Introducing Part 22 Aircraft Certification via MOSAIC w/ Bill Snodgrass

Interactive Transcript

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spk_0 Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the more right-rutter podcast. My name is Sarah Stout and the program development manager here at Naffy and your host for this podcast.

spk_0 This episode is a bit different than some of our other episodes. We're releasing this in part 1 and part 2 to cover our mosaic content.

spk_0 This is part 2 where I'm joined by Bill Snodgrass who is a sport flight instructor, private pilot and ASTM voting member who also represented Naffy during the mosaic rulemaking process.

spk_0 If you haven't listened to part 1 already, be sure to listen to that where I'm joined by Samantha Boyer who also represented Naffy during the rulemaking process and is an associate professor of aeronautics at Embry Rittle Aeronautical University.

spk_0 In this episode, we cover what we know about the new part 22 light sport aircraft certification rules, as well as progress on the ASTM consensus standards development.

spk_0 Just a little bit about myself. I am a sport pilot CFI. I have a private pilot certificate. I started flying in 2004, but I got a sport pilot certificate and eventually got my sport pilot flight instructor certificate.

spk_0 Also went through the medical process to get a private pilot certificate. So I know a lot about the issues concerning people, you know, working with sport pilots and private pilots.

spk_0 I have about a thousand hours as a sport pilot flight instructor, you know, we're 2000 hours as a private pilot.

spk_0 And I am been involved in different aviation groups like Angel Flight West and the airport we have out here as well as a EAA chapter president, young Eagles coordinator lately. I'm now working with the ASTM used to be called the American Society for testing measurements, but it's not international standards.

spk_0 Which is the group that's working on the new part 22 light sport aircraft. And I am a task group leader for a couple of those groups and I'll talk a little bit about that. I've been working with light sports since 2004. I did weight shift control.

spk_0 And then currently I'm flying RV 12s for my flight instruction.

spk_0 Cool. I've got time in RV 12 so they're fun. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, I love I love them.

spk_0 They're great. So yeah, yeah.

spk_0 Thanks for that overview bill. We're glad to have you help it out, Naffy.

spk_0 Given your experience working with with ASTM, we wanted to talk to you about and you hinted at these new part 22 light sport aircraft.

spk_0 Yes, regulations. A big thing mosaic did as we talked about in previous segments was to eliminate the definition of light sport aircraft.

spk_0 That's correct. Yeah. In 1.1. Now what is a light sport aircraft is very different than the concept of what a light sport pilot can operate.

spk_0 These are kind of two different schools of thought they don't necessarily marry up directly anymore or they won't because they be the aircraft side separator.

spk_0 Yep, so the aircraft certification comes into effect in late July of 2026. And so that's another part of this rule we have to remember we keep hearing.

spk_0 Oh, October 22nds the effective date for mosaic and it is for the pilots.

spk_0 Yeah, for the definition of what's a light sport aircraft and what it's going to take to get an aircraft certificate as such.

spk_0 Right. And the mosaic rule was announced at air venture 2025.

spk_0 July 24th was Sam Graves and Sean Duffy and Chris Ruschaloo and Jack Pelton, which is awesome.

spk_0 I got to be in the crowd and see it too. So that was amazing. And then, you know, this guy in the federal register.

spk_0 It's about 582 in the pages of preamble. But one of the things I like for people to know is even though a federal register of mosaic is really large.

spk_0 What is amazing is that the FAA took all of the comments and they explained why they thought those comments didn't work for the rule or why they are going to change them for the rule.

spk_0 And so by addressing them, you can read and get to know a little bit about why the FAA thinks this sort of changes the way they wanted to do it.

spk_0 It's kind of an inside into our government working. I really like that. So some mosaic changes, not all.

spk_0 So we're going to talk a little bit about the light sport aircraft definition was removed just like you said part 1.1 and that created a change on the light sport category was added and we're going to talk about this will this specifically.

spk_0 But noise regulation was added. However, there was a relatively large pushback from the industry.

spk_0 And so the rule is a voluntary compliance only right now. We all know how that's going to go, but assuming at least starting out.

spk_0 I mean, the truth of the matter is that most light sport aircraft today are not nearly as noisy as you know like a SESA 182 quite frankly.

spk_0 But if or other aircraft like that, but trying to force a 182 or something to become noise compliance going to be a difficult propositions.

spk_0 The FAA is working towards mandating or regulatory processes for noise, but in this first go around they're making it voluntary.

