Technology
How To Raise a Boy
In this episode of 'How To,' host Carve O'Aless explores the complexities of raising boys in today's society. Joined by a concerned mother, Jen, they discuss the challenges of fost...
How To Raise a Boy
Technology •
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Interactive Transcript
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A middle-year man yesterday at a college.
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He had come from a high school situation
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where he was going through a lot of stuff,
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and he said, when I get to college,
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I'm gonna be a new person.
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And he started feeling like some emotions come up.
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He's like, oh man, I'm not supposed
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to be getting emotional here.
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We have sunglasses on.
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I can see a tear coming out behind them glasses.
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And I'm like, let it flow, brother.
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Let it flow.
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You're safe here.
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Welcome to How-To.
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I'm Carve O'Aless.
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What the hell is going on with men and boys?
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This is a question that has probably crossed
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a lot of people's minds, at least once
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in the past few years.
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And as long time slate listeners know,
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when I was a parenting advice columnist here,
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variations of this question would come up all the time.
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How do I raise a decent boy?
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How do I teach my son to be in touch with his feelings?
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How do I rescue my son from patriarchy and misogyny?
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How do I teach my son to respect women
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to not be racist, to not be homophobic?
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For parents, these questions have felt intense and pressing.
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And even more so in the midst of news stories
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about school shooters, male loneliness, male violence,
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sexual harassment and assault.
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But there is another side to it.
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Parents want to know how to raise boys
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that are aware of all the danger and toxicity
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in our culture around male identity.
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But they also want to know how to raise boys who love
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and respect themselves, who can have humility
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without humiliation, pride, without supremacy.
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It's a lot to figure out when you're holding
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a little innocent baby boy in your arms
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and thinking about his future.
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And it's a challenge our listener knows all about.
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My name's Jen and I am the lucky mother
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of a nine year old boy who's just,
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he's the light of my life, of course.
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You mean like a little bit of a picture
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of like what's his personality like?
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What's he interested in?
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What do you like to do?
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What lights him up?
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Tell us a little bit about him.
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Yeah, you know, he loves his friends.
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He's outdoors, he likes to play sports.
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He certainly loves video games too.
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He recently told me he wanted to be a standup comedian.
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So yeah, he's pretty outgoing.
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He's, you know, pretty respectful around adults.
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He's a great guy.
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He really, really is.
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But you know, he's getting to those preteen years
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and I always worry, you know, what direction could he go in?
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Like how can I help him to grow to be like a happy,
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healthy, confident person?
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Does he seem like a healthy, happy, confident person now?
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Generally, yes.
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Of course he has his moments when I can feel the pain
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of, you know, his self-doubt
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or maybe he'll speak badly about himself.
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And, you know, I think the worries I have
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are the same, probably his most parents,
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you know, having them be comfortable with themselves,
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being comfortable in their own heads,
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being comfortable with who they are
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and not letting peer pressure
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or one or two interactions get them down
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and start doubting themselves.
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And then certainly there's kind of stuff
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that's happening society at large.
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You hear more and more stories on the news about things
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maybe that men have done that are not good.
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Hmm.
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Has there been anything that you've seen
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that has kind of made you go, huh?
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That's, that gives me a little bit of worry.
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Oh, yeah, you know, just recently,
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I found a note that he and I had written to each other
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like a year or two ago.
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And in the note, I had apologized to him
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because I snapped at him.
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Sure.
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Because we had had a conversation
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and he said, girls do the dishes and boys fight.
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Oh, well they know.
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And I was like, oh, oh, I don't know what to blow with everybody.
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And I guess I had snapped quite a bit
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and I wrote him a note to apologize for being so harsh
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because I was feeling a little sensitive about it.
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Sure.
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So yeah, so, you know, he'll say things
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like that sometimes and just even things
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that I'll see on like TV shows and like that, you know,
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girls are boy crazy and they're kind of making fun
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of girls for it.
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Yeah.
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And you know, just stuff like that.
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Just these little things that might not mean anything
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but like now as an adult, I'm picking up on it.
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Yeah, it sounds like incorrect me if I'm wrong
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but I think that there's like a dual difficulty
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that a lot of people have raising boys now
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which is that on the one hand,
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we know the toxic masculinity or some of us
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are willing to admit that toxic masculinity kind of exists
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in the culture at large and that it sort of gets in you
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and it's kind of like in the air.
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And so you're trying to raise a kid that like isn't
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maybe under the sway of that but at the same time,
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you're also there's another thing that can happen where
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sometimes boys can internalize the idea
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that all men are bad men do nothing but are terrible
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and so as a result, they have a hard time finding an identity
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and how to be themselves.
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And it's like it feels like a little bit of a fine needle
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to thread.
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Does that resonate with you as a parent?
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It certainly does.
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As society changes, the challenges that women have faced
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are pretty darn clear.
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The answers aren't easy but you can really see it.
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Like oh, women weren't allowed to vote.
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That's pretty blunt.
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But with men, it's more subtle.
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Like there's all these expectations
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either for the good or for the bad
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and it's just not as well defined.
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And so I think so many men have to kind of deal
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with that balance and again, as he's growing up,
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how do we help him find himself
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and who he wants to be and be comfortable with that?
