Raven Maragh-Lloyd on Black Networked Resistance

Interactive Transcript

spk_0 Welcome to Imagine Otherwise, the podcast about bridging art, activism, and academia to build

spk_0 more just futures.

spk_0 I'm Kathy Hanoverk, and today I'm talking with Media Studies scholar Raven Mirage Lloyd

spk_0 about the historical contours of Black Digital Resistance.

spk_0 The Ideas on Fire team was honored to work with Raven on her new book Black Network to Resistance,

spk_0 Strategic Rearticulations in the Digital Age.

spk_0 This book offers an insightful analysis of how Black technology users adapt and reshape

spk_0 resistance strategies and forge Black publics in the digital era.

spk_0 The book is out now from the University of California Press.

spk_0 In our conversation, Raven and I chat about how digital resistance is best understood as

spk_0 a creative process rather than just an outcome of specific digital practices, and specifically

spk_0 how Black communities create and sustain that process across different time periods and platforms.

spk_0 We dive into a bunch of different examples of this, everything from Instagram archiving

spk_0 around Juneteenth and Black Women's Network of Care in online forums to the politics of

spk_0 cancel culture and where Black Twitter is migrating in the wake of the platform's demise.

spk_0 We close out the episode with Raven's vision for a critical hopefulness in digital spaces,

spk_0 a critical hopefulness that reckons with the violences of the past and forges more just futures.

spk_0 Thank you so much for being with us today.

spk_0 Thank you for having me.

spk_0 So in this amazing new book, you examine a pretty wide range of creative resistance strategies

spk_0 deployed by Black Digital Media Makers, and what I find particularly interesting is you focus on

spk_0 the process of resistance rather than just the outcomes of that resistance.

spk_0 What does that emphasis on process do and what are some of your favorite examples that you found

spk_0 in your research?

spk_0 Yeah, so resistance as process for me helps us to connect and reflect on the past with the present.

spk_0 I think especially when it comes to technology and digital technology, we tend to think that every

spk_0 issue is brand new or this is the first time we're seeing something, but Black publics have long been

spk_0 showing us the different faces of, for example, oppression for a long time. So the aim might have

spk_0 changed when it comes to resistance, but the process is actually quite ingrained to a particular

spk_0 group's history. One of my favorite examples is from the cancel culture chapter where I trace the

spk_0 history of canceling and I'm in conversation with brilliant folks. I can hear it with Clark,

spk_0 who write about this. There were strategies in the 1960s like economic divestment and boycotting,

spk_0 the don't buy where you can't work campaign in Chicago or selective patronage in Philadelphia,

spk_0 and these economic divestment strategies moved then into attention divestment online, what we

spk_0 understand is canceling. So, you know, taking our attention away from somebody like Cardi B,

spk_0 who was going through accusations of sexual assault at the time. So connecting the past in the

spk_0 present is one thing. And then the second thing when it comes to resistance as process, I think that

spk_0 framework acts as a sort of archive for online Black resistance efforts. I purposefully in the book

spk_0 use resistance over activism throughout the book because many of the strategies I examine aren't

spk_0 traditional activist strategies like organizing or economic divestment. The resistance efforts that

spk_0 I think on the face are easily written off as just jokes or they're made invisible like the

spk_0 care networks of Black women. So for me, this is a sort of academic legitimation of these kinds of

spk_0 non-traditional resistance efforts. And I say academic because Black women care networks

spk_0 have been legitimate and these women know their legitimate, but I think in our spaces of academia,

spk_0 it's important to archive and make legitimate these resistance efforts.

spk_0 So in the chapter about Instagram archiving around June 15th, you write that quote,

spk_0 archiving interrupts by allowing for a collection of the past to be read through multiple lenses

spk_0 in the present and the future end quote. And this gets at that temporality question that you were

spk_0 just mentioning. What are some of the ways that Instagram archivists and other kinds of digital

spk_0 archivists that you look at mobilize platforms as a method of resistance? That's such a good question.

spk_0 I enjoyed writing about Instagram. I don't think we give as much attention to

spk_0 visuality perhaps as we should because text sometimes is more prominent in some of our research.

