Lifestyle
Nicole Dawes: Brand Building With a Side of Childhood Values
In this episode, Nicole Dawes, founder of Late July Organic Snacks and Nixie, shares her journey from growing up in a health-conscious family to building successful snack brands. She discusses the imp...
Nicole Dawes: Brand Building With a Side of Childhood Values
Lifestyle •
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Interactive Transcript
Speaker A
Hey.
Speaker B
Welcome to food. I'm Kate Bittman and we are so glad that you're here with us. If you want more, remember to check us out online@bittmanproject.com we've got more than 1500 recipes with new ones added daily. Plus some really wonderful food writing from some really wonderful food writers and recommendations for products and more. Bitman project.com and as always, email us with any questions or feedback@food markbitman.com.
Speaker A
Hey.
Speaker C
Kisa Kalimov.
Speaker B
Today's guest, Nicole Dawes is kind of the new guard of old school food royalty. That might sound confusing, but you'll see what I mean. She's the founder of Late July Organic Snacks. I'm sure the majority of you listening have had late July tortilla chips or their salsa and more recently of Nixie, the sparkling water and zero sugar soda brand. Nicole got her start working for her father, Steve Bernard, who was the founder of Cape Cod Potato Chips. Her mother owned a natural food store on the Cape. And when you listen to our interview with Nicole, it's obvious and very sweet to see that her passion both for snacks and for healthy food, that might seem like an oxymoron, but she's trying to make it not so, is sort of her birthright. Nicole is passionate about organics and using good ingredients, but she's also refreshingly non maniacal about it. She has a keen understanding of the current food landscape and I'm sure you'll agree is doing a really nice job carving out a niche for herself and the products and foods she believes in. Thank you for joining us, Nicole. We're so happy to have you here with us.
Speaker C
Well, thank you for having me. I am just so thrilled to be here. I mean, I'm, I mean, as, as you know, I have a special place in my heart for father daughter teams and I've been really looking forward to this conversation. So thank you for inviting me.
Speaker B
Well, so I want to start out with sort of a father daughter question because at least for me and Mark, this is an elephant in the room because your dad founded Cape Cod potato chips, which was like a staple of my childhood despite being a healthy family. But when we were on the Cape, it was like that was it.
Speaker A
Yeah, it's true.
Speaker B
Well, Nicole, you and I have already talked about growing up with a health conscious parent and we can get into that too. But yes, we were allowed to have Cape Cod potato chips sometimes. And so I don't even know what I want to ask so much. Just I kind of want to Know what it was like to be such an integral part of the making of such a beloved food.
Speaker C
You know, sometimes I feel like Cape Cod potato chips. I'm an only child, and sometimes I feel like Cape Cod potato chips is like my sibling. Like, we kind of grew up together, you know, and. And I feel very protective of it, and I feel very grateful to have had it be a part of my life. And, you know, we've talked about this in the past, but my mom had a health food store in the 70s, which I have a lot of feelings about. I mean, I feel really lucky that I got that great foundation from my mom. But I also feel like a lot of the products in that 1970s Health food store are kind of why health food has a bad reputation for some people. So when my dad started Cape Cod potato chips, in a lot of way, it was sort of, you know, it allowed me for the first time to realize that I could. It was a product that was clean, it was simple ingredients. Like, it, like, kind of broadened the scope of the foods I was allowed to have. Because prior to my dad starting that, I mean, I was the person that would go into, like, the bank with my grandmother, they'd try to hand me a lollipop, and I would say, no, because we don't. I'm not allowed to have, like, processed sugar in my house, so.
Speaker B
Come on.
Speaker C
So, I mean, I think in so many ways, like, Cape Cod potato chips was sort of my way out, you know, But I. You know, so growing up with it, I mean, I, like, I feel really lucky. I mean, I spent a lot of time at that factory when I was a kid, and it was like a home away from home.
Speaker B
You ate carob growing up, didn't you?
Speaker C
I had a lot of carob and I. There's no. I will never, ever, ever say a positive thing about caro.
Speaker B
Like, there's no.
Speaker C
There's no part of me. And like, carob covered rice cake. Not a treat. That's not a treat. That's not a reward for anything. That should be a punishment.
Speaker A
I want to interject and say I met and interviewed your dad. I mean, I want to say in 84, 86, something like that, mid-80s for sure. We were going to. We started going to the Cape when Kate was 4, so that would be 82. And then we started renting in Eastham. Summers in. Yeah, probably 84. And when. I don't know when Cape Cod potato chips were launched. Do you know what year?