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So on today's show, how do you raise a boy
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to be what Jen described in her email to us?
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A person who knows himself is proud of who he is
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and is accepting and open to who others are?
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And fortunately for Jen, we've reached out to someone
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who has dedicated his career to helping all kids,
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but especially boys, prepare for adulthood.
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And we're going to meet him right after the break.
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Stay with us.
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Hey, it's Mary Harris.
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Hosted or slates daily news podcast, what next?
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I'm talking with Amicus co-host, Mark Joseph Stern
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about the Supreme Court's new term,
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which technically starts this week.
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The thing about this year though,
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is that Mark feels like he already knows
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who's gonna win in court, Donald Trump,
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which leaves him with a whole other question.
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Can he call these justices judges?
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The law is changing every day, it seems.
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And the Supreme Court is often changing the law
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without explaining itself.
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So it's again, hard to conceptualize that as law,
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hard to describe it accurately or fairly as judging.
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It looks a lot more like a super legislature,
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just passing a bunch of statutes that it thinks
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are best for the country and doing so
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without ever receiving a single vote from the American people.
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Check out what next, wherever you listen.
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I'm Dalia Lithue.
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I'm Mark Joseph Stern.
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We host Amicus Slates podcast about courts, the law,
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and the Supreme Court.
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Trump's second term is speed running the collapse
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And as we lurch into a new term at the high court,
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The Robert's Court is so far answering, Hell yeah.
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We truly believe that legal knowledge is power,
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the thinkers, the court watchers,
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and the litigators who can break it all down.
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Follow Amicus wherever you get your podcasts.
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New episodes every Saturday.
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We'll see you there.
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Our expert, Ashanti Branch, wears a lot of hats.
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He's a youth development worker.
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He hosts a podcast called Unmasking with Mail Educators,
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and he's the founder of the Ever Forward Club,
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a youth development and mentoring program
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for boys and young men in the Bay Area.
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But this wasn't always Ashanti's plan.
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He was a kid.
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He dreamed of something a little bit different.
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I was from Oakland, California.
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I was raised by a single mother.
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My plan was to be rich, because growing up poor
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wasn't no fun.
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I said, we got to find another way.
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And they said, you're good at math.
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You should be an engineer.
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I'm like, the engineers make a lot of money.
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They're like, a lot, and I'm like, sign me up.
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So I went to study engineering, graduated,
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working on big buildings for about four or five years,
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and there was a calling that started happening.
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A buddy of mine asked me what I tutor
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at the program called Upward Bound,
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and the call got louder.
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And I was like, where was this?
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And I was like, so I started tutoring in another program.
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It got even louder.
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Like, this is what you should be doing.
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So Ashanti became a teacher,
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but despite the strength of that calling,
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in the beginning, things didn't exactly go smoothly.
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I'm doing a horrible job.
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I'm not got smart young men in my class.
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Smart.
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They're filling algebra.
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And I realized that it wasn't about that.
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There was so much going on with them internally,
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that they couldn't even see the math.
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I said to them, look, I'll buy you lunch once a week.
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Exchange for lunch, you teach me how to be a better teacher.
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And that's how the Everett 4 club started.
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And then whenever 4 club started,
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I realized, oh, there's more to what I need to do
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as a teacher than just teach.
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Like, I have to be a mentor, a friend sometimes,
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a warm enforcer, sometimes a heavy handed enforcer.
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And I realized that my role as a teacher was very different.
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One of the things Ashanti finally realized
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is that much of the behavior of the boys in his class
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came from a need they had to protect themselves from others.
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To always be on guard.
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I realized that a lot of the young men,
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the way you get a lot of credit in many schools,
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is if you push up against the,
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so when I would tell a young man, just go to class,
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they wanna yell at me and give, I'm like, what's going on here?
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And I realized there was a lot of battles happening.
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I'm like, you don't have a battle with me.
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I'm not your enemy.
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I want you to get your education.
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So anyway, fast forward, I was working with me
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at Oakland or free my high school, my alma mater.
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And the activity I had tried with them
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was like my last resort.
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Every time we give my body motions, they start fighting.
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They wanna fight.
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They were rather like make fun of somebody's shoes
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because they know that person gonna react.
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And then we have a long argument about blah, blah, blah,
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and drama because they felt we were about
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to start talking about feelings.
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Like it was like that, brablatin.
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I said, well, look, how about, we don't talk about it.
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Just write the words on the paper.
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And don't put your name on it,
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just write the words on the paper.
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That practice of simply putting words on paper
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became a cornerstone of his approach.
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And it eventually evolved into an exercise
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where kids created a paper mask.
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On the outside of the mask, they list three qualities
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that they let other people see.
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On the inside, three qualities that they keep hidden
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from others.
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Ashanti says, this helps kids start to recognize
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and talk about their identity, their sense of self,
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their feelings.
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And to acknowledge that while they present some of that
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to the world, they keep other parts of it hidden away.
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And part of the reason this works
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is because it helps these young men
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become conscious of and comfortable with who they really are.
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And it helps them to differentiate between that
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and what they think society wants them to be.
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And when it worked, my mind was blown and I realized,
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maybe sometimes they don't have the words out loud.
