How to Become Resilient

Interactive Transcript

spk_0 Welcome back everybody to the Solved Podcast, the most over researched and evidence-based

spk_0 life-advised podcast in the world.

spk_0 I'm Mark Manson, number one New York Times bestselling author.

spk_0 This is my co-host, producer, and intrepid lead researcher, Drew Bernie.

spk_0 And for those of you who are new to the show, the point of Solved is to go so deep, be so exhaustive

spk_0 on one single topic that by the end of the episode, you feel like you have everything you need

spk_0 to solve this issue in your life.

spk_0 Now, today's topic, Drew, is resilience.

spk_0 And I have to say, you and the research team went fucking hard on this one.

spk_0 We did.

spk_0 We very much did.

spk_0

spk_0 I think so every episode, we include a PDF guide, which is a full summary of the episode,

spk_0 including all the research and citations.

spk_0 This PDF guide has 164 citations, and from what I understand, you guys cut like a hundred of them.

spk_0 For more than that, actually, closer to like 250, but yeah.

spk_0 What is this monster I have created?

spk_0 And as always, we cover a lot of material in this podcast.

spk_0 So if you at any point feel like you're being overwhelmed or you want to follow along or you

spk_0 want everything written out for you, or you don't trust Drew and I, and you want to check our work,

spk_0 you can go to SolvedPotcast.com slash Resilience and download a free PDF guide.

spk_0 It's over 100 pages long.

spk_0 Has like 160, whatever.

spk_0 You're just looking at me with death in your eyes right now.

spk_0 So it's hundreds of citations.

spk_0 There we go.

spk_0 All of our studies and work is cited there.

spk_0 So you can go check that out for free.

spk_0 And then if you want to implement everything that you learn in this podcast,

spk_0 we classify them and put them up at our membership.

spk_0 It's at membership.solvedpodcast.com.

spk_0 You can go there and check it out.

spk_0 We have an amazing community there of a few thousand people who are

spk_0 working through all of this stuff every month with the podcast episode themselves.

spk_0 So that's a ton of fun.

spk_0 And finally, if you love the show, please leave us a review.

spk_0 Leave us a rating.

spk_0 I think last month we got up to number 12 on Spotify.

spk_0 So worldwide, which is huge.

spk_0 A plaz line, Andrew.

spk_0 Very proud of that.

spk_0 Let's see if we can do better this month.

spk_0 So if you're enjoying the show, please wherever you're listening to podcasts,

spk_0 leave us a rating, leave us a review, and be sure to follow us there.

spk_0 And finally, some exciting housekeeping news.

spk_0 Solved is going to twice a month.

spk_0 Yes, folks, it is true.

spk_0 Drew Bernie doesn't actually sleep.

spk_0 Or at least he's not going to anymore.

spk_0 Because we're going to be doing two of these every single month.

spk_0 Basically, the way we're still going to do it is where the first of every month is going to be

spk_0 kind of the large flagship episode.

spk_0 And then on the 15th of every month,

spk_0 we're going to do kind of either a smaller topic or a subtopic of the primary episode.

spk_0 So this month in two weeks, we are doing an episode on stoicism.

spk_0 Most people associate stoicism with resilience.

spk_0 It is one of the most famous philosophical frameworks

spk_0 often used to build resilience.

spk_0 So we will be doing multiple hours on stoicism and we will be joined by my good friend, Ryan Holiday.

spk_0 So be sure to subscribe to the podcast, make sure you're following on every platform

spk_0 so that you will be notified as soon as that episode drops.

spk_0 Like I said, that will be on October 15th.

spk_0 Now with that, Drew, do you anything you want to say before we get started?

spk_0 How resilient are you feeling in this moment?

spk_0 Well, okay, if you are listening to this, chances are like you maybe you're going through something

spk_0 right now.

spk_0 Right.

spk_0 Maybe a little bit.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 And so just to let's give you a little reassurance.

spk_0 Right.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 Resilience, like you don't have to be emotionless or stoic about this.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 We're not going to tell you to do that.

spk_0 It's normal to feel like a little bit wrecked.

spk_0 Yes.

spk_0 And you can still be resilient through that.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 So if you're going through something right now.

spk_0 I usually feel wrecked.

spk_0 Rehate exactly.

spk_0 But you can still work through that.

spk_0 And probably most importantly to it's trainable.

spk_0 Yes.

spk_0 It's not something that you have or you don't.

spk_0 Okay.

spk_0 So we're going to try to convince you of those things as we go through this.

spk_0 But I just want to put that out there right away to the left.

spk_0 This is the biggest thing about this topic.

spk_0 Resilience, not only is it trainable.

spk_0 I think I would argue that there's like a moral duty to train it.

spk_0 Yes.

spk_0 Within ourselves.

spk_0 Yes.

spk_0 And set within children and young people society.

spk_0 Event too.

spk_0 Yes.

spk_0 It actually kind of blows my mind that a lot of the stuff that's going to be in this

spk_0 episode is not more widely known or discussed or like taught in a school.

spk_0 Much less, you know, listen to on podcast.

spk_0 Right.

spk_0 So here we are.

spk_0 We got a lot to get into.

spk_0 Q the intro and we'll get started.

spk_0 All right.

spk_0 Drew, I want to start this off.

spk_0 I want to go back to 1914 where a man named Ernest Shackleton

spk_0 posted what has now become a world famous

spk_0 classified ad in the newspaper.

spk_0 And it read as follows.

spk_0 Men wanted for hazardous journey.

spk_0 Small wages bitter cold long months of complete darkness.

spk_0 Constant danger.

spk_0 Safe return doubtful.

spk_0 5,000 men applied.

spk_0 Posting.

spk_0 I don't know about you.

spk_0 Like we're hiring right now.

spk_0 I can I get 500 people to apply to anything.

spk_0 Much less 5,000.

spk_0

spk_0 Maybe you need to write an ad like that.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 Maybe the next job posting is going to be a hazardous journey.

spk_0 Small wages bitter cold long months of complete darkness.

spk_0 And we'll see who turns up for it.

spk_0 But of course, Ernest Shackleton was talking about one of his famous expeditions

spk_0 to the South Pole.

spk_0 So at the time, nobody had actually been to the South Pole.

spk_0 And there was a bit of a race among various explorers to be the first one to get there.

spk_0 Ernest Shackleton, unfortunately, very famously came within 20 miles

spk_0 of reaching the South Pole before being forced to turn back.

spk_0 And one of his previous expeditions.

spk_0 But this expedition, which I don't know if it was named at the time endurance

spk_0 or it was later called endurance,

spk_0 but it has gone on to become world famous in one of the great stories of resilience

spk_0 and world history.

spk_0 So Shackleton recruited 28 men.

spk_0 They set sail in January 1915 and they reached the shores of Antarctica.

spk_0 And pretty much immediately the ship got caught in ice flows of icebergs floating

spk_0 in one of the bays.

spk_0 And so the men had to get off the ship and basically wait and hope that the ice

spk_0 birds would recede and the ship would be freed and then they would be able to potentially leave

spk_0 again. They waited for 10 months.

spk_0 For 10 months, they sat as they watched their ship slowly get crushed by an iceberg,

spk_0 not knowing if they were ever going to be able to go home again.

spk_0 And finally, after 10 months, the ship was crushed.

spk_0 So stranded on Antarctica with basically no supplies, no way to get home,

spk_0 these men had to figure out what they were going to do to survive.

spk_0 So the ship sinks in November 1915,

spk_0 which is the beginning of summer down there.

spk_0 And so there's a small hope that maybe another expedition is going to come.

spk_0 And if the new expedition comes, they can catch sail, go home on that ship.

spk_0 So they wait five months.

spk_0 No expedition comes.

spk_0 After the five months are up, the summer ends and they look around and they realize,

spk_0 okay, we have to try to go for help.

spk_0 They create makeshift small boats out of the remains of their primary ship.

spk_0 They sail for 800 miles through some of the most treacherous waters on earth,

spk_0 full of icebergs and killer whales and sharks and storms.

spk_0 They survive hurricanes.

spk_0 They eventually arrive to an island where where shackles and takes five of his other men

spk_0 and they sail in a small 20-foot lifeboat for another 800 miles to where they finally reach a small

spk_0 deserted island on the south of South America.

spk_0 They climb an uncharted mountain because nobody's been to this island before.

spk_0 And it's from the top of that mountain that they're finally able to signal help from somebody.

spk_0 They get help, they get a ship, they go all the way back, they pick up all their men,

spk_0 after almost two year or deal of being stranded in Antarctica, every single man survives.

spk_0 Didn't lose a single one.

spk_0 Nobody died.

spk_0 That's incredible.

spk_0 Nobody died.

spk_0 Nobody killed each other.

spk_0 Nobody killed themselves.

spk_0 Everybody got home safe and sound.

spk_0 And as we go through this episode, we're going to use this as kind of a case study to unpack a

spk_0 lot of the concepts that we're going to talk about.

spk_0 And kind of the importance that I guess Shackleton intuitively understood from doing so many

spk_0 dangerous expeditions throughout his life, in certain rules or practices that he enforced on his

spk_0 men to make sure that everybody survived.

spk_0 Now, the key insight, I think, to take away at the start of this episode is that resilience is

spk_0 really, it's not what most people think it is.

spk_0 It's not about not feeling the pain.

spk_0 It's not about, as you said, being impervious to challenges or setbacks.

spk_0 It's feeling the pain and just being good at dealing with it.

spk_0 So if you look at the journal entries of a lot of Shackleton's men,

spk_0 they were absolutely despondent.

spk_0 In fact, Shackleton himself wrote many, many times that he thought they weren't going to make it.

spk_0 He thought they were going to die in Antarctica.

spk_0 So the point here is that resilience isn't about people who suppress their feelings.

spk_0 It's not about people who ignore their feelings.

spk_0 It's not people who are delusional and don't have feelings.

spk_0 Resilience is about people who feel their feelings very deeply,

spk_0 but they are able to act despite them in their best interests.

spk_0 They are not hijacked by their feelings.

spk_0 They are not consumed by their negative feelings.

spk_0 They don't let their thoughts and feelings dictate their actions to them.

spk_0 They dictate their actions to their thoughts and feelings.

spk_0 And it turns out that this is an incredibly powerful and valuable skill in life.

spk_0 And it also turns out that any of us can develop it and practice it and get better at it.

spk_0 So this episode is going to be structured a little bit differently than some of our previous

spk_0 episodes. As long time listeners know that most of our episodes, usually the front half is all

spk_0 about theory and definitions and the science and then the back half is all about implementation

spk_0 and practices and exercises.

spk_0 Things you can do to actually improve this area of your life.

spk_0 This episode is a little bit different because I think resilience is so action-based.

spk_0 There's not. It's kind of difficult to talk about it in a way without speaking about what behaviors

spk_0 or actions you should be doing.

spk_0 So the way we're going to break this episode down is that we're going to have three sections.

spk_0 We're going to have a biology section where we talk about the biology of resilience and how that

spk_0 manifests through our physical actions and behaviors.

spk_0 And we're going to talk about the mental practices and mindsets that you can adopt to become more

spk_0 resilient, both physically and mentally.

spk_0 And then finally, we're going to talk about social resilience and the importance of

spk_0 social networks, community, the people you hang out with, but also the resilience of the

spk_0 community and culture itself, which is an interesting twist.

spk_0 And then finally, at the end, we will do our usual 80-20 segment and we will talk about some

spk_0 of the hidden costs of being a highly resilient person.

spk_0 And this one's fun, Drew, because I did something a little bit unconventional for this episode.

spk_0 Usually when we prep for these episodes, we are just like buried, nose deep in books

spk_0 and research papers and going super, super hard on all of the psychological literature.

spk_0 I decided to actually do an experiential test.

spk_0 Wow, I'm excited to hear more about this because we haven't really talked about it.

spk_0 You and I haven't talked about it.

spk_0 We have not talked about it.

spk_0 I'm excited to hear about it.

spk_0 We have not talked about it.

spk_0 I think you're right.

spk_0 Probably one of the legitimate criticism is that we over in electrolyte stuff sometimes.

spk_0 So now we're putting the rubber to the pavement here.

spk_0 I like this.

spk_0 So for listeners, I signed up for an endurance race with basically no training.

spk_0 And I completed it.

spk_0 I will share much more about this later.

spk_0 It was intense.

spk_0 We'll just say that.

spk_0 But we actually made a YouTube video about it as well.

spk_0 It's on the channel for those of you who are watching on YouTube.

spk_0 But it was actually a lot of fun and it was cool to actually put a lot of this stuff in the

spk_0 practice myself.

spk_0 Because it is one thing to like, as you said, you and I are both at home in electrolyzing things.

spk_0 And it was really cool to like take some of the stuff that I've been reading about like did

spk_0 the week before and be like, okay, I got to train for this fucking thing.

spk_0 How can I adopt this mindset or this practice?

spk_0 To make sure that I don't die out there when the rubber hits the right.

spk_0 I'm excited to see what worked for you and what didn't too.

spk_0 That all this theory and putting it in practice, that's going to be an interesting thing to see too.

spk_0 So yeah, yeah, we'll have some interesting discussions around that.

spk_0 So cool.

spk_0 All right.

spk_0 So let's start out with the definition of resilience.

spk_0 And resilience is actually, I think there is a more interesting word than most people suspect.

spk_0 Generally speaking, when we do episodes on topics like the root meaning of the word is

spk_0 thousands of years old, it comes from Latin or Greek or something.

spk_0 And it basically kind of means what you would expect it to mean.

spk_0 Resilience is a little bit different.

spk_0 And a lot of ways it's a bit of a misnomer.

spk_0 So resilience made its way to English through French only in the 17th century.

spk_0 It comes from the verb, the Latin verb,

spk_0 resilient, which means literally to leap backwards, which you wouldn't assume that that means

spk_0 resilience. So what happened is that for centuries, resilience was actually used as a term in

spk_0 engineering. And it was used to describe something that a substance or a substrate that if you

spk_0 bent it, it would return to its original form.

spk_0 So if you're talking about steel rods or some sort of like fabric that like takes its

spk_0 reverse to its natural form when you put pressure on it, engineers would use the term

spk_0 resilience to indicate that this is a substance or some form of matter that would like

spk_0 hold its form through a lot of external stress.

spk_0 And examples like bridges too.

spk_0 Like yes, they would build bridges so they could sway in the wind.

spk_0 Yes.

spk_0 You know, like they're going great bridge, like 27 feet or something like that.

spk_0 It can sway one way or the other.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 That was described as resilient.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 So it didn't actually make its way into the psychological literature until the 1960s.

spk_0 When a psychologist by the name of Norman Garmeese was studying kids who honestly had every reason

spk_0 to be a total mass. We're talking about like parents with deep mental illness,

spk_0 orphans growing up in crack houses like you name it.

spk_0 Like name the worst circumstances that these kids were growing up in it.

spk_0 And interestingly what Garmeese noticed is that there was a small percentage of these children

spk_0 who seemed totally fine. Despite how fucked up their circumstances were around them,

spk_0 they still went to school.

spk_0 They still got good grades.

spk_0 They still seemed like mentally functional and they weren't completely collapsing from the

spk_0 external pressure around them.

spk_0 For example, he studied one boy who was 10 years old.

spk_0 His mom was in and out of psychiatric hospitals.

spk_0 Never knew his father.

spk_0 He was living well below the poverty line and he was totally holding it together.

spk_0 He was crushing school, taking care of himself, like literally packing his own lunches before

spk_0 he went to school every day.

spk_0 10 years old.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 Parents are not around making good grades, teachers like him, not misbehaving.

spk_0 And when Garmeese interviewed him, the boy talked about how sure he was sad,

spk_0 but he didn't see any reason for that to prevent him from doing what should have been done.

spk_0 So Garmeese was blown away by this phenomenon.

spk_0 He couldn't really believe it.

spk_0 These kids weren't really supposed to exist.

spk_0 And at the time, there wasn't really anything in the literature to describe

spk_0 what this phenomenon was.

spk_0 And so he went looking for a word.

spk_0 And the word that he landed on was resilience, which was bouncing back,

spk_0 or something that holds its form.

spk_0 Now what's interesting is that as we'll discover as we kind of go through this episode,

spk_0 is that resilience is a bit of a misnomer.

spk_0 It's not actually accurately describing what happens,

spk_0 because you're not actually bouncing back.

spk_0 When you suffer some sort of stress or external event or trauma,

spk_0 you're not getting back to baseline.

spk_0 People who we typically call resilient, what they're actually doing is that they are adapting

spk_0 to their external circumstances in a way that is highly functional.

spk_0 So they are finding a way to either leverage that event,

spk_0 or leverage the emotions, or adapt to the new thought patterns, or the new circumstances,

spk_0 in a way that is ultimately beneficial to themselves.

spk_0 And so I think probably a more accurate term that you could use,

spk_0 I mean, we could even probably call this podcast episode,

spk_0 is the more recent term from the scene Nicholas Taleib, which is anti-fragility,

spk_0 which is basically things that gain from stress or disorder.

spk_0 Because what we tend to see is that in most cases, not all cases, but in most cases,

spk_0 when resilient people go through stressful events or go through a challenge,

spk_0 not only do they bounce back to their baseline, but they actually improve.

spk_0 They get stronger. They get more adaptive to future challenges.

spk_0 They change in some way. It's not, you don't bounce back to what you were.

spk_0 Exactly. There's a transformation that happens consistently.

spk_0 And this is super, super important. And it's something that Garmezi,

spk_0 you could argue, missed at the time, but he called it resilience, and so we're left with the word

spk_0 resilience. For whatever it's worth, the American Psychological Association does define resilience

spk_0 as this more transformative form of dealing with setbacks, like they have kind of updated their

spk_0 definition beyond what Garmezi called it. It's a bit of a mouthful, this definition, but it's

spk_0 pulled from the APA website. They define it as resilience is the capacity to adapt well in the

spk_0 face of adversity, trauma, or significant stress, involving a dynamic process of successful adaptation

spk_0 rather than just bouncing back. It is not a fixed trait, but a developable ability to maintain

spk_0 or regain mental or emotional well-being by using the flexibility of one's thoughts, emotions,

spk_0 and behaviors to adjust to life's challenges. It's like fucking poetry.

spk_0 But there is that element of not just bouncing back, but acknowledge that right there in the

spk_0 definition. It's a specific technical term in psychology. It's something that I think,

spk_0 if you look at the early days in the psych literature, they kind of assume that it was an ability

spk_0 to maintain normality, but I think it's in the decades since research has shown that actually

spk_0 what's happening is what we classify as resilient people or just people who are highly

spk_0 adaptive, inflexible in dealing with setbacks, challenges. But I still think most people would

spk_0 think or they want resilience to be, I want to just get back to where I was. Why is that?

spk_0 We just get back to normal. That's safe. That's known. It's changing is unknown, and so it's

spk_0 there's its own form of scariness that comes with it. I also think what happens to is,

spk_0 if you look at somebody who is highly resilient, we'll talk a lot later about how resilience

spk_0 kind of operates a little bit like a muscle. It's like a muscle you strengthen within yourself.

spk_0 So if you imagine somebody with an extremely strong resilience muscle,

spk_0 somebody who's extremely adaptive to challenges and setback, from the outside, it looks like they are

spk_0 not just changing up phase. If you think about somebody like David Goggins, who I'm excited,

spk_0 because we finally have an episode where we get to talk about David Goggins, so I'm super excited.

spk_0 If you think about somebody like David Goggins running 100 miles, he makes it look effortless.

spk_0 He's such an absurdly resilient person. It appears effortless from the exterior,

spk_0 but that's only because his resilience muscle is so absurdly large that the struggle within him

spk_0 is imperceptible to the rest of us. I think some of it is a perceptual bias. If somebody is not

spk_0 externally suffering or changing dramatically, we just assume that you can see why Garmese

spk_0 thought it's like, he's just bouncing back to whatever normality was. But really, they're subtly

spk_0 changing. The last thing I want to say before we jump into the biology section is that,

spk_0 resilience is actually far more common than people realize. This is something that I actually

spk_0 consistently run into with readers and journalists and people that I talk to, especially in this day

spk_0 and age where trauma is such a buzzword, people assume that anybody who goes through a traumatic event

spk_0 is completely irrevocably fucked up from it and is going to have to go through years, if not

spk_0 decades of therapy and is going to be struggling for the rest of their life. It turns out the research

spk_0 shows that this is not the case. It actually shows that the majority of situations people do bounce

spk_0 back from extremely difficult events or traumatic events. There was one researcher named George

spk_0 Benano who ran a meta analysis on this and he came back estimating that as much as 75 to 85%

spk_0 of people eventually recover from extremely difficult or adverse events in their lives,

spk_0 the concept of being traumatized, it's actually a minority case for most people. I want to put a pen

spk_0 in this because when we come back to the psychological section, this is going to matter a lot. I definitely

spk_0 want to dig into this a little bit. This perception that trauma is debilitating because it actually

spk_0 matters quite a bit in terms of outcomes. Does that surprise you, though, too? The research findings

spk_0 that it's so common, was that surprising to you? Because I think there is a cultural,

spk_0 at least some strain running through, especially today's culture, people are just weak. We don't

spk_0 have, people are the crumble and trauma of this and anxiety is rampant. Is that surprising to you?

spk_0 It's not surprising to me. I mean, it maybe was surprising that it was that high, but I don't know.

spk_0 When I think about, okay, so if I think about all the traumatic events I've gone through in my life,

spk_0 think about all the traumatic events that people I love and care about have gone through in their

spk_0 lives, you quickly add up a list of a dozen, two dozen traumas right there. Then I think about all

spk_0 those people and we're all still pretty functional doing okay. If I think about the people in my

spk_0 own life and the things that they've gone through and the deaths and tragedies and misfortunes

spk_0 that have happened to the people that I care about and I see how they've handled it. I'm like,

spk_0 yeah, okay, yeah, 85% kind of checks out intuitively. I think if you spend all of your life on TikTok,

spk_0 right, yeah, those percentages probably get reversed, but that's probably just because of that's

spk_0 what the algorithm serves. There's a bias in it. But like I said, we're going to come back to this.

spk_0 Yes, the perception of this is actually critically important and we'll talk about the psychological

spk_0 sections. To kick off kind of the biological stuff, we're going to go through some of development,

spk_0 some genetics and then some of the like actual biology, what's going on your brain, your body,

spk_0 all that kind of stuff. But to kick this off, so the Swedish actually have a kind of focal wisdom

spk_0 around children, the different kinds of children that you interact with, okay. They have what they

spk_0 call dandelion children. And I'm going to try this musk ribbon. I'm sorry to our Swedish

spk_0 listeners. I tried on Google translate to them. I'm not going to get the pronunciation right. But

spk_0 what they call dandelion children, right? Okay. Dandelions as you know, like they'll grow anywhere,

spk_0 cracks as you met, terrible soil, dry conditions, any of that. They'll grow anywhere. They seem to

spk_0 thrive anywhere. Anybody owns a home. There's dandelions all over your lawn. Okay, great. They

spk_0 survive. They adapt. They push through terrible conditions. Okay. So they have these dandelion

spk_0 children, who they characterize like that. Very similar. You throw anything out of them. They seem

spk_0 to be just fine. Then they have what they call orchid children too. So any gardeners out there have

spk_0 ever tried to grow orchids, right? I don't know how many of those. I don't know. Mark have you ever

spk_0 tried to grow orchids? You know me and orchids. Yes. Can't get enough of them. The Swedish word to

spk_0 keep butchering this is orchid to barn. That's got to be so off. I appreciate you trying. That's

spk_0 got to be so off. I'm so sorry. I'm sure our listeners appreciate you trying orchids.

