Technology
How to Spot a Bad Boss and Avoid Becoming One Yourself
In this episode of Get Hired, Andrew Seaman talks with Meta Malik, author of 'The Devil Emails at Midnight,' about recognizing the signs of a bad boss and the importance of effective managem...
How to Spot a Bad Boss and Avoid Becoming One Yourself
Technology •
0:00 / 0:00
Interactive Transcript
Speaker A
LinkedIn news.
Speaker B
We'Ve all had bad bosses. Some of us may have even been the bad boss. Unfortunately, we're not always good at spotting bad behavior in a potential employer or even in ourselves until it's too late. Today we're going to talk about how to recognize the red flags of a toxic culture or or a bad manager in the interview process, how to respond when you do have a bad boss, and how to avoid becoming one yourself. That's after the break.
Speaker C
Stick around from LinkedIn news. I'm Leah Smart, host of Everyday Better, an award winning podcast dedicated to personal development. Join me every week for captivating stories and research to find more fulfillment in your work and personal life. Listen to Everyday better on the LinkedIn podcast network, Apple Podcasts or, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker B
From. LinkedIn News this is Get Hired, a podcast for the ups and downs and the ever changing landscape of our professional lives. I'm Andrew Seaman, LinkedIn's editor at large for jobs and career development, bringing you conversations with experts who, like me, want to see you succeed at work, at home, and everywhere in between.
Speaker D
Bad bosses aren't born, they're made.
Speaker B
That is the central message of today's guest Meta Malik. Her new book, the Devil Emails at Midnight, is all about how people become bad bosses and what we can learn from our experiences with them to do better when we become managers. In our conversation, Meeda shares her own shortcomings as a boss, how to spot a bad boss early, and how to how to leave a toxic culture behind.
Speaker D
Here's Mita.
Speaker A
You know the first time I got promoted, God, that was not good. It was sort of a circus. The first time I had to manage a team, no one sat me down and talked to me about these things. We don't teach people about how do you coach, how do you delegate, how do you focus on the end result, all of these things. And sometimes we're just failing up in our careers. It's tied to actually manufacturing days. So if we were making widgets on a line and I exceeded the number of widgets that I created for that day and I kept doing that, you might say to me, well, you're so good at this, I'm gonna promote you and have you in charge of this entire line and other people and you're like, well, I don't know if I'm capable of doing that. I'm just really good at this one thing. And so this idea of how we recognize and value people is we promote them, we pay them more, and we're like, congratulations, now you're in charge of 10 other people's lives. But we never taught you how to go from doing to directing.
Speaker D
There's a few things that I want to walk through based on the information in the book. And the first one is, how do you spot a bad boss? Because some people, they. They just put on a good face during the interviews. They're so, like, bubbly and happy and, you know, we just have the best culture you could ever find. What do you think are some ways that job seekers can spot that bad boss?
Speaker A
I love that question because I have ignored the flags, the red flags, too many times, because the interview process is a window into what it might look like to work there. And so let's talk about the obvious signs, which we ignore. And I this in the devil emails at midnight. I wanted to work at this company so badly that I ignored all the signs. It's like 12 interviews, no glass of water, the boss interviewing you. The prospective boss is disengaged, interrupts, questions, they're late, they rescheduled the interview. You know, all the things that you've talked about, it's like all of a sudden it's like they're hot and they're cold. Like, watch for those things and don't ignore them, no matter how exciting this brand seems. And then I want to go to the other end, which I'm like, this is a great place to work. We love it. Okay, so this power of LinkedIn and the connection and the network, you can reach out to people and ask people, have you ever worked with Andrew? Have you ever worked with Mita? I've gotten those notes and I've also sent those notes. And most people will tell you honestly, with enough time, in a balanced way, what it's like to work for them. I also have always. Andrew, whenever I've gotten an offer and I'm in the driver's seat, I ask to meet with more people in the company. And I will ask questions like, tell me what the first 90 days were like, what's the year been like when you're working with me? To what are her strengths and what do you think are her areas of opportunity? Because I'm going to be working for Nita. And so I think those are ways to do it and to think about how you ask thoughtful questions. Because no one's going to answer the question, is this a toxic culture? Yes or no. But you can certainly look for signs of it.
Speaker D
And it is that thing where I think a lot of people ignore red flags because they're you know, so desperate for John. And I guess the next part is like, what. What do you think is the importance of management? Because I think a lot of people say, like, oh, I could deal with a bad manager because I've done that before.
