Technology
Jeffrey and Ghislaine’s Secrets | Part 4
In Part 4 of 'Jeffrey and Ghislaine’s Secrets,' the podcast delves into the events leading up to Jeffrey Epstein's arrest in 2019, exploring his past legal troubles and the cultural s...
Jeffrey and Ghislaine’s Secrets | Part 4
Technology •
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Campside media.
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It's a hot July afternoon in 2019. Jeffrey Epstein is in his plane, flying high as he's done in the
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past with President Trump, President Clinton, all sorts of luminaries. But they're not here now.
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He's getting ready to land at Tidabara Airport, a private terminal about 40 minutes from Manhattan.
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Perhaps he looks out of the window at the New York City skyline, shimmering and shining at golden
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hour. Maybe he gazes out at the Hudson River, or maybe he stares straight ahead, debating what to do now.
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Epstein has been spending time in France, but he will soon be landing on US soil.
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And on that soil, federal agents are waiting.
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Because the federal government has taken notice of the sweetheart deal he was cut way back when
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in Florida. They've been investigating. Now they're ready to arrest and indict Jeffrey Epstein.
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Again, he could flee to Iran or another country the US doesn't have an extradition treaty with.
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But right now, in this plane, he comes home. Maybe he thinks he's above the law.
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After all, he didn't really face consequences in Palm Beach.
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Why would this be any different?
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This is an infamous miniseries, Jeffrey and Gilen's secrets.
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I'm Natalie Robemod, and I'm Vanessa Gregoriatos, and this is episode four.
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Did Epstein kill himself?
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So before we explain how exactly Epstein's arrest came about, and what happened after that,
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we need to go back in time a little bit and pick up where he left off in the late 2000s.
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Epstein's Palm Beach case resulted in a pretty cushy deal for him.
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He signed a non-prosacution agreement, which meant he pled guilty to lesser state charges to
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avoid federal ones, and served a very light prison sentence. But from a prosacutorial standpoint,
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one good thing did come out of this deal. Epstein was forced to register as a sex offender.
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I've followed him quite a bit on the website of the sex offender is here in Florida.
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That's Joe Say Lambier, a former Palm Beach post reporter, turned private investigator.
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Every time he went somewhere, he had to tell the system.
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So we could follow him, which was sort of interesting, but he was going from New Mexico to
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Virgin Islands, then to New York, to Liansky.
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Joe Say watches as Epstein travels freely between his luxury properties.
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Many of them places where Epstein has also assaulted women over the years.
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And nobody seems to care. But one of those victims, Virginia Dufre, also known as Virginia
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In 2011, she goes public with the claim that when she was 17, she was sex trafficked by Epstein
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to Britain's Prince Andrew, the brother of King Charles. She alleges that Epstein flew her to London,
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and that Gillen told her that she had to do for Andrew what she did for Jeffrey.
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Gillen woke me up in the morning and said, you're going to meet a prince today.
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I didn't know at that point that I was going to be trafficked to that prince.
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I knew I had to keep him happy because that's for Jeffrey and Gillen, what it was
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expect from me. At this point, Virginia seems to be characterizing herself as a sort of
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live-in sex slave to Epstein. It turns very sexual and it was abused right away from both of them.
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Gillen, of course, denies Virginia's accusations.
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What an even bigger word than bullshit.
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As evidence of her claim, Virginia shows the Daily Mail a photograph she has in her
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possession. She says it was taken in 2001. You've probably seen this picture.
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Prince Andrew's wearing a blue-collared shirt and he's got his arm around a young blonde woman.
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That's Virginia. She's in a baby pink tank top and she's resting her hand on her hip.
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Gillen stands in the background, smiling, in a white turtle neck sweater.
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Here's what Gillen has to say about all this.
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Alligation was that we went to London especially so that
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we'd have a relationship with Prince Andrew and she was paid a fast amount of money
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for that purpose and that she then got in my bathroom in my house in London and had sexual
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relations with them and then went into my guest room and had full-blown sex and photograph was
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taken of them just before all these events took place in my study.
