Technology
Is craft beer's popularity going flat?
In this episode of Make Me Smart, Kimberly Adams and Henry Ep delve into the shifting landscape of craft beer, exploring its declining popularity among younger generations and the economic factors con...
Is craft beer's popularity going flat?
Technology •
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Interactive Transcript
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Hello everyone and welcome back to Make Me Smart. I'm Kimberly Adams and this is where
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we make today make sense. Thank you all for joining us for our weekly happy hour economics
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on tap and joining me for Make Me Smart economics on tap this week is Henry Ep, Marketplace's
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but I know you all were looking for a local reporter and Henry has his own local reporting
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ties. Welcome to the show Henry. Thank you Kimberly it's great to be here. So tell us about that and
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not everybody knows that you've been a local reporter for a long time before you came to Marketplace.
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I was yeah I was a local reporter in western Massachusetts for a long time, local reporter and host
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and in Vermont and Vermont is where I still live because a lot of us at Marketplace work remotely.
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We're distributed all around the country so I get to do this job here from Burlington, Vermont.
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Yes and you had your buddy on the show the other day. Yeah Marlon Hyde, Shadow Tamarlin who's now
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in Georgia killing it. He was a fellow at Vermont Public Radio what maybe four years ago or more
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and I worked with him a lot when he was just starting out and it's just so cool to see him
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doing so great and then being on make me sprout a couple weeks ago. Yeah well look as everybody
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watching knows it has been a week of news but first we got a talk drinks and I probably should
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acknowledge where I am because I am not in my normal home studio or the bureau. I am in
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Castleton Virginia at my cousin's wedding hence the very big hat because it was an outdoor wedding
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and it was a beautiful ceremony so I dashed away just to hang out with our fun economics on tap crew
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for this but what did you bring to drink? I just have wedding wine. That's amazing. Well first
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off amazing dedication to make Miss Mardkin really to do this from a wedding. I am drinking a beer from
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beer brewery that's up the road here in Vermont called Zero Gravity. It's their October Fest.
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A Marzen Lager felt seasonally appropriate. Marzen Lager? Yeah I don't know what Marzen
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means but German Maltz and Hobs. Okay. Well I mean I feel like you are as much of a beer expert
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as Kai at this point because you did some reporting a while back about how the craft brewery business
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is like particularly robust in Vermont. Tell us about it. Yeah it is. I believe according to the
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Brewer's Association it has the most breweries per capita in the state and Vermont is a small state
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so the per capita thing gets a lot of play here but yeah we have a lot of really good craft breweries
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in Vermont. The story I did was you know featured a couple different Vermont breweries but was also
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from a national perspective sort of looking at what this industry group the Brewer's Association
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calls maturing craft beer. Basically the craft beer industry had a huge boom in the 2010s and
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for various reasons it is not so much a boom anymore. There were actually more breweries that closed
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in 2024 than opened which was the first time that's happened in like 20 years and I can get into
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the reasons for that. Yeah why I'm curious. So the way that it was sort of described to me by
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folks who are in this industry was you know in that boom time in the 2010s there were like a couple
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sort of big reasons for why it took off. One was capital was really cheap. Interest rates were
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really low. The ingredients, malt and hops and you know aluminum cans all that stuff was much
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cheaper because it just like wasn't a big thing yet and as more and more breweries opened it was
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the cool thing right like I can attest to this as like you know a millennial who came of age
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drinking age you know as the craft beer boom was happening like that was it was like oh there's
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a new brewery open let's go check it out right and basically all of those things have reversed in
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the last few years. Interest rates are higher ingredients, metal you know everything that goes into
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making beer and building a brewery is more expensive and it's not as cool anymore. Gen Z doesn't
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like craft beer like millennials did and they're drinking ice cream. Is it cringe Henry? I think
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it's cringe. I think someone in the story referred to it as a dad drink so I think it's a little
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cringe and there's other options right there's like hard celtzer you know there's mocktails there's
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like there's so much more in that sort of like having an interesting beverage space right and
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and you know 10-15 years ago craft beer was really filling that and had more of an exclusive hold
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on that. So you know we kind of threw it back old school this week there was so much happening we
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just decided to go with news fixes to high you know kind of round up what was going on and I wanted
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to highlight a story from Axios and the headline kind of captures a lot of what's been happening.
