Princeton President Talks Kirk, Trump, ‘Civic Crisis’

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spk_0 This is College Matters from The Chronicle.

spk_0 How do you have an inclusive conversation when you've got people brought together from

spk_0 lots of different backgrounds?

spk_0 Is it okay to wear a Halloween costume that effectively makes fun of somebody else's

spk_0 background or if we're trying to create a set of circumstances at college where people

spk_0 respect one another and feel respected and included and can speak up?

spk_0 Is that a problem?

spk_0 In the long-running debate over free speech on college campuses, the recent killing of conservative

spk_0 activists Charlie Kirk qualifies as an earthquake.

spk_0 For those who have long argued that colleges are hostile toward right-leaning viewpoints,

spk_0 Kirk's fatal shooting during a campus-speaking engagement provided a powerful piece of symbolic

spk_0 evidence.

spk_0 Arguably not since the 1960s, has the debate over free speech on college campuses

spk_0 felt quite this white hot.

spk_0 And that's just one reason that Christopher Eisgruber is such a compelling figure at this

spk_0 pivotal moment.

spk_0 As President of Princeton University and a scholar of constitutional law, Eisgruber has thought

spk_0 deeply about campus speech issues.

spk_0 And this week he's released a new book on the subject, Terms of Respect, How Colleges

spk_0 Get Free Speech Right.

spk_0 Today on the show, we'll talk with Eisgruber about the Kirk shooting, the state of free speech

spk_0 on college campuses, and his deep concerns about the Trump administration's targeting of

spk_0 colleges including his own.

spk_0 Christopher Eisgruber, welcome to College Matters.

spk_0 Thank you Jack, it's great to be with you.

spk_0 You've just published a book on free speech and I want to talk to you about that, but

spk_0 we're speaking at a very tense moment in the country that's tied to this issue.

spk_0 As you know, on September 10th, conservative activist Charlie Kirk was shot and killed

spk_0 during a campus-speaking engagement for people who are concerned about campus speech and campus

spk_0 safety.

spk_0 This really is the nightmare scenario.

spk_0 Has this event changed your views at all about the state of free speech on college campuses,

spk_0 or would it have changed your book in any way if it had happened before you published

spk_0 it?

spk_0 Well, look, the killing of Charlie Kirk is obviously in a horrible tragedy.

spk_0 It's something, a matter of great sadness for his family, for the many people who knew

spk_0 him and were affected by him and for our country.

spk_0 With that said, Jack, I don't think it changes the principles that I talk about in terms

spk_0 of respect.

spk_0 Those are basic principles about free speech and about our commitment to equality and how

spk_0 those two things work together that matter to our country and to our college campuses,

spk_0 whatever happens.

spk_0 There are going to be changes as we go forward to some of the practical circumstances

spk_0 that colleges face.

spk_0 All of us have had to raise our game around things like security at events in the past.

spk_0 I expect that's going to become even more fraught in the future.

spk_0 The basic things that I say in the book about the need for colleges to be committed to

spk_0 free speech about the need to be committed to diversity and inclusivity about how those

spk_0 work together to create a speech environment on campus and the need for all of us to be

spk_0 civil and respectful.

spk_0 That's all true still.

spk_0 The other thing I would add, Jack, is that a lot of what I focus on when I talk about

spk_0 the existence of a civic crisis in America, not just on college campuses, but affecting

spk_0 college campuses, this is one more really sad and tragic data point in that history.

spk_0 Your book goes through a number of different examples, but a lot of them have a similar

spk_0 flavor, which is there is some hot button issue on a college campus.

spk_0 Someone says something perhaps in politic, what is an institution to do?

spk_0 Obviously just to stick on Kirk for another second.

spk_0 One of the things we've seen in the wake of this tragedy is colleges feeling pressured

spk_0 to respond when people on the campus say something perhaps in politic about Kirk's tragic

spk_0 death.

spk_0 Generally speaking, do you see it as a problem if professors are fired or sanctioned

spk_0 for saying things about Kirk in this case?

spk_0 Absolutely, that's a problem.

spk_0 Academic freedom has multiple components to it.

spk_0 Your freedom to do scholarship, your freedom to teach as you wish and a freedom of extramural

spk_0 speech that is important.

spk_0 I think we have to be very concerned whenever we see people fired because they are making

spk_0 controversial comments.

spk_0 One of the things I say in the book is that we need to be careful when we talk about

spk_0 any specific controversy to make sure that we understand what the facts of that controversy

spk_0 are.