Speaker C
1980.
Speaker A
Yeah. So, like, soon thereafter, I like, Was like, wow, there is potato chips. We really like. Let me reach out to them because I was young ish reporter writing about food and anytime, you know, I mean, there were these sort of two interesting interviews that happened within a year of each other. One was with your dad and one was with what's his name, Jim Cook, who founded Sam Adams. Anyway, I did that. But given this sort of health food background, maybe talk a little about how your diet was when you were a kid. Although I'm sure you and Kate are going to both bitch about having horrible, mean parents who fed you health food and then how it evolved over the years.
Speaker C
I was lucky in that my parents both had like a different expertise when it came to like food and food preparation. My mom was very, very much about, you know, the, you know, like we went to like a macrobiotic like summer retreat when I was a little kid, me and my mom, which, you know, Misho Kuchi actually was running it and it was in Western Mass and it was like, you know, teaching us how to cook and there were like things for kids and forces. My dad had a much different outlook on food. It was all about really the taste. It was like 100% taste driven. I mean he would go to three or four different stores to get the right ingredients to make the food he, that he wanted to make. And I think, you know, like what I tried to do was incorporate both of those into my life. So I appreciated like the, you know, care about the environment and the, the, the healthfulness of what my mom had. But I, I always believed that like even back then that you know, food has to taste great or no one's get. You're not going to get, like people aren't going to embrace it in the same way. I mean it, it should be like an enjoyable experience. And you know, while there are some of the dishes I had as a child, like actually wheat meat and yellow mustard sandwich. It's like seitan that. Okay, wheat meat. And to sometimes feel that, I don't know, seitan, like not everyone knows what that is.
Speaker B
I guess I know what Satan is. I didn't realize that that was the nickname which of course it makes total.
Speaker C
That was just my nickname. I don't know. I was like, why broadly embraced. And then there was other things that like I loved and you know, like, like miso soup to me is just delicious. You know, like we have that all the time. That's just a delicious food. But there was also a million other things that just were not they, you know. And like I Mean, you spend a lot of time preparing meals, they should always be delicious. And you know, I think that's what's like guided me my entire career is like bringing like the aspects of what, what was important to my mom, but like bringing in like what my dad taught me to.
Speaker B
So you started a line of sugar free sodas and sparkling waters called Nixi and Poppy, which is like a prebiotic soda, a better for better for you soda. I've never had it, but they just sold to pepsi for almost $2 billion. So how do you resist that? How do you, Nicole, how do you keep your head down and not see the lore in an offer like that?
Speaker C
Well, I think the, I mean, honestly the best thing that you can do is I think you just have to create good companies with like strong fundamentals. Like, that's the best thing that I can do for like a natural product brand is that make sure that like the brand I'm creating has, you know, generationally lasting foundation that, you know, I'm not trying to. And like, I've never really felt compelled to like follow something that's like super, super trendy or, you know, I'm just trying to build a brand that stands for something that, you know, is a fundamentally strong brand so that, you know, in the future it's going to be around and that it will continue to grow and continue to, you know, grow the amount of organic products that are being purchased, the amount of organic ingredients that are being purchased and that, and also that. So that those values become so entwined in what it is that no matter how big we've become, they're always like an integral part and can't be separated from the brand. And I think that's what's important because, you know, we need brands that like represent. The values are important to me to also be big. Like, you know, I don't think we survive as a niche part of the food business. Like, if we really want change, we need to show that these products have value and deserve their fair share of the supermarket. So I don't think being small is necessarily the answer, but I think being strong fundamentally and also where the values are so ingrained in what the brand means that they cannot be separated from it. Ben and Jerry's has done a good job with that. Their values are so entwined with who they are, like, despite no matter how hard the parent company has tried at times to discover that they can't.
Speaker B
I love it. I love that it makes me so happy. It never fails to make me happy. I took Holden there the other day for a cone.
Speaker C
I do think that that's what's, that's what's important is creating something that stands for something and is really, really deeply ingrained in the value of what the brand means.
Speaker B
Stay tuned for more from Nicole Dawes, Mark and me. You created Late July, which is everywhere. I mean, it's like everyone has Late July. What helped it to take off? Was it, do you think there was just demand for that kind of product at that point? You think people just wanted better? Like we were saying, better products with better ingredients?