spk_0 Instagram gives us the visual aspects of a platform that I argue Black publics mobilize.

spk_0 So in thinking about June 15th, we bring history to life. These Black historians that I analyzed

spk_0 brought photos from the 1800s into a context of the 21st century where we were seeing these

spk_0 historical figures. I call them like serving face. Like we see them in the in the cultural landscape

spk_0 of selfies and like the interiority and intimacy of Instagrams. So it's moving these museum-like

spk_0 photos into that every day. And then the second thing is the interactive features of Instagram. So

spk_0 the ability to add prominent figures into these conversations that we've seen in digital media

spk_0 research when it comes to Twitter or X. But I saw a lot of these Black digital historians adding

spk_0 Republican senators, for example, around certain bills that were being passed at the time. And so

spk_0 there was this element of interfacing with public prominent figures that often gets overlooked

spk_0 when it comes to Instagram. When I get we can go back to what you were saying about cancel

spk_0 culture because I think obviously this is a topic that a lot of people have thoughts on.

spk_0 Often divergent thoughts on even within the same person. But I think you treat it really

spk_0 interestingly in this book both naming it as a resistance strategy as it clearly is. But also

spk_0 teasing out how digital media affordances lay a role in how cancel culture works and who uses it

spk_0 and it's effects like that. So I'm curious how affordances like scalability, persistence,

spk_0 those kinds of things shape that particular form of resistance strategy and the impact that it has.

spk_0 Yeah. This was an interesting chapter for me. I forget if I said it in the book that I wanted to do

spk_0 anything else, but write about cancel culture. I did not want to do it. Exactly because of what you

spk_0 say. Like it's so divergent in terms of people's opinions and complex. But I had to contend with

spk_0 the complexities of canceling and cancel culture because I'm writing about resistance online.

spk_0 And so in some way I treat canceling and cancel culture as showcasing some of the limitations

spk_0 of digital resistance online because it's messy, right? It's not as straightforward many times as

spk_0 we like to think. So in terms of the affordances of scalability and persistence with scalability or

spk_0 visibility and I'm writing with folks at Dana Boyd here, scalability gives us a greater range

spk_0 of visibility. When you hit post, your followers can see what you post, right? And depending on

spk_0 how public or private your profile is, you can be retweeted. You can be searched for.

spk_0 You can even like move beyond just your followers to a whole host of other people you have no idea

spk_0 about. But also you can be screenshot, right? And like you have no idea where your post ends up.

spk_0 So the visibility of these affordances are definitely heightened when it comes to social network

spk_0 sites. So this high visibility I write about in the chapter adds an interesting element when it comes

spk_0 to holding someone in power accountable. Like all of a sudden it's not just one person entering

spk_0 into the conversation of, for example, hashtag me to we've got millions of people and there's some

spk_0 sort of importance and power when it comes to visibility like that. But at the same time,

spk_0 this high visibility gets confusing maybe when we don't have fact checkers to certain situations,

spk_0 we see folks on the alt-right who have co-opted conversations like me to with this exact

spk_0 peace in mind or when the situation is still developing. And there's a lot of conversation,

spk_0 sort of like with R. Kelly, which folks like Brianna Barnard have written about when it comes to

spk_0 holding each other accountable and also grappling with a very public

spk_0 tear downs of Black men. Like there's a whole history of this that we absolutely should hold

spk_0 him accountable. And there's the complex piece of race loyalty that when it comes to cancer culture,

spk_0 we're dealing with in unique ways. So that's scalability and then persistence or permanence.

spk_0 We know that online content sticks around and that's why platforms like Snapchat were so

spk_0 powerful or so popular in the beginning anyway because for the first time we're seeing

spk_0 the popularization of a platform where content just in theory anyway just goes away. We're like,

spk_0 whoa, what happens? And content is not permanent anymore. So in this sense we can hold people accountable,

spk_0 people empower accountable for their past actions because of this affordance of permanence.