spk_0 So hopefully we can come up with some better regulation later that will help everyone. Then the FAA except standards for me STM.

spk_0 And that's what I'm going to talk mostly about here is how we get to these standards. One of the little things that I put in here is that the and we're going to talk more about this, but the FAA is accepting a consensus standard from the STM group on the new part 22 aircraft that are being built.

spk_0 So if an aircraft does not have an acceptance standard consensus standard accepted by the FAA they're not going to reject it, but they don't accept it.

spk_0 Then that aircraft would not be able to be an aircraft.

spk_0 At least for the for the United States government could maybe be done somewhere else, but it'd be unlikely because the other civil aviation authorities are going to want to do it either.

spk_0 So there is a rush we are all quite in a tizzy trying to get all of the regulation, all of the standards up to the FAA, which means that we have to have a mount by April of 2026 because they have to review them and vet them and they're going to come back with things that they either will accept or will not want.

spk_0 And then we're going to send them back through the process and I'll show that at the end here.

spk_0 This is something important to understand that we realize that we need to get these consensus standards in place and we are on a time crunch to get them done.

spk_0 The part 22 lights for pedagogy aircraft and this presentation was airplane centric.

spk_0 So I'm not talking specifically about weight shift control or gyro planes, vertical takeoff and lift and helicopters because there are other types of regulations that need to be adjusted for that.

spk_0 It's hard to capture it all week and there's a lot that simply isn't developed yet like you hinted at those simplified flight controls. What does that mean? What's that going to look like? We don't know.

spk_0 I have this example in the screen here of the eluda MK3 speeder, which is a prototype and there's others, right? The joebie and the art or and I mean there are there are a lot of different types of vertical takeoff and landing.

spk_0 How they work and what they're going to do with them. They're going to operate the like I talked earlier about, for example, there's not a designated pilot examiner that knows how to give a check ride in one of these.

spk_0 The manufacturers are going to have to create instructors that are going to teach people how to fly them and what are the regulations for that.

spk_0 There's still a fair amount of information that I don't know. There are a lot of other people in this industry portion that are really working hard at this.

spk_0 It's a very exciting and it's a big area. It's becoming it's really popular. It's exciting to see what's happening here.

spk_0 So we'll move on here. So the previous light sport aircraft definition or the current one, I should say until October 22nd, which is the new effective date for sport pilots.

spk_0 The previous light sport aircraft definition part 1.1 stated maximum pickoff weight, 1,000, 320 pounds to seek max, you know, style speed 45, not clean, cruise or maximum speed and flight, 120 knots, fixed landing gear, fixed picture, ground adjustable prop single engine.

spk_0 I'm pressurized cabin, you know, bearworthiness, can be flown at night and all of the lights for aircrafts that are built of light night can still do that.

spk_0 And then moving forward, they'll still be able to do that. We also have what are called technically advanced aircraft.

spk_0 There are a number of lights for it's like the RV 12 that I fly that has, you know, advanced avionics package with auto pilot that allows you to do instrument training, you get an instrument certificate in it.

spk_0 That will still be a possibility going forward, but this is the current definition that is going to be removed.

spk_0 And then as of July 24, 2026, that's the date of the change.

spk_0 So the new far port art 22 lights for categories, we have a we have what are called part 23 aircraft. So those are.

spk_0 Cessnas and PIPers and things like that, seris, etc. There's now a new part 22 that's going to be added and that will be effective July 22 July 24.

spk_0 And even reading this part of the final rule was pretty interesting how the FAA decided to place it as part 22, how they made the decision on the number.

spk_0 It's right.

spk_0 It's into 20 like in like how it fit in the whole framework of the overall picture. So like the fact that this part 22 is not like, oh, there's a gap in the numbers here. This works.

spk_0 That was a very deliberate choice to put there.

spk_0 It was so you read that in the preamble right.

spk_0 Yeah, yeah, that's why I mean, so there were some arguments from some people that were saying, well, we don't want it to be called part 22 and I can't remember what the arguments were, but they described why they felt that this is a perfect place for it fit into the regulations between 21 and 23.

spk_0 I mean, obviously the number of course, but this was a sort of not meant to be, but it was meant to be for lights were aircraft in part 22. And so reading the preamble and why the FAA made this decision.

spk_0 I think these kinds of things are great. Now again, not everybody's going to agree. I understand that.

