Technology
Internet as a Human Right: Christopher Mitchell on Community Networks
In this episode, Christopher Mitchell from the Institute for Local Self-Reliance discusses the importance of community control over broadband access and the challenges posed by telecom monopolies. He ...
Internet as a Human Right: Christopher Mitchell on Community Networks
Technology •
0:00 / 0:00
Interactive Transcript
spk_0
We're not saving taxpayer dollars.
spk_0
We have decided to pay more taxpayer dollars in the future for people's increased medical
spk_0
costs.
spk_0
For their inefficient systems that rely on them having to go across town on a bus, wait
spk_0
in the line and then talk to a human being face to face rather than solving the problem
spk_0
online at a much lower cost to taxpayers.
spk_0
It's disastrous.
spk_0
Telecom monopolies like Comcast or AT&T control how most Americans connect to the
spk_0
Internet.
spk_0
I'm sure that's scary enough to much of our audience, but it's worth pausing to think
spk_0
about what exactly that means.
spk_0
For one thing, I can't make this anti-monopoly podcast without accessing the Internet.
spk_0
The gatekeeper between me and the tools I need, a monopoly.
spk_0
By controlling our access to the Internet, these monopolies have a hand in how millions
spk_0
of people communicate, entertain themselves, work, and even access healthcare.
spk_0
The problem is so huge and so complicated, it's easy enough to just throw up your hands
spk_0
and say it is what it is.
spk_0
There are people who refuse to do that, though, and ILSR's Christopher Mitchell is one of
spk_0
them.
spk_0
He's leading a team to dream up and advocate for telecom alternatives, with a community
spk_0
focus.
spk_0
Through ILSR's Community Broadband Networks Initiative, Christopher and his comrades
spk_0
are working tirelessly to return broadband access to community control, searching for
spk_0
ways to make Internet access more accessible, affordable, reliable, and human centered.
spk_0
Christopher is today's guest, and we covered a lot in our half-hour together.
spk_0
Listen on for Christopher's thoughts on the importance of broadband access, the challenges
spk_0
of funding his work in today's political climate, and his remembrances of his friend,
spk_0
ILSR's co-founder, David Morris.
spk_0
Thank you for using a bit of your Internet access to listen to our show.
spk_0
Christopher Mitchell, thank you so much for joining us on Building Local Power.
spk_0
Thank you, I'm excited to be back on the show.
spk_0
I want to start with a little bit of a story, and it's going to end in a question.
spk_0
So bear with me.
spk_0
I recently moved, I bought a house, which means it's time to select an Internet provider.
spk_0
In the area I moved to, it was between AT&T and Spectrum.
spk_0
I decided AT&T basically on a coin flip.
spk_0
As part of the installation process, they sent what they called something like a customer
spk_0
service specialist to my house.
spk_0
Allegedly to answer any questions I have about my new AT&T Internet service,
spk_0
but it becomes very clear once this guy arrives that he's trying to give me
spk_0
to sign up for AT&T cell phone service as well.
spk_0
And he's got the big pitch.
spk_0
He makes the theatrical production of calling his manager to get the best rate for us.
spk_0
And weirdly, he does save us a lot of money.
spk_0
And so I end up saving $80 or $100 a month on this.
spk_0
So we do sign up and he drives off to the AT&T store,
spk_0
gets the phone, brings it back to our house and sits on the couch and sets up the phone
spk_0
while we eat dinner.
spk_0
But now I'm pretty sure my cell phone service is worse.
spk_0
And I don't think my Internet is nearly as fast as they promised it would be.
spk_0
Given your perch as a broadband access activist and an anti-monopolis,
spk_0
what's wrong with that story?
spk_0
Well, it's interesting because we have a beloved local provider here in Minneapolis.
spk_0
I'm in St. Paul and they've been expanding a little bit.
spk_0
And this is really relevant because they've just decided to sell out to T-Mobile.
spk_0
It looks like.
spk_0
And I've been going through Reddit.
spk_0
And it's a reminder of how great local service can be.
spk_0
So USI is this company and you just look on Reddit if you want to search for USI,
spk_0
Minneapolis and look at what people are writing.
spk_0
And people have all these amazing stories about how USI would solve their problems immediately,
spk_0
how it was great service.
