Practical AI with Derek Crager

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spk_0 Welcome to Transformative Principle. I am very excited to have on the program today Derek D.C.

spk_0 Crayger. He is a passionate advocate for making artificial intelligence approachable and accessible,

spk_0 particularly for individuals within the neurodiverse community.

spk_0 Ask someone who is autistic, Derek has dedicated himself to fostering a supportive environment where

spk_0 people with autism ADHD, dyslexia, can leverage AI to enhance their skills and income.

spk_0 There is work at practical AI. He emphasizes clarity and support,

spk_0 ensuring that users can navigate AI without being overwhelmed by complexities.

spk_0 He's got a great history and this wonderful community, practical AI that you can read

spk_0 a little bit more about on the show notes at transformativeprinciple.org.

spk_0 Derek D.C., you prefer D.C., so we'll go with D.C. Excuse me, I keep saying Derek.

spk_0 Welcome to Transformative Principle.

spk_0 Well, thank you, Jethro. And honestly, anything is fine. Derek in a crowded room, people

spk_0 hear Darrell and Eric and anything else, but yeah, my name is Derek. D.C. Either one I

spk_0 respond to, so thank you. Excellent. Well, great to have you here. Talk to me a little bit about

spk_0 this idea of using AI, particularly with neurodiverse people. What's the difference for someone

spk_0 who's neurodiverse as opposed to just any regular Joe off the street? Well, I think the experience

spk_0 is different because our histories are different. If we to throw a couple of terms out here,

spk_0 you know, neurodiversity on one side and neurotypical on the other, the neurotypical is that category.

spk_0 We throw the traditionally average people to, you know, air quotes here, quote-unquote average,

spk_0 but normative, I guess, is a better way to put it. Average, joy, sounds like an insult, so

spk_0 what it's applied to humans. But yeah, the experience coming in with AI is that it gives us someone

spk_0 to talk to and connecting through a human level is important. And I'm even talking beyond, you know,

spk_0 keystrokes and clicks. It's if we can get to that human conversation with AI, and that's one thing

spk_0 I do with with my company, both on the profit and the nonprofit side is I built a voice interface

spk_0 to emulate this patient supportive anthropomorphized AI that sounds like a human. So I think that's

spk_0 important to get through the psychological barrier. But either way, those of us that are on

spk_0 a spectrum or considered neurodivergent, we have honestly a rough history. We are the lowest

spk_0 employment rate when it comes to employment statistics. And a lot of times we do good things,

spk_0 but we can't explain them well, so that means we don't connect to the social. So AI allows us to

spk_0 speak with ourselves in a manner. There's multiple platforms out there, whether it be notebook,

spk_0 LAM, or a GenGPT project or perplexity spaces, those are just three I've topped my head that

spk_0 allow us to create a diary for ourselves and be able to talk to ourselves. So in that manner,

spk_0 it's those of us that are ADHD, we're either at 50,000 feet or we're deep in the weeds and

spk_0 nowhere in between. So I know it allows me to what I'm deep in the weeds to talk to myself through

spk_0 the AI interface and say, hey, give me a broad view because I'm stuck on something or even just

spk_0 the opposite. If I'm at the 50,000 viewpoint and my mind's going everywhere racing and I can't

spk_0 get into the weeds or I can't identify the top five or the top 10 or what are the highlights,

spk_0 I can ask myself through this AI front end diary to elicit those items. So it's a way to

spk_0 get advice from ourselves and especially we won't have the fear of asking a human.