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Okay so the first thing about that specific weekend was it's my mum's 80th birthday and I was in
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the country and I have some corroborating evidence for that and a lot of testimonial that you
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can check. The second reason why probably maybe even the more important reason that my
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mum's birthday that I think it's absolute rubbish is that Prince Andrew, the idea of him
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doing anything of that nature in my house that's the size of this room, is so
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mind-blowingly not conceivable to me as the man or what I just can't even know.
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Is there any way that I could have happened? No my house was tiny I think it's 900 square feet
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in total. It's a worse, a gorgeous little place but it is the size of it not if you
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make a noise that saved a little bath or something. You'd hear it where she says that they had
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relations in a bathroom. First of all the bath is an old Victorian bath and quite small.
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They're tight for me so I had a description of whatever the two people were doing in the tub.
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That would work. As for the photograph, Gilen claims it's doctorate. Prince Andrew says he had
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no recollection of it and publicly doubts whether the hand was his. In the UK it's huge news.
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Prince Andrew is taken to task and loses much of his statue in reputation. We'll be talking a lot
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more about Prince Andrew next episode. But in the US at this point in 2011 Virginia's story
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doesn't really get mainstream attention. Thomas Volt Show, the CUNY professor and reporter,
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recalls the coverage of Epstein during this time. Conchita Sarnoff writes pieces at the daily beast
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and Epstein shows up in the editor's office. He gets past security and he's sitting in the chair.
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When Tina Brown comes into her office, he tells her like stop, stop reporting, stop publishing
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these stories. He's trying to intimidate her. ABC decides to do the story and there's film of
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Virginia Roberts speaking to Amy Robock. I've seen clips of it where she basically gives the whole
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story. But it never comes out. Helen Dershowitz takes credit for stopping that story.
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Epstein continues to live his life, largely unscathed. He keeps hanging out with his famous friends.
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At least most of them. President Bill Clinton appears to distance himself from Epstein after
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the Palm Beach case, though not all politicians and figureheads do. Ahud Burak, a former Israeli
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prime minister and former head of intelligence, continues a relationship with Epstein,
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per leaked emails. In the business world Microsoft billionaire and philanthropist Bill Gates
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actually forges a relationship with Epstein after he's convicted. Some of these men, including
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Ahud Burak, have denied knowing about the allegations against Epstein. In my experience, though,
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most high-powered businessmen and politicians of this caliber have chief of staffs or assistants
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whose job it is to screen potential business associates and give their boss a heads up if anything's
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amiss. So it stretches the limit of credulity to imagine that these men didn't know. An Epstein
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for his part makes light of the charges. He's like the emperor of all he sees. He thinks there are
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no consequences for his actions. According to the New York Times, Epstein even tells people that what
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he had been convicted of, soliciting prostitution from an underage girl, was no worse than, quote,
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So Jeffrey Epstein is just living his life, eating clean as he likes to do,
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lots of dips in the pool, hanging with important men who he makes feel manly by having so many
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good-looking young women around. When in 2018 the Miami Herald runs a series by Julie K. Brown
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called Proversion of Justice. The Miami Herald was able to identify nearly 80 girls who were
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molested by Epstein dozens more than investigators. We were victimized by Jeffrey Epstein,
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then re-victimized by the government. Julie Brown's reporting digs into the unbelievable deal
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Epstein received. Made all the more timely by the fact that Alex Acosta, the man who negotiated
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the plea deal back when he was US Attorney, had recently been named US Secretary of Labor by Donald
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Trump. But there's a cultural shift that's happened too. So Julie Brown's stories are post
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me too after there have been like revelations of powerful people engaged in sexual assault and
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other types of misconduct becoming more widely known. There's like this national reckoning.