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Maybe they don't have the trust in the environment
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to say it.
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That's right.
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I mean, a lot of the context now is that
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that young men and boys are facing an increased challenge
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from five, 10, 15 years ago, that there's a resurgence
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of misogyny of masculinity, male supremacy,
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all this podcast, but like it's like,
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do you think, and even in Jen's question,
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there's some anxiety about like the kind of the world
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outside and when is that going to encroach?
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And guys being radicalized online, et cetera, et cetera,
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are you seeing from your perspective
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there's an increased challenge faced by these young men?
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Yeah, I do.
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I think there's a lot of challenge, right?
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And what I've often seen, what I see even today,
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is because we live in a capitalist society,
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there will be always those who will say,
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I think I can make some money off of this.
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Most of the people who are leading the work
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in the manned sphere, whatever,
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they're not doing it for free.
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If you're a young man right now and you feel lonely,
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now you have one side that says,
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hey, talk about how you feel.
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You have lots of people now that are more giving you room
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for that before there was no room for that.
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Suck it up, don't show no feelings, be a man, man up.
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And now you have this other side that says,
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man, they're trying to make you into a girl.
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Now you talk about feelings,
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they're trying to make you into a whatever word
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they feel in the blank in your community,
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but the words are out there.
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You went from the simple language, right?
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Don't be a simple, don't be a beta, don't be a this.
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Be like, you're just like, okay, well,
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can everybody be alphas?
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Is it really possible that everyone's gonna walk around
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alphas?
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You know what I'm saying?
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How does that work?
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Tell me how that works.
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And I went in a room for the 20 young men.
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And sadly, we see the behavior over and over again
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of every man in the run room trying to be the alpha.
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And it's like no one's listening to each other.
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And I'm like, oh, you all have bought into a behavior
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that says I have to make everybody else feel small,
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so I feel good.
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And now no one's gonna win, right?
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Because we don't get anything done,
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we don't make any progress,
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and we're all arguing and fighting
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because we think we want the same thing.
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Buying into a behavior that says
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you have to make everybody else feel small
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so that I can feel good is exactly
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what our listener, Jen, is trying to avoid with her son.
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As he approaches middle school,
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she's desperate to keep him from falling
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into some of these traps.
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And she's concerned that he may already
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be showing some signs of being susceptible.
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Jen, you mentioned like he's a great kid.
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And then when you said the word,
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he speaks badly about himself.
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And that one stood out to me because if I,
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it can be more honest than I usually am.
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Like I'm probably my worst friend.
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And I think growing up when I think about being that age,
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I don't think I ever talked to my mom about how bad
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I felt about myself.
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And so, Jen, the fact that he's talking to you
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about that when he doesn't feel good about himself,
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he has a trust in you to say,
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and maybe that he's looking for some guidance
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on how to navigate those thoughts
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and how to push through those thoughts
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or how to like drown out those thoughts,
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all the ways that we sometimes ask for help
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and not know how to ask for it
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or think that it's bad to ask for help.
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So we may just drop a subliminal message out
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in the car on the way home
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and you're like, what did I just hear?
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What did he just say?
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Right? And maybe that subliminal message
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trying to get some attention
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or to see how the conversation can go.
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Can I say something like this and not have you flip out
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and have you come to me with some kindness
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and love and patience because you're an adult
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speaking from an adult perspective,
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I'm a kid speaking from a kid perspective
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and we are speaking two different languages sometimes.
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Yeah, I'm a little bit of an older parent
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and I'm kind of glad that I am
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because I didn't know what I was doing getting into this
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and so I've just tried to like read and learn
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and figure out what makes sense to me
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and just trying to be open to him
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and not overreact when he wants to say something,
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but listen, make sure I'm picking up on it.
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And so when I hear him say something negative
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about himself, I did that when I was young.
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And so it kind of makes me think,
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oh, is there a way I can maybe help him now?
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So he's not like me and is finally like 42 when he realizes
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he can love himself and he's great as how he is.
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You know?
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Yeah, I think what was really smart
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about the way you framed your question,
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Jan, is that like you've talked about wanting to raise a boy
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who like doesn't fall into some of the traps
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that it seems like are set or available
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for men and boys to fall into in our culture.
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But then you sort of went to the root of that
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which is like, well, how do I make sure
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that he feels good about himself?
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So that he's not susceptible to these kinds of other things.
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So I guess my question for Shanti is like,
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how much are you supposed to tell a kid like,
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you're great, I love you, you're perfect,
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I love you just the way you are.
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And how much are you supposed to sort of be like
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setting goals for them and kind of like
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doing stuff that may be right as criticism
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because you're trying to make them better.
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I mean, I know this is an age old parenting question,
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but I'd love to Shanti to hear a little bit
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about your thoughts on this.
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I think sometimes, depending on the age of the boy
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and even the child in general, but the boy,
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like he may say, well, you have to say that
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because you're my mom, right?
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When I think about all the young men
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who have worked with them, mentor the hundreds of young men,
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all of them need something different, right?
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Some you tell them, dude, I think you're amazing.
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I think you can do some amazing things.
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And I've found that if they don't believe it in themselves,
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no matter what I say, almost is like,
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I'm talking to the wind because they think that internally
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they have come to a belief.
