Jane Addiction

Interactive Transcript

Speaker A This September at Hauser and Worth in New York, Ambera Wellman will present Darkling, a suite of absorbing, otherworldly oil paintings. Motivated in part by her upbringing in rural Nova Scotia, her compositions offer complex entanglements between animals and humans, the organic and the man made, exploring paintings role in the midst of the climate crisis. In this new body of work, Wellman engages subjects ranging from funerary rituals and strip clubs to compositions that defy genre even as they draw upon celebrate the painterly innovations of such historical masters as Goya and Courbet. And Beryl Wellman's inaugural exhibition at Hauser and Wirth, Worcester street will coincide with the presentation of new works by the artist entitled 1000 Emotions at Company Gallery at 145 Elizabeth street in New York. Visit houserworth.com for more information and visit Darkling at 134 Worcester street and 1000 Emotions at 145 Elizabeth street in New York. Now through October 25th.

Speaker B Hello and welcome to Fashion People. I'm Lauren Sherman, writer of Puck's Fashion and Beauty Memo Line Sheet, and today.

Speaker C With me on the show is the one and only Marissa Meltzer, author of It Girl the Life and Legacy of Jane Birkin. We discuss the book, the Business of.

Speaker B Being a Style Icon and so much more.

Speaker A Before we get going, I wanted to remind you that if you like this podcast, you'll definitely love Puck, where I send an email called Line Sheet. If you're a fashion person, you get that reference.

Speaker B It's an original look at what's really.

Speaker A Going on inside the fashion and beauty industries. Line Sheet is scoopy, analytical and above all, fun. Along with me, a subscription to Puck gains you access to an unmatched roster of experts reporting on powerful people and companies in entertainment, media, sports, politics, finance.

Speaker B The art world, and much more.

Speaker A If you're interested, listeners of Fashion People get a discount. Just go to Puck News Fashion People to join Puck or start a free trial. Happy Friday everyone.

Speaker C Hope you're having a great week.

Speaker A I am in Paris.

Speaker C I'm a little sick. I'm getting extremely funny texts from someone who listens to this podcast at the moment.

Speaker B Don't hug me.

Speaker C I'm sick. Oh my God. Just getting so many funny texts. I love all of you, but I hope you're having a good time in Paris. I I'm having a pretty good time as always. Lots of weird stuff going on. Lots of drama, lots of intrigue, lots of meeting you all on the street, which is fun. Shout out to the people who helped me the other night in Thursday's line sheet. You'll find my Dior take with some additional reporting and info you won't get anywhere else. Really, really complex. Lots to unpack there, as they say. I also have reports from Tom Ford and Korege and a bunch of other Marie, Adam Leonard, lots of good shows and, and on Friday and Monday there will be more, more from the shows. It's a really packed weekend. Lots of debuts still to come. And I hope you enjoy this conversation with Marissa. On Thursday, I went to Sotheby's for a lunch that was that she hosted and we got to, we got to see a lot of cool stuff. I think it's embargoed of what exactly I got to see. I not that I signed anything, don't worry. But like I'm gonna honor an em.

Speaker B From about this thing. I'm not going to be rude.

Speaker C But I also got to see many friends. Becky Malinsky, Nomi Fry, also Lauren Collins, Lindsay Truda, my two friends from Paris, Carla from Vogue.

Speaker B Like, it was just a really great crew.

Speaker C Taylor from Interview, Laura Riley.

Speaker B It was just a really good group of people.

Speaker C Marissa's very chic. She looked great in her Alaia and I hope you enjoy this conversation with her. You know, she, we are obviously friends and have a lot to say, but it was fun to discuss the sort.

Speaker B Of business of being a person who's closed other people copy.

Speaker C So enjoy and have a great weekend.

Speaker D I hope to see you around this week.

Speaker C Marissa Meltzer, welcome back to Fashion People.

Speaker D Hi. I'm so happy to be here.

Speaker B I'm so happy to be here today.

Speaker C You are here for a very special episode.

Speaker B But before we get started, what did you have for breakfast?

Speaker D Okay, so I don't usually eat breakfast, but I knew I was coming on, so I ate something so we could talk about it, which is. Have you heard of Burley Bakery?

Speaker B No.