spk_0 Jack, I think you're absolutely right.

spk_0 We have seen in the wake of this event some relatively rash, I would say, actions where

spk_0 people seem to be punished for speech that whether you agree with it or not and whether

spk_0 you think it was appropriate or not was within the ambit of free speech.

spk_0 So yes, absolutely.

spk_0 We need to be good word.

spk_0 Let's shift to your book, which ties directly to this conversation that has flowed from the

spk_0 Kirk tragedy.

spk_0 Your book, Terms of Respect, makes a nuanced argument about speech on college campuses.

spk_0 And you cite a few examples that might be described as infringements on speech.

spk_0 By and large though, my takeaway from your book is that you fundamentally disagree that

spk_0 there's a major or systemic free speech problem in higher education today.

spk_0 Do I have that right?

spk_0 That's correct, Jack.

spk_0 Look, I say there's a civic crisis in the United States today and colleges are not exempt

spk_0 from it.

spk_0 And on the contrary, we have a special responsibility to be making sure that meaningful

spk_0 robust conversation about difficult topics is taking place on our campuses because that's

spk_0 so central to our mission.

spk_0 So in some ways that crisis that makes it hard for all Americans to talk to one another

spk_0 is especially important to colleges.

spk_0 But I think colleges have gotten a bad rap.

spk_0 And so far as people claim that there is a crisis that is unique to those campuses or

spk_0 that there is something wrong with the way students today approach free speech.

spk_0 I don't think that's true.

spk_0 And as you know, there are a number of cases that people point to where things went terribly

spk_0 wrong and I talk about things like the Judge Duncan's speech, Judge Kyle Duncan's

spk_0 speech at Stanford Law School or the event involving the political scientist Charles Murray

spk_0 in Allyson Stanger at Middlebury College.

spk_0 But those events get repeated again and again in commentaries about what happens at

spk_0 college campus.

spk_0 And these are instances in which students shouted down the speaker or wouldn't let them

spk_0 talk right?

spk_0 Absolutely.

spk_0 At Stanford, Kyle Duncan got shouted down and administrator intervened in a way that

spk_0 was actually not helpful and seemed to suggest there was some legitimacy to the shouting

spk_0 down.

spk_0 And I would note that after that, Jenny Martinez, who was at the time the Dean of the Law

spk_0 School and sent out a letter that was a very good letter about the importance of free

spk_0 speech.

spk_0 But that event was an embarrassing event.

spk_0 And it is a data point about something going wrong on a college campus.

spk_0 And at Middlebury College with Charles Murray and Allyson Stanger, there was an event where

spk_0 they were not only shouted down and prevented from continuing their conversation, but physically

spk_0 assaulted and injured as a result of what happened there.

spk_0 So those are utterly unacceptable, right?

spk_0 And the level of incidents like that at college campuses should be zero.

spk_0 And we should be concerned anytime something like that happens.

spk_0 But having said that, 99.8% of what goes on on college campuses are conversations that

spk_0 matter that don't have those kinds of disruptions.

spk_0 And that's taking place at a time when there's a real inability of Americans generally to

spk_0 talk to one another across political lines.

spk_0 So I think what's going on is much better than what people give colleges credit for.

spk_0 Fair enough.

spk_0 And at risk of opening the door to some pretty walkie-stuff with you here, Chris, one of the

spk_0 recurring themes in your book is that a lot of our national disagreements over speech

spk_0 aren't really about censorship at all in your view.

spk_0 They're a debate over what you describe as the norms of civility.

spk_0 Can you talk about the difference between the norms of civility and censorship and why

spk_0 that's important?

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 One of the big themes of the book is that we need to understand what free speech is for.

spk_0 You can have a lot of free speech and not have any civil discussion.

spk_0 If everybody is talking and mocking and insulting one another, there's plenty of free speech,

spk_0 but there's no real civil discourse.

spk_0 What we need to have on college campuses in America is a constructive discussion where

spk_0 people are able to talk to one another across differences.

spk_0 And some of the controversies that people get very excited about, as you say, Jack, are

spk_0 not about censorship.

spk_0 They're about the terms of respect.

spk_0 They're about the rules that allow people to talk to one another respectfully across

spk_0 differences.

spk_0 So one example that I go into in some detail in the book is a pretty famous one about

spk_0 Halloween costumes and a message about Halloween costumes at Yale back in, I think, around

spk_0 2015.