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So I think what's beautiful is like,
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how do we help our boys and really understand, hey,
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what are the things you're saying to yourself
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that you don't say how loud, right?
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It sounds like, Jen, he's talking to you a lot,
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but imagine if you were to say, hey,
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can I tell you what I'm seeing today?
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Can I tell you what I'm seeing?
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And maybe behavior's attitudes
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or maybe just like the way he's showing up in the day
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or the week, can I tell you what I'm seeing?
spk_0
Cause I don't know really a whole story,
spk_0
but here's what I'm seeing.
spk_0
And I use the mask as a metaphor
spk_0
because I can only tell you what I'm seeing on the outside
spk_0
or how I'm reading what I'm seeing.
spk_0
But what am I missing?
spk_0
I love the question that Ashanti ended with.
spk_0
What am I missing?
spk_0
Because it does two very important things.
spk_0
Number one, it opens up space for the kid
spk_0
to talk about what's important to them
spk_0
rather than just responding to you.
spk_0
And secondly, it acknowledges the thing
spk_0
that pretty much all teenagers are desperate
spk_0
to have acknowledged, which is that just because you're a parent
spk_0
doesn't mean you know everything.
spk_0
See, when you're a teenager,
spk_0
you're already pretty cynical
spk_0
about what you think the adults in your life
spk_0
can truly understand about your experience.
spk_0
But the thing is, you want to be understood.
spk_0
So every once in a while, you'll test the waters
spk_0
to see if they can pick up on what you're hinting at.
spk_0
If as a parent, you were able to respond
spk_0
to these moments with genuine curiosity,
spk_0
it can go a long way towards encouraging your team
spk_0
to open up.
spk_0
And this is especially important
spk_0
if what they're sharing is something
spk_0
that you may not entirely want to hear.
spk_0
Kids read that energy by just a small step
spk_0
when they test in the water.
spk_0
And they know they can have a bad day
spk_0
and you're not gonna just over-simplify with positivity.
spk_0
Like, then they know they can trust you
spk_0
on those hard days.
spk_0
They can be like, man, today, this thing happened.
spk_0
And I think sometimes, you know,
spk_0
they're hungry for just kind of validating their own feelings.
spk_0
I try and go to curiosity first.
spk_0
I try and stay in curiosity mode as long as I can.
spk_0
And sometimes I don't even have to go into advice mode.
spk_0
I can just get really, really curious
spk_0
about what they're thinking, what they're feeling,
spk_0
where that feeling came from, why did they believe that?
spk_0
And usually sometimes they kind of work it out themselves, right?
spk_0
But they didn't have helped, right?
spk_0
And I'm only helped because I was just
spk_0
peered at some of the layers off so they could see,
spk_0
oh, I wasn't mad.
spk_0
I was sad, but I can't show sadness at schools.
spk_0
Or I got embarrassed, right?
spk_0
I got embarrassed because this person said this to me,
spk_0
but I don't know how to do embarrassment,
spk_0
so I do anger.
spk_0
And so how do they shift in motions?
spk_0
Ashanti, thank you so much.
spk_0
I love what you're saying, because it really,
spk_0
it's like pulls things together,
spk_0
because certainly my son is not the kind of person
spk_0
that is just gonna love it
spk_0
if you shower him with ridiculous amounts of praises.
spk_0
If I were to go in and tell him after every soccer,
spk_0
I'm like, oh, you're perfect, you're amazing, you degree.
spk_0
He would get offended and annoyed,
spk_0
because he knows he isn't perfect.
spk_0
I think he'd rather hear, honestly, of course,
spk_0
of course we're gonna be positive about it,
spk_0
but I've just really noticed that about him
spk_0
and be it coming from me or from other family,
spk_0
like they're just falling over him,
spk_0
it makes him uncomfortable.
spk_0
It reminds me of the time that he had a soccer game
spk_0
and he missed a couple goals,
spk_0
but generally he had a good game
spk_0
and he didn't want to hear that from me,
spk_0
but when the parents of his friend came up
spk_0
and they were like, hey, it's actually great,
spk_0
then he was like, okay, okay, it's not just my mom,
spk_0
you know, saying stuff and it's okay that I messed up
spk_0
and so it really helped him to kind of hear
spk_0
things from a couple different sources.
spk_0
Absolutely, and I think what you see with boys
spk_0
in my experience in that age,
spk_0
they're hearing a lot from each other, right?
spk_0
And so sometimes how they see themselves
spk_0
is connected to how others are seeing them
spk_0
and our role has often been,
spk_0
oh, wait, why did you say that?
spk_0
Where did you get that from?
spk_0
And then sometimes I was like,
spk_0
well, that's what people think, right?
spk_0
That I remember this one boy who I worked with,
spk_0
I asked him, I said, tell me how it works
spk_0
amongst the boys at this school, right?
spk_0
And he's like, well, let me draw it for you
spk_0
and he took a piece of paper and he's like,
spk_0
well, there is the boys on top, right?
spk_0
And he started naming the characters
spk_0
of the boys on top.
spk_0
Are they here popular?
spk_0
They're girls I wanna talk to them?
spk_0
People give them their snacks, right?