Speaker D It's kind of the talk of the Upper east side. It's a British bakery that's owned by like the Maxims people and you know, the Burley family. And it's, it opened up just steps away from Central park, steps away from the Kate and Totem standoff. And it is, it's, it's very good. It's extremely expensive. They make their own ice cream and I think a pint is $36. And they make their own chocolates, which are delicious.

Speaker B I'm in the past. I'm in for anything that's $36 and that is ice cream.

Speaker D They also have like a very good, they have a seated area upstairs and they have this power bowl that's like coconut yogurt and like a bunch of fruit and nuts. It's very keto. Anyway, not that I am, because what I ordered was a croissant. And their baked goods and coffee are like, you know, the normal price of like a bougie bakery. But, you know, it's like if you want to know what the moms and the denizens of the Upper east side are wearing, you just have to go to Burley on a weekday or a weekend and pick up some iced coffee.

Speaker B I am going to be in New York the first week in November for a family trip. We're staying on the east side. Oh, you are? But further downtown. But I want to do a day where I come up really early and spend like most of the day up there and go shopping and go.

Speaker D We should go to the Frick. I'm a member. I'm obsessed with the Frick. And also the Frick restaurant is great. People watching and also very delicious.

Speaker B Great. Okay, maybe I'll just work. I'll. I'll start at Burley for breakfast. I'll do a breakfast meeting and then work and then we can have lunch at the Frick and go to the. Yeah, because I have. I have been wanting to.

Speaker D And you can do shopping. Like there's a new call, Myers, the newish call Meyer store. Susan Alexander. I don't know what's opening, but she's opening a store right near there. Yeah, you know, Upper east side. Great.

Speaker B It is the new down uptown is the new downtown. Okay, Marissa, so you are here today to talk about your new book, It Girl, the Life and Legacy of Jane Birkin. Well, it's interesting because I actually, I wanted to chat with you about the fact that like, this is a real proper biography. It is not a book about how to get French girl style, which you could have done and could have pitched, but this is a proper biography about a really interesting. So I think to start. Why her? For the next subject of a book. And then also, why did you decide to do like a straight up biography and not. You could have formatted this in many different ways?

Speaker D Well, I think the book was not to sound like an ambulance chaser, but the idea did come after her death. And you know, as. As sometimes these things happen in book publishing and someone actually my editor at their time suggested it, but I don't think she really understood how much. She was at kind of the nexus of all these nerdy interests of mine. I love fashion, of course, but also, you know, have always been really into film and really discovered her through music in college. And then I also, you know, I speak French. I'm a crazy Francophile. I, you know, so that sort of aspect was really interesting to me. So she was kind of in the middle of all of these nerdy interests. And I do think that you've written a book, like, it's. The fun of it is you get, you know, sort of like a blank page in order to go as deep as you want to in a subject. But if you don't really. If you're not really interested in it, it's. That could be drudgery. So this book was just a complete pleasure, at least in like the research phase and stuff. Writing is always its own unique hell. But. But yeah, I, you know, there were moments when I thought, when I had a little more about kind of the selling of the French girl and, and sort of French girl style and its origins and the kind of like, at one point I listed every sort of French girl style book that I could find on Amazon, and there were like 30. But it just felt like there's. For me, for a book, there's always a certain point where I have to get out of my own way. And for this book, it was focusing on her life, which also meant there were, you know, long digressions about Serge Gainsbourg or some of her kids that I cut out. Because my issue with a lot of books is that there's two. You know, just because you have the information as a writer doesn't mean you need to share it. You know, maybe that's what your sub stack is for. Maybe that's what interviews are for. But, you know, there's a lot of things people do to kind of impede the. The narrative. And I think, you know, smart writers understand how to take that kind of like surgical precision in editors and keep the focus where it needs to be. I think the book has a lot of cultural context, but I also think that it doesn't kind of. You're not ODing on it. You're not like, wait, what were we talking about?

Speaker B No. And it gave me. Here's the thing. I think you're 100% right. And that whole sort of like, you don't have to put everything in it and kill your darlings is a common phrase in journalism. It's true. Like, you really do need to get out of your own way and keep it moving. And, and that is one of the reasons I think your books have been so successful, because they do that. And also her it's not. I mean, obviously you talk a lot about her the way she is, and that is a. And style. And I want to talk about the idea of a style icon and her and how she fits into all of that and in a minute. But her way of being was what.

Speaker A People were attracted to.