Speaker A
I mean, isn't it the foundation of what great companies are built on? Like, it is about how you get the best out of people. We come to work every day, most of us, to get a paycheck. Some of us feel driven and purpose behind our work and we need to be coached on how to get better. We need someone to do that for us. We should be doing that for other people. And so when you are being micromanaged or have a boss who's disengaged or a boss who gossips or a boss who's a talent hoarder, all the things that I talk about in the devil emails at midnight, it chips away at you. You can't do your best work. And so it's so fascinating to me that we don't spend enough time talking about this in our workplaces or actually helping people as they are going through their career to lead bigger and bigger teams that we don't provide that support and training.
Speaker D
Yeah, a bad manager can really set you up for failure.
Speaker A
Oh, gosh.
Speaker D
Either mentally or just like professionally. Especially the talent hoarding part, I guess. Can you explain that a little bit? Because I'd love to dive into that a bit.
Speaker A
Yeah. So by the way, I changed the names and details of these people because I hope they're now good leaders. But at the time, I worked for a manager who I nicknamed Tony Soprano. And why is that? If you've watched the Sopranos, you know the story of Tony Soprano. And when I worked for this individual hoarding talent, he wouldn't let me go. So I started this assignment. I was told it would be 12 months. And then as soon as he found out, I was thinking about, what am I gonna do next? He lost. So upset, like, how dare you try to leave my team? Who gave you permission? You can go when I tell you to go. Literally, things that I still remember him saying to me in a conference sermon, you're like, what just happened here? I thought the agreement was, I took this assignment for a year and I was just trying to meet with other leaders who were thinking about what I could do next. And so I see that happen too often. So you can have human resources, you can have individuals who are trying to create succession planning and rules of the road for Andrew's gonna be in this assignment for two to three years. But Andrew is. So that Meeta just doesn't want to let him go. And who's going to stop Meta? Because Meeda will keep making excuses. Well, Andrew's been here three years, but he still needs to finish this project. And then when he finished this project, great. And now we're on year five, and, you know, Andrew just needs to finish this one other thing, and then it's just. It keeps snowballing.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker D
And I think that is a perfect example of, like, how the bad manager can actually set you up for failure in that job. And not necessarily failure, but also just.
Speaker B
It can stunt your growth, hold you back.
Speaker D
Because most of the time, you know, a manager is supposed to be providing insight for the larger company of, you know, how are things going with so and so. And, you know, a lot of companies have the policy that if you want to apply for an internal position, you first need to get the approval of your manager.
Speaker A
Absolutely.
Speaker D
And all of those things can actually put a pretty big roadblock. So if you feel like, hey, this is the perfect job for me, but then you realize, oh, this manager, you know, this team looks miserable. And they've also looked like they've been there for a while. You know, there are different flags that you can sort of check in on. So even if you say, like, I can deal with a bad manager, you know, you often don't know what you're getting. Do you have any advice for someone who feels like they're kind of stuck with a bad boss?
Speaker A
If you're stuck with a bad boss, you have to sort of self reflect on what can you change and what you can't change. Because I can go to, I'm gonna say, Andrew's the bad boss in this situation. And I can have a conversation on how you might be feeling like you're in the details of this project too much. Can we focus on the output? What did I miss? Can you coach me through mistakes? You can only do that so much until Andrew says, you know what, Meeta, you're right. Thank you for providing that feedback. I'm gonna focus less on the input and focus more on the output. That requires psychological safety. That requires a good relationship that we have, that requires your willingness to be able to hear it. And then I always start crafting that exit strategy because you can only endure that situation for so long. And whether that's internal, you can start internally looking for opportunities on your search or external. And so just to be balanced about what you individually can change and what you can't Also, I profile 13 bad bosses in the book. I'm the 13th, and probably out of those three of them really impacted my mental health. And some of them were just behaviors that were annoying but tolerable. And I learned from. And I learned what not to do, which is the point of the book.
Speaker D
And I guess this leads us into sort of especially what the book is like a handbook for people who don't want to be that pop.
Speaker A
Yes.
Speaker D
Can you tell us a little bit about like with the book, the lessons that you instill and sort of what you hope people get from it?
Speaker A
My hope is that people look at themselves in the mirror to say, I might have some of these behaviors and what happens when it swings too far the other way. I mean, that's really what it's about. I mean, I think about myself, I've certainly been a bad boss. I include that in the book. But for me, micromanaging is one I have to really watch, right? And so I can swing one way or the other. And so especially if I'm under pressure, I want to get something right. I certainly have been guilty about micromanaging. And then if I'm working with you and you say to me, you call me out on that micromanaging, then what I might do is I might go all the way back. I might then start macromanaging and become absent because then I'm like, well, I don't want to be in the details so much because you've told me not to. And so my hope is that people think about that one behavior, that they have a tendency to maybe swing the other way and how they can come to the middle.