spk_0 Right.

spk_0 So the administration sends out a message saying, look, think carefully before you put

spk_0 on a Halloween costume that mocks somebody else's culture.

spk_0 Erica Christakis, who is one of the heads of college, I think, at Cilliman College,

spk_0 sends out a message and responds to students saying, well, whatever happened to the freedom

spk_0 to be offensive in college, the students get very upset and say, or some students do

spk_0 and say, this is our whole, but we, you know, you're not taking seriously the real harms

spk_0 that come from offensive speech.

spk_0 Eventually, they call for the Cillimans to be removed as masters of the college.

spk_0 Everything that I've described so far is an exercise of free speech, not an interference

spk_0 with it.

spk_0 It is an argument about what it means for people to be respectful for one another.

spk_0 How do you have an inclusive conversation when you've got people brought together from

spk_0 lots of different backgrounds?

spk_0 Is it okay to wear a Halloween costume that effectively makes fun of somebody else's

spk_0 background or if we're trying to create a set of circumstances at college where people

spk_0 respect one another and feel respected and included and can speak up, is that a problem?

spk_0 You can take various positions about that, but none of that's about censorship.

spk_0 It's about what it means for us to be civil to one another.

spk_0 It's an important argument, but it's an entirely legitimate argument within the American

spk_0 tradition of free speech.

spk_0 I'm so glad you brought up the Yale case because I think a lot of people do remember it.

spk_0 And again, as you say, it's sort of this warning that went out to students, hey, before

spk_0 you put on a feathered headdress or a turban or a black face, you know, think about the

spk_0 real impact that might have on people's cultural heritage, how it might be received, whether

spk_0 you might be photographed and later regret it, that sort of thing.

spk_0 But the Yale case may not be about censorship, but I do think it is part of the

spk_0 vociferous response, particularly from conservatives, was that it was seen as an example of rampant

spk_0 political correctness on college campuses, which is imposed in the name of cultural sensitivity

spk_0 or even DEI as we would talk about it now. You can say, well, the Yale deans were just offering

spk_0 some sage advice, you know, think before you act or not saying what you can or can't wear.

spk_0 Are they not endorsing or inculcating a sort of hypersensitivity among students saying,

spk_0 you're right to be offended or even emotionally wounded by someone's costume? That that

spk_0 seemed to be as much what the outrage was about as whether this was a clear cut first amendment case.

spk_0 So first of all, I think it's important just to be clear about what the issues are, right?

spk_0 Not about free speech, but about civility and what it means. And people can disagree about that.

spk_0 But, Jack, let me offer a different perspective on what's going on with that. I don't think any of us

spk_0 want to give offense unnecessarily to other people. Part of learning to have civil discussions

spk_0 is learning to be polite and not give offense. Certainly, if I were in a situation where

spk_0 something that I was doing that I thought might just be ingest would give offense to others who

spk_0 come from a background different from mine. I would want to know about that. It would want the

spk_0 opportunity to think about that. As I say in the book, there are politicians. I think about

spk_0 Governor Ralph Northam of Virginia and Prime Minister Justin Trudeau of Canada, both of whom were

spk_0 photographed during your younger years in Blackface who might have appreciated a heads up from

spk_0 somebody saying, you know, think about what this means to other people. From my standpoint,

spk_0 it's actually a pretty good thing that there are lots of jokes that people used to tell that

spk_0 were offensive to and exclusionary toward people of minority backgrounds that we just don't say

spk_0 anymore. And from my standpoint, that's better because we're looking for a set of circumstances where

spk_0 people coming together from a lot of different backgrounds can feel respected and feel the respect

spk_0 they need to be able to speak up. But the other thing I say in the book is that you can disagree

spk_0 with me about that position, right? And say, well, somehow that just doesn't matter to inclusivity.

spk_0 It doesn't matter if some people are offended and maybe there are some people who don't care about

spk_0 that. Those are arguments that are consistent with free speech. And part of what we need to

spk_0 recognize is that those arguments are going to go on on a college campus and in America. We got a

spk_0 lot of them right now coming from both sides. I feel like bringing up Kirk here makes some sense

spk_0 because this is one of the things that sort of happened in the fall out there is he has been

spk_0 held up, I think, by the right is a champion of free speech. But if you talk to people on college

spk_0 campuses, they would say this is a person who who added some noxious tenor to our speech on campus.

spk_0 And that in and of itself was a problem. Have you thought about that at all?