spk_0
And then you look at people's reaction to becoming a T-Mobile customer
spk_0
and they have all these horror stories to share of waiting in line forever.
spk_0
Because if you're a massive corporation that primarily extracts wealth through monopoly,
spk_0
it means that you don't care how long Danny waits on the phone.
spk_0
In fact, the longer you wait, the better for them.
spk_0
Because it's fewer resources that they're spending.
spk_0
The more people hang up and just say, I guess I'll just deal with it.
spk_0
Whereas a local company, almost always local companies are coming in and competing
spk_0
because they're the competitor, right?
spk_0
There's a market where AT&T or Charter is there already.
spk_0
The local company is a competitor.
spk_0
So they know they have to provide high quality service, reasonable pricing.
spk_0
And they also know that they are rooted in the community.
spk_0
And so if they treat people poorly, those people will react to them when they see them.
spk_0
And so there's a whole bunch of incentives for why local is better.
spk_0
But we have structured our telecom system to make it very hard for local services.
spk_0
All the incentives are for private companies to centralize.
spk_0
And a lot of them that resist it eventually will succumb over time to centralization, unfortunately.
spk_0
That idea of actual competition making service better.
spk_0
Like in theory, that's how capitalism is supposed to work.
spk_0
But as these telecom and op-least take over, we see less and less of that.
spk_0
In capitalism, I tend to think of markets.
spk_0
And we want markets to have choices so that there's a restraint on a tendency to do things poorly.
spk_0
And an incentive to be innovative and that sort of a thing.
spk_0
And it's very clear that our version of capitalism is not resulting in markets that are structured well
spk_0
for outcomes that would be good for you and me.
spk_0
Now in telecom, it's difficult because if you're a bakery,
spk_0
we could have 10 bakeries within two miles of a person in a city.
spk_0
It's unlikely that we're going to have 10 telecommunications companies because of the high cost to build it.
spk_0
It's similar to electrical systems as I'm sure you've discussed with folks on the energy team.
spk_0
And so it's more difficult than to figure it out.
spk_0
And that's why we focus on public ownership.
spk_0
Because if we cannot have robust private sector competition,
spk_0
then we need structures that will be responsive to our needs.
spk_0
And that tends to be local government or some form of cooperative arrangement,
spk_0
which is much more common in rural areas for utilities than it is in urban areas.
spk_0
That all leads me directly to my next question.
spk_0
So given all of this, asking for a friend, say a person is frustrated
spk_0
with the between Iraq and the hard place of the AT&T versus spectrum choice.
spk_0
But is interested in the idea of this public ownership or an alternative or telecom company
spk_0
that is interested in my experience as a customer.
spk_0
What do I do? What should a person do to get the ball rolling?
spk_0
This is where you should go back and just insert Stacy's answer to a previous question
spk_0
about talking to your neighbors and organizing locally because it's the exact same response
spk_0
that I would have. In a few cases, we know that there's a place in Michigan where a person
spk_0
was fed up with Comcast and they built a network for their neighbors and themselves.
spk_0
It's very rare. It's very difficult to do that.
spk_0
And this is something where the internet seems mysterious.
spk_0
So I like to use an analogy of roads.
spk_0
Imagine if you lived in an area where there are no paved roads.
spk_0
Well, you're probably not going to try to figure out how to build a construction company
spk_0
to pave it yourselves. You're going to demand your elected leaders meet your needs.
spk_0
And so the first thing is make sure your electives are hearing from you
spk_0
because they hear every day from the lobbyists of the cable and telephone monopolies
spk_0
that everything's great. They need to hear that there's problems.
spk_0
But then you really do need to talk to neighbors.
spk_0
Local leaders, you want to put together a group of people that
spk_0
has some broad representation to pressure your elected local leaders at the City Council to look
spk_0
into options. And I'll say that one of the things that some people will say back in response is,
spk_0
I don't even, I don't know if I want my local government to get involved with this.
spk_0
Well, one of the things that that we've seen is that even when local governments start to think
spk_0
about making an investment to build their own network, that the existing companies suddenly
spk_0
will invest more cut prices and do better. And so there's a phrase about the mouse that roared.
