Li Hongzhang: patriot or traitor? - Episode Artwork
Technology

Li Hongzhang: patriot or traitor?

In this episode of Makers and Shakers of Chinese History, host Mark explores the complex legacy of Li Hongzhang, a pivotal figure in late Qing China. Known for his modernization efforts, Li's con...

Li Hongzhang: patriot or traitor?
Li Hongzhang: patriot or traitor?
Technology • 0:00 / 0:00

Interactive Transcript

spk_0 Hi and welcome to Makers and Shakers of Chinese History, I'm Mark.
spk_0 When I hear the name Lee Hong-jung, the first word that comes to mind is controversial.
spk_0 While some consider him a patriot for his role in pioneering China's industrial and military
spk_0 modernization, others see him as a traitor because of the numerous unequal treaties he
spk_0 signed which ceded Chinese territories to foreign invaders.
spk_0 By the end of this episode, perhaps you will decide for yourself whether he was a patriot or a traitor.
spk_0 Let's begin by opening a fact box about Lee Hong-jung.
spk_0 First things first, who was he and why should we know about him?
spk_0 He was born in 1823 into a scholar, gentry family in East China.
spk_0 At the age of 24 he obtained a Jin-shu degree and approximate equivalent of a doctorate degree
spk_0 which allowed him to become a grassroots civil servant.
spk_0 He grasped at all opportunities over the following years to gradually prove his ability
spk_0 and eventually led forces to suppress the typing rebellion, as well as many other rebellions.
spk_0 According to early 20th century historians, Lee Hong-jung had been in charge of China's politics alone for decades.
spk_0 After he quelled the typing rebellion, he played a decisive role on the national level,
spk_0 administering both internal and external affairs.
spk_0 Renowned Chinese scholar Liang Chuchao also wrote his own book entitled The Biography of Lee Hong-jung
spk_0 that stated that the biography equaled 40 years of the late Qing dynasty.
spk_0 Why was it Lee Hong-jung instead of the late Qing rulers who had been in charge of the dynasty's final decades?
spk_0 To quote the Chinese, a hero is nothing but a product of his time.
spk_0 To better understand that, you must first see the bigger picture of the socio-economic and political landscape in the late Qing dynasty.
spk_0 Following the two opium wars and the chaos caused by the typing rebels,
spk_0 the power of the imperial court in Beijing was hugely weakened, which merely functioned as the political center.
spk_0 South China instead enjoyed greater socio-economic military industrial and cultural growth,
spk_0 especially in the provinces of Jiangsu, Hubei and Guangdong.
spk_0 So the governors of these provinces held more power regarding the nation's lifelines.
spk_0 Lee Hong-jung was one of them.
spk_0 Lee Hong-jung was later promoted to a position that seemingly was the same as the Prime Minister or Grand Chancellor,
spk_0 but Lee had more tasks and challenges than his predecessors had faced over the thousands of years of Chinese history.
spk_0 He had to deal with foreign invaders.
spk_0 China had never been under so much pressure from Western powers, and Lee Hong-jung rose to the occasion.
spk_0 Remember in our previous episode that Prince Gong Yi Xin understood Westerners.
spk_0 He signed the Beijing Treaty with the British and French after the Second Opium War and founded the then foreign affairs ministry of the Qing Empire.
spk_0 However, Prince Gong was involved in far fewer diplomatic negotiations than Lee Hong-jung.
spk_0 Western powers only recognised Lee as their counterpart, rather than anyone else.
spk_0 They done their homework and believed that the real power in the Qing Empire was worth Lee Hong-jung.
spk_0 Even when he was critically ill at the age of 77, he travelled over 2,000 kilometres from Guangzhou to Beijing to preside over negotiations with the Eight Nation Alliance,
spk_0 including Britain, France and Germany in 1900.
spk_0 Wherewith the royal members of the court you might ask.
spk_0 Emperor Stauertz, she fled to Xi'an with a weak emperor Guang Shu after Beijing was occupied.
spk_0 Lee was desperately needed to talk with the foreigners about a peace treaty.
spk_0 Lee Hong-jung had his unique skills and irreplaceability in diplomacy,
spk_0 but his foreign policies and peace treaties also earned him many negative reviews.
spk_0 In 1885, at the conclusion of the Sino-French War, Lee arranged to treaty with the French,
spk_0 which recognised French control of all of Vietnam, originally China's tributary.
spk_0 This upset the Chinese public who said that the Qing Empire was not defeated on the battlefield, but at the negotiating table.
spk_0 A decade later in 1895, Lee Hong-jung signed the notorious Shimoneseki Treaty in which Taiwan was ceded to Japan.