spk_0 Jack, I think there are lots of perspectives here about the Kirk episode that are relevant to what

spk_0 you and I are talking about and interesting connections to what happened at Yale. So first of all,

spk_0 the two things that you just said about Kirk can both be true, right? He can be a proponent of

spk_0 free speech and a vigorous proponent of free speech. And I think he was. And it's also possible

spk_0 that he could be saying some noxious things about other people. And what I say in the book is that

spk_0 colleges and our country have a responsibility simultaneously to protect free speech. And to

spk_0 respond if noxious things about other people in some other way than censorship. And let's go back

spk_0 I think it was the first or second question you asked me about Kirk where you

spk_0 you mentioned that people were being fired for saying disrespectful things about him.

spk_0 Firing is wrong. But there's a real argument about what it means to speak respectfully about

spk_0 another person. Now we're seeing some of these arguments raised from the other side in effect

spk_0 that is the other side of the political spectrum where people are saying, hey, it's important to be

spk_0 respectful of this man who has been horribly murdered. And it's important to be respectful

spk_0 for example of conservative opinions and positions on campus. And we've seen over the past year

spk_0 lots of arguments about how important it is to be respectful full of

spk_0 Jewish students or proponents of Zionism on campus. That claim about respect is really important

spk_0 because we should be respectful of one another.

spk_0 Stick around. We'll be back in a minute.

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spk_0 You are a product of higher education in a lot of ways. I think you're a fan of higher education

spk_0 and it's best for you. No doubt about it. Fair to say. You've been a defender of it.

spk_0 I am a champion of higher education. I believe in it. It's been important to my life. I think it's

spk_0 been important to our country. I think we should be proud of what higher education does.

spk_0 What I'm curious about though is when I read your book, I think it makes a very

spk_0 cogent and nuanced argument. I should tell people it's a very accessible book even though it gets

spk_0 into a lot of interesting legal history. But when I look at it, I think some people might

spk_0 look at this and say, this is kind of letting higher ed off the hook. Let me unpack that a little bit.

spk_0 You flag a couple of these isolated cases that are problematic. We've talked about them already.

spk_0 Charles Murray at Miltaberry, the Stanford Incident. But you say students should not occupy buildings

spk_0 or break rules during protests. But if they do, you think colleges should probably punish them

spk_0 lightly. You don't really think that people on college campuses, self-sensor more than Americans do

spk_0 generally. And I know that you came at all these opinions after real rigorous study. But are you

spk_0 concerned at all that you might be going a little too easy on this sector because you're a fan?

spk_0 No, Jack. I think I know the sector well. And that is why I believe in it. But let's be clear,

spk_0 I'm not the only person who believes in what we're doing in higher education, right? Our universities

spk_0 and colleges in the United States are magnets for talent. They're magnets for talent from around

spk_0 our country. They're magnets for talent from around the world. People dream about coming to this

spk_0 country and coming to our great universities and colleges in order to get an education. Those

spk_0 colleges and universities lead the world in terms of the kinds of contributions that they make to

spk_0 scientific research and to the humanities. They produce a fabulous return on investment, both in

spk_0 economic and non-economic terms. And so I actually think there's something a bit odd that people

spk_0 run down these colleges and universities that do such extraordinary things for our country and for

spk_0 the people who are a part of them by pointing to some of these incidents that are kind of on the

spk_0 periphery of what happens at colleges and universities. Well, and you've been, I think, I wouldn't say

spk_0 necessarily unique, but you've been among a small group of college presidents who I think have been

spk_0 very vocal during this second Trump administration about the importance of higher education and the

spk_0 degree to which you see it under threat given the Trump administration's posture toward the sector.

spk_0 In March, you wrote a much discussed piece in the Atlantic saying that what was happening in higher

spk_0 education relative to the Trump administration is, quote, the greatest threat to American universities

spk_0 since the red scare of the 1950s. It's strong language. As you know, the Trump administration

spk_0 is threatened to withhold hundreds of millions of dollars in federal funding from universities.

spk_0 If they don't capitulate to its demands related to anti-Semitism and other issues,

spk_0 we're seeing NIH funding stripped for research related to things the Trump administration doesn't

spk_0 like like vaccine hesitancy. What's at stake at this moment in your view?

spk_0 I believe it's important for me to speak out and I hope other university leaders will

spk_0 join me in speaking out on behalf of the mission of these extraordinary institutions of which we are

spk_0 a part and the benefits that those institutions provide to America and have provided to America.