spk_0 But I think it's it's really helpful to be able to read through this and see what the thinking was by the different people that are working on these kinds of regulations.

spk_0 So yeah, these preambles are fascinating. Yeah, they are fascinating.

spk_0 They're they're long, but it's worth it. You know, like you said, you get to see how the public's voice is incorporated into these rules and the logic of it all.

spk_0 So it's long like you said, but you know, if you read it in portions, it is really, I mean, kind of a almost a fast read by time you get through.

spk_0 Yeah, all of it. It's all a double space in that. So when we're saying it's, I mean, 700 some odd pages is still a lot.

spk_0 Well, right, right. It's actually yes. Yeah, it's also, yeah, it's two columns. Right.

spk_0 Yeah, but it's not like you're reading, you know, 700 pages of newspaper print or something. Right, right.

spk_0 Well, it's absolutely fascinating to see. And you can read all about this. Yeah, rationale on something is what we would perceive, you know, from the outside, perceive as something as simple as well.

spk_0 They just stuck in part 22. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and again, there are certain sections like ice skipped over noise and quite frankly.

spk_0 Well, I looked it up the other day because there was a question about noise, but for the most part, I was like, no, I mean, it's important. I can promise you there are people looking at noise issues and all that kind of thing.

spk_0 And so all of the preamble information about noise was really important for that group, but not for me. So I was able to skip certain sections. But yeah.

spk_0 I think that we sometimes take for granted the work that are, you know, United States government and administration is doing it. Yes, I know there's, you know, always things that slow things down and frustrations or the things.

spk_0 I'm not trying to say, you know, the FAs perfect by any means. But being able to look through this and get this type of regulation that helps us and be able to see how it's done.

spk_0 I think it was just great. And I really do think of kudos and hats off to the FAA for getting this done. So obviously the big thing that came out of this. This was actually yelled out at the meeting when Sean, when Sean Duffy was there.

spk_0 Erwin, what was the stall speed and the number they threw out was 61 knots. Now Sean didn't know he doesn't know about the regulations.

spk_0 But that's different than the sport pilot. So I know you guys have talked about it a little bit. But what this is saying is that any new part 22 aircraft that are built can have a maximum stall speed of 61 knots calibrated air speed in the landing configuration, VSO, so dirty.

spk_0 So this means your stall, your clean stalls could be greater than that. It could be 65 knots or even higher. And that's a, that's a great thing because this means that this aircraft could be built in a way that would allow it to, you know, fly faster and have more weight and things like that.

spk_0 So that was the first thing that was thrown out there. Now I just want to say this part different that sport pilots are now like we talked about in the beginning.

spk_0 The FAA separated the division of a, the regulations for a sport pilot and the regulations for an aircraft. So now the sport pilot is limited by performance limitation because, by the way, I'll mention this in another slide.

spk_0 There is no part 1.1 lights work aircraft definition for them to fly is now lights for category, which is what these airplanes will be in. So a sport pilot can only fly an aircraft that has a stall speed clean of 59 knots.

spk_0 So that means if somebody builds a part 22 light sport airplane, whose stall speed is greater than 59 knots, then a sport pilot would not be able to fly a private pilot would be able to fly it.

spk_0 Yes, I think that that's an interesting distinction. Yeah, with one being based on VSO and one being based on VS one. And that's all on the preamble and that discussion too. And that was interesting in it in itself. But just to understand, you know, as pilots and operators out there, that difference does exist. And they are referencing different stall speeds.

spk_0 Right. Well, again, I think it was so when I talked to we talked to the FAA guy who is at our meeting again, what they really wanted to do is they wanted to get away from tying a sport pilot to a specific aircraft. So that was part of the problem.

spk_0 So they're going to take away the definition, right. So now we're creating these new part 22 light sport category airplanes. But a number of people who were looking at the stall speeds and and low factors and weight limits and all that for a new part 22 aircraft said, well, if this airplane can fly faster and carry more weight and things like that.

spk_0 What do we do about sport pilots and the FAA said look, there's safety continuum or sport pilots and light sport aircraft shows that sport pilots are safer than general aviation. Now not by a lot, but they are a tiny bit safer.

spk_0 And we want to continue that safety continuum by keeping that safety continuum so that sport pilots are safer shows that they can have these privileges to be able to fly faster airplanes.

spk_0 But they can't be flying something that you know, it's clean stall speed is 75 knots, for example, because that airplane is going to be perhaps a little bit harder to control than a than one that's a little bit slower.