spk_0
And so it can be helpful to go in that direction even if you don't necessarily intend to end up there.
spk_0
One person writing one two-star review online is very different than an entire community beginning
spk_0
to organize and mobilize. A two-star review for like a local provider is a big deal. And they may
spk_0
actually just like, you know, reach out to you proactively to talk to you about it. Whereas,
spk_0
if you're AT&T or charter, you get two-star reviews all day long and you don't much care.
spk_0
So, yes, people need to be active. And that may mean starting talking to the neighbors,
spk_0
talking with local business owners and recognizing that there may need to be some public investments.
spk_0
There's a variety of ways that that could take. And we're not going to get into that because it could
spk_0
take all day. But cities don't just have one model to choose from. They actually have a variety of
spk_0
options where some would involve them offering services as the city. And others would be where they
spk_0
would just make investments to allow other private companies to try to make investments. And that can
spk_0
help in the short term, although I think in the long term, we're going to need some kind of regulation.
spk_0
And we're probably going to be another five or ten years before. I think we really start to sort
spk_0
that out. So you're going to be in pain for a little bit here, Danny, with the choices that you've
spk_0
made. But the way government structure things, you never had an option to make a good choice.
spk_0
So that is something that we need to change in the future. And you mentioned these different models.
spk_0
We don't have time to go into detail. But I imagine the community broadband team has resources
spk_0
that we can point people towards to explain the details on that stuff if they're interested.
spk_0
We do have some resources. I do feel like this is such a complicated and big subject, but there's
spk_0
still so many issues that we work on that I would love for people to say, hey, you've got great
spk_0
resources on this, but we need more resources on that. So people should check out community networks.org,
spk_0
which is where we really focus a lot of our effort, as well as isr.org for the resources we put up
spk_0
there. But on community networks.org, you'll find a lot of resources. And we're always interested in
spk_0
what would be helpful for folks that are working through this. Let's take a step back.
spk_0
Ever since I've known you, you've been this advocate working so hard to advance these issues,
spk_0
I have no idea how you got started or interested in this. So can you tell us what piqued your
spk_0
interest in community broadband and how did it become your career? Yeah, I piqued my interest as I
spk_0
wanted a job. So I was fortunate to grow up in a tech savvy family. My dad had actually gone
spk_0
back to school when I was young and he got a degree, got into computers. I was lucky enough to
spk_0
have a computer growing up. And so in the early 90s, I got on the internet earlier than most people.
spk_0
I then started doing websites and building stuff. So I was a server administrator, web designer,
spk_0
programmer, for a while. And I went to grad school, ultimately, I was really interested in public
spk_0
policy. And I was particularly interested in foreign policy when I started. But it became more
spk_0
interesting information policy. Like how do people make decisions based on the information that they
spk_0
have? And that then led to me being more interested in energy and utility policy. Oddly enough,
spk_0
I had an amazing advisor and she got me very interested in utility type stuff. And then as I'm
spk_0
getting ready to graduate grad school, this job opportunity opens at the Institute for Local
spk_0
Self Alliance. And I was like, this looks like a place that's very aligned with my values of
spk_0
wanting to have decision making at the local level of distrusting centralized hierarchies and
spk_0
things like that. And I started and I hated it. Because you know, like most of the listeners at
spk_0
that point, I didn't know what a C-Lec was. I didn't know what an I-Lec was. And I'm not going
spk_0
to tell you because it's not really worth a lot of people's time. But I didn't know how telecom
spk_0
worked. I knew a lot about networks and computers. And it was really hard. And David Morris,
spk_0
who is here, really helped me. And I got advice from that same advisor who is like, don't give up
spk_0
you know, like stick it out, learn about this stuff. I found some great mentors. And then I found
spk_0
that this was a space that was really wide open. And you could do whatever you wanted because there
spk_0
were so few people working in public interest, internet access type stuff. And so then we found
spk_0
some wonderful funders that have helped us to grow over the years. And we've had these great teams.