spk_0 When you ask what's at stake in all of this, what's at stake is a federal government compact with

spk_0 America's public and private universities that has produced tremendous advantage for the American

spk_0 people over a period of 70 years. As part of that compact, the federal government has simultaneously

spk_0 funded research that is in the interests of the American people and respected the academic

spk_0 freedom that is critical to the excellence of our institutions. That's what has helped to make

spk_0 these institutions the best in the world. I don't think this is about one political side versus

spk_0 another. I don't think it's about being four or against the administration, the Trump administration,

spk_0 and the president himself have said they are in favor of gold standard science. They have said

spk_0 they have priorities in fields like quantum science, artificial intelligence, fusion energy.

spk_0 We are going to lead as a country, America is going to lead if and only if we continue to have

spk_0 that productive partnership with university. We didn't see prior administration's

spk_0 Chris withholding hundreds of billions of dollars. No, we didn't. Institution saying do what we want.

spk_0 Jack, that is why I'm speaking out. Okay, but I'm saying everybody does a little bit of this.

spk_0 No, no, no, I'm not saying that. You accurately quoted me. I'm saying, and I believe this is the

spk_0 greatest crisis that we've seen for American higher education since the Red Scare. That's correct,

spk_0 but I firmly believe that there are common interests that auto unite Americans. I hope we'll

spk_0 bring the Trump administration together with American universities around an agenda that should matter

spk_0 to this country. How does this feel like the Red Scare? What specifically is happening that calls

spk_0 that to mind for you? First of all, there are two pieces to that. One is just the breadth of the

spk_0 attack on American institutions of education, which Jack, you summarized a few moments ago, right?

spk_0 This is extraordinary in terms of the kinds of funding that has been put at risk. I think there

spk_0 has been a disregard for due process in the kinds of measures that have been adopted. I will say,

spk_0 and I think every American university president would affirm it's really important for all of us to

spk_0 be concerned about anti-Semitism. It's important for us to be taking steps to make sure that our

spk_0 Jewish students and all of our students flourish on campus. It's important for the government

spk_0 to be holding universities and colleges to account around that. But there are legal processes that

spk_0 have to be adopted and followed and that are laid out in the law. The abandonment of due process

spk_0 is a concern again that leads me to say that this crisis is the worst that we've seen in 70 years.

spk_0 I also think there's an effort here and this is another connection to kind of control or change.

spk_0 What it is that is being done as a matter of scholarship or what kinds of speech are allowed

spk_0 on university campuses, some of the disturbing actions that we've seen taken recently with regard

spk_0 to faculty members. Speech are a part of that. Laws coming out of the states and to some extent

spk_0 reflected in federal orders as well about particular kinds of teaching around critical

spk_0 studies or diversity and inclusion or transgender issues are an example of that. So I think in

spk_0 in both of those respects, which with kind of the breadth of the attack and the kind of effort to

spk_0 demonize some of the teaching and scholarship that's going on in campus, you see connections to

spk_0 the Red Square of the 1950s. Yeah, and certainly we've talked about this on this show with the

spk_0 state laws that are related to certain course content. It feels like sort of a normalization of

spk_0 that type of government intervention, which feels very new to me as somebody who writes about this

spk_0 stuff. And I would say Jack very wrong as a kind of intervention. Again, at the state level and at

spk_0 the national level, the autonomy of universities and their ability to decide what kind of scholarship

spk_0 their faculty will do the freedom of scholars to make that decision, the freedom to decide what

spk_0 they're going to teach and the freedom to make decisions about whom they're going to admit

spk_0 and whom they're going to hire. Those things are essential to excellence. Yeah, I think there's some

spk_0 conservatives who are probably a little bit surprised to see how much the Trump administration wants

spk_0 to get involved in the affairs of private universities. Let's talk a little bit about Princeton

spk_0 specifically. I did a little research today, Chris, that I haven't heard much in a while. So

spk_0 the Trump administration in April froze $210 million, I think, of Princeton's funding. What's the

spk_0 status of this? What's the situation? About half of those grants were restored in August and the

spk_0 other half remained suspended. What's the state of justification for this? The state of justification

spk_0 that we had was very terse. We received a communication from the Department of Energy and also I

spk_0 believe from the Department of Defense with regard to a subset of the grants that had been made

spk_0 to Princeton saying that they had been suspended. That was the word pending review of their consistency