spk_0
And it was a very heartbreaking as I think about it
spk_0
because he was at the bottom.
spk_0
He's like, I'm down down here.
spk_0
He's like, yeah, and I'm just,
spk_0
I'm so glad he had the language for that
spk_0
to recognize not only the social structure
spk_0
and I said to him, I didn't have any answers.
spk_0
I said, you're very talented.
spk_0
And maybe it may sometimes be hard
spk_0
to be around others who think differently.
spk_0
But if you compare yourself to others
spk_0
in different categories,
spk_0
you could always find yourself
spk_0
in different levels or in different categories.
spk_0
And I think helping him know that that's also true, right?
spk_0
That, oh, I may have not done well today,
spk_0
but it doesn't mean I'm a bad person.
spk_0
So how do I not like use this one thing
spk_0
to like weigh my whole self down?
spk_0
It's just okay.
spk_0
Today in sports, I had some mistakes,
spk_0
but I'm still a good person.
spk_0
I saw a good heart.
spk_0
I still work hard on my studies.
spk_0
But sometimes we just get like hyper focus
spk_0
that everything is now bad
spk_0
because I did this one thing.
spk_0
And we try and help them just widen the view.
spk_0
Come back, back out a little bit.
spk_0
Back out a little bit.
spk_0
There's more to you than soccer.
spk_0
There's more to you than this.
spk_0
There's more to you than math.
spk_0
There's more to you.
spk_0
So let's back out a little bit.
spk_0
Okay, look at it.
spk_0
And then how do we start naming?
spk_0
How do we do better, if we want to do better about it?
spk_0
Yeah, how do we do that?
spk_0
Yeah, I mean, I want you to tell us a little bit
spk_0
about how to do that.
spk_0
And I will just say that like just to draw something out
spk_0
for our listeners, like a connection is being made for me
spk_0
that I don't think I've ever made
spk_0
even in my own childhood and as a parent
spk_0
of two now adult children.
spk_0
I felt like I was on the bottom
spk_0
of whatever social order when I was a kid.
spk_0
And I would tell my mother about this
spk_0
and she would say stuff, you know, things like
spk_0
that was good-hearted but felt like ridiculous advice.
spk_0
She'd be like, well, if kids make fun of you
spk_0
just laugh along with them or just whatever goofy stuff
spk_0
or she'd say you're so wonderful, you're so great,
spk_0
or just whatever it was.
spk_0
And I'd be like, mom, like, and it's just now dawning
spk_0
on me that the reason I that didn't work for me
spk_0
is because I didn't believe her
spk_0
because I believed my peers more.
spk_0
And that I don't think I ever made that connection
spk_0
that like as parents, we do have all this power
spk_0
in our kids' lives, but that the older they get
spk_0
and the more time they spend in the world,
spk_0
the more power their social group has
spk_0
on the way they understand things
spk_0
and that our voices can be limited.
spk_0
So part of what we do is not just say like,
spk_0
oh, no, everyone in your social group is wrong
spk_0
and I'm right, it sounds like part of what you're saying
spk_0
is that we help them contextualize
spk_0
that voice of the social group to say,
spk_0
well, that's one way of looking at it,
spk_0
but that's just one way of looking at it.
spk_0
There's so much more to you than what
spk_0
a group of like nine-year-olds think about you.
spk_0
What you just said is so beautiful.
spk_0
There's a quote that says,
spk_0
influence is subtle, but it's powerful.
spk_0
And so like, it's like if you were running around a track
spk_0
and somebody may not just like shove you
spk_0
over off the track, but they just start running
spk_0
a little bit in your lane.
spk_0
They start moving closer to you,
spk_0
they start getting in your space,
spk_0
they start pushing you over and you look up
spk_0
and you're like, wait, I'm on my way off track,
spk_0
how did this happen?
spk_0
Well, it wasn't that they shoved you off,
spk_0
they didn't even touch you.
spk_0
They literally just let their influence
spk_0
of like saying certain things,
spk_0
oh, why are you wearing those shoes?
spk_0
Why are you wearing that color?
spk_0
Oh, why did you say that?
spk_0
Why are you using that language?
spk_0
Why are you listening to that song?
spk_0
And it's this confirmation that happens
spk_0
with boys that often causes that pressure
spk_0
because there's probably a lot of books out there
spk_0
and there's definitely a lot of influences out there
spk_0
that I'll sell you a program for 1995,
spk_0
but there are like what happens on the playground
spk_0
where it's just a subtle free, un-solicited advice
spk_0
by some other nine-year-old who's like,
spk_0
dude, you wore that today?
spk_0
Why did you wear that?
spk_0
And you're thinking like, this is brand new,
spk_0
right?
spk_0
This is my digs, you know?
spk_0
And then mom, you're like,
spk_0
why don't you wear that thing anymore?
spk_0
That was, that was, yeah.
spk_0
I thought you thought you loved that thing.
spk_0
And then they're like, ah, I don't know,
spk_0
it doesn't fit well, they may tell you the truth
spk_0
or they may say a story
spk_0
because they need to not hurt your feelings
spk_0
or hurt the grandparents who bought it feelings, right?