Speaker C
Well, I think like when I was starting Late July snacks, like also.
Speaker B
Did you start it with your dad?
Speaker C
Well, I started it, yes. So I started it briefly without my dad and then he joined me, like almost right away. And then my husband also joined. So I actually, at one moment I was working with my dad and my husband who was working with his father in law. So that's a whole nother. Well, we can unpack that one.
Speaker B
That's a lot.
Speaker C
Yeah, but I mean, I worked with my dad also at Cape Cod Chips. I ran the marketing department there too. I actually tried to launch a line of organic potato chips back when I was running the marketing department, but I turned out to be a little bit too ahead of my time and I launched our reduced fat chip, which is still one of their best sellers today. So I worked with my dad back in Cape Cod Potato Chips days and then again late July and I, I, that's why I think I was so excited about this. I loved working with my dad. It was like one of the joys of my life. My dad unfortunately passed away in 09 and like, I just, it's just I feel so grateful and I will like for the rest of my life to have had that opportunity. He was really interesting in the way that he taught me things in that he didn't really teach me by like, you know, it was really just like everything was a rip the band aid off situation, you know. But I, you know, I think I, I mean I love that, you know, I think I looked at it as. He just believed I could do it. You know what I mean?
Speaker B
Like, he threw you into the pool when you couldn't swim, right?
Speaker C
Yeah. And I, I mean I, I always loved that about him. Like he, you know, there was no babying or no like, you know, real hand holding. It was always like, you got this and then I kind of had to have it. But I, I mean I just learned so much working with him and you know, even just like Little lessons that I picked up along the way where I find myself still today. You know, I, I can like hear him, his voice in my head mentioning different things or. So I mean I. Yes, dance. Long answer there. But yes, I did work with my dad in late July, but I didn't answer your original question was how did I start that? And like why?
Speaker B
Well, how did it become what it is now? Which is, I mean, it's so impressive.
Speaker C
You know, I think, I mean, part of what motivated me in the beginning was I was actually pregnant with my now 23 year old son and I was looking for some organic saltines. And I was living in New York City at the time where I had like four natural food stores in like a. Not even like a, like a maybe 10 block radius in every direction. And like when I walked into those natural food stores, I mean the produce looked great, like the dairy had really come a long way. But when you walked into the center of the store, it was almost like a time shift back into my mom's 19 silver bathroom food store. I was like. And I was in New York City. So I mean, obviously it wasn't like there were better ones other places, like we had the best that they had to offer. And I'm like, how did this happen? Like, how did the rest of the store sort of realize that, you know, natural food shoppers want more? But this middle part was satisfied with what we had. And that's when it just dawned on me that there was this huge opportunity for people to create great tasting middle of the store options. And so I started with crackers cookies actually. And. But it always kind of troubled me that like I thought our products could be healthier because I think I heard like my mom in the back of my head, like, make these healthier. And the cookies, like, even though they were the healthiest cookies, I mean, we used real organic dark chocolate in our sandwich cookies. I mean they were, they were so good. We would make the chocolate. We were getting it from Godard. Beautiful. I mean they were so good, but they weren't, I think, similar to our candy conversation. It was like they just like I didn't feel great about it because it's sort of like they just like fundamentally weren't good for you, you know, like, isn't something like buying packaged cookies just didn't really like give me that warm and fuzzy feeling, even though they were about as good as they could be. I mean, we did endangered animals with Jane Goodall Institute. I mean really, like we checked every box that you should feel good about, but I just still felt like we could do better. And was honestly, after my dad passed away, my husband and I sort of were just thinking about, like, you know, how do we define who we are and what we stand for as a brand? And we really felt like what we needed to do is just make our products healthier, but still just as delicious, and, like, what ingredients would allow us to do that, and how could we do that? And that's when we kind of, you know, we actually discontinued the cookies, which is a really heartbreaking moment for me and something I'm not sure one of my sons is, like, ever forgiving me for, but. And we went into snacks that had, like, you know, whole grains and, like, we were using, like, chia and quinoa and, like, all of these, like, wonderful whole grain ingredients and creating something that, you know, really was, like, one of the healthiest snacks you could buy, you know, And I, again, like, I've always felt like sugar is one of the bigger issues when it comes to, like, the, like, the products I don't feel good about making. And so, you know, we were creating these products that, you know, I did feel good about. And so we kind of morphed our whole company into, like, really delicious tasting, but, like, healthier snacks. And I think it was like, our pivot allowed us to clearly define who we are, and then we made a lot more sense to everybody else. And, you know, I do like to say we were that kind of overnight success that took us seven years to get there. But honestly, once we did that and everything kind of came together, I mean, we just. Our growth just exploded, and we went from, like, took us, like, seven years to get to 8 million, and then we just, like, shot up to over 100 million. So it was like. I think it was like, us understanding who we were and what we stand for and what we wanted to put out in the world, you know, just made it a lot easier for other people to understand.