spk_0 Orgids though, they're fragile. They need like perfect conditions. They need good quality soil. They

spk_0 need the right amount, not too much water, not too little water. They need the right nutrients. They

spk_0 need the right amount of sunlight. All of that, right? They need the perfect condition. But when they do

spk_0 have those perfect conditions, you get a very beautiful, beautiful plant out of this and they seem

spk_0 to thrive and they'll be fine in the long term, right? So the Swedes have had this folk wisdom

spk_0 around kids and people in general for a very long time. They've always treated it as like, okay,

spk_0 you need to treat these two types of children differently. Like dandelions, you can throw whatever

spk_0 out of orchids. They need a little different attention, okay? What just folk was them, whatever. Well,

spk_0 the research you've already brought up by George Bonanno and also later by Thomas Boyce and Bruce

spk_0 Ellis confirmed a lot of what you've already brought up as well. About 70 to 80% of kids,

spk_0 so some degree of being a dandelion, there's a continuum kind of, but they're resilient in most

spk_0 situations. You throw anything out of them, they'll adapt, they'll work through it, they'll figure it

spk_0 out. That other 20 to 30% though seem to be the orchids. I like that you wore your flower shirt to

spk_0 match our orchid dandelion. I got some color. Yeah, yeah. One of the critiques I get is I wear too

spk_0 black. So here we are. And talking about orchids. Talking about orchids. The thing though,

spk_0 the research along with this like Swedish folk was them and the research that came to kind of

spk_0 confirm it was that kind of changed the way we thought about resilience. It wasn't so much that

spk_0 these orchid children were like their week and they're all, you know, they get sick really easily

spk_0 or they crumble under stress or you put them in the tiny, just a little bit of adversity and they

spk_0 collapse on themselves, right? It was more that resilience is really more about fit.

spk_0 It's fit for your environment. If you are one of these orchid kids, you can actually do very,

spk_0 very well given the right circumstances, given the right support, given the right environment,

spk_0 and you can thrive and you can even find some form of resilience. So it wasn't just about like,

spk_0 all these kids are weak. Dr. Thomas Boyce's research in Bruce Ellis, they came up with this idea of

spk_0 the biological sensitivity to context. Okay, there's some genetic factors, some

spk_0 just biological underpinnings that we have that make us either more sensitive to all environments

spk_0 or just more resilient to any environments. Okay, the dandelions and the orchids.

spk_0 What they've kind of come to conclude though is that these like ultra-sensitive

spk_0 kids and people aren't, they're not weak, but they're just ultra-sensitive. They're malleable

spk_0 to their surrounding environments. And so they just need a different set of

spk_0 environmental factors that will help them thrive. This was interesting. So in preparation for this,

spk_0 we've already brought David Goggins, right? I read his newest book, so it never finished.

spk_0 Yeah. Right? I also read Ross Ejli, his book called The Art of Resilience. Now, Ross Ejli was

spk_0 the guy who he swam around Great Britain. It took him like 150 some days to do this. He never

spk_0 stepped foot online. He had a boat that followed him around and he would rest on the boat. But he never

spk_0 stepped foot online for like over 150 some days. When you read their stories, you know, you might know

spk_0 David Goggins' story. He came from abuse of household, alcoholic father, a black kid growing up in

spk_0 rural Indiana with a clan, a Ku Klux Klan chapter, like 10 miles away, severe racism. Ross Ejli grew

spk_0 up in Great Britain, had a very good relationship with his father, was very educated, went into sports

spk_0 science, gets really into the like nitty-gritty of sports science. These two men are incredibly

spk_0 resilient. But I would argue that Goggins is more of a day in the lion and Ross Ejli is more of

spk_0 an orchid. He needed like the right set of circumstances. If you look at Ross Ejli, he's a huge,

spk_0 jack dude, like huge, huge. So you wouldn't say, oh, this is an orchid or anything like that. But

spk_0 when you listen to him talk, I've heard him on podcasts and stuff like that. He's got a smile on his

spk_0 face. You know, he's just smiling while he's talking the whole time and he's very much, and he's

spk_0 because if you are one of those people who thinks you're not resilient, it probably is just like

spk_0 an environmental fit thing. And finding that environment for you is going to be key in developing

spk_0 more resilient habits and more resilient mindset as well. This also presents though an evolutionary

spk_0 puzzle, right? So you think, think about this, why would Mother Nature create these orchids?

spk_0 Why would Mother Nature create orchids? Both the literal orchids and orchid children and people.

spk_0 How would being more sensitive and more, apparently from the outside, weak, quote unquote,

spk_0 how is that evolutionary adaptive in an evolutionary way anyway? It really comes down to these orchids.

spk_0 They're not evolutionary errors as it turns out. You've actually kind of written about this before,

spk_0 but the key really is malleability in these. What looks like resilience and what Bruce Ellis and

spk_0 Thomas Boyce said about these resilient kids is they might just look resilient because they're not

spk_0 that malleable. You know, you throw everything at them and they're fine. They can work through it,

spk_0 they can, whatever. These more, the orchid kids are more malleable. They're more sensitive to their

spk_0 environments, right? I mean, I could see it being as like an evolutionary high-risk, high reward.

spk_0 Exactly. That's exactly where it is. Like the dandelions are, they're going to be fine no matter

spk_0 what happens. But we should probably have some part of the gene pool that thrives in good conditions.

spk_0 But also is a little bit more fragile and harsh conditions. That's exactly what the theory that

spk_0 they've formulated over the years is that this is kind of Mother Nature's way of taking a high-risk,

spk_0 high-reward bet on the species. There's plenty of examples to go around for this. I mean,

spk_0 talking about evolution, Darwin himself was probably, it was considered an orchid.

spk_0 What a pussy. Yeah, just a huge whooist, right? Actually, at the time, he went to medical school and

spk_0 he couldn't hack it because he would go into these operating rooms. This is before anesthesia.

spk_0 And he just couldn't stand the pain that people have to go through to sustain an operation.

spk_0 I've read some of Darwin's journals. He was a little emo for sure. He was. He was. He was.

spk_0 watched two surgeries and he was like, I'm out. And then his father was just like your

spk_0 a failure, your weak. He just wanted to go look at beetles. He was one of those nerd kids.

spk_0 Sure. Yeah, huge dork. But given the right circumstances, he had this. He was a very empathetic

spk_0 person. He was very attuned to emotions and social interaction. And I think that's probably

spk_0 exactly what led him to kind of make these connections between animals and humans, right?

spk_0 Was that sensitivity and that, yeah, a perceptiveness that he had, yeah.

spk_0 I think that's a good point to raise here. It's funny because the whole time I was reading about

spk_0 this, the Danny Lennon and orchid thing, like I couldn't stop thinking about my wife and I.

spk_0 Yeah. And my wife is very much an orchid. Like she is very sensitive to the environment.

spk_0 She's in. The house has to be like perfectly clean all the time. If anything is out of order,

spk_0 she gets like very upset. If the weather is slightly bad, she gets upset. And I'm very much a

spk_0 Danny Lennon. I spent multiple years in my life, essentially living on a couch. I built my first

spk_0 business on a laptop, laying in bed. Like I didn't really care where I was. I was living in

spk_0 their world countries. I was eating terrible food every day. I didn't care. I tend to be very

spk_0 happy whatever environment I'm in. Or it's very easy for me to be happy in whatever environment I'm in.

spk_0 I, it's easy for me to like shut things out and just focus on whatever I need to focus on.

spk_0 Whereas she is like always perturbed by just like disturbances that are going on.

spk_0 The flip side of that is that she has some incredible talents that I simply don't have.

spk_0 She has an eye for detail that I don't have. She has an understanding of like design and

spk_0 you know what makes a good living room or why a window was installed in correct, like she can

spk_0 just look at it and know within two seconds. And I'm like completely clueless. And so it is

spk_0 again to kind of come back to that. It's almost like unfair to say that they're less resilient.

spk_0 Right. It's just it's a, as you were saying, it's a different type of resilience.

spk_0 Like I think she gets annoyed with more stuff than me, but like she also puts up with way more

spk_0 shit. Like as a result, she puts up with way more stress and shit that I ever put up with. So

spk_0 in a way, in some ways, I feel like she's more resilient. Right. And I mean, it's not just,

spk_0 not just your wife and not just Charles Darwin. But there's like so many examples of this throughout

spk_0 history too. And some of them that I came up with were like William James, the father of psychology.

spk_0 Yeah. Right. He made a pact with himself that he was going to kill himself in a year if he

spk_0 didn't kind of get his shit together basically. And he did. And then he founded modern psychology.

spk_0 What we think of a psychology. He also had an experience of he was in medical school. And

spk_0 the first time he saw a cadaver, he was like, he's like, I can't do this. Yeah. Yeah. And but he

spk_0 was a brilliant, brilliant person. He just needed again, that right environment. Yeah.

spk_0 Two Henry David throw. I guess he was legend is he was actually kind of emo too.

spk_0 He was pretty good story on throw even his best friend Ralph Aldo Emerson was like, yeah,

spk_0 he's like to get us together. Yeah. Emily Dickinson too. She was like a shy reclusive.

spk_0 Yes. Kind of a neurotic person who really, I mean, she died in, in, in obscurity. Yeah.

spk_0 But was later found out, oh, she was a brilliant. She stayed home. She wrote poetry.

spk_0 And that was her environment that she needed for that. So Isaac Newton.

spk_0 I feel like a lot of brilliant artists are like kind of associated with orchid

spk_0 type personalities. And I feel like their art is an adaptive reaction to how sensitive they are

spk_0 to all the stimulus. Right. It's part of their way of coping with everything.

spk_0 And that's kind of the point I want to make. That's why I'm spending so much time on this is

spk_0 because I think the kind of person who's going to be listening or watching this is probably going

spk_0 to think that I'm not resilient. And it's like, well, what is resilience? First of all,

spk_0 and maybe you just don't have the right tools in the right environment to consider yourself

spk_0 resilient or to engage more resilient acts. And so I, the point though is that again,

spk_0 kind of nature has preserved this orchid style because it is a high risk high reward.

spk_0 phenotype in the population. And it's a matter of finding the right fit for you. It's a matter of

spk_0 finding the right tools, the right environment. And, and then that allows you to be more resilient

spk_0 in your own way. So again, go back to that Goggins versus actually there's different kinds of resilience.

spk_0 There's different ways to approach it. And we'll talk a whole bunch about Goggins. I'm sure at some

spk_0 point, but there isn't just this one like, stay hard. Yeah, yeah, yeah, necessarily that's one

spk_0 form of resilience. Yes, it might work for you. Yes, I can see why it works for Goggins.

spk_0 That's not the only way to do. I got an example coming up that I think is definitely an orchid

spk_0 example of extreme physical resilience that I'll talk about later.

spk_0 Ah, awesome. Awesome. All right. I'm excited for this. There are, there's been several studies

spk_0 to around this from the genetic side too. So early genetic behavioral genetic stuff,

spk_0 appointed to these like, oh, there's, there's these kind of like high risk genes, right?

spk_0 That you saw all the time. So one of them was like the serotonin transport of gene. Serotonin,

spk_0 it's in your brain. It's all of your body actually. It's in your brain. It regulates mood.

spk_0 It's implicated in depression, anxiety, these sorts of things, right? So the early, early

spk_0 antidepressants and anti-anxiety meds targeted this system and still do so people still get a lot

spk_0 of benefit from them. But early on when it was thought I was like, oh, if you have this one type,

spk_0 one one type of this gene, that you're more susceptible to depression, that you're more susceptible

spk_0 to mental illness in some way, right? Again, though, what they later came back and found was if it's

spk_0 this environmental fit thing, if you have these genes that are, quote unquote, kind of like high

spk_0 susceptibility or high risk genes, no, it's actually in a, in the right environment, you're fine.

spk_0 The same thing with like the dopamine receptor gene. This one when it came out, it was kind of

spk_0 hailed as the, oh, it's the ADHD gene, right? Again, that's just not how it worked. If you have this

spk_0 gene, oh, you have a ADHD, but as you know, as a person with ADHD and the right environment,

spk_0 it doesn't matter if you have this gene or not, it's actually, it could even be a benefit in some way.

spk_0 How would you define a good environment? Right. Okay. So that was part of the, like what voice,

spk_0 Thomas Boyce found was that you had, even if you had like, let's say, socioeconomic stress or

spk_0 something like that, right? You at least had the social support around you. It could be a family

spk_0 member, it could be a teacher, it could be friends of some port. There was usually some sort of

spk_0 social support that you could lean on, which we're going to see that's going to be a recurring theme

spk_0 as well. That was actually the biggest one. That's one of the biggest factors that they have

spk_0 that they show. Also, just things like access to good nutrition, access to good,

spk_0 clean water, like those sorts of things are obviously going to help quite a bit as well.

spk_0 By safety as well. Safety if you're living in it. Yeah. And if you aren't really though,

spk_0 that the social support behind all of that was really one of the key factors that they found.

spk_0 Schools, families, social networks, those sorts of things. Yeah.

spk_0 Let's get into a little bit more of the biology and the physiology of this.

spk_0 From your brain to your gut, even to your heart, resilience, it's not just mental,

spk_0 it's actually deeply biological. What if I told you that there was a resilience engine?

spk_0 Right in the middle of your brain. To chew. Yeah, that's right.

spk_0 To write in the middle of your brain. And just like an engine in a car, you can fuel it,

spk_0 you can tune it up. You also have to maintain it as well. And if you do so, you can get that thing

spk_0 kind of like blasting on all cylinders. Okay. There is such an engine. Okay. And it's actually the

spk_0 anterior single cortex. Specifically, the anterior medial stimuli cortex is really where a lot of

spk_0 action seems to be when it comes to clarifying that. No problem. I don't want to get too

spk_0 far down. I was so confused which core. I'm going to get an angular cortex. It was.

spk_0 There is a lot of times when we do this, I'm like, so what? You know, like the

spk_0 biology, I'm like, so what? This part of the brain does it like so what? But this is actually

spk_0 kind of cool. And I think this is actually there's there's a little bit of so whatness to it,

spk_0 but it's actually just kind of interesting as well. All right. This this region, the anterior

spk_0 your singulate cortex is specifically the anterior medial singulate cortex seems to be very,

spk_0 very involved in what we would call what we're calling resilience now is basically energy allocation,

spk_0 deciding on whether you should push through or pull back. It's kind of a hub for whether or not you

spk_0 stay in the fight. Right. And it can be trained. There's differences between people who are more

spk_0 resilient and more not as we'll see. And it's it's actually pretty interesting. The core functions

spk_0 of this the anterior medial singulate cortex predicts outcomes. Okay. So this is going to be a

spk_0 painful or rewarding outcome. Calculates cost versus value. So effort versus return.

spk_0 Nice. That and resilience as well. It monitors the body. So it's it's the where it's positioned

spk_0 in all the connections it has. It's like it's it's connected to sensory. It's connected to motor.

spk_0 It's connected to your prefrontal cortex. So decision making. It's connected to memory.

spk_0 It's connected to your brain stem for energy allocation. Like it's just this huge hub for

spk_0 integrating all of this different information. Right. Adjust your expectations as well. So

spk_0 allocates energy based on what you what you think is going to happen. Right. Perhaps the body

spk_0 for action. So it regulates your helps regulate blood pressure your heart rate arousal states all

spk_0 of that. And then it's really is like I said, it's that top down regulator integrating all of this

spk_0 information. And then kind of throwing out a okay, keep going or okay, quit. So that's resilience.

spk_0 Right. And it seems to really be the hub for that. What happens with in the anterior meter,

spk_0 a little singular cortex and more resilient people. What what appears to happen anyway is that

spk_0 these people are downplaying the cost of the effort that they need to get through whatever

spk_0 difficult situation they're going through. And also at the same time, they're overvaluing the

spk_0 reward at the end of that. This is the story of my life. It's the it absolutely is. And when you look

spk_0 I feel like I feel like this is every entrepreneur who's 100% right. And so and there's a genetic

spk_0 basis to it. We talked a little bit about genetics already. There's a little bit of a genetic

spk_0 basis to it. But what they found and this is the fascinating part is that people who engage in

spk_0 things, especially difficult things, things you don't want to do particularly. There's there's

spk_0 both a structural and a functional difference in this part of your brain. Interesting. It's

spk_0 fascinating. Absolutely fascinating. So there's more gray matter. So there's just more more

spk_0 cells there basically. And there's more functional connectivity with different parts of the brain.

spk_0 Actually, it's kind of interesting too. There's more functional connectivity in the

spk_0 Dorsolateral Prefernal Cortex. You're welcome. Which is, which is it's a part of your brain.

spk_0 It's like executive functioning basically. Yes. Okay. So in more resilient people, there's a stronger

spk_0 connection between these two brain regions. Okay. And less resilient people, there's a stronger

spk_0 connection to your motor cortex, which they kind of think it's like, okay, just quit. Just

spk_0 quit. Just stop. Yeah. Just give it a shot. Right here. So just it's a fascinating little area of

spk_0 a brain that it's been implicated in all sorts of things. I just there was just a study that came out

spk_0 that this region is very important what they call super-agers. So people when they're older,

spk_0 there's a specific definition is really around memory. So if you're 80 years old and you have

spk_0 the memory of a 50 year old, they call you a super-agure. Okay. It's very specific. But this part of

spk_0 their brain is it's thicker and there's more connectivity there. They could it's completely

spk_0 independent of a lot of different factors like lifestyle factors, although those do influence this

spk_0 part of your brain. You know, whether you exercise a lot, whether when you eat or you drink or not,

spk_0 all these kind of things, there's one thing and I'm going to come I'm just going to throw this

spk_0 out there now and we'll keep coming back to it. Okay. Do you want to guess what one thing predicts

spk_0 how well this part of your brain functions at 80 years old? So I don't know, but I feel like

spk_0 I've done enough research and I'm going to cheat a little bit because I'm just knowing everything

spk_0 I know about human nature. I'm going to say socialize. Yeah. Yeah. So it's going to just

spk_0 if there is a resilience muscle, would this be it? I think so. Okay. I think the evidence is

spk_0 starting to point more and more towards this. There's even some people who are hypothesizing that

spk_0 this is like the part of the brain that's like this is this gives you the will to live, the will,

spk_0 the person not just the persevere, but like this is where the will to live comes from even too. So

spk_0 like right down to the very bare bones of resilience, are you going to live or die? This is like

spk_0 very, very instrumental part of the brain. Wow. There's a lot of things that the anterior

spk_0 single-it cortex does. The single-it cortex in general is a it's a big part of your the middle

spk_0 part of your brain. Yeah. There's a lot of things that it does, but this part in particular

spk_0 really seems to be involved in that. Crazy. Yeah. So there are and there are things you can do.

spk_0 Okay. So it's it is a muscle like we said. It's a muscle you can work out. There are things you

spk_0 can do to train your resilience brain muscle. One of those is yes, it is the social connection.

spk_0 Like I said, aerobic exercise though too. It does. We bring this up in every episode. I know

spk_0 we do. We're going to talk about nutrition. We're going to talk about exercise. We're going to

spk_0 talk about sleep. Obviously, things this one though, I just thought was crazy because people who

spk_0 do exercise more, they have bigger anterior single-it cortex, cortices, specifically anterior

spk_0 medial single-it cortex is is higher density of gray matter, more functional connectivity.

spk_0 You could I guess and they've they've shown to it's not it can grow over time even in this.

spk_0 There's some evidence to suggest that as well. So it's not just like people who have this

spk_0 brain area are more likely to exercise. That probably is true, but it's a it's a two-way street

spk_0 here as well. I think what that is is going back to you're engaging in something that's unpleasant.

spk_0 Yep. More and more and that works as part of the brain out and it it works out your resilience

spk_0 muscle basically. I've always thought there's these things you can do to change your brain or whatever.

spk_0 So what kind of but at the same time too, this is really interesting because there's like the

spk_0 biological reflects the psychological in this case and vice versa. So that's pretty amazing.

spk_0 So a Robic exercise specifically more so what I found is a Robic, but I'm sure an aerobic

spk_0 exercise. I actually wouldn't be surprised if it was more aerobic and and I this is just my pet

spk_0 hair brain theory, but as somebody who's done a lot of anaerobic exercise and a lot of aerobic

spk_0 exercise, the the challenge or the experience is quite different. You know, like if if I imagine

spk_0 if you imagine say going for a max deadlift or a max squat or something, it is a singular moment.

spk_0 It is like a very adrenaline-fueured moment and you do need a lot of courage and stamina and

spk_0 resilience in that moment, but it's over in like five seconds it's over. Whereas let's say you're

spk_0 trying to PR in a half marathon. Dude, you are suffering for like 45 minutes. It's 45 minutes of

spk_0 nonstop. Can I stop now? Yeah, I want to stop. This fucking sucks. Can I stop now? You know,

spk_0 and you have to like keep battling your brain over a very long period of time. And so it actually

spk_0 wouldn't surprise me. If there again, like it's that's I think that's a big takeaway to just for

spk_0 resilience in general. It's like doing the hard thing kind of 80% of the time is better than doing

spk_0 the impossible thing wants that 100%. Right. Yeah. So I will get into that later. Yeah. Yeah.

spk_0 That's a cute stress versus chronic stress is another way to look at that. And

spk_0 coincidentally, the best way to sustain a cute stress is to train yourself on a chronic stress.

spk_0 Right. In many ways. Absolutely. And just like, you know, with with marathon training too,

spk_0 the way you get faster is you run slower for longer periods. For a longer period of time.

spk_0 Right. Yeah. Right. So again, there's a reflection there. But yeah. So okay, exercise is one of those

spk_0 challenging your mind too. You know, they do a lot like old people. Oh, you should be

spk_0 crossword puzzles and stuff like that. Well, I mean, just engaging in kind of the higher level

spk_0 cognitive tasks, you know, reading, writing, strategy games, that kind of thing. It can.

spk_0 Because again, it's that small kind of exercising and working out that resilience muscle in your brain.

spk_0 Yeah. The same type of thing. So if there is a resilience muscle in your brain, this is it.

spk_0 And it is trainable. Sweet. We found it. We did find it. That's kind of the brain side of it. There

spk_0 are more brain regions involved. But that I thought was pretty cool that there is actual muscle.

spk_0 It is cool in the brain that we can work out. Super awesome. Moving more should like the body

spk_0 kind of stuff though, there's this whole orchestra of biology that influences your resilience

spk_0 and your aptitude for resilience. One of those is like your HPA axis, okay, your hypothalamic

spk_0 pituitary adrenal axis. This is basically the backbone of the stress system in your brain,

spk_0 especially with hormones, okay, stressful event happens, your brain registers it, it sends out a

spk_0 little signal to the rest of your body and then your body is flooded with stress hormones, okay.