Speaker B And what you did was you showed instead of telling. So a lot of it is about, like, her, the way her life unfolded and why that made her intriguing as a human. Like the stuff about her mom who is a famous actress or sort of famous actress. Working actress.

Speaker D Yeah. Noel Coward, sort of muse. Yeah.

Speaker B Was it Judy Campbell or Judy Campbell? So it's interesting, like, seeing the photos of the two of them, I was googling to me, Jane Birkin is. Is like the, like the physical ideal of what. What I would really look like. But for her. Yeah. Yeah. I think she's beautiful. Like, I don't.

Speaker D Oh, I think she's beautiful too. It's just I'm. I'm sort of surprised she's so g. You know, like this or you want to be super skinny and flat chested and.

Speaker B Yeah, I mean, I'm already flat chested, but not.

Speaker D Oh, are. You know, I would never.

Speaker B Yeah.

Speaker D Oh, yeah.

Speaker B Oh, my God. Marissa, we. I'll show you someday.

Speaker D Okay. Well, you can. I sadly wear a D cup. And I've always hated it, but that's a story for another time.

Speaker B Yeah. But we can do a Boo. Bodies.

Speaker D We could do a body dysmorphia episode.

Speaker B Oh, yes. I. Yes. Oh.

Speaker D I mean, every episode of Fashion People, it's a body.

Speaker B Yes.

Speaker D But, you know, to bring it back to Jean Birkin actually is. There is a lot about her body. And I think it's really easy to look at her. She's so beautiful. And she had the sort of perfect body to wear clothes and of that kind of 60s and 70s era. And she felt super insecure about it. And then you see pictures of her mom, and her mom doesn't really look that much like her. Like, her mom was sort of more of like a golden age of Hollywood, 1930s kind of beauty. And so I think she always had this kind of insecurity that, you know, she was a late developer and, you know, that she was gangly, that she was so flat chested, that she was boyish. And, you know, and then those kind of translate into different things in her life, all the way down to aging and sort of, you know, not getting, like, her eyes done, which I think it's tempting to either say she didn't give A shit about those things. But she did. It's just more like she was sort of like, I could maybe I'll just cover the mirrors. Or it was like a constant sort of conversation of, should I? I don't know. And then she just never did. And I kind of think that's probably how many people age it is for me, like today I'm not gonna get my eyes done. Although I constantly think maybe I should. And there might be a day when I book it and there. But I also might die having never done anything. Like, it's kind of, you know, I think a lot of people are. Are, you know, there are people. There's a lot of people that, you know, are very public now that are very gung ho on all of that stuff. But I think most people are a little more like, can I afford it? Do I want a deal? Will I look better? You know, all that stuff.

Speaker B Yeah. And there are these sort of parallel narratives. And some of that, to me, it kind of goes back and I don't know how deep we can get on this or how I can make it not convoluted, but it's this like Anglo Saxon versus French and those two worlds and that way of being like the British sort of. It all is connected. And I think the way of thinking of how you address beauty, how you.

Speaker D Look, your relationship to pleasure. And I think actually in this kind of post Brexit era, it's even more pronounced. So I think that's a really interesting point and I think it's very true. You know, she grew up in a kind of upper, upper middle class family in England. And you know, it was. They were tight, but it was also filled with like a lot of unhappiness of like being sent to boarding school young and hating it, and this kind of stiff upper lip and the sort of tail end of rations and this very abstemious, sort of dark time in British history that I think is part of what, you know, propelled that like, swinging 60s. But then she moved to Paris in 1968 for. For work, for film role. But then she just never left. She had. Her family was still in England. She threw a sort of divorce settlement, got a. Had an apartment there. But I, you know, she was kind of back and forth in that she would visit, but she never lived there again and, you know, died at 76. So she really went on the side of France. And I also think one thing that's so interesting about her life is that she sort of fully embodied the swinging 60s youthquake. But then she moved to France and then fully embodied sort of the louche nightclub, you know, 1970s Yves Saint Laurent Paris, which is, I think it's rare for someone to kind of embody both times in different countries.

Speaker B Well, especially because she. If you asked a random 22 year old on TikTok is Jane Burke in French or English, they would say she was French because she embodied capital French girl style. And if you think of someone like Francois Hardy who was in kind of, if you look when you are researching this stuff when you're 15 years old, that she comes up a lot too, like Jane Birkin was way more famous. I want to get into that but really quickly. The thing that came up for me was interestingly Kristin Scott Thomas because she's almost the opposite. I mean, obviously not the same, not a style icon, but is an actress who obviously actually has really great style. But I always find her fascinating. She's very British to me, but she moves really well in French.