spk_0 So by limiting the sport pilot to the 59 knots clean, it helps keep that safety continuum for sport pilots. So yeah, it's really interesting. And the preamble again describes all of this and why they what they're thinking was so maximum weight limit for a new part 22 airplanes, it'll be 3000 pounds.

spk_0 Maximum airspeed. So this is one that's still being kind of looked at.

spk_0 We don't know what they mean by maximum airspeed, whether they mean maximum cruise speed or maximum never exceed speed.

spk_0 And so I believe the this question is being sent back by a and a OPA and others to try to determine what specifically are we talking about with 250 knots here.

spk_0 So we all think it's kind of cruise speed is what they're talking about. So it's just trying to define this a little bit better, but that's still fast for most of these types of airplanes maximum seats of four.

spk_0 So again, this is another kind of a mentally split issue, if you will, for example, a sport pilot could fly a aircraft and airplane that has four seats.

spk_0 But again, the stall speed plane has to be 59 knots. So for example, a system 172, which has four seats. The new part 22 airplanes will also have four seats.

spk_0 Now a sport pilot can only take one passenger. So that's their limitation and is always been their limitation and stays as is.

spk_0 But for these part 22 lights for airplanes, they could have four seats and now a private pilot could fly in one of these part 22 lights for airplanes and carry three passengers and themselves.

spk_0 Options that were included now, of course, are retractable landing gear, adjustable propellers, so like constant speed prop multi engines part of this, quite frankly, is the drawing of the for the having aircraft, the vertical pick off and landing that have like multi engines, like have eight engines on them.

spk_0 So you can't really limit the multi engine thing that, you know, if you're going to use those types of aircraft, but having twin engine light sport aircraft is a big plus. I know Lockwood, the lockwoods got his air cams and things that have that electric engines.

spk_0 Oh, yeah, as you can say, you know, and the other thing to keep in mind here, like you said, these are airplane specific. So with those things like those four seats airplanes will be allowed to have that, but that's the only one any other type of light sport aircraft,

spk_0 certificate here under part 22 will be or that that light sport pilots will be able to operate rather are still limited to seats.

spk_0 Yeah, well, and right, it's I am on the I'm the task group leader for weight shift control. I've flown trikes of weight shift control.

spk_0 So for example, we are creating we are updating the current light sport aircraft weight shift control standard to do a number other things. However, it's tall speed is still going to stay at 45 knots and it will not have a three or four seat weight shift control, although there's been some request for that.

spk_0 Definitely or not, but I'm so most of those like powered parachute, weight shift control gyro planes, helicopters and the vertical takeoff landing are going to be two seats only with the stall speeds being 45 knots, although I don't know for the vertical takeoff and land is a different animal.

spk_0 But yes, that's exactly right. This is airplane centric electric engines. This has been you know a huge party part of the push for this is that we have a number of airplanes out there.

spk_0 They're starting to run electric engines and want to be able to take advantage of that and turbine engines. And this is another factor that there's no reason why you couldn't have a turbine engine on a light sport aircraft as long as you would be able to you know control it and keep it within the 250 knots and things like that. So actually at air venture. I think J and V had the a turbine style J and V VL three light sport out there that they were advertising as part 23 right now though.

spk_0 One of the things that's occurring of course is that this means that people using their drivers license can fly. You know there 172 or something like that.

spk_0 And I've had people already comment other CFI say oh my goodness, this is a terrible thing because now people are going to fly up and you know follow this guy because they're not getting a medical.

spk_0 And that's not true and it's the same argument that was brought up product when the 2004 light sport rule came into play. In fact, it will be safer because if somebody really wants to let their medical laps and or and then let there and they don't want to use basic med and they only want to use their drivers license.

spk_0 Then they have to fly a sport pilot with limitations. I either can't fly at night. They can't go above 10,000 feet. They can only take one passenger. Oh, they're actually going to be safer than people that are not you know they have a third class medical and they're.

spk_0 And yes, be database shows people.

spk_0 And those don't even people even in medical certificate holders. If you're going to cheat the system, you're going to cheat the system.

spk_0 That's right. There's always bad actors and and people with third class medicals have issues and crash. And in fact, it's there's the FAA said this that the lights. There's never been a sport pilot sport pilot fatalities in a light sport aircraft.