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Trump charts a path to total control amid the government shutdown and it just kind of clocks through
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all of these different things that Trump has been working on and doing all week in terms of
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really grabbing power especially through the office of management and budget during the shutdown
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pulling funding from cities and particularly blue states and all of that is going to be challenged
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of course trying to do more layoffs and potentially rescind even more funds and I thought was
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particularly interesting about this Axios piece is that they have a very interesting photo illustration
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of a golden throne with a make America great again hat sitting on it and having worked in a bunch
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of different countries I can say pretty confidently that were the things happening in this country
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happening anywhere else in the world we would be calling them authoritarian we would be calling
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them anti-democratic and I think this is a really good reason that we are having a conversation
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next week on the show kind of getting into some of the definitions of what these terms mean
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it was really fascinating in the aftermath of Charlie Kirk's murder to hear this narrative coming
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from many on the right saying that even describing some of these moves as authoritarianism were
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eliciting violence and I think it's important to know what these terms mean and yes be extremely
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careful about how we use them but it is unquestionable that this administration and they say it out
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loud are working very hard to consolidate as much power as possible in the executive branch
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Trump was shouting out project 2025 in Russell vote and they are being very clear that they want
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less bipartisan negotiating as part of the budgeting process they want less power for Congress
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in determining you know how as a check on the executive less power for judges especially at the
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district level in determining what the administration can or cannot do so I hope folks that are curious
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about these kinds of terms and this kind of narrative discussion points we'll send in their questions
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for our show next week we're going to bring on some experts to help us break down those terms
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yeah that's great and I mean as this actios story sort of I mean it's it's remarkable to sort of
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see it listed out I mean I mean this week included that you know the meeting in Quantico with all
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the generals oh my gosh yeah which I mean you know moves that the administration is is making
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towards academia and and you know so many other things and the ice raids in Chicago where they were
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dragging people out of their house in the middle of the night whether they were yeah guilty or not
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yeah it's it's it's dark and so I'll be really interested to hear those conversations next week
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okay I think you brought some more lighthearted news they call I did I well I saw I saw your choice
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and I was like maybe let's like go something a little more fun but I think there's like more
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context here that that sort of applies to you know some interesting things happening in the economy
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right now okay so the story is on September 30th AOL dial-up service officially ended so you know
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remember like the screeching like yeah like a thing in the 90s that's how I mean did you that's how
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I got on the internet yeah that's how I got on the internet yeah yeah yeah yeah absolutely so anyways
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that is officially over as of as of September 30th and I was reading an AP story about this
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and you know they mentioned that as of 2023 163,000 households were still using dial-up it doesn't
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break down how many of those were AOL but there are obviously other dial-up providers and so anyways
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I think it's it's a fun story to sort of you know be nostalgic or think back to what the internet
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was like at that time and sort of how things have changed but I think it's also a really interesting
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reminder of how companies can grow or shrink and develop over time and you know AOL was a huge
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deal in the late 90s in early 2000s during the dot com boom which kind of turned into a bubble
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and then burst and we are at a time right now when AI I mean folks in the AI industry in the tech
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industry are referring to it as a bubble Jeff Bezos talked at a conference this week referring to
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AI as potentially a bubble though he said you know good things will will come out of this right
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but I so I was looking at this a little bit more and another article from NBC mentioned that
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when AOL merged with Time Warner in 2000 their joint company was valued at $350 billion
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dollars I ran that through a inflation calculator that's $671 billion in 2025 that's why and it fell apart
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and I'm not saying this is what's happening now necessarily but open AI just finished a private
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share sale this week and their company is now valued at $500 billion so I don't know I think there's
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I think it's there's it's interesting parallels to this moment where there's this new technology is
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sort of flooding everything and investors are kind of going crazy for it and there's likely maybe
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probably going to be shakeouts of this at some point and who knows what will be referring to as
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you know the AOL of this era in 20 years there are a lot of fond memories of the handshake as they
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call the dial up handshake sound and you know this idea of the bubble is really interesting there
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was an interesting conversation in the Make Me Smart discord this week about whether or not what
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we're seeing in terms of the AI bubble is just Nvidia's money going around in circles and going
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like from Nvidia to open AI to Oracle back to Nvidia to open AI to Oracle or you know some other
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pathway like that and I think there is a lot of interesting reporting to be coming up on that and