spk_0 The normal way this works in, you know, in our evolutionary past, that was supposed to work

spk_0 ideally was you have an acute stressor, you deal with it, and then you're over it and you come

spk_0 back down, okay. And what they find is in resilient people, that's kind of what happens. They have a

spk_0 very adaptive stress response. So again, it's not just this like you don't feel things, it's like,

spk_0 yeah, you actually feel things, you respond to them and you've responded them flexibly. And then

spk_0 you're able to come back down to what they call baseline in this situation, right. So your stress

spk_0 hormone spike, your pupils dilate, your attention is very, very focused, your heart rate rises,

spk_0 you deal with whatever's in front of you. Then when it's over, you come back down, okay. Most people

spk_0 are like this again, it's like that 50, 60, 70% of people navigate this pretty well and they have

spk_0 these profiles. But there are other people who you can be either too reactive, where you have this

spk_0 very high stress response and then you don't come back down, or you get the opposite end of this

spk_0 to where it's very blunted and you don't, you don't have a very like adaptive stress response to

spk_0 it at all. So again, that's not a, that's not a, like a mark of a healthy stress response is not

spk_0 having a stress stress response. This is what we're going to see over and over again, both psychologically

spk_0 physiologically, it's flexibility in your response to any adverse environments or situations

spk_0 in your environment is going on, okay. With the HPA axis, this is also a system you can train as well,

spk_0 though. Meditation actually helps a lot with your, specifically with recovery.

spk_0 So that's why people see meditation as like a stress relief.

spk_0 Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. So it's more about recovery and coming back down to baseline with that.

spk_0 Therapies like CBT, which we'll get into later a little bit. Again, exercise, nutrition, and sleep.

spk_0 God, true. I know, I know. This was one thing I just don't, I'll get into this man.

spk_0 We'll see what's going on right now. Let me get into the next thing too because it's heart rate

spk_0 variability. Very related as well, okay. Heart rate variability, it's the measure of how much

spk_0 variation, how much time there is between your heartbeat, between each of your heartbeats.

spk_0 And what they find is that more resilient people, both psychologically, biologically,

spk_0 they have a higher variability in their heart rates, which seems a little counterintuitive.

spk_0 I've always wondered why this is. Okay. So I actually don't know. Again, it's the

spk_0 flexibility. Okay. It's a flexibility. It's your ability to adapt. It's not your ability to

spk_0 stay strong through interest. It's the flexibility. Can you respond to your environment appropriately,

spk_0 quickly, and then get back to normal quickly as well? That's the thread through all of this that I've

spk_0 found. Anyway, your HBA axis, even in the brain too. Physical flexibility, cognitive flexibility,

spk_0 emotional flexibility, social, social flexibility. It's going to show up over and over and over again.

spk_0 It represents that high, high variable heart rate. It represents an efficient toggling

spk_0 kind of between stressful responses and just a normal resting response as well. It's a healthy

spk_0 system that can navigate between those two quickly and efficiently without doing too much damage.

spk_0 Otherwise, okay. This is also trainable as well. Breathing exercises, resonance breathing,

spk_0 aerobic exercise again, meditation again. Yoga is a really good one too. I've noticed this. I've

spk_0 been doing yoga for a while now too. I've really noticed with my heart rate. I get more heart rate

spk_0 variability during both during yoga, but then after as well for like a few hours after I'll even see

spk_0 that as well when I do monitor it. It's so interesting to hear this because I've worn biotrackers

spk_0 or I've got a garment on now. I've used Apple Watches. I've used a bunch of stuff. My wife

spk_0 wears an aura ring. They always show you HRV and that seems to be that's kind of like the primary

spk_0 metric that they focus on most of these biotracking devices. But it's always framed in terms of

spk_0 I guess exercise recovery. So you do a big workout the next day. Your HRV is low and that

spk_0 your little thing tells you like, oh, you should rest today or you today's a recovery day.

spk_0 I always thought in those terms, but it is interesting because over the years I have noticed

spk_0 a bunch of these other things. If I don't sleep well, my HRV is crap. If I eat a bunch of garbage

spk_0 one night, my HRV is crap. Let's say I have a huge fight with a family member or something terrible

spk_0 happens and I'm like really upset about it. My HRV is crap. I never understood why though.

spk_0 Like I never saw the through line between all these things. Think about somebody who

spk_0 doesn't exercise, doesn't get out, doesn't move their body, doesn't really take care of

spk_0 themselves. Their heart rate is pretty much the same all the time, right? They're sedentary.

spk_0 Yes, true. They're not moving around. They're not able to. They're not working out just like

spk_0 you're not working out of muscle. You're not working out your heart muscle.

spk_0 I eat there. Interesting. So heart rate variability is very much, it's a reflection of how adaptive

spk_0 you are from a physiological standpoint too and reflects in your psychology as well as we'll get

spk_0 into the more you know. So that's the more you know right there. So there's actually one nerve

spk_0 in your body that acts like a reset button for your entire nervous system. It's called the Vegas

spk_0 nerve. You might have heard of it. And learning to activate it can mean the difference between panic and

spk_0 calm. So the Vegas nerve is part of the parasympathetic nervous system. This is the rest

spk_0 and digest part of your nervous system. This calms you down, keeps you in homeostasis, keeps you calm.

spk_0 It's kind of a super highway between the mind and body connection. And there's certain things we can

spk_0 do to kind of manipulate it and to use it to our advantage and calm us down when we are facing

spk_0 stressful events. So as someone who lives on the west side of LA, there are a lot of

spk_0 beautiful spirit crystal people that talk about their Vegas nerves. I'm on the edge of my seat right

spk_0 now. Like, is this a thing? I know. I know. I want to bring this up. This is a thing. I want to

spk_0 kind of thought that this is baloney or not baloney, but just like it's like, oh, you're going to make

spk_0 me do some breathing exercises. So like vagal tone, like gets higher or whatever. Like, yes,

spk_0 that does sound crazy. But the more I looked into this, the more I'm like, oh, okay, this actually

spk_0 does make a lot of sense. And I've always kind of been like, oh, don't give me breathing exercises,

spk_0 don't give me cold plunges, don't give me all this stuff to like improve my vagal tone or whatever

spk_0 it is. This is more of the, but though, like on the acute regulation side of talking about,

spk_0 not more the long-term chronic stuff. Okay. You know, we talked about the emotions episode when

spk_0 you're hijacked. Right. Like panic attack or just like super emotional stuff. Just line off the

spk_0 handle. Yes. This actually, like, there's some signs behind this. Got you. Okay. It's bastardized by

spk_0 West LA. I would agree. Like all the West LA. As many as many good legit things are. Yes. So,

spk_0 okay. So it's not the sort of thing where you just like decide to cozy into your meditation

spk_0 corner on the Thursday night and be like, I'm going to stimulate my vagus nerve tonight. Like,

spk_0 it's more of a crisis management type thing. That's how I would use it. That's how I think is the

spk_0 most adaptive way to do this. Okay. Yeah. I would say so. Okay. So I'll hide what they call a

spk_0 high vagal tone, which is just like a fancy way of saying high vagal functioning. By the way,

spk_0 sorry, interrupt you. I have so many things in my section that I'm like, I can't believe this

spk_0 is fucking true. Like, there's so much more shit on this episode that I'm like, I have

spk_0 shot on this idea for so many years. And it turns out it's actually useful. God damn it. I wanted to

spk_0 bring this up. Yeah. So there's this is going to be a running theme today. Yeah.

spk_0 High vagal tone. Again, it's just a way to to characterize the quality of your vagus nerve and how

spk_0 well it's functioning. Okay. If you are able to train it, you get better stress recovery. There's

spk_0 lower inflammation throughout your body. So lower incidences of arthritis and just better emotion

spk_0 regulation, which is really what we're going for here with the resilience part. And again,

spk_0 it's this is more on the acute side. Okay. You can train this by slow exhale breathing. So one

spk_0 thing way I've done it before anyway is like I'll inhale for I think I do a count of three and

spk_0 exhale for a count of six. Okay. That signals to your your body, your body, your vagus nerve

spk_0 really that you're safe. Yeah. If you can spend more time exhaling, it's like, okay, instead of

spk_0 having to take in more air, you're signaling your body, I'm safe. I'm good. I calm down.

spk_0 This is sometimes sometimes called box breathing. Box breathing. And there's so many different.

spk_0 It's so funny because it's one of these things. Tons of variations. Yeah. The one that I learned

spk_0 was 478. So it's breathing for four, hold for seven, exhale for eight. I've heard 444, I've heard

spk_0 of 888. I think Hubertman has this like double inhale thing that he talks about. Yeah.

spk_0 It's all the same shit. Yeah. It's basically the same stuff like the exact seconds. I don't

spk_0 think matter a ton. I mean, there might be like marginal benefits for holding your breath for

spk_0 five seconds instead of four or breathing out for eight instead of seven or whatever. But like

spk_0 ultimately, the principle seems to be spend more time exhaling than inhaling. Yes. And it will

spk_0 forcibly call me down. And by the way, if you've ever been around somebody who is having a panic attack,

spk_0 this shit is magic. Like it actually solves it within a minute or two. Yeah. It does. It's crazy.

spk_0 Yeah. It's crazy. It really is. Also too, you mentioned Hubertman there. He has this non-sleep,

spk_0 deep rest protocol that I think is very much. It's also aims to calm down the vagus nerve quite a bit.

spk_0 I use this because I don't get very good sleep. And like even I was on a plane the other day and I

spk_0 hadn't had good sleep the other night. And I just I pop that on. He's got it's on Spotify. Good.

spk_0 Check it out. I pop that on and it's like it's vagal nerve like calming. It's medicine for that

spk_0 for sure. Nice. So Drew Bernie looking for a woman with a large interior medial singular cortex

spk_0 and a well-trained vagus nerve. That's right. Ladies reach out. He is single and ready to mingle.

spk_0 There's so the slow exhale breathing. There's there's that humming and singing. You can do

spk_0 do some humming and singing. Well actually like if you're stimulus to vagus nerve. Yes.

spk_0 Stimulus to vagus nerve. Cold exposure. There is some some benefit from that as well.

spk_0 Gargling as well. You can do some like you know. Yeah. That's surprise. Can can help the singing. I'm

spk_0 generally. Yeah. Yeah. People use that for mood regulation just in general. But yeah. I get that.

spk_0 The gargling is a little little strange. Okay. That's enough on the vagus nerve. We won't get

spk_0 we won't get going on that too much. There's lots of stuff out there about there. Okay. Next one

spk_0 though. The bacteria in your stomach can shape your mood. It can shape your energy and even your

spk_0 resilience as well too. Okay. Again this one. This is one of those things that you've seen it forever

spk_0 right? The last like decade has kind of been in the zeitgeist for sure. I mean it sounds like

spk_0 your full of shit Drew. That's what they come for. That's why that's why you're here folks.

spk_0 There are something like a hundred trillion bacteria in your stomach. A hundred trillion. Something

spk_0 like a hundred trillion. Yeah. Okay. And your gut also produces a lot of neurotransmitters as well.

spk_0 So we talked about serotonin all right. It's the concentration of serotonin. 90% of the serotonin

spk_0 produced in your body is producing your stomach. Okay. Okay. And it's a neurotransmitter.

spk_0 Function is all throughout your body but also in your brain as well. So it regulates immunity.

spk_0 There's a direct signal to the brain from your brain to gut. They talk about the brain gut

spk_0 connection. It's absolutely there. Emotional stability stress resilience. All of this is actually

spk_0 there's tons of studies showing that yeah your gut biome matters. I can say from personal experience

spk_0 too that when I quit drinking I didn't realize this for a while but I was like oh I don't have the

spk_0 stomach issues I used to have. It just moves better. I used to think I was mildly lactose intolerant.

spk_0 I dairy all the time now and I'm fine. Fascinating. And one of the one of the things I do is I eat a lot

spk_0 of yogurt and fermented foods like yogurt, kefir, kimchi those kind of things are very good for your

spk_0 microbiome. Your microbiome. Yeah. So things like you know eat they they recommend I don't know

spk_0 I don't think I do this but 30 plus different plant foods per week. I don't think I probably get that.

spk_0 I couldn't even name 30 plants. I do you like I get like berries. Yeah. Yeah.

spk_0 Yeah. It's true. Frocles. Yeah. That's count. Okay. Yeah. I could probably. Like I said daily

spk_0 fermented foods I eat yogurt almost every single day but you can do kefir, you can do sour

spk_0 croit, you can do kimchi those sorts of things. Prebiotics like raw garlic onions, green bananas,

spk_0 asparagus, resistant starches which are like potatoes, green bananas again, legumes.

spk_0 I can't believe we're actually I can't either but this is actually what is happening to us true.

spk_0 It's I it is a little bit crazy. I've seen some of this stuff work. It is very new like this is

spk_0 this is kind of the frontier of I guess mental health. Yeah. Right now is is microbiome stuff

spk_0 got health but yeah I mean there's some like very fascinating early research and interesting

spk_0 case studies and I've talked to a couple people who have like you just said without call like I've

spk_0 talked to a couple people who have like removed or added certain foods to their diet and it's really

spk_0 anxiety issues, sleep issues, inflammation issue like tons of stuff. So there's something here.

spk_0 There is weren't I don't think we're like we're not the expert nutritionist in the world but

spk_0 it is interesting that this is this is the 10 years ago this was like quack science.

spk_0 Right. And like a lot of quack science it's turning out to be legit. Right. Or you know they

spk_0 they would take I think there is actually some science behind this too but if you take like the

spk_0 either fecal matter or fecal transplant fecal transplant that kind of stuff. I know somebody who

spk_0 got a fecal transplant. It was life changing for them. I mean yeah if you have a lot of gut issues

spk_0 that could be part of it. No judgments right. No it's it is it is wild. It's very wild. The thing

spk_0 though too that I've noticed lately I've kind of like fallen a little bit off the wagon here

spk_0 in there with my diet and the times where I kind of just I just go wild on something I feel like

spk_0 shit afterwards. No surprise I know that's like obvious to a lot of people but when you when you

spk_0 if you do clean up your diet and then you go back at any point you'll notice this a lot more.

spk_0 So if you have a terrible diet now you probably just don't know it. I just feel like shit all the time

spk_0 whatever. This is an interesting this I actually want to like double click on this because this

spk_0 isn't this is actually an interesting corollary this whole discussion around resilience and it's

spk_0 something that like as I have gotten healthier so I've implemented a lot of this stuff in my life.

spk_0 I've quit drinking my sleep has gotten way better I exercise way more than I used to. My diet is

spk_0 much better. What I notice is that the the the tighter I get on these lifestyle habits the more

spk_0 sensitive I am to fucking any of them up. Yes. So yeah five years ago I could go out drinking all

spk_0 night sleep four hours get up work a full day eat smash or cheeseburger and you know go to the gym

spk_0 and and to me that felt that was like a normal day. There's a perceptual shift that happens like

spk_0 the the more I guess the more volatility there is to your mood and physical state the less sensitive

spk_0 you are to that volatility and then the more the the more you minimize that volatility and just like

spk_0 are always at a very high baseline. Yeah the more sensitive you become to it like these days if I

spk_0 fucking eat a piece of cake I feel like I have a hangover that I say yeah and I'm just like well

spk_0 where did this come from is it though is it that you're more sensitive or you've just adapted

spk_0 because like if you're if you just like oh this is just how I feel a lot of time and I feel like

spk_0 shit and then whatever yeah and then you get to like I'm feeling good all the time and then any

spk_0 little perturbation to that. Yeah just so I I actually don't know like this is I actually was not

spk_0 planning to bring this up but when you were talking about it it just occurred to me and it's

spk_0 interesting too that this is coming up in a episode about resilience because sometimes my wife

spk_0 and I joke around are like how fucking weak we are you know it's we went to a wedding a few weeks

spk_0 ago and and we went to bed at like 1215 and we're like oh my god I'm so tired.

spk_0 Okay and we were thinking we were thinking like you know five years ago I mean she and I

spk_0 I mean she and I met at 3 a.m. in a club right so it's it is I do think to what you were saying

spk_0 I mean all of these things right like garbage food alcohol drugs, partying, lack of exercise, lack of exercise.

spk_0 Like there's a numbing quality to them like the thing that makes them appealing is that they kind of numb.

spk_0 How bad you feel yeah and so I think maybe a more accurate way of looking at it is that you're going

spk_0 from being a highly numbed person to a not numb person and so when you when you're not numb to

spk_0 everything around you you actually are quite sensitive to the quality of the food that you eat or

spk_0 how long you slept last night or whatever and I guess maybe this is an important point to make

spk_0 which is that this comes back to the original point at the top of the show resilience is not numb

spk_0 it's not not feeling it's not it's not just like blindly powering through you know being hung

spk_0 over on three hours of sleep and and still powering through I had a friend who uh

spk_0 this crazy motherfucker shout out to Leo if you're listening I had a friend who had a business trip

spk_0 in Shanghai and flew back the night before a marathon and ran the marathon. My god.

spk_0 Completely jet lagged that one over yeah and I was like what the fuck were you thinking he was like

spk_0 I don't know it was the worst day of my life and I just think uh you know he was like I was I was

spk_0 drunk as shit and uh you know I drank the entire flight home with my like we just closed the huge

spk_0 deal in China and so we were just like drink it on the flight and I landed and I was like

spk_0 white awake and I was like fucking I'm gonna run the marathon yeah yeah uh so I think it's like

spk_0 that's not what there is like a person like that that seems resilient but that's not sustainable

spk_0 no no so I that's not what we're going for right and numb and I guess the difference is that

spk_0 numbing yourself is not sustainable so it can't it's not the solution right I think I really think

spk_0 what the the big takeaway from the kind of physiological biological side and these trainable things

spk_0 so you know we talked about the diet we talked about um there's also exercise and sleep

spk_0 we'll go into this too we don't need to get into that but just know that you know obviously

spk_0 sure goes without saying so I'll give you an example recent example for my life um

spk_0 this uh at the beginning of the summer for whatever reason in my life shit just started like

spk_0 things were going great and then shit just started like yeah like personal stuff there's work

spk_0 stuff there's uh everything just kind of like pylon on it felt like now for the last couple of

spk_0 years I've been very good about exercise I've been very good about diet um I'm still working

spk_0 on my sleep but you know it's whatever I really did though like when all this stuff started

spk_0 happening I felt like I had like a reserve yeah that I can pull from yes okay I felt like I had

spk_0 energy to address all of this shit that was coming up in my life yeah um I have been across

spk_0 three different time zones consistently for the last several months that throws my sleep off but

spk_0 I've had a very good baseline um of of nutrition and of exercise as well one of the things I was

spk_0 helping out with I was helping my my parents out with with some stuff around their house and it

spk_0 was very very hot when we were trying to do this stuff and I was outside and I was sweating my

spk_0 ass off but I was fine and that's because I've been I've been training it I've been training and

spk_0 heat and exercise is for the heat for long periods at a time yeah I had this reserve I had this pool

spk_0 that I could draw from I'll tell you that right now I'm on my tanks about empty I'm I'm like

spk_0 because I haven't been training as much I haven't been doing the yeah my diet's been kind of

spk_0 all the replace my sleep's been all the replace I'm I'm starting to feel I'm like okay I need to

spk_0 get back to that if I'm gonna kind of fill my tank back up so point I want to make about resilience

spk_0 is that once you have it you don't just keep it to right yeah and and I think another point you're

spk_0 kind of making as well is that you there there are trade-offs you're not just because you're

spk_0 resilient in one area doesn't mean you're resilient in another area as well however if you have these

spk_0 biological kind of physiological physical health um habits underneath all of that that can

spk_0 definitely spread to other areas of your life yeah okay that's the big takeaway I want to you know

spk_0 we got in the weeds a little bit here but that's well yeah we're way off on a tangent but I think

spk_0 there are a lot of great points here first of all the the reserve 100% correct I did either a brilliant

spk_0 or stupid thing this year and that I started a second company I say as Drew shakes his head solemnly

spk_0 um I mean this is the last time I work this much was probably 2018 2019 when I was writing two

spk_0 books at the same time back then my my habits suck yeah and I like wrecked myself mentally emotionally

spk_0 and physically this this year it's been extremely difficult but because I have that foundation of

spk_0 like good lifestyle habits stability consistency it is hard but I I do feel like I'm managing it

spk_0 like it's not it I don't feel myself kind of spinning out of control or losing track right but yeah

spk_0 it's it I think so I think that's a super super important point and then the other point is also

spk_0 massively important you can actually over index on resilience in one area of your life like you can

spk_0 go too hardcore in neglect the ability to be resilient in other domains you know it's a Goggins is

spk_0 much of a badass as he is I think he's been divorced so it's like that's not a lot of resilience

spk_0 right right so it's relationships right it's it's just because you're crushing ultra marathons or

spk_0 triathlons or whatever doesn't mean that you're you're being emotionally resilient at home or being

spk_0 resilient as a parent or uh being resilient at work being willing to have your idea shot down or

spk_0 fuck up a project or whatever there's like a domain specific aspect of this uh as well I guess

spk_0 yes is is the important takeaway no absolutely what other biology do we have um I mean I do

spk_0 I mentioned yeah you're the exercise piece I didn't really get any of the weeds on that but you

spk_0 know they say 150 plus minutes of moderate to aerobic exercise per week easy right fucking easy

spk_0 that's two and a half hours yeah yeah uh two to three straight training yeah right I did not

spk_0 do that this morning what that exercise does though it's like it's it's a controllable predictable

spk_0 time-limited stress event yeah right and and so again your practice it's like a practice you're

spk_0 going back to that practice where you're doing something that's maybe I'm pleasant a little bit

spk_0 but you do it because you know it's good for you and you build that resilience muscle goes back

spk_0 to the brain aspect of it as well sleep we're gonna sleep um consistency over duration with your

spk_0 sleep I think that's one thing I want to highlight that we haven't necessarily highlighted before

spk_0 is um you know going to bed at the same time waking up at the same time but I think the other

spk_0 thing to another huberman thing is like the light exposure stuff yeah this can actually help a lot

spk_0 to reset your circadian rhythm and get you into a better energy space get you like I don't mean

spk_0 energy like crystal energy I mean like the universe is the universe is speaking to be true uh but

spk_0 you know I've noticed this too even as little like start with like five or 10 minutes in the morning

spk_0 and get some light throughout the day as well and then turn the lights down at night

spk_0 these types of things again they kind of what they're doing is they're giving you a reserve to pull from

spk_0 so when you need to face these difficult situations you can yeah those are kind of the big ones

spk_0 anyway from from the biological side that we can hit why is it marked that you think like the

spk_0 biggest nerve right or you know uh the uh a recent like having some sort of reset for your stress

spk_0 I felt the same way going into this I'm like oh god we gotta talk about breathing exercises we

spk_0 gotta talk about you know yeah cold exposure hot exposure whatever what is it about these that

spk_0 just kind of turn us off and they they're like are they too simple are they too I think you and I both

spk_0 have a bias yeah like like we like we intellectualize stuff yeah we're both

spk_0 philosophical we enjoy the complexity of of the science behind things and and sometimes stuff is

spk_0 simple sometimes it is like I think also I just have a very intense skepticism of this industry

spk_0 in this market so anytime I see something being promoted as a very simple and be like curing or

spk_0 seeing like massive problems my immediate assumption is that it's bullshit until evidence stacks

spk_0 up otherwise and and I would say too for you know for everything for every vagus nerve there's like two

spk_0 or three things that are actually bullshit right sure and we just they get lost to the annals of

spk_0 history like it and people don't remember them anymore you know like remember when you're supposed

spk_0 put butter in your coffee that was that was what was gonna like give you energy in the morning or

spk_0 like there's a bunch of stuff like that and it's it's also I mean it we have to be careful because

spk_0 we you and I have seen this go the other way too where there's something that is discovered

spk_0 and is is evidence based and then you get another 10 or 20 years out and more studies come in and

spk_0 it turns out that a lot of the early research was poorly done or non-analyze correctly or p hacked or

spk_0 not good sample sizes and it turns out that if you go to Indonesia or Japan and run the same study

spk_0 stimulating the vagus nerve doesn't do anything you know so it's it we have to reserve some

spk_0 judgment but you and I are going to eat a lot of humble pie in this episode like what we're

spk_0 going to keep coming back to this there's some stuff in the psych section that really does help

spk_0 and it's a lot of it is stuff that I've kind of trashed throughout my career so I definitely had

spk_0 the I'd be like okay I need to how am I gonna how am I gonna thread this needle here so okay I

spk_0 guess I guess we'll we'll carry on this conversation as the episode goes on but okay my sense is that

spk_0 like I I like to intellectualize and I tend to be very skeptical especially of simple things

spk_0 but that doesn't mean I'm always right well I think I mean the big takeaway from this section

spk_0 again is just that the biology really does lay the foundation for psychological resilience and

spk_0 so getting these things right that's why we're spending so much time on it it's it's important

spk_0 it is important and it is also a reflection as we get into the psychological section

spk_0 we're gonna see that a lot of this stuff is it's almost like a training ground

spk_0 like it's a total training ground for a lot of stuff right?