spk_0
And I guess the last thing I would say about that is we would not be here today if not for Lisa
spk_0
Gonzalez, who was one of the first people that we hired to work with me on this program. And
spk_0
she and I built it up to what it was, along with several other people who are in and out along the
spk_0
way, some of whom continue to work with us from time to time. And we have great relationships with
spk_0
people make a difference. And working with Lisa was just really terrific. And taught me a lot
spk_0
about how to manage. And that's sort of a thing. And so, you know, I haven't looked back. It's
spk_0
exciting. And we're trying to figure out what the future will hold. But it's very clear that
spk_0
we're not about to solve this issue tomorrow. Right now, we're focused on public housing.
spk_0
There's a lot of challenges with low income people in cities where they cannot get high quality
spk_0
internet access. And that's the next frontier. And I would love to imagine what we're going to do
spk_0
after that. But this is such a high hill to climb that I don't know how long it's going to take.
spk_0
So now that we're a couple of months out from that decision, how have you seen community broadband
spk_0
folks responding? Has anyone been able to adapt to the new reality? And if so, what lessons can we learn
spk_0
from them continuing their work despite the kind of political adversity and the withdrawal of
spk_0
funding? It is very challenging. And so, like you said, the Digital Equity Act, it would have been
spk_0
the most significant investment we have on that issue that I was just raising regarding public
spk_0
housing. And it would have paid for a lot of people to get devices and training and paid for
spk_0
a lot of the work around that to make sure people could access the internet. So that was one
spk_0
aspect of it. That's been totally canceled, like you said, illegally. I think the courts will find.
spk_0
And at the same time, we're dealing with the access infrastructure investment. So there was
spk_0
42 and a half billion dollars set aside for building networks out to primarily rural folks. That has
spk_0
been significantly changed in ways that we're still trying to see what the results will be. But just
spk_0
so people are familiar, there's been a change both to the program to build networks. And then the
spk_0
program that was going to help people to be able to use networks who have not had that sort of
spk_0
background in training before the access program was changed. And the program for equity to help
spk_0
people in more commonly in urban areas to use the networks with devices and training that's been
spk_0
totally removed. It's been it's been a real challenge because what happened is that a lot of
spk_0
a lot of nonprofit organizations, some companies, a lot of states and cities were all expecting that
spk_0
they were going to have funds to do this important work. Important work not just to improve the lives
spk_0
of the low income folks who are primarily going to benefit, but for all of us, right? Because
spk_0
if we make sure that people who are receiving Medicare and Medicaid and this isn't just people
spk_0
who might be disabled, this could be veterans who are trying to reintegrate back into to life.
spk_0
This is all manner of people. If we're able to make sure that they can access the internet, it
spk_0
means their healthcare costs will be lower. It means that they will be better able to improve their
spk_0
lives and not require public assistance as much moving forward. That's all been gutted now. And so
spk_0
it means we're not saving taxpayer dollars. We have decided to pay more taxpayer dollars in the
spk_0
future for people's increased medical costs for their for inefficient systems that rely on them having
spk_0
to go across town on a bus, wait in the line and then talk to a human being face to face,
spk_0
rather than solving the problem online at a much lower cost to taxpayers. It's disastrous.
spk_0
And I'll just say that fortunately, the people that are trying to do this work, they're doing
spk_0
everything they can. They're like, I just suddenly thought of John McClain crawling over,
spk_0
broken glass to try to figure out what they can do with the few dollars they still have available.
spk_0
And we're hoping that the courts will reinstate this funding and that the states will be able to
spk_0
use it effectively. But we don't know what the future holds.
spk_0
These are all overlapping. It's not just like how fast I can watch a YouTube video. You recently
spk_0
contributed to reporting that discussed, for example, the connection between broadband access and
spk_0
reproductive care. So, you know, this idea of fast and reliable internet access really affects
spk_0
every corner of our lives. It's something for people to sit and reflect on, I think, especially
spk_0
those making these decisions about what to find. Yeah, no, I made a joke a few years ago that
spk_0
like talking about internet access sometimes feels like if you're running a city and someone wants
spk_0
to talk to you about concrete, you're like, what do I care about concrete? And it's like, oh, I don't
spk_0
know. It's just underpins everything that you do. But at the same time, it's not sexy.
spk_0
Let me throw out to you an interesting thing, which was that we heard about a survey in North
spk_0
Carolina back before the pandemic. And it asked about a range of questions, including the
spk_0
estate of the economy, education, what are the main problems that people wanted to see fixed?