Speaker D She speaks French in French films. Charlotte Rampling is another really good example.

Speaker B Yeah, but the two cultures are so different. And why do you think Jane Birkin was able to make that transition, especially back then? Because it was pre European Union, there wasn't as much mixing. Like you go to France pre Eurostar. Yeah, exactly. You go to France now and everybody speaks English and there's people from all over Europe at least, but really all over the world. And there's no. It's changed so much in the last.

Speaker A 15 years in particular.

Speaker B But at that time it was, they were worlds away.

Speaker D Yeah, like I don't think there was probably McDonald's for example in France at that point or sort of this, you know, now you go to Europe but you know, really Paris in particular, there's you know, five guys burgers. There's, you know, there's just so much familiarity and kind of international chains and yeah, it really wasn't the case then. It really was not the case when I was there in college in the late 90s either. So yeah, that's absolutely changed. I think, you know, it's hard because France and Paris in particular I think is a hard culture to break into because people, because like Paris is so the center of the country so that it's not just, you know, you're not going to move away for different industries. They're all based there, all the great universities, universities are there so you can really be born there and make friends in grade school and just have those people in your life for the rest of your life. It's not, you Know, people aren't moving around for jobs, for example, the same way they are in the US because, you know, things are located in different places and. Yeah, so I think it can be really hard to break into. You know, most of my French friends are either maybe half American or they're married to a foreigner, or, you know, they're Americans who move there or, you know, or whatever. There's something about them that's sort of other and outsider. And. Yeah, Birkin really got accepted in. I think that part of it was that she started dating Serge Gainsborg right away. And he is kind of, you know, the. One of the most famous people in the country. He was sort of like their.

Speaker B I don't.

Speaker D I always say he's like a combination of, like, Bruce Springsteen and Phil Spector and like Barbra Streisand, like this kind of Bob Dylan, this sort of, like, troubadour that, you know, represents kind of the national identity. And so she was with him a long time. That probably helped kind of make her accept. But I also think she just had this kind of, like, willingness to just go full French and embrace it. But also, she wasn't trying hard because she still had this. This heavy accent. She wasn't pretending to be this kind of perfect French woman. You see often in Paris these expats who are trying to be better at being Parisian than native Parisians. And it's kind of. I get it, but it's kind of ridiculous.

Speaker B Yeah. Yeah. I think it's both are all. Are difficult. I lived in the UK in college and for two years after in London.

Speaker D Obviously, I imagine it's the same thing. Right.

Speaker B It was really hard. And now, again, it's different now because there are more. And let's see what happens post Brexit.

Speaker D But.

Speaker B Everybody'S friends from when they. From when they were five, because they all went to school together. These are very provincial places in some ways. And, like, proudly provincial and.

Speaker D And in a way that's kind of protective.

Speaker B There is this. Yes. And there is the aristocracy element of it and the class bit. Like you talking about her being like. It's not like they had a ton of money, but they were upper. Upper middle class. Like, it's not about how much money you have in.

Speaker D In. Right. Yeah.

Speaker B And it's about what family you're from.

Speaker D And so, yeah, there was some aristocracy. Her mom was friends with Churchill's daughter and was a roommate with her. You know, there was.

Speaker B She.

Speaker D Yeah, she grew up around all these kinds of rich people and then sort of seamlessly went into being friends with all these kind of famous people casually. Her brother did a lot of work with the Beatles, so she was just sort of casually friends with them. You know, that kind of classic, like, rich it girl character where, you know, she's just always been connected.

Speaker A This September, at Hauser and Wirth in New York, Ambera Wellman will present Darkling, a suite of absorbing, otherworldly oil paintings. Motivated in part by her upbringing in rural Nova Scotia. Her compositions offer complex entanglements between animals and humans, the organic and the man made, exploring painting's role in the midst of the climate crisis. In this new body of work, Wellman engages subjects ranging from funerary rituals and strip clubs to compositions that defy genre, even as they draw upon and celebrate the painterly innovations of such historical masters as Goya and Courbet. And Beryl Wellman's inaugural exhibition at Hauser and Wirth, Worcester street, will coincide with the presentation of new works by the artist entitled 1000 Emotions, a company gallery at 145 Elizabeth street in New York. Visit houserworth.com for more information and visit darkling at 134 Worcester street and 1000 Emotions at 145 Elizabeth street in New York. Now through October 25th.

