quite sure he was taking the majority of the abuse. He was just tired of hearing
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what they were saying to Roy. I saw him having to be restrained by a New York state police officer
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to get an idea. So there is something to be said for how far can you push a person before they
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push back and we saw that out of Roy but yes to be fair if Roy is going to stand up there and
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do what he did then he has to take a modicum of responsibility for this. Look Roy has embraced
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that antagonistic role before. You think back to Hazeltein in 2016 where he was bowing to the crowd,
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he's waving to the crowd. There was a playfulness to that and I think we saw that all week at
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Beth Page Black among the other players whether it was Bob McIntyre, Justin Rose, Tommy Fleetwood,
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John Rom, just sort of like I hear you, you're bowing, you don't like it but I'm going to show you
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how good I am and there's just a little bit of a showmanship to that. I think Roy thrived in
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that sort of atmosphere in 2016 specifically where I think this is different. I don't want this
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to sound like I'm a Roy's stand here is that I think it's one thing if he's instigating it.
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Right? And what Roy has done over the past two years whether it was him piling the table in
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Rome and guaranteeing victory it's showing support for his guys and his team showing confidence in
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himself and his team. That's what you want and expect from a team's emotional leader. What he was
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doing at Beth Page Black in my opinion was simply reactionary where here's a guy who's getting dumped
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and he was pushed to the breaking point and look I sincerely felt for him like the vile stuff that
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was hurled at him, his wife, his family. You could stomach that in spurts. You can try and block that
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out for an hour or two but over the course of three days and over the course of an entire week of
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practice like there's just only so much that one man can take and he occasionally snapped. I'm
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sure he regrets some of the things he did. Sinkling out the fans on 17, FU, FU, FU like that was a
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pretty regrettable moment. But I still think overall the way that he played going 3-1-1 with so
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much attention on him, so much vitriol directed at him was still like the second most impressive
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thing that he's done this year outside of weathering the storm that was the second 9-0 August in
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Nashville trying to complete the career Grand Slam and win the Masters. I'm not necessarily
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excusing his behavior but I think his behavior was understandable. If he was going out of his way
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to single out fans and shouting at you at them then I think yeah that he's instigating the behavior
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and is antagonizing a crowd that has a history of being hostile and being very vitriolic. Instead
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this was basically him just being reactionary and that's why I think this is different and that's
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why I think overall I'm giving him a pass on the behavior. And I think that's absolutely fair and
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at no point did he initiate any of those exchanges. It was always your right. Just the barrage of
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things that were being said to him certainly is going to push a man to the breaking point and he got
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there. I think the only point that I would fall back on is when he gets to that breaking point no
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one leans into it more than Roy and I understand I can imagine being in a similar situation where
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I'm not going to be restrained either but that doesn't help in a situation where it's so explosive.
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Friday afternoon was just a volatile situation and there's nothing he could have done to turn down
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the temperature in the room but there were things he could do to turn it up and he did those things.
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Yeah I think there's I think just like a limit to it right. Like I think you can be fueled by it
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it can make you hungry it can it can increase your level of performance but over the course of
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three days that's really hard to sustain and and and block that out and use that as fuel and I
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think that's why Roy Macro is the first to admit that he had nothing left on Sunday he'd given
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all of himself on Friday and Saturday to either shield himself me insults or basically ride the
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wave of adrenaline and momentum in doing what he did over the first couple days and he had a pillow
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fight with Scottie Shuffler and frankly had nothing left. Another topic Rex that you and I we
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alluded to on the Sunday public we never we never actually got in who could have imagined that having
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what 24 report cards were eventually going to take 20 to 25 minutes of the 52 minutes that we had
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a lot of but one thing that we did want to get to which is still a topic of conversation even a
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couple days after is the envelope rule the little use rule but it's one of the unique
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cute little quirks of the Roderick up it was implemented the envelope rule was in 1979 but it's not
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actually been used in the matches since 1993 why it was instituted this year and implemented was
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that Victor Hovlin of course could not go for Sunday singles because of what was described in an
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MRI confirmed was a bulging disc in his neck to counter that the Americans then had to put a player
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in the envelope who in the case of injury or illness would not play and would then have a receive a
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half point that player chosen by Captain Keegan Bradley was Harris English and so Victor Hovlin got
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half a point for not playing in Harris English that half a point for the Americans for not playing
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a lot of fans Rex are saying this is stupid this is outdated this is no way to crown a potential
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winner of what is a significant event in the world of golf what do you think we are I always use my
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son my middle son he's a senior in college we're going to go with Trevor right now because he has