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Now these young girls aren't viewed as so-called budding prostitutes. They're seen for what they are,
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victims. Julie's series spurs the feds into investigating. It's sort of amazing that a piece of
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journalism can do this, but it does. The fed starts surveilling Epstein and notice inconsistencies.
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They'll say he's going one place, but then they'll track his plane and say hey, it's landing in all
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these other countries like it's in Morocco, it's in Belgium. He only said he was going to Paris.
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When it comes time for his arrest, Epstein is in France. I think that's because the
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Asia consent there was 15. But when he gets to Tida Bar, it's all over. There's a clandestine
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FBI NYPD joint task force at Tida Baro Airport. They're hiding out on the runway and unmarked cars.
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So after it lands and taxis and the steps come down, the feds, they board his aircraft,
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announce his charges and arrest him. Epstein is arrested and charged with sex trafficking of
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minors and conspiracy to commit sex trafficking of minors. He goes to jail and downtown Manhattan,
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a waiting trial. And you probably know the contours of what happens next. It's a political
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maelstrom, a shit storm. Labor secretary Alex Acosta resigns over his part in Epstein's
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non-proscution agreement. President Trump comes under scrutiny for his friendship with Epstein,
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and there's an increasing sense that justice will finally be served. When investigators search
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Epstein's property, they even find hundreds of nude or semi-nude photographs of women and girls.
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Epstein enters a plea of not guilty, but things aren't looking good.
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He's down in near the Brooklyn Bridge in a concrete prison that's very poorly run,
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has cockroaches on the floor. He'll leak in his toilet, would run and keep him up all night.
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He's not sleeping well. He doesn't look well.
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Mentally, Epstein apparently isn't well either. He's cold and he knows it.
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There's a first suicide attempt in July. His inmate alerts the guards. Like guard, guard,
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come here. He's down. He's got something around his neck. He's on the floor.
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He's put on suicide watch and assigned an inmate suicide companion counselor. Someone to check
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on him. So that inmate suicide companion counselor I spoke to said that he saw a market decline in
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Epstein. Like he said, he started to eat us, sit on the floor to eat his food. But then Epstein's
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the very night that his cellmate was transferred out, he picks that opportunity to hang himself.
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This grace financier Jeffrey Epstein has taken his own life while he was behind bars here in New
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York City. Wherever you fall on the Epstein murder conspiracy, you've got to hear how weird that
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night was in prison. The guards who were on duty didn't perform the rounds they were supposed to
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perform. Epstein wasn't assigned a new cellmate when he definitely should have been.
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And CCTV footage that was later released was missing a minute of its recording.
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Gilan seems to be in shock. She doesn't think he would have done this to himself.
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I do not believe he died by suicide. Do you have any speculation or view of who killed him?
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I don't. Why would somebody kill him in prison?
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In prison, where I am, they will kill you or somebody can pay a prisoner to kill you for
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$25 worth of a commissary is about the going rate for a hit with a lock today.
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But Volshow isn't convinced. First, he says the crime scene was very standard.
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His prison cell looks like a textbook suicide that you find in a prison or a psychiatric institution
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where somebody ties a bunch of ligatures at a bedsheets and hangs them self from a bunk bed.
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Secondly, prison is a notoriously tough place for a child baluster.
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When middle-class men get locked up in prison or jail,
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pending trial for sex crimes against children or minors, their suicide risk is extremely high.
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And sometimes it's the fall from grace to the community. It's the pressure from other inmates
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who may have children of their own and want to do the person in.
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But with Epstein dead, someone needs to be held accountable.
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And that someone is going to be his dark-haired British companion.
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Remember, Gaelin wasn't charged in the 2006 Palm Beach case. She's even been warring with
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Virginia, the two of them filing defamation suits against each other, each insisting that the
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other is lying. But in 2019, after Epstein dies, the spotlight hits Gaelin square in the face.
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Here's Virginia. She's worse than Epstein. She did things even worse than Epstein did.
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She was vicious. She was evil. And she was a woman. Jeffrey was a sick pedophile.