spk_0 I mean, in school, one of the first things we always hear at the beginning of the year,

spk_0 there are no dumb questions type of things, but even still those of us that are on the spectrum

spk_0 of some sort, we've heard that and we still get experience that our questions are done. So we

spk_0 refrain even deeper and go on our show. Yeah, that makes total sense. And in working with my own

spk_0 daughter on this kind of stuff, she sometimes doesn't have the capacity to articulate the question

spk_0 that she's asking. And so for example, this morning at breakfast, she was asking a question

spk_0 and we couldn't understand what she was asking as she was trying to refer to something in the past

spk_0 and instead of saying, last Christmas, she said last week. And so then we were more confused about

spk_0 that situation. And there's this paper that came out recently called Your Brain on Chat GPT

spk_0 Cognitive Debt. And this idea of cognitive debt has really been weighing heavily on me in that

spk_0 the paper proposed that essentially people who use Chat GPT to do things that they are taking on

spk_0 cognitive debt. But in reading that paper and starting to understand some aspects of it,

spk_0 I believe that Chat GPT actually provides cognitive equity for some people because it gives them

spk_0 an ability to do the things that typically get in trouble, cause them trouble in their day-to-day

spk_0 communication. So for example, for my daughter to put together complex words and phrases can be

spk_0 very challenging, but she can get the base idea down. And so using Chat GPT actually enables her to

spk_0 have a voice where she didn't have a voice before because it helps her explain things where she's

spk_0 just getting the highlights and it helps explain them and fill in the gaps. Does that make sense?

spk_0 What do you see with that kind of an approach? Oh, that's a word definitely an alignment on this.

spk_0 It's what is there depending on the research? There's 30,000 or 60,000 words in the English language

spk_0 and a typical human, you know, we're walking around with five, maybe 6,000 words. So your word for

spk_0 something may be different than my word for something and we write this all sometimes as cultural.

spk_0 And yeah, the culture has a certain connection to it and the reason why some way might call

spk_0 a Calcute One Place that the Davenport and some play sells, if we don't know there's that translation,

spk_0 then yeah, we're like, what is a Davenport? And so yeah, the way your family speak, it's the same

spk_0 way for your daughter, I picture that and first of all, I want to preface this by saying that

spk_0 anybody on the neurodiverse spectrum in that neurodiversity group, just because we have

spk_0 diagnosed with the same professional diagnosis with whatever that might be, that does not mean that

spk_0 we're the same as somebody else sitting next to us with that same diagnosis. I think that's very

spk_0 important to understand. That's something that I didn't even understand until 10 years ago.

spk_0 And so there's something that Dr. Nancy Doyle came up with. She's a doctor out of the UK and she

spk_0 built this community called Genius Within and she talks about what is neurodiversity and she identifies

spk_0 the spiky profile and to her the spiky profile is that it's like an xy graph and we plot out our skill

spk_0 sets and the neuro-typical people in the world, they're like a plus one to a minus one or a zero

spk_0 all the way across, but they come out to be that average. There's that word again average,

spk_0 but that's normal. And so for those of us that are neurodiverse, we might be a 10 where

spk_0 the neuro-typicals are a one, but to balance that, we might be a minus 10 where a neuro-typicals

spk_0 a one and that plus 10 might be in our creativity. It could be building something, it could be our

spk_0 analytical mind and then maybe we come up with something great for a company or a school or a

spk_0 project or for mom and dad and then we try to explain it and so like your daughter is trying to

spk_0 explain maybe we're a minus 10 and because we lack the control over the words and to some of that,

spk_0 it really that lack of control over the words is the interface with the rest of humanity or humankind

spk_0 and if that's our only method of communication and it sounds like whoever's trying to communicate

spk_0 is ignorant or they lack the knowledge where sometimes it's just the opposite. Sometimes there are

spk_0 so many things going on in that mind that they might know 10 words for that topic and they're just

spk_0 going to throw one out at you because their gears are turning so fast, they're just spitting to put

spk_0 the language together and in their mind, their mind is running so fast that they're thinking about

spk_0 10 things ahead of the conversation. So to put them in a scenario where they have to stop, you know,

spk_0 smell the roses, that the fray, there are all kinds of phrasing in life that we pick up, you know,

spk_0 take a minute, take a heartbeat, type of things, live in the present. For those of us with our minds,

spk_0 where the gears are going, it's very easy to use words that our conversation partners don't

spk_0 understand. So it is very much like a interpretation needed and chat GPT does offer that definitely.