spk_0 But again, there's complications here because this brings questions about

spk_0 somebody's growth and this gets into the divergent piece you mentioned. Like even within ourselves

spk_0 we're confused. Like how do I feel about cancer culture? Because are we saying we can't grow from

spk_0 the past? I don't think it's a black and white issue. It's not a good or bad black and white issue,

spk_0 but it's complex. You talk a lot in the book about Black Twitter and for obvious reasons and you

spk_0 point out how central Twitter has been and Black Twitter in particular to the resistant strategies

spk_0 that you analyze. And I think you also show much broader conversations about what digital media can

spk_0 do for marginalized groups. I'm really curious to know where you see those resistant strategies

spk_0 or frameworks going in the future, particularly given the mast demise of Twitter or X. And I know

spk_0 this is, you know, everyone's getting this question right now, but I think it's interesting to

spk_0 think through. Like where does all that energy go? Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, Black Twitter

spk_0 came about at a particular time and using a particular platform and its influences, such as

spk_0 the short character limits at the onset in the early 2000s. Folks like Andre Brock have written

spk_0 about Black folks retrofitting our linguistic styles, such as call and response into the short

spk_0 character limits. So that's what made Black Twitter what it is, what we know it to be now. Meredith

spk_0 Clark has a book on Black Twitter coming out, which I'm so excited about. But the bigger picture

spk_0 of Black folks coming around and coalescing around particular media platforms is not new.

spk_0 We see that Black folks rejuvenate time and time again and across multiple media platforms,

spk_0 whether we're talking about the Black press or we're talking about social network sites. We see

spk_0 this sort of rejuvenation time and time again. And so what I hope that the book shows is that

spk_0 Black Twitter or Twitter X can come and go. But the cultural makeup of marginalized groups

spk_0 move across platforms. We know that these platforms were never here to serve us to begin with.

spk_0 And so with that in mind, we've retrofit our, for example, linguistic practices to a particular

spk_0 platform with the knowledge that that platform might not be here tomorrow. I hope that answers

spk_0 that question. Yeah, definitely. I mean, especially since so many of the platforms that

spk_0 claim to potentially replace Twitter, like we don't know where they're going to go either. Right?

spk_0 So like we invest in them tentatively in different ways and different communities do it to

spk_0 different degrees. But who knows what it's going to be tomorrow. Exactly. Yeah. So I think it's

spk_0 just helpful to like take the birds I view on that one. Like it's less about the platform and more

spk_0 about our cultural practices. One of my favorite chapters of this book you alluded to earlier a bit.

spk_0 It looks at Black women's networks of care in these digital spaces. And you point out that this

spk_0 is a topic that is largely absent in most of the debates around the politics of technology and

spk_0 resistance and digital media. What are some of those strategies at work in those networks of care?

spk_0 And how do you see them pushing back on some of the violence or potential

spk_0 violences of digital media? Yeah. This chapter came about through focus group data at two

spk_0 different points in time. So it was 2017 when I was finishing up my dissertation and then again

spk_0 in 2021. And those times are I think important when we're thinking about post mic brown in 2017.

spk_0 And then post 2020 and 2021. I was really interested in talking to women who don't consider

spk_0 themselves traditional activists, but found themselves in the realm of digital media doing something

spk_0 at these particular moments in time. And so what came up time and time again was this idea of

spk_0 care. For example, the women across both focus groups talked about using the knowledge of

spk_0 the algorithm in 2021. It was mostly TikTok in 2017. It was mostly Twitter.

spk_0 Using the knowledge of the algorithm to support and make visible other Black women and fams.

spk_0 So particularly at times where we're seeing the reproducibility of Black Death. I'm thinking of

spk_0 Tommy of Sutherland's work here. These Black women make content visible that challenge the

spk_0 reproducibility of Black Death. They explain that they know that algorithms favor content that is

spk_0 highly emotional and highly spreadable. And so what the women do is make sure to do something as

spk_0 simple as reproduce content that challenges subjugation and death. And I thought that was beautiful.

spk_0 The second thing I noticed across the focus groups was the Black women talking about not talking

spk_0 back, particularly online when we have information overload. We have lots of hot takes about

spk_0 everything. And the women mentioned the burden to educate others, especially when you hold

spk_0 a marginalized position. You see something on your online. You're like, no, that's not what it is.