spk_0 There have been two private pilot fatalities in lights for aircraft that was it's. All right, the maintenance changes real quick. So what they kept the lights for repairments to ticket, which was great.

spk_0 What they added is that now lights for repair mechanic like myself can work on lights for category aircraft. This would be same class and category. So now they're airplane single engine land. I can't work on a helicopter for example or C plane.

spk_0 But the other thing they added is I can work on any experimental amateur bill that's in category class. I'm not interested in doing that. But people that are lights for repairment mechanics are very excited about this is now they can start working into a condition inspection on experimental amateur bill.

spk_0 But more exciting was this light sport repairment inspection. So the lights for repair mechanic certificate is a 16 day course that you go to the lights for repairment inspection allows you to work on your own experimental amateur bill.

spk_0 And the reason why this got applause is that currently the way it exists. If you buy an experimental amateur bill airplane, the only way you can get a condition inspection is either through an AMP or the builder.

spk_0 Now with the new rule, if you go to a 16 hour course, basically a two day course, you can do your own condition inspection on it. So a lot of the experimental amateur group is very excited about that.

spk_0 Not covered with noise reduction, some fly flight controls and helicopters. All right. So let me talk about a stm and the consensus standards.

spk_0 So again, the new part 22 aircraft that are coming out the FAA has said that we will accept the standards of the STM.

spk_0 I want to point out that there are a number of standards that are used for all different types of things, including aircraft.

spk_0 There is a committee called the F40, which works with the part 23 certification. And they use standards like SAE, radio technical commission of aeronautics, joint aviation requirements.

spk_0 So there's all of these different types of standards. We're not the only one out there, but it's one that's been around a long time as a long history.

spk_0 And you'll see a stm used for like computers and for, you know, how to do lawn care. I mean, they're all over everything. Also, the standards that get accepted by the FAA usually will get accepted by the other civil aviation authorities.

spk_0 For example, Transport Canada has a bilateral agreement with the FAA. So if the AFA accepts our standards, then more than likely the Transport Canada group will accept it.

spk_0 I also, of course, wants to see what we're doing in Brazil. And then there's others in New Zealand and Australia. So the STM F37 committee. So there's a number numbered committees from one to, I think, how many there are in there like 300.

spk_0 But again, committees for different kinds of things. So the idea is to develop these consensus standards that you're design and performance and all of this.

spk_0 We in the STM committees are strongly supporting and really pushing safety and innovation. It's a little bit of a misnomer, I suppose, to say that, you know, manufacturers just want to get something out that's going to allow them to sell to the market.

spk_0 So having all of the GWIS wheels and whistles and bangs and things like that is great. But we also are tasked our current chairman, Ryan Johnson, the vice president of Vans has said over and over when he originally talked to the FAA, lethario, lethario, I think was his name, was the administrator some years ago.

spk_0 He said, we want safer airplanes and we want to consist of standards to be safer than the current standards that we have even at a part 23 level.

spk_0 So we are very focused on that. That's why I want to emphasize that that whatever new aircraft come out, safety is one of the things that we're always talking about.

spk_0 Now, this is our current timeframe that for accepting the standards, I'm not going to go into this too much. But basically, we have, we have to get, we're going to vote, I'll show the process here.

spk_0 We're going to vote on each of these standards. They have to go through committees to a subcommittee and a full committee. And then they're going to go to the FAA and then the FAA is going to look at them and come back and forth. Now we have FAA in our committees.

spk_0 So they're telling us, no, we agree or maybe you're whatever, but there'll be some point where they'll take the standard, put it through the FAA and then they'll check it back to us and they'll either reject some items, sub some items, and then we'll go through them, we'll be done.

spk_0 But that means that basically we have until about April to submit them to the FAA before we get to July 24.

spk_0 Committee members are manufacturers like heart souls there and we have a dinin is represented in garments there. We have bands is there, ran is there a lot of different manufacturing companies,

spk_0 pilots like myself, maintenance professionals like myself, buying a curl carpenter from rainbow aviation, and then we have regulators, government, the FAAs on there. We have usually a knack is on there with the Brazilian people, Miyasa.

spk_0 So we have people from all over the world and we do these by Zoom meetings and typically it's like one meeting a week and multiple task group meetings.

spk_0 I'll academia general interest international for sure general interest in you and this is my little pitch for anybody who's looking at this podcast Sarah.

spk_0 Please join us. We need the input. We want the input. You're welcome to you know contact me or just go to a stm and find out about it.