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long hair like your hero Trevor Lawrence does and as a litmus test when I got home on Monday the first
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thing he asked me is exactly what that meant and when I told him envelope rule he looked at me I might
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the words coming out of my mouth might have well been they put Harris English in the elevator to the
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like that that would have been the equivalent of whatever it is he was trying to wrap his mind around
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because he also to be fair he also didn't know which which countries
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to team Europe yes wildly disappoint but such truck is playing for Australia last week that was
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news to me but beyond that so close whatever he was so close beyond that I will say he has no idea
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what a non-beloved is because he never has to send a letter in this day and age we don't send
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letters so that's where the first stumbling block is I walked away from that Sunday press conference
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with both teams the most disappointed because Captain Keegan Bradley was asked about the envelope
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rule and he was very strident yes I do not like this at all do you have a fix I've got some ideas
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would you share them no I want to hear what could possibly fix this because you and I have
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batted this around now for a couple days there are a couple of scenarios a so high cup just gives a
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full point to the team that doesn't have the player that can't play so they essentially the player
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the team that has the injured player loses a whole point I'm not quite sure how comfortable I would
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have been with that on Sunday night at Beth Page because Victor Hoblin can't play now the United
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States gets a full point I don't know if that's the fairs way to do it someone said maybe you have
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some sort of alternate and there's a couple of different scenarios maybe the highest ranked player
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on both teams that that didn't get picked sort of just stands by that to mean seems silly then what
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what was Brian Harming can to spend all week driving around in the golf carts is waiting for his
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opportunity on Sunday afternoon so I don't know if there's a good fix I will go back to the idea that
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everyone who seems to be upset about this by and large the vast majority of those people didn't
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ever clue what this was to begin with and those of us in the game that has been around this and
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and sort of understand exactly what it meant to go inside the envelope I I don't I didn't see
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what the problem was if I'm being quite framed this is the rule fall back on what Luke Donald said
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we we went by the rule and that that's the way it turns out now you can argue that yes it was a
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bit of a gut punch for the American side to start the day with the Europeans only needing two points
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instead of two and a half points doesn't sound like much but it certainly feels like you know a mountain
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if you're on the wrong side of that I just don't know what the possible fix could be yeah look it
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did sound a little bit like sour grapes from Keegan Bradley on Sunday night like this is part
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of the captains agreement and he signed off on it he agreed with it he probably thought just as
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every captain since 1993 his has thought that like okay I understand the rule but it's highly highly
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unlikely that this is going to need to be implemented and I do think it's sort of a fun little quirk
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you know like it's a it's an homage to a different era of the rider cup back in the late 70s you
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know one will fill with sportsmanship and honor and integrity and it's it's really just an
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exhibition and the general thought back in 1979 was that you don't want a player to risk further
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injury by having to subject himself to potentially 18 more holes if he's not physically fit
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enough to do so and so in an exhibition sure just give each team a half a point obviously the
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rider cup has evolved into something else but I'm not sure that you should necessarily abandon that
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where I think a lot of fans lie is that it's a little bit suspicious right like the European team
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was suspicious of what happened with Steve Payt in 1991 a lot of folks even on the US team Justin
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Thomas's reaction was captured on video of Victor Hovland not being able to play in Sunday singles
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knowing again that a half point on the European side puts them much closer to their goal of 14 points
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head Victor Hovland tried to go out with an injury he likely would have been unable to compete
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in all of a sudden the Europeans if given the choice say do you want to have the potential of
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zero points or when you two and half points from retaining the cup do you want to get just a half
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point so I understand the level of suspicion even if I think in this case it wasn't warranted like
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Victor Hovland clearly had an injury Victor Hovland could not play in Saturday four balls and he had
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to get an MRI and according to his doctor he could not move his neck left to right before team
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off like yeah he is legitimately injured and has bothered him for the past couple of months I would
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be fine as we look to sort of like potential fixes I would be fine with the soleheim cup rules you
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mentioned it's the exact same during team play where if it happens you know during four sums you
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have to forfeit if it happens during four balls that player can go solo if it happens before the
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match then someone who is not already playing can be subbed in as we saw with Terrell Hatton
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and Victor Hovland that Saturday afternoon four ball session in singles as you mentioned the full
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point does go to the other team but even that has happened on a very very rare occurrence 2011
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was the last time that happened it was actually our colleague at golf you know Karen Stupples