spk_0 with federal regulations, statutes, the Constitution of the United States and executive orders and

spk_0 policies. Any mention of anti-semitism that's been a reason that's cited. Not in the suspension notices

spk_0 that we received. There were quotations from unidentified persons said to be a failure with the

spk_0 administration in some newspapers saying this had something to do with anti-semitism. But Princeton

spk_0 University has never received any communication from the federal government to that effect. In August,

spk_0 we received equally terse, but I will say very welcome communications saying that about half of

spk_0 those grants had been restored at this point. Jack, these are grants for the most part, dealing with

spk_0 things like quantum science or material science or artificial intelligence areas that as I've

spk_0 stressed to the government are areas of shared priority for Princeton University and the American

spk_0 government. So again, my hope is that we can find ways to go forward and I'm glad that half of

spk_0 these grants were restored. I mean, other universities have gotten list of demands, for example. Have

spk_0 you gotten anything like that? We have not received any list of demands and we have not made any deals.

spk_0 Are you at the negotiating table with the federal government about this?

spk_0 We're not talking about any deals. What we're doing is talking about why there's a shared

spk_0 interest in pursuing research that both we and the Trump administration have identified as

spk_0 priorities for the American people. Is there a red line for you though, Chris? Is there something

spk_0 that has been floated out there for other institutions or in this conversation that you're saying not

spk_0 at Princeton? Jack, there are many red lines for me, right? I don't believe that the

spk_0 that the government should be monitoring how departments are organized, how courses are taught,

spk_0 or whom we can admit to the university within the limits established by law. Okay. Okay. So I want

spk_0 to ask you about higher education broadly speaking in response to all of this. No one would expect that

spk_0 all institutions would speak with one voice on this as much as I think that some faculty are

spk_0 sort of hungry for a united front. But there was some interesting reporting in the Atlantic. I'm

spk_0 a counselor who's a Vanderbilt in Washington University in St. Louis and I want to ask you a little

spk_0 bit about that to the extent you're comfortable talking about it. There's a provocative headline you

spk_0 probably saw the elite university presidents who despise one another. I suspect you don't agree

spk_0 with that characterization, which we can talk about. No, I don't agree with that characterization, Jack.

spk_0 And I I'm sure the other president and send that article don't agree with it. I don't think they do

spk_0 we've talked to them. And yeah. And in fact, there's nothing. Let me check. Let's talk about the

spk_0 substance because Jack, I think there's nothing in the article to support the headline. Okay.

spk_0 I bet the reporter would agree with that by the way. Anyway, go ahead. I didn't write the headline.

spk_0 I did, but it was much this guy's. But yeah, the gist of the article is that at a panel of the AAU

spk_0 that you threw some shade at these guys. And I want to know, is it accurate that you think these

spk_0 men have helped perpetuate the idea that higher education is out of touch or a liberal? Did you

spk_0 convey that? What's the truth here? Well, look, if there's an off the record meeting and I make

spk_0 a commitment to treat it as off the record, I take that pretty seriously. I think everybody should.

spk_0 So here's what I will say is, first of all, I think it's a good thing for people have to have

spk_0 discussions where they disagree. That's where we started this conversation. And I and I think my

spk_0 counterparts and I can have very respectful conversations about different opinions about some of

spk_0 the issues you and I have been discussing or about the trajectory and positions of higher education

spk_0 more generally. So and that's the way I tend to talk to my counterparts in the way I find that

spk_0 they talk to me. What here's the other thing I would say is that I'm very appreciative of the way

spk_0 higher education presidents have worked together during this very difficult period. And we agree on

spk_0 a whole lot more than we disagree about. And those agreements are about lots of the things we discuss.

spk_0 I think they're about academic freedom, about excellence, about the importance of federal

spk_0 funding, about things like indirect cost recoveries. And we work together around all of those issues.

spk_0 So the idea that, hey, look, people are working together and sometimes when they work together,

spk_0 they have hard discussions about things they disagree about. I don't think that should be

spk_0 particularly a newsworthy item. And I think it misses what's most important. They're both

spk_0 looking backward and looking forward. Well, let's talk about what is most important. So you don't

spk_0 there's a gossipy element to this that I would admit is titillating an interesting to me as a

spk_0 reporter that people involved. You're all presidents from well-known institutions and maybe you don't

spk_0 see to eye to eye on something really important like how we're going to respond to the biggest threats

spk_0 since the red scare to higher education. That's interesting to me. But yeah, but we can see

spk_0 eye to eye jack on 90% of how we're going to respond, which that may or may not be interesting to

spk_0 you as a reporter, but it should be interesting to me. It is interesting to me. And I think we've

spk_0 talked a lot about that. I think most presidents would agree with a lot of what your book says.