Speaker B
Kind of poetic when you think about it.
Speaker A
Yeah, it's nice.
Speaker C
Yeah, it was hard because we walked away from a lot of sales, but it made us. It made a lot more sense, I think, as a brand. It also. I felt better about it because, you know, I mean, I'm not opposed to people having cookies. I love to bake cookies. I mean, I think I perfected a ginger molasses cookie recipe during the pandemic. Like, it was my actual job. So I'm not, like, I think those things are great, but, you know, I didn't feel it didn't make me feel good to produce them as, like, a processed food.
Speaker B
That makes sense.
Speaker C
And with Nixie, it was somewhat similar, of a revelation. And so I, you know, again, I spent a lot of time in grocery stores. I mean, I, like, I'm not saying it's, like, my hobby, but it kind of is. Like, I truly enjoy. I love going to the grocery store. I mean, if I'm in a town, I'm going to definitely go to the, like, independent grocery store. It's. It's probably one of my favorite things to do is to go to a town's, like, independent grocery store. But anyway, I'm walking in and, you know, we did a ton of, like, cross merchandising with beverages back at late July, but when you walk into, like, the beverage section, it's one of the few parts of the store that is still, like, filled with plastic, filled with sugar. And there's not a lot of organic. So it's. It's not as bad as, like, that, like, you know, the time machine that I stepped into back when I started late July. But in a lot of ways, it is like, you know, and I think so. And especially as I saw, like, these healthier sodas kind of gaining popularity, it was, like, disturbing me a little bit that they still had sugar, they weren't organic, you know, And I'm thinking, like, this isn't the best we can do. Like, we can do better. And so that's what prompted me to, like, take the things that are important to me and, like, bring those values into a beverage product, too. And that are, you know, things like no sugar, things like no plastic, things like certified organic ingredients, no artificial sweeteners, because, I mean, those are terrible for us. I mean, so, like, all of these different components and bringing those and like, using real ingredients, like vanilla and ginger and. And bringing all of that into a beverage product. So. And I think also, you know, it's like a. I think a, like, karmically poetic moment in my life was I got so mad at my dad when he started a second company because the. After Cape Cod chips, he started another company called Chad and Village Foods making croutons. And I was so mad, I'm like, how could you do this? Like, you're fine. Like, I wish you could finally, like, stop traveling so much and, like, spend more time at home. And he was like, you don't understand. Like, maybe you'll understand someday. And I was like, I never started a second company. Like, that's.
Speaker A
Last words.
Speaker C
And, you know, so here I am, you know, started a second company, which I agree, is, you know, probably for, like, I should have my. Like, my brain examined for why anyone would do it twice. But, you know, I think about that all the time. I gave him such a hard time for that, but here I am.
Speaker B
It's our job to give them a hard time.
Speaker C
But you see, you know, I think it's like, I take this. If you see something, say something to, like, a really extreme level.
Speaker B
Well, I was just gonna say I feel. And this is not. You're obviously brilliant in your own right, but I think I feel like the combination of your mom and your dad is sort of. It makes so much sense what you're doing right now. It's kind of like right down the middle.
Speaker C
It really is. I mean, honestly, like, I am the literal product of a mom at the health food store and a dad with a company. Like, I think I'm sort of the only result that could happen there. So.
Speaker B
Great.
Speaker C
This is what you get. Yeah, it's. It's. It's. It's really easy to connect the dots.
Speaker B
Yeah, it's like one plus one equals two. I love it. I mean, you don't see that very often. It's really cool.
Speaker C
Really makes, like. It makes almost too much sense. You know what I mean?
Speaker B
Yeah, I like it.