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who took advantage of Christie Kerr's WD Europe actually went on to win that week by two points what
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I do think is untenable is the idea of the substitute because we just talked about suspicion and whether
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you know there's a there's a valid reason why both teams should be getting a half a point there's
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a lot of suspicion of all of a sudden you have the option to use a substitute what if I don't know
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a hair singlish or a cow or a cow are not playing well at the rider cup could all of a sudden they
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feign an illness could all of a sudden they feign an injury and you're bringing all right let's let's
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bring in the right hander for Saturday afternoon four balls and and sort of study the ship all of a
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sudden I think that level of suspicion rises again and so I'm fine with keeping it I'd also be fine
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with the sole high cup rules as there are late to sunday singles but I honestly don't I don't
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feel strongly either way I just think the substitute rule of 13th man like is is absolutely not an
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option that's a non starter yeah it just didn't feel good although I'll go back to my previous
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argument when it comes to the crowds and things getting out of control at the rider cup if you
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want to inch closer and closer something closer to a mainstream sport which is what really the pg
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of america wants it's with the USGA wants with the pga tour ones and no other event can probably do it
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like the rider cup can we saw it last week even with a blowout you saw the level of interest
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in the new york air I mean it was sold out it was a madhouse every single day it's not as though
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even a blowout was going to soften what this meant to be I'll go back to the idea that if you
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want a mainstream sports it's sometimes there's gamesmanship involved so yeah maybe if a
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Harris English is not playing great in your in this universe in this scenario that you're throwing
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out there they do it in every other sport we see offensive lineman fall down all the time
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faking injuries to stop the clock or whatever the case may be I don't know that I would be
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entirely against that if we want to move in that direction but you're right I kind of look at
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what we've had now for a few decades and realize that it's clearly never been taken advantage of
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that no one has ever sat around and screamed about it like it like we seem to do be doing it now
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and you're only doing it because you didn't know about it at the beginning right and like
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victor hovelin was was devastated like I think we're we're overlooking that anyone who is
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suspicious of what happened like look down to the victor hovelin was nearly in tears when he
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decided that he couldn't go victor hovelin I was walking out there I was a couple of groups with him
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like the dude looked absolutely devastated he was not able to compete not able to put on the team
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uniform and not able to try to win when a full point for his team as they were trying to win the
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Roddo Cup like I think everyone legitimately feels bad I don't think I mean these are these are huge
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ego some of the best players in the world like the thought of of faking an injury or an illness so
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you don't play in Sunday singles is is just asinine to me and again this has rarely been used first
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time since 1993 I don't know that we necessarily need to overhaul the rules because of what has been
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a statistical anomaly I kind of like the the quirk of having a half point but I also wouldn't be
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fully opposed to surrendering the full point either if if that's what the captains feel is the
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best course of action but again I don't know maybe it's just a little bit of sentimentality
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I kind of like having the half point good hot I don't know I don't know I'm certainly
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strained in the fence on that I don't feel strongly either way I do think this substitute though
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is an absolutely horrible horrible idea all right spinning it ahead to 2027 a dare manor in Ireland
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in the future captaincy discussion luke-doll did not necessarily shoot down the idea that he would
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not represent team europe as the captain for the third consecutive rider cup what do you think
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the chances are Rex that we see luke-dolled run it back again and if not him who you think makes
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the most sense I think it's probably a statistical probability now that he's going to be the captain
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next time around he probably needs to if you look at what happened after Rome they waited until
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January the European tour to approach luke you know try to get him to convince him that given
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it another shot they'll probably do the same thing given him a couple months to sort of decompress
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and to think about what happened but I don't know that they have a better option and it just kind
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of depends on if he has it in him to go another two years we have seen how this has taken it out of
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him like now that we know what a brilliant captain he is he's a brilliant captain because he leaves
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nothing to chance and that's not easy that's a consuming job and now granted his day job is playing
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off and it doesn't seem to be interested in that at the moment but it is still a consuming job if
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he wants it the job is going to be his if not I think it opens up a possibility for a lot of interesting
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conversations when it comes to exactly what the DP World Tour wants to do because the DP World
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Tour much more so than the PGA Tour is at least cracked the door open for the Europeans who went to
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live golf to come back we certainly saw John Rom and Haton on the team they were embraced they
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produced their huge part of that team going forward could you imagine a similar scenario with
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some of the players who would have been in line to be captains had they not gone to live golf I'm