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But she was the mastermind.
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Gaelin hides out in the Northeast, known as quite sure where she is. And then one day,
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a photo pops up online. It's so odd. It's a photo of her sitting at an in-and-out burger in LA.
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In front of her, a book entitled The Secret Lives and Deaths of CIA operatives.
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It seems like she's sending a message that Epstein was a spy or somehow had intelligence ties,
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like her father, Robert Maxwell, and that maybe he was killed to protect powerful people.
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She disappears again, and then, about a year later, in July 2020, Gaelin is arrested.
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She's charged with sex trafficking, among other crimes. The evidence in her trial isn't
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particularly strong. And you can make an argument that she also gave her life to Epstein,
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to whom she paid fealty over and over, but did not love her.
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But still, she is found guilty. Convicted sex trafficker, Gaelin Maxwell, just sends to 20 years
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in prison. Now she's behind bars. But the story doesn't die. Even though it's proven that
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Epstein molested and sex trafficked girls, two big questions remain. Was Jeffrey arranging sex
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for other people? Was he getting compromising material on them?
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So if you've been following this story, or even if you haven't, you've probably heard a lot about
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Epstein's Flight Logs, his little black book, his client list. All together, there are a list of
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people who have written on his planes, his address book of personal friends, all the people he managed
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money for. This group of people and these documents have taken on an almost mythic quality,
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as though the papers contain the truth to all the corruption of government and civic life.
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A societal skeleton key that can unlock the dark molesting secrets of what some call the
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Illuminati, the world's 1%, the elite. And it's true that the names in the flight logs touch
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every part of US industry. Larry Summers, former Harvard president, US secretary of the Treasury,
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there's Marvin Minsky, the AI pioneer and MIT mathematician, even Kevin Spacey, the disgraced actor.
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There are people from all across the political spectrum, and they're all coalescing on one man's
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plane. So does that mean they were bad actors, or were they just friends with him, or did they just
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want to grieve right? It's difficult to say, and undoubtedly it's different in each case.
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But the feeling, at least in popular culture, is that merely being mentioned in these documents
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is enough to ascribe you some amount of guilt. Lamby Hay says this idea of guilt by association
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is dangerous. He's got all kinds of people in there. He's got people at Google. He's got top people
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in the biggest companies in America. Are they pedophiles? No. You have to be very careful when
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it comes to the black book or the flight logs. It doesn't mean that every name is a broken individual.
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That's not true. There are some standup people in there. So I would caution people, and the conspiracy
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theorists are there. Be careful. Not everybody needs to be painting the same light here.
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What a lot of these people are guilty of, for sure, is hanging out with a registered saxophender.
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For having dealings with a man who had already been convicted of solicitation of prostitution
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of a minor, and that was the thing he pled to, this man was known for his perverted lifestyle,
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and it's a lifestyle that they may have just turned a blind eye to.
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And it doesn't help that two of the people who signed his infamous birthday book, which you may
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lend, made for his 50th birthday filled with letters and messages from famous people,
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happened to be former presidents. If you haven't seen the birthday book and it is available online,
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you can just dig for it. It is pretty weird stuff. It's just page after page of pictures of Jeffrey
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with half-naked women. There's crude drawings of girls massaging him. There's a lot of dirty stories
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told by dirty old rich men about Epstein picking up women. And there's some stuff from the women
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themselves. Some are actually quite enthusiastic about Jeffrey. They say things like, this is in a
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section called assistance. Before Jeffrey, I was a 22-year-old divorcee working as a hostess
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in a hotel restaurant. After Jeffrey, I now live in New York. I've traveled to London, Paris,
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Milan, Copenhagen. I've met Prince Andrew, President Clinton, the Sultan of Brunei, Donald Trump.