Speaker D
I think that's really good insight because we all have weaknesses and we all have like those areas where we can improve. But I don't think a lot of people have the insight to think like, here's mine, and that's what ends up being a bad boss. And when you are being promoted or you are seeking leadership responsibilities, how do you avoid being that person? Because it is great to say like, okay, I don't want to be a micromanager. I don't want to be absent. I don't want to hold people back. But it also does take some self awareness.
Speaker A
I think there's probably three main moments when you might go into bad boss territory. One is that something is happening in the marketplace. You're being acquired, you're being sold. Your competition has an innovation out that is crushing you. Something's happening that's creating pressure that can trickle down to me, the bad boss. Second, something's happening with my own boss and that poo poo trickles down and then all of a sudden I'm feeling that pressure. And the third, which I talk about in the double emails at midnight, something's happened in your personal life or even at work, and you're bringing that in. And that's when you're micromanaging, that's when you're disengaged, that's when you're macromanaging. So to really be aware of when those pressure moments are when we might start to act like that.
Speaker B
We'll be right back with me to Malik.
Speaker E
From LinkedIn News, I'm Jessi Hempel, host of the hello Monday podcast. In my 20s, I knew what career success looked like in midlife. It's not that simple. Work is changing, we're changing, and there's no guidebook for how to make sense of it. So come figure it out with me on the hello Monday Podcast. I've been a journalist for two decades writing cover stories for BusinessWeek, Fortune, and Wired. And now every Monday I bring you conversations with people who are thinking deeply about work and where it fits into our lives. Like Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella on growth mindsets. The learn it all does better than.
Speaker A
The know it all.
Speaker E
Or NYU Professor Scott Galloway on choosing a career.
Speaker D
I think the worst advice you can give a kid is follow your passion.
Speaker E
Or MacArthur genius winner Angela Duckworth on talent versus grit.
Speaker A
Your long term effort and your long term commitment are surprisingly important.
Speaker E
Each episode delivers pragmatic advice. For right now, listen to hello Monday with me, Jessi Hempel on the LinkedIn podcast network or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker B
And we're back with Meena Malik, author of the Devil Emails at what Good Leaders Can Learn from Bad Bosses?
Speaker D
If you've had those bad managers, do you think it's helpful for people to reflect on them?
Speaker A
Absolutely. I always say be who you needed when you were younger in your career. Because I can talk about all the bad bosses I've experienced and I have. But then what's my responsibility? To show up, to do better and be better. And particularly as you're climbing the leadership ladder, to stop in those moments and reflect and think about, you know, what was the worst boss you ever had and what made them so bad? And what are those behaviors that you don't want to actually pass on. And that happens. It's like the generational trauma in workplaces. Like you've worked for these bosses and you didn't know any better and so I've coached leaders where I'm like, wow, if someone had told you about this 15 years ago, this is how you show up at work. But no one's coached them, but maybe they had a boss who acted like that. They didn't know any better, so they thought it was appropriate to scream and yell and shout at people and try to drive with fear.
Speaker D
Yeah. And that's actually something that I see often in comments, because you'll see people who talk about, like, toxic environments or, you know, microaggressions, abuse. And then there's always people in the comments that just say, suck it up. That's work. And it's like, but it doesn't have to be.
Speaker A
It doesn't have to be that way.
Speaker D
Do you think that there's any possibility of sometimes changing those people's minds or what is your hope of who you hope to sort of influence there? Do you think bad bosses can be saved? Basically?
Speaker A
That's a great question. I think they have to want to save themselves. I think some people, you know, hurt people. Hurt people. We've heard that before. I see executive coaching be weaponized too often. Some people just need therapy and they need to leave their organization and work on themselves. They're creating too much damage and havoc. So there's that piece. There's the other piece of like, well, I did this and this is what it took to get me here. And so you should just put up with all of this, whatever you think is abuse, which is just the normal way of working. And it's like paying your dues. But it's like, well, the world has shifted. And just because you went through that pain, I don't want other. Other people shouldn't have to go through that pain. And also, I think we're living in a time where this idea of loyalty between an employer and employee is broken. And so when you think about, you know, my dad, rest in peace. And when he was growing up and was an engineer and became an executive at a Fortun 500 company, but it was the pension, it was the, you do right by me, I'll do right by you. Right. And then you see globalization and how the world has changed, particularly when it came to manufacturing, it's that that doesn't work anymore.
Speaker D
Yeah.
Speaker A
And so that loyalty, that unwavering loyalty and commitment, and people are waking up, particularly in this market, to say, I could lose my job tomorrow.
Speaker D
Yeah.