spk_0 it's telling the body, tame the mind exactly because if you kind of have control over your own body

spk_0 then you can have yes that that is a form of control over your own mind so it's a great place to start

spk_0 absolutely yeah

spk_0 so psychologically speaking how do we take our biggest struggles and turn them into greater strength

spk_0 and the solution to this is the Goldilocks zone of pain so very much like Goldilocks and

spk_0 the three bears this porridge is too cold this porridge is too hot this porridge is just right

spk_0 sometimes in life you have too little pain it's like you know a rock in your shoe or you know you

spk_0 stub your toe on a table or something or you got to take out the trash again it's an annoying pain

spk_0 it's a nuisance it's obnoxious it's not really developing character you're not getting stronger you're

spk_0 not overcoming any sort of meaningful challenge not motivating you to do anything really totally

spk_0 just annoying that's too little pain on the flip side there's too much pain where something is

spk_0 completely overwhelming traumatizing just completely wrecks you mentally physically emotionally

spk_0 and what we find is that when you go too far to the other end of the spectrum when there's way too

spk_0 much pain people break down they have a very intense stress response it can become a chronic stress

spk_0 stress response it can result in things like PTSD or various mental ailments different conditions

spk_0 and whatnot so it's that Goldilocks zone of pain not too little not too much just right just a

spk_0 just enough challenge to feel meaningful and feel doable which will keep us growing and

spk_0 overcoming and developing more resilience in our day to day lives now if you think about this I

spk_0 think it's it's the easiest way to illustrate this is like it's the same thing with our physical body

spk_0 right like imagine if you go to the gym and you pick up like a a a one pound weight and you start

spk_0 doing bicep curls with it like it's not going to do anything you could sit there all day and you're

spk_0 not really going to do anything whereas if you go try to pick up 200 pounds and bicep curl it

spk_0 you're either going to break your arm or you're just not going to move so the trick to build

spk_0 your physical resilience your build more muscle and strength and durability is to find the amount

spk_0 of weight the amount of stress that is both meaningfully challenging but also doable and then

spk_0 do that repeatedly over and over and over that's how you get stronger and of course the same is true

spk_0 their minds and in the literature this is known as stress anoculation training it's something that

spk_0 you can be very regimented about it's something that you can make very repeatable or if you're like us

spk_0 you can just do hard shit like just make a habit out of doing hard shit and you will eventually

spk_0 develop a certain amount of mental resilience and I think the most important takeaway of stress

spk_0 anoculation training is that ultimately you don't become a strong person by feeling good all the time

spk_0 you become a strong person by getting good at feeling bad at knowing how to adapt to pain

spk_0 knowing how to use pain and struggle to benefit yourself throughout this section I've kind of broken

spk_0 this down into five mindsets you know when I was doing research for this I really there's a lot

spk_0 of overlap and there are a lot of different schools of thought they kind of talk about similar

spk_0 things and you know they're technically different but they kind of get at the same thing so I lumped

spk_0 everything into five mindsets that can help us narrow and focus on this Goldilocks zone of pain

spk_0 okay and consistently it's her mountain overcome these challenges the first thing I want to talk about

spk_0 is something that I actually didn't think about for years which is you know in that I've been talking

spk_0 about the Goldilocks zone of pain for for a long time now but I never asked myself what is the

spk_0 difference between a small amount of pain and like a meaningful amount of pain like where is that

spk_0 dividing line and similarly on the other side what is the difference between something that is

spk_0 a struggle that's overwhelming and debilitating and a struggle that is just really really really

spk_0 fucking hard and what's fascinating is that it turns out a lot of this comes down to your

spk_0 perception of it and this is where we get into some of the Wu Wu shit that I have always ripped

spk_0 my entire career as being ridiculous and touch you feeling but it turns out there's something to it

spk_0 so excuse me while I eat my humble pie for a second it turns out that it's been repeated

spk_0 over and over and over again through the psychological literature that typically the more you believe

spk_0 you're capable of doing something the more likely you are to do it yeah that's I know it just

spk_0 doesn't sound right doesn't it fucking it's the fucking manifestation thing I know okay when I was

spk_0 prepping for this episode so this kept me up it nice true I thought very hard about this because I'm

spk_0 like I'm like if fucking manifest it can't be true it can't be true it is true but here's so here's

spk_0 where I think the difference is okay all the the Wu Wu fluffy manifestation stuff it's with the way

spk_0 it's generally sold or like talked about in the self-help market yeah it's always talked about as

spk_0 something that getting something that you want right so it's like you know if I'm like a couch

spk_0 potato and can't get out of bed in the morning if I just think about having six pack abs and being

spk_0 able to run a marathon I'll manifest it into my life right it's like it's it's often used as a

spk_0 way to convince people that they're gonna get something without having to put any effort in I think

spk_0 one day we should do an episode on like manifestation yeah we've talked with the idea yeah the

spk_0 cognitive biases around it and and like why it quote unquote works and why it also kind of

spk_0 doesn't work without getting into all that I think the difference here is that this is like this is

spk_0 when you're already in a struggle right so this is where it actually does work is when you've already

spk_0 signed up for the marathon when you're already in the gym on rep 11 and you're trying to get the 12

spk_0 okay when you decide I'm gonna get there it turns out it drastically helps you get there so

spk_0 so you're saying the timing is very important here I'm saying the context is important okay so

spk_0 where I would say the manifestation thing doesn't work is when you are experiencing no struggle

spk_0 when you're comfortable and you just want to be more comfortable you just want to have a thing

spk_0 that you don't have okay you're just like I I want to find my soul mate so I'm gonna manifest them

spk_0 and meanwhile you're like you know I don't know scrolling on TikTok and whatever you're not doing

spk_0 anything got you okay where it does work is when you're already doing the thing okay right so it's

spk_0 like when you are going on dates and you're like I'm gonna find the one or when you are working late

spk_0 hours on a weekend and you're like I am gonna get a raise like that that's where it does work

spk_0 is when you are already putting in the effort and the reason it works basically your resilience

spk_0 increases in proportion to your your the how much you perceive your ability to accomplish the thing

spk_0 because if you don't perceive yourself as being able to accomplish it then you're gonna be too far

spk_0 outside the Goldilocks zone it's gonna be too much and you're gonna give up you're gonna become

spk_0 demotivated whereas if it falls in your Goldilocks zone then it's gonna be engaging and

spk_0 vigorous and you're gonna be motivated to keep going so it's interesting though I guess

spk_0 to return to my initial point the thing that's super interesting about it is that the borders

spk_0 of the Goldilocks zone are very much perceptual on this side it is am I capable of handling this

spk_0 challenge yes or no if it's yes it's in your Goldilocks zone if it's no then you're gonna freak out

spk_0 panic and feel overwhelmed and give up and on this side it's actually super interesting

spk_0 the question is is this meaningful or not right okay so if I'm annoyed that I have to take out

spk_0 the trash every day part of what annoys me is that it doesn't feel meaningful it's like I have to

spk_0 do this bullshit like fucking fucking mom make me do trash all this stuff whereas if you find meaning

spk_0 in it if you've decide that like actually I want to really take care of my home and I want to be

spk_0 responsible and I want to like live in a clean area because that represents how I feel about myself

spk_0 if you add meaning to it if you imbu it with meaning and we're gonna come back to this later as well

spk_0 it pushes it into the Goldilocks and suddenly it's like

spk_0 taking out something as simple as taking out the trash every day it is a form of building your

spk_0 character you know you are you actually it becomes easier over time you become more resilient to

spk_0 the nuisance like think about it it's like things that annoy you they never stop annoying you

spk_0 you know like there's never a day where you're like I suddenly like taking out the trash right what

spk_0 happens is is you actually you find meaning in it and then then it stops being in relationship

spk_0 to it changes exactly right okay exactly okay the borders of the Goldilocks zone are very much

spk_0 are like largely determined by our perception of the challenge in front of us which is

spk_0 actually great because we have a lot of control over how we see things we get to decide how we see

spk_0 things and I'm gonna go through a number of examples of some pretty extreme ways people have chosen

spk_0 to see things and the results that happened afterwards I mean ultimately this is mindset number one

spk_0 is anything is possible even if we know you know if we put on our science hats we know like okay

spk_0 there are certain things that are physically not possible mindset number one is it's probably

spk_0 if we're optimizing for resilience here it's it's worth believing anything is possible yeah I don't

spk_0 I don't think this is necessary that will and I came to this with the kind of the same

spk_0 trepidation I think as well but like I said I you know read David Goggins's book for this new book

spk_0 for this Ross eventually they talk a lot about mindset yes they talk a lot about this but you're right

spk_0 they're in the middle of doing something very hard yes and I did make that connection that I think

spk_0 is really the key here yeah so I've got a great case study in this if you were heard of Yanos

spk_0 Kuros Yanos can I don't believe so it's a Greek guy so I actually became aware of him actually

spk_0 prepping for this episode okay widely considered the goat of ultra endurance events okay

spk_0 so he he grew up in Greece he started running marathons I think in the early 80s and he was

spk_0 good not great but what he started to notice was that he would do a marathon and he'd feel fine

spk_0 afterwards like all the other people he ran with were like just like wiped gas oh my god

spk_0 get me get me into bed I need to recover and he was like I could actually I could kind of do that

spk_0 again so after doing some of these marathons and realizing this he decided that he would sign up for

spk_0 some ultra marathons just see how it went so the first one he signed up for was called the

spk_0 Spartath Long which starts in Athens in Inzen Sparta it's 153 miles he'd never run an ultra marathon

spk_0 before he didn't even train specifically for this ultra marathon he ran it in 21 hours and 53

spk_0 minutes setting not only setting a world record but beating the previous world record by like

spk_0 multiple hours wow in fact the record still stands today 40 years later yeah yeah like he crushed it

spk_0 so fucking hard in fact it turns out that most of his world records that he set an ultra endurance

spk_0 running still haven't been broken wow even though he's been retired for 20 25 years okay a few of

spk_0 in 11 hours and 46 minutes oh my god 24 hours straight he did 188 miles 48 hours straight he did

spk_0 294 miles good god six days straight he did 635 miles six days six days and then he did a

spk_0 thousand miles in just over 10 days he's the only person who have done that I have never heard of

spk_0 this guy that okay crazy what's wild is that many of these records like I said still stand yeah no

spk_0 he's broken them in some cases nobody else has even attempted them understandably yeah like this guy

spk_0 is so hardcore yeah wow so hardcore and interestingly corals was very famous for saying that his secret

spk_0 wasn't had nothing to do with training had nothing to do with his body it's funny scientists even

spk_0 tried to study him because they suspected that like he had different muscle recovery from other people

spk_0 right right something like that there's always those things always come up with this of course

spk_0 he insisted and fatically that it was mental transcendence and we're going to get into some of his

spk_0 mindsets that he adopts and believes very strongly and he claimed that when he was on one of these runs

spk_0 that he would enter a kind of poetic altered state he said quote when other people get tired they

spk_0 stop I don't I take over my body with my mind I tell it that it is not tired and it listens to me

spk_0 that's wild this is Ross actually talks about this in his book the art of resilience he talks about

spk_0 the psycho biological model of resilience yeah and and do you hear this from military guys all the time

spk_0 to you when you're tired you're you're you've only spent 40% of your time forever right so it's

spk_0 actually so kuros was actually on one of his runs it's been a while since I read about it I think it

spk_0 was in there was a book called born to run I think they talked about him because I mean his his runs

spk_0 literally last multiple days and he would like he would start hallucinating he would like get where

spk_0 he was all sorts of stuff would start happening and I think on one of the runs like some scientists

spk_0 were in the follow car like with them and like measuring his biometrics and stuff and and basically

spk_0 what they found was when his biometrics hit where everybody else gave up he like wasn't even halfway

spk_0 done yet wow and he would just keep going and he claims this was all basins mindset this was all

spk_0 based and has his approach I believe I believe I don't know obviously training goes in I don't know

spk_0 if this is a direct quote but I saw somewhere when I was reading about him that he he said that he

spk_0 believed it was 90% mind yeah yeah yeah and Craig might have been Goggins he said it was one of those

spk_0 two yeah he said it was 90% mindset so yeah I think the thing that take away from Corros and I

spk_0 mean there's a ton of examples we'll we'll get into a lot of them but so talking about that

spk_0 Goldilocks zone of pain if one of the borders is almost purely based on perception one of the

spk_0 things that we find over and over again is that our perception of what is possible especially with

spk_0 ourselves is often wildly off base like we are generally capable of of doing and accomplishing

spk_0 and enduring a lot more than we give ourselves credit to in fact David Goggins actually talks about

spk_0 this in one of his books he calls the mind a drama queen and he said that your mind is not

spk_0 optimized for growth it's optimized for comfort and safety yeah and I think that's a really important

spk_0 that like the there are defense mechanisms that happen naturally inside you that will come up in

spk_0 the form of thoughts and stories and assumptions that they're not necessarily true they're probably not

spk_0 even accurate but they're designed to keep you safe and so they are true like there's a trip wire

spk_0 that's going off well before you're actually in danger of your mind telling you to stop we can

spk_0 talk about whether it's it's good or not to ignore those trip wires but I think it's useful it's

spk_0 useful to know that those things are there right and so one of the things that I think it's really

spk_0 important to do one of the I guess the most practical takeaways for people listening to this is that

spk_0 I think it's it's important to commit yourself to doing difficult things that feel slightly outside

spk_0 of your Goldilocks zone so things that feel just outside the realm of possibility like that's the

spk_0 sweet spot and then commit yourself to it like basically give yourself a put yourself in a situation

spk_0 where you can't back out right and you'll be surprised what happens yeah this is that stress

spk_0 evacuation training you're talking about yes it's so you're you're being very intentional about it

spk_0 but it's very calibrated yes in time okay and again to to bring it home back to like a gym

spk_0 metaphor you know you go into the gym you're like okay I bench pressed 165 last week let's do 170

spk_0 this week right you you go just slightly outside of where you feel your limit is and then you it

spk_0 turns out you can do it and then you sure enough your body adapts and you push into it so it's

spk_0 it's similar with mental stress or mental challenge like you want to find things that

spk_0 feel at the edge like they're on either on the challenging side of the Goldilocks zone or they

spk_0 feel even slightly outside of the Goldilocks zone and then commit yourself to them and then I mean

spk_0 the commitment thing I don't think is part of SIT that's my thing that's what I've found is like

spk_0 if you don't make the commitment or put stakes on it like you're going to back out right right

spk_0 you're going to find a reason not to do it so as you know as we talked about earlier as part of my

spk_0 research for this I decided to do just this so I signed up for a tough mother for those listening

spk_0 who don't know what it is a tough mother is an endurance race it's a combination of it's about 10

spk_0 miles of running through rough terrain so hills rocks trees mud water and then it's about 25

spk_0 military style obstacles so climbing walls crawling through barbed wire going over you know

spk_0 balance exercises grip strength you know doing like rings and monkey bars American ninja type stuff

spk_0 and then there's also like some pretty unpleasant aspects integrated into the obstacles so

spk_0 I ran it with my camera woman Jess who's here in the studio with us and we got electrocuted we got

spk_0 tear gas we had to swim through ice water we like we're way steep and mud multiple times

spk_0 and it's funny because this was a race that I was always aware of I never had any I never had

spk_0 any desire to do it yeah and as I was prepping for this episode I was like man it would be really

spk_0 cool like basically run like these these mindsets and everything I'm about to go through in this

spk_0 section it'd be fun like run myself through this right so what is something I can commit to

spk_0 that feels outside of my Goldilocks zone like I actually don't think I'm prepared for

spk_0 but I probably can handle it yeah and so I signed up for it and on top of that I committed

spk_0 I committed I got Jess signed up for it I got the team committed to it we shot it we ended up

spk_0 doing a video on it so there was no backing out like it's okay I think I had 12 days to train for

spk_0 it so what what made it slightly outside of your Goldilocks zone or with just within it or just

spk_0 slightly out of it so I I am I'm in good shape yeah yeah yeah I have a baseline right I'm fit I have a

spk_0 baseline of fitness I did run a half marathon maybe four months four or five months ago okay so I

spk_0 felt like I'm like okay the fitness side of it I think I can get back enough of my cardio in a

spk_0 couple weeks to like struggle bust my way through it okay the side of it that I wasn't so sure

spk_0 about was the obstacle side okay I didn't really know what to expect I did get on YouTube and I

spk_0 liked looked at a lot of the obstacles and I'd say about half of them I was like that that looks

spk_0 fine I can handle that but then there's about half of it then I'm like okay that could be

spk_0 reprobbing just outside your zone there exactly all right all right I'm gonna come back to this is

spk_0 actually a mindset number five but I'll you know I'll tease it a little bit here I've done enough

spk_0 hard shit my life to know I can do hard shit right it's your mind is already telling you at that

spk_0 point like I don't know if you should yeah your plane tricks on me I've built I've built a at this

spk_0 point in my life I've built enough evidence over time okay that like there have been enough

spk_0 things in my life that I I initially thought I couldn't do it and then I did it and I was like oh

spk_0 I'm actually capable of a lot more than I thought so but we're gonna come back to that because

spk_0 that is that that is a very important piece actually so when I signed up for it I did start training

spk_0 went up into the Santa Monica Mountains here outside of LA started running running hills and through

spk_0 dirt and stuff and doing cold plunges and a bunch of grip exercises and it's funny because this

spk_0 takes me to mindset number two is that stories are just that their stories and that psychological

spk_0 safety system that that trip wire that tries to stop you halfway from doing the thing like I said it

spk_0 will a lot of stories and narratives will start emerging in your head you'll find all sorts of

spk_0 reasons why you know you're probably not ready for this or like this could be dangerous or

spk_0 you maybe you're putting an employee in danger or maybe you're just gonna look like an idiot on

spk_0 the internet and everybody's gonna laugh at you all this stuff starts bubbling up to the surface

spk_0 and it's important to recognize that these things they're not necessarily true they're just stories

spk_0 this comes from CBT like we've talked about CBT a couple times on the show cognitive behavioral

spk_0 therapy cognitive behavioral therapy it is the most predominant form of therapy in the world

spk_0 today or at least in the western world originated with Aaron Beck in the 1950s and the the

spk_0 central inside of CBT is that there's kind of this chain that happens inside of all of us which

spk_0 is that our behaviors create emotions and then the emotions create thoughts and then the thoughts

spk_0 create behaviors and so there's this like loop that goes around and you have to find a way to

spk_0 intervene into one of those three links in the chain to change the entire loop like you can't

spk_0 just only change your thoughts or only change your emotions all three have to change but

spk_0 you need to find an entry point and Beck believe that thoughts were ultimately the easiest entry

spk_0 point it's kind of it's very hard to change how somebody feels about something and it's definitely

spk_0 hard to change somebody's behavior about something especially if they don't believe they should change

spk_0 their behavior but if you can get somebody to see something differently or reframe something in

spk_0 a certain way or give them a new perspective you can you can create a chain reaction leads to

spk_0 different behavior which leads to different emotion which now you've got an upward spiral going

spk_0 and so this idea of like not necessarily believing your stories is like is it's central to any

spk_0 form of resilience and I think if you listen to anybody who deals with a decent amount of hardship

spk_0 you hear them talk about this right like there's so many interviews with athletes who talk about

spk_0 you know I wanted to stop my mind told me we weren't going to make it or I told me to quit

spk_0 I wanted to quit but I didn't listen to it like you hear these things come up over and over and over

spk_0 again I think there's a certain skill that has to be developed of like being able to recognize

spk_0 your own stories and and essentially just being willing to ignore them you know the same way you

spk_0 would like ignore uh you know if your parents told you not to do something when you're a teenager

spk_0 like it's just sometimes there's things in your brain that you're just like yeah what do you know

spk_0 right right fuck off right but that takes that takes practice and it takes effort and our default

spk_0 position is to buy into those narratives and to follow them blindly and to just assume that whatever

spk_0 narrative pops in your brain is capital T true and that's the way things are and there's nothing

spk_0 you can do about it this is an area where mindfulness plays a role as well um I think a lot of

spk_0 you need to get a certain amount of separation from the narratives like being able to observe your

spk_0 own thoughts to a certain extent to like know what's a narrative and what's not it's interesting

spk_0 you know as I went through the experiment of the tough mother I like I really tried to pay attention

spk_0 to what kind of narratives popped up into my brain I would say beyond the first few days of training

spk_0 and especially once I was there like once I was there there were no

spk_0 narratives really none this is just this is what we're doing but I have the task in front of me and that's

spk_0 it yeah really yeah like I imagine myself 20 years ago yeah that would not have been the case yeah okay

spk_0 okay okay uh I mean part of this too was just like I wasn't allowing those narratives to even

spk_0 show up in the first place I think early on in the training they were showing up and I was just like