Speaker C
Yeah. And it's. I. The thing I actually like is I see, like. Like watching my own sons with their relationship with food. Like, I do think that, you know, both of them like to cook. You know, both of them. Actually, my older son's a little better about sending me photos from grocery stores. My younger son doesn't embrace that as much yet, but he actually likes to cook a little bit more. You know, they're always looking for fresh ingredients. Like, I feel like, you know, I don't see either one of them necessarily going into the food business. My older son's a musician, and my younger son's in film school. But they do, I think, appreciate their relationship with food is something that I think, you know, at least I've passed that part down.
Speaker A
Okay, Nicole, last question, which we ask everyone. What'd you have for dinner last night?
Speaker C
Oh, that's my favorite topic.
Speaker B
Same constantly asking people, oh, that is my.
Speaker C
I think that's literally the first thing I do when I wake up every morning, if I haven't already discussed it the night before. But last night. Let me just remember for one second. Oh, okay. Now. Okay. Just bear with me for one second here. It's not very. It's not the Most insane meal of all time. But I think it maybe is a perfect meal. So I had gone on Sunday. I went to, like, we don't have a ton of farms on Cape Cod where I am, but there's like one farm stand that I can go to, and it's a little bit of a drive, so I only go like once a week. So I went on Sunday and I got these gorgeous tomatoes and some arugula. So I was thinking maybe we would just have like tomato sandwiches one night. And last night there's this restaurant, my husband's from New Orleans. So I like, I love New Orleans restaurants. And there's a guy down there that has a standard shop called Turkey and the Wolf. And he had, like, published a recipe for a tomato sandwich. And I'm thinking, that's ridiculous. You don't need a recipe for a tomato sandwich. That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. But curiosity did get the better of me, so I looked it up and basically it's you buy like a loaf of bread, like not sliced. So you slice it yourself into like slightly thicker slices and then, you know, the thick cut tomatoes. And then you put a layer of basil and dill. And he uses sunflower seeds, but I didn't do that. So I made these tomato sandwiches with the layer of dill. Layer a little bit of. I'm sorry, layer of basil, little bit of dill, squeeze lemon on it, some salt, toast it. You can grill the bread too, if you're feeling extra special. And then I just served it with like a side of arugula. And I did toast some pine nuts. And I just used like olive oil and balsamic vinegar. But really, the sandwich, I mean, there is nothing to me better than a perfect sandwich. And I truly believe that might be the perfect sandwich. So I have an herb garden, so I got the herbs from my garden, but I was skeptical of the dill and the basil and the lemon. But honestly, I think it's the perfect sandwich.
Speaker A
I go for basil and mayonnaise.
Speaker C
Oh, I'm sorry. Mayonnaise, very important, always. Oh, Mark. Thank you. Yes. Actually, in his recipe, he uses like loads and loads of mayonnaise. I wouldn't say I used loads of mayonnaise, but definitely a decent layer of mayonnaise for sure.
Speaker A
And you need good bread and it has to be toasted.
Speaker C
Yep. So I toast, so.
Speaker B
Or grilled. Or grilled.
Speaker C
So I toasted it and I grilled it because I wanted it to be like, I wanted it to be nice and crispy on the outside, but not completely. Like I wanted to keep some of the softness on the inside. So I toasted it just a little bit to get the inside and then I just grilled the bottoms. So that's what I had for dinner last night.
Speaker A
Sounds good.
Speaker C
I will say we are like both. My, my younger son is off at college now, so we are like empty nesters. So it does make cooking dinner a little bit easier, but like a perfect tomato sandwich with a little arugula. It was, it was a literal, I think a perfect sandwich. And I got to give the him credit. I can't remember what his name, but it's turkey and the wolf and oh, Mason, Hereford. That's the where I got the recipe.
Speaker B
That sounds really good.
Speaker A
Thanks for all your time.
Speaker C
Thank you guys so much for having me today. Such a highlight of my week and really just lovely to get to know you both just a little bit.
Speaker B
Thank you, Nicole.
Speaker A
Thank you, Nicole.
Speaker C
See you soon. Take care. Bye Bye.
Speaker B
Bye. Thank you to Nicole Dawes for joining us. Visit late julyatejuly.com and on Instagram @latejulyorganic. Visit nixi drinknixie.com and on Instagram at drinknixie. That's N I X I E. Thank you to my copy co host Markie and to our ever patient engineer Davis Lloyd. We're back next week.
Speaker A
Hey.