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This letter ends with a picture of her walking arm in arm with Jeffrey while he has his hand down
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her pants. And then of course, there's a note from Bill Clinton who wishes Epstein a happy birthday
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and says, it's reassuring, isn't it? To have lasted so long across all the years of learning and knowing
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and still to have your childlike curiosity that drive to make a difference and the solace of friends.
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And there's the now notorious message from President Trump. It's written as a mock screenplay
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in case in the outline of a woman's body, just really odd kind of cartoon there.
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And there's this imagined dialogue between Jeffrey and Trump. It reads, there must be more to life
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than having everything. Yes, there is, but I won't tell you what it is. Normal eyes, since I also
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know what it is. We have certain things in common, Jeffrey, and then they talk about having
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a secret. And Donald Trump, after all this, signs his name in the area of this woman's outline
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that all this text is inside in a way that sort of looks like it's the woman's pubic hair. I mean, what?
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In her interview with the DOJ, Kenlan talks a bit about the president's that Epstein ran with.
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President Clinton and President Trump. Do you know whether, for example, President Clinton
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never received a massage? I don't believe he did. And what makes you say you don't believe he did?
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So that's a good question. So they spent time on the plane together and I don't believe there was
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ever a massage on the plane. So that would have been the only time that I think that President
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Clinton could have even received a massage and he didn't, because I was there.
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And you mentioned that early, at the very beginning of the conversation, you mentioned President
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Trump in the early 90s. Yes. What did you observe as far as President Trump and his relationship
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with you or Mr. Epstein? Well, I just want to say for my relationship with President Trump,
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relationships are big work, but I just want to say that I met him or I believe I may have,
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because of my father in the 90s. So my father liked him very much and he was really liked his wife
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as well, because he would both check his liking. And as far as I'm concerned, President Trump
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with all this very cool, very kind to me. And I just want to say that I find, I admire his
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extraordinary achievement in becoming the president now. And I like him and I've always liked him.
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So that is the sum of substance of my entire relationship with him. What about Mr. Epstein's
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relationship with him? I don't know how they met and I don't know how they became friends. I
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certainly saw them together and I remember the few times I observed them together, but they were
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friendly. I mean, social settings or is that in private setting? I believe I only ever saw them
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in social settings. I don't recall any private settings. So what she's saying is Trump's a great
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guy. He was friendly with Epstein, but maybe not that close. But she didn't see any funny business
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with President Trump. Certainly, no grabbing them by the pussy. And for that matter, she didn't see
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any massages with President Clinton either. Nothing that would entail the need to wash a blue
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gap dress. To me, it seems that Jeffrey Epstein operated a pyramid scheme for his sexual desires.
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Employing a staff of women who are all working together to arrange sex and find new women for him.
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In this environment, it doesn't stretch the imagination that some of the women around Epstein might
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have had sex with other men, men who frequented Epstein's houses. But in terms of underage women,
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we just haven't heard that entered into the public record for many different women yet,
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and they're supposed to be over a thousand women who are victimized by Jeffrey.
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Gillen, however, poo-poo-s the idea that Epstein was providing sex for his associates at all.
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Would be with him if he was a creep, or because they wanted sexual favors.
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A man wanted sexual favors, he will find that. They didn't have to come to Epstein for that.
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But all this builds the idea that perhaps Epstein was learning in powerful men, girls, and women
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to get compromising material on the men. Footage or photographs that he could use to blackmail them
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down the road. A recent New York Times investigation of Epstein's men had an apartment
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show that it was wired with cameras, and maybe those cameras made recordings for Jeffrey's own
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pleasure, more for leverage. As of now, though it's been reported that the FBI has these tapes,
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no public tapes from those cameras exist. If I'm being honest, I do think Epstein probably
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sought to get leverage over people. To me, Epstein seems like an operator, associate path.
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Someone who was in turn charming and manipulative, who will stop at nothing to advance in the world.
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So it makes sense to me that he would use both the carrot and the stick, dangling the carrot of
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fun parties, free plane rides, gorgeous homes in which friends could stay, and maybe also some sort
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of stick. Information that could be weaponized.