spk_0 Well yeah, and that's something that's really interesting. I like that genius within approach because

spk_0 in my daughter's situation, she may be a minus 10 in a whole bunch of areas and then a plus 10 in

spk_0 only one area. And you know, when we talk about this, we often talk like we're really good in one

spk_0 area that makes up for the deficit in another area, but it may be that we're negative in a lot of

spk_0 areas as it relates to what is typical and what is normal. And that makes it really difficult to

spk_0 assimilate and participate in our modern economy and the things that we do on a day to day basis in

spk_0 our society, that can make it really challenging. And one of those things is being able to read, for

spk_0 example, even, you know, with all this stuff around AI, so much of it is text-based. And so

spk_0 you mentioned having a voice interface that helps. And then you also mentioned the idea of this

spk_0 patient, infinitely patient thing that can deal with the millions of questions that are asked. And

spk_0 and that is exactly something that that I've seen with with neurodiverse, diverse folks that I've

spk_0 worked with that they have a lot of questions and ask them repeatedly and constantly. Even when

spk_0 we already have determined that these things are the case and happening, they still come back to

spk_0 these questions often. And so having something that is infinitely patient can be a really powerful

spk_0 support for someone. And so my question then with with these contexts in place, how how do you do it

spk_0 so that the the AI is actually beneficial for the person and that it is attuned to what it is that

spk_0 they need and that it can help them in their specific use case. Oh, certainly. It's that's an

spk_0 important distinction because we hear and we read of the headlines that talk about AI being

spk_0 inaccurate or hallucinating, etc. So we have our special sauce on the back end of our model.

spk_0 And our model is is set up where we take the knowledge domain whatever that knowledge domain is.

spk_0 So we compartmentalize a specific knowledge. For example, let's say seventh grade science.

spk_0 Maybe we take the seventh grade science book and we digest that into a database, you know,

spk_0 vector databases, a cool term to throw around. But we digest that into a database. We have an AI

spk_0 in the back end that interprets the data and then we have that transition point. We have a different

spk_0 large language model on the front end to interface between the human and the at the back end.

spk_0 And so it's really about can put in the knowledge in a container and allowing our AI to speak

spk_0 to and from that knowledge domain. No, where else? So we put guardrails on it. And so the conversation

spk_0 when we're talking to it is very much like speaking to somebody that is on the spectrum

spk_0 because we set this up as a subject matter expert, this SME in a box. And it talks

spk_0 add infinitum on that subject. But if you ask it about, you know, curly fries at RVs, it's probably

spk_0 not going to be the answer, yeah. And it versus the public domain tools that are out there,

spk_0 you're just going to get the first answer that comes up. That's really a CHGPT's model is to just

spk_0 return an answer. So yeah, that's it's it's important that we stick to the quality of the data

spk_0 and we increase the accuracy of the conversation by limiting our interface with just that specific data.

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spk_0 So how does this work then in a situation where there is, you know, let's say we need this to be a

spk_0 helper for navigating the community, for example. And someone doesn't have the language skills to

spk_0 get out there, but they can text and then can the AI then be their voice and say,

spk_0 I want to go to this place and it will communicate that for them. What kinds of situations where

spk_0 exists, where you can do more than just teach a subject, but can also help them navigate

spk_0 an environment or a conversation or a relationship. Yeah, well that's that's ideal. And that's

spk_0 really our forte. That's that's where we thrive is is going beyond just the steps because

spk_0 we can have a list of ingredients on a recipe and it tells us how to bake muffins, but that doesn't

spk_0 mean that that index card can tell us what to do if our oven is oversized or it's out of whack or

spk_0 we were missing an ingredient. And then in the in the

spk_0 how about this? If we have our earbuds in and we're listening to our map, let's say Google