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for one out to AOL from our youth I also remember in college because that was sort of as it was
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on the decline everyone using those mail in those CDs that they would mail you to get done
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and you'd use them as like decorations in your dorm room because everybody had so many of those CDs
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they were everywhere they would just show up and everyone's mailbox like yeah everybody already had one
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yeah and we turn them into like a wallpaper it's not any way we're eight we're dating ourselves
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we're sounding very old here let's take a quick break and when we come back we're going to play
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a game as you all know and love it half full half empty we'll be right back
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okay we are back and it's game time Drew Jostad is here to host a round of half full half empty
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Drew take it away I'm realizing we have a lot of AI and automation related questions today
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so here we go faced with a growing number of AI written admissions essays some colleges are asking
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for video application essays instead are you half full or half empty that's a tough one
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so like the the folks trying to get into college are they have to make a video instead of write an essay
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yeah right make a video just talking about themselves
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I don't know where you at with this game you know it kind of reminds me when I applied for my job
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at marketplace they asked me to submit a sort of analysis of two marketplace stories and
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sort of as well as sort of talk about my style of reporting and I did that by creating basically
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an audio story including a music intro my own narrative it was a song I'm an albatross by the way
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in case anybody is interested and clips from the audio that they had asked me to review my analysis
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clips from a recording that my brother had made for me of like the last of a thunderstorm in
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St. Louis that he had made me this big audio recording of it so I while I was living in Egypt I
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wouldn't be lo and some for like rain and so it was this big elaborate audio piece that I made
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for my marketplace application which got me the job but it kind of reminds me of that and I
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think it especially for a generation that is so video savvy that could be really good I'm I'm
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worried a little bit about the opportunities for discrimination and people who aren't so tick
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savvy but have other skills but I think the risk of AI and and that just being the shortcut to
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everything is too great so I'm gonna tentatively say half full what about I guess I'm a tentative
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half full to because I think you know being able to highlight people's creativity and intellect in
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different ways is important at the same time I like with a huge caveat that like people I strongly
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believe people should learn to write and should learn to write essays I think it's a really
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important skill and it makes me sad that maybe we are losing that or losing these sort of corner
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stones of that I would just hope that once you get to college you can learn to write an essay somehow
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and don't just run it through chat GPT I don't know I guess I have to bring back all the blue notebooks
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and make people write them freehand yeah all right what's the next one Drew next up are you
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have full or have empty on using robot arms and computer vision algorithms to automate the process
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of in vitro fertilization I think I may have shared the story on our Slack actually in the tech
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channel and I I think I'm gonna go half full because actually I'm I think I'm gonna go all the way
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full I'm blanking on the exact details of this technology but I know it was a story set in Mexico
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where they were using you know basically robots and AI and things to help with in vitro fertilization
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and I know so many families that have struggled to conceive and just how hard and how devastating
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and how much of a struggle that can be and just the emotional toll it can take to try to have
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the family that you want and so any technology that can make that easier on those families I'm
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gonna be on board for yeah I would go half full on that too for the for those reasons yeah yeah
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I mean if it's if it is improving the process of IVF and making it faster and easier for folks
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yeah absolutely yeah I'm going back to the story and looking for the inevitable part halfway
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through where they say that there's something wrong where it says none of these studies which include
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a first of its kind trial in 2023 by overture in a 2024 study by conceivable has demonstrated that AI
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enabled machines are markedly outperforming conventional IVF the researchers have found the
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software can excel at key parts of the process such as picking healthy sperm and some fertility
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doctors caution that these AI systems remain untested at larger scale and could at least
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initially introduce costs and burdens on overworked medical providers so I'll go back to half full
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you know there's always caveats yeah all right what's the next one Drew next up are you
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have fuller half empty on a new feature from open AI called instant checkout that will allow users
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to make purchases directly in chat GPT this is with Etsy yeah that they're starting this yeah that's
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the first one but it's gonna it's supposed to roll out more broadly eventually you know um one of
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our newsroom leaders Kelly Silvera when open AI was first becoming big I remember she had a very
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interesting comment on it she was like what is this for if this is just another tool to make us
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more efficient consumers is this any good is this just another tool to make us buy more stuff
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more efficiently for capital and it didn't take very long for that hard to come right back around to
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shop more um and look I know that AI was already in various kinds of machine learning we're already
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shaping our shopping habits but I'm gonna go half empty on this I I think there should be some