spk_0 this is not helping yeah fuck off it was so clear yeah that that wasn't helping yeah okay and

spk_0 again it comes back to mindset number one right it's you just decide you're doing it I'm fucking

spk_0 doing it no matter what I mean I broken legs and crawl across finish line I'm doing it and once

spk_0 you decide that there's not really a whole lot of room for those narratives just to start showing up

spk_0 I think I want to highlight there the two go back to what you kind of open this up with so this is

spk_0 cognitive re appraisal is kind of what this is called in CBT right and lots of other modalities

spk_0 in psychology because I tend to dismiss this kind of out of hand too as well but I think that is a

spk_0 really important point that you made when you brought it up and I just want to highlight it again

spk_0 it's that when you're in it when you're when you're going through it and you have a task in front of

spk_0 you you have a challenge in front of you that's when it comes in yes but it's not when you're sitting

spk_0 on the couch and saying oh I should do this and I just need to talk myself into it no yeah right no

spk_0 it's when you have the challenge in front of you that you need to reframe it yes that's the important

spk_0 part that's the important that's the leverage point actually yes yeah okay and it's funny because I

spk_0 never thought about that before it's and it's very simple and it kind of it gets me on board

spk_0 is right I'm saying you know it's like before I was just like yeah it's really it's actually

spk_0 really ironic too because you know a lot of this stuff that I'm going to go through is stuff that

spk_0 again it's like it's like a lot of like the the stuff that I see on Instagram or TikTok then I just

spk_0 roll my eyes I'm like come on guys seriously if you take that same advice and give it to like a

spk_0 Navy seal it's actually incredibly packaging matters it is vital and absolutely necessary or if

spk_0 you give it to like an F1 driver or a firefighter who's about to run into a burning building like

spk_0 it's actually excellent advice for them in that moment where it's terrible advice is when it's just

spk_0 the you know for when you're scrolling a Mopi person scrolling TikTok all day not doing anything

spk_0 yeah okay okay it's it's very it is interesting I find that incredibly useful in yeah yeah that's

spk_0 a useful distinction there yeah the next mindset is a classic stoic mindset which is focus on what

spk_0 you can control and ignore everything else there's a little bit of a tie in here with acceptance

spk_0 and commitment therapy which is essentially accepting the things that you cannot control

spk_0 it's interesting so I grew up with a guy who went on to be in the special forces and he served

spk_0 and I racked in multiple tours and I racked in Afghanistan and he told me a lot of crazy

spk_0 fucking stories over the years and so the second thing I did and in preparation for this episode is

spk_0 I reached out to him and I was like hey can I just like I just want I remember some crazy shit you

spk_0 told me can I just ask you a couple questions about it and he was like yeah of course so I

spk_0 talked to him and there there are two stories that like really stood out to me that he told me one

spk_0 was when he was in training he was doing a he was doing an exercise where they were they were

spk_0 jumping out of a plane into the into the ocean and then they had to swim from the ocean to shore

spk_0 and I forget how far it was but it was it was far it was like a mile or two to shore so you parachute

spk_0 out of a plane you land in the ocean and then you swim on the shore and you're supposed to do this

spk_0 like covertly in the dead and night or whatever so he was doing this exercise and he was parachuting

spk_0 down from the plane and what you're actually supposed to do is I believe you're supposed to undo your

spk_0 your parachute like a few feet off the water because you don't want to land in the water with your

spk_0 parachute on because then you can get all wrapped up okay yeah becomes a disaster and so you're

spk_0 supposed to actually like cut loose like right before you hit the water or right as you hit the water

spk_0 but he said that as he was coming down there was like a massive gale of wind and it like basically

spk_0 pulled him sideways and just slammed him straight into the water parachute no matter what he's

spk_0 doing or anything yeah yeah so he's in the ocean he's flailing around and he's got he's like all

spk_0 wrapped up in his parachute now and he's underwater and he doesn't know how far underwater he is

spk_0 and I remember he told me he was like yeah in that moment I thought yeah I could die here

spk_0 but he was like all I can do is just get my parachute off so I guess I'll do that to clarify

spk_0 your fan yeah yeah he calmly like went to his harness got everything off started kind of trying to

spk_0 pull himself out of it and eventually pulled himself out of it and he came up to the surface of the

spk_0 water and everything like so when I went back and I talked to him I was like dude weren't you

spk_0 fucking freaking out and it was interesting because he said he was like part of him there was like a

spk_0 there was like a very a level very deep in him that was that was like oh shit this could be it

spk_0 he was I guess from the training he was just so focused on like just do the thing in front of you

spk_0 that you can control just get the harness loose just get the parachute off worry about everything

spk_0 else later and he's like yeah then you just you just do that but he also pointed out he's like

spk_0 when you're in training and when you're in theater like there are so many moments like that where you're

spk_0 like yeah I could die like it's but you just focus on the next thing so the the second thing he

spk_0 told me about when he was in Iraq he was he was on one of those have you ever seen American sniper

spk_0 yeah so you know those task force that go door to door right they were like the guys who like

spk_0 literally kicked on the doors right so he was on one of those task force and he said he's like

spk_0 every house you're thinking yourself this could be the one right but in that moment

spk_0 I think what is there to do what else is there yeah what else is there well you follow they've

spk_0 got protocols you train through them a bajillion times the point that they're automatic and it's just

spk_0 it gave me a appreciation of the logic and military training of like breaking down everything

spk_0 into such granular processes not just to make sure that everything is standardized and it like

spk_0 it goes the same way every single time but I think it's like just for the mental sanity of the

spk_0 soldiers themselves because it like they need something they always need something in front of them

spk_0 the focus on next because if they don't have that thing right in front of them the focus on next

spk_0 and they're probably thinking about oh my god what if this is the one oh my god what if this guy

spk_0 gets shot oh my god what if this happens you know what's my wife gonna think what are my parents gonna

spk_0 think like they need to always have the next thing in front of them yeah so I thought that was

spk_0 super interesting as well isn't that how more our civilian lives kind of go though it's usually not

spk_0 that there's just like really one thing that we have to focus on I get the point that you're making

spk_0 that like it's imperative that you focus and do the thing that you can control in this situation

spk_0 in those high-stake situations like that but like you know if you've lost a job yeah

spk_0 um it's not necessarily clear that one thing you can control in that situation then you do

spk_0 start thinking about what's my family gonna think what's my girlfriend boyfriend gonna think what

spk_0 are people gonna think well it's funny you bring that up because there's another there's a book

spk_0 that was really popular about 10 years ago then at the time I thought was stupid as fuck that now I

spk_0 have a deep appreciation for it was called make your bed and it was written oh yeah there's written by

spk_0 an admiral and former Navy SEAL which is that he was like if nothing in your life is going right

spk_0 make your bed your damn bed yeah and and now like I remember you shit yeah I remember I'm

spk_0 repelling on with you I think yeah at the time I was like really man like make your bed come on but I

spk_0 I think I get it now right because you do need something in your life that you feel like you can

spk_0 control yeah and you do need something immediately in front of you that you can focus on and you do

spk_0 need that small win that you can build upon like there's a lot of subtle value in that if anything to

spk_0 just keep your mind off of the eight million bullshit things that are going on in the world so

spk_0 it's no it's funny you bring this up because like I kind of mentioned a little bit that the last

spk_0 few months have earned me a bit of there's a little bit of a shit storm not nothing I can't handle

spk_0 I get it but it was like there I had issues like water damage at my house but like my mom's had some

spk_0 health issues have been you know works been crazy you've been flying home been flying here

spk_0 probably gone a lot and there was one time I got home my house is a disaster it's torn apart it's

spk_0 a construction's up blah blah blah you know so it's a more mundane example this isn't life and death

spk_0 type of stuff but I was like you know what I haven't made my bed in like a month like I just I

spk_0 hadn't been doing it and I took the time I made it the nicest I've ever made it nice in a very very

spk_0 long time and it was weird but I felt a little bit better that I was like okay I can attack the

spk_0 so yeah I shit on it at one point too so I get it but it's kind of funny you brought that

spk_0 that up and it was and again that's a mundane example but it is just an example of this is what

spk_0 you can control right now yes some sense of control in your life then do it there is something to it

spk_0 it's interesting so when I was doing the tough mutter I felt pretty good for most of it

spk_0 there were a few moments that were really hard there was actually only one moment that I was like

spk_0 I don't know if I can do this yeah which was the tear gas that fucking sucked but tear gas that's

spk_0 not so everything else I was like okay this this is hard this hurts but I'm okay I'll get through it

spk_0 I would say it was really just the last mile or two that got very hard and so one of the things

spk_0 that I did because like I said we were filming it one of the things I did as I went through is

spk_0 just like every couple miles I kind of pulled out the GoPro and I just did like a status update

spk_0 of kind of where my mind was at and it was interesting kind of going back and looking at some of

spk_0 the footage because early on my mindset was very it was very preparatory so like if you look at my

spk_0 my in the first few miles I'm like talking about you know okay so the terrain is much more uneven

spk_0 and difficult than I was expecting so our pace has been slow and but the early obstacles have been

spk_0 easy so I'm like trying to save my energy for the harder ones later it was like all very like

spk_0 rational and planning and organized and everything and as it went on it you know in the middle of it

spk_0 it became more emotional it was just like hey we're making good time and we just did this obstacle

spk_0 it was fucking hard but we did it you know on to the next it was just like very like Rarara let's go

spk_0 it's funny the last one I did I got to the end and I remember I pulled out the camera and I just

spk_0 kind of sat that was running and I just kind of sat there for a few seconds because I didn't know

spk_0 what to say and then I realized I'm like I don't have anything to say because I'm literally not

spk_0 thinking about anything like all I'm thinking about is just put the next foot in front of the other

spk_0 like just just fucking put one foot in front of the other now the next foot now the next foot now

spk_0 the next foot and that was really that's probably pretty much how the last 20 minutes went it was

spk_0 just and every single moment every obstacle it was like okay hand goes here okay now hand goes here

spk_0 okay foot goes here that's as far as my mind went and obviously some of that is due to exhaustion

spk_0 but I again I think there's that narrowing of focus I think some of it too is that if I let

spk_0 myself think too much about the situation I probably all those narratives would have started coming

spk_0 up all those things you know maybe you should stop and walk maybe you should take a break maybe

spk_0 you shouldn't be doing this you know maybe that obstacle is actually dangerous you shouldn't go

spk_0 up it you know and it was interesting living living all these things that we're we're talking about

spk_0 and and researching it was a very very illuminating so yeah maybe I would I would even change this

spk_0 mindset number three I originally wrote down control what you know focus on what you can control

spk_0 it it almost seems like the takeaway here is actually that narrowing of focus

spk_0 I'm just like the immediate task at hand and just try to block out

spk_0 everything else I do want to return to one point and I want to return to it because it came up with

spk_0 with my buddy I've seen Gogans talk about this quite a bit obviously my life has never been in danger

spk_0 yeah with a lot of the stuff the difficult stuff that I've done or at least to my knowledge it

spk_0 hasn't been in danger but it's funny because I've said this to myself before like there's kind of

spk_0 there's a there's a point you reach where you just decide like I'm either going to do this thing

spk_0 or I'm going to die and I'm okay like kind of in it like reaching that level where it's like I will

spk_0 either accomplish this thing or I will fucking die trying I think there's if you can actually say

spk_0 that and buy into it with conviction there's an immense amount of power behind that and it's

spk_0 actually a very dark place and I wrote down I put in my notes here there's a darkness of

spk_0 extremely resilient people yes I did not research this this is just an observation but I it's

spk_0 something I've noticed it's something I've noticed with people I know as well as like I guess

spk_0 kind of celebrity famous very famous resilient people but like if you if you look at extremely

spk_0 resilient people like there's like a darkness to them and there is a there is a like oh yeah I'll

spk_0 fucking die to accomplish this like I don't fucking care I will I will go to the darkest place

spk_0 I will be miserable I find that very interesting I think I think what it is is that they just

spk_0 understand their own mortality at on a level that a lot of us just don't think about most of the

spk_0 time yeah I think that's where it is I I seriously think they're like well I'm gonna die at some

spk_0 point yeah might as well be doing this it could be now I think they have a a a very visceral

spk_0 understanding of just the precariousness of life too that takes them to that dark place yeah

spk_0 and allows them to be like well this is the end this is the end anyway there's at some point

spk_0 that's what it is yeah and so I may as well accept that they're talking about the acceptance piece I

spk_0 may as well accept that and I may as well do what I can in the meantime yeah I think yeah I totally

spk_0 agree with you there's just this darkness you talk about the gogans man he like there's a darkness

spk_0 it's it's very dark yes he knows that he knows that you know and and yeah I think that's a big part

spk_0 what it is yeah yeah it is it feels memento morey ish again it's it's interesting that it's

spk_0 another it's another one of those pieces of advice that like when it changes context it kind of

spk_0 the tinge on it changes a little bit right so like I've often written about memento more you're like

spk_0 just remembering your your own mortality or the fact that you're gonna die one day like

spk_0 it can be very inspiring and motivating so if you are in that place where you're sitting on the

spk_0 couch and you need to do something with your life like thinking about your own death is very

spk_0 sure it can be motivating it takes on a very different power when you're doing something extremely

spk_0 difficult and or dangerous right if you're running a 200 mile ultramarathon or you know training

spk_0 to be in special forces or you know whatever it is training to become a firefighter like it's

spk_0 that momentum morey in that moment it actually forces you to actively decide

spk_0 okay I could die doing this so to continue doing it I have to be okay with that yeah I have to

spk_0 be okay with this yeah and it was interesting because my my friend told me I kind of asked him I was

spk_0 do you feel like coming back to the resilience muscle I told him I said do you feel like you like

spk_0 built a resilience muscle in the military that like has stayed with you and he just started laughing

spk_0 he's like bro like like he's like since I rack life's fucking easy yeah yeah he's like none of these

spk_0 like all my whole career like kids everything he's like none of this is hard none of it yeah I've heard

spk_0 military personnel who vets who've come back from combat zones especially they say life in the

spk_0 military especially in a combat zone it's very difficult but it's very simple yeah when you come

spk_0 back it's very easy but it's very complex yeah yeah and I think that's most of us live in that world

spk_0 obviously right and so yeah and that's interesting because it's the complexity itself it can introduce

spk_0 a different type of stress all the stories come in there right all the stories come in the complex who

spk_0 am I what am I supposed to do am I doing the right thing my parents my friends the wider

spk_0 society have to worry about yeah that's where the story is in that complexity commit yeah I guess

spk_0 it comes back to that you know the military the narrow focus yeah yeah all right moving on this is

spk_0 mindset four is about to clash very starkly with mindset three but I do think they can go

spk_0 together so mindset four is make it fun find a way to make it enjoyable okay so yeah we just went

spk_0 yeah think about your death and darkness and let's make it fun but you know it's funny is the people with

spk_0 the sickest sense of humor yes yeah military guys police officers doctors and nurses right is the

spk_0 people who are exposed to the most heinous shit going back to the shackled in and the the doomed

spk_0 voyage to Antarctica it's interesting when shackled in came back with all of his men obviously it was

spk_0 like a huge story at the time and tons of people talked to him and interviewed him books were written

spk_0 about him and when they asked him how they survived the number one reason that shackled in gave

spk_0 as he said he called it enforced cheerfulness so when they were stuck on the ice he made it mandatory

spk_0 that all of his men carry on and live and do all the fun things that they used to do when they're at

spk_0 home so they had game nights they played soccer together one of the guys had a banjo and so they

spk_0 would sit around and sing songs they would tell stories and it wasn't optional like they they had

spk_0 to do it it was part of he implemented it as a part of the culture and I think this is yet another

spk_0 piece as you know I've shot all over the think positive thing I think this is totally another

spk_0 piece that when you're sitting at home in your life's a mess and you're not doing anything

spk_0 think positive is probably not the best piece of advice you probably need to you need to slap

spk_0 in the face a little bit whereas if you are going through one of the hardest things that you've

spk_0 ever gone through in your life and you might die yeah thinking positives probably a good thing

spk_0 yeah right yeah like finding something to be cheery about is probably very healthy response

spk_0 back to your glory lock zone right yeah to go to the lock zone if you're so far the other way

spk_0 like hey maybe we need bounces out just a little bit yeah okay that is a good way of thinking of it

spk_0 okay if all the struggles in your life are meaningless and inconsequential like if you're on too far

spk_0 on the other side of the Goldilocks zone then yeah thinking positive is just going to keep you

spk_0 over there whereas if you're on the the traumatic side of the Goldilocks zone then thinking positive

spk_0 and finding ways to have fun or cheer yourself up is might be the only thing that keeps you

spk_0 keeps you from being traumatized so here's the fun thing going to going back to Janus Kuros the

spk_0 the goat of ultra ultra running he was a very weird guy very interesting guy I mean obviously

spk_0 it was a weird guy yeah fucking ran a thousand miles at a time but very interesting guy so he

spk_0 he claimed the way he was able to endure such long distances is that he would compose music and

spk_0 poetry as he ran interesting okay so this was also his creative time too huh really okay yeah

spk_0 isn't that weird that's that's a little weird yeah super weird he claimed that it wasn't

spk_0 that basically his runs were not a physical experience that he called them to him they were a

spk_0 spiritual experience and part of that spiritual experience was the creativity that emerged

spk_0 as part of the endurance I don't totally get it but I find it fascinating that the guy who seems to

spk_0 have more endurance than anybody who's any known human and human history spent most of it

spk_0 writing songs and poetry to himself like that's that's wild like from a psychological point of

spk_0 that's so fascinating yeah so fascinating so not only is it make it fun for him though too but it's

spk_0 an imbuing a lot of meaning in it as well exactly like it's it's multiple layers to that so he keeps

spk_0 them in the Goldilocks zone from both sides right because we were actually talking about this with

spk_0 with Jess at lunch today like we were talking about you were you were saying that you were thinking

spk_0 about getting into you know more endurance sports and running now don't come out now I got to do

spk_0 oh yeah committing you got to commit to the thing outside of your Goldilocks zone Drew

spk_0 no but we were talking about when I told you I was like yeah I want to actually one of them

spk_0 biggest struggles for me when I was training for the marathon last year like the biggest

spk_0 struggle for me was bored of just get bored yeah like you're just spending hours on your feet like

spk_0 literally running in circles around the neighborhood okay just being like what the fuck am I doing

spk_0 there's so many other things I can be doing right right so I actually I do think the meaning

spk_0 piece you know if you think about it like this guy is literally running for days on end so if he

spk_0 can if he can find ways to create things that feel very meaningful and special and apparently spiritual

spk_0 to him I think that's how Gagin's approach is it too if you didn't listen to him it's like when

spk_0 I'm going through this he he builds himself kind of as a student of his own mind right and he when

spk_0 he's going in there and those long runs he's on or or endurance events that he's doing whatever it

spk_0 is he's saying that I'm trying to figure out some part of my mind that I don't know I'm trying to

spk_0 pick it apart I'm trying to see where the fly is or or what something new that I can get into yeah

spk_0 and so for him it's obviously a very spiritual thing he doesn't put it in those terms necessarily

spk_0 but I think that's what what's going on here's a lot of interesting metaphors for this process you know

spk_0 he talks about the pain cave yeah carrying the boats and yeah you know the taking souls taking souls

spk_0 you know it it is we're going to get to that this ties into mindset number five but a big piece of

spk_0 this too is is you know making a game out of it you can gamify it you can find friends to do it with

spk_0 for lack of a better term you know anytime you can add good vibes to your suffering you're probably

spk_0 going to be able to endure more suffering so it's not shocking but it is one of those things that

spk_0 there's a bit of an art to it and it's it's a little bit difficult but I think a really important

spk_0 component of it we alluded to it briefly a few minutes ago is humor and turns out there's like

spk_0 tons of research on humor and dealing with hardship dealing with challenge and then it's actually

spk_0 very healing force for a lot of people it's cool that like laughter is not just about fun jokes

spk_0 it actually in your brain it mirrors the actual process of resilience and that it builds tension

spk_0 releases that tension and then recovers from it if you think about what a joke is it's you like

spk_0 find some sort of tension or or two concepts that don't quite sit right together and then you find

spk_0 a way to resolve that tension and then there's like this release and recovery of laughter that

spk_0 happens as a result and I think there's it's just like a very beautiful parallel of what healing

spk_0 and strengthening oneself actually is and I don't know much about the evolutionary origins of humor

spk_0 but it wouldn't surprise me if there's something there right if there's there is some sort of

spk_0 healing power and laughter and I mean sure enough like there is a lot of evidence like humor increases

spk_0 endorphins which are natural painkillers your cortisol drops your HRV improves your blood vessels

spk_0 dilates so it really does when you are laughing it puts your body into a recovery state

spk_0 it also increases social bonds which we haven't gotten to the social portion of the episode yet

spk_0 but as we'll discover social bonds are fucking massive for for building resilience in your life

spk_0 and nothing really I mean what build social bonds more than laughing together also to what is

spk_0 humor if it's not cognitive reappraisal anyway too it's a reframing right absolutely yeah absolutely

spk_0 I mean it's there's a great quote I don't know if anybody said it it's just like an old axiom

spk_0 but it says like every joke is made half and just like there's a half truth to every joke and I

spk_0 think that's true especially with like coping humor when my in subtle art I wrote about my friend

spk_0 Josh who drowned when I was 19 and I talked about how that summer I was like deeply to

spk_0 this day the worst depression I've ever been in and it was funny because I was living with my brother

spk_0 that summer and and my poor brother like I don't know can you imagine your your 20 I think he was

spk_0 21 or 22 at the time can you imagine your your 2021 you're you're you're rooming with your brother

spk_0 for a summer and one weekend your your brother like when your brother's best friends like fucking dies

spk_0 and like now you have to like live with him and tiptoe around it and like try to like

spk_0 suck it so I spent most of that summer just sitting on the couch playing video games and strangely

spk_0 one of the things that I found very comforting or enjoyable or satisfying so my friends name was

spk_0 Josh every video game I played that summer you know video games let you rename the main character

spk_0 or a lot of them let you rename the character I renamed every character I could Josh

spk_0 yeah and then every time the character would die in the game I would fucking like verbally abuse

spk_0 him I'd be like fucking Josh fucking dying again to god damn it Josh why can't you stay alive

spk_0 and I just remember my brother sitting there like horror I'm

spk_0 I'm comfortably laughing right I'm laughing to try to release some attention here

spk_0 now it's sick so I think I know what he went through it's it was very sick yeah but I get it like

spk_0 that gallows humor you're talking about yeah yeah it was there was something like healing about

spk_0 there was something cathartic right about because it was like all the anger and sadness and

spk_0 frustration that I I didn't have anywhere to put it it's so like by naming the video game

spk_0 characters Josh it allowed me to put it on to the video game like I could yell at the video game

spk_0 and like get it out it was also funny though right right sick fucked up way yeah anyway apologies

spk_0 my brother I mean you're right though there are like the half-truths that you were talking about

spk_0 that's what we that's why we gravitate towards comedian comedian so much too right because they're

spk_0 often saying the things we don't want to say out loud but they do it in a way that's like it's