spk_0 map that's walking around town. So that would be similar to the scenario you're you're talking about

spk_0 in a geographical sense. The the Google maps is going to respond on just straight how to get there,

spk_0 but you can't ask Google maps is you know the roads blocked or the bridge is washed out. I mean

spk_0 they've got some work around in there, but it's not conversational. Whereas if they were if your

spk_0 daughter was speaking to you over the telephone, she has her backpack on her earbuds in and she's

spk_0 talking to dad and she says hey dad I got down here and I can see the McDonald's across the way

spk_0 but the bridge is washed out. Then dad was oh yeah yeah yeah just going down to first street take a

spk_0 right and that's the work around. And that's a very simplified version of of what our AI is doing

spk_0 right now conversationally. So any place that a human can be and offer mentorship that is

spk_0 that's the domain we're covering right now. We're not trying to be all things to all people,

spk_0 but in that scenario we take the topic and we are working on business side we have school side

spk_0 and specific topics, but also I learned when I I'm not a certified teacher I'll I'll see

spk_0 that to the crowd here, but I know that there's a shortage of teachers so in what time I have to spare

spk_0 I volunteer at the local as a substitute teacher and I found out that depending on the school system

spk_0 you have adults that shop around or mentor in individual students one-on-one throughout the day.

spk_0 They walk around with them they go with them they help interpret like we discussed a little bit

spk_0 ago and they help interface and they help that day go better for that student so everybody can

spk_0 learn in the school system without disrupting the class so that's a lot of money if we had one

spk_0 adult for every student I mean we'd have we wouldn't have 25 to one teacher to student ratios

spk_0 right so if we had that economic capability we'd be supporting the teachers much better.

spk_0 So with this and I saw this a couple years ago and started my mind turning on this in your scenario

spk_0 can we give somebody this this virtual mentor that they can carry around with them and it's not

spk_0 even a visual handicap at this point so it does not separate them and call them out for being

spk_0 different oh you got the human walking with you it's in their ear and they can say hey I'm

spk_0 going to math class and I really have I really have trouble with math and I don't know where to start

spk_0 and I don't know how to talk to the teacher about it can you talk me through this and in a very

spk_0 supporting carrying way it will say hey you know try this and then depending on the knowledge that

spk_0 is contained there's different scenarios that it will walk the student through on how to connect it

spk_0 we could have that knowledge programmed with you know what's my locker combination I forgot

spk_0 and then I I was listening to your episode last week with you and Damon talking about software

spk_0 and I think I think it was Damon that was going into we have this knowledge loss when a teacher

spk_0 leaves and the teacher takes all that knowledge of the student and then we have a certain amount

spk_0 of records but those records are really cold and they really don't tell us about the student other

spk_0 than really their attendance and in very a very high level view and I know a large part of your

spk_0 discussion was on well do we share a spreadsheet and what happens when we fat finger the spreadsheet

spk_0 and who has access to this knowledge and and so I envision taking the tool that we built and going

spk_0 beyond just supporting one person at a time but in in a scenario where you know we're not where the

spk_0 privacy concerns are taken care of and it's all within the school system how cool would it be for

spk_0 you know a little Johnny or Jill to come into a class in in second term and the teacher

spk_0 doesn't pull up a record and look at this you know black and white ones and zeros about the record

spk_0 but what if they could just dial a phone number and say hey you know I've got the Johnny and his

spk_0 twin sister Jill in here in from you know the next barrow over can you tell me about them

spk_0 and then conversational they're going to be told about the highs the lows what they're having

spk_0 trouble with what they really excel at and I tell people to throw that our AI technology is

spk_0 50,000 years old because back in the day before you know Gutenberg press and before writing instruments

spk_0 we told stories and it was human to human that's how we've learned so we're going back to the basics

spk_0 the true basics of having that conversation and we're scaling it and we're giving the user this one