spk_0
And so you just like, okay,
spk_0
how many things are being influenced by other people
spk_0
that they, I mean, I ever know
spk_0
or that I don't know, you know?
spk_0
One of the toughest things as a parent
spk_0
is to watch the influence of other people shape your kid.
spk_0
You're standing there on the sideline going,
spk_0
I believe in you, I think you're amazing, I love you.
spk_0
But your voice is just one of many
spk_0
that are giving your kid feedback
spk_0
about who they are in this world.
spk_0
So how do you help them tune out those negative voices?
spk_0
That's what we're gonna talk about after this quick break.
spk_0
On billboards hot 100,
spk_0
America's flagship pop chart,
spk_0
there are number ones, and then there are number one debut.
spk_0
Right foot slide.
spk_0
Join me, Chris Malanfi,
spk_0
for a look at the chart calculus,
spk_0
superfan interventions, and fluke conditions
spk_0
that turn a brand new single into an instant success
spk_0
without any guarantee of longevity.
spk_0
When it comes to hits, it's not where you start,
spk_0
it's where you finish.
spk_0
Find hip-parade wherever you get your podcasts.
spk_0
Hey, it's Anna Sale, host of Death, Sex, and Money,
spk_0
the podcast from Slate about the things we think about a lot
spk_0
and need to talk about more.
spk_0
And recently we asked you to tell us stories
spk_0
about your beauty interventions,
spk_0
what you've decided to invest time and money in
spk_0
to improve your appearance.
spk_0
So I looked at my dad, and I looked at him carefully,
spk_0
and said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
spk_0
We are gonna sail in a different direction than this.
spk_0
We heard from people who spent thousands
spk_0
on plastic surgery, fillers, and skincare routines,
spk_0
and from others who decided to reject pressure
spk_0
like covering grades.
spk_0
It's kind of like, why do I need to do that?
spk_0
I mean, for you, is it for you?
spk_0
Or, because you're embarrassed to have a friend
spk_0
or a spouse with gray hair?
spk_0
I mean, what is the encouragement from?
spk_0
And you told us about feeling caught
spk_0
between viewing appearance improvements as vanity
spk_0
and recognizing how much looking a certain way
spk_0
affects your relationships, career, and self-worth.
spk_0
I'd like to think of myself as a person with depth
spk_0
a person who values intelligence and kindness,
spk_0
and yet sometimes I worry
spk_0
that my appearance in the doors that my appearance have opened,
spk_0
those are gonna close if I don't continue
spk_0
to look this particular way.
spk_0
Listen to this episode and more Death Sex and Money episodes
spk_0
wherever you get podcasts.
spk_0
As I mentioned before, I used to be a parenting columnist
spk_0
here at Slate, which included doling out advice every week
spk_0
on Slate's parenting show now called Karen Feeding.
spk_0
Well, guess what?
spk_0
The show is now twice a week and is hosted
spk_0
by a great group of parents who are raising kids
spk_0
ranging from toddlers to teens.
spk_0
They share their parenting triumphs and fails
spk_0
and even dispense some hard earned wisdom.
spk_0
Find Slate's Karen Feeding wherever you get your podcasts.
spk_0
We're back with a Shanti branch, founder of the Ever Forward Club,
spk_0
and Jen, who wants to help her nine-year-old son, Zach,
spk_0
grow into a confident, respectful, and happy young man.
spk_0
Shanti, what are the kind of things that we can encourage
spk_0
with our kids that will help build resilience and self-confidence?
spk_0
So when maybe there is that challenging person
spk_0
or the challenging thing in one aspect
spk_0
that it doesn't just tear down his self-worth in general?
spk_0
If we think about the full being, when you talk about what you
spk_0
envision for him in the future, he would be happy.
spk_0
He would get up in the morning and be excited to go out
spk_0
and do the things he really wants to do.
spk_0
Maybe even just starting bringing back from the future,
spk_0
those things you want.
spk_0
And so, hey, what are some things you like to do?
spk_0
What are some things you like to do?
spk_0
What are some things you want to do more of?
spk_0
I think you begin creating a list with him,
spk_0
even if it's on a whiteboard or a piece of paper,
spk_0
is like, what are the things that you want to do more of
spk_0
that you don't get to do?
spk_0
What are some things that you want to try?
spk_0
What are some things that you want to explore?
spk_0
What is an adventure you want to go on at some point in the future?
spk_0
And it's not like I'm promising you this list of things.
spk_0
It's like, let's start thinking about what are some things
spk_0
that could add just a different, more layers of value
spk_0
to your life?
spk_0
And I think that those kind of things are really beautiful
spk_0
for boys as it gets to be creative around that.
spk_0
You know, like, I want to go hiking somewhere.
spk_0
Now, maybe you don't want to go hiking with him,
spk_0
but maybe you have some men in your life who can,
spk_0
it's somebody who loves to hike.
spk_0
And maybe they can plan a hiking trip with,
spk_0
I don't know how it all works, right?
spk_0
But you pull it all together and say,
spk_0
oh, he's heard about this topic about stocks.
spk_0
And he doesn't, he wants to learn more about that.
spk_0
Who do I know that, no?