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Vosual believes Epstein was a master at getting information he could use to intimidate.
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He points to Epstein's relationship with Bill Gates as a possible example of this.
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He was courting Bill Gates, I'd say from 2010 through like 2014,
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Epstein did not get Bill Gates to be his number one client.
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So at some point, as reported in the Wall Street Journal, Epstein
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informed Bill Gates that he knew that Gates had this young Russian woman who was in her early
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20s that he had an affair with. So it's kind of like this intimidation thing. Bill Gates, I think,
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has no prenuptial agreement. And Epstein probably knows this. And he lives in Washington, which is a
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community property state. So like the fortune should get divvied up 50-50 legally.
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Vosual thinks Epstein also potentially had access to information his clients might not want
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getting out. Say if Epstein were bargaining some sort of plea deal.
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When you're a financial advisor, you have a lot of access to personal information about people.
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So if he wanted to, he could theoretically use some of that information, which I think
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could involve like money laundering and tax evasion. As for the Compromise, the idea that
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Epstein was collecting compromising information on people that he could use against him,
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Gillen says there is no way. She even plans what was going on with Epstein on him taking the hormone
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testosterone. I don't think that the man I met is the man that he became. I believe he became
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that man over a period of time. He started doing testosterone and that altered his character.
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And I believe that started in the late 90s. When you say that altered his behavior,
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you're saying it made him get more massage. Well, he became more aggressive. And I think that
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the testosterone altered his desires or something. But the problem with trying to decipher what was
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really going on is that both Epstein and Gillen are such big talkers, such braggers, name droppers,
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and sometimes prviaricators that this entire story has built up into a national game of telephone.
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Epstein often told people incredibly tall tales and they passed them on and on and on and now we're
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just mired in this gossip. And then there's the fact that Gillen denies that she ever did anything
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sexual with Epstein and other women, which she has been convicted of. Did you participate in
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sexual activity with him with him a suit like at the same time? Yeah. And so the
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women who have said that that happened categorically, that's not true. That is categorically
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but then she goes and says this. I mean, I remember there'd be times when he'd be getting a massage,
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I would be in the room, I could be on his feet and somebody else could be on his feet and we could
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be talking. So there's that. But that's not you're not talking about something that's sexual,
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you're talking about literally just rubbing its feet. Yes. Okay. But I mean, that's not what I'm
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talking about. Sometimes the women might be told us who are giving that. So you could say that
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with sexual in context. Yes, you could say it was sexual and then she says this. The only way I can
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try and describe it is through sex in the city. The show on Telly, that lifestyle is described
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on the TV show constantly. There's always these women around and men who like it. Okay. That is quite
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minimizing. And today she is still in prison serving her 20-year sentence, though there is definitely
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a freed-gloene movement that is trying to prove her innocence. And she was recently transferred to
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a lower security prison, a minimum security institution in Texas and we'll be getting into that
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next episode in our wrap up. Virgin Yutu Frey for her part died by suicide in April 2025.
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Not everyone believes all of her stories either, but a book she wrote before her death is scheduled
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for publication at the end of October. And Epstein, well, he lied about a lot of stuff,
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but the craziest and wildest tale ended up being about his death by dying under such strange
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circumstances. The years may come and go, but every so often he's going to pop back into the news
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and the whole country will wait and watch for the truth.
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Next episode on our fifth and final installment of our series on Jackery Epstein will tie up a bunch
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of loose threads from what we've talked about and we'll go deep on the case of that royal who has
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been some my ex-communicated now by First the Queen and now King Taros. I'm talking about Prince Andrew.
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He did stand down from royal duties. The Queen still stood by him, she made him a vicerad rule.
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He didn't lose his dukedom, so it's a slightly mixed message, but I think the reason for that
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and the reason Sarah Ferguson is there is they need to keep them close. They're worried what stories
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that they can tell the press, would they leak stuff to a tame journalist or writer.