spk_0 But part of the problem that your book articulates is that there's an inaccurate perception of higher

spk_0 education that it's some kind of a liberal disaster. And I know you don't agree with that. That is

spk_0 very inaccurate. But yes, I think even the people who might make the argument might make it a little

spk_0 differently than that, Jack, but go ahead. Fair enough. That's an extreme example of this.

spk_0 Do other college presidents bear any responsibility for the perpetuation of that idea that higher

spk_0 education is out of touch and really needs an attitude adjustment and that the Trump administration

spk_0 is right to be giving it? I have a lot of respect for all of my fellow college presidents do.

spk_0 That is everybody who is a college president. First of all, has a job that was a pretty tough job

spk_0 even as of 10 years ago. When you're going through a crisis, it becomes an almost impossible job to do.

spk_0 All of us have a responsibility to execute that job within the context of the particular

spk_0 mission of our institution, which differs from institution to institution and with regard to the

spk_0 particular circumstances that affect us. And those are going to differ too. So I regard my fellow

spk_0 university presidents as allies in all of this. I think more of us need to speak up for the things

spk_0 that we care about and that we're proud of with these institutions. When I sit down and talk to

spk_0 people, whether they agree or disagree with me about the particulars, they are proud of what

spk_0 happens at their institution just about without exception. That's why you do one of these jobs

spk_0 and you throw yourself into it. And I think we've been through a period where universities have

spk_0 allowed other people to tell stories about us and to define us with those stories. And we haven't

spk_0 done what we should to speak up and tell our own stories. Why do you think more people aren't? Are

spk_0 there people who are worried about, if I speak up, some people will ask what will happen as a result,

spk_0 well, there'll be a backlash off of that. So people will worry about that. But Jack, I think we're

spk_0 also talking about a longer run phenomenon. There are a lot of things that you can do at a university,

spk_0 a president's job. Sometimes it gets to be a natural reaction to say, well, look, I don't want to

spk_0 stir things up. People start to worry. We were talking earlier about self-sensorship in a divided

spk_0 society, about whether or not you're going to offend people about speaking up. There are a lot

spk_0 of pressures these days. I think often misstated or exaggerated, saying, look, president's ought to be

spk_0 neutral about things. As you know from the book, I think that's the wrong way to characterize our

spk_0 obligation to stay out of politics. And sometimes it leads to a sense, okay, what that means is

spk_0 we ought to be speaking up even for these values that are critical to our institutions. So,

spk_0 I don't want to do much more to try to diagnose it. I just, fair enough, I would welcome other

spk_0 allies telling the story that we should all be telling. Let me ask about you and not other people.

spk_0 Yeah, okay. That's fair. I mean, that I probably can answer. Okay, fair enough. You have kind of

spk_0 put your neck out there a little bit though. Has anyone on your board or within your cabinet said,

spk_0 Chris, chill out, man. You're putting a target on us. You know, I actually know.

spk_0 The, we have at Princeton right now a tremendously unified community overall. Jack, what I can tell you

spk_0 is that people are appreciative that we as an institution that I as a president are speaking out

spk_0 right now about a university of which this community is tremendously proud. So, there's a lot of

spk_0 unity around value here. I think one thing I would say that kind of surprised me because I lost

spk_0 some sleep about this before I wrote the Atlantic article that you mentioned. You know, I was,

spk_0 I knew I was taking risks to some extent for myself. I also appreciated I was taking a risk for the

spk_0 the community and I didn't know how people would respond and I didn't know whether it was the right

spk_0 thing to do. What really struck me was after that piece came out how many people from all over the

spk_0 faculty, from the alumni body, from the board were talking to me about how proud they were of being

spk_0 a part of this community and how much it mattered to them. I had, and this is a rare experience for

spk_0 a university president. I had undergraduates shouting to me across the quadrangle expressing their

spk_0 appreciation for, for the fact that we were speaking up and saying some things and I, I think one of

spk_0 the things you need to do as a university leader and that this has enabled me to do is to say to your

spk_0 community, this is what we stand for. If the community disagrees, you got a conversation going on

spk_0 there, but, but it's important for, for leaders to be explicit about what they believe because as I

spk_0 said, I think leaders are proud of their institutions. They should be proud of their institutions and

spk_0 their institutions and their communities want to hear that pride express from their leaders.