spk_0
And so I think it's like, as he begins to add more layers
spk_0
to his life of things that he's interested in,
spk_0
then when some, one of those pieces doesn't go well,
spk_0
it's not like I only do soccer.
spk_0
So when soccer goes bad, I overjudge myself
spk_0
because that's the only thing I do outside of just living,
spk_0
just a day-to-day living stuff.
spk_0
And so I think that's one thought that I have.
spk_0
It's just like making room for just the exploration
spk_0
of what it means to be fully human
spk_0
and also have multiple things that you're interested in.
spk_0
You know?
spk_0
Yeah, and this is great because some of the examples you gave
spk_0
are hopeful because I'm always worried about adding too many things.
spk_0
You know, I don't want to have always had like five different sports
spk_0
and all these different activities.
spk_0
And you know, I've got a job that I got to do day-to-day.
spk_0
You know, I can't be running into every activity in the world,
spk_0
but like you mentioned some stuff that's like,
spk_0
it could be just like a one-of-a-troward conversation
spk_0
with an adult friend or an uncle or something.
spk_0
Just to explore some topics of interest that he might,
spk_0
you know, just areas to grow and get into.
spk_0
Well, also what I like about what you're saying,
spk_0
Shanti, is that it kind of puts him in the driver's seat of his self.
spk_0
That makes sense because it feels like that part of what is really hard for us
spk_0
when we're growing up is that these other people,
spk_0
I have a friend who once described it as,
spk_0
you let other people have the joystick to your game.
spk_0
This is an old person reference because no one has joysticks anymore,
spk_0
but like someone else has the controller, right?
spk_0
So like you're a video game, but someone else is like determining
spk_0
which way you walk and how you feel.
spk_0
And if you think you're cool, if you think you don't.
spk_0
And what you're talking about, like by kind of figuring out what are my core interests?
spk_0
What kind of person do I want to be?
spk_0
What sort of things do I want to do?
spk_0
You sort of take the controller back a little bit.
spk_0
One thought I have in this is,
spk_0
is a great time to start thinking about it.
spk_0
You know, have you heard of rights of passage?
spk_0
Have you heard of the idea of rights of passage?
spk_0
Yes.
spk_0
Like there's a journey between becoming from a boy
spk_0
to when you would consider him to be a man, right?
spk_0
Yes, certainly.
spk_0
And more Western society, we don't have like,
spk_0
you know, the old, you know, rights of passage where they sent people out
spk_0
with some adventure.
spk_0
What I talk to you, I mean, I say,
spk_0
when do you know that you become a man, right?
spk_0
And they're like, okay, I got a job or I got a license
spk_0
and maybe I've done some things, right?
spk_0
Like some things.
spk_0
They begin to like name some things in our society
spk_0
that signify our graduate, high school, now I'm a man, right?
spk_0
Rights of passage is not always age-specific.
spk_0
It gets like maturity-specific, right?
spk_0
You're already thinking about how to support him
spk_0
is like really asking, asking those questions for you.
spk_0
Here's the kind of man that I'm looking for him to be in the world
spk_0
and then asking him, what are the things you're interested in being?
spk_0
What are some things that are important to you?
spk_0
And I think that with that list, you begin to be able to say,
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okay, these are some things that are going to help him develop.
spk_0
And some of those things are changed, right?
spk_0
From nine to 12, things may dramatically change
spk_0
in terms of his interest,
spk_0
but it's okay with his opportunity for him to keep adding
spk_0
to that list or changing that list and saying,
spk_0
yeah, I don't like that thing anymore.
spk_0
I want to do more of this, right?
spk_0
And I think that's part of the growth too.
spk_0
For example, in our family, we have this thing going for a while
spk_0
where kind of in our friend group at large,
spk_0
there would be sort of like one trip
spk_0
that like the kids would take at 15 with the parent.
spk_0
And it would just be like a thing that just sort of said,
spk_0
like, yeah, this is, they know going in that like when you're 15,
spk_0
we do this thing, whether it's like whatever,
spk_0
like Mexico or Iceland or whatever is,
spk_0
you go on the thing.
spk_0
And then it's just sort of like marks that, yes,
spk_0
time is passing, I'm growing,
spk_0
my relationship with my parents is changing,
spk_0
I'm becoming responsible for more stuff,
spk_0
it's just a medication.
spk_0
With the idea of rights of passage,
spk_0
which I think is important and fantastic,
spk_0
I guess what's in my mind is there's a challenge
spk_0
that the young person goes through and they overcome that challenge,
spk_0
and then there is the acknowledgement of that
spk_0
and like now you are an adult.
spk_0
And then it is that process of learning to overcome the challenge
spk_0
that in theory gives them the confidence to step out into the world as an adult.
spk_0
And like you said, we don't really have that structurally in our society anymore.
spk_0
And so I guess I, you know,
spk_0
what are things we can do again to help them develop that confidence in themselves,
spk_0
knowing that they can step out into the world.
spk_0
But also I love what you just said about like the family trip,
spk_0
because that is one thing we all love to do in our family and acknowledging,
spk_0
like at a certain age, like you get to do this big trip of so-and-so,
spk_0
because that's just a beautiful way to do it and expose them to the wider world in general.