spk_0 You will have what's called a voting interest so the public is entirely welcome to any of the meetings that we have is nothing secret about it. We have Google drives that have all of our information.

spk_0 However, you cannot vote unless you're a member of a stm and I think the default membership is like $120 subscription and then you can have producer membership and all that kind of stuff doesn't it doesn't change your vote.

spk_0 But voting members can vote on the ballots of the standards. If you're not a voting member, you can have input, but if you can't vote, then I mean it won't count for the ballot. Any questions about this so far Sarah?

spk_0 No, this looks great. I really appreciate you sharing how people could get involved in a stm because I didn't know that that was, you know, kind of a fairly public process.

spk_0 I thought that was you know being ignorant. I was kind of like that sounds like it's probably like engineers and everybody behind closed doors figuring out what works. I didn't realize it was so.

spk_0 It is engineers and they may they may be in their office with closed doors because engineers don't want to come out and talk to people.

spk_0 I'm very do want to get out there. Yeah, but no, it's.

spk_0 And I thought that too, but it is entirely open to the public like the Google Drive and all of the documentation that we're writing and things like that.

spk_0 You won't have edit acts of obviously unless you're a voting member. But yeah, and so it's totally open for the public to look at and make comments about because and again, there's sometimes there is public interest for certain areas.

spk_0 For example, which of control we have a number of people that are interested, but they don't want to be voting members. They just want to give their input and it's very good input.

spk_0 But they're not necessarily that bastard. I'm changing it or whatever. Now the manufacturers are and the engineers are and people like myself. And you know, I think one of the areas that I believe is most lacking for stm is CFI instructors.

spk_0 So that's why Samantha got involved in myself as well because when it comes to the pilot operating handbook and the flight supplements and teaching and training.

spk_0 There's not as greater representation in the groups. And then so when we get into a subject, for example, I am the task group lead of IFR and I am see, which is the idea of having part 22 aircraft that are instrument flight rules into I am see.

spk_0 So we'll have lots of discussions about heated pito tubes and autopilot and Sam and I will bring up why we think it's important to have a certain kind of training.

spk_0 Why the POH might need to specify something. So a lot of that interest is a little bit missing. It's usually again, it's it's a lot of manufacturers and designers and engineers and things like that.

spk_0 So the subcommittees are broken up until what's called the scoping says the scoping of all of the light sport.

spk_0 The functional content is the majority of the task groups and this is going to be power plant propulsion, which is going to have electric reciprocating engines, turbine engines, continued operation.

spk_0 We have maintenance, so we're putting some maintenance balance through weight shift control, power parachute, all of these task groups are working on either existing standards or new standards for the new part 22 rule.

spk_0 I think there's like 44 different task groups and I'm the task group lead of IFR and I am see in weight shift control.

spk_0 And then aircraft integration is essentially what that's going to be is there will be a integration standard that's written that's sort of like a recipe, if you will, that if a manufacturer accepts that integration standard, then all of the things that are behind it like power plant and propulsion and occupant safety and continued operational safety will all be part of that integration.

spk_0 They're accepting all of those standards and what we're hoping and the FAA is agreed to, we're all excited about this, is that all the FAA will have to do is look at the aircraft integration standards and say, yep, this covers everything that we think will be safe for the public and they'll accept that consensus.

spk_0 So that's what our plan of action is.

spk_0 The process, if you will, is we can either build on existing standards or we can create a new standard, we do have like templates that show how the standard has to be certain certain way it has to be written the meetings that almost all of them are by zoom.

spk_0 And we do have a in place meeting four times a year, so people can attend that if they want to the next meeting is going to be in Atlanta in October.

spk_0 And so that's open to the public, but in house meetings are good because they have to have in house and you have to have a quorum and all that kind of thing.

spk_0 We write the standards report to existing standards.

spk_0 We ballot to the subcommittee, so usually all these subcommittee task groups like the IFR I'm see and then we ballot to that subcommittee, then it comes back and if there are any negatives, they must be what's called disposition, which means that you can't the ballot doesn't pass.

spk_0 So this is all this is what consensus means, there has to be a consensus and agreement to whatever the standard is.

spk_0 So if the if the standard comes back with a negative, somebody says, I don't like this or I want this change or whatever, then it comes back to the subcommittee and then we address it now.