spk_0 I think most of what I heard was the type of stuff you heard on the quad. I mean, I don't,

spk_0 you know, let's make some, I'm glad to hear that Jack. Let's make some ice grubber t-shirts, you know,

spk_0 I mean, you know, there, there was, there was a lot of excitement around somebody from an Ivy

spk_0 League institution taking a bold stand. The only whisper I heard that I will ask you about is,

spk_0 well, you know, Princeton doesn't have a med school. They don't have all the NIH funding. They don't

spk_0 have as much to risk as some of these other institutions. What do you say to that?

spk_0 What I would say to that is to say, first of all, yes, we have, I think, a particularly strong model

spk_0 in a lot of different ways. We also have some advantages that I agree helped me to be able to

spk_0 to speak out on these issues. And that's part of the reason when you asked an earlier question.

spk_0 I said, look, I respect what all of my fellow university presidents are doing. They deal with

spk_0 different missions. They deal with different circumstances. They deal with different constraints.

spk_0 Those are tough kinds of jobs to have and tough issues that they have to negotiate. So you asked me

spk_0 why I did what I did and how our community is responding. That's the answer I gave you. I respect

spk_0 the fact that other communities may have to approach matters differently. I suspect that your

spk_0 general counsel or government affairs people are the ones who are on the phone here. But can you

spk_0 talk to anybody in the Trump administration? Do you and say, hey, what's happening here?

spk_0 We have conversations with people in the Trump administration. What about you specifically, though?

spk_0 Yes. Yes, I have. You know, Jack, I'm not going to go into details, right? Because again,

spk_0 I feel like I'm having conversations with folks. Those are private conversations. I can give you

spk_0 one example, though, you know, a secretary, right? The secretary of energy made a visit to the

spk_0 Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory about a month ago now, a secretary, right? And I sat down.

spk_0 We had a terrific conversation about shared priorities and what the Trump administration wants to do

spk_0 to preserve and extend American leadership in science. So we're going to have lots of conversations

spk_0 with folks. I think it's really important to keep open channels of communication going.

spk_0 You know, I think that we are living in interesting times, as they say. And I think there will be

spk_0 books written about this. You probably will write a book about this someday. I'm curious as somebody

spk_0 who takes the long view how you think history will evaluate the way higher education responded to

spk_0 this moment. Oh, Jack, I wish I knew the answer to that question. I guess in some way, I, you know,

spk_0 I feel like what I can think about in this moment is what should our response be to this? How should

spk_0 I be thinking about it? What should we do as an institution? I think we are an important

spk_0 historical moment as a baseball fan. I think we're probably still in the first three innings of

spk_0 that important historical moment. I can't pretend that I can see the future and I'm not going to,

spk_0 I'm not going to figure out what that book will say. Maybe I'll write 130 years from now, Jack, but

spk_0 I can't figure it out in the moment. All right. Well, let's talk again before the bottom of the

spk_0 ninth. How about that? Okay. Let's do that. I enjoyed this conversation. Really did do. Thanks for

spk_0 doing it. Thank you so much, Jack. Take care.

spk_0 College Matters from the Chronicle is a production of the Chronicle of Higher Education, the nation's

spk_0 leading independent newsroom covering colleges. If you like the show, please leave a

spk_0 review or invite a friend to listen and remember to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

spk_0 or wherever you get your podcast so that you never miss an episode. You can find an archive of

spk_0 every episode, all of our show notes, and much more at chronicle.com slash college matters.

spk_0 If you like, drop us a note at collegemattersat chronicle.com. We are produced by Rococo Punch.

spk_0 Our Chronicle producer is Fernanda Zamudia Suarez. Our podcast artwork is by Catrell Thomas.

spk_0 Special thanks to our colleagues Brock Reid, Sarah Brown, Carmen Mendoza, Ron Coddington, Joshua Hatch,

spk_0 and all of the people at the Chronicle who make this show possible. I'm Jack Strippling. Thanks for

spk_0 joining us.

spk_0 It's a fact. 70% of students claim they experience financial stress after arriving on campus.

spk_0 Intuit for education offers free personal and professional financial education

spk_0 with real-world tools that empower students to achieve long-term success.

spk_0 Learn more at intuit.com slash higher ed.

Princeton President Talks Kirk, Trump, ‘Civic Crisis’

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