spk_0 a half-truth and it's kind of therapeutic it's super therapy why do people pay hundreds of

spk_0 dollars these days they see a comedian it's it's the stuff that everybody's uncomfortable about

spk_0 and like the comedian gives us a way of of feeling comfortable right you know right it's interesting the

spk_0 I forget where I learned about this but court gestures so like the

spk_0 the original role of the court gesture was that the court gesture was the only one who could

spk_0 actually criticize the king right like rightfully and so things that the king needed to hear but nobody

spk_0 else was willing to risk their neck right saying literally the court gesture would say right and he

spk_0 would make it funny and then the king would hear it but also kind of understand like okay yeah

spk_0 I should change that yeah yeah yeah and that's the modern utility of a comedian yeah absolutely

spk_0 absolutely so yeah humor is cathartic it's therapeutic it is socially bonding

spk_0 and even when it's dark and fucked up it's I would actually argue like the darker more

spk_0 fucked up the humor is the probably the more important the more work it's doing for the person like

spk_0 again I don't know if you've known any cops but like cops have oh it's yeah cops and doctors have

spk_0 like the darkest sickest since as if you're a PMT friends too yeah same thing yeah I'm sure yep I'm

spk_0 sure that's not an accident right that is not an accident all right so so far we have mindset number

spk_0 one is anything as possible mindset number two is everything's just a story and you don't have to

spk_0 believe it mindset number three is we change to narrow your focus and only focus on what you can

spk_0 immediately control in front of you mindset number four is find a way to make it fun

spk_0 it's brings us to mindset number five so I mentioned earlier that I think one of the reasons why

spk_0 the tough mudder race like wasn't as big of a deal or as hard for me is just that at this point in my

spk_0 life I'm 41 I've done a lot of hard shit I've like pushed myself through a lot of pain in various

spk_0 circumstances at a certain point when you do hard things consistently you start to develop and

spk_0 identity of someone who is capable of doing hard things and so you in this way you get like a

spk_0 self-reinforcing loop of the mindsets that if you survive difficult things long enough you build an

spk_0 identity of somebody who is capable of overcoming and surviving difficult things which then feeds

spk_0 back in the mindset number one which is believing that anything is possible right the more you've

spk_0 stacked evidence of your success over the years the more you identify as somebody who confronts

spk_0 challenges instead of running away from them the more you see yourself as someone who is capable

spk_0 of surviving the more likely you are to overcome and survive in the future the identity piece also

spk_0 doesn't have to be limited to just seeing yourself as someone who does hard shit you can adopt identities

spk_0 that help you in other ways if I ever meet goggins this would be one of the things that I'd want to

spk_0 talk to him about is whether his perception of himself or his ability to you know do his training

spk_0 or his races or whatever has been affected by becoming a celebrity because I do think there's

spk_0 probably something very valuable of him having such a public image as just a hard-ass like it

spk_0 probably holds him accountable it holds him accountable it gives him less exits I mean I

spk_0 I gogins does not strike me as somebody who's like looking for excuses or reasons to not do

spk_0 something right but you know I'm sure he has those thoughts like everybody does I'm sure he has

spk_0 days that he like struggles to get up or struggles to push himself and I wonder if just kind of

spk_0 knowing that he's David gogins if that reinforces that identity for himself and has made it easier for

spk_0 him to face those challenges or not I mean yeah he does address this a little bit in his newest book

spk_0 never finished I think he addresses it anyway well one thing I've heard him say a lot before you know

spk_0 he talks about this is where I think some people probably kind of get lost with him sometimes too

spk_0 is that he talks about there's gogins you know there's a hard you know and then there's David gogins

spk_0 which was you know they overweight loser guy he used to be and then he turned into a guy and he says

spk_0 he switches back and forth between those and he knows when he's being when he when he finds

spk_0 himself being David gogins he needs gogins to come out and kick that guy's ass right like that kind

spk_0 of thing right but I also think he did mention the book he was like you know I he did go through

spk_0 it was actually kind of a little bit the opposite for him where he went through this phase where he had

spk_0 the money and he had all the comforts and all that and he started getting a little bit soft but then

spk_0 I think what you're talking about kicked in and he's like no I got to go back out of it like I'm

spk_0 never finished yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah right so I think there was probably some uh some to that

spk_0 and they're I mean I I consider myself to be somebody who was a little bit um sensitive to the

spk_0 external pressures like that too and yeah if you live for a gym in a healthy way I think that's okay

spk_0 I'm curious because last last episode you talked about we talked about how you kind of got thrust

spk_0 into this podcasting thing unexpectedly and um like most people like when you're suddenly put

spk_0 online in front of yeah thousands or millions of people like it's nerve-wracking it's

spk_0 fresh like there's a lot of emotions that go on I'm curious um if you have seen any change like

spk_0 A has your identity shifted like do you see yourself as a podcaster now and then B if so has that

spk_0 changed the stress or difficulty that you experienced early on so I think in some ways I think

spk_0 right out of the get go I mean I was kind of on my way off of social media anyway before

spk_0 we started this and then this kind of came along I'm like I'm out like where a lot of people be like

spk_0 I need to get my social media and I'm like I would rather just focus on the job and do that and not

spk_0 try to self promote too much around this so that's kind of help keep that tamped down a little bit

spk_0 there are definitely things like you know I would say definitely my my exercise workout schedule

spk_0 I will do that there's days are like I don't know a couple weeks going to be in front of the camera

spk_0 yeah yeah yeah there's definitely that yeah I don't know I don't know if my I don't know if I've

spk_0 really taken on a strong identity as a podcaster necessarily yeah yeah I don't think I don't know

spk_0 it doesn't it doesn't feel like it identity thing is as you know like I'm so fascinated with

spk_0 identity stuff and we actually have an identity episode coming up yes and that's good yeah that's

spk_0 gonna get weird yeah it's gonna get super weird but I'm excited about it yeah it's interesting

spk_0 for a couple reasons one is like an identity is just it's such an arbitrary thing it's like literally

spk_0 just a self definition you just decide like I am this yeah and that simple statement assuming you

spk_0 you actually believe it it has so many knock on effects and ripple effects and so much power yeah

spk_0 but it it's funny too because it's interesting what identities we take on and which ones we don't

spk_0 you know sometimes I found myself in situations where I haven't taken on an identity

spk_0 just because it hasn't occurred to me yeah you know like it's it there have been other times where

spk_0 I've tried on an identity and I'd be like oh this does not feel right and I've like let it go and

spk_0 try to get away from it so and then there are other times too where I've kind of like willfully

spk_0 forced myself into an identity that I wanted and and that's been hugely helpful um so

spk_0 well how much so how much of it how much as as being you've been in the public eye now for 15

spk_0 years more than 15 years at this point and then this industry where it is you know constant

spk_0 improvement and you got to this and that you've been very open about like hey I feel

spk_0 of this kind of stuff all the time so I'm sure that took somebody edge off but what have you

spk_0 experienced around that it's funny because I I don't feel it doesn't bother me doesn't kind of

spk_0 feel too much like yeah yeah yeah somebody doesn't like what I do I'm not so identified with that

spk_0 that I yeah that's so personally I don't know I don't it's interesting I because there are a lot

spk_0 of people in this industry like it drives them crazy yeah oh yeah they feel tons of pressure

spk_0 and they feel like they need to live up to all sorts of expectations and they get nervous when

spk_0 they're in public because they think you know or fans watching yeah or fans come up to them they

spk_0 they kind of they get super weirded out and stuff and like I don't know I've just never really

spk_0 given a shit I don't have that separation between Gog and like Gogans and David Gogan

spk_0 or whatever like his person I don't have like a Manson and Mark Manson like it's just I feel like

spk_0 I'm the same guy everywhere sure for me the big one was identifying as an author this can sound

spk_0 really funny but you know when the when subtle art blew up yeah I guess there's kind of this

spk_0 default thing at least for me it was very default which is like well this is the thing I've been

spk_0 most successful at so I guess this is what I am yeah right so the I wrote a book and that book

spk_0 has been more like ten times more successful than anything else I've ever tried so I guess I'm

spk_0 an author that identity never sat right with me and and I could kind of sense it at the time but

spk_0 I think I was just writing this rollercoaster of of success through the late 2010s that I never

spk_0 really stopped and process did or thought about it very much but looking back there are like there

spk_0 were a ton of hints and moments where I would meet other authors and they would you know so Ryan

spk_0 holidays coming on in in the next episode and Ryan is one of these authors like that dude is

spk_0 born to write books oh he does is right my god he's fucking dealt to write books that's what he does

spk_0 and he has had a daily writing practice for probably at least 15 years now maybe 20 he never misses a day

spk_0 you know it's his output is just absolutely prolific and so I met I would meet authors like him and I

spk_0 I'm like I'm not like you're not like I can go six months without writing a word I don't really care

spk_0 yeah and so it took me a long time to realize that like I'm not necessarily an author like that's not

spk_0 that's not the identity that is best suited to who I am and I guess maybe this

spk_0 maybe I'm reaching here but we talked early in the episode about you know genetic fit for the

spk_0 environment like if you are if you are like an orchid who grows up in the wrong environment

spk_0 like if you're mismatched with your environment your results end up worse like you you you lack a lot

spk_0 of resilience there might be something similar there with identity as well if you've got a mismatched

spk_0 identity if you've adopted an identity that is like not suited for you at all and is not who you

spk_0 actually want to be and not what your actual strengths are then you're actually probably going to

spk_0 struggle quite a bit and you're going to be much less resilient then then getting your identity

spk_0 straight but if you do find the right identity it can be a can make like all of your problems and

spk_0 struggles that much easier and then be if your identity includes somebody who is good at dealing with

spk_0 problems and struggles then it's just like fucking it's a meta identity there yeah it's a

spk_0 nitro right last example from our guy Janus Kuros so the cool thing about him so apparently he's

spk_0 like a hero in Greece like he's a he's like a Michael Jordan yeah figure over there and I didn't

spk_0 realize this but so the guy who ran who ran the first marathon he was the the famous messenger

spk_0 from the ancient world the best long distance runner in ancient Greek history his name was

spk_0 Fidipides people started calling Kuros the modern Fidipides and they were like there was a proud

spk_0 ownership that the best long distance runner in the world was Greek because this is like this was

spk_0 part of their their lore is a mission and their national identity and yeah and Kuros just

spk_0 adopted this wholesale he started a movie as Fidipides he like wore wore the name as a badge of honor

spk_0 and to the point where so that here's the most interesting thing I thought this was super cool so

spk_0 Fidipides he's most famous for apparently running from marathon to Athens to deliver the news that

spk_0 the Greeks defeated the Persians supposedly he died after that run I discovered that that actually

spk_0 his death was entered as dramatic effect by playwrights later on that he actually didn't die when

spk_0 he did that and in fact his greatest feat of running was apparently he ran from Athens the Sparta

spk_0 and back which is the Spartathalon doubled just 306 miles and apparently nobody had ever run that

spk_0 I guess since Fidipides purportedly and so Kuros decided to be the only other person other than

spk_0 Fidipides to run Athens Sparta Sparta Athens and one go so in 2005 he recreated Fidipides greatest

spk_0 feat running from Athens to Sparta and then back again 306 miles without stopping is the first to ever

spk_0 do it and that talk about adopting an identity that somebody who does hard shit is wild we want

spk_0 to use five mindsets yeah we use his examples of uh Kuros Kuros and yeah yeah Kuros Kuros

spk_0 Yana's Kuros we've talked about David Goggins we talked about Mark doing a tough motor

spk_0 Mark and Jess doing a tough motor I opened up and said look if you're listening to this episode it's

spk_0 probably you're going through some shit right now it does a good chance anyway or you know you will

spk_0 at some point if you're not maybe you just lost your job yeah maybe you you just broke up with

spk_0 your boyfriend a girlfriend got divorced yeah maybe you just lost somebody very important to you

spk_0 in your life how can we apply these mindsets do you think to those types of situations because

spk_0 I think there are a lot of these lessons we can clean from endurance athletes from military I'm

spk_0 glad you brought this 99.9% of us are not going to be in those situations I'm glad you brought this up

spk_0 okay okay let's start with let's start with like a deep loss yeah break up lost love one yeah

spk_0 yeah even lost the job or a career or something mindset number one anything is possible when you lose

spk_0 something really meaningful in your life most people's default assumption is I'm never going to

spk_0 get that back that love I used to feel or that opportunity that I used to have or that support

spk_0 that I felt in my life I'm never getting it back anything is possible it's it's anything you can

spk_0 you can go out and create anything in your life the exact accuracy of that statement is less

spk_0 important in the fact that you believe it because if you believe it it's going to be far more likely

spk_0 to happen mindset number two the stories are just stories so let's say you lose a job or

spk_0 you get divorced or whatever there's gonna be a lot of narrative swirling around in your head

spk_0 about what you should have done or why is this why why did this happen to you or you didn't deserve

spk_0 this or it's not fair these are just stories it's the the cognitive the work of the cognitive

spk_0 reappraisal of deciding that like you don't have to buy into all the shit that your mind is saying to

spk_0 you mindset number three focus on the task at hand narrow your focus to the few things that matter

spk_0 take it one step at a time just do the thing in front of you make your fucking bed make your bed

spk_0 take a shower today seriously I know that sounds I know yeah I mean if you're in a really dark

spk_0 place yeah making your bed taking a shower like that's a success that's like that's a good day

spk_0 so take it one step at a time narrow your focus to the to the immediate task at hand and just

spk_0 stack those small wins slowly over time mindset number four find a way to make fun

spk_0 could be humor could be a friend maybe I should we should start a movement to replace positive thinking

spk_0 with shackled in-sturm which is enforced cheerfulness because I like there's an acknowledgement there

spk_0 right yes that's it's in for right because it's like the positive thinking thing bugs me because

spk_0 it I feel like it encourages people to be delusional right whereas when it's enforced cheerfulness it's

spk_0 kind of like everybody understands like we're not actually happy right now right we're stuck in

spk_0 fucking Antarctica we're cosplaying happiness right now yeah but we're going to play the banjo

spk_0 and play soccer like because and we're gonna win we're gonna enjoy it we're gonna make ourselves

spk_0 enjoy and I do think there is some value in that and I think that's a much better term

spk_0 right in positive thinking I get an acknowledgement that like we get it this isn't actually fun and

spk_0 this isn't actually a happy time I guess what but we're gonna we're gonna make ourselves pretend

spk_0 that it is yeah until it is okay and finally mindset number five which is you are a person who does

spk_0 hard shit it is part of your identity you decide that this is this is the type of person you are

spk_0 you are a person who does very hard shit consistently emotionally hard shit physically hard shit

spk_0 mentally hard shit that's just who you are hmm where it is a badge and then go prove it to yourself

spk_0 also as a reminder if you want to follow along with all this material that Drew and I are discussing

spk_0 get a better understanding of it review it in your own time we have free PDF guides available at

spk_0 saltboxcast.com slash resilience they are long they're comprehensive and we also have a membership

spk_0 where we classify everything that we're talking about so if you want to build resilience in your

spk_0 own life and you want to implement a lot of these ideas via exercises accountability a community

spk_0 of supportive people please go to membership dot salt podcast dot com you can learn more there we

spk_0 would love to have you on board all right Mark so we've done the biology and physiology of

spk_0 resilience we've done the psychology yes of resilience and the mindset's right yeah there's a

spk_0 third very big aspect and we've alluded to it several times already and that's the social

spk_0 and cultural side yep uh to resilience right okay I want to take you back to 1950s rule Pennsylvania

spk_0 let's go let's go let's go my favorite let's do it there was this little town called

spk_0 rosetto Pennsylvania okay and in the 50s doctors noticed something kind of strange that people in this

spk_0 community it was it was an Italian immigrant community people in this community had half the rate

spk_0 of heart disease as the rest of the country did as a national average half okay back then okay

spk_0 so they're like oh okay we're gonna go in there we're gonna find that they have this like

spk_0 amazing diet maybe or they exercise a certain way or something like that right yeah they didn't

spk_0 find any of that these were Italian immigrants okay a lot of pasta a lot of wine a lot of pasta a lot

spk_0 of fried meatballs and lard right a lot of wine they smoked like no other they weren't doing yoga

spk_0 in 1950s rule Pennsylvania I can guarantee that soundbaths energy healing done of that red light

spk_0 therapy nothing nothing like that no cold plunges shock shocker right but they had half the

spk_0 heart disease they lived longer they had lower rates lower incidence of mental health disorders

spk_0 anything just about any health measure you could measure they did better than the national average

spk_0 even though their lifestyles really weren't any different and probably even worse than some other

spk_0 areas right right so I mean we've already kind of spoiled it here but maybe they socialized they

spk_0 socialized social structures very robust they had very tight net communities there yeah and

spk_0 extended communities as well that they could tap into grandparents this was a big one they found

spk_0 this so I thought was very interesting grandparents you know they weren't kind of shuttled

spk_0 shuffled off into the corner or even off into homes or anything like that they're very much

spk_0 integral to part of the family structure they helped with child care they people would go to them

spk_0 there was a reverence for for their elders all of this kind of stuff right you also you lived

spk_0 in extended families too and there was more communal living as well it might be might be living

spk_0 with cousins or even people you're not even related to but they you really leaned on the community

spk_0 for a lot of your social life and just to get by in everyday life okay once they realize this once

spk_0 these researchers and the doctors realize this they knew from past experience that when immigrants come

spk_0 in within a generation or two people tend to assimilate to the culture around them right this is

spk_0 just how things happen and they predicted they said okay if that happens with this community which

spk_0 it's almost certainly will you're gonna see all these health benefits gone within a generation or

spk_0 two and that's exactly what they found okay so the the children of these immigrants assimilated

spk_0 into kind of more American culture independent living go off to the suburbs don't socialize

spk_0 quite as much you don't live in these extended families and sure enough heart heart disease

spk_0 went up mental health disorders went up crime went up all of these all of these different lifestyle

spk_0 factors that you can think of all of these got worse over time um this is a really stark example

spk_0 of how resilience isn't really it's not an individual sport it's it's a it's a it's a team sport

spk_0 it really is a team effort a collective effort of your social circle the greater community around

spk_0 you and largely the culture as well yeah what you grow up in um so they called this the Rosado

spk_0 effect actually this it's got a name called the Rosado effect and really again it does show that the

spk_0 just what a huge factor this is we've spent a ton of time on the biology okay to how to make

spk_0 yourself resilient psychology of the mindset that you need when really I mean we're a

spk_0 social hyper social species we cannot survive without other people therefore it stands a reason

spk_0 we're not resilient without other people as well without leaning on our social circles well in

spk_0 the call back to our emotions episode yeah one of the things that kept coming up in that episode

spk_0 over and over and over again is that emotional regulation does not happen in a vacuum right you

spk_0 regulate your emotions with the help of other people right like you co-regulate each other's

spk_0 emotions and that's why relationships and social support and family supporters like so consequential

spk_0 not just the mental health but physical health as well right right I mean some of the effects too

spk_0 so um everybody's we're aware of the loneliness epidemic right now I'm going on and I think

spk_0 I think more than anything when you think about you know earlier I mentioned oh there's this idea

spk_0 out in a culture right now that we're soft and we're not resilient I think honestly that's a big

spk_0 part of it that's that's one of the driving forces behind it is that we're not resilient because we're

spk_0 not we're not connected in the ways that we used to be I believe okay loneliness in fact has

spk_0 deleterious health effects as well they say that chronic loneliness if you if you feel loneliness

spk_0 on a regular basis over long periods of time it's the same as like smoking 15 cigarettes a day

spk_0 you know which is I used to be a pack of day smoker and I can't imagine yeah it's funny because I

spk_0 hear that I've heard the stats so many times now and and I I believe it I take it a face value uh

spk_0 it makes sense to me knowing everything I understand like knowing everything I know about

spk_0 sure psychological and health outcomes and whatever it just blows my mind that like the the amount

spk_0 of anti-smoking campaign that there's been over the past 30 years like the amount of education

spk_0 and advertisements and like social policy and all this stuff like get people to stop smoking or

spk_0 get them away from cigarettes or get smokers away from non-smokers there seems to be absolutely no

spk_0 urgency or or imperative around loneliness around this like it doesn't seem like anybody's really

spk_0 doing anything about it or talking about it or even like pretending to uh I don't know try to create

spk_0 policy around it so I don't that just shocks me like knowing how the negative outcomes are comparable

spk_0 to smoking cigarettes yet the social outcry and the stigmatization and the policy making and

spk_0 everything it's just not existed well I mean I think it is really it's seen as an individual problem

spk_0 still it's not seen as a collective problem yet yeah um and that might be changing to some degree

spk_0 yeah hopefully it is but I think it's it's seen as uh oh you're lonely that's on you I'm sorry

spk_0 like that sucks for you yeah nobody likes you nobody likes you but it's a problem right I think

spk_0 there's a lot of that um that's I think that's one of the barriers to uh social connection right

spk_0 now is just that it's one you don't really talk about it I mean we talk about it in the abstract

spk_0 right we're sitting here talking about the abstract right we're not talking about specific

spk_0 individuals that when it comes down to you if it's you that's lonely well that's that's kind

spk_0 of hard that's one of those things you're not going to share with a whole lot of people either yeah

spk_0 you know it but it's tricky because it it is a I mean it is quite literally a social problem like

spk_0 there's a great it is it is I know it's a paradox yeah there's a game theory aspect to it where

spk_0 it's like okay I can put all of my effort into going out more often and inviting people to

spk_0 stuff more often but it's like if all the people that I encounter don't change their attitudes and

spk_0 my efforts not gonna matter so yeah it's just it's a very frustrating strange time yes no very much so

spk_0 good thing we're doing an episode on friendship that's coming up that's coming up tune in for that one

spk_0 there are though I mean when you do have a good strong social group or at least some connections

spk_0 in your life you don't have to have a ton of friends okay we'll get into that you don't have

spk_0 a huge social circle you need a quality social circle but there's physical health benefits to that

spk_0 we've mentioned in the Rose Edo case buffers against heart disease dementia too I mentioned

spk_0 this a little bit earlier the super agers super agers okay and the single biggest predictor of that

spk_0 was how vibrant of a social life that had me not necessarily how many how many social connections

spk_0 they have but the quality of those social connections that they had did they have a social group that

spk_0 they could lean on or family members even too even just one or two people you can get the effects out

spk_0 of that co-regulation co-regulation I feel like the word co-regulation is like my word of the year

spk_0 so far yeah I just since coming across that idea in the emotion when we were researching for the

spk_0 emotions episode I just I don't know that that just like threaded so many needles for me and and

spk_0 pulled so many different concepts around psychology together in a way that that makes sense right

spk_0 like it's the super agers right it's not about the quantity of social interactions it's the

spk_0 quality of it it's because it's it's they are getting co-regulated by the people around them

spk_0 they are able their nervous system is is more imbalanced like their mirror neurons or fire

spk_0 their hormones are probably hormone profiles probably healthier they're probably getting better

spk_0 sleep at night they're less stress day-to-day like it is less anxious yeah it is if there's