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barriers for purchasing to slow us down to just not be mindless consumers and good luck unwinding
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something that a chatbot purchased for you and you gave permission it's like but I didn't I didn't
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I you know how do you undo that yeah I mean are like are they literally doing the transit like
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are you just like okay yes I would like that thing and and like they put in the credit card
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information and like it's just happening okay is that what's the deal I mean like yeah I agree
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it's like I mean these companies have to make money at some point somehow right like they're not
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making very much money and so yeah like inevitably it's it is ads right like it's eventually
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it's gonna be ads and chat GPT probably right and this feels like a step in that direction
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my aunt Nina is half empty so there okay I'm going half I'm joining your half empty
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okay what's next year is it time for the poll yes give everybody get ready to vote
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my one question that isn't about algorithms this is a story from business insider
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pointing to things like quiet quitting or job hopping in the employee side
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and perfunctory layoffs and demanding hours on the employer side the question is are you
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half full or half empty on the decline of corporate loyalty wait the loyalty
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loyalty corporations have to us or the loyalty we have to corporations kind of just all around
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that nobody's really treating anybody with any loyalty is the idea I saw a video on some social media
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platform when I was doing scrolling where this guy was talking about this and how he had gotten so
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frustrated at younger workers just like wanting a promotion and wanting more money without
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proving themselves first and he realized it came from a place of well they've never lived in the
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gold watch era which he had to explain to the crowd you know of a company rewarding you for
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loyalty and rewarding you with caring for you with a pension with a promise that you were going
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to be treated with dignity at least like and so this younger generation has never experienced a
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workplace like that it's always been a every person for yourself you can get laid off at any moment
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and so why would they be loyal and so there's this concept of just get what you can while you can
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wherever you are yeah man I feel I think I would feel differently on different days depending
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what you ask you know when when I'd be asked about this I think yeah I think there's there's
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some amount of loyalty but it has like it has to go both ways right like it has to if you are going
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to give yourself to a job like there has to be some something in in return and obviously there's
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money involved but like if if they're going to be asking for a certain amount of loyalty there yeah
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it's got to be two way street I think oh Ryan Simmons says I just retired from NASA nothing but loyalty
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all around until this year no reason to be loyal until our country changes out well thank you Ryan
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okay well on that note it looks like 53% or half empty on the death of corporate loyalty 47%
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are half full I think that probably ties into sort of like which side of it are we really talking
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about yeah it's a mix right you know gin pecs as employers hit it well until recently and yeah
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too many changes David says half full on decline of loyalty to corporations that have no loyalty to
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workers half empty on corporations having no loyalty but to the almighty dollar and those who
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wield it well that's a powerful way to wrap up the game
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we are done with the game but before we go and before the last of the sun sets over the mountains
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in Virginia here we have a quick update on our fall fundraiser which wraps up tonight but you can
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still donate if you'd like to we are about 100 people away from our goal of 2000 investors it's not
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too late and we would really appreciate your support you can help us get there just go to
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in economic journalism that doesn't live behind a paywall and we really care about it and we try
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really hard to do it you can count on marketplace and make me smart for the news that you can trust
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and hopefully news you can use yeah and that's our goal right every story is our aim is to make
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help people different people in all walks of life are experiencing it so we are able to do that
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goal by heading to marketplace.org slash give smart or you can find the link in our show notes
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yeah plus we're fun to drink with come on yeah yeah and speaking of which thanks for joining us
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for make me smart Henry I appreciate it thanks Kimberly I loved it we are going to be back next week
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so keep sending us your comments and your questions we are at 508 you be smart or you can email us
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at make me smart at marketplace.org.
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Today's episode of make me smart was produced by Jesus Alvarado you may hear him on our tech show
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with help from Courtney Bergseeker today's episode was engineered by Charles Tendorque
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and the team behind our YouTube live stream is Emily McHughan and Antoinette Brock our
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interim supervisory senior producer is Stephanie Seek Nancy Fargali is executive producer of marketplace
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shows and Joanne Griffith is our chief content officer
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this week on million bazillion right and I are off to a sleep away camp for podcasters where we
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meet up with some other podcast friends for a very special episode about animals and money together
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we're going to tackle some very important questions like what animals should be in charge of the economy
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well like I said there's plenty of crossover between the animal kingdom and your world of money
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don't miss this special episode listen to million bazillion on your favorite podcast app