spk_0 The way to address it is either we rewrite the standard and then send out a revote on that standard. That's one way to do it or we can do is called disposition.

spk_0 We can either talk to the person involved and see what the why they put the negative end sometimes they'll withdraw if we say, well, we'll fix this in the next ballot or this is why it's like that.

spk_0 Or if we find it was called non persuasive, meaning that the majority of the committee doesn't think it's an issue and they don't want to deal with that.

spk_0 So then the consensus is we vote against that negative and then that's where the standard goes forward. So this is how we kind of go through the process.

spk_0 I think that was it as far as how the process worked.

spk_0 So, it's an amazing amount of detail. And so, you know, I think just for the average flight instructor, nothing in our training or flight instructor education talks about this.

spk_0 You know, when we just hear things like, oh, you know, there's the light sport, their plane standard, we kind of, you know, okay, they exist. I don't think anybody thinks that deep on how they got there and realize it is this detailed.

spk_0 So here's the thing. So you all as as commercial certified flight instructors, you know, very well about, you know, the rules for if as it is an airplane airworthy with the air place airworthiness certificate is the the transponder check all of that kind of stuff, right.

spk_0 And we know all that, but you never think about a standard type-certificated aircraft. How did that system once have you to come about?

spk_0 And so it was all done between the government and the manufacturer. I use the example of the it took something like 20 years for that standard types of certificate aircraft to get built by doing this is consensus standard.

spk_0 It's a much quicker process. However, we're not short changing anything because if somebody says I think safety is important, then that has to be agreed upon in the standard or voted non negative all that kind of thing.

spk_0 Right. So yeah, this is some of the background information. And again, I would encourage people to join and check it out. And I think that'd be interested to see what the new part 22 aircraft is going to look like.

spk_0 Yeah, that's fascinating. I'm glad you shared that with us because I didn't have a clue. And so I would imagine most of our listeners aren't familiar with this either as day to day flight instructors. This is kind of.

spk_0 I don't want to say off in the weeds, but certainly outside, you know, of our periphery vision.

spk_0 Yeah, it's just it's like it says so much what we do for operating as pilots of the certificate to their it's not.

spk_0 Yeah, and how that even got there in the first place is.

spk_0 Well, and I do a presentation on the history of light sport and sport pilot, which sort of explains how we got to where we are today.

spk_0 But again, most people don't know this, but the original lights for aircraft are all those are all built by consensus standard.

spk_0 So the definition and all of that was by consensus because when the yeah, when the first rule came out, the manufacturers of light sport back then what we call that ultra lights a quick solar, etc.

spk_0 said, you know, we don't want to go through a part 23 certification as standard types of the kid.

spk_0 So the FAA said, OK, well, let's use the STM standard model. So that's what they started doing.

spk_0 And all lights for their craft are STM consists of standard build currently.

spk_0 And so moving forward, they were standard, they were built to a standard. It wasn't a, you know, defined part.

spk_0 You know, obviously we're just now getting to that with part 22, but it had never really occurred to me what the genesis of those standards was and how involved and in detail of a process and system that that is.

spk_0 Well, and just, you know, like I said before in the certain there, this is just an example of consensus standards. I mean, there are so many standard groups out there.

spk_0 And if you were to look at this so if you join a STM, you can join us called the 44 committee. That's that's certified airplanes. So again, says the one so you do or whatever, turkey 180.

spk_0 And in there, they are they are using like the radio technical commission for not extended for radios.

spk_0 So we've been using consensus standards for other airplanes for a long time.

spk_0 But really, this is where the FAA is moving forward with this idea of consensus standards for newer aircraft so that we can have aircraft come out to market that would be useful for the public and, you know, to peak with the other aircraft of course.

spk_0 But yeah, be able to get a lot, a lot more aircraft out there that the public can use and play around and have fun with.

spk_0 But I mean, it's going to be great. We're looking at a really changing in the history with aviation, I think.

spk_0 All right. Well, Bill, thank you so much for taking the time and all you do to support Daffy and our interests in this process and taking the time to share this information with our members.

spk_0 Absolutely. My pleasure. And of course, if you have any questions or anything like that, feel free to email me or call me or whatever.

spk_0 All right. Fabulous. Thank you so much, Bill. Thanks, Sarah. Bye bye.

spk_0 Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Naffy's more right rudder podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe.

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spk_0 You

Introducing Part 22 Aircraft Certification via MOSAIC w/ Bill Snodgrass

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