spk_0 almost like there's like a social nutrition that that exists uh that built for it yeah

spk_0 literally that nobody thinks about right right at least we don't

spk_0 modern culture there is just such this like emphasis on you know the the lone wolf for doing the

spk_0 lone or the bootstrap in yourself whatever all of that is overblown I a good example you know

spk_0 we were talking we've talked about we have breakups a little bit we mentioned those a friend of mine

spk_0 recently just broke up with her girlfriend and um she's just she's beside herself about it

spk_0 right they've been together for a while and it it's really hitting her heart yes it really hard

spk_0 uh so she came over this last weekend um and I said you know well let's we'll start a fire in my

spk_0 backyard well you know hashed out it's it's cool and she even mentioned during this she's like um

spk_0 you know thanks for having me over all of this she's like I'm I'm I'm using you as an external

spk_0 source source of regulation right now she even said it that way she's under like me so she

spk_0 like thinks about this kind of stuff and that kind of donna man's like oh this is great I get to

spk_0 use this for the podcast now right but but at the same time too she was absolutely right what do you do

spk_0 when you when you break up with somebody what do you do when you lose a job what do you do when you

spk_0 lose someone closer you go looking for other people to help regulate your emotion I almost actually

spk_0 find it funny that she felt compelled to explicitly say that because I I don't know maybe I'm

spk_0 being idealistic but I feel like 50 or 80 years ago that's already understood that's just like

spk_0 tacitly understood by both people like right you just got out of a relationship here let's have a

spk_0 beer let's talk about it like you don't even it's not even a thing right right whereas now it's

spk_0 kind of like oh well this is a thing I'm going through and you know like we've just kind of like

spk_0 therapy eyes everything we absolutely have yeah yeah you know the other thing though to

spk_0 you know mentioned David Goggins lot Ross edgeley those guys who endurance athletes

spk_0 um and I always kind of thought of Goggins is like that lone wolf type like he kind of

spk_0 is this lone wolf out there whatever in his newest book though he's got a whole chapter on his

spk_0 cruise that he uses and he emphasizes you know surrounding yourself with the right people

spk_0 that that kind of thing he talks about a lot in this and it's like having having the right crew

spk_0 he doesn't recruit like crazy athletes to be his Pacers or we grow crazy athletes even being

spk_0 as his crew whether it's helping them out with the nutrition or hydration or just logistics of the

spk_0 whole thing it's just people who kind of understand him I think in some at least in some aspect of his

spk_0 crazy mind they they understand some part of him better and he feels like they do and he knows

spk_0 that he can kind of lean on them at some point so even even somebody like Goggins the the man who's

spk_0 out to be the baddest motherfucker ever in his own words that's his own words he's still acknowledges

spk_0 that he hasn't done it alone and then he goes back in his life too he talks about his mom

spk_0 seriously go and get the audio book for this okay because he does like these little

spk_0 mini podcasts between each of the chapters they'll read the chapter then he does a little

spk_0 mini podcast with the author he brings his mom on at one point so you hear about these characters

spk_0 in his life that have really shaped him as well and I think he would still even though he's

spk_0 a savage and he's the baddest motherfucker alive right I think he's he still will tell you he

spk_0 didn't do it alone yeah and there's all this sorts of science I'm not even going to get it into

spk_0 it all because it's just it's it should be obvious to us even if it's not isn't it interesting

spk_0 that we tend to celebrate and maybe this is just an a Western culture thing or an American culture

spk_0 thing but we celebrate self-made people so much like there's kind of this mythology around

spk_0 some of our heroes in our culture that they they over they came from nothing and they overcame

spk_0 all the obstacles and they're just kind of these like you know superhuman type characters yeah

spk_0 we don't celebrate community made success it's right another one of those things it feels to

spk_0 woo woo touchy feel yeah I don't know and I don't even know what that would look like right like

spk_0 imagine if instead of Michael Phelps being on the podium at the Olympics it was his coach and his

spk_0 family on on the podium oh right yeah yeah that would just feel weird yeah I don't know I guess so

spk_0 I mean it's something we just take for granted I think to when we have it I know I definitely do

spk_0 like I've been very fortunate and even if I didn't you know I had there was certain hardships

spk_0 or whatever went through I always there was always somebody I can turn to and that 100% has made

spk_0 me who I am today so yeah but there's just no there's no way around the outsized effect that this has

spk_0 on how you can deal with all the shit that life throws at you there's just there's no way around it

spk_0 yeah so yeah yeah I think you're right there we idealize this self-made person the lone wolf too

spk_0 I never quite got that one I'm like you're not impressed in anybody by this lone wolf whatever

spk_0 I don't know I it's this that's not gonna that's not sustainable yeah definitely not sustainable yeah

spk_0 I find the Rosetta thing a little bit interesting because it was a small poor community you're seeing

spk_0 this quite a bit with the blue zones that were popularized maybe about 20 years ago without getting

spk_0 into all of the potential data issues with the blue zones which there are any one of the things

spk_0 that's unique about the blue zones is that they are all small rural communities relatively poor

spk_0 communities in wealthy countries that's kind of right yeah the magic combo but what they're

spk_0 finding is that the blue zones are disappearing as well as the economic development shows up you're

spk_0 not seeing that sort of longevity or or super aging anymore it's kind of raises an interesting

spk_0 question I think in that you know that those intense social networks and social support systems

spk_0 probably emerge out of necessity from hardship yes right like it's a poor community you have to

spk_0 rely on everybody you have to live with a bunch of people you have to have your grandparents help

spk_0 raise you because there's no no other option there's no money and so as soon as there's money

spk_0 people kind of go their own ways and maybe they enjoy life a little bit more have a little bit more

spk_0 freedom but then they lose the social systems that we seem so like evolved for think about this

spk_0 you've talked about this before but think about this when you when you lose that social aspect it's

spk_0 not that you're yes you're losing that co-regulation you're losing you can rely on these people yes

spk_0 what you're also losing too is you're that practice of navigating difficult social relationships

spk_0 yet that that stress and accumulation training you're losing that too you're you're losing

spk_0 interacting with other people and having to have difficult conversations having to deal with people

spk_0 that you don't necessarily like you just in your family you're losing that when you're not engaging

spk_0 socially you're you're losing that resilience muscle in a in a social aspect way too because as we

spk_0 talked about in the happiness episode money doesn't buy happiness it buys away friction like as

spk_0 soon as wealth enters into the community you can go get your own house you don't have to

spk_0 live with grandma grandpa you can send your kid to their own private school you don't need to

spk_0 rely on your neighbors to help homeschool your kid you can buy your own car you don't need the car

spk_0 pool with people anymore and so by removing the friction like you said you you remove those kind of

spk_0 that enforced co-regulation that has to happen frequently and so fascinating this reminds me you

spk_0 know with the old podcast we had David Brooks on and he and he and I ended up talking about this

spk_0 quite a bit and and I think one really one of the kind of the revolutionary ideas he had in his

spk_0 last book was just that like a certain amount of social friction is optimal that's the point yeah

spk_0 yes that like you should be forced to be around people who are a little bit difficult to be with

spk_0 sometimes like that is a very not only is that a very human experience but it is by dealing with

spk_0 that friction a you you develop the emotional skills and and toolkits to to become more emotionally

spk_0 resilient but b you also strengthen those relationships and those bonds and um yeah have a better

spk_0 social network yeah yeah I mean with the the trend and remote work and everything like that now

spk_0 you're not necessarily in the same place as your co-workers you don't have to be in the same room if

spk_0 you don't yeah you know for the longest time our our small little team we have just a few people

spk_0 we were very independent go off and do your own thing then come back and we you know do that now

spk_0 that we have more people on the team I've definitely noticed um like I have to be a lot more I have

spk_0 to regulate emotionally a lot more now too with the one I have to deal with different personalities I

spk_0 have to uh adjust some of us are working some of us are named lions you know I have to navigate that

spk_0 now and it's made me better at doing that it's made me better with my own emotions around

spk_0 dealing with people and situations where things come up where you're like okay there's something

spk_0 wrong here yeah that's helped me quite a bit too too um you know otherwise though I'm very much

spk_0 introverted but like my ideal we talked about environment fit my ideal environment is usually

spk_0 by myself and you know um I'll go home after this and I'll crash and I'll just be exhausted and

spk_0 that's also part of resilience training though as well but at the same time too you yeah you do need

spk_0 to expose yourself to to some degree of social friction it's not just the co-regulation it's not

spk_0 just having friends and being happy it's actually the conflict yeah that I think makes us a little

spk_0 bit more resilient too yeah it's so counterintuitive but I think it's so important absolutely yeah yeah

spk_0 yeah another example we found to the um you know after or during World War II Hitler was sent in

spk_0 planes and bombs into London and at first all the experts there were like oh this is just going to

spk_0 tear apart the social fabric here there's there's there's worst-growing kind of the opposite ended

spk_0 up happening and there's this I think it goes a little bit to your point of where communities kind

spk_0 of develop through that there has there's some underlying agitation yeah or external hardship pushes

spk_0 people together pushes people together pressure it pushes them together and that's exactly what

spk_0 happened in London and what during World War II every bomb that didn't hit you was just like hey

spk_0 Hitler missed me right and then you would go and you would out of the rubble they would find new

spk_0 new things the builder make with each other or yeah come together and clean it up or whatever it was

spk_0 and that's kind of where the the British stiff upper lip kind of uh uh die a tribe came from or the

spk_0 through the old trope about this British stiff upper lip I mean suicide rates dropped that's

spk_0 insane to me yeah right like your under war like this could be your last day on earth yes and suicide

spk_0 rates dropped psychiatric hospital admissions plummeted during this um and then like a lot of like

spk_0 psychosomatic like back pain um of like pain whatever a lot of the headaches migraine stuff like that

spk_0 incidences went way down I I talked about some of this this research in my second book

spk_0 everything is fucked and and it is so paradoxical but I the conclusion I came to there and this

spk_0 actually relates back to kind of the psychological section is that hardship creates clarity

spk_0 yes yeah it makes it extremely obvious what matters what you should focus on what you care about

spk_0 and what the people around you should care about and there's there's a real comfort and well-being

spk_0 that comes with that clarity even if the world's burning around you the fact that you don't have to

spk_0 sit and question all the time is this worth doing should I stop should I try this other thing instead

spk_0 are they going to make fun of me at least as soon as all those thoughts are removed

spk_0 there's almost this liberation that happens right in in some of life's toughest moments right

spk_0 which is very paradoxical there there does kind of have to already be a community underneath of that

spk_0 they can push communities closer together and rarely I don't think it necessarily creates

spk_0 communities necessarily yeah but it can it can definitely strengthen the ties between communities

spk_0 example like this is from Hurricane Katrina the Vietnamese community in in New Orleans really came

spk_0 to get they they were the ones who actually bounced back much quicker than a lot of other communities

spk_0 in that area and it's because they already had kind of that yeah those social ties now they had a

spk_0 history together a lot of them were refugees from the Vietnam War they had the all these social

spk_0 networks kind of already set up these social ties again it's not an individual sport it's a team

spk_0 sport yeah resilience is for sure yeah how does it look to build kind of a really resilient social

spk_0 circle if if there is a list of things we can give to people let's try I'm not sure we might find

spk_0 some nuance and messiness in this yeah I think a little bit we've mentioned a few of these things

spk_0 already though one of them and I think that the top one is to prioritize depth yes over breath you

spk_0 you've kind of mentioned this you have all these loose connections around and wish you had more

spk_0 depth and I think that's really the key to resilience there is having those one to two to maybe

spk_0 three people where you could go to them for anything yeah I'm not saying that's easy again that

spk_0 takes a lot of time it takes a lot of repetition with this person it takes a lot of intimate knowledge

spk_0 with them shared experiences which is another thing on here that we could get into but depth over

spk_0 breath is always it's going to win every time in social connection especially when it comes to

spk_0 resilience and be able to lean on these people these relationships yeah I think unconditional

spk_0 acceptance yes compassion yeah is is is is absolutely necessity the other thing that comes to mind

spk_0 to and this ties into mindset number one which is finding people who believe you're capable more than

spk_0 you think you're capable ah yes when I think about some of the most impactful people in my life

spk_0 they've often been people who actually believed in me more than I believed in myself that's actually

spk_0 a protective factor I don't think we mentioned this at all that's actually a protective factor for

spk_0 a lot of kids who grow up in adverse environments is having at least one adult in their life who did

spk_0 believe in them or who did show them yeah some some way that they can do something different in their

spk_0 lives and then be something more than what they thought they could be that's a protective factor

spk_0 I there's definitely been that in my life like I think back on the teachers or the coaches or mentors

spk_0 that I had growing up and I they just they were instrumental essential to to my own development

spk_0 so yeah yeah for sure um investing in shared rituals is another one okay I give me now getting a

spk_0 little getting Coltie yeah Coltie yeah so I am part of I mean I'm down I'm ready for my cold

spk_0 guys I'm ready you show me show me where to burn the candles and drink the goat blood I'm in the

spk_0 goat blood I I mean more like for instance I am a part of what we call the dinner club a dinner

spk_0 club okay where you got it's a group chat we're on and even though we actually haven't gotten

spk_0 together in the last few months because we've all been crazy busy and just gone and people get

spk_0 married and all this kind of stuff we have we try to get together and have a monthly dinner

spk_0 uh which is with a small group of people and we rotate who hosted or we go out to a dinner

spk_0 or something like that and it's just it's just dinner with friends it's all it is but that group

spk_0 has now also become like when something bad happens uh somebody has somebody in their family die

spk_0 this has happened before too we'd like everybody come together we rally together around us okay

spk_0 and it's because we have that repeated exposure with each other and it's you know fairly low stakes

spk_0 and it's just dinner and whatever but you know it's it actually means a lot to me the the initiation

spk_0 rights I'm sure for brutal the hazing is just no it's no bearable gotta eat a hot pepper or something

spk_0 no it's not like you could do a dinner that's a create like a creative act though too you're creating

spk_0 a dinner for other people around you and that's gonna just attract more people one thing I've been

spk_0 talking with you is like oh you we should all invite one person that the rest of the group doesn't

spk_0 know it doesn't know very well those sorts of things introduce more people into that that I think

spk_0 is a cool way to do it it could be mountain biking or hiking or you could do whatever around some

spk_0 activity um and commit to it you know it's not just one of those things you just kind of

spk_0 I will do it every now and then but it's like we have it did it's called the dinner club yeah I

spk_0 I feel like structure is important yeah for stuff like that I guess this kind of comes into like the

spk_0 the looser bonds you know if you can implement some sort of structure like you said ritual yeah

spk_0 and then if you can adhere to it for a certain amount of time that you kind of develop there's like

spk_0 this psychological reluctance like well we've been doing this for two years like let's not

spk_0 fuck it up now I remember I had a book club in New York when I lived there and that was like honestly

spk_0 one of the social highlights of my life yeah uh was the group of guys it was just four of us really

spk_0 close friends we all read super nerdy books and uh and we actually reached a point where it was like

spk_0 we've we've gone two and a half years and never missed never failed to finish a book never failed

spk_0 to have a meeting about it like no like no man left behind everybody's finished every book

spk_0 and it kind of reached a point where it was like guys don't fuck this up man like don't be the one

spk_0 who ruins it yeah there's stakes there's stakes there's stakes you gotta create stakes somehow

spk_0 right right now those kind of stakes are built over time yes not just immediately built in but yeah

spk_0 well what do you about so I've kind of already ragged on like you know joining

spk_0 well let's say I spit yoga crossfit whatever it is but I do think there is something to like more

spk_0 purpose-driven groups okay and you and I have also talked about where we seem to be way more way

spk_0 to index globally and not enough locally yeah so I really do think there's gonna be I think we're

spk_0 about to see this we are seeing this in some pockets even too where volunteering that used to be

spk_0 I don't my grandparents I look back they volunteered all the time it was insane it was like

spk_0 food banks or just the you know they were both my grandpa was in the VFW you know my grandma was

spk_0 in the was a rotary club or whatever it was right they did all of those sorts of things and it was

spk_0 all very community focused they never got paid for any of it they would show up there was a very

spk_0 social aspect to it but they would also help others as well and it was community-based too but

spk_0 that purpose that you're sharing with somebody especially you could go like volunteer at the food

spk_0 bank or something like that you're gonna find some people you probably if you're that kind of

spk_0 person who's gonna go do that you're gonna find people who are very much in line with you and

spk_0 then not only that but they probably have this a a looser network as well that you'll be able to

spk_0 tap into eventually again that's gonna take some time but yeah the thing that I'm thinking about

spk_0 and it's interesting because I did not expect this through line yeah to emerge before we started

spk_0 recording but you know in the psychological section I talked about the importance of making a

spk_0 commitment to something hard I feel like with the social stuff especially these days like there

spk_0 there needs to be some degree of commitment right so like I think about the food bank thing

spk_0 it's like there have been a bunch of things in my life that I've tried some of it volunteering some

spk_0 of its social stuff you know like a yoga class and I'll go do it once or twice and I'm like oh okay

spk_0 that's cool I think it's what most people do yeah and I think there's the thing that is missing is

spk_0 the stakes and the stakes are created through some form of commitment not just volunteering for

spk_0 food bank but finding some higher reason or higher purpose to promise yourself or promise your

spk_0 community or promise somebody else at the food bank that you're gonna you're gonna volunteer there

spk_0 once a week for an entire year right it's like you create you create expectations for yourself you

spk_0 create stakes for yourself and then once you're locked in to that friction you start doing the hard

spk_0 thing and then that actually is what builds the relationships and the meaning and purpose and whatever

spk_0 right right I again I just want to kind of reiterate though it seems but if you are gonna try

spk_0 this route it seems better to do something like that other than not just like yoga or

spk_0 or yeah you know all of those things like you're something something you're giving instead of

spk_0 getting yes very much so you know we spent a lot of time on the biology the physiology the health

spk_0 aspects all of that I think you should treat this much the same like social connection treating

spk_0 as part of your your health now that we know all of these things you know it used to be that this

spk_0 is just what people did they just yeah and social connection was just that that was the fabric of

spk_0 of culture and society now that we know what it is though I think we just have to be a little bit

spk_0 more conscious of it yeah we have to be we have to treat it okay I'm doing this for my health

spk_0 but also you know it helps other people as well I saw I think yesterday an amazing tweet it's

spk_0 actually one of the best tweets I've seen in a long time it was a guy he posted I'm probably

spk_0 gonna butcher this but he said that he said societies have amnesia so a society will have a problem

spk_0 they find a solution the solution becomes a tradition that and then the tradition works for so

spk_0 many generations that they forget what the problem was that they were solving and so they get rid

spk_0 of the tradition and then the problem re-emerges yeah and I feel like this is definitely one of those

spk_0 yeah and of course as a quick reminder we just talked about how hard it is to build community

spk_0 and social support well we are trying to do exactly that with the podcast membership you can go

spk_0 to the solved membership community it's a community of a few thousand people all around the world

spk_0 to every single month are trying to implement everything they've learned in the podcast so go to

spk_0 membership.solvepodcast.com to learn more about that we would love to see you in there

spk_0 all right Drew it's that time of the episode it's time to talk about what is the 80-20 we just spent

spk_0 three four hours talking through resilience talking through all the biology of resilience the

spk_0 psychology of mental and emotional resilience and the sociology I guess social society yeah social

spk_0 social ability of being more resilient we just firehose the audience with information so this is

spk_0 the point of the show where we break down gun to your head you can only take one or two or three

spk_0 things with you and implement them into your life what would they be to get the highest leverage

spk_0 so why don't we start with the biology side yeah what would you take I think I think the most

spk_0 important thing from the biophysical side of resilience is really getting a good exercise routine

spk_0 or at least getting more physical activity in your life it does so many things there's a reason that

spk_0 we talked a lot about like endurance athletes and all of that right in resilience and yes it's a

spk_0 certain type of resilience but it's like a lot of practice around resilience as well you're doing

spk_0 things that are hard first of all right you're doing things you might not want to do sometimes too

spk_0 or they and it's it has to be consistent as well to build that resilience muscle muscle as well yeah

spk_0 we also talked a lot of you know I spent a lot of time nerd out about the neuro biology and the

spk_0 anterior medial single singular cortex mouthful there um studies have shown that physical exercise

spk_0 regular exercise changes the not only the the function of that part of your brain but also the

spk_0 structure of it as well and it's very very um instrumental in other areas of resilience in your life

spk_0 so using it's like a foundation like I said when we were talking about that physical exercise getting

spk_0 the the kind of your your your physical health in order anyway it's a foundation for the rest of

spk_0 resilience whether psychological social all of that it gives you that pool that reserve that

spk_0 you can draw on and I really think that physical exercise is really the entry point to that

spk_0 sleeps important yes nutrition important yes gut health all of that we talked about but I think if

spk_0 you're only going to focus on one thing to start out with like get get your ass off the couch

spk_0 what do you think of that so I don't disagree I struggled with this I struggled between sleep and

spk_0 exercise sleep is a very very close second and I see and I had a choose one you said go

spk_0 to your head I know it's so here here's more why I struggle with this okay sleep it feels like

spk_0 it's more of the uh it's necessary but not sufficient right so okay if you if you're not getting

spk_0 good sleep then probably nothing else is gonna matter okay okay but if you are getting good sleep

spk_0 that's not enough yeah yeah like it's a baseline yeah so like it's a little bit of a different

spk_0 situation whereas I totally agree with you on the exercise point on the physical activity point

spk_0 not only are you building that that physical resilience you know all train your own brain

spk_0 developing your body developing your nervous system but you are getting those psychological reps as

spk_0 well like you were training yourself to be a person who does hard things and you are teaching

spk_0 yourself to stay with the suckage for long periods of time and I just think that that is

spk_0 that is so psychologically useful so I think I agree with you yeah and but it's maybe you

spk_0 convinced me because when I walked in here today I was thinking I'm like man if you're not getting

spk_0 good sleep then you're like I would agree to if I had to choose though like I said I'd pick the

spk_0 physical activity one of them physical activity is shown to get you better sleep as well so that is

spk_0 true how struggling with sleep go ahead start with the exercise and maybe you'll get better sleep too

spk_0 you convinced me to hide you convince usually I would say sleep is a foundation for like it's it is

spk_0 the foundation for so much of your mental health just in general so for sure yes it's very very

spk_0 important when we're talking specifically about resilience though yeah I think the the a high

spk_0 impact activity is just more physical activity yeah yeah okay on the psychological side I went

spk_0 back and forth between we talked about five different mindsets and we also talked about kind

spk_0 of some sub practices right or mindsets related to each of those five I went trying to pick just one

spk_0 yeah I went back and forth between two of them multiple times this morning and I can't escape

spk_0 I ultimately think it mode the 80-20 really comes down to that first mindset is believing that

spk_0 you are capable of doing that in the in the psychological literature it's known as self efficacy

spk_0 it's basically a belief in your own capability or your own adaptability and it just like

spk_0 the results are just so stark and I do think all the other mindsets are super important I do

spk_0 think the cognitive reopraisals are super important I think the enforced cheerfulness is super important