spk_0 on one time with this dynamic knowledge base that they can use when it suits them they don't have

spk_0 to set an appointment they don't have to call in at a certain time but all that information is

spk_0 there when they need it yeah I just I love what you're talking about DC because that's exactly where

spk_0 I want to get to where the support is there but the human still remains in in the conversation

spk_0 now you talked about going into the math class and saying I really don't get this and one of the

spk_0 real problems we have with students is that they they don't articulate that they act out with poor

spk_0 behavior and and that's typically how we find out that kids are struggling in school is that they

spk_0 have poor behavior to start now if someone cannot articulate that they're struggling with math

spk_0 this is an area where maybe that that phone call the teacher makes can help communicate that

spk_0 maybe not but if there's a way for them to be able to get the help that they need

spk_0 without acting out behaviorally then that would be ideal because that then let's everybody focus

spk_0 on learning and not focus on dealing with these negative behaviors that crop up when kids are

spk_0 doing things that to get out of the work or to avoid the difficult work and and this is a really

spk_0 important thing to all teachers and school leaders because that's usually what happens is that

spk_0 it becomes a behavior issue especially if the kid can't communicate effectively what's really going

spk_0 on and this is this is a huge problem in education that if we can find the solution to it will be

spk_0 it'll be a lifesaver for everybody the kids the adults everybody involved in the process

spk_0 I agree to 100% teachers guys put in 12 hour days for a seven hour class day and they're doing work

spk_0 before during and after and you would think it translates into a one-on-one time with student but

spk_0 I think on one of your episodes saying I think Alaska has like five different state tests and

spk_0 they're on different platforms so so much time we teach to the test just out of you know we're

spk_0 kind of on hand as fours that we don't have time to actually teach so yeah absolutely is with

spk_0 a with a conversational tone we can iterate back and forth through conversation much quicker than

spk_0 an email or records or maybe I make a phone call and are these records correct or do you have more

spk_0 records about this student and there's you know there's students with parents there's students without

spk_0 parents there's students that have helicopter parents there's those students with parents that

spk_0 work all the time so we we have no idea what the student support system is back home and

spk_0 absolutely if we need to work and offer every possible avenue of communication because those

spk_0 sometimes we just need to be heard and I point to you know Mazlow's hierarchy you know at

spk_0 we have certain needs that need to be met before we can even exist and I believe that

spk_0 being heard is is a very strong need in human civilization as an individual and if we're just heard

spk_0 that dispels and deflates and depressurizes a lot of those volatile situations

spk_0 it definitely doesn't and people need to be heard no matter what and a lot of times kids in

spk_0 schools seek to be heard by their behavior when the other things they're trying to do aren't

spk_0 working or they don't have the capacity to do that so this has been this has been a great

spk_0 conversation how can people get connected with you and with what you're doing with practical AI?

spk_0 Well certainly so I have a non-profit side it's called AI for Autistics I'll

spk_0 spelled out AI for Autistics.com that tells about a community that we build. Autistics have the

spk_0 the lowest employment rate we we may have touched on earlier so we guide and we teach on how to use

spk_0 AI to build software and I know that came up in your conversation last week too and I think

spk_0 you said use Replet to build but there are several other ones out there so this is a great tool

spk_0 for for those analytical and lean-minded which a lot of us fall into so we teach them how to build

spk_0 things and that's a no-cost it's just it's just is there on the for-profit side the big-around

spk_0 practical AI.app so just like it sounds phonetically practical AI.appl pair pair and if you

spk_0 find my name on LinkedIn please reach out say hello and I'd love to connect and help everyone in

spk_0 your audience. Yeah very good well this has been awesome and I know we just barely scratched

spk_0 the surface so thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me today and please everybody

spk_0 go check out practical AI.app or AI for Autistics.com thanks again so much D.C. for being part of

spk_0 transformative principle. Well thank you and thank you for having me here have a great day.

Practical AI with Derek Crager

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