Speaker E What's up, guys? It's Candace Dillard Bassett, former Real Housewife of Potomac, and I'm Michael Arsenault, author of the New York Times bestseller I Can't Date Jesus. And this is Undomesticated, the podcast where we aren't just saying the quiet parts out loud. We're putting it all on the kitchen table and inviting you to the function. If you're ready for some bold takes and a little bit of chaos. Welcome to Undomesticated. Follow and listen to Undomesticated, available wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker B So let's talk personal style, and then let's talk about her as a style icon and what that means and all of that stuff. Where do you think the person, do you think the personal style was just like, I'm British, I know about thrifting before people actually did that, and her just being like, super confident. Do you think it was unique to her? Like, how was she buying this little basket and making that a thing that now all these girls have low auve?

Speaker D I think that it's a combination. She definitely had that kind of British jumble thing where, you know, they were going to thrift stores and had this kind of like eccentric costume, costumey element that, you know, the, the, the continent certainly didn't have. You know, there was France was behind in that, you know, young women kind of dress like their mothers. Like, you know, they're wearing scarves and kind of, you know, smart shoes and smart outfits. And Britain, I think the rebellion kind of like in the US Came a little bit before it did to France. And so, yeah, it's that kind of, like, long history of bohemians. Like, you know, the way that the sort of Bloomsbury set was. Was, you know, dressing up and stuff. So there was that element. And she was also from a theatrical family, so they were putting on shows all the time. So you had this. This probably element of, like, costuming yourself. And then, you know, as a teenager and into her early 20s, I think she was first just kind of trying to look cool and fit in and. And have be seen as attractive and interesting to guys and to cool girls. And she always thought she just sort of dressed like Jean Shrimpton or something like that. But I think eventually she sort of, you know, she had that inimitable thing where you just make it yourself. Like, that's why you can watch a hundred, you know, videos of how to dress like Jane Birkin. But it's pretty hard to nail it. I think that it was. She was wearing stuff that was authentic to her, things that she had picked up on. You know, her basket bag came from a market that was near the West End, where she was, you know, in plays. And the, you know, espadrilles were things that she bought on vacation. And, you know, she liked her white T shirts a certain way with, like, the collar kind of, like, pulled and messed up. And so I think she just stuck to things that felt like her. And then, you know, as she moved and became French and got older, she also kind of picked and choose which designer she wore. She was friends with Saint Laurent, so she wore a lot of Saint Laurent. She. She was never a Chanel girl. She loved Paco Rabanne and wore that. She was kind of, you know, she kind of knew her look.

Speaker B Yeah. Okay, so I want to talk about the Birkin bag specifically, also. And. And what you unearth, because it's been covered so much.

Speaker D But.

Speaker B But let's talk about this idea of style icon specifically. And also. So I was thinking about in my notes, like, a lot of the. It's interesting. Jean Seberg is also, like, someone who I think of in that era of. And she was American, obviously, but became famous for the Godard film in particular. But, like, there was also Catherine Deneuve, Brigitte Bardot, when I think of, like, style icon, and I close My eyes, I see those women. I see Jackie Kennedy. I see Carolyn Bessette Kennedy. I was trying to think who are women of color who are.

Speaker D Not a lot. Put Justine Baker a little bit. But that was more for her costumes. Yeah. Really whitewashed.

Speaker B So whitewashed back then, I think now, like, I think Rihanna will be the person who sort of is from our generation.

Speaker D I think once you get into the later 70s, you get some of the, you know, amazing, like, black models that Saint Laurent used and some of the ones from Battle of Versailles and stuff like that. But it's also different when it's a model versus sort of a woman considered a style icon. Yeah, I think Rihanna. But, yeah, it's. It was. You know, if race, you know, is a fraught subject everywhere. But in France in particular, you know, it's very multicultural there. If you're there and you realize it. But then if you were to look at a lot of sort of the idea of Frenchness in the world and the way that it's marketed and sold to people, you would just think it's a bunch of sort of, you know, bourgeois women wearing hand me down Chanel and Hermes scarves, and they're white and they're skinny, and they, you know, live in Sangarmein.