spk_0
70 out of 100 counties had replied that internet access was like one of the top priorities.
spk_0
And we were kind of surprised by that because that's certainly not reflected in the priorities
spk_0
in the capital and Raleigh. As we tried to make sense of it, we saw that it was true in other
spk_0
places too because people recognize that they couldn't fix education or the economy without
spk_0
resolving internet access. Healthcare is only going to get worse for people who are losing their
spk_0
rural clinics and they don't have telehealth as a viable option. And so people recognize that this
spk_0
is something that we're not doing internet access for internet access sake, right? This isn't about
spk_0
Netflix. And sure, people will use Netflix once it's available, but it is fundamentally about
spk_0
education and economic opportunity, telehealth and things like that. And it's this idea of making
spk_0
it sexier, kind of bringing people onto the bandwagon or finding compelling ways to talk about this.
spk_0
It seems like this question of AI and large language models has really brought up questions about
spk_0
the capacity of our computing infrastructure. We've got the data center question, the use of water,
spk_0
environmental impacts. It's certainly driving some discourse. Do you think this AI discourse is a
spk_0
chance for the community broadband folks to find a new angle to maybe kind of sell this to people
spk_0
who are apathetic before? I think my answer is much like dumb and dumb, which is, you know,
spk_0
you think there's a one in a million chance? Say it, there's a chance. I think there is a slim chance
spk_0
to turn this the AI discussion in a way that could benefit the things that we would like to see
spk_0
in terms of internet access. I, you know, what we're focused on is how to improve internet access
spk_0
for people that are caught in a cycle of poverty. And the people who are talking about AI,
spk_0
they only want to talk about poverty. I mean, this is a broad brush. It doesn't apply to everyone,
spk_0
but a lot of the people who are doing it, they're trying to figure out how they can make a buck.
spk_0
There are people who make money off people in poverty as we've heard many times that it's
spk_0
expensive to be poor. But I don't, I don't think we're going to see a lot of opportunities to
spk_0
really improve people's lives. People might have heard about the fiber boom of the 1999 and 2000s
spk_0
and then the bust. You know, that was building fiber between cities. It wasn't building it out
spk_0
to low-income neighborhoods. And, and with the fiber boom that we're seeing around AI, it's similar,
spk_0
right? They're trying to figure out how to get the data centers. They're not going to be connecting
spk_0
public housing along the way most likely. So I'm afraid I'm a little bit down on that possibility.
spk_0
Sure. That makes sense. Let's talk wins. I mean, we just spent a couple of minutes really
spk_0
exploring some challenges and some perils of this work. But I'm sure throughout your long career,
spk_0
you've had some big wins. So can you tell us about a community broadband success story?
spk_0
Yeah, I was there before Chattanooga was building their network. I was brought in to see what they
spk_0
were doing and to help write about it. We wrote a case study about it. It's one of the best networks
spk_0
in the world. And this is not a win that I can take any credit for. It's great folks there that
spk_0
have really organized. I mean, Chattanooga is a real model of success and community decision-making
spk_0
in a lot of ways. And it still has a way to go with poverty and other issues as well. But they're
spk_0
using their network to try to address that. And it's been exciting to have been there before it
spk_0
was started and to see it being developed now, what it's come into, where this generated so many
spk_0
benefits for the community. We've been involved in documenting a number of really exciting
spk_0
of networks that have been built, many of which have delivered strong economic benefits for the
spk_0
community. But the things that I think about are the work we're doing now with tribal nations.
spk_0
For the past four or five years now, I've worked with Matt Rantanin and we've been doing the
spk_0
tribal broadband boot camps and seeing where here, again, a few individuals can really make a big
spk_0
difference where they've dived into the work. And they have taken every opportunity to educate
spk_0
themselves and we've met them along the way, helped introduce them to people. And now they've
spk_0
received money from the federal government in order to build that was created under the IIAA
spk_0
or the previous or several rounds of funding that were available to tribal nations.
spk_0
It's making a difference. It is building networks. Networks that would not have been built otherwise
spk_0
because they are so expensive to build in these rural areas that have had so little economic
spk_0
investment in them. And I'm excited to see what comes next as people then figure out how to
spk_0
take advantage of them for language preservation and preserving culture. And that's sort of a thing.