spk_0 but it's funny because I feel like if you don't actually believe that you're capable of doing

spk_0 the thing you want to do then none of that other stuff is really going to matter like or you're

spk_0 not even going to have an opportunity to really use it right because you're just you're going to

spk_0 feel unmotivated from the start so I don't know that's kind of where I landed that feels just so

spk_0 foundational to me that if that's not there like nothing else really works but I don't know I might

spk_0 be able to be talked into the cognitive reopraisal piece well go case so I think if you guess if you're

spk_0 not somebody who does have a lot of self efficacy I think you first needs the cognitive flexibility

spk_0 first you need the cognitive reopraisal to be able to get there yeah that's one way to look at it

spk_0 anyway yeah the flexibility though I think just in general is kind of the defining feature of

spk_0 resilience it's not toughness it's not stoic you know just taking whatever comes at you like with

spk_0 you know you got a bulletproof vest or whatever it's the flexibility to change and adapt

spk_0 and cognitively that's you know we saw the physiology too heart rate variability for example

spk_0 yeah HPA axis your stress response flexibility all of that I think the same is true for

spk_0 psychology as well so yes I agree like self efficacy you won't try to do something if you don't

spk_0 believe you can do it absolutely it feels like a chicken in the egg thing it is a super chicken

spk_0 in the egg thing and that's what I was trying to think of is like how do you get there if you're not

spk_0 yeah already so it's you need some cognitive flexibility to have the belief that you can do something

spk_0 difficult but you also need the belief that you can do something difficult to exercise the cognitive

spk_0 flexibility right right manage the setbacks and challenges like I'm with it we didn't bring this

spk_0 up but like Jacko Willink has that you know that good yeah it's good like something bad happens good

spk_0 yeah good you know we wife leaves you good yeah you know with him we're he was a Navy CEO you know like

spk_0 oh the the mission got delayed good I have another data prepared for you know that that's a

spk_0 cognitive it's like a little tool yeah it's a cool little tool you can do you can use you know oh

spk_0 I got injured well good I can get catch up on my rest or all of that that kind of stuff is

spk_0 counter argument okay okay if you don't believe you're capable of doing the mission in the first

spk_0 place that is a chicken in the egg thing how can you reappraise it it's a chance being something good

spk_0 maybe you have to practice both at the same time yeah maybe they come together yeah I

spk_0 100% agree that like you have to develop some self-efficacy around this but I just don't know like

spk_0 I think that's part of the process of becoming resilient yeah is developing that self-efficacy and so

spk_0 developing a cognitive reappraisal cognitive flexibility around challenge in your life

spk_0 seeing it as something different because if you're just the type of person who goes oh my life

spk_0 stuff every time something bad happens my life sucks this sucks or I can you know I got the

spk_0 raw end of the deal every time this and that the thing you have to do it very first just catch

spk_0 yourself right there it's a very CBT thing right catch yourself right there and say okay hold on

spk_0 this presents a it's a challenge not not like a a handicap that I have for us so I see what you're

spk_0 saying it is very much it's chicken in the egg thing I do think you're I was just as you were talking

spk_0 I was thinking about CBT as well because self the self-efficacy piece for me I think the way you get

spk_0 that outside of cognitive reappraisal is stacking evidence right it's like it the way you believe

spk_0 you can do something is you stack evidence that you can do things similar to it and I do think

spk_0 this is kind of where that that that triangle and CBT comes in of like this kind of cycle of

spk_0 thought to behavior to emotion to thought to behavior to emotion so like if you can you can find

spk_0 something small that you can that feels that you do feel like you're capable of handling and you

spk_0 start there and then you handle it that builds a little bit of evidence for yourself okay like okay

spk_0 I'm the type of person that can handle something like this and then you try something a little bit

spk_0 harder and then you get that evidence and you just start stacking evidence that like the cognitive

spk_0 reappraisal gets easier with each wrong okay I can't like that and you're practicing it as you go

spk_0 okay okay so you start small I think you're I think you're absolutely right like just the other day

spk_0 you know I got on playing the other day and there were there was a mom and her sister and then

spk_0 two kids that she had and they screamed for the last 45 minutes right right this was this must

spk_0 be a mundane example and yeah usually what I do is put the headphones on and be like oh my god

spk_0 but I was just like I'm just gonna take this yeah you're gonna raw you're gonna raw dog

spk_0 the screaming kids I just close my eyes and I was like I'm not gonna get up set or anything I felt

spk_0 bad for the mom at the end of it too she was crying herself so yeah I'm just saying but like

spk_0 something even as mundane as that that's something that's something Goggin's

spk_0 would do you be like oh it's a crying baby on the plane I'm gonna listen to it yeah

spk_0 give me that pain I freed off that pain yeah yeah absolutely all right the social piece okay so I

spk_0 feel like I feel like we didn't we didn't land on like super tangible advice for people on

spk_0 the social piece well I don't I like it is it's it's hard to give tangible advice around that I

spk_0 think I honestly as we were going through that section I kept thinking to myself this is just a

spk_0 relationship like to give advice on this we we would have to do a relationship episode right or you'd

spk_0 have to do a friendship episode which is coming up which is coming up so yeah it is hard to give

spk_0 very tangible advice on like how to make friends or make better friends or make sure you have

spk_0 good friendships like those those are all very deep complex subjects yeah my advice is take the next

spk_0 one to three years and like focus on one to three good relationships yeah good friendships in your

spk_0 life I the quality over quantity we mentioned that quality over quantity I I guess if there's an 80-20

spk_0 around it is that I would say so I would say like one really good friend yeah probably worth a lot

spk_0 more than like half a dozen ten yeah yeah a million acquaintances is honestly at that point yeah so

spk_0 um like if you don't have that in your life um yeah I do feel like that is that that should

spk_0 probably be potentially be priority number one yeah yeah yeah it's just getting out meeting people

spk_0 getting close to people and also I would I would add to that getting away from toxic people you

spk_0 know if you you can have good people in your life but if you have somebody in your life who is

spk_0 just berating you completely unsupportive this is the interesting that we didn't really talk

spk_0 about this but like talking about those five mindsets if you're surrounded by people who don't have

spk_0 those five mindsets who if you if you're spending most of your time with somebody who has no self

spk_0 efficacy can't cognitively re-apprise situations can't enforce cheerfulness on themselves can't narrow

spk_0 their focus to what's most important in front of them uh it's gonna be extremely hard for you to do

spk_0 those things as well yeah so I would almost equal weighting I would put finding one person who has

spk_0 these mindsets as well as getting away from people who don't have those mindsets right right yeah

spk_0 and I mean I think two is reaching out to people and like offering help offering to help make them

spk_0 more resilient yeah I think is actually a really good way to counter intuitive way to yeah to foster

spk_0 it yeah to foster it in your in your own life and and also build relationship to a resilient

spk_0 relationships at the same time so yeah my I would agree with that it's it's a lot more complex one

spk_0 again like we mentioned this it just takes a lot of time it takes I think people underestimate

spk_0 they're like well I don't have any friends like and I go to these events or whatever it is it's like

spk_0 you're not gonna make a friend in a weekend yeah you know it we're gonna get much deeper into that

spk_0 yeah we'll get into that in next month's episode um but yeah uh just a little as a little teaser

spk_0 right um it's it's almost impossible to to make a friend in a day like yeah it it just doesn't

spk_0 really happen and you can't you you cannot be the most resilient version of yourself without other

spk_0 people I just want to put that like that this is something you just have to think about and you just

spk_0 it's yeah it's part of life okay so our 80-20 exercise with sleep as a close runner up

spk_0 um for mindsets it sounds like stacking evidence is kind of like where we landed I think so I think

spk_0 I think you're right start small um and and workout kind of that that self efficacy muscle I guess

spk_0 yeah and and go the small ways work up the ladder yeah yeah and then on the third one is

spk_0 find either one really good friend or get away from somebody who is super toxic right right

spk_0 let's talk about trade-offs of resilience what what are you know we one of the things that we do

spk_0 here and then I talk about a lot my work is um it's easy to think about all the benefits of something

spk_0 we rarely think about the cost of something or the downsides of something so um this is where we

spk_0 discuss what are the potential downsides of becoming an extremely resilient person one I thought

spk_0 of is now like once you get to a point where you are resilient people see you as like a

spk_0 a competent resilient person now you're the competent resilient person that people come to a lot

spk_0 yeah um and so you know you get to putting out a lot of fires or your scene is like this rock or

spk_0 whatever right it there is more responsibility put on you when you when you get this part of your

spk_0 life kind of figured out right we kind of talked about this in procrastination episode as well

spk_0 right when you get good at doing things people just give you more things to do yeah same thing with

spk_0 resilience I think you got a um you know there's a there's an image that develops a view in other

spk_0 people's minds and um kind of feel like you have to live up to that a lot yeah it's also a bit ironic

spk_0 like you you see this dynamic in a lot of families like there'll be one person who's like

spk_0 very strong and reliable and and then a bunch of people in the family who are not strong or

spk_0 reliable and so the strong reliable person keeps taking on all of the burdens of the people in the

spk_0 family which then makes them stronger and stronger and stronger because as we talk about resilience

spk_0 is like a muscle you get better at it things get easier you you you get become more adaptable

spk_0 and meanwhile all the people in the family are not developing that muscle and so you

spk_0 you can see situations where being the strong resilient one you enable a lot of situations I

spk_0 think this probably happens at a lot of relationships as well um if you're always the rock who's

spk_0 their supporting or if you're always the breadwinner who's like paying the bills and uh covering

spk_0 for your deadbeat partner like it's it's a reinforcing dynamic in a very subtle way yeah and then

spk_0 in a kind of an ironic way as well you end up maybe long term being less resilient because

spk_0 you're taking care of everybody else's problems and not your own you know what I mean there's kind

spk_0 of like you said the enabling part yeah you end up kind of ignoring your own your own shit I guess

spk_0 and yeah you know that one that I will definitely speak to that's on our list is a hyper

spk_0 independence yeah yeah death of intimacy like this this definitely I've definitely felt this a

spk_0 little bit in my own life um I enjoy challenges I I actually really really enjoy challenging myself

spk_0 pushing myself doing difficult things um it is it has become a very core part of my identity

spk_0 the downside of that is that a lot of people aren't really up to come along right it's it's or

spk_0 you often end up kind of doing these things by yourself so um and it and it's not necessary it's not

spk_0 like I'm going out and running 600 miles like Yanis Corros or whatever right in some cases you know

spk_0 it's like starting a second business well now I'm like working 60 70 hours a week which means I'm

spk_0 not seeing friends I'm not seeing my wife as much I'm not talking to my parents as much um it could

spk_0 be something like so my wife and I we had a friend years ago who uh her marriage kind of fell

spk_0 apart I mean I'm sure there were many many reasons for this it wasn't just the Iron Man's fault but

spk_0 basically her husband started training for an Iron Man yeah and for anybody who's trained for an

spk_0 Iron Man like you are you are sitting on a bike like six hours a day yeah every day yeah so this

spk_0 guy was waking up at 3 30 in the morning to go bike for two or three hours um running

spk_0 a marathon every weekend you know just all this crazy stuff basically he was never home

spk_0 never home never around never helping with the kids never helping with the house and uh you know

spk_0 after six or 12 months like basically the marriage fell apart she's like where the fuck are you

spk_0 dude and you know he's he's out like running biking a hundred miles so if you do become a person

spk_0 who enjoys challenges and enjoys pushing yourself and testing yourself uh you do need to be careful

spk_0 because it is kind of easy to get way out on the front here by yourself right right and yeah

spk_0 and forget that everybody else is left behind right well one of those another risk of that too

spk_0 is like losing empathy I think yes this is definitely one thing um you see if you if you get to a point

spk_0 where you're like I can handle this part and this is the other tough thing whatever then you start

spk_0 looking around like why is everyone else so such a was about this right it's like people in your

spk_0 family too even might yeah again there's orchids there's dandelions yeah right and so some people don't

spk_0 have like if you've turned yourself into a dandelion in one area of your life another thing too maybe

spk_0 we should have highlighted throughout the episode is that just because you're resilient and one domain

spk_0 doesn't mean you're resilient and all the others right but uh so like having a little empathy along

spk_0 the way for other people who might not be as resilient of you in one particular way um

spk_0 this kind of it all kind of ties back into the community thing too like like still being resilient

spk_0 but still like having a space for the community your community within that space is super important and

spk_0 you know like like you're talking about though with the um like the hyperindependence

spk_0 when I've you know I'm you mentioned this I'm thinking about like kind of getting into more

spk_0 endurance stuff and I'm the trade-offs are already like boiling my mind my mind here I'm like

spk_0 this is gonna be a lot of time I'm gonna have to take out um there's a few relationships that are

spk_0 probably gonna like I'm not gonna be able to spend a time as much time on with all of that um and

spk_0 then I gotta also remember that not all of those people are training for whatever endurance thing I'm

spk_0 gonna be doing yeah and that's not their life and there it's not it's not my world and they

spk_0 are just living in it so the empathy part I think is really important too and the thing you don't

spk_0 think about two with stuff like that and this is true and it's not just this was so this is why I

spk_0 I was trained for a marathon last year and I actually stopped right uh in part of it most of it

spk_0 was for this reason yeah I was just never home yeah always tired never had free time to do anything

spk_0 else see anybody else uh and but part of that's true as well like with working too much or traveling

spk_0 too much or pushing yourself too much like I I'm definitely feeling that this year to a certain

spk_0 extent where you know I'll come home some days from you know I'll work through a weekend and then

spk_0 I get to Tuesday or Wednesday and I'm just like my brain is fried I I don't have any energy to talk

spk_0 to anybody to do anything to hang out with my wife like I just I just want to like be a vegetable

spk_0 on the couch uh the entire night so yeah that's the recovery side of that is and is an issue as well um

spk_0 well that's actually one of my head it was like the physical wear and tear by would put mental wear

spk_0 and tear and tear and tear and tear and tear and tear and tear and tear and tear and tear and tear and tear.

spk_0 Once you once you figure out that you can do hard things you're like I'm going to push this a little bit more

spk_0 you you're you're you're you're what you just mentioned is that I've seen you do that over and over and over

spk_0 I've got a my list uh you can be be be careful of becoming addicted to it yeah yeah because I do think

spk_0 once you start once you do build that self efficacy of like I am a person who can do hard things

spk_0 and you build up all that evidence of consistently accomplishing hard things

spk_0 there's a rush that comes with.

spk_0 There's a real high that you get when you do something very difficult.

spk_0 And you can get hooked on it.

spk_0 There's a masochism that can be a little bit, you know, talk about Gog and see.

spk_0 Yeah, definitely.

spk_0 Masochist.

spk_0 Like, he's like, he's like, he has no cartilage in his knees.

spk_0 I saw there's a video of Ronnie Coleman who's the eight-time Missour Olympia.

spk_0 I think probably the largest Missour Olympia ever.

spk_0 I mean, just an absolute freak of a bodybuilder, one of the greatest bodybuilders ever.

spk_0 And the dude can barely walk now.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 He's had hip replacements, knee replacements.

spk_0 He has to walk with crutches.

spk_0 I think he's like, I think he's in his 50s now.

spk_0 But I mean, he's probably as hobbled as your average 80-year-old.

spk_0 And the fucked up thing is the dude is still going to the gym.

spk_0 And he's like, still trying to lift heavy shit.

spk_0

spk_0 And it just, so at a certain point, it can become an addiction.

spk_0 And you have to be careful.

spk_0 You have to know when to pull yourself back and when to chill out.

spk_0 No, for sure.

spk_0 When to let the inner bitch take over as Gog gets to say,

spk_0 I would argue the inner bitch should take over occasionally.

spk_0 Right.

spk_0 I, you know, we kind of mentioned this, I guess, already too, but the loss,

spk_0 you're, this is all related, I guess, but the loss of community

spk_0 that you might have around this.

spk_0 I guess you kind of, you kind of already touched on this.

spk_0 But like, there are some of those codependent relationships that you might have.

spk_0 Where you, if you start like, no, I'm going to take this over.

spk_0 Well, somebody else was, that was their thing they latched on.

spk_0 And they kind of, they got off a little bit on taking care of you in that situation.

spk_0 But don't worry about it.

spk_0 You, you sit over here, I'll take care of this.

spk_0 You have this codependent thing going on.

spk_0 Yeah.

spk_0 And you decide, now I'm going to, I'm going to do this for my

spk_0 self now.

spk_0 And I'm going to be the one who takes care of it and be the resilient one here.

spk_0 That might not sit well with him.

spk_0 That, that was part of, that was, they got, they got a little bit of

spk_0 whatever out of it, an ego boost or they didn't have to take your own problems

spk_0 because they're taking care of yours.

spk_0 That codependence, it might be a little bit of a destabilizing factor in your relationships.

spk_0 It could.

spk_0 I would argue it's probably a good thing.

spk_0 That's probably a good thing.

spk_0 You're right.

spk_0 But when you're going through it, I'm just saying like, you might,

spk_0 yes, there might be some fireworks and some of your relationships.

spk_0 At some point, we will definitely do an episode on

spk_0 codependent or toxic relationships.

spk_0 And we will talk about the roller coaster, the, the, the,

spk_0 the high upsides and downside, low downsides of exiting one of those relationships.

spk_0 But yeah, it can be very destabilized and they can be very like emotionally tumultuous to,

spk_0 to become self-reliant in a lot of ways.

spk_0 Like if you've, if you have built your entire kind of emotional support network,

spk_0 it's kind of based off of you being the weak one who always needs help.

spk_0 As soon as you stop being that weak one, it is going to destabilize a lot of people,

spk_0 a lot of the relationships that you have and how people around you see you.

spk_0 I would argue that the people who genuinely care about you and are there for the right reasons

spk_0 will be happy and supportive and proud of you.

spk_0

spk_0 We're not going to change our fucking relief.

spk_0 And, and then the people who get upset by it are probably the people that weren't there for

spk_0 the right reason. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Awesome. Anything else?

spk_0 Or should we close it out with some personal thoughts?

spk_0 I think we should, yeah, I think I'm ready. We can close it out.

spk_0 What, what would you say you learned in the process of making this episode?

spk_0 I, anything you would apply to your own life.

spk_0 Yeah. I mean, I, I really do think that the, the, the, um, environmental fit stuff,

spk_0 the orchid and dandelion stuff.

spk_0 I guess I kind of, I kind of knew a little bit about that, but

spk_0 having the empathy for some people in certain situations where I have been a lot, I have been one

spk_0 of those people who was like, you like toughen up. Yeah. Yeah. Just toughen the fuck up.

spk_0 That's what resilience is. It's just hard in the fuck up and get over it and, you know,

spk_0 that is not helpful. It's not, it's not helpful for anyone.

spk_0 I think that, um, if we can build systems, you can build workplaces, we build schools,

spk_0 we build a society that's more just, um, accepting and, and, uh, flexible,

spk_0 right? It's self. It's more resilient society itself for those kinds of people.

spk_0 Um, and instead of just saying there's only one way to be resilient. Yeah.

spk_0 I think that for me anyway, that was very much like, oh, uh, like I just mentioned, just

spk_0 minute ago too, is that just because you're resilient in one area, it doesn't mean you aren't

spk_0 another. And I think that's where those orchids kind of come in too. It's like, they might actually be

spk_0 really well suited to like one specific thing and we shouldn't let them be. Yeah. Um, so I don't

spk_0 know, I think I have a lot more empathy for that sort of thing and it's not anymore, you know,

spk_0 I would say for me, it was the two mindsets, the, you know, believe that anything's possible and

spk_0 then the enforced yearfulness. I think it was kind of the revelation that, uh, that, that is actually

spk_0 very, very good advice in the right context. You know, as we talked about, I, I spent most of my

spk_0 career kind of trashing that advice of like, Hey man, if shit sucks, like admitted sucks, you don't

spk_0 have to be happy all the time. You know, don't be delusional. Don't tell yourself that you're going

spk_0 to be the fucking queen of England just because you, you tell yourself you look in the mirror and

spk_0 you can tell yourself you're the queen of England. Like it's so much of my career has been built

spk_0 around bringing realism into self-help and self-help has, uh, violated, like a lot of these basic

spk_0 realistic principles in so many ways that I, I think I probably wrote off those, the power of

spk_0 those two mindsets, uh, more than I should have. And what I realized now is that, yeah, if you're not

spk_0 struggling with anything, if you're just kind of like being lazy and comfortable and like wishing

spk_0 you had, uh, whatever, like, a horse and carriage to come pick you up every morning. Like, yeah,

spk_0 that's terrible advice. So believe you're capable of anything. But like if you're actually going

spk_0 through shit, if you're actually doing something extremely hard, if you're actually suffering,

spk_0 both the, the self-efficacy piece, like just believing that you're a person who's capable of

spk_0 handling this and the enforced cheerfulness. I love the word enforced, enforced cheerfulness of like,

spk_0 yeah, you know it sucks. You know it sucks. There's an acknowledgement there. Yeah. Yes. You know

spk_0 it sucks. You know you're miserable. You know you might not make it, but fuck it. Let's make a

spk_0 joke about it anyway. Like I, I really love that. And so yeah, those are the two, I guess those

spk_0 are kind of the two shifts and perspective that I took, took from doing this. There's the

spk_0 context is everything I think you're right. And I think the, the difference is the passivity versus

spk_0 the active nature of it. Like if you're just passively trying to, you know, uh, manifest these

spk_0 things into your life, not happening. Yeah. But if you're actively going through some shit,

spk_0 that's when it, that's when it actually works. Yes. Yeah. All right. Well, we're resilient now. We are,

spk_0 I'm glad we got that figured out. Out of the next one. Just as a reminder to everybody,

spk_0 if you want to start implementing all this information into your life, please join us at the

spk_0 solve membership. We classify everything. We create exercises for people. And then we hold

spk_0 you accountable to actually going out in the world and doing it. Go to membership.solvepodcast.com.

spk_0 If you want to join and get involved, uh, and we will be back in two weeks with an episode on

spk_0 stoicism, it's going to be a, a little bit of an experimental format. It'll be the first time that

spk_0 we've, we've had a guest on solve. We're not interviewing Ryan. Basically, uh, we're basically

spk_0 inviting Ryan holiday to sit in and do this format with us. Uh, and Ryan has been literally

spk_0 studying stoicism his entire life. I think he's written nine books or 11 books on stoicism at this

spk_0 point. Um, he is, he knows everything there is to know about the stoics. So, uh, I'm very excited,

spk_0 sit down and, and talk with him and, and hear all of the amazing stories and wisdom that he has.

spk_0 And then we will be back in November with an episode about friendship. Thank you for sticking

spk_0 with us for being so resilient to listen to us for four hours in change. It takes a lot of

spk_0 resilience to get this far into a solved episode. Um, again, if you love the podcast, please like and

spk_0 subscribe. Follow us on any platform. Leave a review. It's the best thing you can do for us. Um,

spk_0 and feel free to reach out. We are at, uh, solvepodcast.com. Shoot us an email. Let us know what you'd like to

spk_0 see. And we will be back a couple weeks.

How to Become Resilient

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