Speaker B Yeah. So why do you think she became such a quantity outside of the country? And especially because, like, most of the people who engage with her as an image are not very familiar with her work. And I think that this book that's a part of what is interesting about it is that it is going to familiarize people with more than her running into the Hermes air on the plane and creating the Birkin or whatever?

Speaker D Yeah, I mean, I. I think that she's. She was a bit odd in her fame. She sang, but she didn't have a particularly good voice. You know, she was very okay with kind of being this kind of quirky muse girl. I. Until I think she got older, and she was sort of sick of being that person. But I think she was happy to kind of embody this carefree English girl in the continent, you know, oh, oops, I'm wearing this sheer dress. I had no idea you could see my underwear until the flashbulbs went off kind of thing. Like, she was. She was sort of savvy, I guess.

Speaker B Do you think she was able to capitalize on her fame in a way? In, like, the modern way we think about that? Like, if she was, I mean, she wouldn't exist now. There's no one like that now, which is maybe something we can talk about. But do you think that she was able to like get the most out of what she became known for her currency or what have you?

Speaker D No. I mean, in a word, no. I think that, you know, it's to start with the Birkin. If you think about it. I think it sort of came out the same year as Air Jordan and all of that. And look how much money Michael Jordan has made. But of course those were, that was a broker deal and that, you know, fashion has this kind of history of, you know, you're inspired by someone. So I, I don't necessarily think she was robbed of that money, but she could have used the fame to try to do some other version of the Birkin that she, you know, designed herself and sold or something like that. And I. Part of the challenge and I think what's interesting about her life and about writing this book was that there isn't this super typical narrative structure of like, okay, well, she, you know, found her artistic voice and then she became a famous actress all over the world and she won an Oscar and you know, she came out with her own clothing line and you know, that's. And she's, you know, blah, blah, blah. She kind of wanted things on her own, very specific terms. And so she was happy to play some more like, you know, Carnegie hall of her old music. She eventually did like a sort of a collaboration line with apc, a tiny one. She did a scent with Miller Harris, but, you know, kind of small and obscure. But I don't think she wanted to do those things. And I also don't think she was that interested in trying to be famous in America or even the uk. I mean she acted in very, very, very few English language things and kind of, you know, the closest to like a big film would have been the Agatha Christie movies from late 70s and you know, those aren't that, they're not that big. You know, she, again, she wasn't Kristen Scott Thomas, Charlotte Rampling, Juliette Binoche, Marion Cotillard, these like, you know, sort of bilingual women that go between cultures.

Speaker B Was there anything. So while, while you were, I guess after the book wrapped up, there was the, obviously the giant Birkin auction that you covered for the New York Times. But there has just been like in the last year and maybe this is also connected to the fact that she passed. But the Birkin and the, the, the secondhand market for the Birkin and, and Hermes bags in general. But obviously this is the most famous one. And I also feel like the Birkin for a while there Was like a narrative that the Kelly was the like, cool bag. If you're gonna buy a beat up Hermes, you might want to get a Kelly because it's a little more structured and I feel like the Birkin has sort of come back for in the secondhand market where people who, yeah, I want a Birkin. Yeah, I would love, you know, I, I love. I've almost bought a Kelly many times. They're beauty. You have a Kelly, right? You do.

Speaker D I do. I have a really. I have like a 1950s.

Speaker B That's amazing.

Speaker D But I would like, I love it. But yeah, I would like a Birkin that's also like the Kelly is great, but it's quite, it's old and I, if I wore it every day, it would just keep falling apart. I've had it refurbished many times. So, like, I would love a Birkin that I could just beat up a little bit or just, you know, wear every day. Yeah, I mean, it's. It was so fascinating to me to think deeply about the Birkin, partly because she didn't seem to think about the Birkin bag all that much. You know, for most people, like being on a plane and meeting the, you know, whatever he's called, like chairman or chief, you know, executive at Hermes, and having them make a bag for you would be like the biggest day of your life. And it was just something that just happened to her. And, you know, the bag grew very organically and steadily. It wasn't this kind of launched it bag the way that, you know, marketing happens now. And I think it's a bag that just symbolizes that people have made it, you know, that they have the money or the access or whatever to own one. And, you know, I thought about her bags and that original one so much. And then it was, you know, after I was done, just after I was done writing, it went for auction. So it was strange to be sort of thinking about something so much and then to actually see it in person. It was like, remember when the Goldfinch came out and that painting happened to be, I think at the Frick in New York. And so it's weird to sort of envision something and see photos of it and then to actually, you know, it's kind of ghostly or something like that. And then to be in the room of the auction was fascinating because you also just see, even though they brought in a lot of storytelling around Jane Birkin and the Birkin, you know, people are there because of Burke and Mania and Hermes and the resale market and because, you know, The Kardashians own a million of them. Like, I don't believe there was anyone really from Hermes. There was no one from Jane Birkin's family. You know that it's not their narrative anymore. I mean, at least in the auction was not in Hermes narrative. So I think, you know, you kind of see how divorced it is from her, for better or worse. I think it must be odd to have the kind of most famous thing about you and your name belong to something else.