spk_0
So, you know, those are the things that come to mind first. But then I guess I would say one
spk_0
other thing, which is I have been around long enough to see some people where I knew them as they
spk_0
were coming out of school. And now they've gone on to do really cool things and watching what they're
spk_0
doing. And I learned from Sasha Minrath, who founded the Open Technology Initiative, which became the
spk_0
Open Technology Institute, a new America and has gone on to do important things. People are so
spk_0
core. And every chance we've had to bring in good people and try to nurture them and help inspire
spk_0
them, that's where it's exciting to watch what those people go on and do because it's people that
spk_0
make a difference, ultimately.
spk_0
Yeah, well, it's building local power right there, right? You organize, you focus on people,
spk_0
you figure out what you can do in your community and there's great power in that.
spk_0
Promising people don't always know it, right? Like when you see someone that has a lot of potential,
spk_0
they don't necessarily know it. And it can be really helpful to reinforce that for them and
spk_0
to help them to better see that they're special and that they can, you know, where they can really
spk_0
make a difference. So, people should reach out to each other and be sure to like, you know,
spk_0
just be good to each other and help encourage people along the way. We don't do that enough for
spk_0
each other. And again, all this talk of people power, of course, brings up the philosophy and
spk_0
work of David Morris, who has inspired so many of us here at ILSR. I know you worked really
spk_0
closely with David before he passed away. Can you talk about how his legacy is shaping what you do
spk_0
and how you think about it today? I'll try. David was so important to me. If I had something that
spk_0
was on my mind, I would go and talk to David. And if I didn't have anything that was on my mind,
spk_0
I would go and talk to David. I would pop into his office regularly. And I probably, I think I
spk_0
probably upset him more than anyone else with weird questions and refusing to agree with him on
spk_0
certain points that he thought were obvious. But he shaped the way I think and the way that I just
spk_0
recceive the world and in so many ways. And the thing that I think you've captured it well in
spk_0
talking to other people. But I want to share that the thing that I think you didn't understand
spk_0
what David is to joy that he brought to the work. He knew more about the ways in which humans have
spk_0
treated each other poorly than most people. And he didn't let it, he didn't let it stop him from
spk_0
trying to build a better world. You could talk to David about really challenging things and still
spk_0
keep it light and recognize the, you know, some of the humor or the dark humor in things, I think.
spk_0
And so David was great to work for. He was so challenging and it was, it was hard because he could
spk_0
point out with a single question, you know, what you didn't recognize, you didn't know about something.
spk_0
And and some, some people, I think, did not like that. Some of us found it really challenging and
spk_0
and really sort of thrived under that the pressure. But the thing was just that always that David
spk_0
had such a good heart and he worked so hard to use his gifts to make the world a better place.
spk_0
And and even though, you know, he, I think, was at times really frustrated, he would never stop.
spk_0
But he just did it with such joy and he was so great to work with that, you know, ultimately that's
spk_0
what I think about on the regular. It's really lovely and I think it's important to hear that for
spk_0
for many of us in, you know, a world like today's. Christopher Mitchell, thank you so much for joining us
spk_0
and sharing your reflections and telling us about your your amazing work.
spk_0
Thank you. I've been really enjoying the shows.
spk_0
Check out the show notes for some links to the resources Christopher was talking about.
spk_0
There you'll find details about the Community Broadband Teams Tribal Nations work as well as
spk_0
their podcast Community Broadband Bits which Christopher happens to host.
spk_0
On the subject of podcasts, I wanted to let you know that building local power is going to take
spk_0
a bit of a break to relaunch our show in an exciting new format. I'll have more details to share
spk_0
in the coming weeks, but I can't say that we're going to go deeper than we ever have on a variety
spk_0
of problems facing our communities and how communities are coming together to solve them.
spk_0
We're excited to share it with you when it's ready. In the meantime, stay tuned for some visits
spk_0
to the Building Local Power Archive. This episode of Building Local Power was produced by me Danny
spk_0
Cain with the help of Reggie Rucker. I did the editing with help from Tayon O'Hell who also
spk_0
composed the music. Thank you so much for listening and see you soon.