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talking about Ian Poulter and Sergio Garcia and Lee Westwood and even Graham McDowell given how
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it's going to be in Ireland I don't think that's out of the realm of possibility if Luke Donnell
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decides not to go isn't the arbitration panel though set to weigh in on the Terrell Haton and the
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John Rom rulings which have already if we're using precedent from a couple years ago like they're
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very likely to uphold those sanctions by the DP World Tour then it feels like we're we're back at
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square one all of a sudden they're going to need to rewrite some regulations all those it's not
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as draconian as it is on the PGA Tour on the PGA Tour it's a non starter there is no pathway back
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other than I guess Hudson Swoffer would be the example right now so essentially Hudson Swoffer
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wanted to come back to the PGA Tour after he was lit relegated off of live golf and it was
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essentially a two-year suspension and so that at least sets some sort of precedent if you were to
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have a player Dustin Johnson being the primary example here had Dustin Johnson not gone to live
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golf you would imagine he'd be a captain on the US side eventually but if he's going to do it it's
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probably a two-year process whereas on the European side I think it's much cleaner selfishly I mean
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I'd love to see Graham McDowell as the captain in in 2027 I don't know if the landscape of golf
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has shifted enough over the year to make that a tenable situation I'm with you that that Luke
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Donald does feel like a good bridge to the next generation the team itself would already be a
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massive favorite compete at home like the days the days of the European underdogs are are long gone
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particularly when they're playing on home soil I think the only counter to that though and why
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Luke Donald may not want to do it is what else does he have to prove does he really want to sacrifice
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two more years of his life and what happens if all of a sudden his team does not look as strong is
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all of a sudden his his legacy as perhaps the greatest Ryder Cup captain of all time is that somehow
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tainted if the Americans for the first time since 1993 come over and defeat the Europeans like I
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don't think there's necessarily much for him to improve or prove in that respect and so in the
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absence of Luke Donald again I think the betting market has Luke Donald as a prohibitive favorite
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at this point Justin Rose makes some sense Francesco Mollinari makes some sense Alex Noren who
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is a late addition as a vice captain the European side makes some sense as well I think you can nitpick
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with all of those potential suggestions which is why I still think Luke Donald's you're running
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back but those three players are sort of top of mind for me that if if not Luke who those three
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guys make sense and those are all valid points when it comes to Luke Donald because you're right what
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does he have to prove you've already won one home in a way it should not get any better than that do
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you want to dedicate another two years of your life being consumed by this thing all of those things
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makes sense to me but there has there been anything that Luke Donald has done over the last four
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years that lead you to believe that this is a selfish pursuit on any level and I'll go back to
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Sunday's press conference when he was pressed for what exactly makes you a good captain and he
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was really quick to dismiss it to the point that even Roy McAroy had to maybe cough cough off a
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little bit and be like come on now you're you're downplaying this too much he is a brilliant captain
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and I think it's because there has been no unselfishness whatsoever Justin Rose would be 47 years old
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when the rider cup rolls around in 2027 quite frankly he'd have to make that decision pretty soon the
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European side typically announces their next captain so it would be for 2027 in January or February
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at the latest Justin Rose like literally just went two and one in the rider cup he just won a
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fetish cup playoff event he's going to have full status in the PJ tour in 2027 I don't think J. Rose
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is quite ready quite yet but I do think as you look to Hazel team 2029 like it's hard to imagine
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another player at that point who would be more in line for a spot than Justin Rose. Well in my
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guess the DP World Tour watched really carefully what happened with Keegan Bradley this cycle about
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the idea is to have younger and younger captains because you can connect with your team you're out
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there on a regular basis with them the danger of that is what we saw with Keegan you end up with
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captain who faces an impossible decision should I play a should I captain should I try to do both so
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I'm sure they want to try to avoid that as well yeah I mean like credit to Justin Rose he's 45
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years old still doing it at a very high level but would not surprise me at all if he sustains that
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level of form and it's sort of a elite captain's pick for that 2027 squad how about on the American
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side Rex they they obviously went out of left field with the Keegan Bradley selection picking him
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as the captain despite never having a conversation with Keegan Bradley about whether he wanted to do
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the captaincy so who do you think is the line for 2027 and is it Keegan Bradley there was an
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interesting part of the interview we just ran with Derek Sprig it towards the end of it where I'm
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sort of asking specifically out in the interview was clearly just focused entirely on crowd behavior
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and how you keep it from happening again and he followed with what felt like a question more about
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the state of the US team sort of talking about being on that Rodicup community that was born from