Speaker A Do you think that there is someone.

Speaker B Like what you are describing to me is an artist who had put a lot into the world and gave the world a lot and got back enough to like have an interesting life.

Speaker D Yes.

Speaker B But was not, she was not so.

Speaker D Ambitious that she was trying to be the richest or most famous or, you know, award laden person, which is, it's almost incomprehensible in these times. Like, why didn't you want more? Why didn't she try to, you know, get more money, capitalize on herself? Why didn't she try to break through into, you know, why wasn't she like a Miramax star or something like that? Like, why didn't she try to become more famous in the UK or America? And I think that she had that kind of, I would say French thing where, you know, she valued work, life balance, she cooked. She had like a nice but not overly fancy country house in Finisterre. She, you know, took vacations, she did her activism, she worked. But it, you know, she seemed to spend plenty of time with her kids and her grandkids and extended family and was very much there when her parents were sick and dying and when some of her partners were so. Yeah, I think, you know, one unique part of the reporting of this book is she had diaries that I had access to. And so you see kind of a, you know, a version of how she's spending her time. And she spends plenty of time touring or filming or whatever, but she also spends a lot of time just having life, which is really hard to understand as someone like me who has just no work life balance and also lives in a culture increasingly where you are supposed to try to be the best or ascend or get more money or fame or whatever. I'm, I'm certainly not immune to it.

Speaker B Well, that, that is the thing. It's, it's like in so many ways, I just don't know if people like that exist anymore.

Speaker D Like, I don't know if they do either. I mean, she certainly would have had, you know, even her kids have like Paid ad campaigns and stuff like that. Like, they're living a little more of a traditional, you know, fame life, for sure. You know. And, yeah, there's something about it that I find really aspirational. Like, in some ways, she was the perfect level. I mean, she was much more famous in France. She was very, like, stopped everywhere. But she also lived in normal neighborhoods and, you know, went to cafes and farmers markets and was always seen walking around with her bulldogs. And, yeah, like, Paris is kind of like New York, but maybe even more so, where famous people just live there and are seen and just kind of can kind of live a life. And she had that. And, yeah, had nice. Nice vacations and wore nice clothes, but it wasn't the most.

Speaker B Yeah, I mean, it is related to. I think it's all related to if we wanted to kind of walk it back to her personal style and why that's been so influential. I don't think there are people like that anymore either, where they just look effortlessly. They always say the end of cool and no one's cool anymore. And I think that's kind of true.

Speaker D Yeah, it is kind of true.

Speaker B But again, it's this idea of, like, we are also connected all the time and getting information all the time and striving all the time and all of it happening all the time, that it's actually quite hard to make a real impression on anyone. And she had this ability to sort of take hold. And that is. I think that's what. To me, that's what the book is about. Like, this kind of person that doesn't really exist anymore. And again, you're showing. Not telling. You're not saying that we need to go back to that. But I think it's a great example of how to live a life.