Speaker A
To what end am I going to keep sacrificing pieces of myself in this toxic workplace? But I think the Question you asked is like, if it's an experience that's not your own, I hope people will listen.
Speaker D
Yeah.
Speaker A
It's like, I've never experienced that, or I have and I did something different. So. But listen to what the person's saying, and maybe you could educate yourself on a different point of view.
Speaker D
Yeah. And even if it's. You don't think it's accurate.
Speaker A
Right.
Speaker D
It's at least that person's perception.
Speaker A
It's their truth.
Speaker D
So if they are your direct report, or it's someone who genuinely cares about you, it's worth listening to them and thinking, oh, why do they have that perception?
Speaker A
Right.
Speaker D
And it's at least worth investigating. Basically doesn't cause any issue to say, like, let me reflect on myself.
Speaker A
And most people, when they're speaking up in their workplaces of things they're seeing, they actually care about their workplace. They're speaking up like, I enjoy my job, I enjoy working here, and there's something I'm seeing here that's making me uncomfortable. And so rather than shutting people down, calling them a detractor, a troublemaker, Potter, it's like, no, listen to what they have to say and think about how you might be able to help.
Speaker D
And I think also something that underlies this book, too, is not being afraid to take a different route. It's like, you know, just because you had a manager that yelled at you and made you stay at the office till seven, that doesn't mean you have to do the same thing.
Speaker A
Yeah. It's sort of this idea of toxic traditions. Right. That we're gonna pass on. It's the rite of passage. This is how I came up in the ranks. You should do the same. And it's like, what we're asking is, well, why? Why not why? Why can't it be different? Why does it have to be the same? And it could even be better for the next generation.
Speaker D
And in your experience, because you have such a successful career, you've worked on different teams. What do you think is your best piece of advice on leading a team.
Speaker A
To be in coach mode? I'm not an athlete. I can run fast, but I'm athletically challenged, so I'm not very athletic at any sport. But I always thought about, like, sports teams and coaching, like, be in coach mode. And I think when you're in coach mode, too, there's a vulnerability piece that you were saying earlier in your own experiences. It's like, oh, it's a privilege, it's heaviness to think about. I'm now responsible for these people's careers. But there's vulnerability in that. To say, here are the three things I'm working on. The worst performance reviews I've ever had. Whereas at the end, the boss turns to you and says, so how am I doing? What do you think? And it's putting people on the spot like that. It's like, what am I supposed to say? You're not leading with any kind of vulnerability. You're not saying, here are two things I'm working on. I'd love to get your feedback on that. My feedback might be, actually, I just only think you need to work on one of those things. The other thing, you're doing really well. And so I think going into coach mode and leading with vulnerability, because when you lead with vulnerability, you create a relationship where your team's going to be vulnerable back with you. And that's what I think is missing in our workplaces.
Speaker D
Yeah, I think that's a really smart approach. And obviously we covered a lot of ground. We talked about job seekers, we talk about people who might be enduring bad bosses right now in the workplace, people who might be bosses. Is there anything else that maybe we didn't talk about that you want to offer listeners?
Speaker A
I just want to go back to what you said, is that we've all had bad bosses. We will be one, we will experience one. And to just really reflect back on those moments and how we can't take those behaviors with us. I say that to my children, my 10 and 12 year old who are looking at the book and I'm like, yeah, you're not in the workplace yet, but when you are, someday you will have a bad boss for you, guaranteed. And also really interesting, like a bad boss for you might not be a bad boss for me. And there's a continuum and I think to give people the grace that we all can change and we all should show up to want to do better and be better at work.
Speaker B
That was Meta Malik, author of the Devil Emails at Midnight. Before you go, we want to hear from you. Get Hired launched an audience survey to help us understand what you want to hear from the show. You can find a link to the short survey in the show notes for this episode. I'd love it if you could fill it out. Get Hired is a production of LinkedIn News. The show is produced by Grace Rubin, Emily Reeves and Ava Ahmad Begi. Asaf Giran engineered our show. Tim Bolen mixed our show. We get additional support from Alexandra Kuznetsova and Mujeeb Mehrdad. Sarah Storm is our senior producer. Dave Pond is head of production and creative operations. Maya Pope Chappelle is director of content and audience development. Courtney Koop is head of original programming. Dan Roth is LinkedIn's Editor in Chief and vice president of content development. And I am Andrew Seaman. Until next time, stay well and best of luck.
Topics Covered
bad bosses
toxic culture
red flags in interviews
recognizing bad managers
personal development
leadership training
exit strategy from bad bosses
micromanaging
talent hoarding
self-reflection in management
how to avoid being a bad boss
workplace fulfillment
career development
coaching for managers
psychological safety in teams
generational trauma in workplaces