spk_0 Failing to resist the Japanese army, the people of Taiwan were painfully grieved at the news.
spk_0 A scholar on the island named Chou Feng-jia wrote a poem,
spk_0 Primarily as the power to siege territories, alone official like me, is powerless to recover.
spk_0 Folks in the capital Beijing were very blunt in spreading their belief that Mr. Lee is a traitor.
spk_0 The reformists that Lee liked to support the donations gave him the cold shoulder and refused to be associated with him any longer.
spk_0 For US President, Ulysses S. Grant once listed Lee Hong-jung as one of the four greatest men in the world, regarding him as the Otto von Bismarck of the East.
spk_0 However, when Lee Hong-jung later visited Germany and met with Bismarck, the latter looked down upon Lee for the series of unequal treaties he'd signed on behalf of his country.
spk_0 So was Lee Hong-jung really a traitor? Did he fail to defend Chinese interests when dealing with invaders?
spk_0 Well firstly, if anything, he was a contributor to the modernization efforts of the Qing Empire.
spk_0 His encounters with foreigners told him that the Qing Empire had already fallen behind the Western powers.
spk_0 This realization came in the 1860s when the Industrial Revolution was taking place on the other side of the world.
spk_0 Lee was quick to decide that he needed to learn from the West to build a powerful army and cultivate knowledgeable scholars for the country.
spk_0 Starting in 1872, Lee sent Chinese boys to the United States for education.
spk_0 Those graduates later became the elite of different industries in China. Jan Tian-Yu, the father of Chinese railways, was one of them.
spk_0 In 1885, Lee founded the Tianjin Military Academy to train Chinese officers as part of his reforms.
spk_0 Mathematics, science, and various practical military subjects were taught at the academy by German instructors.
spk_0 It was Lee Hong-jung's proposals in education that blazed the trail for China's industrial and military modernization.
spk_0 Did he have to do what he did then? In his later years, Lee Hong-jung asked himself that question during a self-evaluation and described himself as a paper hanger.
spk_0 Now, a paper hanger, in Lee's time, was somebody who would apply a layer of paper to the walls of the room, but not for decorative purposes.
spk_0 In most cases, it was to repair a leaking wall or roof, or to give the house a facelift before celebrating a new year, for example.
spk_0 The house didn't get sturdier with the help of a paper hanger, it was only superficial, looking newer on the surface, and temporarily remaining wind and rain resistant.
spk_0 Until the next time you needed the paper hanger to visit.
spk_0 He compared the Qing Empire to a shabby house, and he, the paper hanger.
spk_0 He said that people who live in the house don't care what material they're using to protect the house.
spk_0 If there are a few minor holes caused by wind or rain, they would call him to repair them, and it would work for a while.
spk_0 But if all the paper was torn off and they were not ready to use alternative materials to control the damage, no matter how the repair affixes it, it can't be fixed.
spk_0 In this case, how can the repair be responsible for the damage?
spk_0 Lee believed that he had neither the ability nor the conditions necessary to turn things around for the Qing Empire.
spk_0 Liang Chiu Chow, author of the biography of Li Hong-Jang, said he respected Li's outstanding talents, but didn't approve of his values.
spk_0 The famous scholar and historian said, Li Hong-Jang had no concept of a country.
spk_0 He didn't know the relationship between a country and its government, between the government and its people, so he could only be a paper hanger.
spk_0 He had no guts to overthrow the rule of the Manchu Royals.
spk_0 Finally, many don't know that in 1895, on negotiating with Japan after China lost the Sino-Japanese War, Li Hong-Jang was attacked by a Japanese assassin who shot him through the left cheek.
spk_0 Despite the severe injury, Li continued the negotiations and stopped the war that the assassin wished to continue.
spk_0 However, the Chinese only knew that his role had led to a huge loss for the country.
spk_0 In 1901, Li signed his final foreign treaty and obtained the departure of the Eight Nation Alliance at the price of huge indemnities for the Chinese.
spk_0 Exhausted from the negotiations, he died from liver inflammation two months later, in Beijing.
spk_0 So, what do you think? Was Li Hong-Jang a patriot or a traitor? Or is it too difficult to call?
spk_0 Special thanks go to Sanliang Jong-Doo for contributing to the content of Makers and Shakers of Chinese history.
spk_0 If you like the show, be sure to subscribe via wherever you tune in and give the show a rating. I'm Mark.
spk_0 Thanks for your company, and goodbye.