spk_0 That's not my experience. And some of the women even mentioned being castigated for not posting,

spk_0 for example, in 2020, not putting the Black Square out. And what they mentioned was, I'm going to

spk_0 release that. Release the burden to educate others. I love the metaphor that one of the women

spk_0 mentioned, which was double dutch. She mentions, like, should I go in or should I not go in?

spk_0 Another woman mentioned, like, I'm just going to close shop, right? So these Black women were

spk_0 well aware of the landscape that they had to deal with on an offline. And they took agency and said,

spk_0 I'm not talking back. I thought that was interesting, especially thinking through works like Bell Hooks,

spk_0 who writes about talking back. Like, there's an agency here and not talking back. And then the last

spk_0 thing I do in the chapter is thinking through care online as political and communal through the

spk_0 histories of Black feminism and Black Square feminism, rather than solely individualized. And I'm

spk_0 thinking through individualization through the frame of digital neoliberalism. So in the chapter,

spk_0 I write about the iPhone, for example, and the onus that is put on the individual to limit our

spk_0 screen time. Like, it's our job to make sure that we move away from technology to take care of

spk_0 ourselves. And this is a very individualized notion of care. Same thing. And when we think about the

spk_0 market of selling self care, right? Like, somehow we can reach care by buying things. And so from a Black

spk_0 queer feminist perspective, thinking through works like Jennifer Nash's love politics were Audrey

spk_0 Lorde, Adrian Marie Brown, company he river collected Bell Hooks, Black feminists have long written

spk_0 about the self as inextricably tied to the whole. And that's what I saw come up in these

spk_0 focus curves. The women mentioned what I do or don't do impacts other Black women. That's the

spk_0 algorithm example I gave earlier. So yeah, those are some of the themes that came up in that chapter.

spk_0 This brings me to my favorite question that really gets at the heart of why you do this kind of

spk_0 research and why you write these kind of books and why you talk with students about these kinds of

spk_0 issues. What is the world that you're working toward? What kind of world do you want? Yeah,

spk_0 this was good. This was a good question that took me a minute to like really sit with. I'd say

spk_0 critical hopefulness. I hope that this book and my work builds on folks like Bell Hooks and

spk_0 thinking about critical hopefulness. I want to pay attention and I want to do the work of critiquing

spk_0 things like digital neoliberalism. But I also want to do the work of being hopeful about the present

spk_0 and the future. And do the work of hopeful imagination. I love Ruha Benjamin's new book,

spk_0 Ground Imagination. And I think about this work that you're doing, Kathy and this podcast. It's

spk_0 all about imagining. I love that. Well, thank you so much for being with us and for writing this

spk_0 awesome book. There'll be links to it in the show notes for this episode. And thanks for sharing

spk_0 all these ways that you imagine otherwise. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

spk_0 Thanks for joining me for this episode of Imagine Otherwise. A big thanks to Raven as well

spk_0 for sharing her work. Our team had a blast working with Raven on our book Black Network

spk_0 Resistance, which is out now from the University of California Press. You can discover more about the

spk_0 book and grab your copy in the episode show notes on our website, which also have a detailed

spk_0 transcript related books and interviews and a teaching guide for this episode. If you'd like

spk_0 some interdisciplinary editing or indexing support for your own book, we would love to hear from you.

spk_0 Our team of developmental editors, copy editors, indexers, book marketers, and publishing

spk_0 consultants specialize in interdisciplinary books like Ravens and can help you go from draft to

spk_0 published. You can get in touch on our website at ideasonfire.net. This episode of Imagine Otherwise

spk_0 was produced and edited by me, Kathy Hanabak. If this episode inspired you, make sure to subscribe

spk_0 to the show at ideasonfire.net.slashpodcast. In addition to new episodes, subscribers also get access

spk_0 to exclusive writing and publishing resources, book news from the ideas on fire author community,

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spk_0 like this one, and ultimately build more just worlds.

Raven Maragh-Lloyd on Black Networked Resistance

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