spk_0
But yeah, that that rights of passage thing and the,
spk_0
how do we work in the challenge and letting them know that
spk_0
stuff being difficult is okay, that's all part of it.
spk_0
I've been mentoring with an organization called Young Men's Ultimate Weekend, right?
spk_0
And so it's for boys and what we learn is called a modern day rights of passage.
spk_0
So it when no one's out hunting, right?
spk_0
It's more like teamwork, community, leadership, learning how to follow, right?
spk_0
You do these tasks, you work as a team to go through these obstacle courses.
spk_0
And so it's just, it's created to kind of mimic this idea of like how do we give you some tools
spk_0
that will prepare you for this next journey of what it means to be a man in the world?
spk_0
And then they're like, oh, I'm supposed to be a man. How do I do that?
spk_0
I think sometimes I, the age-linginiation is causing men to be like, oh, when I try to 18,
spk_0
the life is going to get easier and better. And I'm going to have no worries. And you're like,
spk_0
well, I guess it depends on what you define as worries.
spk_0
Yeah, so I think like how do we help them recognize it? Oh, okay, some of you may graduate
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high school at 17, some graduate 18. So do I have to wait till I 18 now to be really a real man?
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Like, and but the, you know, when eight, when his age line lined out, it's coming to get stuck.
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But when we say, here's what you've done, here are the things you've accomplished.
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And now we're, we're going to honor you and respect you in another category, right?
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It's just part of that growing up.
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Do you find getting them out of their normal situation and in a new situation where it is,
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they're kind of about them and about team building and stuff?
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Is that generally beneficial for most kids? Like, is that something that, you know,
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if he has kind of opportunities, it's worth taking? Yeah, I think that, you know, it's going to be
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individual for him, right? So like, for a lot of the boys who come, their parents have either
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required them to come, forcing to come, bribe them to come, or they wanted to come, and they
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love the outdoors, right? So some, some, the comfort of their bed is very attractive. And so being
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outdoors for three days is a little bit beyond their comfort level. But most of them, when they
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finally go through the experience, I think it's a way for them to recognize, oh, I'm not alone.
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I am myself, I am unique in myself. But what I go through as a young man is not alone. Like,
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other people here are trying to figure out how to fit in. Other people here are trying to figure out
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how to feel good about themselves. Other people are trying to figure out how to talk to girls,
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or whatever the things that their current life is bringing them. And they're not, when they can
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recognize that there's other young men going through similar things, I think it begins to like
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build a camaraderie in the connection. And so it's, we, you know, we've created it, but, you know,
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it's been going on for years, right? If we all lived in the same little village, the boys would
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all come together at the certain time when they were ready to go through their experience, they
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would go through it together, and they may know each other in some way, but they're going to learn
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each other a different way as they go through a challenge, right? So I think it's just a beautiful
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way of just like, as you're creating, and you always friends, it's friendly group in the parents that
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you talk to, maybe you all are creating something like that for them at different phases. Maybe it's
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one that happens at 10 and one that happens at 12 or one, you know, you space it or you say,
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hey, what does this mean for us to help the young men grow that are helping young people just have
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this transition between being a kid and now growing into a young adult and their phases along the
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journey. So that's how we've done it. And for those boys who are middle school and high school,
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there's a lot of growth between sixth grade and tenth grade, right? And these younger boys get
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to see the older boys going through their own challenges too, right? It's like, oh, the bigger
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boys don't have it all figured out. I thought that when you become a high schooler, it makes everything
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better and you realize they're messed up too. They're messed up too. They don't know what they're doing.
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And I think it's a part opportunity for their own development and growth is like, oh, okay,
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it's a journey. Oh, I don't just turn 15 and now I have it all figured out. If I haven't worked
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on the stuff I want to figure out and it's helping them come up with the questions of what they
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want to work on and it'll be better at. Thank you. I think you're for the work that you do and
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teaching kids and boys that it's okay to acknowledge it. That seems like a big part of it. Yeah,
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thank you so much. Thanks for having these questions. I'm so excited for this journey. I look
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forward to hearing more in the future. So much of this can seem overwhelming or complicated,
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but if I could boil down much of what was discussed here into one main idea, it would be that there's
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a real value in making it possible for boys to be able to understand and communicate their feelings.
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All of them, the ones they are proud of and the ones that they don't fully understand.
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This can help them not be strangers to themselves. It can help make the world a less scary place
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and it can give that all-important moment of pause and space between feeling and action.
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Space that can help them behave like the good, responsible, caring and loving people that most
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boys truly want to be, even if society doesn't always encourage it. In today's Slate Plus bonus
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episode, Ashanti Gen and I talk more about identity and what it means to be raising a white boy
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who is confident in who he is but is also respectful of others. If you aren't already a Slate Plus
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member, you can subscribe now and Apple podcasts by clicking try free at the top of the HowTo
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The episode is available for you to listen to right now. We'll see you there.
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Do you have a problem that needs solving? Send us a note at HowToItSlate.com or leave us a
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voicemail at 646-495-4001 and we might have you on the show. HowTo is produced by Rosie Belsen
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Meredith Jacob is Senior Technical Director and composed our theme music. Charles Duhig created
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the show Courtney Martin is my co-host and I'm Carva Lawless. Thanks for listening.