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the task force from the disaster that was Tom Watson and the idea of trying to look ahead trying
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to come up with a better way of doing this you're absolutely right Keegan Bradley was a left field
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pick and I think right now we're going to spend probably the better part of the next two years trying
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to find ways to justify that I don't know if you possibly can I will go back to our conversation I
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think it was yesterday when I called you about something else but I was really quick to start the
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conversation with buddy you see who the betting favorite is for the American captain and I stumbed
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a little bit and said obviously Tiger and Tiger is the obvious choice here but no the betting
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favorite right now is Grant Snattaker which is interesting to me so it's Tiger Woods decision it's
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his job if he wants it so was this job this time around with Tiger Woods is he kind of kind of
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drug his feet a little bit so we ended up with Keegan Bradley I would lean towards Tiger taking it
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next time around for a couple of different reasons he didn't do it this time because he is
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way steep shoulder deep maybe neck deep and whatever's going on in the business of the PGA tour
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between the ongoing negotiations with the public investment fund and live golf between
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what Brian Rolap the new CEO wants to do with the PGA tour we all know Tiger Woods is obsessive
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when it comes to things that he wants to focus on he is hyper focused and in that particular moment
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in time he felt like he could not dedicate the time needed to both the PGA tour and being a
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captain my guess is by the time they approach him December January to do it again it will probably
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be a different scenario that the tour is in a different position I think at least in the short
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term we've all moved on from the idea that there's going to be a deal with the public investment
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fund and Brian Rolap seems to have the reins right now he seems to be steering the ship in the
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direction that he wants it so now if Tiger Woods has some disposable time and has the interest I
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think he will take the job for that reason and also the billionaire behind getting the rider cup
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to a dare manor and Ireland is JP Pupin Manus and Tiger Woods is very close with JP so I think all
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of those things factor into it if not I think Snetaker is probably the best plan B because you will
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also have the opportunity to see how he handles this next cycle as the US President's Cup captain
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look I hate comparing these two things they are too vastly different events but it gives you an idea
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of his leadership style so Tiger I and Brandt a distant two yeah I mean Brandt Snetaker
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2026 President's Cup captain does he have the dual roles and do it again for two entirely
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different organizations for two entirely different competitions for two entirely different formats
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sets of rules etc etc maybe some potential better cooperation better cohesion between those two
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events would be in the offing particularly if the conspiracy theory that I tried it out about
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20 minutes ago plays out a couple other names Rex that I would throw out like Stuart Sink I know
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Tiger Woods was the favorite to land the job he he ended up turning it down it seemed like it
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could potentially go to Stuart Sink before they went again out of left field maybe he gets another run
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he was sort of the task forcing you know playbook call where he was the vice captain and he saw
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how it went and he elevated him to a captaincy makes a lot of sense in that respect what doesn't
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seem like a good idea is to go really random again that did not work for Tom Watson it clearly
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didn't work for Keegan Bradley so a couple other players like a Justin Leonard I think makes a lot
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of sense who's the vice captain last year from 2024 President's Cup team a Rodic Cup hero on the
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excuse me on the on the US side I have seen some ideas Rex even even when that was trumpeted by
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Phil Mikkelsen who who to be clear said his involvement with with team USA is over he's happy doing
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what he's doing and just sitting on the sidelines and rooting for the Americans I've seen some ideas
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that they should go like the whole team USA route bring in you know motivational speakers slash
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leaders of men a coach K type who is so heralded for his work at Duke Phil Mikkelsen actually
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tried it out the name of of Lou Holtz who Wikipedia tells me would be 90 years old
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when they play the 2027 rider cup at a dare man or to me I don't understand this line of thinking
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at all that you need to go outside the golf space and find like a team sport coach how can
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American golfers be so devoid of leadership skills that you have to go completely outside the sport
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and completely outside the realms of of what is an individual pursuit in golf just find someone
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like the Europeans do over and over no over again I even in the ones that don't work out like they
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at least come from the same mold they come from the same style they come from the same playbook
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those people are organized they're professional they're data-minded they're good communicators
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how can no American golfer have that set of skills that's that's mind blowing to me I was texting
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with a colleague of ours I'll save you from calling him out on this one but to that point I think
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we get lost sometimes in the aftermath of these rider cups and become just ultimate prisoners
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the moment because it's important to point out that yes it seems like every European rider cup
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captain is just a genius on mince level however Nick Fowler was not a was an awful captain I think
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you can go down the list and pick out a couple more but just to name Nick Fowler there's also