Speaker D Yeah. Contentment. Having. Yeah. Being okay with sort of enough. And also, I think the book leaves a lot of openness. Like, you can. There's things about her that are kind of annoying. Like, you can find her sort of manic pixie dream, girlish and sort of cloying if you wanted to. And she certainly had kind of, you know, relationships with people who are complicated and, you know, enmeshed in. In scandal and the French Me Too movement. She wasn't, you know, this kind of perfect paragon of empowerment or feminism or anything. But I think that's also part of why she was cool. She was a real person who was complicated and made bad decisions and looked cool. But also sometimes, you know, showed up in public looking like she just woke up and, you know, Was like, walking her dog just like anyone else. And, yeah, we just don't have that. Things are so manicured. I mean, I think now I always think about how, you know, Hollywood, like, junkets and film premieres have become this total costume party. It's like my bete noir. Like, we're wicked. So I wear pink and you wear green. Or, like, everyone at Frankenstein is wearing brown. Or, you know, everyone Wednesday is wearing these kind of goth outfits. And it's gone from wearing what you want to, like, getting dressed by a designer to now, like, you have to get dressed by the designer here, you know, have a relationship with. And they have to make something custom in the theme of Frankenstein. Like, it's just. It's so kind of embarrassing. I understand all the economic and fame reasons behind it, but she is the opposite of that. You know, you see her at Cannes sometimes wearing jean, like, jeans and a La Mer shirt and Converse, and sometimes dressed up in like, a one shoulder Azaro or something. It just seems like she was just looking and acting the way that she wanted, the way that many of us do, where sometimes you have something cute to wear and you feel like dressing up and you look cute, and sometimes you're like, I. The only way I'm gonna do this is if I don't have to make an effort. And I think that's so relatable. And I think that's also why she has this kind of coolness. Like, it wasn't brokered, it wasn't styled, it wasn't perfected, it wasn't commercialized in the way that we have now, which, you know, I think it's probably only get worse. I keep thinking it can't get worse, but it's just so whatever the opposite of effortless is, you know?

Speaker B Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, look, the pendulum, we like to say, always swings, but I think the reality of it is everything economically. Yeah, yeah. It's. I think, 100%. It's not fun anymore. And what is happening is that people are less interested in those things because they're becoming too pat. Yeah. So we'll move on to other things in our rapidly changing culture. Marissa, I have one final question for you.

Speaker C Okay.

Speaker B You spent a lot of time in France during this period. You have been researching and writing this book for what, two years or year and a half? What have you bought? What were you inspired to buy?

Speaker D This is a good one. I always say my greatest accomplishment is that I never got bangs. So that. That's not. I never cut my hair into bangs. Not That I would, because my hair just wouldn't work that way. Okay. I. I definitely bought a healthy amount of Alaia, which is not necessarily something that Jane Birkin wore. But I did go to the Alia Alaia archives as part of my research. And I just really love what's going on with Alaia now. And I'm into the knitwear in particular.

Speaker B It's great.

Speaker D It's so good. What else I bought, you know, I always buy have as much Chanel as I can afford. So, you know, there were a lot of like ballet flats purchased. That's probably the most, the most clothing item Jane Birkin and I have in common. There's a lot of ballet flats with Levi's kind of happening. And the last thing I bought was actually in New York, but it has kind of like a Jane Birkin frisson, which is this Alberta Ferretti, probably like early aughts, late 90s black skirt that has beading and kind of silk on it. That looks. It looks like me. It's kind of slinky. I wore it with like a T shirt, but it looks like something that Jane Birkin would have worn in like the late 60s, early 70s, a little bit. It's kind of my homage.

Speaker B I love it and I love you.

Speaker D I love you too.

Speaker B You're the best.

Speaker D I'm so happy to be here.

Speaker B Congratulations on everything. And I'm really excited everybody read the book. Like the one thing I found during book tour stuff, and you've done this many times over now, is that when you're talking, people sort of want to go through the entire book. People should read this book. Hopefully they'll read it before they listen to this conversation. But it really was, I would say it augments your life. It like adds to your life. It's not something that you're gonna be like, I knew all of this stuff. You're not gonna know a lot of this. And I think that's what's interesting if you're interested in her even just as a fashion person. Yeah, we didn't use it.

Speaker D There was some deep. There's a lot of deep Vogues and Marie Claire's and Elle's from the seventies. It's. It's fun. I. The feedback I've loved the most just from the people that have read early is like googling outfits, you know, like that I described, which is huge compliment. I love that.

Speaker B Thank you again, Marissa, and good luck.

Speaker A With the tour and I'll see you soon. Fashion People is a presentation of Odyssey.

Speaker B In partnership with Puck this show was.

Speaker A Produced and edited by Molly Nugent. Special thanks to our executive producers, Puck co founder John Kelly, executive editor Ben Landy and director of editorial operations, Gabby Grossman. An additional thanks to the team at.

Speaker B Odyssey, JD Crowley, Jenna Weiss Berman and Bob Tabador.

Jane Addiction

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