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something to be said for the idea that loop don't is a brilliant tactician everything he does
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seems to work out I think history will show that at least as of now he faced probably two of the
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weaker captains in the US lineup and Zach Johnson in this time Keegan Bradley and look I'm not here
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to do the post-mortem on Keegan Bradley yet I think there's still plenty of that story to be told
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and to be learned however I think at first blush you can make the argument that yeah he was not the
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best and you look at some of the decisions that Zach Johnson made in Rome that we have since broken
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down clearly not the best I don't want to take anything away from loop Donald but the idea that
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we don't have our version of loop our version I'll pay the fine that the United States doesn't have
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their version apparently we don't have to do that anymore because we have a booth that fully
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embraces the idea of patriotism the idea that we don't have a loop Donald is ridiculous to me
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but the US hasn't found him yet they certainly haven't found him that's why I trumped the idea on
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Sunday podcast of giving Tiger essentially a four to six year term as the head of
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your series gonna be that good of a captain a right that good of a right a cup captain we know he
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was a good president's cup captain that's kind of where I wanted the conversation to go because we
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don't even really have proof that he would be good at the job right like you look at his playing
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record in the right a cup he was 13 21 and three he has never historically played well with others
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keep in mind in his one-stint as captain already when he was the playing captain 2019 the president's
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cup they nearly lost that one that would have been just their second defeat ever in the presence
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cup would have been a humiliating defeat for Tiger who was the playing captain that week instead
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he played phenomenally well and let it inspired come back in Sunday singles but I do think
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for 2027 three things are working in Tiger's favor one as you pointed out he now has the time
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he's no longer a full-time player he's gonna be over the age of 50 he's not going to need to be
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devoting himself you would think to the politics and the bureaucracy of the peugeotor as he
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apparently was doing last year when the announcement was made number two he'd be able to give it his
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all Tiger Woods does not want to be viewed as a failure he tip he in if anything he wants to be
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viewed as a hero and as a savior he is still beloved by all the Tiger babies who constitute
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these US teams he would have the respect of them he would be able to dictate sort of directions
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and what he wants them to do I think that was one of the one of the issues with with Keegan Bradley
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right like he he made a poor choice in having Kalmorkawa and Harris English to begin with so he sent
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them out it was a disaster I think Keegan Bradley if he was looking in we would have I think he
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would admit that he had a hard time telling Kalmorkawa and Harris English who are peers of his
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on the peugeotor you guys are not playing well enough you need to sit out that is a very uncomfortable
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conversation to have peer-to-peer player-to-player on the peugeotor Tiger Woods because he's now removed
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from the everyday going coming and going to the peugeotor I don't think would have that problem
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and I think there would be a a level of of respect that he would command that potentially a player
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like a Keegan Bradley did not and three Tiger Woods fancies himself as a top tier stratification
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assuming a strategist and a statistician who would turn over every stone yes I just combined two
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words yes the Tiger Woods is a top tier strategist who would turn over every stone because if you're
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looking at the Americans like they really need to look at their data team it's because either Keegan
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Bradley was willfully ignoring scouts ink or he was given really horrible information and I tend
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to think that it was the latter in any case they got lapped by a watermelon Ari's team roughly
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ten and eight in that regard and so Tiger Woods potentially overhauling that as well so I think for
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those three reasons it makes a lot of sense even if again to your point we don't have any tangible
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proof that he would actually be good this gig but I think he would like I'm not sitting here saying
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that no I don't think he's going to be a brilliant captain because I do look at what he did in
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Australia and you're right it was close however I remember going into those matches thinking to
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myself that if the international team is ever going to have a chance it's got to be here it was
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as close to a home field as that international team is going to get it seemed like the captains were
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pulling all the right strings it seemed like their team was informed so I think Tiger being a
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playing captain proved that he at least has the capacity to to wrap his mind around the team
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concept is he going to be looped on we're going to have to find that one out. Well we did it Rex
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we did 52 minutes at least Sunday recap podcast but an hour long debrief on the entire rider cup
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fallout is the gift that keeps on giving that's why we pour so much of ourselves into covering it
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all year long because it is so interesting there is so much strategy and there is so much second
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guessing which always makes for a lot of fun in the individual sport like golf all right that is
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going to do it for this edition of the golf show podcast with Rex and Lab you guys are the
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drill mucsports.com slash golf aka golf channel.com which is such an undergo a new launch soon in the
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meantime thanks for listening thanks for support we'll talk to you guys next week.